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Discuss Thrower
01-04-2009, 12:00 AM
So, I was recounting my exploits last night at a casino (in which I borrowed some money of his, came back with $20 of profit) in which I and a few friends did nothing but play Blackjack.

Early on I expressed my history of doubling down on a hard twelve and how it paid out for me at another casino, and sure enough, I had two hard twelve hands. I doubled on the first and won (forgot the third card), and stood on the second, which gave the dealer a 9 (IIRC, the dealer won). My father expressed mild disbelief at this fact, and said that had I done that in Vegas I would've been taken out back and beaten because of my play's influence on the rest of the table's odds.

In short, do I resist the urge to double down on a hard twelve in the future to assure my own safety?

DeezNutz
01-04-2009, 12:07 AM
So, I was recounting my exploits last night at a casino (in which I borrowed some money of his, came back with $20 of profit) in which I and a few friends did nothing but play Blackjack.

Early on I expressed my history of doubling down on a hard twelve and how it paid out for me at another casino, and sure enough, I had two hard twelve hands. I doubled on the first and won (forgot the third card), and stood on the second, which gave the dealer a 9 (IIRC, the dealer won). My father expressed mild disbelief at this fact, and said that had I done that in Vegas I would've been taken out back and beaten because of my play's influence on the rest of the table's odds.

In short, do I resist the urge to double down on a hard twelve in the future to assure my own safety?

Yes.

If you're playing at a table with only your friends, do what you want.

If others are there, you need to play the odds, lest you **** it up for everyone. The cliche is true: the table that plays together wins together.

I've never seen the actions of a table maverick lead to blows, but I've seen it draw a VERY heated response from the rest of the players. People cussed him. Others left. Even the dealer had a comment or two b/c he wants to get tipped from winning players.

Bowser
01-04-2009, 12:10 AM
You gotta go with your gut when playing blackjack, but do that based on the vibe of the table. If everyone is having a good time and not ate up, give it a shot.

DeezNutz
01-04-2009, 12:13 AM
You gotta go with your gut when playing blackjack, but do that based on the vibe of the table. If everyone is having a good time and not ate up, give it a shot.

I couldn't disagree more. If you're talking about just having fun, then I guess I see your point.

But blackjack is all about playing the odds and making the "smart" move. Your gut has nothing to do with it. Your odds of winning are bad enough when you step to the table. When you start doing unconventional stuff, the odds start dropping like a rock.

Bowser
01-04-2009, 12:18 AM
I couldn't disagree more. If you're talking about just having fun, then I guess I see your point.

But blackjack is all about playing the odds and making the "smart" move. Your gut has nothing to do with it.

I agree, but it seems I have been served just as well making moves against the grain as playing by the book. I don't make a habit of going 180 against what should be played on any hand all the time, but I do mix it up from time to time. Sometimes it doesn't work, but there's been times the table has been saved, too. Lucky, or good? :)

DeezNutz
01-04-2009, 12:20 AM
I agree, but it seems I have been served just as well making moves against the grain as playing by the book. I don't make a habit of going 180 against what should be played on any hand all the time, but I do mix it up from time to time. Sometimes it doesn't work, but there's been times the table has been saved, too. Lucky, or good? :)

Yeah, I know what you mean. Sometimes I've been smoked quickly making all the "right" moves, and it all seems pretty pointless.

Like they say, Vegas isn't keeping the lights on by accident.

BigRedChief
01-04-2009, 12:28 AM
What about splitting tens against a dealer showing a 5 or a 6?

Bowser
01-04-2009, 12:45 AM
What about splitting tens against a dealer showing a 5 or a 6?

And break up a twenty? That's one I'll never do. That's like splitting a pair of 5's - just don't do it.

I saw a guy in Vegas split a blackjack hand, TWO TIMES IN A ROW. The dealer was laughing and shaking his head, telling us how he had NEVER seen that before. Heh.

Der Flöprer
01-04-2009, 01:37 AM
What about splitting tens against a dealer showing a 5 or a 6?

I don't generally talk shit at the blackjack table, but that is one that lights me up every time.

BigRedChief
01-04-2009, 10:42 AM
I don't generally talk shit at the blackjack table, but that is one that lights me up every time.
There are a lot of proffesional blackjack players that split tens on a dealer 6 showing.

kstater
01-04-2009, 10:49 AM
So, I was recounting my exploits last night at a casino (in which I borrowed some money of his, came back with $20 of profit) in which I and a few friends did nothing but play Blackjack.

Early on I expressed my history of doubling down on a hard twelve and how it paid out for me at another casino, and sure enough, I had two hard twelve hands. I doubled on the first and won (forgot the third card), and stood on the second, which gave the dealer a 9 (IIRC, the dealer won). My father expressed mild disbelief at this fact, and said that had I done that in Vegas I would've been taken out back and beaten because of my play's influence on the rest of the table's odds.

In short, do I resist the urge to double down on a hard twelve in the future to assure my own safety?

I'd kick your ass and I don't even play that fools game.

Saul Good
01-04-2009, 11:25 AM
Yes.

If you're playing at a table with only your friends, do what you want.

If others are there, you need to play the odds, lest you **** it up for everyone. The cliche is true: the table that plays together wins together.

I've never seen the actions of a table maverick lead to blows, but I've seen it draw a VERY heated response from the rest of the players. People cussed him. Others left. Even the dealer had a comment or two b/c he wants to get tipped from winning players.

You have no obligation to kowtow to a group of idiots who are bad at math. The odds are against the player from the moment they sit down at the table. If they are really in it for the return on their investments, they shouldn't be playing in the first place.

Secondly, the card that one player takes/doesn't take affects absolutely nothing. The card he took has no better chance of being the card that the table needs than the card that follows the card he took. Some people just like to bitch.

Discuss Thrower
01-04-2009, 12:07 PM
You have no obligation to kowtow to a group of idiots who are bad at math. The odds are against the player from the moment they sit down at the table. If they are really in it for the return on their investments, they shouldn't be playing in the first place.

Secondly, the card that one player takes/doesn't take affects absolutely nothing. The card he took has no better chance of being the card that the table needs than the card that follows the card he took. Some people just like to bitch.

I hit and took what would've been the dealer's bust card (anything higher than an 8), which allowed him to deal to a winning hand. I fucked the table once before the hard twelve hand, and I'm glad I did it then as I apparently a drug dealer sat down to play and he looked pretty rough.

Saul Good
01-04-2009, 09:09 PM
I hit and took what would've been the dealer's bust card (anything higher than an 8), which allowed him to deal to a winning hand. I ****ed the table once before the hard twelve hand, and I'm glad I did it then as I apparently a drug dealer sat down to play and he looked pretty rough.

There was an equal probability that the card you took would have been a low card and that you would have helped the entire table. People who act like the actions of one player effect the probability of the other players chance of success are idiots.

Discuss Thrower
01-04-2009, 10:02 PM
There was an equal probability that the card you took would have been a low card and that you would have helped the entire table. People who act like the actions of one player effect the probability of the other players chance of success are idiots.

I don't think about the rest of the table, sans the times I'm looking at the cards on the table to get a bearing on what's been dealt out, and how it affects mine and the dealer's hands. My friend is the one who told me I was "fucking the table", otherwise I wouldn't have cared.

beavis
01-05-2009, 03:23 AM
There was an equal probability that the card you took would have been a low card and that you would have helped the entire table. People who act like the actions of one player effect the probability of the other players chance of success are idiots.

Exactly what I was going to post. Any card has just as likely of a chance coming up as any other.

Hoover
01-05-2009, 03:42 AM
I've played with people who double down on a hard twelve. I agree with those who said you need to play the odds. I usually don't care, unless that player is the last guy before the dealer.

Dartgod
01-05-2009, 06:40 AM
You have no obligation to kowtow to a group of idiots who are bad at math. The odds are against the player from the moment they sit down at the table. If they are really in it for the return on their investments, they shouldn't be playing in the first place.

Secondly, the card that one player takes/doesn't take affects absolutely nothing. The card he took has no better chance of being the card that the table needs than the card that follows the card he took. Some people just like to bitch.

There was an equal probability that the card you took would have been a low card and that you would have helped the entire table. People who act like the actions of one player effect the probability of the other players chance of success are idiots.

Exactly what I was going to post. Any card has just as likely of a chance coming up as any other.
These.

Iowanian
01-05-2009, 08:02 AM
Remind me to never play blackjack with several of you.


BRC.
Never split anything that starts with "F"
Fours, Fives and F-ing Faces.

Brock
01-05-2009, 09:12 AM
I don't think about the rest of the table, sans the times I'm looking at the cards on the table to get a bearing on what's been dealt out, and how it affects mine and the dealer's hands. My friend is the one who told me I was "****ing the table", otherwise I wouldn't have cared.

You shouldn't care. You're playing with your money, not theirs.

Saulbadguy
01-05-2009, 09:43 AM
I just get up and leave when people are hitting a 12 or over against a bust card. I generally don't care after that.

Jilly
01-05-2009, 11:36 AM
Against a what?

Mr. Laz
01-05-2009, 12:20 PM
fug'em ....... you're trying to win not help them win.


unless of course you're in a seedy back alley situation in which case you probably should just leave anyway.

Saulbadguy
01-05-2009, 12:31 PM
fug'em ....... you're trying to win not help them win.


unless of course you're in a seedy back alley situation in which case you probably should just leave anyway.

That's the thing, your odds of winning go down when the tables odds of winning goes down. It's the table vs the house, and over a period of time, your odds are better if you play together rather than be a dumbass and play for yourself.

Dartgod
01-05-2009, 12:33 PM
I just get up and leave when people are hitting a 12 or over against a bust card. I generally don't care after that.
Do you hit a 12 when the dealer is showing a 2? You should.

Jilly
01-05-2009, 12:33 PM
That's the thing, your odds of winning go down when the tables odds of winning goes down. It's the table vs the house, and over a period of time, your odds are better if you play together rather than be a dumbass and play for yourself.

exactly...at the table the other night, this guy split his 6's, against a 15...he got sixteen on both hands, one he hit and the other he didn't...why? what he ended up doing was taking the dealer's bust card...was ridiculous

Saulbadguy
01-05-2009, 12:46 PM
Do you hit a 12 when the dealer is showing a 2? You should.

Personal preference - no. I don't hit a 16 against a face either. However I don't believe hitting a 12 gives the table any better chance of winning. I'm probably wrong, statistically, though.

Skip Towne
01-05-2009, 12:46 PM
There was an equal probability that the card you took would have been a low card and that you would have helped the entire table. People who act like the actions of one player effect the probability of the other players chance of success are idiots.

I read a book from the library on blackjack that was written by 3 math professors. They said exactly what you are saying.

Dartgod
01-05-2009, 01:15 PM
Personal preference - no. I don't hit a 16 against a face either. However I don't believe hitting a 12 gives the table any better chance of winning. I'm probably wrong, statistically, though.
You are.
http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack

Saulbadguy
01-05-2009, 01:29 PM
You are.
http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack

Thanks for the link. Going on another cruise here in February, my god, one of these days I will win something on a cruise boat. The odds are just friggin horrible and it feels awful losing your money to a cute eastern european girl, it really does. :shake:

Jilly
01-05-2009, 01:31 PM
Do you hit a 12 when the dealer is showing a 2? You should.

no, I'd rather let him bust

Dartgod
01-05-2009, 01:38 PM
no, I'd rather let him bust
Basic strategy says you should hit a 12 against a dealers 2 or 3.

Think about it like this. There are 9 card ranks that will improve his hand and only 4 that will bust him (if he is showing a 2).

Check out the link I posted in response to Saul.

Here's some more good info, including an explanation of why you should hit a 12 against 2 or 3.

http://www.fringe.com/games/blackjack/10calls.php

Short Leash Hootie
01-05-2009, 04:01 PM
If you're dealt a 9, double 3-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 10, double 2-9, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt an 11, double 2-10, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 12, stay 4-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 13-16, stay 2-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 17-21, Stay. See 99, A6, A7.
If you're dealt an A2, A3, double 5-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt an A4, A5, double 4-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt an A6, double 3-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt an A7, double 3-6, stay 2, 7, 8, Hit A9.
If you're dealt an AA, 88, always split.
If you're dealt a 22, 33 split 2-7, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 44, split 5-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 55, never split, play as 10.
If you're dealt a 66, split 2-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 77, split 2-7, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 99, split 2-6, 8-9, stay 7, 10, A.

Dartgod
01-05-2009, 04:51 PM
If you're dealt a 9, double 3-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 10, double 2-9, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt an 11, double 2-10, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 12, stay 4-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 13-16, stay 2-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 17-21, Stay. See 99, A6, A7.
If you're dealt an A2, A3, double 5-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt an A4, A5, double 4-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt an A6, double 3-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt an A7, double 3-6, stay 2, 7, 8, Hit A9.
If you're dealt an AA, 88, always split.
If you're dealt a 22, 33 split 2-7, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 44, split 5-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 55, never split, play as 10.
If you're dealt a 66, split 2-6, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 77, split 2-7, otherwise hit.
If you're dealt a 99, split 2-6, 8-9, stay 7, 10, A.
Or they could have just clicked on the link I provided 3 hours ago.


Moron...

Crashride
01-05-2009, 07:43 PM
There was an equal probability that the card you took would have been a low card and that you would have helped the entire table. People who act like the actions of one player effect the probability of the other players chance of success are idiots.

It is not equal actually.

It depends what the running count is at that time. Counting cards by giving them values such as -1,0,+1 helps determine what is more LIKELY to come out, therefore increasing you chances to make money. Join card counting with basic strategy and you actually have an advantage OVER the house. This is why people get upset because its proven that even just learning basic strategy improves your chance.

Saul Good
01-05-2009, 08:27 PM
It is not equal actually.

It depends what the running count is at that time. Counting cards by giving them values such as -1,0,+1 helps determine what is more LIKELY to come out, therefore increasing you chances to make money. Join card counting with basic strategy and you actually have an advantage OVER the house. This is why people get upset because its proven that even just learning basic strategy improves your chance.

No, you actually don't. Unless you have the bankroll and the true genius-level of intelligence to pull it off, you're just going to end up busting big time. There's a reason that the people who pulled off the MIT scheme were successful...they were all geniuses backed by millionaires.

That book, "Bringing Down the House" was the best thing to ever happen to Vegas. A bunch of guys on message boards like you thought that they could take $3,000 to a casino with a couple of buddies and count a 6 deck shoe with 8 players at a table. It just doesn't work.

Even if you do understand how to count cards (your post tells me that you probably understand the basic mechanics, but you obviously don't understand what the numbers really mean), there is zero mathematical difference in the likelihood of the next card being a face card versus the second card being a face card.

What one player is about to do makes no statistical difference. You have more information if the player takes another card, but you can gain no advantage by controlling whether another player who plays after you hits or stands.

If you did, the professional counters would have players sitting at the table either hitting or staying just to feed a face card to the dealer. This would only be advantageous if you were shuffle tracking, and that doesn't work with shuffling machines.

Ebolapox
01-05-2009, 08:32 PM
Thanks for the link. Going on another cruise here in February, my god, one of these days I will win something on a cruise boat. The odds are just friggin horrible and it feels awful losing your money to a cute eastern european girl, it really does. :shake:

it doesn't if you poke her in the butt.

Crashride
01-05-2009, 09:00 PM
There was an equal probability that the card you took would have been a low card and that you would have helped the entire table. People who act like the actions of one player effect the probability of the other players chance of success are idiots.

No, you actually don't. Unless you have the bankroll and the true genius-level of intelligence to pull it off, you're just going to end up busting big time. There's a reason that the people who pulled off the MIT scheme were successful...they were all geniuses backed by millionaires.

That book, "Bringing Down the House" was the best thing to ever happen to Vegas. A bunch of guys on message boards like you thought that they could take $3,000 to a casino with a couple of buddies and count a 6 deck shoe with 8 players at a table. It just doesn't work.

Even if you do understand how to count cards (your post tells me that you probably understand the basic mechanics, but you obviously don't understand what the numbers really mean), there is zero mathematical difference in the likelihood of the next card being a face card versus the second card being a face card.

What one player is about to do makes no statistical difference. You have more information if the player takes another card, but you can gain no advantage by controlling whether another player who plays after you hits or stands.

If you did, the professional counters would have players sitting at the table either hitting or staying just to feed a face card to the dealer. This would only be advantageous if you were shuffle tracking, and that doesn't work with shuffling machines.

First off...RELAX!!
Deeeeep Breath...

This is a thread about blackjack etiquette, not different strategy's. That being said not hitting when your supposed to etc...will upset the MAJORITY of players that do follow basic strategy, which is what the thread starter wanted to know. Even the dealers will vocally question any wild moves, hey they want to get tipped too remember?

I agree with some things you said and highlighted the things I couldn't agree on. Although, you are completely correct about needing a bankroll to see the benefit...You DO NOT have to be a genius to count cards whatsoever, you just need a good memory. The fact that you think that, makes me laugh at the remark that "my post obviously shows I dont know what the numbers mean." There are plenty of non-MIT students that can count and show profit. I cant even begin to fathom your statement that there is zero mathematical advantage to counting cards...if that were true why WOULD MIT even play it?

The beautiful thing about blackjack is the fact its a game based on past information. The cards that have already been dealt help make profitable decisions. Does it REALLY matter if someone doesnt hit when they are supposed too? Its simple, NO it doesnt. But if they do hit you have EVEN MORE information, which is profitable for you.

As far as having someone sit at the table and play with you, well that is also a well known strategy, actually. Although its risky and draws even more attention to your sudden winnings, it has been done. Thats a whole other side to blackjack though. Some players claim its the most fun part about the game.

Since most players in casinos are there for fun, and once again were talking about etiquette and not strategy, hit and stay when your supposed to the other players will love ya for it.

P.S. Most players that are considered pro play with normal shoes not the shuffling machine. It would lower there odds and and smart gamblers play when they have the advantage.

KCTitus
01-05-2009, 09:18 PM
Ive played blackjack in a casino exactly 2 times...The first time was at one of the KC 'boats' that arrived in mid 1995. My experience there was most pleasant, and maybe that was because most patrons in KC at the time were not experienced blackjack players, but no one was complaining about players stealing the dealers 'bust' card.

The second time was earlier this year and it will be my last time. As a sure fire blackjack noob, a few months ago I was in St. Louis on business and some coworkers and I went to their new Lumiere casino and I wanted to play blackjack again.

I didnt have designs on actually winning since this was exactly my second time playing, so I scoped out their smallest minimum table and sat down. The table was full and I was in the middle.

Shortly after I sat down, another gentlemen sat to my right and started murmuring about something...after a while, I picked up the fact that he was mad at my play. Granted, I didnt know all the 'basics' of the strategy but I was trying to play by some rather simple rules...try not to take the dealers bust card.

After another 6 or 7 hands of play, I was miserable, but I wasnt about to let this jackass berate me off the table. Maybe I was 'screwing' things up, but there were plenty of other spots at the higher minimum tables for this blackjack expert to make his bankroll.

The dealer joined in shortly after commenting on my mistakes trying to help me out and that only made it worse.

It was at that point I left -- most likely to the delight of the rest of the table. I had lost 20 dollars and played for about an hour.

Now, I can understand if I was a blackjack ace and had some yokel sit down and play the wrong way and have an impact on my $$, but I wouldnt be playing the small limit tables anyway. Isnt that what the smaller limit tables are for? To learn, or is it for the degenerate drug addled burnouts that are trying to make enough to get their next fix.

It was and will be my last vist to their casino and probably any other casino for that matter...Im not so sure that the management of the casino would be pleased with the way fellow customers are running out easy money.

I tend to think that in the roughly decade and a half between trips, it had less to do with the casino and more with the patrons looking to blame someone for their losses.

Saul Good
01-05-2009, 09:46 PM
First off...RELAX!!
Deeeeep Breath...

This is a thread about blackjack etiquette, not different strategy's. That being said not hitting when your supposed to etc...will upset the MAJORITY of players that do follow basic strategy, which is what the thread starter wanted to know. Even the dealers will vocally question any wild moves, hey they want to get tipped too remember?

I agree with some things you said and highlighted the things I couldn't agree on. Although, you are completely correct about needing a bankroll to see the benefit...You DO NOT have to be a genius to count cards whatsoever, you just need a good memory. The fact that you think that, makes me laugh at the remark that "my post obviously shows I dont know what the numbers mean." There are plenty of non-MIT students that can count and show profit. I cant even begin to fathom your statement that there is zero mathematical advantage to counting cards...if that were true why WOULD MIT even play it?

The beautiful thing about blackjack is the fact its a game based on past information. The cards that have already been dealt help make profitable decisions. Does it REALLY matter if someone doesnt hit when they are supposed too? Its simple, NO it doesnt. But if they do hit you have EVEN MORE information, which is profitable for you.

As far as having someone sit at the table and play with you, well that is also a well known strategy, actually. Although its risky and draws even more attention to your sudden winnings, it has been done. Thats a whole other side to blackjack though. Some players claim its the most fun part about the game.

Since most players in casinos are there for fun, and once again were talking about etiquette and not strategy, hit and stay when your supposed to the other players will love ya for it.

P.S. Most players that are considered pro play with normal shoes not the shuffling machine. It would lower there odds and and smart gamblers play when they have the advantage.

I get that you've read the book "Bringing Down the House". You're pretty much regurgitating it word for word. I never said that there is no mathematical advantage to counting cards. I'm saying that you can't do it well enough to succeed. It has less to do with memory than it does with speed and accuracy. Why do you think that only the smartest math geeks at a university full of math geniuses were required to practice for weeks on end before they were allowed to touch the tables?

That said, you clearly don't understand how the information truly helps. You clearly understand that you want a lot of aces face cards in the deck so that you have a better chance for blackjack, hitting on double-downs, and busting the dealer. What you don't seem to get is the fact that you can know exactly how many face cards are in the deck, but you can't know which cards they are. If a player takes a card instead of standing and letting the dealer take the card, that changes nothing. If 60% of the cards in the deck are face cards, that means that the next card has a 60% chance of being a face card. It also means that every card after that is equally likely to be a face card.

The ins and outs of team play that you discuss are comical. That's the stuff of geniuses bankrolled by millionaires. You and your buddies can go to the boats and try that stuff all day long. The casinos would love it because they know that you will lose your ass.

The part about adding a player that I referenced was to have that player hit or stand in an effort to make the dealer take a specific card that is more likely to be a bust card. That doesn't happen because there is no one card that is more likely than any other card in the deck to be a bust card. Each card in the deck has the same probability unless you have tracked the shuffle. Again, that doesn't happen anymore.

Do you really think that casinos don't know about these little trick? Of course they do, and they have figured out how to counter them. They don't let the shoe get deep enough to make the counting useful.

MOhillbilly
01-06-2009, 09:28 AM
when you play cards play your hand only. i dont give a shit what other people think its my money i am layin.

Short Leash Hootie
01-06-2009, 10:35 AM
Ive played blackjack in a casino exactly 2 times...The first time was at one of the KC 'boats' that arrived in mid 1995. My experience there was most pleasant, and maybe that was because most patrons in KC at the time were not experienced blackjack players, but no one was complaining about players stealing the dealers 'bust' card.

The second time was earlier this year and it will be my last time. As a sure fire blackjack noob, a few months ago I was in St. Louis on business and some coworkers and I went to their new Lumiere casino and I wanted to play blackjack again.

I didnt have designs on actually winning since this was exactly my second time playing, so I scoped out their smallest minimum table and sat down. The table was full and I was in the middle.

Shortly after I sat down, another gentlemen sat to my right and started murmuring about something...after a while, I picked up the fact that he was mad at my play. Granted, I didnt know all the 'basics' of the strategy but I was trying to play by some rather simple rules...try not to take the dealers bust card.

After another 6 or 7 hands of play, I was miserable, but I wasnt about to let this jackass berate me off the table. Maybe I was 'screwing' things up, but there were plenty of other spots at the higher minimum tables for this blackjack expert to make his bankroll.

The dealer joined in shortly after commenting on my mistakes trying to help me out and that only made it worse.

It was at that point I left -- most likely to the delight of the rest of the table. I had lost 20 dollars and played for about an hour.

Now, I can understand if I was a blackjack ace and had some yokel sit down and play the wrong way and have an impact on my $$, but I wouldnt be playing the small limit tables anyway. Isnt that what the smaller limit tables are for? To learn, or is it for the degenerate drug addled burnouts that are trying to make enough to get their next fix.

It was and will be my last vist to their casino and probably any other casino for that matter...Im not so sure that the management of the casino would be pleased with the way fellow customers are running out easy money.

I tend to think that in the roughly decade and a half between trips, it had less to do with the casino and more with the patrons looking to blame someone for their losses.
that's bullshit, dude...

As a person who loves gambling and casinos...it's your money, someone ruining your fun at a minimum table...that sucks. Sorry to hear about that...

Bowser
01-06-2009, 01:28 PM
Really, anyone who thinks that they are going to win thousands at a local "boat" playing blackjack at the low tables is delusional. Those people are just ate up. Sure, sometimes a strange hit can break the table, but the opposite is true, as well. I've doubled down on a soft 18 and pulled a 3. The dealer was next up, 10 showing, 6 in the hole. His first draw card was 9. That was against the grain what I did, but it saved the table.

As has been said - there is no way to know what card is coming up, therefore no "logical" way to play it. It's all chance.

And as MOhillbilly said, it's your money your playing with, not the other people. They are free to stay or go as they see fit.

Amnorix
01-06-2009, 01:35 PM
Yes.

If you're playing at a table with only your friends, do what you want.

If others are there, you need to play the odds, lest you **** it up for everyone. The cliche is true: the table that plays together wins together.

I've never seen the actions of a table maverick lead to blows, but I've seen it draw a VERY heated response from the rest of the players. People cussed him. Others left. Even the dealer had a comment or two b/c he wants to get tipped from winning players.

I find this very odd. Whether someone else draws or stays shouldn't affect any other player's odds of winning to any extent worth worrying about. Why would it?

Amnorix
01-06-2009, 01:37 PM
There was an equal probability that the card you took would have been a low card and that you would have helped the entire table. People who act like the actions of one player effect the probability of the other players chance of success are idiots.

That's what I'm thinking.

Amnorix
01-06-2009, 01:38 PM
I've played with people who double down on a hard twelve. I agree with those who said you need to play the odds. I usually don't care, unless that player is the last guy before the dealer.

Why do you care then either? How does it shift anything into the dealer's favor?

Amnorix
01-06-2009, 01:41 PM
That's the thing, your odds of winning go down when the tables odds of winning goes down. It's the table vs the house, and over a period of time, your odds are better if you play together rather than be a dumbass and play for yourself.

Let's say you do something silly -- hit on an 18. Obviously you bust most times. But how does that shift the odds in the house's favor? It is equally likely that the next card or the card after that one is a 2, or 3, right? If the former then the idiot hitting on 18 helped. If the latter, then he hurt you, but what he did didn't affect your (or the house's) odds.

Dartgod
01-06-2009, 01:41 PM
It hasn't been mentioned yet, but the only poor etiquette being displayed when people bitch about the play of others is on the people doing the bitching. Not on the person who doesn't know or doesn't wish to play basic strategy.

Amnorix
01-06-2009, 01:46 PM
It is not equal actually.

It depends what the running count is at that time. Counting cards by giving them values such as -1,0,+1 helps determine what is more LIKELY to come out, therefore increasing you chances to make money. Join card counting with basic strategy and you actually have an advantage OVER the house. This is why people get upset because its proven that even just learning basic strategy improves your chance.

Ok, fine, but there is an equal probability over the long run of being at -1 versus being at +1 right?

And if Charlie to your left there always does the silly thing (whatever silly is), then half the time it helps, and half the time it hurts, right? So if he's NOT counting cards, then he doesn't know if it's helping or hurting, nor does he care because he's doing his own thing -- which is probably poor strategy for him, but over the long run doesn't affect you, if you bet equal amounts ignoring him at all times.

Do that many people count cards?? I wouldn't have thought so, but frankly, I avoid gambling at casinos.

Amnorix
01-06-2009, 01:50 PM
No, you actually don't. Unless you have the bankroll and the true genius-level of intelligence to pull it off, you're just going to end up busting big time. There's a reason that the people who pulled off the MIT scheme were successful...they were all geniuses backed by millionaires.

That book, "Bringing Down the House" was the best thing to ever happen to Vegas. A bunch of guys on message boards like you thought that they could take $3,000 to a casino with a couple of buddies and count a 6 deck shoe with 8 players at a table. It just doesn't work.

Even if you do understand how to count cards (your post tells me that you probably understand the basic mechanics, but you obviously don't understand what the numbers really mean), there is zero mathematical difference in the likelihood of the next card being a face card versus the second card being a face card.

What one player is about to do makes no statistical difference. You have more information if the player takes another card, but you can gain no advantage by controlling whether another player who plays after you hits or stands.

If you did, the professional counters would have players sitting at the table either hitting or staying just to feed a face card to the dealer. This would only be advantageous if you were shuffle tracking, and that doesn't work with shuffling machines.

I saw a TV show about those guys. Freaking impressive. Also impressive was the amount of losses they sometimes piled up even when they played "right". You're right, they needed massive financial backing, because it only pays off in the long, long run, and sometimes the losses were hideously high.

Crashride
01-06-2009, 04:27 PM
Ok, fine, but there is an equal probability over the long run of being at -1 versus being at +1 right?

And if Charlie to your left there always does the silly thing (whatever silly is), then half the time it helps, and half the time it hurts, right? So if he's NOT counting cards, then he doesn't know if it's helping or hurting, nor does he care because he's doing his own thing -- which is probably poor strategy for him, but over the long run doesn't affect you, if you bet equal amounts ignoring him at all times.

Do that many people count cards?? I wouldn't have thought so, but frankly, I avoid gambling at casinos.

My whole argument is just to state that at most casinos, doing "your own thing" might upset SOME people who do take it seriously. Its just reality, no matter how you look at the situation, whether people here accept it or not.
It shows not many people here actually play because even THE DEALERS will tell you what you should do. I already agreed that technically what they do doesnt really affect you, but its just more information, although a little, on what the possibility of the next card coming out could be.
As far as the counting goes, it depends on how many decks there are etc... Is there a big difference between the running count being -1 or +1? Absolutely not. But if your running count is an 8+ you should bet big according to the pros. I just forget some people here at the planet are too hard-headed to think someone else has studied the subject.
At the end of the day if you wanna be selfish at the table and "do your own thing," just dont act surprised if you upset people at a table.

Discuss Thrower
01-06-2009, 05:54 PM
My whole argument is just to state that at most casinos, doing "your own thing" might upset SOME people who do take it seriously. Its just reality, no matter how you look at the situation, whether people here accept it or not.
It shows not many people here actually play because even THE DEALERS will tell you what you should do. I already agreed that technically what they do doesnt really affect you, but its just more information, although a little, on what the possibility of the next card coming out could be.
As far as the counting goes, it depends on how many decks there are etc... Is there a big difference between the running count being -1 or +1? Absolutely not. But if your running count is an 8+ you should bet big according to the pros. I just forget some people here at the planet are too hard-headed to think someone else has studied the subject.
At the end of the day if you wanna be selfish at the table and "do your own thing," just dont act surprised if you upset people at a table.

Seems to me that the four decks I think the casino was using would prevent card counting, at least early on in the going... Plus I don't want to dedicate any more brainpower than simply scanning the table and seeing either a lot of faces or otherwise, then dealing accordingly.

Or, I'd rather do stupid things like doubling on a hard twelve (or 18) and succeeding, just for that dangerous word starting with the letter "f".

You know, fun.

Saul Good
01-06-2009, 08:08 PM
As far as the counting goes, it depends on how many decks there are etc... Is there a big difference between the running count being -1 or +1? Absolutely not. But if your running count is an 8+ you should bet big according to the pros. I just forget some people here at the planet are too hard-headed to think someone else has studied the subject.


Reading a Ben Mezrich book doesn't exactly mean the same thing as studying the subject. Having a running count of 8+ does not mean you should bet big according to any pro. Again, you know just enough to be dangerous and lose your ass.

If the count is 8+ halfway through the first deck in a 6-deck shoe, the count is meaningless. Having a count of 4+ 5 1/2 decks through a 6-deck shoe is much more valuable, but casinos won't let you get that deep. Why? Because real pros would eat them alive.

That lesson aside, you still don't seem to understand the issue. Whether or not another player at the table takes a hit or not has absolutely no impact on anyone else's odds of drawing better or worse cards or of busting the dealer. I'll prove it:



Let's make it really easy for you. You know that the count is +5 with 10 cards left in the entire shoe. Let's make it even easier. You didn't count using the +/- system, you are a super genius, and you actually track every single card in the shoe. You actually know that there are 7 face cards, 2 threes, and a 7 left in the deck. Not only that, but you actually caught a glimpse of the dealers down card, so you know for a fact that the dealer has 14. Regardless of what the last player to act before the dealer is holding, is it to your benefit that that player hits or stays? Explain your answer.



The CORRECT answer is that it doesn't make a damned bit of difference what that player does. If you play out that scenario an infinite number of times, everyone at the table's winning percentage will be identical on the times that the player hit as it will when he stood.

Why is that? I'm glad you asked. There is a 70% chance that the card on the top of the deck is a face card that would bust the dealer. There is also a 70% chance that the second card from the top is a face card that would bust the dealer. In fact, there is a 70% chance that any given card in the deck is a face card that would bust the dealer, so it doesn't matter which card the dealer gets, the odds are the same. If that last player takes 0 cards or 9 cards, all that would matter is that the dealer will be taking one card and one card only, and that card has a 70% chance of busting him regardless of which card it is.

KCUnited
01-06-2009, 09:17 PM
If 60% of the cards in the deck are face cards, that means that the next card has a 60% chance of being a face card. It also means that every card after that is equally likely to be a face card.


I don't play blackjack, but if 60% of the deck is face cards and a non face card is dealt, doesn't the percentage of face cards in the deck go up since 1 less card is in the deck?

Saul Good
01-06-2009, 09:31 PM
I don't play blackjack, but if 60% of the deck is face cards and a non face card is dealt, doesn't the percentage of face cards in the deck go up since 1 less card is in the deck?

It does, but this scenario is about whether or not taking that card makes the dealer more or less likely to bust. If you took a non face card, it would make the dealer more likely to bust. The problem is that you don't know if you are helping or hurting the dealer until after you take the card.

There is no way to say that a person should stand because the next card will bust the dealer or that a person should take a hit because the second card will bust the dealer. You can know every card that is in the shoe, but you can't know where they are.

To simplify it even further, let's say that you have a full deck of shuffled cards and you are trying to draw a face card. Should you take the first card off the top, or should you take the second card or the third card, etc. all the way to the 52nd card? The answer, of course, is that it makes no difference which card you choose. They all have a 12 out of 52 chance of being a face card. You can pick and choose and study your options all day, but it doesn't change the odds. That's what the people who bitch about a player playing "incorrectly" are doing. They seem to think that they can predict which card in the deck is going to be a face card, and they are simply bad at math.

Playing perfect basic strategy improves your own odds, but it has no bearing on the odds of those around you.

KCUnited
01-06-2009, 09:49 PM
I get that you can't know which card is coming next, but it seems the probability of cards can increase and decrease, but again I don't play.

Crashride
01-07-2009, 08:06 AM
Reading a Ben Mezrich book doesn't exactly mean the same thing as studying the subject. Having a running count of 8+ does not mean you should bet big according to any pro. Again, you know just enough to be dangerous and lose your ass.

If the count is 8+ halfway through the first deck in a 6-deck shoe, the count is meaningless. Having a count of 4+ 5 1/2 decks through a 6-deck shoe is much more valuable, but casinos won't let you get that deep. Why? Because real pros would eat them alive.

That lesson aside, you still don't seem to understand the issue. Whether or not another player at the table takes a hit or not has absolutely no impact on anyone else's odds of drawing better or worse cards or of busting the dealer. I'll prove it:



Let's make it really easy for you. You know that the count is +5 with 10 cards left in the entire shoe. Let's make it even easier. You didn't count using the +/- system, you are a super genius, and you actually track every single card in the shoe. You actually know that there are 7 face cards, 2 threes, and a 7 left in the deck. Not only that, but you actually caught a glimpse of the dealers down card, so you know for a fact that the dealer has 14. Regardless of what the last player to act before the dealer is holding, is it to your benefit that that player hits or stays? Explain your answer.



The CORRECT answer is that it doesn't make a damned bit of difference what that player does. If you play out that scenario an infinite number of times, everyone at the table's winning percentage will be identical on the times that the player hit as it will when he stood.

Why is that? I'm glad you asked. There is a 70% chance that the card on the top of the deck is a face card that would bust the dealer. There is also a 70% chance that the second card from the top is a face card that would bust the dealer. In fact, there is a 70% chance that any given card in the deck is a face card that would bust the dealer, so it doesn't matter which card the dealer gets, the odds are the same. If that last player takes 0 cards or 9 cards, all that would matter is that the dealer will be taking one card and one card only, and that card has a 70% chance of busting him regardless of which card it is.


LOL and LOL. I love how for the third time your claiming I have read bringing down the house because of the stratagies I have listed. News flash...every blackjack book, like many gambling books, are re-hashed information from previous books.
The fact that you claim to not bet with a +8 count is RETARDED. Maybe you should actually read this book you keep talking about. The reason? There is an "IRC," the Initial Running Count. Your assuming the count just starts at "0." The count ONLY starts at "0" in a ONE DECK SHOE. For insance, in a 6-deck shoe the count starts at -24. Read that again. Therefore, anytime you have a count of +8 BET! Not because your guarenteed to win big, but because YOU HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO.
This post just exposed you in my eyes, I can no longer even fathom what your writing. That being said, I pray that anyone here trying to get serious about blackjack steers clear from this thread.

Demonpenz
01-07-2009, 12:39 PM
eugene levy cracks me up

Saul Good
01-07-2009, 07:39 PM
I get that you can't know which card is coming next, but it seems the probability of cards can increase and decrease, but again I don't play.

The probability does increase and decrease, and a player can use it to his advantage, but it's such a slight edge that it takes thousands of hands to even have a reasonable level of certainty that you will come out on top. That's why it takes an enormous bankroll to pull something like this off to the point of making it worth your time. When you factor in the fact that even a couple of mistakes can really screw you, it really makes it pointless in terms of the average Joe trying to make serious money.

Saul Good
01-07-2009, 07:56 PM
LOL and LOL. I love how for the third time your claiming I have read bringing down the house because of the stratagies I have listed. News flash...every blackjack book, like many gambling books, are re-hashed information from previous books.
The fact that you claim to not bet with a +8 count is RETARDED. Maybe you should actually read this book you keep talking about. The reason? There is an "IRC," the Initial Running Count. Your assuming the count just starts at "0." The count ONLY starts at "0" in a ONE DECK SHOE. For insance, in a 6-deck shoe the count starts at -24. Read that again. Therefore, anytime you have a count of +8 BET! Not because your guarenteed to win big, but because YOU HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO.
This post just exposed you in my eyes, I can no longer even fathom what your writing. That being said, I pray that anyone here trying to get serious about blackjack steers clear from this thread.
Yes, and it's the third time I made an accurate statement.

It's almost like you're trying to be wrong with your statements. The count of any deck or any number of complete decks always starts at zero. Why? Because cards 2-6 are given a value of +1. 7-9 are given a value of 0. 10s through Aces have a value of -1. Add those cards up, and you get a value of 0. What's 0 times 1 deck? 0! What's 0 times 4 decks? 0! What's 0 times 100 decks? You guessed it...0!

If a 6 deck shoe started with a count of -24, that would mean that there would have to be 24 more cards with a value of +1 than cards with a value of -1. That simply isn't the case. There are 20 cards in each deck with a value of +1, and there are 20 cards in each deck with a value of -1. If you deal out every single card, you end with a value of 0 because there are an equal number of cards with a positive value as there are with a negative value.

You fail to grasp the concept of a true count. The true count, in it's simplest form, is the count divided by the number of decks that have not been dealt yet. For example, your +8 example with 4 decks left really amounts to a true count of +2. A +5 count with a half of a deck remaining really amounts to a true count of +10. The more cards that are left, the less significant the count and vice versa.

Let's simplify. Lets say that the count is +3 with 3 cards remaining. You literally know that every card left in the deck is a face card, so that count is completely useful (credible). That same count of +3 with 5 decks remaining is almost completely worthless. Sure you know that there are 3 more high cards left than low cards, but 3 out of 260 isn't very useful information.

That said, your initial point has nothing to do with card counting, basic strategy, or anything else. You actually claim that a player can alter a dealer's chance of drawing a bust card by hitting or standing. Your claim is borderline retarded, and that's why you didn't answer my scenario earlier.

I told you every card that was left in the deck. You can't count cards any better than that. You still can't say which cards in the deck are highs versus lows. You can only figure out the percentages of highs versus lows, and every card in the deck has the same percentage.

To summarize this entire thread:

If someone tells you that you are affecting the odds of the other players at the table by the way you are playing your own hand, laugh at them and point. They are bad at math.

If you are the person who thinks that the way other people play their hands affects your odds, get a vasectomy.

If you are not a genius with a multimillion dollar bankroll, blackjack is a game that will slowly separate you from your money over the long run.

Swanman
01-08-2009, 01:26 PM
As many have said already in the thread, people that think your play affects their chances of winning in any material way are idiots. Sure, on this hand they may have not received the card they wanted, but 5 hands later when they receive the card they wanted, they don't realize it wouldn't have happened if you had played a different way.

Any any blackjack player that isn't an amazing card counter (there are probably not many in the world) that is actually trying to make a living doing it is a bigger idiot.

Paniero
01-08-2009, 01:58 PM
In most cases, it's only the people who jump in for one turn or bet erratically and lose a big hand that become upset at my action.

F'em. I started when I was 21 and ran everyone off the table for a couple of trips to the casinos. It was more fun then than now that I know all of these "stategies".

Don't worry about manners. You'll never see these people again.

Unless it's the parking lot :)

Bowser
01-24-2009, 09:29 PM
Double down on that 12 when the dealer shows 2, pussy.

Mr. Plow
01-26-2009, 12:59 PM
All the BS in this thread is precisely why I've never gotten into card gambling.

Bowser
01-26-2009, 06:27 PM
All the BS in this thread is precisely why I've never gotten into card gambling.

Heh, there's only been a couple of times that I've been at a blackjack table where people have bitched. Admittedly, one of the times was the second time I ever played, and was getting bitched out by some Asian guy that literally had thousands in front of him, but felt like he needed to play on a 2 dollar table. He never left, though, and I walked away 100 bucks richer.

joesomebody
01-26-2009, 06:27 PM
I honestly don't know who started the trend of yelling at people who don't know or don't play basic strategy, but I think its sort of like the mother in law syndrome. People bitched at you when you didn't know what you were doing, so now you bitch at others who don't know what they are doing.

I typically only play with about 4 friends, so there are usually at most 1 or 2 people there who aren't good friends of mine. We try to play basic strategy, but we each have quirks, which I think most people who play do. For instance I have a friend who NEVER hits 16. That's fine, although a true stickler for basic strategy would say to hit 16 when the dealer has a 7 or higher as their face card.

Do your own thing and have fun, thats the key. Usually in Missouri people have never been card nazis to me, but I've seen it get ugly fast in Vegas. I play basic strategy for the most part, and don't have to deal with those idiots any more. They do exist, and you even get asshole dealers sometimes, but for the most part the dealers are helpful to beginners.

Bowser
01-29-2009, 12:28 AM
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