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Count Alex's Losses
12-23-2008, 10:58 PM
Pat loves Herm. I hate him.

http://kan.scout.com/2/824279.html


<table><tbody><tr><td valign="top">With Carl Peterson’s resignation, Chiefs Head Coach Herm Edwards is now on the hot seat. Will he be fired? In this collaboration, Pat Clifton argues for Edwards to be retained as head coach, while C.E. Wendler argues against his retention.
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CLIFTON - Don’t Punish Herm For Previous Mistakes

One of the main reasons Herm Edwards deserves another year as the head man in Kansas City is the state this team was in when he got here. Dick Vermeil and Carl Peterson foolishly stocked the cupboard with high-priced veterans in an attempt to win a Super Bowl. While making the big game your ultimate goal is no sin, selling out the future of the franchise certainly is.

Willie Roaf (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2475254) and Trent Green (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3943217) were great acquisitions who made significant differences during Kansas City's successful 13-3 campaign, but players like Shawn Barber, Vonnie Holliday (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3642687), Chris Bober and Kendrell Bell (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2980080) stunted the growth of the franchise. Patrick Surtain (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698875) had some meaningful years in Kansas City, but was overpaid. Let's also not forget Peterson's tiff with John Tait (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3630273) that sent a young, talented tackle away, and Vermeil's lack of interest in giving Donnie Edwards (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698852) a long-term deal.

Throughout the Vermeil era, fans and media members constantly referred to a “window of opportunity” for winning a Super Bowl. As Green, Priest Holmes, Roaf, and everyone else aged, that window slowly closed. Have you ever heard the phrase “window of opportunity” uttered in reference to Pittsburgh, New England, Philadelphia or Tampa Bay? No. Even after the retirement of Tiki Barber and Michael Strahan, the Giants are still a viable championship contender.

Carl and Dick sold out the future of the franchise in an attempt to give Lamar Hunt one more championship, and though a valiant effort, it failed and now we're left with the aftermath. Herm Edwards was charged with the unfavorable and thankless task of rebuilding this team from the ground up, and has only been allowed to truly do that for one season now. He deserves one more year to see his vision come to fruition.

COUNTERPOINT

There’s no arguing with Pat’s premise that the cupboard was relatively bare when Herm Edwards arrived in Kansas City. The Chiefs drafted horribly during the Dick Vermeil era, and most of the viable talent on the roster was aging, or already well past its prime. However, should that really net Edwards another year three seasons after the fact?

Herm has had three years to reshape the roster as he sees fit. Obviously Carl Peterson had some say in it, but it’s worth noting that the best players of the Herm Edwards era – Jared Allen (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3716719), Larry Johnson, Tony Gonzalez (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698854) – all came from the Dick Vermeil era.

Herm’s had three seasons to find his own franchise-caliber players. Where are his superstars? Where are the players he can point to and say, “He’s a reason we’re on the right track?” Dwayne Bowe (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698848) is close, but hasn’t had a season like Gonzalez or Johnson previously enjoyed.

Besides, what are the Chiefs really going to accomplish in one more year? There are still so many holes on this team – offensive line, defensive end, linebacker, safety, maybe quarterback, and tons of depth issues – it’s going to be tough for the 2009 Chiefs to impress anyone barring an enormous acquisition of talent in one offseason.


WENDLER - Herm Is Overrated As A Judge Of Talent

When he was hired, there was a lot of talk that Herm Edwards really knew how to identify and cultivate talent. People pointed to a few players he drafted in New York, and at the time, everyone was pretty happy with his first draft in Kansas City.

Three years later, that draft doesn’t look so good. Tamba Hali (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698856) is having an awful year, Bernard Pollard (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698871) is still struggling despite some recent strides, and Brodie Croyle (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698850) can probably be considered a bust. The second day of that draft is embarrassingly bad apart from seventh-round pick Jarrad Page (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698868). Apart from Dwayne Bowe and Tank Tyler, the Chiefs’ 2007 draft isn’t all that impressive, either.

But Herm was ready to go to battle with some of these players. He thought so much of Hali, he signed off on his move to right defensive end this year, which obviously completely flopped. He thought so much of Croyle, the Chiefs felt their quarterback depth chart was fine going into the season despite awful training camps from Damon Huard (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698859) and Tyler Thigpen.

How about the Chiefs’ terrible free-agent signings over the last three years? Obviously we can’t place the blame for every wasted signing completely on Herm, but as the head coach he has to have some input. And we know he loves Jon McGraw (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698865), whom most people are pretty unsatisfied with on defense or special teams. The point is that Herm may realize the benefit of playing young players, but he may not know how to pick them especially well.

COUNTERPOINT

I have to disagree on this point here altogether, starting with Tamba Hali, who excited many fans his first two seasons with the Chiefs and understandably so. He outsacked Jared Allen in 2006 and registered 7.5 sacks in 2007. He's obviously playing injured this season, and that's really hampered his ability to get after the quarterback. Another thing that excited fans about Hali was his knack for forcing fumbles. He has 12 in three years. While his production has been limited this year, and he's not yet lived up to his first-round ability, he’s being hampered by injuries in his third season, which is supposed to be the coming out year for NFL players.

Secondly, I'll agree that Brodie Croyle is considered a bust, but he was just a third-rounder. Herm took a shot on a fragile guy who had every ability required to be an NFL quarterback except for the ability to stay healthy. If he was playing behind the lines Trent Green played behind, who's to say Croyle wouldn't flourish?

When it comes to Jon McGraw, he was a castaway who's now the Chiefs’ special teams captain. Not only is he a good locker room influence, but he makes a ton of tackles on coverage teams. Yes, KC's return teams are wretched, but McGraw is the lone bright spot.

I won't sit here and claim that Edwards is a draft guru, but I don't think it's fair to judge his drafts just yet. Generally drafts aren't fair game for retrospective evaluation until three years after the fact, and that leaves only Edward's first draft. Some of those players, like Pollard, have underperformed immensely, but finding a solid and possible future pro bowl safety in the seventh round is unheard of. Give Edwards kudos for that. Let's also not forget the accolades cast upon the Chiefs after the '08 draft.


CLIFTON - Players Love Herm

Edwards' popularity among players is another reason he ought to be kept around. Recently, a poll was conducted among NFL players about who would be their favorite coaches to play for. Edwards was fourth, and has drawn some criticism for his reputation as a player's coach, but I would argue that it's a positive thing.

With the Chiefs somewhere around $30 million under the salary cap and with lots of holes to fill, they're going to have to be aggressive in the free agent market. For a lot of free agents out there, a la Ty Law (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4054736), money isn't the sole deciding factor on where to sign. If a player likes the coach, it makes him a little easier to woo.

The Chiefs have one of the most popular coaches in the league in Edwards, and if his retention means they're more likely to snag a high-level free agent this spring, then I'm all for it. Herm's experiences as a player in the NFL and his understanding of a player's needs are a bonus when trying to lure free agents, and it's a bonus that's often overlooked.

In addition to the fringe benefits of Edwards’ popularity in free agency, he still commands the respect of the locker room. Edwards has motivated a terrible team with nothing to play for to fight like they’re in the middle of a playoff race for the last half of the season. If he can demand that kind of play out of this bad of a team, imagine what he'll be able to do with a good squad.

COUNTERPOINT

As popular as Herm may be, players don’t always know what’s best for them. If they did, there would be little need for coaching. What’s the old saying? The inmates shouldn’t run the asylum?

A little history lesson goes a long way in countering this point. When the Chiefs dumped John Mackovic following the 1986 season, the Chiefs’ players rallied together in support of Frank Gansz, their special teams coach, to be their next head coach.

Kansas City’s brass completely bought it. Gansz was named head coach and the Chiefs went on to win eight games in two years. Still, that’s better than Herm has done recently. Does anyone know if Gansz is looking for work?

As for free agency, is the popularity of a head coach really going to matter? It certainly didn’t help the Chiefs this year when they lost out on Josh Brown (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3871097) and Jeff Faine (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3634093). Herm may be Mr. Popular, but looking at the terrible free-agent signings the Chiefs have made under his watch, you wonder if it means much.


WENDLER - Herm Not The Defensive Guru We Thought He Was

The first day he was hired, Herm Edwards made a grand speech about defense. He told us all that his Chiefs would play defense, and they would get dirty. Three years later, the players are dirty, but without much to show for it. The Chiefs returned to the lows of the Greg-Robinson era on defense this year and currently rank 31st.

Why? Sure, the Chiefs had plenty of injuries on defense this year, but even when they were completely healthy, they struggled immensely. The only thing Kansas City really lost on that side of the ball was Jared Allen. Obviously, Allen is a great player, but is the absence of his impact alone enough to drop the Chiefs from an above average defense to the league’s worst?

Good coaching finds ways to get the most out of the talent on the field. Look what Chan Gailey did with an offense that was putting up bottom-of-the-barrel numbers for weeks, simply by switching schemes to the spread. And he did it with an inexperienced quarterback to boot.

Where is the defensive equivalent of this? And what is Herm’s real worth to the Chiefs if the biggest improvement during his tenure has come on offense? Is he even the right coach to manage the sort of team that leads with its offense? To make matters worse, Edwards has been quoted as saying he wants this year’s entire defensive staff to return next season. Really? The entire staff on the 31st-ranked defense in the NFL is doing a bang-up job? I find that hard to believe.

COUNTERPOINT

There is undeniable validity to the argument that Herm hasn't turned the defense around like expected, but look what he's had to work with. In 2005, KC's leading top 10 tacklers were as follows: Kawika Mitchell (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3704008), Sammy Knight (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3632530), Derrick Johnson (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698860), Greg Wesley (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3698882), Jared Allen, Eric Hicks, Kendrell Bell, Patrick Surtain, Eric Warfield and John Browning. Of those 10 players, only two remain on the team, and of the departed ones, there are only two who anyone could argue the Chiefs should have retained: Allen and Mitchell.

The thing a lot of people forget is that this defense wasn't just terrible when Edwards arrived, but rather it was terrible and terribly old. Everyone talks about the offense aging and that hurting the team, but no one acknowledges how old the defensive players were. When a player crosses over the hill, his play generally gets worse. So, take a bad player and make him worse, and there you have the Chiefs’ defensive players left for Edwards to work with.

Yes, this year's defense is bad, but look at its makeup. There are only three starters with more than three years of experience, and I don't think anyone's going to tell me that Jason Babin (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3564439), Rocky Boiman, or Demorrio Williams (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3243092) are defensive leaders in terms of skill. Give Glenn Dorsey (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3722647), Brandon Carr (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3724379), Brandon Flowers (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3723953), and Tank Tyler more time to season, then replace Pollard, and you've got yourself a potentially good defense. Also, add another draft that could likely bring a highly rated rush end and a starting linebacker and we're looking pretty good. Old players get worse, save Tony Gonzalez, and young players get better. These players will get better.

WENDLER - Herm’s Attitude Is Tiresome

Forget the on-the-field, gameday problems. What’s really been disturbing this year are Herm Edwards’ press conferences. Every week, there’s someone new to blame, whether it’s a veteran or an undrafted free agent cornerback who’s playing without the benefit of a real pass rush. Nothing is never Herm’s fault.

Most of the time, sitting through one of Dick Vermeil’s press conferences was tolerable, because after a loss he always stood up and said he and his coaching staff had to do a better job. When was the last time Edwards said anything like that? It was absolutely refreshing to hear Detroit Head Coach Rod Marinelli humble himself in front of the media the other day after the Lions’ 15th loss.

The only thing that separates Edwards and Marinelli this year is two wins (one over a team with JaMarcus Russell (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3684036) at quarterback). Yet this week, Edwards was telling us all how well-coached the Chiefs are. Does Herm have a giant, untapped reserve of coaching genius at his disposal? If the Chiefs are supposedly well-coached now, it’s going to take the best coaching effort in the history of the NFL to bring them from winning two games to competing for the playoffs. It’s not all about talent.

COUNTERPOINT

Edwards has continuously talked about the encouraging play of many of his young players day in and day out. Many people are only privy to the gameday press conferences, but privately I've been lucky enough to listen to him gush over players like Brandon Carr, Brandon Flowers, Branden Albert (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3542598), Tyler Thigpen and Tony Gonzalez.

Herm has never once thrown his players under the bus. Even after veterans Patrick Surtain and Jarrad Page screwed up coverage on the go-ahead scoring drive in the meltdown against San Diego last week, Edwards refused to name the player who made the mistake, leaving media members to guess which player blew the coverage.

Edwards is a stand-up guy, and he believes in his football team. He has a team full of young players, and he openly admits they are going to make mistakes, but they should be attributed to youth, not inability.

As far as the statement that winning requires more than talent, I couldn't agree more. That’s precisely why I believe you have to commend the job Edwards and his staff have done with such a lack of talent this year. They've not won many games, but improved, and they've gone down to the wire many good teams.

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blueballs
12-23-2008, 11:01 PM
anything after the firing
is relief and relaxation

RustShack
12-23-2008, 11:07 PM
If a HC can't turn a team around in three years they suck.

Tribal Warfare
12-23-2008, 11:08 PM
Jesus Christ, the Clifton guy must be drinking from a toxic well that Herm has provided, I mean that's homervision at its worst.

Agent V
12-23-2008, 11:08 PM
If a HC can't turn a team around in three years they suck.

Oh, but I only started last year.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 11:09 PM
That’s precisely why I believe you have to commend the job Edwards and his staff have done with such a lack of talent this year.

Lack of talent? He said that after he just spent he whole article arguing about the talent that Herm is developing?

3 years is more than enough to completely rebuild 31 of 32 franchises... To bad that 1 franchise cant properly rebuild...

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 11:10 PM
Oh, but I only started last year.

Thats another bullshit excuse from Herm...

chiefzilla1501
12-23-2008, 11:15 PM
If a HC can't turn a team around in three years they suck.

And I will repeatedly point out that in those three years, he had a General Manager who outright refused to make the moves rebuilding teams should make to turn the team around.

Again, I stand behind getting rid of Herm, but people keep bringing up wins/losses and the failed rebuild without fairly analyzing the situation he was put in.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 11:16 PM
And I will repeatedly point out that in those three years, he had a General Manager who outright refused to make the moves rebuilding teams should make to turn the team around.

Again, I stand behind getting rid of Herm, but people keep bringing up wins/losses and the failed rebuild without fairly analyzing the situation he was put in.

When Herm is finally gone, I am going to spend every post on why he messed up the team, just like you do with Carl...

BTW, Herm chose to accept this job, he wasnt forced as you always refer too...

Guru
12-23-2008, 11:20 PM
Something tells me if I read it I will get pissed off. Judging by the responses thus far, I think I am right.

chiefzilla1501
12-23-2008, 11:22 PM
Lack of talent? He said that after he just spent he whole article arguing about the talent that Herm is developing?

3 years is more than enough to completely rebuild 31 of 32 franchises... To bad that 1 franchise cant properly rebuild...

31 of 32 franchises didn't have a 5-10% success rate in the NFL draft from 1999-2005.
31 of 32 franchises weren't deemed to be the oldest team in the NFL before they were forced to rebuild.
31 of 32 franchises didn't have a GM who has a long history of repatching teams instead of rebuilding
Most of the 31 of 32 franchises get top 5 draft picks. In 2005 and 2006, when the Chiefs should have blown the team up and rebuilt, the Chiefs ended up with picks #20 and #22--two picks that have a considerably lower success rate, especially once you get to the second round and beyond

We keep comparing the Chiefs to 31 of 32 other teams, but the situation the Chiefs were put in was far worse than anything I've seen any team encounter since the Titans faced it about 5 years ago. This was a team that during the Vermeil era let the entire roster get to 30+ years of age, whiffed on almost every free agent pickup, drafted at about a 5% success rate, and let the cap balloon close to the limit. Those indicators made failure a given. And worse, the GM held back every effort to blow the team up and start over again.

That's not typical. That is an extremely high level of dysfunction from the front office that is finally being dealt with now.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 11:23 PM
31 of 32 franchises didn't have a 5-10% success rate in the NFL draft from 1999-2005.
31 of 32 franchises weren't deemed to be the oldest team in the NFL before they were forced to rebuild.
31 of 32 franchises didn't have a GM who has a long history of repatching teams instead of rebuilding
Most of the 31 of 32 franchises get top 5 draft picks. In 2005 and 2006, when the Chiefs should have blown the team up and rebuilt, the Chiefs ended up with picks #20 and #22--two picks that have a considerably lower success rate, especially once you get to the second round and beyond

We keep comparing the Chiefs to 31 of 32 other teams, but the situation the Chiefs were put in was far worse than anything I've seen any team encounter since the Titans faced it about 5 years ago. This was a team that during the Vermeil era let the entire roster get to 30+ years of age, whiffed on almost every free agent pickup, drafted at about a 5% success rate, and let the cap balloon close to the limit. Those indicators made failure a given. And worse, the GM held back every effort to blow the team up and start over again.

That's not typical. That is an extremely high level of dysfunction from the front office that is finally being dealt with now.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_12_16.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824YYUS)





http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb113&pp=ZNxdm824YYUS (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb113_ZNxdm824YYUS&utm_id=7921)

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 11:24 PM
Chiefzilla....

Do you realize we are not the only franchise to ever get old or to rebuild?

Cormac
12-23-2008, 11:27 PM
The Chiefs were 4-12 last year and are 2-13 this year.

KC have EASILY the worst pass-rush in NFL history in 2008.

next.....

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 11:29 PM
The Chiefs were 4-12 last year and are 2-13 this year.

KC have EASILY the worst pass-rush in NFL history in 2008.

next.....

That is because we dont have any talent on the DL thanks to Carl...

chiefzilla1501
12-23-2008, 11:34 PM
Chiefzilla....

Do you realize we are not the only franchise to ever get old or to rebuild?

We weren't just a franchise that got old. At one stretch, we had the oldest starting lineup in the NFL. So many franchises got old, but we were the oldest.

We weren't the only franchise to rebuild. But we were probably the only franchise to have less than a 10% success rate in drafting (starter and backup). So many franchises struggled in the draft, but we were probably the worst.

On age and draft success alone, you'd be hard-pressed to find many teams who were worse.

On age and draft success combined, you'd be very, very, very hard-pressed to find many teams who were worse.

You can keep trying to make a case about how the Chiefs' situation was like something most teams have endured, but it's not a very good one. The Chiefs got older than any other franchise and were probably the worst in the league at bringing in young talent to replace them. When you're the worst at both, that makes it doubly worse.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 11:38 PM
We weren't just a franchise that got old. At one stretch, we had the oldest starting lineup in the NFL. So many franchises got old, but we were the oldest.

We weren't the only franchise to rebuild. But we were probably the only franchise to have less than a 10% success rate in drafting (starter and backup). So many franchises struggled in the draft, but we were probably the worst.

On age and draft success alone, you'd be hard-pressed to find many teams who were worse.

On age and draft success combined, you'd be very, very, very hard-pressed to find many teams who were worse.

You can keep trying to make a case about how the Chiefs' situation was like something most teams have endured, but it's not a very good one. The Chiefs got older than any other franchise and were probably the worst in the league at bringing in young talent to replace them. When you're the worst at both, that makes it doubly worse.

Fair enough, but we are not getting better or more talented after 3 drafts...

Honestly, if this team is going to succeed in the future, Carl is already gone, and Herm HAS to go, a long with his staff...

There hasnt been a better time in the last 20 years to dump the whole fucking thing and start fresh with a new approach to building a franchise/championship team..

Keeping Herm is a slap in the face to the fans and especially the STH's.

chiefzilla1501
12-23-2008, 11:41 PM
When Herm is finally gone, I am going to spend every post on why he messed up the team, just like you do with Carl...

BTW, Herm chose to accept this job, he wasnt forced as you always refer too...

I'm sure you will lay down plenty of opinions about how Herm messed up the team. You'll create plenty of lose-lose situations. If Turk McBride becomes a pro bowler, you'll criticize Herm for not coaching him up. If Turk ends up getting cut, you'll criticize Herm for drafting the wrong guy. I know how this works.

I guarantee that in 2-3 years, we'll look back at the foundation herm is leaving behind in 2008 and say that we made a lot of real good personnel decisions. For those that are objective enough, that is, to evaluate the situation fairly.

dallaschiefsfan
12-23-2008, 11:44 PM
Very sick of Vermeil being thrown under the bus. Vermeil did not make most personnel decisions. He was a part...but not the final vote, necessarily. That's why teams have a GM. Herm isn't a GM either. Carl is at fault for the talent we have had (or have passed on). Vermeil and Herm are responsible for coaching what they're given. Vermeil did a good job with what he was given AND what he inherited (remember how useless Dante Hall was until Vermeil identified a way to tap his talents?). Herm has done a terrible job with the hand he's bee dealt. Vermeil was always a good coach. Herm has never been a good coach. Does anyone deny that this team would have more wins under a different guy? This all seems to obvious that I'm still amazed that people argue on behalf of Germ.

dallaschiefsfan
12-23-2008, 11:46 PM
I guarantee that in 2-3 years, we'll look back at the foundation herm is leaving behind in 2008 and say that we made a lot of real good personnel decisions. For those that are objective enough, that is, to evaluate the situation fairly.

Yeah...like the "foundation" Herm left with the New York Jets. ROFL

Not gonna' happen.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 11:49 PM
I'm sure you will lay down plenty of opinions about how Herm messed up the team. You'll create plenty of lose-lose situations. If Turk McBride becomes a pro bowler, you'll criticize Herm for not coaching him up. If Turk ends up getting cut, you'll criticize Herm for drafting the wrong guy. I know how this works.

I guarantee that in 2-3 years, we'll look back at the foundation herm is leaving behind in 2008 and say that we made a lot of real good personnel decisions. For those that are objective enough, that is, to evaluate the situation fairly.

Well we will miss you when you follow Herm to his new team....

chiefzilla1501
12-23-2008, 11:49 PM
Fair enough, but we are not getting better or more talented after 3 drafts...

Honestly, if this team is going to succeed in the future, Carl is already gone, and Herm HAS to go, a long with his staff...

There hasnt been a better time in the last 20 years to dump the whole ****ing thing and start fresh with a new approach to building a franchise/championship team..

Keeping Herm is a slap in the face to the fans and especially the STH's.

I have said many times that the decision to keep/can Herm should be up to the new GM and I support whichever decision he makes. Even if that means firing Herm, which I think is inevitable.

I never thought Herm was a Super Bowl coach. And I never wanted him beyond 2009 unless he proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he could take this team deep. I don't have any problem with him getting fired. But the man is being shit on in every direction and a lot of it is for stuff that he had no control over.

I'm just saying... when we play the blame game, let's not blame Herm for stuff Peterson screwed up, or blame Peterson for stuff Herm screwed up. This team has had 6 wins in 2 seasons, and for some reason, the critics will all have you believe that Herm is 100% responsible for that.

chiefzilla1501
12-23-2008, 11:50 PM
Very sick of Vermeil being thrown under the bus. Vermeil did not make most personnel decisions. He was a part...but not the final vote, necessarily. That's why teams have a GM. Herm isn't a GM either. Carl is at fault for the talent we have had (or have passed on). Vermeil and Herm are responsible for coaching what they're given. Vermeil did a good job with what he was given AND what he inherited (remember how useless Dante Hall was until Vermeil identified a way to tap his talents?). Herm has done a terrible job with the hand he's bee dealt. Vermeil was always a good coach. Herm has never been a good coach. Does anyone deny that this team would have more wins under a different guy? This all seems to obvious that I'm still amazed that people argue on behalf of Germ.

Who's blaming Vermeil? You're not talking about me, are you? Because I most definitely never blamed Vermeil for anything.

chiefzilla1501
12-23-2008, 11:51 PM
Well we will miss you when you follow Herm to his new team....

Which is funny, because I have said many times that I think he should be fired.

dallaschiefsfan
12-23-2008, 11:52 PM
Who's blaming Vermeil? You're not talking about me, are you? Because I most definitely never blamed Vermeil for anything.

The article. It was in the first point by the guy.

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 11:52 PM
I have said many times that the decision to keep/can Herm should be up to the new GM and I support whichever decision he makes. Even if that means firing Herm, which I think is inevitable.

I never thought Herm was a Super Bowl coach. And I never wanted him beyond 2009 unless he proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he could take this team deep. I don't have any problem with him getting fired. But the man is being shit on in every direction and a lot of it is for stuff that he had no control over.

I'm just saying... when we play the blame game, let's not blame Herm for stuff Peterson screwed up, or blame Peterson for stuff Herm screwed up. This team has had 6 wins in 2 seasons, and for some reason, the critics will all have you believe that Herm is 100% responsible for that.

No you cant blame just one party, that I agree with... It took BOTH Herm and Carl to create this mess... Therefore, BOTH should be removed... Carl for some decisions and Herm for not being able to develop those players and for not forcing Carl to address the OL... Turley and Welborne for example...

Reerun_KC
12-23-2008, 11:52 PM
Which is funny, because I have said many times that I think he should be fired.

Dude, just :Poke: at you...

chiefzilla1501
12-23-2008, 11:57 PM
No you cant blame just one party, that I agree with... It took BOTH Herm and Carl to create this mess... Therefore, BOTH should be removed... Carl for some decisions and Herm for not being able to develop those players and for not forcing Carl to address the OL... Turley and Welborne for example...

And that's fine. Not to mention committing to Brodie Croyle.

I'm fine with all that (even though people say I'm a Herm homer, for some reason).

But there are plenty (not you) that will pretend that 100% of the problems in KC are due to Herm Edwards. I think there's strong evidence to suggest that with the team Carl handed over in 2006, with reports that he was the one holding back the rebuild, it's most likely that he's about 75% responsible and Herm 25% responsible.

That's still 25% too much. But it at least takes away the notion that Herm is responsible for everything wrong in KC right now.

Reerun_KC
12-24-2008, 12:02 AM
That's still 25% too much. But it at least takes away the notion that Herm is responsible for everything wrong in KC right now.

No but when your fan base thinks it was one of the worse possible good ol boy hires and when he comes in and bashes what was left of our prized offense, it pissed people off...

His bold brash style of running his man pleaser about the circus offense and he was going to fix the defense, because he knew he could? Well that didnt set well with some...

I for one have been a Herm basher since the day he was hired. I never liked his style in NYJ and he has been atrocious here on gamedays...

I will be thrilled when he is gone and the last of Carl's regein of Terror is over...

Darth CarlSatan
12-24-2008, 12:05 AM
Lack of talent? He said that after he just spent he whole article arguing about the talent that Herm is developing?

3 years is more than enough to completely rebuild 31 of 32 franchises... To bad that 1 franchise cant properly rebuild...

No shit; this guy weakly meanders through the whole ball of wax, and then at the very end; SURPRISE!

(MEDIA)"ENTIRE TEAM BUS-CHUCK"!ROFLROFLROFL

Claythan; bitch-slap that asshole across the face with a leather glove like the European Nobles of old; he deserves nothing less.

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2008, 12:14 AM
bitch-slap that asshole across the face with a leather glove like the European Nobles of old

This is why we get along. We're old school.

DeezNutz
12-24-2008, 12:16 AM
I don't have the energy to debate whether or not Herm should stay or be fired. Only KC fans would try to make a case for the former. It's sad, really.

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2008, 12:18 AM
I don't have the energy to debate whether or not Herm should stay or be fired. Only KC fans would try to make a case for the former. It's sad, really.

I actually think there is some merit to keeping Herm...just a bit...a tiny little amount...not much...a smidge.

Then there's a WHOLE LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT SUGGESTS HE SHOULD BE CANNED LIKE TUNA.

Darth CarlSatan
12-24-2008, 12:29 AM
I actually think there is some merit to keeping Herm...just a bit...a tiny little amount...not much...a smidge.

Then there's a WHOLE LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT SUGGESTS HE SHOULD BE CANNED LIKE TUNA.

This.

Darth CarlSatan
12-24-2008, 12:30 AM
This is why we get along. We're old school.

Did he actually WANT to take that side of the debate?

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2008, 12:32 AM
Did he actually WANT to take that side of the debate?

I'm not going to slam Pat, DCS. I respect his opinion. I don't agree with it but he is entitled to it. I see merit in parts of his argument. At least he isn't spooning with Chad Pennington.

Darth CarlSatan
12-24-2008, 12:39 AM
I'm not going to slam Pat, DCS. I respect his opinion. I don't agree with it but he is entitled to it. I see merit in parts of his argument. At least he isn't spooning with Chad Pennington.

I get that, I just want to know if that's truly how he feels? He makes a good point here and there, but seriously; three years is a decade in NFL time.

No hate, no hate; just curiosity.

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2008, 12:41 AM
I get that, I just want to know if that's truly how he feels? He makes a good point here and there, but seriously; three years is a decade in NFL time.

No hate, no hate; just curiosity.

Yeah that's how he truly feels. He's been very positive all season.

Otter
12-24-2008, 12:43 AM
Shouldn't this article have a "Conclusion" section?

Der Flöprer
12-24-2008, 12:44 AM
Shouldn't this article have a "Conclusion" section?

In my debut for WPI I'm finishing the article. Here's a sneak peak.


In conclusion, some people will think you're a dumbass if you want Herm to stay. Some will think you're a dumbass if you want him to go. Bottom line, at the end of the day, it is what it is. Someone thinks you're a dumbass.

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2008, 12:44 AM
Shouldn't this article have a "Conclusion" section?

No, this isn't fucking English 101.

Otter
12-24-2008, 12:46 AM
In my debut for WPI I'm finishing the article. Here's a sneak peak.


In conclusion, some people will think you're a dumbass if you want Herm to stay. Some will think you're a dumbass if you want him to go. Bottom line, at the end of the day, it is what it is. Someone thinks you're a dumbass.

ROFL

Thank you. I needed closure after reading all that.

Der Flöprer
12-24-2008, 12:57 AM
In my debut for WPI I'm finishing the article. Here's a sneak peak.


In conclusion, some people will think you're a dumbass if you want Herm to stay. Some will think you're a dumbass if you want him to go. Bottom line, at the end of the day, it is what it is. Someone thinks you're a dumbass.

No, this isn't fucking English 101.

I was waiting for you to tell me that was premium content and to remove it immediately. :D

Tiger's Fan
12-24-2008, 01:19 AM
Which is funny, because I have said many times that I think he should be fired.

You need more sides of your mouth to talk out of.

Darth CarlSatan
12-24-2008, 01:27 AM
In my debut for WPI I'm finishing the article. Here's a sneak peak.


In conclusion, some people will think you're a dumbass if you want Herm to stay. Some will think you're a dumbass if you want him to go. Bottom line, at the end of the day, it is what it is. Someone thinks you're a dumbass.

You're hired!

No, this isn't fucking English 101.

Be nice; it's a valid point.

I was waiting for you to tell me that was premium content and to remove it immediately. :D

Yeah; what up wit dat subscription shit? Not to be an asshole, but I've got WPI on my Speed Dial and I went there tonight for shits and giggles, and the 'Roundtable'-thing caught my eye. I hit the link, and the motherfucker said give me $$$$, bitch!
You gotta' entice a brother better than that, yo!

RustShack
12-24-2008, 02:00 AM
And I will repeatedly point out that in those three years, he had a General Manager who outright refused to make the moves rebuilding teams should make to turn the team around.

Again, I stand behind getting rid of Herm, but people keep bringing up wins/losses and the failed rebuild without fairly analyzing the situation he was put in.

Oh Herm skipped out on draft day the first two years?

Dylan
12-24-2008, 02:09 AM
Eric Mangini is in a similar situation. If Mangini can't coach the Jets to win Sun against Miami and get his team to the playoffs, the N.Y. media wants him fired. The is pressure is on -- He better make the SP. If not, he's life will never be the same. lol

As one reporter noted, "And if he doesn’t take some chances and find a way to mix up his play calls to give his players an opportunity to gain some confidence, it won’t really matter. The Jets will not have any chance to make a run at or into the postseason."

Bob Glauber, Newsday:
That it has come to this after an 8-3 start is additional evidence that Favre is simply too old to do it, and that coach Eric Mangini is in over his head and should not be retained if the Jets don’t make the playoffs.

Mike Vaccaro, New York Post:
Forget the record, now 9-6: It lies. Forget those wins at New England and Tennessee, games that happened so long ago it’s possible Gerry Philbin and George Sauer made the game-winning plays in them. Forget the optical illusion that next week brings. The Patriots aren’t losing. The Ravens aren’t losing. The Jets are as dead as Lehman Brothers.

Philip Bondy, New York Daily News
It doesn't take a Mangenius to see Eric's shortcomings as Jets' coach. All season long, Eric Mangini has flatly drummed home his message about consistency and closing. Those are two of his big words, and they soon may be used to condemn the coach whose job is very much hanging in the balance on Sunday.

George Willis, New York Daily News
It would be hard to justify his return if the Jets, once 8-3 and conjuring talk of reaching the Super Bowl, complete their stunning collapse by losing to Chad Pennington and the hated Fish. It would mean a 9-7 season and no playoff berth and lots of questions about Mangini's leadership in this, the third year of his four-year contract.

Mangini was thrown off balance today when asked by testy reporters to explain his game plan. Tell if this game plan doesn't sound familiar:

Darth CarlSatan
12-24-2008, 02:16 AM
Nice.

Dylan
12-24-2008, 02:21 AM
Steve Serby, New York Post

Erratic playcalling from Schottenheimer, dating back to running Thomas Jones three straight times inside the 5 against the Pats in Week 2, to the disappearance of Laveranues Coles and Jerricho Cotchery .

Mindless deployment of personnel - Leon Washington, the one weapon who terrifies defensive coordinators, gets one carry against the Bills and scores on a 47-yard touchdown run.

Failing to help his beleaguered defensive coordinator, Bob Sutton, manufacture a pass rush to help that flailing secondary.

Failing to motivate his zombies.

Mangini hardly helped himself with a trifecta of in-game decisions in Seattle that reeked of timidity or cluelessness, or both.

He may have lost the game, his team and the season on the first drive, when the Jets were imposing their will on the Seahawks and faced fourth-and-1 at the 2. Bill Parcells goes for it. Belichick goes for it. Mangini kicks the field goal.

"I anticipated the game being tight, and I thought at that point, being the opening drive, the important thing would be to get points," he said. "I wasn't sure how much the weather would continue to worsen as we went. I really felt like it could come down to three points, so I wanted to get the points on the board at that point, figuring that we had a long time to go, but that was the important thing there."

Why think negatively? Why think the game could be close? Why not try to blow out a 3-11 team? Why not send your team an inspiring message, that you had confidence in Jones, the leading rusher in the AFC, to gain that lousy yard behind what Jones believes is the best offensive line in the game? A field goal in that spot is almost deflating.

So now he had his close game, and following a grievous delay-of-game penalty that took Jay Feely's 45-yard field goal early in the fourth quarter off the board, Mangini, down 10-3, elected to punt. Feely had made 13 consecutive field goals.

"I felt like a 50-yard field goal, if you miss that field goal, you're putting them in very good position," Mangini said.

But even if Feely misses the field goal, why be afraid to trust your defense against ... Seneca Wallace? Seneca Wallace!

Finally, fourth-and-2 at his 20, down 10-3, 2:21 and all three timeouts left, Mangini goes for it. Are you kidding me? Another example of being scared of your defense. Against Seneca Wallace! Instead of a safe pass for the first down, Favre heaves one downfield into double coverage that should have been, but wasn't, caught by Coles.

Now Judgment Day.

Here's the whole article: http://www.nypost.com/seven/12232008/sports/jets/jets_gotta_win_or_its_time_to_deep_six_e_145490.htm?page=2

So yes, Herm should be fired... 2-22. You can't go through this another year. I know I can't.

I hope Lia has the family ready to go. Monday is right around the corner.

And to all a good nite.

Dylan
12-24-2008, 02:22 AM
Nice.

Read the second post. Lord have Mercy.

OMG, I have to wake up soon. LMAO

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2008, 02:25 AM
The funny thing about all that Mangini crap...yes, that's epic failure...the Chiefs are SO FAR AWAY from that point it's just another strike against Herm.

Darth CarlSatan
12-24-2008, 02:26 AM
Read the second post. Lord have Mercy.

OMG, I have to wake up soon. LMAO

I think someone has polluted the NY water system with "Mello-Yellow".

J Diddy
12-24-2008, 03:13 AM
No, this isn't ****ing English 101.

Perhaps it is preschool creative writing.

TEX
12-24-2008, 09:20 AM
There should be no debate. 2-22 (soon to be 2-23) says it all. Time to go.

BigChiefFan
12-24-2008, 09:22 AM
Point: Herm is attrocious as HC of the Chiefs evidenced by his record.
Counterpoint:None.

ping2000
12-24-2008, 09:38 AM
How could anyone discuss Herm that long without killing themselves? Please die Herm. Debate OVER.

MahiMike
12-24-2008, 10:25 AM
This entire thread is pointless. The new GM will bring his own guy in. Herm knows this and that's why he's told his staff to start packing.

Cart before the horse.

TEX
12-24-2008, 11:13 AM
And I will repeatedly point out that in those three years, he had a General Manager who outright refused to make the moves rebuilding teams should make to turn the team around.

Again, I stand behind getting rid of Herm, but people keep bringing up wins/losses and the failed rebuild without fairly analyzing the situation he was put in.

In spite of all Carl's failures, Herm had plenty of chances to win more and hasn't. He's a terrible game-day coach and despite his famous " You play to win the game" BS line, Edwards plays "not to lose." Because of that in part, he has fostered in a losing culture. He thinks his staff has done a fine job and wants to bring back ALL the defensive coaches on the worst defense in the league. Carl has absolutely nothing to do with any of that. It's clearly time for him to go.

Reerun_KC
12-24-2008, 11:33 AM
Oh Herm skipped out on draft day the first two years?

Actually according to all the Herm supporters, this is true... Carl "FORCED" all those players on draft day upon Herm... Herm is just playing with the Cards that were delt..

But now in 2008, teams are lining up to obtain Herm's services on Draft Day... The NFL commish is allowing the rest of the leagues teams and extra 3 picks in the up comming draft to offset the domination setforth by Herm...

DaneMcCloud
12-24-2008, 11:52 AM
31 of 32 franchises didn't have a 5-10% success rate in the NFL draft from 1999-2005.
31 of 32 franchises weren't deemed to be the oldest team in the NFL before they were forced to rebuild.
31 of 32 franchises didn't have a GM who has a long history of repatching teams instead of rebuilding
Most of the 31 of 32 franchises get top 5 draft picks. In 2005 and 2006, when the Chiefs should have blown the team up and rebuilt, the Chiefs ended up with picks #20 and #22--two picks that have a considerably lower success rate, especially once you get to the second round and beyond

We keep comparing the Chiefs to 31 of 32 other teams, but the situation the Chiefs were put in was far worse than anything I've seen any team encounter since the Titans faced it about 5 years ago. This was a team that during the Vermeil era let the entire roster get to 30+ years of age, whiffed on almost every free agent pickup, drafted at about a 5% success rate, and let the cap balloon close to the limit. Those indicators made failure a given. And worse, the GM held back every effort to blow the team up and start over again.

That's not typical. That is an extremely high level of dysfunction from the front office that is finally being dealt with now.

I'd recommend that you stop trying to point out the obvious to Reerun.

He only sees one thing when evaluating the Chiefs: W/L.

Nothing else matters, so you're wasting your time.

DaneMcCloud
12-24-2008, 11:53 AM
Point: Herm is attrocious as HC of the Chiefs evidenced by his record.
Counterpoint:None.

Yeah, because we all know that the Chiefs are just as talented as the Patriots, Giants, Steelers, Ravens, Panthers, Falcons and Colts.

It's just the head coach that holding them back.

BigChiefFan
12-24-2008, 11:55 AM
THREE YEARS to turn the defense around-FAIL. The 32 defense is indefensable.

Darth CarlSatan
12-24-2008, 12:03 PM
Yeah, because we all know that the Chiefs are just as talented as the Patriots, Giants, Steelers, Ravens, Panthers, Falcons and Colts.

It's just the head coach that holding them back.

Sorry; I have no choice:

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chiefzilla1501
12-24-2008, 12:04 PM
Oh Herm skipped out on draft day the first two years?

The 2006 draft was a disaster. The 2007 draft was on par with what you should expect an NFL team to do when drafting out of the #22 spot. People often forget that it's not like we had an attractive draft position. Out of that draft, we have 4 players who will probably be on the roster 5 years from now: Bowe, Tank, Turk and Herb Taylor. One, Kolby Smith, is borderline.

The 2007 draft wasn't a bad one. You know your fans are getting too choosy when they start acting like the 54th pick in the draft is a slam dunk. Drafting is as much about building quality depth as much as it is about landing a few solid starters.

I think the 2007 draft was decent. Not great, but good enough. And I think with the right coaching, Tank and Turk will both be solid contributors, which would make the draft a good one.

DaneMcCloud
12-24-2008, 12:06 PM
THREE YEARS to turn the defense around-FAIL. The 32 defense is indefensable.

So you honestly expected the defense to improve after trading their best defensive player?

There are some weird expectations around here.

chiefzilla1501
12-24-2008, 12:06 PM
In spite of all Carl's failures, Herm had plenty of chances to win more and hasn't. He's a terrible game-day coach and despite his famous " You play to win the game" BS line, Edwards plays "not to lose." Because of that in part, he has fostered in a losing culture. He thinks his staff has done a fine job and wants to bring back ALL the defensive coaches on the worst defense in the league. Carl has absolutely nothing to do with any of that. It's clearly time for him to go.

Herm is definitely to blame for not wanting his assistants fired, but to say Carl has absolutely nothing to do with any of that is absurd. I think you're forgetting who's the boss of who. If Carl Peterson demanded that Gun be fired after last season, there wasn't anything Herm could do about it.

I don't like Herm's gameday coaching. You're not going to have a hard time convincing me of that. But from a personnel standpoint, I think he's done a good job given the resources he was given.

chiefzilla1501
12-24-2008, 12:12 PM
Eric Mangini is in a similar situation. If Mangini can't coach the Jets to win Sun against Miami and get his team to the playoffs, the N.Y. media wants him fired. The is pressure is on -- He better make the SP. If not, he's life will never be the same. lol

As one reporter noted, "And if he doesn’t take some chances and find a way to mix up his play calls to give his players an opportunity to gain some confidence, it won’t really matter. The Jets will not have any chance to make a run at or into the postseason."

Mangini was thrown off balance today when asked by testy reporters to explain his game plan. Tell if this game plan doesn't sound familiar:

Again, we are trying to pretend that Herm has dealt with the same adversity as other coaches and it's simply not true. The Jets started rebuilding three years ago. They had a top 5 pick in the draft three years ago. Since we all know it generally takes about 2-3 years to get full development out of a player, we can assume that those players like D'Brickishaw and Mangold should have peaked by now, whereas guys like Dorsey and Carr are still learning and improving.

Most importantly, the Jets loaded Mangini with free agent talent. To help Mangini, they gave him Faneca, Favre, Thomas Jones, Kris Jenkins, Calvin Pace, Damion Woody, and Tony Richardson. Most of those guys were blue-chip free agents. That's called giving your head coach a fair chance to compete. The Jets decided immediately after Herm that they were going to rebuild, they immediately started playing youth over experience, and they opened their wallet up to Mangini to get players that he wanted.

RustShack
12-24-2008, 12:15 PM
OK OK OK Herm came here to fix the defense and not touch the offense. It takes good coaches three years to turn a team around. Herm couldn't even fix JUST the defense in three years.

chiefzilla1501
12-24-2008, 12:23 PM
OK OK OK Herm came here to fix the defense and not touch the offense. It takes good coaches three years to turn a team around. Herm couldn't even fix JUST the defense in three years.

The difference is that when most new coaches come in, they're allowed to clean house. Herm should have been allowed to blow the team up as soon as he walked in. Instead, Peterson insisted that the team limp on with a team that we knew was getting old. Rather than bring in future-bright free agents, he threw money at third contract veterans whose sole purpose was obviously to extent the limping window 1 or 2 more years. Wasting money on Ty Law and Donnie Edwards, who we knew would only play 2 or 3 years max was absolutely insane.

And so, we got two bad outcomes out of that. Because we insisted on "winning now", we ended up with low draft picks whereas most rebuilding teams get top 5 picks. And we didn't play the young guys as soon as we should. And the free agnets we brought in had a short-term purpose rather than long-term.

Again, to say that this rebuild started 3 years ago ignores the facts. This team should have been blown up years ago. It sounds like Herm wanted to do that, but Peterson resisted. And we know who was wrong on that call.

Reerun_KC
12-24-2008, 01:41 PM
I'd recommend that you stop trying to point out the obvious to Reerun.

He only sees one thing when evaluating the Chiefs: W/L.

Nothing else matters, so you're wasting your time.

Thank you Dane! You save him so much effort in responding...

ROFL

Have a Merry Christmas, and we will miss you when Herm leaves... Thanks for visiting our message board during his tenure and we wish the both of you luck and many years of happiness...

TEX
12-24-2008, 03:01 PM
Herm is definitely to blame for not wanting his assistants fired, but to say Carl has absolutely nothing to do with any of that is absurd. I think you're forgetting who's the boss of who. If Carl Peterson demanded that Gun be fired after last season, there wasn't anything Herm could do about it.

I don't like Herm's gameday coaching. You're not going to have a hard time convincing me of that. But from a personnel standpoint, I think he's done a good job given the resources he was given.

Carl has noting to do with game decisions. I'm not forgetting anything. There is no rational way to defend this coaching staff. They have proven, along with Herm, they are pathetic.

KCBOSS1
12-24-2008, 03:09 PM
Don't know if anybody said this specifically...But to me, here is the reason that Herm goes: If the new GM or Director of Football Operations (whatever he is called) doesn't replace Herm and we have another pathetic year...it seriously puts him behind the eight ball as far as the fans are concerned.

Dylan
12-25-2008, 03:16 AM
Again, we are trying to pretend that Herm has dealt with the same adversity as other coaches and it's simply not true. The Jets started rebuilding three years ago. They had a top 5 pick in the draft three years ago. Since we all know it generally takes about 2-3 years to get full development out of a player, we can assume that those players like D'Brickishaw and Mangold should have peaked by now, whereas guys like Dorsey and Carr are still learning and improving.

Most importantly, the Jets loaded Mangini with free agent talent. To help Mangini, they gave him Faneca, Favre, Thomas Jones, Kris Jenkins, Calvin Pace, Damion Woody, and Tony Richardson. Most of those guys were blue-chip free agents. That's called giving your head coach a fair chance to compete. The Jets decided immediately after Herm that they were going to rebuild, they immediately started playing youth over experience, and they opened their wallet up to Mangini to get players that he wanted.

I apologize. My thoughts were incomplete and arguably misleading jumbled mess.

Here's what I was comparing: NFL coaches agree to a 3-year contract. They're being paid millions to get it right. Nobody likes to lose, especially the fans.

The interesting dilemma facing the Jets, is the possibility that they will miss the playoffs. Eric Mangini is in the third year of a four-year contract. It didn't help matters with questionable calls that cost the Jets (I believe) two games in the past month.

If they lose on Sunday, my guess would be -- Woody Johnson will take action and fire Mangini. It's being reported that most likey, Johnson will blow up the team and rebuilt from scratch.

It's clear in the press, the fans want him out. But, if Mangini wins, all will be forgiven.

Power of the fans.

milkman
12-25-2008, 05:03 AM
Fair enough, but we are not getting better or more talented after 3 drafts...

Honestly, if this team is going to succeed in the future, Carl is already gone, and Herm HAS to go, a long with his staff...

There hasnt been a better time in the last 20 years to dump the whole ****ing thing and start fresh with a new approach to building a franchise/championship team..

Keeping Herm is a slap in the face to the fans and especially the STH's.

zilla makes a lot of valid points, but the fact is that Herman fucking Edwards is the worst coach in the league.

He didn't screw this team up with his personnel decisions.

He screwed it up with his game day decsions.

milkman
12-25-2008, 05:06 AM
I'm sure you will lay down plenty of opinions about how Herm messed up the team. You'll create plenty of lose-lose situations. If Turk McBride becomes a pro bowler, you'll criticize Herm for not coaching him up. If Turk ends up getting cut, you'll criticize Herm for drafting the wrong guy. I know how this works.

I guarantee that in 2-3 years, we'll look back at the foundation herm is leaving behind in 2008 and say that we made a lot of real good personnel decisions. For those that are objective enough, that is, to evaluate the situation fairly.

He has, IMO, made a lot of good personnel decisions.

That, however, isn't enough reason to keep him.

He needs to get the fuck out before he ruins any chance that these kids have of playing up to their potential.

milkman
12-25-2008, 05:10 AM
Very sick of Vermeil being thrown under the bus. Vermeil did not make most personnel decisions. He was a part...but not the final vote, necessarily. That's why teams have a GM. Herm isn't a GM either. Carl is at fault for the talent we have had (or have passed on). Vermeil and Herm are responsible for coaching what they're given. Vermeil did a good job with what he was given AND what he inherited (remember how useless Dante Hall was until Vermeil identified a way to tap his talents?). Herm has done a terrible job with the hand he's bee dealt. Vermeil was always a good coach. Herm has never been a good coach. Does anyone deny that this team would have more wins under a different guy? This all seems to obvious that I'm still amazed that people argue on behalf of Germ.

Dick sucked ass.

He didn't have the final say, but there's no way you can look at that 5 years and not see Dick's influence in the roster decisions.

KCJohnny
12-25-2008, 05:17 AM
Again, to say that this rebuild started 3 years ago ignores the facts. This team should have been blown up years ago. It sounds like Herm wanted to do that, but Peterson resisted. And we know who was wrong on that call.

Good point.

milkman
12-25-2008, 05:26 AM
Yeah, because we all know that the Chiefs are just as talented as the Patriots, Giants, Steelers, Ravens, Panthers, Falcons and Colts.

It's just the head coach that holding them back.

No, this team isn't as talented as the Pats, Giants, Ravens, Panthers, Falcons and Colts.

However, there have been 3 or 4 games that this team could have won in 2008, and Herman fucking Edwards and his staff have failed to make in game decisions that put this team in the position to win those games.

It's not just the head coach holding them back.

But he, and his staff, sure haven't done a good job of pushing them forward.

Skip Towne
12-25-2008, 09:06 AM
To me, the debate is should Herm be shot or hanged?

MahiMike
12-25-2008, 12:38 PM
Good coaches don't lose half their games by 7 points or less. You need to win at least half these. Case closed.

Count Alex's Losses
12-25-2008, 12:40 PM
Good coaches don't lose half their games by 7 points or less. You need to win at least half these. Case closed. But Herm says it's just the odds that he'll eventually win his share of the close ones! He must be right, he's smart. He has a degree in chemistry!

Darth CarlSatan
12-25-2008, 01:11 PM
zilla makes a lot of valid points, but the fact is that Herman fucking Edwards is the worst coach in the league.

He didn't screw this team up with his personnel decisions.

He screwed it up with his game day decsions.

He has, IMO, made a lot of good personnel decisions.

That, however, isn't enough reason to keep him.

He needs to get the fuck out before he ruins any chance that these kids have of playing up to their potential.

Jesus MM, you're firing on ALL the right cylinders today! REP.

But Herm says it's just the odds that he'll eventually win his share of the close ones! He must be right, he's smart. He has a degree in chemistry!

That motherfucker couldn't get a degree in Advanced Merry Go Round Navigation.

Whoo ha-ha ha...Awww That's it, that's it!
http://www.indamixworldwide.com/html/images/indamix/interviews/Morris%20Day.jpg

Bowser
12-25-2008, 01:44 PM
Merry Christmas to you and yours, Herm!

BigChiefFan
12-25-2008, 03:42 PM
The dude from Miami is a FIRST YEAR HEAD COACH, same with Mike Smith, etc... the excuses are just that, lame ass attempts to find a GLIMMER of something worthwhile Herm has done. Gee, what an argument for the Herm supporters... "but his 32 defense is irreplaceable-whatever will we do?" How will we be able live without his total of 15 wins in three full seasons? Herm Supporters' argument is just blind homerism at it's finest.

Otter
12-25-2008, 07:01 PM
A little good news...

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/AFC/AFC+West/Kansas+City/WWHI/2008/wwhi122408.htm

Head coach Herm Edwards might be standing behind the Chiefs’ decision to inject youth into the roster in an effort to rebuild, but from what we hear, his job is far from safe. Edwards, a loser of 22 of his past 24 games, has some support in Kansas City from owner Clark Hunt, but the recent resignation of GM Carl Peterson — Edwards’ close friend — doesn’t bode well for the coach’s future. Regardless of whom Hunt hires to replace Peterson, the new GM will have plenty of reason to justify cutting Edwards loose. Besides his abysmal record, the coach has mishandled some of the team’s younger talent, especially DT Glenn Dorsey, who we understand has been used in a puzzling capacity during his rookie campaign. Also, Edwards repeatedly has absolved his coaching staff of any blame, instead pointing the finger at his players; in reality, the coaches are as much at fault as anyone for their 2-13 record. When all’s said and done in K.C., it’s very likely that the next GM will want to begin his regime with a fresh head coach in place.

milkman
12-25-2008, 07:08 PM
Besides his abysmal record, the coach has mishandled some of the team’s younger talent, especially DT Glenn Dorsey, who we understand has been used in a puzzling capacity during his rookie campaign.

I've said since the season started that he has been used wrong, but they should should have explained that more.

Why do they understand?

Oh Snap
12-25-2008, 07:13 PM
If a HC can't turn a team around in three years they suck.

the 06 team was DV. Had CP let herm completely rebuild the team from year 1, perhaps we would be a winning team this year?

Gotta give him another chance. This team has gotten alot more competitive as of late. The young guys appear to be coming on.

06 and 07 were to drastically different teams from the one we field today.

milkman
12-25-2008, 07:20 PM
the 06 team was DV. Had CP let herm completely rebuild the team from year 1, perhaps we would be a winning team this year?

Gotta give him another chance. This team has gotten alot more competitive as of late. The young guys appear to be coming on.

06 and 07 were to drastically different teams from the one we field today.

I am just flabbergasted by the sheer idiocy of some fans who can watch Herman fucking Edwards game day coaching and still think that he deserves another chance.

The guy is the biggest dumbass to ever stroll the sidelines, and has proven it over, and over, and over, and........

Yes, the Chiefs have been more competitive, and if not for the failures of him and his staff, they would have won some of those games.

Darth CarlSatan
12-25-2008, 07:28 PM
A little good news...

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/AFC/AFC+West/Kansas+City/WWHI/2008/wwhi122408.htm

Head coach Herm Edwards might be standing behind the Chiefs’ decision to inject youth into the roster in an effort to rebuild, but from what we hear, his job is far from safe. Edwards, a loser of 22 of his past 24 games, has some support in Kansas City from owner Clark Hunt, but the recent resignation of GM Carl Peterson — Edwards’ close friend — doesn’t bode well for the coach’s future. Regardless of whom Hunt hires to replace Peterson, the new GM will have plenty of reason to justify cutting Edwards loose. Besides his abysmal record, the coach has mishandled some of the team’s younger talent, especially DT Glenn Dorsey, who we understand has been used in a puzzling capacity during his rookie campaign. Also, Edwards repeatedly has absolved his coaching staff of any blame, instead pointing the finger at his players; in reality, the coaches are as much at fault as anyone for their 2-13 record. When all’s said and done in K.C., it’s very likely that the next GM will want to begin his regime with a fresh head coach in place.

It's good to see that KC fans are not the ONLY people who can see the big picture.

Darth CarlSatan
12-25-2008, 07:31 PM
I am just flabbergasted by the sheer idiocy of some fans who can watch Herman fucking Edwards game day coaching and still think that he deserves another chance.

The guy is the biggest dumbass to ever stroll the sidelines, and has proven it over, and over, and over, and........

Yes, the Chiefs have been more competitive, and if not for the failures of him and his staff, they would have won some of those games.

Prior to Herm, I never had a real reason to study coaching in the NFL. Now, I know more than I ever wanted to.
He's a fascinating case study in ineptitude, but I've had all of this "class" I care for.
NEXT!

bowener
12-25-2008, 07:41 PM
I have a simple argument for the first point raised, that it wouldn't be fair given the state of the team when he got here.

He was hired knowing the circumstances. He was expected to take what we had, add some pieces to it, and succeed. It did not seem that, until we started losing, he claimed to want to go entirely youth, not just Vets in key spots with youth.

That isn't the point. The point is this is the NFL, you have to win now. If a coach cannot adapt their beliefs and styles to each team they go to, then they don't stand a chance. I am of the belief that the coach should come in and take what they have and make it work. Herm commented several times on the age of the team. He also realized it was a team built around the pass, not the bulldozing run game he wants to bore us to death with. He should have either immediately made this "his team" and started dumping old men for youth, or he should of picked up the phone and started making calls to get winners on the team to push it over the edge to victory. He did neither. He let the ship aimlessly wander the course until it shipwrecked itself in Indy, which wasn't "his" fault, that we can be sure of... oh god the futility. Do you remember the first fucking half? Jesus, kill me!

The first year was a wash. He ran LJ into the ground, and did nothing to help this team. Had he tried to actually do something the first year and we were where we are now, last year, then I would have let him stay on for this season. But he does not get another season. He showed he is incapable of coaching at this level several times. I am not sure which is more sad, that Herm did not see the looming disaster, or that he did nothing to avoid it if he did see it.... all I know is we can do NO WORSE with a new coaching staff, what is there to lose? One or two more games? Herm might pull that off next year if he is allowed to stay.

Better to pull the trigger now than 4 games into the season next year when we are 0-4 and he is blaming Rocky Boiman, starting MLB, for the losses.

Darth CarlSatan
12-25-2008, 07:55 PM
It did not seem that, until we started losing, he claimed to want to go entirely youth, not just Vets in key spots with youth.

Prior to the great Carl Shit-Can of Aught-Eight, I think that in addition to trying to get a bunch of young guys who wouldn't question his judgment, Herm was also trying to set himself up for a long stay with the franchise.

Too bad, so sad; get gone.

whoman69
12-25-2008, 10:52 PM
Let it stop. Not another, its all DVs fault thread. Vermeil wanted to win. With the lack of talent being brought in by the draft we had to go into the FA market. Let's also not forget that DV's first draft we didn't have a pick until the third round. Too often CP was forced to concede that players we brought in by trades were going to have more value than a pick he would have wasted on Kenyaron Fox or Junior Siavii types. Has there been any head coaches who spent so much time in one job that have been helped out so little by the draft as DV? Herm has had three years on the job, and the talent level is nowhere close to being what it was when he took over. DV trusted perhaps too much in veterans. With the rookies we brought in I don't blame him. Its not like the trend hasn't continued with Herm at the helm. Is Donnie Edwards the same player now than when DV let him go? How did Napolean Harris turn out? Its not like we haven't brought in some dud FAs since Herm got here. Difference is we brought in more younger players who are a real reach to ever get to a level where they can be trusted to contribute on a weekly basis.

Here's something that Herm Edwards apparently hasn't learned. "The superior man blames himself. The inferior man blames others." - Don Shula

Count Alex's Losses
12-25-2008, 10:54 PM
What a great quote. I'm stealing it.

Darth CarlSatan
12-25-2008, 10:59 PM
Let it stop. Not another, its all DVs fault thread. Vermeil wanted to win. With the lack of talent being brought in by the draft we had to go into the FA market. Let's also not forget that DV's first draft we didn't have a pick until the third round. Too often CP was forced to concede that players we brought in by trades were going to have more value than a pick he would have wasted on Kenyaron Fox or Junior Siavii types. Has there been any head coaches who spent so much time in one job that have been helped out so little by the draft as DV? Herm has had three years on the job, and the talent level is nowhere close to being what it was when he took over. DV trusted perhaps too much in veterans. With the rookies we brought in I don't blame him. Its not like the trend hasn't continued with Herm at the helm. Is Donnie Edwards the same player now than when DV let him go? How did Napolean Harris turn out? Its not like we haven't brought in some dud FAs since Herm got here. Difference is we brought in more younger players who are a real reach to ever get to a level where they can be trusted to contribute on a weekly basis.

Here's something that Herm Edwards apparently hasn't learned. "The superior man blames himself. The inferior man blames others." - Don Shula

For me, it's not a 'blame game' on Vermeil; the situation that Herm inherited just was what it was. Herm has had 3 years to write his own show, and he and Carl did not operate wisely. It's not like Herm was the first new coach faced with a challenging task.
That's it and nothing more.

Fish
12-26-2008, 12:13 AM
A little good news...

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/AFC/AFC+West/Kansas+City/WWHI/2008/wwhi122408.htm

Head coach Herm Edwards might be standing behind the Chiefs’ decision to inject youth into the roster in an effort to rebuild, but from what we hear, his job is far from safe. Edwards, a loser of 22 of his past 24 games, has some support in Kansas City from owner Clark Hunt, but the recent resignation of GM Carl Peterson — Edwards’ close friend — doesn’t bode well for the coach’s future. Regardless of whom Hunt hires to replace Peterson, the new GM will have plenty of reason to justify cutting Edwards loose. Besides his abysmal record, the coach has mishandled some of the team’s younger talent, especially DT Glenn Dorsey, who we understand has been used in a puzzling capacity during his rookie campaign. Also, Edwards repeatedly has absolved his coaching staff of any blame, instead pointing the finger at his players; in reality, the coaches are as much at fault as anyone for their 2-13 record. When all’s said and done in K.C., it’s very likely that the next GM will want to begin his regime with a fresh head coach in place.

Carl Peterson — Edwards’ close friend?

ROFL lol what?

chiefzilla1501
12-26-2008, 06:56 AM
For me, it's not a 'blame game' on Vermeil; the situation that Herm inherited just was what it was. Herm has had 3 years to write his own show, and he and Carl did not operate wisely. It's not like Herm was the first new coach faced with a challenging task.
That's it and nothing more.

I'll keep making this same point until people stop making that argument.The situation Herm was handed was definitely not like the one handed to Vermeil, and definitely not even close to any other situation any other team like Sparano or Mike Smith, etc... faced on their respective squads.

Again, the Chiefs prior to Herm Edwards getting hired were the oldest team in the NFL and had about a 15% success rate in the draft for the 5 years prior. I'm pretty sure they were the bottom of the heap in both dimensions, which makes the Chiefs very uniquely bad. Worse, while most new coaches are allowed to blow up a limping team, Peterson insisted that Herm "win now". Need evidence of that? Explain why a team that is rebuilding signs Donnie Edwards, Ty Law, and Damion McIntosh--third contract players.

Keep in mind that when Vermeil came into town, he inherited a fairly young team with a lot of cap space (the Chiefs "rebuilt" during the Gunther Cunningham head coaching era). Vermeil > Herm. And Herm's gameday decisions probably don't earn him the right to come back, but we need to quit acting like he's the main reason this team hasn't rebuilt in 3 years. The situation Carl Peterson gave Herm Edwards was far worse than any situation I've seen in a very long time.

chiefzilla1501
12-26-2008, 07:20 AM
I have a simple argument for the first point raised, that it wouldn't be fair given the state of the team when he got here.

He was hired knowing the circumstances. He was expected to take what we had, add some pieces to it, and succeed. It did not seem that, until we started losing, he claimed to want to go entirely youth, not just Vets in key spots with youth.

That isn't the point. The point is this is the NFL, you have to win now. If a coach cannot adapt their beliefs and styles to each team they go to, then they don't stand a chance. I am of the belief that the coach should come in and take what they have and make it work. Herm commented several times on the age of the team. He also realized it was a team built around the pass, not the bulldozing run game he wants to bore us to death with. He should have either immediately made this "his team" and started dumping old men for youth, or he should of picked up the phone and started making calls to get winners on the team to push it over the edge to victory. He did neither. He let the ship aimlessly wander the course until it shipwrecked itself in Indy, which wasn't "his" fault, that we can be sure of... oh god the futility. Do you remember the first ****ing half? Jesus, kill me!

The first year was a wash. He ran LJ into the ground, and did nothing to help this team. Had he tried to actually do something the first year and we were where we are now, last year, then I would have let him stay on for this season. But he does not get another season. He showed he is incapable of coaching at this level several times. I am not sure which is more sad, that Herm did not see the looming disaster, or that he did nothing to avoid it if he did see it.... all I know is we can do NO WORSE with a new coaching staff, what is there to lose? One or two more games? Herm might pull that off next year if he is allowed to stay.

Better to pull the trigger now than 4 games into the season next year when we are 0-4 and he is blaming Rocky Boiman, starting MLB, for the losses.

Bowener, you're assuming Herm Edwards actually had the power to make personnel decisions. First of all, Peterson was Herm's boss, not the other way around. It was Peterson who signed off on any personnel/staffing decisions.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=1326
And this backs the pretty well-accepted notion that Herm wanted to rebuild earlier, but Peterson did not. No personnel decision is made without Peterson signing off on it. The head coach is accountable for gameday mistakes because the buck stops with him. The GM is accountable for personnel mistakes because he is the one who has to sign off on any of those decisions.

Darth CarlSatan
12-26-2008, 09:05 AM
I'll keep making this same point until people stop making that argument.The situation Herm was handed was definitely not like the one handed to Vermeil, and definitely not even close to any other situation any other team like Sparano or Mike Smith, etc... faced on their respective squads.

Again, the Chiefs prior to Herm Edwards getting hired were the oldest team in the NFL and had about a 15% success rate in the draft for the 5 years prior. I'm pretty sure they were the bottom of the heap in both dimensions, which makes the Chiefs very uniquely bad. Worse, while most new coaches are allowed to blow up a limping team, Peterson insisted that Herm "win now". Need evidence of that? Explain why a team that is rebuilding signs Donnie Edwards, Ty Law, and Damion McIntosh--third contract players.

Keep in mind that when Vermeil came into town, he inherited a fairly young team with a lot of cap space (the Chiefs "rebuilt" during the Gunther Cunningham head coaching era). Vermeil > Herm. And Herm's gameday decisions probably don't earn him the right to come back, but we need to quit acting like he's the main reason this team hasn't rebuilt in 3 years. The situation Carl Peterson gave Herm Edwards was far worse than any situation I've seen in a very long time.

Even if we take your point in to account, that still doesn't do anything for Herm's god-awful field generalship.

BigChiefFan
12-26-2008, 09:16 AM
$9 million spent on Herm says he's had THREE FULL YEARS, you Homers are in DENIAL.

whoman69
12-26-2008, 10:23 AM
I'll keep making this same point until people stop making that argument.The situation Herm was handed was definitely not like the one handed to Vermeil, and definitely not even close to any other situation any other team like Sparano or Mike Smith, etc... faced on their respective squads.

Again, the Chiefs prior to Herm Edwards getting hired were the oldest team in the NFL and had about a 15% success rate in the draft for the 5 years prior. I'm pretty sure they were the bottom of the heap in both dimensions, which makes the Chiefs very uniquely bad. Worse, while most new coaches are allowed to blow up a limping team, Peterson insisted that Herm "win now". Need evidence of that? Explain why a team that is rebuilding signs Donnie Edwards, Ty Law, and Damion McIntosh--third contract players.

Keep in mind that when Vermeil came into town, he inherited a fairly young team with a lot of cap space (the Chiefs "rebuilt" during the Gunther Cunningham head coaching era). Vermeil > Herm. And Herm's gameday decisions probably don't earn him the right to come back, but we need to quit acting like he's the main reason this team hasn't rebuilt in 3 years. The situation Carl Peterson gave Herm Edwards was far worse than any situation I've seen in a very long time.

Of course Vermeil is going to go with vets with the draft picks he kept getting. That last team of Vermeil still had more talent than any team that Herm has fielded. They still haven't put in an adequate replacement for Roaf and Shields. He also blew up what was the most successful part of the team. Herm took this team from day 1 and built it into his image. Ask Mike Solari what happens when you don't settle for a FG instead of trying to get a TD. Ask yourself if you knew the draw play was coming again on all those 3rd and 8s, that is until the game was out of reach. Herm put this team in a system destined to fail. The supposed youth movement rebuild was smoke and mirrors. We didn't rebuild, we tore down. Most of the wannabe's that were brought in for this year were never going to be a long term or even short term answer. Bringing in a young guy just because he's a young guy is just wrong. You bring in the guys who can help the team win. Pat Thomas and Tavares Washington are never going to help this team win.

dallaschiefsfan
12-26-2008, 10:54 AM
Dick sucked ass.

He didn't have the final say, but there's no way you can look at that 5 years and not see Dick's influence in the roster decisions.

Excuse me?!? Dick sucked ass as a coach?!? Seriously? The subject of my post was evaluating Herm and DV as a COACH. Herm is awful...an abortion of a coach. At least DV got the most of the talent on the side of the ball he was known for. Herm has done S*** with the defense...again...because he is horrible as anything except as a secondary coach.

dallaschiefsfan
12-26-2008, 10:56 AM
I'd recommend that you stop trying to point out the obvious to Reerun.

He only sees one thing when evaluating the Chiefs: W/L.

Nothing else matters, so you're wasting your time.

Righhhhht. Because caring about W/L is a BAD thing. You play to play "the right way"...the Herm way. Losses shouldn't matter as long as the game is played right. :banghead:

chiefzilla1501
12-26-2008, 11:06 AM
Even if we take your point in to account, that still doesn't do anything for Herm's god-awful field generalship.

I have never apologized for gameday decisions. I think he's a lousy gameday coach. But people want to blame him for personnel problems too and those are largely the fault of Peterson.

dallaschiefsfan
12-26-2008, 11:07 AM
I'll keep making this same point until people stop making that argument.The situation Herm was handed was definitely not like the one handed to Vermeil, and definitely not even close to any other situation any other team like Sparano or Mike Smith, etc... faced on their respective squads.

Again, the Chiefs prior to Herm Edwards getting hired were the oldest team in the NFL and had about a 15% success rate in the draft for the 5 years prior. I'm pretty sure they were the bottom of the heap in both dimensions, which makes the Chiefs very uniquely bad. Worse, while most new coaches are allowed to blow up a limping team, Peterson insisted that Herm "win now". Need evidence of that? Explain why a team that is rebuilding signs Donnie Edwards, Ty Law, and Damion McIntosh--third contract players.

Keep in mind that when Vermeil came into town, he inherited a fairly young team with a lot of cap space (the Chiefs "rebuilt" during the Gunther Cunningham head coaching era). Vermeil > Herm. And Herm's gameday decisions probably don't earn him the right to come back, but we need to quit acting like he's the main reason this team hasn't rebuilt in 3 years. The situation Carl Peterson gave Herm Edwards was far worse than any situation I've seen in a very long time.

None of this matters. If I accept your premise that Herm was dealt a different hand then DV (be it both circumstances, players, power, etc.), then I still don't see how you see Herm as anything put horrible. IF I accept your premise in its entirety, then Herm is instantly fleeced for being one of the worst decision-makers (off the field in this case...but consistent with his on the field decision making) in the history of contract negotiations. He already had a job in New York and did not NEED the KC job. It's Herm's own damn fault for accepting the conditions under your premise. That is HIS failure. Not Carl's...not Lamar's...just Herm.

Herm makes excuses...and you and others have joined in.

Darth CarlSatan
12-26-2008, 11:10 AM
I have never apologized for gameday decisions. I think he's a lousy gameday coach. But people want to blame him for personnel problems too and those are largely the fault of Peterson.

That's probably because of things said by outside sources, primarily those from Tampa and New York.

The bottom line is that regardless of who is more to blame, it's over.

All over.

chiefzilla1501
12-26-2008, 11:17 AM
Of course Vermeil is going to go with vets with the draft picks he kept getting. That last team of Vermeil still had more talent than any team that Herm has fielded. They still haven't put in an adequate replacement for Roaf and Shields. He also blew up what was the most successful part of the team. Herm took this team from day 1 and built it into his image. Ask Mike Solari what happens when you don't settle for a FG instead of trying to get a TD. Ask yourself if you knew the draw play was coming again on all those 3rd and 8s, that is until the game was out of reach. Herm put this team in a system destined to fail. The supposed youth movement rebuild was smoke and mirrors. We didn't rebuild, we tore down. Most of the wannabe's that were brought in for this year were never going to be a long term or even short term answer. Bringing in a young guy just because he's a young guy is just wrong. You bring in the guys who can help the team win. Pat Thomas and Tavares Washington are never going to help this team win.

You're acting like this wouldn't have happened to any other coach. You really think that with Green, Priest, Roaf, Shields, T-Rich, Welbourn, Wiegmann, Gonzalez, Surtain, Kennison, and Wesley all getting old (hitting 30+) that any other coach wouldn't have had to tear down? And you don't think that a big reason why the Chiefs' offense was blown up was the fact that the Chiefs lost 4 pro bowlers (Shields, Roaf, Priest, Waters) and a borderline pro bowler (Green)? And when you argue that they haven't found a replacement for Roaf or Shields, who's fault is that? I would argue that that was Peterson's fault BIG TIME for not finding good, young backups for them through the draft between 1999-2005. So saying that this team was "tore down" ignores the fact that this team was going to self-destruct regardless of the coach. And that problem was made worse because Peterson insisted that instead of immediately blowing the team up, he wanted to limp on with used, aging parts.

Secondly, when you blame Herm for playing guys like Pat Thomas, you should ask yourself why the team was ever in a position to have over 15 holes. And how any team could reasonably fill 15 holes in one offseason.

Finally, I've never apologized for his gameday decisions and largely conservative coaching. So we agree on that.

whoman69
12-26-2008, 03:40 PM
You can't have it both ways to say that Herm has no control over the personnel and then say that DV ruined the team because of the personnel that he left them. I don't believe that any GM makes 100% of the personnel decisions or that a HC has no input. Recent history has proved that any coach given the double task of running the team on the field and putting the personnel in place has been less than successful. Any GM who is going to ignore the advice of someone who has spent years watching these guys on the field and who will be the first guy fired when things go wrong deserves what he gets. They are going to make their own call on occassion and go with their gut. If I had to guess then CP is somone who goes with his gut on draft day, and his gut has been very wrong. There is a level of control in any coach-GM relationship, but it has to be a partnership or it will run aground very early (see Oakland Raiders). In a healthy coach-GM partnership the coach is going to sign off on the personnel decisions.

chiefzilla1501
12-26-2008, 03:56 PM
You can't have it both ways to say that Herm has no control over the personnel and then say that DV ruined the team because of the personnel that he left them. I don't believe that any GM makes 100% of the personnel decisions or that a HC has no input. Recent history has proved that any coach given the double task of running the team on the field and putting the personnel in place has been less than successful. Any GM who is going to ignore the advice of someone who has spent years watching these guys on the field and who will be the first guy fired when things go wrong deserves what he gets. They are going to make their own call on occassion and go with their gut. If I had to guess then CP is somone who goes with his gut on draft day, and his gut has been very wrong. There is a level of control in any coach-GM relationship, but it has to be a partnership or it will run aground very early (see Oakland Raiders). In a healthy coach-GM partnership the coach is going to sign off on the personnel decisions.

Point to me a single time I EVER said Dick Vermeil ruined the Chiefs. I liked Vermeil. But there is no disputing that the front office, with some of Vermeil's input, whiffed on almost every draft pick and most free agent signings post 2000.

Does a GM make 100% of the decisions? No. But he signs off on almost all of them. And there have been reports that suggested that Herm wanted to rebuild, and Peterson did not. And when the head coach wants something and the GM does not, there's nothing a head coach can do about it. Because the GM is the boss of the head coach, not the other way around. You're absolutely right that the GM-Head Coach relationship is very important. But reports indicate that Herm/CP grew further and further apart, and I'm sure Peterson's reluctance to rebuild was a large part of it. I think it's telling that Hunt has been reluctant to back CP but he's been pretty vocal in his support of Herm. There are just too many stories circulating that lead us to believe that Peterson was making a lot of decisions that Herm disapproved of. And when a GM exerts that kind of power, there's nothing much you can do.

chiefsngop
12-26-2008, 05:13 PM
Point : Herm took over an old old football team with basically no defense, and had to work under a GM who saw no problem with that. And it's true that he's only had one real year of rebuilding during his tenure here.

Counter Point : Even if he had a team full of great youthful talent, Herm would still be a terrible clock manager, poor game manager, he'd still go to prevent defense and offense with the smallest of leads, and he'd still demand the use of an outdated Tampa 2 even without the players to pull it off.

___________________

This is why even if the Chiefs do pull off this rebuild, and end up with fantastic young players on both sides of the ball, Herm still must go.

chiefzilla1501
12-26-2008, 05:30 PM
Bullseye

Point : Herm took over an old old football team with basically no defense, and had to work under a GM who saw no problem with that. And it's true that he's only had one real year of rebuilding during his tenure here.

Counter Point : Even if he had a team full of great youthful talent, Herm would still be a terrible clock manager, poor game manager, he'd still go to prevent defense and offense with the smallest of leads, and he'd still demand the use of an outdated Tampa 2 even without the players to pull it off.

___________________

This is why even if the Chiefs do pull off this rebuild, and end up with fantastic young players on both sides of the ball, Herm still must go.

mlyonsd
12-26-2008, 05:48 PM
To me, in reality, both Gunther and Herm must go.

Extra Point
12-26-2008, 06:02 PM
To me, in reality, both Gunther and Herm must go.
Agreed

jidar
12-26-2008, 06:24 PM
Nobody knows if Herm is staying or not. It will be up to the new GM, whoever he is.

chiefzilla1501
12-26-2008, 06:27 PM
None of this matters. If I accept your premise that Herm was dealt a different hand then DV (be it both circumstances, players, power, etc.), then I still don't see how you see Herm as anything put horrible. IF I accept your premise in its entirety, then Herm is instantly fleeced for being one of the worst decision-makers (off the field in this case...but consistent with his on the field decision making) in the history of contract negotiations. He already had a job in New York and did not NEED the KC job. It's Herm's own damn fault for accepting the conditions under your premise. That is HIS failure. Not Carl's...not Lamar's...just Herm.

Herm makes excuses...and you and others have joined in.

Herm probably knew the condition of the team. Could he have anticipated that the GM would refuse to listen to his coach and not rebuild the team as he should, especially after the GM was known to have good relationships with his former Head Coaches? Probably not. This is yet another case of deflecting Peterson's mistakes onto Herm. Arguably, you're making excuses for Carl Peterson, which I think is far worse.

If Herm walked into a situation where he was given full resources to rebuild, then it was not a bad place to coach. For whatever reason, Peterson refused to extend those resources which made turning the team around almost impossible.

BigChiefFan
12-26-2008, 06:27 PM
Nobody knows if Herm is staying or not. It will be up to the new GM, whoever he is.
It's not real hard to connect the dots. A good GM will kick Herm's ass to the curb. A few looks at his gameday management skills will be enough for any competent man to see, he's certainly not very good. Add his record to that and I think the chances of Herm staying are slim to none.

Halfcan
12-26-2008, 07:49 PM
Anyone who think Herm is a good coach should put on a Santa suit and kill themselves.

Darth CarlSatan
12-26-2008, 07:59 PM
Point : Herm took over an old old football team with basically no defense, and had to work under a GM who saw no problem with that. And it's true that he's only had one real year of rebuilding during his tenure here.

Counter Point : Even if he had a team full of great youthful talent, Herm would still be a terrible clock manager, poor game manager, he'd still go to prevent defense and offense with the smallest of leads, and he'd still demand the use of an outdated Tampa 2 even without the players to pull it off.

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This is why even if the Chiefs do pull off this rebuild, and end up with fantastic young players on both sides of the ball, Herm still must go.

Bingo. Rep!

To me, in reality, both Gunther and Herm must go.

That's a given, but let's work Haitian Voodoo in our spare time to insure a greater probability.