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DaKCMan AP
01-09-2009, 07:24 AM
AP Poll
1. Florida (48)
2. Utah (16)
3. Southern Cal (1)
4. Texas
5. Oklahoma
6. Alabama
7. TCU
8. Penn State
9. ohio state
10. Oregon
11. Boise State
12. Texas Tech
13. Georgia
14. Mississippi
15. Virginia Tech
16. Oklahoma State
17. Cincinnati
18. Oregon State
19. Missouri
20. Iowa
21. Florida State
22. Georgia Tech
23. West Virginia
24. Michigan State
25. BYU

After winning the Fiest Bowl Texas dropped and after losing the Fiesta Bowl ohio state actually moved up. :spock:

Coaches Poll
1. Florida (60)
2. USC
3. Texas
4. Utah (1)
5. Oklahoma
6. Alabama
7. TCU
8. Penn St.
9. Oregon
10. Georgia
11. ohio state
12. Texas Tech
13. Boise St
14. Virginia Tech
15. Mississippi
16. Missouri
17. Cincinnati
18. Oklahoma St
19. Oregon St
20. Iowa
21. BYU
22. Georgia Tech
23. Florida St
24. Michigan St
25. California

BigRedChief
01-09-2009, 07:26 AM
Florida is still the only a national champion in the eyes of a majority of voters.

D1 football needs to settle this on the field.

POND_OF_RED
01-09-2009, 07:56 AM
D1 football needs to settle this on the field.

Definitely. A couple more games could not hurt. Fla-Tex and USC-Utah should play this weekend with the winners playing the next weekend. It's not too much to ask a team to play up to 15 games a season if it wants to find a true undisputed national champion.

TEX
01-09-2009, 08:06 AM
Definitely. A couple more games could not hurt. Fla-Tex and USC-Utah should play this weekend with the winners playing the next weekend. It's not too much to ask a team to play up to 15 games a season if it wants to find a true undisputed national champion.


:clap: Yep. It would be settled on the field.

DaKCMan AP
01-09-2009, 08:12 AM
Definitely. A couple more games could not hurt. Fla-Tex and USC-Utah should play this weekend with the winners playing the next weekend. It's not too much to ask a team to play up to 15 games a season if it wants to find a true undisputed national champion.

That's nice and all, but it's not the system and most likely wont be until 2014 at the earliest. The facts are that Florida, USC, Utah and everyone else agreed to this system before the start of the season. Same with Texas and the Big XII Championship tiebreak rules.

On a technical note, if there was a hypothetical playoff the entire seeding would have been different so it's not the same as saying now, "Ok the winner of UF/OU plays ___ and the winner of ___ plays ___." If there was a playoff, UF wouldn't have played OU in the 1st round.

POND_OF_RED
01-09-2009, 08:21 AM
That's nice and all, but it's not the system and most likely wont be until 2014 at the earliest. The facts are that Florida, USC, Utah and everyone else agreed to this system before the start of the season.

I wasn't aware that the teams all discussed this at the beginning of the year. Did all of the teams vote on how to crown a champion? Give me a break. None of those teams really agree on the system besides the one that the system worked for.

DaKCMan AP
01-09-2009, 08:28 AM
I wasn't aware that the teams all discussed this at the beginning of the year. Did all of the teams vote on how to crown a champion? Give me a break. None of those teams really agree on the system besides the one that the system worked for.

Uh, Utah and the Mountain West Conference agreed to the BCS system when it was put into place. Prior to the BCS mid-majors weren't included in the system, only the major conferences were. How come there weren't any articles from the Utah coach or Attorney General complaining prior to the beginning of the season??

After a protracted round of negotiations, the Bowl Alliance was reformed into the Bowl Championship Series for the 1998 season. The Tournament of Roses Association, which operates the Rose Bowl, agreed to release the Big Ten and Pac-10 champions if it was necessary to force a national championship game. In return, the Rose Bowl was added to the yearly national championship rotation, and the game was able to keep its coveted exclusive TV time slot on the afternoon of New Year's Day. Former SEC commissioner Roy Kramer is considered to have created the BCS.[3] The new Bowl Championship Series not only included the Big Ten and the Pac-10 conferences but also teams from mid-major conferences based on performance.

In 2007, pursuant to a legally-binding contract, all 119 FBS universities chose the BCS as its sanctioned selecting organization. The BCS: "...is managed by the commissioners of the 11 NCAA Division I-A conferences, the director of athletics at the University of Notre Dame, and representatives of the bowl organizations.

Chiefnj2
01-09-2009, 08:37 AM
Uh, Utah and the Mountain West Conference agreed to the BCS system when it was put into place. Prior to the BCS mid-majors weren't included in the system, only the major conferences were. How come there weren't any articles from the Utah coach or Attorney General complaining prior to the beginning of the season??

Did they have a choice between the BCS and a playoff system, or was it BCS or nothing?

DaKCMan AP
01-09-2009, 08:40 AM
Did they have a choice between the BCS and a playoff system, or was it BCS or nothing?

From the BCS official website:

<table class="bdy" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="770"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td style="background-image: url(/id/7894683); background-repeat: no-repeat;" width="440">The BCS is managed by the commissioners of the 11 NCAA Division I-A conferences, the director of athletics at the University of Notre Dame, and representatives of the bowl organizations. The conferences are Atlantic Coast, Big East, Big Ten, Big 12, Conference USA, Mid-American, Mountain West, Sun Belt, Pacific 10, Southeastern and Western Athletic.

The conference commissioners and the Notre Dame athletics director make decisions regarding all BCS issues, in consultation with an athletics directors advisory group and subject to the approval of a presidential oversight committee whose members represent all 117 Division 1-A programs.
</td></tr></tbody></table>If they wanted a playoff system they could bring it up. Every conference gets a vote and every university president is represented.

Regardless, Utah's coach and the Utah Attorney General weren't :deevee: back in August & September.

Bootlegged
01-09-2009, 08:43 AM
Utah is the legitimate national champion. The rest is just media hype.

Chiefnj2
01-09-2009, 08:44 AM
From the BCS official website:

If they wanted a playoff system they could bring it up. Every conference gets a vote and every university president is represented.

Regardless, Utah's coach and the Utah Attorney General weren't :deevee: back in August & September.

You're just bitter because deep down you know Utah is more deserving than Florida of being called the National Champion.

DaKCMan AP
01-09-2009, 08:47 AM
You're just bitter because deep down you know Utah is more deserving than Florida of being called the National Champion.

Not bitter at all, my team won the National Championship. They are the only team to defeat TWO #1 teams (and by double-digit margins). They defeated 6 ranked teams throughout the season, 4 top-10 teams, 11 bowl teams, won the BCS Championship game, will finish #1 in the Final BCS Rankings, finished #1 in the Final AP Poll and the Final Coaches Poll. The haters are the ones who are bitter. I'm thrilled.

dirk digler
01-09-2009, 08:48 AM
That's nice and all, but it's not the system and most likely wont be until 2014 at the earliest. The facts are that Florida, USC, Utah and everyone else agreed to this system before the start of the season. Same with Texas and the Big XII Championship tiebreak rules.

On a technical note, if there was a hypothetical playoff the entire seeding would have been different so it's not the same as saying now, "Ok the winner of UF/OU plays ___ and the winner of ___ plays ___." If there was a playoff, UF wouldn't have played OU in the 1st round.

I don't know about the rest but Pete Carroll is on record that he wants and wanted a playoff and has for some time.

It sucks this is the only NCAA sport that doesn't have a playoff system.

Frazod
01-09-2009, 09:09 AM
Apparently the Jayhawks' stirring victory over mighty Minnesota failed to impress.

DaKCMan AP
01-09-2009, 09:30 AM
I'm not going to get my hopes up about Harvin or Spikes, but this is interesting:

The question that's on the minds of every Florida fan right now as he or she celebrates the Gators' second BCS national championship in the last three years is: Why not hang around and try to win a third one?

Harvin said that's not as farfetched as some might think.

"We've all talked about coming back next season," said Harvin, referring to teammates Brandon Spikes and Tebow. "This never gets old. It's just exciting to be a part of this and be a part of a team that does everything for each other."

There's a chance he may play running back in the NFL or be one of those hybrid guys. There's also a chance he may put off the NFL for a year. And, yes, he insists he's serious.

"We've got something special going on here," Harvin said.

Special enough for the Big Three to all come back and try to win another one?

"It could happen. It really could," said Harvin, wearing his customary easy smile.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/sec/0-4-67/Harvin-is-scary-good-for-the-Gators.htmlFrom an SI article:


"The upshot of that, as scary as it may sound, is that Florida could well return its entire defense next season. (Strong said afterward he expects Spikes, the lone potential draft entry, to come back). The vibe inside the Florida locker room Thursday night wasn't that of a team that just completed a journey; the Gators realize they're in the midst of accomplishing something truly special."

luv
01-09-2009, 09:35 AM
Coaches have Missouri over Oklahoma State?

HemiEd
01-09-2009, 11:50 AM
No Jayhawks? WTF!?

Brock
01-09-2009, 11:53 AM
Yeah, disappointing, no bump from beating an overrated Mizzou squad.

kepp
01-09-2009, 12:04 PM
No Jayhawks? WTF!?

Seriously?

DaKCMan AP
01-09-2009, 12:10 PM
No Jayhawks? WTF!?

Yeah, disappointing, no bump from beating an overrated Mizzou squad.

There are no 5 loss teams in either poll.

DaKCMan AP
01-09-2009, 12:18 PM
some dumb fun...

The 2008 college football season ended less than 24 hours ago. But it's never too early to take a look at 2009, so here's the way-too-early Top 25 for the upcoming season.

Once again, some very familiar names are at the top.

1. Florida Gators
Don't be surprised to see the Gators go wire-to-wire at No. 1 in 2009. Florida might return as many as 10 starters on defense (star junior linebacker Brandon Spikes is expected to enter the NFL draft), and much of its firepower on offense will be back, too. Quarterback Tim Tebow probably will return for his senior season, although speedy receiver Percy Harvin might turn pro.

2. Texas Longhorns
With quarterback Colt McCoy coming back for his senior season, the Longhorns once again will be as explosive as any offense in the country. Four starters should be back from a very young offensive line, and receiver Jordan Shipley was granted a sixth year of eligibility by the NCAA. Texas has to do a better job of running the football in 2009. The defensive line will be gutted, and All-America end Brian Orakpo and tackle Roy Miller won't be easy to replace.

3. Oklahoma Sooners
If current sophomore Sam Bradford returns to school, the Sooners should have a high-scoring offense once again. It might not be as easy, however, for the reigning Heisman Trophy winner in 2009. Oklahoma will have to replace four starters on its offensive line, and leading receiver Juaquin Iglesias is departing. Tight end Jermaine Gresham might enter the NFL draft.

4. USC Trojans
The Trojans will start 2009 ranked in the top five, but don't be surprised if they struggle to stay there. USC's ferocious defense will be gutted by personnel losses. Three of the four starting defensive linemen will have to be replaced, and all three starting linebackers will be gone. At least one starting defensive back must be replaced, and possibly three if junior safety Taylor Mays enters the NFL draft and cornerback Josh Pinkard isn't given a sixth year of eligibility by the NCAA. The offense could be very good if junior quarterback Mark Sanchez returns to school.

5. Alabama Crimson Tide
Alabama fans learned how valuable All-America left tackle Andre Smith was to the offense in the Crimson Tide's 31-17 loss to Utah in the Allstate Sugar Bowl. The Tide will go into the 2009 season without their two best offensive linemen -- center Antoine Caldwell was a senior and Smith is entering the NFL draft as a junior. Senior quarterback John Parker Wilson is done, and Greg McElroy and Star Jackson will battle for the starting job this spring. Nine starters are expected to be back on defense -- if junior nose tackle Terrence Cody returns for the 2009 season.

6. Ohio State Buckeyes
Much of Ohio State's success in 2009 might be determined by quarterback Terrelle Pryor's development during the offseason. Pryor played remarkably well as a freshman, but he must become a more polished passer for the offense to be truly effective. Pryor's job would have been easier if tailback Chris "Beanie" Wells had returned to school, but he declared for the NFL draft. The Buckeyes lose a lot of star power on defense -- All-America linebacker James Laurinaitis, Thorpe Award winner Malcolm Jenkins and linebacker Marcus Freeman were seniors.

7. Virginia Tech Hokies
If we learned anything from Virginia Tech's 10-4 season, it's that Frank Beamer is one of the best coaches in the business. After losing to East Carolina in the opener and struggling early in conference play, Virginia Tech rallied to win its second straight ACC championship. The Hokies should have nine starters back on offense, including quarterback Tyrod Taylor and tailback Darren Evans. Only four starters will be lost on defense, but cornerback Victor "Macho" Harris is one of them.

8. Boise State Broncos
The 2008 season didn't end the way the Broncos hoped, as they suffered their first loss in a 17-16 defeat to TCU in the San Diego County Credit Union Poinsettia Bowl. But Boise State again will have a chance to run the table in 2009. Star tailback Ian Johnson is departing, but quarterback Kellen Moore played very well as a freshman, and top receivers Jeremy Childs and Austin Pettis are expected back. The linebacker corps will have to rebuilt, but the secondary should be very good if cornerback Kyle Wilson returns for his senior season.

9. LSU Tigers
Freshman quarterback Jordan Jefferson's performance in LSU's 38-3 win over Georgia Tech in the Chick-fil-A Bowl gives the Tigers plenty of hope for 2009. Inconsistent quarterback play and a surprisingly porous defense were LSU's biggest deficiencies in 2008. Former Tennessee defensive coordinator John Chavis should shore up the defense, which must replace its entire defensive line and middle linebacker Darry Beckwith.

10. Oklahoma State Cowboys
It's still hard to gauge whether the Cowboys are a real threat to Oklahoma and Texas in the Big 12 South. They won eight of their first nine games in 2008, but then lost three of their last four. Oklahoma State's defense was gashed in those three losses, allowing 56 points to Texas Tech, 61 to Oklahoma and 42 to Oregon. Oklahoma State again figures to have one of the country's best offenses, with quarterback Zac Robinson, running back Kendall Hunter and receiver Dez Bryant coming back. Tight end Brandon Pettigrew will be missed.

11. Penn State Nittany Lions
The defending Big Ten champions will have to replace much of their firepower on offense. Receivers Jordan Norwood, Derrick Williams and Deon Butler are departing. Three offensive linemen will also have to be replaced, including center A.Q. Shipley. Quarterback Daryll Clark and tailback Evan Royster are expected to return. The losses on defense could be big, too, especially if junior end Aaron Maybin enters the NFL draft.

12. Ole Miss Rebels
Houston Nutt did a remarkable job in his first season at Ole Miss, finishing with a 9-4 record and beating Texas Tech 47-34 in the AT&T Cotton Bowl. Ole Miss will have to replace All-America left tackle Michael Oher on offense, and the defensive line will lose tackle Peria Jerry and possibly end Greg Hardy. Quarterback Jevan Snead played better down the stretch and leads a very versatile offense.

13. Iowa Hawkeyes
After a couple of mediocre seasons, coach Kirk Ferentz seems to have the Iowa program back on track. The Hawkeyes won six of their last seven games to finish 9-4, including a 31-10 rout of South Carolina in the Outback Bowl. Six starters are expected back on offense, but Iowa will have to replace star running back Shonn Greene. He'll enter the NFL draft after rushing for 1,850 yards and 20 touchdowns, both school records. Defensive tackles Matt Kroul and Mitch King will be big losses on defense.

14. Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets
The Yellow Jackets' 38-3 loss to LSU in the Chick-fil-A Bowl didn't diminish what they accomplished in coach Paul Johnson's first season. Georgia Tech finished 9-4, including its first victory over rival Georgia since 2000. The Yellow Jackets will return all 11 players who started on offense in the bowl game. Quarterback Josh Nesbitt should be more comfortable in his second season running Johnson's triple-option spread offense, and running backs Jonathan Dwyer and Roddy Jones form a great one-two punch. Nine starters are expected to return on defense, but Tech will have to replace defensive linemen Vance Walker, Darryl Richard and Michael Johnson.

15. Georgia Bulldogs
The Bulldogs lost much of their offense when quarterback Matthew Stafford and running back Knowshon Moreno announced they'll forgo their final college season to enter the NFL draft. Georgia's coaches are confident Joe Cox can get the job done at quarterback in 2009, and Caleb King and Richard Samuel were highly recruited running backs. Receiver A.J. Green was sensational as a freshman and is a big-play threat the Bulldogs lacked in recent seasons. The defense must get tougher, and the Bulldogs will have to find consistent pass-rushers.

16. TCU Horned Frogs
Behind the country's No. 1 defense, the Horned Frogs finished 11-2 in 2008, beating Boise State 17-16 in the San Diego County Credit Union Poinsettia Bowl. As many as eight defensive starters will have to be replaced if junior defensive end Jerry Hughes enters the NFL draft. Middle linebacker Jason Phillips and safety Stephen Hodge will be big losses, too. Six starters are expected back on offense, including quarterback Andy Dalton.

17. Oregon Ducks
There's much uncertainty surrounding the Ducks heading into the offseason. Will coach Mike Bellotti return for another season -- or will he turn the program over to offensive coordinator Chip Kelly? After suffering a myriad of injuries at quarterback, Oregon won its last four games to finish 10-3. Quarterback Jeremiah Masoli brought stability to the offense. The Ducks lose tailback Jeremiah Johnson and receivers Terence Scott and Jaison Williams. Three offensive linemen also must be replaced, including center Max Unger. The personnel losses will be heavy on defense, too. Defensive end Nick Reed, both tackles and safety Patrick Chung are leaving.

18. Notre Dame Fighting Irish
How excited should we be about Notre Dame's 49-21 victory over Hawaii in the Sheraton Hawaii Bowl? The Irish beat a mediocre team on its home field, but quarterback Jimmy Clausen showed why he was once ranked the No. 1 high school quarterback in the country. If Clausen continues to improve over the offseason, the Irish have reason to be excited about 2009. They have good playmakers on offense. Golden Tate is an exceptional receiver, and Michael Floyd showed he can be a deep threat. Notre Dame expects to have back eight starters on offense and five on defense. The defensive line and secondary will have to be rebuilt. The Irish will play seven teams that played in bowl games in 2008, but six of those games will be played at home.

19. Florida State Seminoles
The Seminoles have slowly gotten better the past two seasons, as coach-in-waiting Jimbo Fisher continues to make his mark on the offense. FSU was the youngest team in the country in 2008 -- 39 first-year players saw action and six true freshman started games. Three freshmen and two sophomores started on the offensive line. Fisher believes Christian Ponder will be one of the best quarterbacks to play at FSU, but he must become more consistent. The Seminoles will have to replace only two starters on offense: receiver Greg Carr and tailback Antone Smith. The losses on defense will hurt more, with two defensive ends and two linebackers leaving.

20. California Bears
The Bears overcame inconsistent quarterback play to finish 9-4 in 2008. Even though senior Nate Longshore is moving on, Kevin Riley won't automatically inherit the QB job. Coach Jeff Tedford will give current redshirt freshman Brock Mansion an opportunity to win the job. The Bears will rely heavily on running back Jahvid Best, and must replace center Alex Mack and guard Noris Malele. The linebacker corps will be gutted, with outside linebacker Zack Follett and both inside linebackers moving on.

21. Utah Utes
The Utes finished the 2008 season as the only unbeaten team in the country after upsetting Alabama 31-17 in the Sugar Bowl. They will have to replace quarterback Brian Johnson, their top three receivers and the right side of their offensive line. Nine starters are expected to return from one of the country's best defenses. Kicker/punter Louie Sakoda also will be difficult to replace. The Utes will play three difficult road games: at Oregon, BYU and TCU.

22. Nebraska Cornhuskers
The Cornhuskers made big strides under first-year coach Bo Pelini. So much so that they might be ready to challenge Kansas for the Big 12 North title in 2009. To take the next step, though, Nebraska will have to replace most of its skill players. Quarterback Joe Ganz, I-back Marlon Lucky and receivers Nate Swift and Todd Peterson are all departing. Seven starters will be back on defense if nose tackle Ndamukong Suh returns for his senior season.

23. Kansas Jayhawks
The Jayhawks couldn't match the success of their breakout season in 2007, slipping from 12-1 to 8-5 in 2008. But there are plenty of reasons for optimism in 2009. Quarterback Todd Reesing, tailback Jake Sharp and receivers Dezmon Briscoe and Kerry Meier return from an offense that averaged better than 430 yards per game. Seven defensive starters are expected to return, but losing linebackers James Holt, Joe Mortensen and Mike Rivera will hurt. They were three of the team's top four tacklers and the heart and soul of the defense.

24. BYU Cougars
The Cougars fell short of their "quest for perfection" in 2008, losing to TCU 32-7, at Utah 48-24 and Arizona 31-21 in the Pioneer Las Vegas Bowl. BYU might again have one of the country's most explosive offenses if tight end Dennis Pitta and receiver Austin Collie come back for their senior seasons. Quarterback Max Hall and running back Harvey Unga are definitely returning, but four starting offensive linemen will have to be replaced. Nine starters are expected back on defense.

25. Texas Tech Red Raiders
The Red Raiders were fortunate to keep coach Mike Leach, who is close to signing a contract extension. Leach will have his hands full preparing for 2009, as Texas Tech must replace record-setting quarterback Graham Harrell and probably All-America wide receiver Michael Crabtree. The heart of the offensive line -- left tackle Ryland Reed, left guard Louis Vasquez and center Stephen Hamby -- also will have to be replaced. Sophomore QB Taylor Potts should step right into Leach's pass-happy attack. Eight starters are expected back on defense, but the Red Raiders must continue to get better on that side of the ball.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=schlabach_mark&id=3818270

kepp
01-09-2009, 12:33 PM
Notre Dame? Really? And Penn State is too high.

ArrowheadHawk
01-09-2009, 12:34 PM
So KU will start next year ranked ahead of MU. I like.

sedated
01-09-2009, 01:03 PM
The facts are that Florida, USC, Utah and everyone else agreed to this system before the start of the season.

Uh, Utah and the Mountain West Conference agreed to the BCS system when it was put into place.

From the BCS official website:

Yeah, everyone agreed to it. Kinda like when all the states “agreed” to make the legal drinking age 21 (nevermind that the feds would take away funding for their state if they didn’t comply).

They didn’t have any choice. Agree to it, or be left out.

sedated
01-09-2009, 01:07 PM
I'm not going to get my hopes up about Harvin or Spikes, but this is interesting:

From an SI article:

We need to make a Florida/KCman sub-forum so KCman can stop polluting every other thread with this garbage.

Its getting worse than recxjake and his GM crap.

Bowser
01-09-2009, 01:13 PM
So KU will start next year ranked ahead of MU. I like.

Missouri is going to have a year next year that resembles the year KU had this year.

vailpass
01-09-2009, 01:13 PM
No doubt we need a playoff. Until then the BC$ is in play unless they can get the anti-trust suit to court.

Good to see the mighty Iowa Hawkeyes finish in the top 20.

HemiEd
01-09-2009, 01:17 PM
Seriously?
Sure, seriously.

Yeah, disappointing, no bump from beating an overrated Mizzou squad.

They looked pretty good in their bowl game.

Brock
01-09-2009, 01:22 PM
Sure, seriously.



They looked pretty good in their bowl game.

ROFL

Bearcat
01-09-2009, 01:25 PM
Missouri is going to have a year next year that resembles the year KU had this year.

Missouri had a year this year that resembles the year KU had this year.

Mr. Arrowhead
01-09-2009, 01:25 PM
i wont take college football seriously until they get a playoff system, until then college football is a total joke

DaKCMan AP
01-09-2009, 01:39 PM
i wont take college football seriously until they get a playoff system, until then college football is a total joke

No offense, but no one really cares whether you take college football seriously or not.

vailpass
01-09-2009, 01:42 PM
i wont take college football seriously until they get a playoff system, until then college football is a total joke

I for one care whether Mr. Arrowhead takes college football seriously.

DaKCMan AP
01-09-2009, 01:42 PM
We need to make a Florida/KCman sub-forum so KCman can stop polluting every other thread with this garbage.

Its getting worse than recxjake and his GM crap.

:deevee:

Deberg_1990
01-09-2009, 01:43 PM
How did USC leap Texas??

Buck
01-09-2009, 01:47 PM
I'm surprised neither Pete Carroll or Mack Brown voted for their teams.

Buck
01-09-2009, 01:48 PM
Oh, and thats a very sexy top 4, I would love to see a playoff...

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vailpass
01-09-2009, 01:50 PM
Oh, and thats a very sexy top 4, I would love to see a playoff...

3 of them are sexy but what's a Ute?/herman munster

Guru
01-09-2009, 02:39 PM
Coaches poll is completely full of crap not putting Utah at 2nd.