there goes another myth Obama will use LIncoln's bible

[noswad]

President-elect Barack Obama will take the oath of office using the same Bible upon which President Lincoln was sworn in at his first inauguration. Obama will be the first President sworn in using the Lincoln Bible since its initial use in 1861.
"President-elect Obama is deeply honored that the Library of Congress has made the Lincoln Bible available for use during his swearing-in," said…


http://buzz.yahoo.com/article/1:huffington_post:325c08d5ef263c3c4c0528d0eac43c54;_ylt=AllbM9dMuh4YL6IHjJCMnyGPeZ94



course you Obama haters will probably claim he is going to hide the Koran somewhere inside it or something :rolleyes:

[Sully]

What a hypocrite.
I can't afford to rent the Lincoln Bible to pray on Christmas eve...
...and he's just flaunting his ability to use it. Guy has no idea.

[Donger]

I wonder whose idea this was?

[beer bacon]

Wait...so you're saying Lincoln was a secret mooslim?

[Sully]

Wait...so you're saying Lincoln was a secret mooslim?

You had to suspect...with the beard, and all.

[Donger]

Pretty cocky of Obama, actually. He's also going to follow the same train route that Lincoln took on his way to DC?

Why?

[beer bacon]

Pretty cocky of Obama, actually. He's also going to follow the same train route that Lincoln took on his way to DC?

Why?

Because you touch yourself at night.

[banyon]

Pretty cocky of Obama, actually. He's also going to follow the same train route that Lincoln took on his way to DC?

Why?

Because having the descendant of the people Lincoln worked to free take the highest office in the land is an historic occasion? Just a guess.

[Donger]

Because having the descendant of the people Lincoln worked to free take the highest office in the land is an historic occasion? Just a guess.

His Dad was from Kenya, wasn't he?

[banyon]

His Dad was from Kenya, wasn't he?

So were many of the slaves.

[Donger]

So were many of the slaves.

Not to be callous, but why does that have any bearing whatsoever with this? Obama is not descended from slaves as far as I know.

[banyon]

Not to be callous, but why does that have any bearing whatsoever with this?

Because it is a racial issue and he represents the sub-group of the minority that was historically oppressed in our country.

Are you as familiar with his children and wife's ancestry?

[Donger]

Because it is a racial issue and he represents the sub-group of the minority that was historically oppressed in our country.

Are you as familiar with his children and wife's ancestry?

No, I am not.

[banyon]

No, I am not.

Michelle Obama's family: From slavery to White House
A historical line can be drawn from South Carolina's Low Country cabins to Michelle Obama, charting an American family's improbable journey through slavery, segregation, the civil-rights movement and a historic presidential election.

By Dahleen Glanton and Stacy St. Clair

Chicago Tribune

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2008/12/03/2008466270.jpg
When Michelle Obama moves into the White House — a mansion built partially by slaves — she will embark upon a life her great-great-grandfather, who was a slave, never could have envisioned for her.


ALEX GARCIA / MCCLATCHY NEWSPAPERS

Jim Robinson, Michelle Obama's great-great-grandfather, probably lived in one of the slave cabins, now restored, at the Friendfield Plantation in Georgetown, S.C.

President-elect Obama and his wife, Michelle, pictured with President Bush and first lady Laura Bush last month, will move into the White House in January.


A family's journey

Jim Robinson: born about 1850, lived as a slave.
Fraser Robinson: born 1884.

Fraser Robinson Jr.: born 1912.

Fraser Robinson III: born 1935.

Michelle Obama: born 1964, will be America's next first lady
GEORGETOWN, S.C. —

Tiny wooden cabins line the dirt road once known as Slave Street as it winds through Friendfield Plantation.

More than 200 slaves lived in the whitewashed shacks in the early 1800s, and some of their descendants remained for more than 100 years after the Civil War. The last tenants abandoned the hovels about 30 years ago, and even they would have struggled to imagine a distant daughter of the plantation one day calling the White House home.

But a historical line can be drawn from these Low Country cabins to Michelle Obama, charting an American family's improbable journey through slavery, segregation, the civil-rights movement and a historic presidential election.

Their documented passage begins with Jim Robinson, Michelle Obama's great-great-grandfather, who was born about 1850 and lived as a slave, at least until the Civil War, on the sprawling rice plantation. Records show he remained on the estate after the war, working as a sharecropper and living in the old slave quarters with his wife, Louiser, and their children. He could neither read nor write, according to the 1880 census.

Robinson would be the last illiterate branch of Michelle Obama's family tree.

Census records show each generation of Robinsons became more educated than the last, with Michelle Obama eventually earning degrees from Princeton University and Harvard Law School. Her older brother, Craig, also earned an Ivy League education.

Barack Obama's campaign hired genealogists to research the family's roots at the onset of his presidential bid, but aides largely have kept the findings secret. Genealogists at Lowcountry Africana, a research center at the University of South Florida in Tampa, scoured documents to put together a 120-page report, said project director Toni Carrier. She said the center signed a confidentiality agreement and is not allowed to disclose the findings publicly.

However, in his now-famous speech on race during the primary, Barack Obama, whose father was from Kenya, stated he was "married to a black American who carries within her the blood of slaves and slave owners."

Obama aides refused to discuss the report or allow Michelle Obama to be interviewed about her ancestry. She has said she knew little about her family tree before the campaign, but census reports, property records and other historical documents show her paternal ancestors bore witness to one of the most shameful chapters in U.S. history.

In January, when the Obamas move into the White House — a mansion built partially by slaves — as the country's first African-American first family, Michelle Obama will embark upon a life her great-great-grandfather never could have envisioned.

Living in slave shacks

Little is known about Jim Robinson's life at the Friendfield Plantation, beyond that he worked in the riverfront rice fields after the Civil War. Local historians don't know how or when he came to Friendfield, but census records indicate both his parents were born in South Carolina. The coastal Carolina city often is referred to as the African-American Ellis Island because of the many slave ships that docked along its shores.

A map from the early 1870s, when Robinson was living on the plantation, shows three parallel rows of slave cabins, each with 10 to 13 buildings along Slave Street. By 1911, only 14 were standing.

Five single cabins remain today. With their massive fireplaces and wood-plank walls, each tells a story about slave life on the plantation.

The small shacks, only 19 feet deep, housed several families at once, said Ed Carter, who oversees the property. Large stone fireplaces were used for cooking and heating. Attic space beneath the gable roof offered a place for extra people to sleep.

The plantation's former owner, Francis Withers, built a "meeting house" for slaves on the estate before 1841, and the South Carolina Conference of the Methodist Episcopal Church assigned a preacher there. A fire destroyed the church in 1940.

By the time Withers died in 1847, the family had expanded Friendfield to include six plantations and more than 500 slaves. At the height of the rice trade, Friendfield was one of the most lucrative plantations in the area, Carter said.

In his will, Withers, educated at Harvard University, provided for the care of his slaves, including the upkeep of the church and a salary for the preacher. He also requested his slaves be treated with "great kindness and be fed and clothed."

He left $10,000 to purchase more slaves to work the plantation and provided financial incentives for his surviving relatives to retain his "Friendfield gang of slaves" as a group and not break up families.

Respect for learning

The plantation's prosperity faded after the Civil War, and the family began selling off the property in 1879, according to land records. Jim Robinson, like many former slaves, continued to live on the farm.

It's unclear when he died, but local historians think he is buried in an unmarked grave in a slave cemetery that overlooks the old rice fields on the edges of Whites Creek.

Among Jim Robinson's surviving children was Fraser Robinson, Michelle Obama's great-grandfather. Born in 1884, he went to work as a houseboy for a local family before his 16th birthday. Census records show he was illiterate as a teen but had learned to read and write by the time he had children.

As an adult, he worked as a lumber-mill laborer, shoe repairman and newspaper salesman. He registered for the draft during World War I but was turned down because he had lost his left arm, military records show.

Fraser Robinson married a local woman named Rose Ella Cohen and had at least six children. Described by a family friend as an intelligent man who wanted his children to be well-read, he always brought home his extra copies of the "Palmetto Leader and Grit," a black newspaper that was popular in rural communities across the country.

"He used to make his children read those newspapers," said Margretta Dunmore Knox, who still lives in Georgetown and attended the same church as the Robinsons. "Maybe that's how they became so smart."

His eldest son, Fraser Jr., was born in 1912 and graduated from high school. Census records from 1930 show that 18-year-old Fraser Jr. was living at home and working at a sawmill after earning his diploma.

At the time, Georgetown, a coastal town about an hour's drive north of Charleston and the state's third-oldest city, was split along racial lines. Basic human rights that blacks had known after the Reconstruction era disappeared as the Deep South sank into the Depression and segregationist ways.

The power of "Enough"

As Georgetown's economy crumbled, Fraser Jr. headed north to Chicago in search of employment. There, he met and married LaVaughn Johnson. Their son Fraser Robinson III — Michelle Obama's father — was born in 1935.

Although they never attended college, Fraser III and his wife, Marian, made education a top priority for their two children. Both would attend Princeton and earn postgraduate degrees from prestigious universities.

Fraser and LaVaughn Robinson lived on the South Side of Chicago for part of Michelle's childhood, before retiring and moving south. After returning to Georgetown, the couple joined the AME Bethel Church, founded by freed slaves in 1865 and the oldest black church in the city. The couple sang in the choir and built a large circle of friends, Knox said.

Michelle Obama returned to the same church in January while campaigning for her husband in the South Carolina presidential primary. Addressing a packed audience that included at least 30 descendants of Jim Robinson, Obama talked about the need for change in the confident voice of a distant daughter of slavery.

"Things get better when regular folks take action to make change happen from the bottom up," she said. "Every major historical moment in our time, it has been made by folks who said, 'Enough,' and they banded together to move this country forward — and now is one of those times."

Copyright © 2008 The Seattle Times Company

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2008466925_obamaslavery04.html

[Donger]

She wasn't elected and isn't taking the oath of office.

[Donger]

"Barack Obama's campaign hired genealogists to research the family's roots at the onset of his presidential bid, but aides largely have kept the findings secret. Genealogists at Lowcountry Africana, a research center at the University of South Florida in Tampa, scoured documents to put together a 120-page report, said project director Toni Carrier. She said the center signed a confidentiality agreement and is not allowed to disclose the findings publicly.

However, in his now-famous speech on race during the primary, Barack Obama, whose father was from Kenya, stated he was "married to a black American who carries within her the blood of slaves and slave owners."

Obama aides refused to discuss the report or allow Michelle Obama to be interviewed about her ancestry. She has said she knew little about her family tree before the campaign, but census reports, property records and other historical documents show her paternal ancestors bore witness to one of the most shameful chapters in U.S. history."

That's just weird. Why wouldn't they release the results?

[BucEyedPea]

The so-called "Great Emancipator's" Bible?
Well that seems appropriate for our first black prez.

[banyon]

She wasn't elected and isn't taking the oath of office.

So, the racial thing has no importance, then. Is that really your position?

[banyon]

The so-called "Great Emancipator's" Bible?
Well that seems appropriate for our first black prez.

Oh, it's not for the reasons listed. It was because Obama is a secret rapist and he wants to swear in on the same Bible as the other Rapist president so he can get some sexual satisfaction from it.

[Donger]

So, the racial thing has no importance, then. Is that really your position?

I appreciate the historical first aspect of his being black, sure. Obama's also got some history of being somewhat dramatic. I'm not sure that the color of his skin justifies him using Lincoln's bible, however.

Doesn't he have his own?

[banyon]

I appreciate the historical first aspect of his being black, sure. Obama's also got some history of being somewhat dramatic. I'm not sure that the color of his skin justifies him using Lincoln's bible, however.

Doesn't he have his own?

It absoultely does. Do you think Lincoln would've have loaned it to him himself if he could?

To pretend that because a person's family wasn't directly oppressed, that the racial group that he is a part wasn't oppressed and he doesn't represent that group of people, is just silly, IMO.

[Iowanian]

I hope they avoid the Ford Theater for their afterparty.

[Donger]

It absoultely does. Do you think Lincoln would've have loaned it to him himself if he could?

To pretend that because a person's family wasn't directly oppressed, that the racial group that he is a part wasn't oppressed and he doesn't represent that group of people, is just silly, IMO.

No, I doubt that Lincoln would have. He was pretty racist, you know.

[Donger]

To pretend that because a person's family wasn't directly oppressed, that the racial group that he is a part wasn't oppressed and he doesn't represent that group of people, is just silly, IMO.

I'm not pretending anything.

[banyon]

I'm not pretending anything.

Keep telling yourself that. The vast majority of the public will continue to se it for what it is, as I first described, an historic occasion, despite your denials.

[Donger]

Keep telling yourself that. The vast majority of the public will continue to se it for what it is, as I first described, an historic occasion, despite your denials.

I wonder what people would think upon reading this?

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

[Donger]

Keep telling yourself that. The vast majority of the public will continue to se it for what it is, as I first described, an historic occasion, despite your denials.

It is an historic occasion. I already stated that. But, I doubt Lincoln would have approved.

[Iowanian]

This doesn't mean much to me, one way or another.

I can "get" the historical reason he'd think that was a good choice. Obama's all about the show and imagery.

[banyon]

I wonder what people would think upon reading this?

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

I'm familiar with that quote. He was a product of his times. And a politician. You know they're not to be trusted.

[Donger]

I'm familiar with that quote. He was a product of his times. And a politician. You know they're not to be trusted.

You asked. I answered.

[banyon]

It is an historic occasion. I already stated that. But, I doubt Lincoln would have approved.

Had you stated that in this thread subliminally, or did you mean in another thread?

[Donger]

Had you stated that in this thread subliminally, or did you mean in another thread?

No. Please see #20.

[banyon]

No. Please see #20.

Fair enough.

[Donger]

I wonder if Obama's people/himself are aware of Lincoln's racism?

[splatbass]

Pretty cocky of Obama, actually. He's also going to follow the same train route that Lincoln took on his way to DC?

Why?

Let's see...

1. Both started out in politics in Illinois.

2. Both started out in the Illinois legislature.

3. Both were elected to the U.S. Senate from Illinois.

4. Both were elected President while serving Illinois.

Maybe that could be why? :doh!:

If I, being from Missouri, had a political career that followed fellow Missourian Truman's I might think it was a good idea to give a tribute to Truman by using the same Bible he did. Sounds reasonable to me.

[triple]

frankly i'm shocked and offended that the bible is going to be involved at all. mr. obama should stop oppressing us by forcing us to casually view a religious text. placing his hand on it like it has some authority over his position and our government... it's a shocking repudiation of the church and state separation this country was founded upon!

[Adept Havelock]

frankly i'm shocked and offended that the bible is going to be involved at all. mr. obama should stop oppressing us by forcing us to casually view a religious text. placing his hand on it like it has some authority over his position and our government... it's a shocking repudiation of the church and state separation this country was founded upon!

Go ahead and be offended. I'm no believer, but it doesn't bother me. I seriously doubt it bothers the majority of non-believers, aside from IJH and a few evangelical athiests.

AFAICS, it's no different than if he decided to take the oath on a copy of tales by the Brothers Grimm. :p

I do find it rather amusing the campaign anticipated this line of attack, whether from militant non-believers, or folks like yourself attempting to play shts prayer. ;)


From the press release:

Though there is no constitutional requirement for the use of a Bible during the swearing-in, Presidents have traditionally used Bibles for the ceremony, choosing a volume with personal or historical significance.

LMAO

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[Donger]

Let's see...

1. Both started out in politics in Illinois.

2. Both started out in the Illinois legislature.

3. Both were elected to the U.S. Senate from Illinois.

4. Both were elected President while serving Illinois.

Maybe that could be why? :doh!:

If I, being from Missouri, had a political career that followed fellow Missourian Truman's I might think it was a good idea to give a tribute to Truman by using the same Bible he did. Sounds reasonable to me.

I don't believe that Lincoln ever served in the Senate, or was serving Illinois in 1860. I could be wrong, however. Reagan was actually born in Illinois.

[jAZ]

Pretty cocky of Obama, actually.
Why is it cocky?

[BigRedChief]

The more he conducts himself along the same path that Lincoln took when making decisions the better off we will be. 3 wars and the worst economy since the great depression I'd say grab as much karma of Lincoln as you can, he's gonna need it.

[Amnorix]

I don't believe that Lincoln ever served in the Senate, or was serving Illinois in 1860. I could be wrong, however. Reagan was actually born in Illinois.

I believe Lincoln served Illinois as a member of the House. IIRC, he lost a reelection bid (1858?) and wasn't serving at the time of the 1860 election.

What these petty details have to do with anything, however, I cannot fathom.

The greatest national politician to come from Illinois was Lincoln, who was also the Great Emancipator, etc. It is hard to fathom why Obama wouldn't want to use Lincoln's bible, nor what objection anyone could have to it.

[jAZ]

I believe Lincoln served Illinois as a member of the House. IIRC, he lost a reelection bid (1858?) and wasn't serving at the time of the 1860 election.

What these petty details have to do with anything, however, I cannot fathom.

The greatest national politician to come from Illinois was Lincoln, who was also the Great Emancipator, etc. It is hard to fathom why Obama wouldn't want to use Lincoln's bible, nor what objection anyone could have to it.
Donger is still working that old "uppity n*gger" angle.

[Donger]

I believe Lincoln served Illinois as a member of the House. IIRC, he lost a reelection bid (1858?) and wasn't serving at the time of the 1860 election.

What these petty details have to do with anything, however, I cannot fathom.

The greatest national politician to come from Illinois was Lincoln, who was also the Great Emancipator, etc. It is hard to fathom why Obama wouldn't want to use Lincoln's bible, nor what objection anyone could have to it.

I just find it amusing. Lincoln would have objected to Obama's being allowed to vote, let alone hold office.

[Donger]

Donger is still working that old "uppity n*gger" angle.

Never have, never will.

[jAZ]

Never have, never will.

Bullsh*t.

You were the person around here who pushed the "presumptuous" angle during the election.

[jAZ]

I just find it amusing. Lincoln would have objected to Obama's being allowed to vote, let alone hold office.

The amusing irony of it doesn't justify your "cocky" garbage.

[Donger]

Bullsh*t.

You were the person around here who pushed the "presumptuous" angle during the election.

Indeed, I was. That had nothing to do with the color of his skin, however.

[Donger]

The amusing irony of it doesn't justify your "cocky" garbage.

Really? You don't think that Obama is attempting to draw parallels between himself and Lincoln?

[jAZ]

Indeed, I was. That had nothing to do with the color of his skin, however.

It had to do with your efforts to join the chorus of (presumably) non-racist people (presumably) pushing racist rhetoric in order to affect public opinion in your preferred direction. So in that sense, race was merely a tool and not *the* issue at hand.

[banyon]

Really? You don't think that Obama is attempting to draw parallels between himself and Lincoln?


Obama isnt creating historical significance where it didn't exist previously, so no, he' not "drawing" the parallels.

Have you ever heard of a tribute or an homage? How do you know that's not what he is doing instead of saying "look at me"? Didn't you assume that?

[Amnorix]

I just find it amusing. Lincoln would have objected to Obama's being allowed to vote, let alone hold office.

:shrug: So would 99% of white men in America that were of Lincoln's age at that time period.

That doesn't change the fact that it is entirely appropriate for Obama to use Lincoln's bible.

[Donger]

It had to do with your efforts to join the chorus of (presumably) non-racist people (presumably) pushing racist rhetoric in order to affect public opinion in your preferred direction. So in that sense, race was merely a tool and not *the* issue at hand.

That's your opinion, and it's incorrect. I challenge you to find a single piece of evidence that even suggests I harbor any racist feelings, toward Obama or anyone else.

[Adept Havelock]

Donger is still working that old "uppity n*gger" angle.

If Donger actually is/was doing that, wouldn't it be the "Bloody Golliwogg" angle? :p

[Donger]

Obama isnt creating historical significance where it didn't exist previously, so no, he' not "drawing" the parallels.

Have you ever heard of a tribute or an homage? How do you know that's not what he is doing instead of saying "look at me"? Didn't you assume that?

I don't know why Obama is doing this. I haven't read anything other than he is honored to be allowed to use the book.

[Donger]

:shrug: So would 99% of white men in America that were of Lincoln's age at that time period.

That doesn't change the fact that it is entirely appropriate for Obama to use Lincoln's bible.

I haven't said that it's inappropriate. I've said that it is amusing.

[jAZ]

That's your opinion, and it's incorrect. I challenge you to find a single piece of evidence that even suggests I harbor any racist feelings, toward Obama or anyone else.

You don't read well, do you.

[Donger]

You don't read well, do you.

Yes, I do. What you wrote was incorrect.

[jAZ]

I don't know why Obama is doing this.
You should have said this initially, rather than try to convice people that he's doing it because he's being "cocky".

[dirk digler]

Why doesn't it surprise me that some people are so freaking petty when it comes to Obama. You act like he is going to be the first president to use someone else's bible.

Bush was sworn in with George Washington's bible

The ceremony, with the same 18th Century King James bible that was used to swear in first US President George Washington, took place outside Congress at noon

[Donger]

You should have said this initially, rather than try to convice people that he's doing it because he's being "cocky".

That's my opinion, yes. Unless and until Obama tells us why he is doing this, none of us know.

Including you.

[banyon]

I haven't said that it's inappropriate. I've said that it is amusing.

Yes, you did. That's whay "cocky" means "overly confident in an unmerited way". It has an undoubtedly negative connotation.

[jAZ]

Yes, I do. What you wrote was incorrect.

No you don't.

... your efforts to join the chorus of (presumably) non-racist people pushing racist rhetoric...

I challenge you to find a single piece of evidence that even suggests I harbor any racist feelings, toward Obama or anyone else.
I said "non-racist people". Pay attention.

[Donger]

No you don't.




I said "non-racist people". Pay attention.

Did you not write: "Donger is still working that old "uppity n*gger" angle."?

[Donger]

Yes, you did. That's whay "cocky" means "overly confident in an unmerited way". It has an undoubtedly negative connotation.

As I said, I didn't say inappropriate. Other than be elected, I fail to see why parallels should be drawn between Obama and Lincoln (if that is what he is attempting to achieve).

[jAZ]

Did you not write: "Donger is still working that old "uppity n*gger" angle."?

Yes, and I explained exactly what I mean by that. You don't have to be a racist to "work() that old 'uppity n*gger' angle." You just need to have a desire to exploit a society's racists and latent racim for your own gain.

[Donger]

Yes, and I explained exactly what I mean by that. You don't have to be a racist to "work() that old 'uppity n*gger' angle." You just need to have a desire to exploit societies racists and latent racim for your own gain.

How exactly did I do that?

[WilliamTheIrish]

Pretty cocky of Obama, actually. He's also going to follow the same train route that Lincoln took on his way to DC?

Why?

So it won't affect traffic in Dongver.

[jAZ]

How exactly did I do that?
Is there an echo in here?

Is this a groundhog thread?

The use of "cocky" and "presumtuous" rhetoric is a way of injecting the "uppity n*gger" imagery into the disucssion of Obama. That's where this discucssion started. You are smarter than to have to ask this.

[Donger]

Is there an echo in here?

Is this a groundhog thread?

The use of "cocky" and "presumtuous" rhetoric is a way of injecting the "uppity n*gger" imagery into the disucssion of Obama. That's where this discucssion started. You are smarter than to have to ask this.

Can one not say that Obama is being cocky and presumptuous without injecting his race?

[dirk digler]

Can one not say that Obama is being cocky and presumptuous without injecting his race?

What is cocky or presumptuous about using Lincoln's bible?

Was Bush cocky and presumptuous when he used George Washington's bible?

[Donger]

What is cocky or presumptuous about using Lincoln's bible?

Was Bush cocky and presumptuous when he used George Washington's bible?

I haven't said that Obama is being presumptuous by using Lincoln's bible. Depending on the reason behind using Lincoln's bible is, yes, I do think it is cocky. The same can be said of Bush using Washington's.

[dirk digler]

I haven't said that Obama is being presumptuous by using Lincoln's bible. Depending on the reason behind using Lincoln's bible is, yes, I do think it is cocky. The same can be said of Bush using Washington's.

What is so cocky about swearing in with another President's bible? From what I have read it is a fairly common practice.

Presidents are not constitutionally required to be sworn in using a Bible, though most do, Theodore Roosevelt being the most notable exception. George Washington's Bible has been a popular choice, used by Warren Harding, Dwight Eisenhower and George H. W. Bush. Other presidents have opted for Bibles that hold more personal significance, such as Bill Clinton's choice of his grandmother's Bible.

[jAZ]

Can one not say that Obama is being cocky and presumptuous without injecting his race?
Not a manipulative person who's working all the angles to affect a political outcome in their favor.

That's like assuming that this quote from Karl Rove wasn't deliberately crafted to achived the same outcome:

"Even if you never met him, you know this guy. He's the guy at the country club with the beautiful date, holding a martini and a cigarette that stands against the wall and makes snide comments about everyone who passes by."

[dirk digler]

Truman, Eisenhower and Nixon swore the oath on 2 bibles. Talk about cocky... :)

[Donger]

What is so cocky about swearing in with another President's bible? From what I have read it is a fairly common practice.

Again, it depends on the motivation. Is Obama attempting to draw parallels between himself and Lincoln? I don't know. But if he is, it's damn cocky.

[jAZ]

What is so cocky about swearing in with another President's bible? From what I have read it is a fairly common practice.

It's amazing how closely Donger and Denise resemble each other.

[Donger]

Not a manipulative person who's working all the angles to affect a political outcome in their favor.

That's like assuming that this quote from Karl Rove wasn't deliberately crafted to achived the same outcome:

"Even if you never met him, you know this guy. He's the guy at the country club with the beautiful date, holding a martini and a cigarette that stands against the wall and makes snide comments about everyone who passes by."

Race has nothing to do with it. I also don't see race at all in Rove's quote.

[dirk digler]

Again, it depends on the motivation. Is Obama attempting to draw parallels between himself and Lincoln? I don't know. But if he is, it's damn cocky.

How about this? WHO GIVES A SHIT

He won get over it

[dirk digler]

It's amazing how closely Donger and Denise resemble each other.

Donger is not nearly as bad as Denise is

[jAZ]

Is Obama attempting to draw parallels between himself and Lincoln? I don't know. But if he is, it's damn cocky.
That doesn't even make any sense. If he's doing anything of the sort, he's trying to use Lincoln imagery to ride the coat tails of his favorable legacy.

[Donger]

How about this? WHO GIVES A SHIT

He won get over it

I was "over it" the night of the election. Since he isn't POTUS yet, there really isn't much meat to discuss, so we are forced to play with the flotsam. Kind of like the Lounge during off-season.

I'd imagine that we'll have more substantive things to discuss when he's in office.

[dirk digler]

I was "over it" the night of the election. Since he isn't POTUS yet, there really isn't much meat to discuss, so we are forced to play with the flotsam. Kind of like the Lounge during off-season.

I'd imagine that we'll have more substantive things to discuss when he's in office.

So basically you don't care you are just trying to stir the pot.

[Donger]

That doesn't even make any sense. If he's doing anything of the sort, he's trying to use Lincoln imagery to ride the coat tails of his favorable legacy.

You don't know that. However, Obama has been willing to accept such parallels before. See JFK.

[Donger]

So basically you don't care you are just trying to stir the pot.

No, I do care. But this is not as important as, say, implementing socialized medicine.

[jAZ]

You don't know that. However, Obama has been willing to accept such parallels before. See JFK.

And you don't know that doing so is just "cocky". In fact, I'm almost certainly right, and you don't even consider that option with your "cocky" claim. You don't consider any number of alternately plausible (or like) moviations.

That fact goes a long way toward proving my point about your deliberate "uppity" motivations.

[dirk digler]

No, I do care. But this is not as important as, say, implementing socialized medicine.

So why do you care again? With all that is wrong in the world you think this is important?

[Donger]

And you don't know that doing so is just "cocky". In fact, I'm almost certainly right, and you don't even consider that option with your "cocky" claim. You don't consider any number of alternately plausible (or like) moviations.

That fact goes a long way toward proving my point about your deliberate "uppity" motivations.

No, I don't. As I said, it is my opinion, sans any Obama comment on the subject beyond what he has already said.

[Donger]

So why do you care again? With all that is wrong in the world you think this is important?

You may note that I didn't create this thread.

[dirk digler]

You may note that I didn't create this thread.

I know you didn't. The reason why this thread was created because people believed Obama was going to swear on the Koran and that is false.

[Donger]

I know you didn't. The reason why this thread was created because people believed Obama was going to swear on the Koran and that is false.

Why would he do that? He claims to be a Christian.

[Donger]

ROFL

[dirk digler]

Why would he do that? He claims to be a Christian.

That smear\rumor started because people believe he is a Muslim

[patteeu]

What an inflated ego this guy must have. It was bad enough when he fancied himself the new Reagan, but this Lincoln stuff (team of rivals, lincoln's bible, etc.) explores new self-delusion (of grandeur) territory if you ask me.

[jAZ]

He claims to be a Christian.
Jezez Kryst.

:shake:

[Donger]

Jezez Kryst.

:shake:

He does claim to be a Christian. Do you know otherwise?

[jAZ]

He does claim to be a Christian. Do you know otherwise?
I don't know how every other "Christian" on the face of the earth doesn't fit the same description.

[Donger]

I don't know how every other "Christian" on the face of the earth doesn't fit the same description.

Nor do I.

[jAZ]

Nor do I.

What about Jews?

[Ultra Peanut]

Oh sweet Donger and patteeu, you everloving fucktards. Never change.

Was Keith Ellison being cocky when he was sworn in on Thomas Jefferson's Koran?

[banyon]

What an inflated ego this guy must have. It was bad enough when he fancied himself the new Reagan, but this Lincoln stuff (team of rivals, lincoln's bible, etc.) explores new self-delusion (of grandeur) territory if you ask me.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Donger. How do you know that it's not a tribute?

[Donger]

What about Jews?

Same.

[Ultra Peanut]

I'll ask you the same question I asked Donger. How do you know that it's not a tribute?Because Obama is arrogant because he is arrogant and that is why he is arrogant.

And presumptuous.

P.S. Arugula.

[Duck Dog]

Geez, and I thought Nobama was half white.

[Ultra Peanut]

Geez, and I thought Nobama was half white.I love this patently ridiculous ploy.

http://i44.tinypic.com/9r215h.jpg

He's not REALLY black, hurf de durf!

[Donger]

Oh sweet Donger and patteeu, you everloving ****tards. Never change.

Was Keith Ellison being cocky when he was sworn in on Thomas Jefferson's Koran?

That depends. What was his motivation in doing so?

[jAZ]

Same.

Pretty much every religous person now and basically ever?

[Ultra Peanut]

That depends. What was his motivation in doing so?He was being an arrogant Mooslin who wanted to compare himself to Jefferson.

[Donger]

Pretty much every religous person now and basically ever?

Sure.

[patteeu]

I'll ask you the same question I asked Donger. How do you know that it's not a tribute?

I don't. Perhaps if Obama and his people prominently characterized it that way it might soften my opinion a bit. However, his comparison of himself to Reagan was unmistakable so it seems reasonable to conclude that these latest actions are either further examples of conceit or that they are intended as a PR campaign to lead onlookers to see him in a certain way.

[googlegoogle]

Lincoln was the worst president. Big government started with him. No wonder Marxists,Foreigners,Chinese,socialists and freedom haters love him. They can always bring up Lincoln when crushing democracy rallies and reasons for invading other countries.

[Ultra Peanut]

Ronald Reagan was the worst president.fyp

[jAZ]

Sure.
So you run around questioning the faith of everyone, then?

Or is this distinction limited to your favored cocky, presumtuous, dare I say uppity... possibly Musslim political targets who are formerly known to you as Barack Hussein?

[Donger]

So you run around questioning the faith of everyone, then?

I'm merely pointing out a fact. I do believe he's a Christian. But the fact is: I don't know that he is. I only know that he claims to be. Same as you.

Or is this distinction limited to your favored cocky, presumtuous, dare I say uppity... possibly Musslim political targets who are formerly known to you as Barack Hussein?

All. For example, I don't know that Bush is a Christian, but I believe that he is.

[|Zach|]

This is fun.

[banyon]

Lincoln was the worst president. Big government started with him. No wonder Marxists,Foreigners,Chinese,socialists and freedom haters love him. They can always bring up Lincoln when crushing democracy rallies and reasons for invading other countries.

Congratulations on your first truly idiotic post here in Chiefsplanet DC. We look forward to many more entertaining ones in the future.

[dirk digler]

This is fun.

It is?

[dirk digler]

I'm merely pointing out a fact. I do believe he's a Christian. But the fact is: I don't know that he is. I only know that he claims to be. Same as you.



I know that he is. I sat next to him in church the other day and then we decided to go to the bathroom and he pulled out his bible but it really wasn't a bible it was a box with pot in it and we smoked a couple of joints in the church's bathroom and then we laughed at God and then smoked some more.

True story

[triple]

all these comparisons to Lincoln are laughable.

the guy's not even from illinois, he went to illinois to try to make it in politics.

not a descendant of slaves either. not that it really matters or whatever.

has he encountered racism at some point in his life, sure he has. So what? everybody has a different road. some people's is different than others.

do i think this guy dealt with oppression in childhood, sure. at Harvard, and as a member of the leftist Chicago political machine, and as a democrat politican? right.

based on the fact that he moves up through politics voting present and not doing anything but reading speeches... i think I will reserve my sympathy for America's racial injustice for people who suffer from it

[BigRedChief]

Lincoln was the worst president. Big government started with him. No wonder Marxists,Foreigners,Chinese,socialists and freedom haters love him. They can always bring up Lincoln when crushing democracy rallies and reasons for invading other countries.
WTH?:shake:

[banyon]

all these comparisons to Lincoln are laughable.

the guy's not even from illinois, he went to illinois to try to make it in politics.

not a descendant of slaves either. not that it really matters or whatever.



Lincoln wasn't from Illinois either. That's just where he made himslef, like Obama.

The correlation is that Lincoln made the first major act toward racial equality and Obama's ascension to the highest office in the country represents another barrier broken in striving for racial equality. How people can't see that is just bizarre really.

[WilliamTheIrish]

Lincoln wasn't from Illinois either. That's just where he made himslef, like Obama.

The correlation is that Lincoln made the first major act toward racial equality and Obama's ascension to the highest office in the country represents another barrier broken in striving for racial equality. How people can't see that is just bizarre really.

Well, see.. the guy was willing to tie up traffic in Denver for five hours... So he must be arrogant.

[dirk digler]

Well, see.. the guy was willing to tie up traffic in Denver for five hours... So he must be arrogant.

Who gives a shit about people in Denver?

[Donger]

Well, see.. the guy was willing to tie up traffic in Denver for five hours... So he must be arrogant.

I'm not sure if arrogant is the correct word, but he did choose to move venues, apparently without consideration of what would be required.

[Donger]

Who gives a shit about people in Denver?

Comments like this make Rain Man cry.

[googlegoogle]

Congratulations on your first truly idiotic post here in Chiefsplanet DC. We look forward to many more entertaining ones in the future.

The Chinese quoted Lincoln when they killed their own people.

Lincoln tried to preserve an empire much like Joseph Stalin.

Lincoln enacted big taxes.

Ofcourse you could care less.

[banyon]

The Chinese quoted Lincoln when they killed their own people.

Hinckley said he was doing it for Jodie Foster too. Are you going to hold that against her?

Lincoln tried to preserve an empire much like Joseph Stalin.

A contiguous nation-state that had been together for almost 100 years is now an "empire"? Good grief.

Lincoln enacted big taxes.

Lincoln was trying to raise funds in the middle of a war, he couldn't really worry too much at the time if people couldn't afford their 2nd yacht or vacation home.

Ofcourse you could care less.

I care about people espousing some ridiculous distortion of history that is wildly inaccurate, yes. That's why I bothered posting in the first place.

[patteeu]

Lincoln wasn't from Illinois either. That's just where he made himslef, like Obama.

The correlation is that Lincoln made the first major act toward racial equality and Obama's ascension to the highest office in the country represents another barrier broken in striving for racial equality. How people can't see that is just bizarre really.

Maybe you're right, but it seems like a poor choice to me. Lincoln wanted to ship freed slaves overseas to their own country since he didn't think they could live side by side with white folks. Maybe Eisenhower's bible would have been more appropriate given his actions to help break down barriers in the Little Rock 9 incident. Or LBJ's for his role in the passage of the Civil Rights Act. Or Nixon's for getting the ball really rolling on affirmative action. Or maybe Bill Clinton's since he was the "first black president". :shrug: ;)

[googlegoogle]

Hinckley said he was doing it for Jodie Foster too. Are you going to hold that against her?



A contiguous nation-state that had been together for almost 100 years is now an "empire"? Good grief.



Lincoln was trying to raise funds in the middle of a war, he couldn't really worry too much at the time if people couldn't afford their 2nd yacht or vacation home.



I care about people espousing some ridiculous distortion of history that is wildly inaccurate, yes. That's why I bothered posting in the first place.

Trying to stop the south from ceding violates everything this country was created for. Were you against the war of independence?

Lincoln created the 'income tax'. This violated our liberties to pay for his stupid war.

Also he was a hypocrite on the reasons for the civil war. He didn't care for black freedom. We have it in writing. It was all a front to preserve the empire.

The revisionist is you. Killing millions of people does not make a great president.

[banyon]

Trying to stop the south from ceding violates everything this country was created for. Were you against the war of independence?

Was I against the War of Independence? No, as I was not alive during the Revolutionary War. This country was not founded on a principle of perpetual overthrow of the government. It was based on separation from being a colony of Britain. The south wasn't a colony of the north.

Lincoln created the 'income tax'. This violated our liberties to pay for his stupid war.

Violated your liberty to do what?

Also he was a hypocrite on the reasons for the civil war. He didn't care for black freedom. We have it in writing. It was all a front to preserve the empire.

Don't you have that in writing from a political debate several years before the Proclamation? Are people not allowed to change their minds about things over the course of several years?

The revisionist is you. Killing millions of people does not make a great president.

Wow, you don't have the foggiest idea of what happened in the Civil War, do you?

[triple]

Lincoln wasn't from Illinois either. That's just where he made himslef, like Obama.

The correlation is that Lincoln made the first major act toward racial equality and Obama's ascension to the highest office in the country represents another barrier broken in striving for racial equality. How people can't see that is just bizarre really.

everyone knows this isn't about that, it's his mind numbed adherents swallowing the message that he already is as Lincoln, as Roosevelt, and everyone else they are conditioning people to think he's on the caliber of.


just another part of the cult of personality being built around him

[Adept Havelock]

Was I against the War of Independence? No, as I was not alive during the Revolutionary War. This country was not founded on a principle of perpetual overthrow of the government. It was based on separation from being a colony of Britain. The south wasn't a colony of the north.



Violated your liberty to do what?



Don't you have that in writing from a political debate several years before the Proclamation? Are people not allowed to change their minds about things over the course of several years?



Wow, you don't have the foggiest idea of what happened in the Civil War, do you?


Sounds like googly moogly saw the Lincoln Day sequence in that half baked abortion of a miniseries "Amerika", and thought it was a documentary. LMAO



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[triple]

what lessons, what impact has Lincoln's presidency had on Barack Obama other than that "black people should not be slaves" thing, which most of us have caught on to in the last 150 years? in what ways does he resemble Lincoln? how do the challenges affecting him resemble those affecting lincoln? what similarity is there at all?

[banyon]

everyone knows this isn't about that, it's his mind numbed adherents swallowing the message that he already is as Lincoln, as Roosevelt, and everyone else they are conditioning people to think he's on the caliber of.


just another part of the cult of personality being built around him

The only people I've ever heard trying to deify him are people who probably didn't vote for him. But it's hard not to be a little optimistic about it given the joke we've had there for 8 years.


Again, you've assumed it isn't a tribute just like everyone else, because it fits with your preconceptions and narrative.

[patteeu]

everyone knows this isn't about that, it's his mind numbed adherents swallowing the message that he already is as Lincoln, as Roosevelt, and everyone else they are conditioning people to think he's on the caliber of.


just another part of the cult of personality being built around him

Sounds right to me.

[googlegoogle]

Was I against the War of Independence? No, as I was not alive during the Revolutionary War. This country was not founded on a principle of perpetual overthrow of the government. It was based on separation from being a colony of Britain. The south wasn't a colony of the north.

This country was founded on fighting for freedom from an oppressor. Nothing to do with being just a colony. We played nice until...... 'Taxation without representation'. If it weren't for that then we might still be a part of England , you never know.



Violated your liberty to do what?
You confused me here. Our tax structure is now targeted at the middle class upper incomes. They pay all the taxes. So the few are now paying all the taxes. Isn't this taxation without representation. Everyone should be equal.

2nd plank of the Communist Manifesto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Manifesto



Don't you have that in writing from a political debate several years before the Proclamation? Are people not allowed to change their minds about things over the course of several years?

He didn't fight the war to free slaves.


Wow, you don't have the foggiest idea of what happened in the Civil War, do you? My mistake. 620,000.

He suspended Habeas Corpus, closed courts by force, and arrested citizens and elected officials without cause. Lincoln also raised troops without the consent of Congress, closed-down newspapers whose writers displayed any dissent to U.S. policy

When will the unquestioning Lincoln worship end? The romantic and sentimental rubbish of the Lincoln idolaters needs to end. Lincoln created big government and big taxes.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0761536418/lewrockwell/

[jAZ]

I'm merely pointing out a fact. I do believe he's a Christian. But the fact is: I don't know that he is. I only know that he claims to be. Same as you.

In order to get to the point, I'll adopt your phrasing: So you run around pointing out this fact for everyone, then? You'll be able to bump an old thread making that point about KCJohnny, GWB, Joe Leiberman, Keith Ellison?

For example, I don't know that Bush is a Christian, but I believe that he is.

The point is not what you believe, but what actions you've taken. Much like how we have never heard you say "George Walker" or "John Sindey"... I don't believe you've draw attention to this "fact" and in doing so question anyone else's religious faith, prior to this election.

[patteeu]

In order to get to the point, I'll adopt your phrasing: So you run around pointing out this fact for everyone, then? You'll be able to bump an old thread making that point about KCJohnny, GWB, Joe Leiberman, Keith Ellison?

I won't speak for Donger, but each different person is surrounded by different circumstances. In Barack Obama's case, both his mother and his father were atheists, he didn't attend church regularly until it became politically convenient, and when he chose his church he not only chose a politically advantageous congregation but he also chose a fairly liberal denomination that doesn't really require all that much commitment from it's members (unlike Catholicism, for example, where weekly attendance at Mass is a must). And then when his membership became a political liability, he dropped it like a hot potato. To me that calls into question his religious sincerity to a far greater degree than anything I've seen from KCJohnny, GWB, Joe Leiberman or Keith Ellison. In fact, in at least 3 of those 4 cases (and probably all 4), the people in question have remained true to their faith despite facing ridicule or political disadvantage.

[Donger]

In order to get to the point, I'll adopt your phrasing: So you run around pointing out this fact for everyone, then? You'll be able to bump an old thread making that point about KCJohnny, GWB, Joe Leiberman, Keith Ellison?

You may want to remember that my opinion of Obama's faith came up in this thread because someone wrote something about his being sworn in with a Koran. I then asked (paraphrasing) why he would do so, since he claims to be a Christian. You then began asking questions. I've been answering them.

[jAZ]

You may want to remember that my opinion of Obama's faith came up in this thread because someone wrote something about his being sworn in with a Koran. I then asked (paraphrasing) why he would do so, since he claims to be a Christian. You then began asking questions. I've been answering them.
You have since seemed to stop answering my questions. At least this last one.

[Donger]

You have since seemed to stop answering my questions. At least this last one.

If in those threads someone asked me if I knew that they were of their respective religions, my answer would have been the same. Haven't I said the same about Bush in this very thread?

[jAZ]

If in those threads someone asked me if I knew that they were of their respective religions, my answer would have been the same.
Yet no one asked you anything in this thread. You injected your loaded-comment unsolicited into a thread. Unlike you've ever done before with anyone else, probably on or offline ever, I'd guess.
Haven't I said the same about Bush in this very thread?
Donger=Fail.

Ex post facto = faux-proof.

This is exactly like how you tried to claim you use middle names.... 'see? John Sidney, John Sidney, John Sidney... this isn't about trying to suggest Obama's a muslim at all!!!'

Which is to say, a pile of BS only a mother could love.

And as a side note, you really must not have much respect for the people on CP to think that they are so stupid as to buy this BS. You seem commmited to these arguments, but they don't reflect well on you, their lack of honesty aside. I would have assumed you'd be more capable than this.

[Donger]

Yet no one asked you anything in this thread. You injected your loaded-comment unsolicited into a thread. Unlike you've ever done before with anyone else, probably on or offline ever, I'd guess.

You've asked me plenty of questions in this thread. If my acknowledging that I don't know that Obama is a Christian is "loaded," I don't know what to tell you, other than you don't either. I have the courage to admit it, however.

Donger=Fail.

Ex post facto = faux-proof.

This is exactly like how you tried to claim you use middle names.... 'see? John Sidney, John Sidney, John Sidney... this isn't about trying to suggest Obama's a muslim at all!!!'

Which is to say, a pile of BS only a mother could love.

And as a side note, you really must not have much respect for the people on CP to think that they are so stupid as to buy this BS. You seem commmited to these arguments, but they don't reflect well on you, their lack of honesty aside. I would have assumed you'd be more capable than this.

I can't understand you when you mumble.

[jAZ]

You've asked me plenty of questions in this thread. If my acknowledging that I don't know that Obama is a Christian is "loaded," I don't know what to tell you, other than you don't either.
I guess when you've run out of doors to escape through, you become a big fan of non-sequiturs.

[Donger]

I guess when you've run out of doors to escape through, you become a big fan of non-sequiturs.

I'm a big fan of accuracy. Why does it bother you to acknowledge that you don't know whether or not Obama is a Christian?

[jAZ]

I'm a big fan of accuracy. Why does it bother you to acknowledge that you don't know whether or not Obama is a Christian?

That's a complete non-sequitur to the discussion. I'm the person who made the point that no one can know anyone's true beliefs. But you know that.

Feel free to return to the discussion at hand anytime.

[Donger]

That's a complete non-sequitur to the discussion. I'm the person who made the point that no one can know anyone's true beliefs. But you know that.

Feel free to return to the discussion at hand anytime.

Good. So we agree.

What discussion would you like me to return to?

[jAZ]

Good. So we agree.

What discussion would you like me to return to?

Can you provide your past examples of posts prior to this thread where you questioned (in the name of accuracy) the faith of anyone other than Barack Obama. One where you point out that xyz person merely "claims to be" of this or that faith.

Or is it as it seems... that this is this distinction limited to your favorite cocky, presumtuous, uppity, Musslim political target formerly known to you as Barack Hussein?

[Donger]

Can you provide your past examples of posts prior to this thread where you questioned (in the name of accuracy) the faith of anyone other than Barack Obama. One where you point out that xyz person merely "claims to be" of this or that faith.

Or is it as it seems... that this is this distinction limited to your favorite cocky, presumtuous, uppity, Musslim political target formerly known to you as Barack Hussein?

Sure. See this thread and George Walker Bush.

[morphius]

what lessons, what impact has Lincoln's presidency had on Barack Obama other than that "black people should not be slaves" thing, which most of us have caught on to in the last 150 years? in what ways does he resemble Lincoln? how do the challenges affecting him resemble those affecting lincoln? what similarity is there at all?
Because Obama is a Republican, just like Lincoln, duh.

[jAZ]

Can you provide your past examples of posts prior to this thread...

Sure. See this thread and George Walker Bush.
I'm going to assume that you just suck at reading.

[Donger]

I'm going to assume that you just suck at reading.

Sorry. Multitasking and failing miserably.

I doubt it, since I can't think of another politician whose religious beliefs have been questioned in recent times.

I fail to see what that proves, however.

[Ultra Peanut]

Because Obama is a Republican, just like Lincoln, duh.Hahahahahahahahahaha

I love this canard.

[patteeu]

Yet no one asked you anything in this thread. You injected your loaded-comment unsolicited into a thread. Unlike you've ever done before with anyone else, probably on or offline ever, I'd guess.

Donger=Fail.

Ex post facto = faux-proof.

This is exactly like how you tried to claim you use middle names.... 'see? John Sidney, John Sidney, John Sidney... this isn't about trying to suggest Obama's a muslim at all!!!'

Which is to say, a pile of BS only a mother could love.

And as a side note, you really must not have much respect for the people on CP to think that they are so stupid as to buy this BS. You seem commmited to these arguments, but they don't reflect well on you, their lack of honesty aside. I would have assumed you'd be more capable than this.

Good grief, jAZ. Don't you think you overplay the dishonesty card a bit?

[Ultra Peanut]

I think it's impossible to overstate the degree to which you and Donger regularly spout untruths.

[Donger]

I think it's impossible to overstate the degree to which you and Donger regularly spout untruths.

Really? Could you provide an example for reference?

[mlyonsd]

I think it's impossible to overstate the degree to which you and Donger regularly spout untruths.

Obama's middle name isn't Hussein?

[Gary]

Truman, Eisenhower and Nixon swore the oath on 2 bibles. Talk about cocky... :)

The "Big Lub" William Howard Taft swore in on a box of crispy cremes...son of a bitch!

[jAZ]

I doubt it, since I can't think of another politician whose religious beliefs have been questioned in recent times.
Ahhh... so you were lying when you said that you were not questioning his religion, but merely pointing out a fact.

Or maybe it's that you were not questioning his religion, but merely pointing out a fact because you favor accuracy even though you don't favor that accuracy for anyone else, because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned.

[Donger]

Ahhh... so you were lying when you said that you were not questioning his religion, but merely pointing out a fact.

Or maybe it's that you were not questioning his religion, but merely pointing out a fact because you favor accuracy even though you don't favor that accuracy for anyone else, because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned.

I'm not lying about anything. I don't know that Obama is a Christian. Neither do you.

[jAZ]

I'm not lying about anything. I don't know that Obama is a Christian. Neither do you.

So you are questioning his religion.

[Donger]

So you are questioning his religion.

I'm acknowledging a fact. Since you don't know if he is a Christian either, you must as well.

If you want to be accurate and honest, that is.

[banyon]

This country was founded on fighting for freedom from an oppressor. Nothing to do with being just a colony. We played nice until...... 'Taxation without representation'. If it weren't for that then we might still be a part of England , you never know.

Freedom from oppression? So the North had the right and duty to free the oppressed slaves then, is that what you are saying? The slaves were certainly taxed without representation.


He suspended Habeas Corpus, closed courts by force, and arrested citizens and elected officials without cause. Lincoln also raised troops without the consent of Congress, closed-down newspapers whose writers displayed any dissent to U.S. policy

Yeah, it was a war that threatened our survival and pitted brother against brother. It's pretty hard to wage a war within your own borders without some disruptions in the normal flow of government.

When will the unquestioning Lincoln worship end? The romantic and sentimental rubbish of the Lincoln idolaters needs to end. Lincoln created big government and big taxes.

This is just idiotic. How did Lincoln "create" big government? I think that's probably just a catch phrase you've picked up on these fringe-libertarian websites you've been frequenting. How were his ambitions for the power of government more bold than Hamilton's? more threatening to the other branches than Andrew Jackson's? more power-grabbing than Polk's? The fact that he raised a large army? Well he kind of had to. What government agencies that were so cumbersome did he create? Perhaps a larger veteran's committee, but that was kind of out of necessity.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0761536418/lewrockwell/

Have you ever tried reading one of the non-fringe actually acclaimed Lincoln biographies? Like Vidal's? Or the "Team of Rivals"? Or dd you just pick up what you listened to in your 8th grade textbook, and now that you've read (or more likely skimmed from internet posts) one of these conspiracist sources, your analysis has stopped? That's pretty much what I would guess.

[jAZ]

I'm acknowledging a fact. Since you don't know if he is a Christian either, you must as well.

If you want to be accurate and honest, that is.

So it's that you were not questioning his religion, but merely pointing out a fact because you favor accuracy even though you don't favor that accuracy for anyone else, because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned, but you weren't questioning his religion, just stating a fact because you favor accuracy in this case but not others because no one else has had their religion questioned.

[splatbass]

I'm not lying about anything. I don't know that Obama is a Christian. Neither do you.

The only way we have to know anyone's religious belief if what they tell us. Do you question everyone who says they are Christian, or just Obama?

[J Diddy]

I'm acknowledging a fact. Since you don't know if he is a Christian either, you must as well.

If you want to be accurate and honest, that is.

I have no reason to doubt him. Nor do you. Probably because it doesn't matter.

[jAZ]

The only way we have to know anyone's religious belief if what they tell us. Do you question everyone who says they are Christian, or just Obama?

He refuses to admit that he's questioning Obama. Just stating a fact. A fact that he only chooses to make an issue with Obama, but not because he questions his religous faith. But because it's a fact to him that his faith is questionable. He has faith in that fact, in fact.

[Calcountry]

President-elect Barack Obama will take the oath of office using the same Bible upon which President Lincoln was sworn in at his first inauguration. Obama will be the first President sworn in using the Lincoln Bible since its initial use in 1861.
"President-elect Obama is deeply honored that the Library of Congress has made the Lincoln Bible available for use during his swearing-in," said…


http://buzz.yahoo.com/article/1:huffington_post:325c08d5ef263c3c4c0528d0eac43c54;_ylt=AllbM9dMuh4YL6IHjJCMnyGPeZ94



course you Obama haters will probably claim he is going to hide the Koran somewhere inside it or something :rolleyes:awesome

[Donger]

The only way we have to know anyone's religious belief if what they tell us.

Correct.

Do you question everyone who says they are Christian, or just Obama?

In this thread, which is about Obama? Obama. But, as I've said, I do actually believe that Obama is a Christian. The fact remains, however, that I don't know that.

[Velvet_Jones]

His Dad was from Kenya, wasn't he?

Facts don't matter to Banyon when you are speaking of "The Obama".

[Velvet_Jones]

So, the racial thing has no importance, then. Is that really your position?

You live in Dodge City Kansas and you want to deal with racial things. WTF. You need to move.

[Velvet_Jones]

It absoultely does. Do you think Lincoln would've have loaned it to him himself if he could?

To pretend that because a person's family wasn't directly oppressed, that the racial group that he is a part wasn't oppressed and he doesn't represent that group of people, is just silly, IMO.

Are you a drama queen or is it just you Obama fetish?

[banyon]

You live in Dodge City Kansas and you want to deal with racial things. WTF. You need to move.

WTF is this supposed to mean?

[banyon]

Are you a drama queen or is it just you Obama fetish?

Are you drunk?

[mlyonsd]

This is actually pretty cool. It would be neat to have a chance to look through the bible once.

Hope it's not raining.