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T-post Tom
01-14-2009, 12:46 AM
A Look At Pioli’s Record/Part 1
January 13, 2009 - Bob Gretz |

There are four different avenues that produce players for NFL teams.

There is unrestricted free agency, street free agents or players that have failed with another team and college free agents.

But the biggest pipeline is the NFL Draft.

There is no question that the Super Bowl success of the New England Patriots was built on draft picks. Just about all their key performers came through selections made by Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli (left).

Not a lot is known about just how the Patriots operated in the draft room, but we know Belichick had the final say so. We also know he had a great deal of faith in Pioli and his scouts’ ability to match college players with what Belichick was looking for on his roster. There was most definitely a plan, and most definitely a template for physical characteristics and skills at certain positions.

A team that takes advantage of the draft does two things: it does not make mistakes at the top of the draft and it finds gems in the later rounds, players who make contributions despite being selected late in the process. For the most part, the Patriots did both and that allowed them to win three Super Bowls.

Here’s the list of players the Patriots drafted from 2000-2004.
http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/patriots-draft-picks-2000-2004.html

Here’s the list of players the Patriots drafted from 2005-2008.
http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/new-england-draft-picks-2005-2008.html

And here are some items of interest that come out of analyzing the 77 players the Patriots have selected in the 2000 through 2008 NFL Drafts:

– New England’s average pick in the first round over the last nine years was No. 20. There were no picks in the top five and only two in the top 10 and three in the top half of the draft. Because of their success, they normally held draft positions late in rounds. They had just 14 picks in the top 50 and 26 in the top 100.

– The Patriots did not use picks on small college players. Of those 77 selected, 74 were from major college teams/Division 1. Two were from what used to be called Division 1-AA and they drafted just one small college player: TE Andy Stokes, who was the final player taken in the 2005 Draft out of William Penn University, a NAIA school.

– Not only did the Patriots zero in on major college talent, they looked especially hard at the major conferences. Of those 77 players, 55 were taken from schools in the Atlantic Coast, Big 12, Big 10, Pac-10 and Southeastern Conferences, along with Notre Dame. The Big 12 and SEC led the way with 12 players each.

– Belichick-Pioli hit on their No. 1 picks, as eight of the nine are still with the team. The only one missing is 2002 first-rounder Daniel Graham, who left as a free agent and signed with Denver after five seasons in New England. The remaining eight are all starters for the Patriots: RDE Richard Seymour, LDE Ty Warren, NT Vince Wilfork, TE Ben Watson, LG Logan Mankins, RB Laurence Maroney, S Brandon Meriweather and LB Jerod Mayo.

– As good as they were in the first round, New England was bad in the second round. They had eight choices in that round in nine years, and only two remain with the team: starting left tackle Matt Light and rookie cornerback Terrence Wheatley, who finished the season on the injured-reserve list after playing in seven games

– The Patriots had what could be called the greatest value pick of the decade when they grabbed quarterback Tom Brady with choice No. 199 in the sixth round of the 2000 Draft. Brady went on to become quite possibly the greatest clutch quarterback in the history of the game, leading the team to three Super Bowls.

– They may have done it again with seventh-round choice quarterback Matt Cassel, who came in and replaced the injured Brady in the ‘08 season opener against the Chiefs and went on to a remarkable season for a quarterback who had not been a starter since high school.

– In nine drafts, the highest quarterback selection for the Patriots came in the ‘08 Draft when they took quarterback Kevin O’Connell in the third round with the 94th pick. Only five of the other 31 teams in the league have not drafted a quarterback higher than the 94th spot: Indianapolis, New Orleans, Carolina, Tampa Bay and St. Louis. Some have taken more than one quarterback higher than No. 94.

– As good as the Patriots have been at finding quarterbacks, that’s how bad they’ve been in finding and keeping wide receivers. They’ve drafted six, including a trio of second-round picks. One of those was just two years ago, when they grabbed Florida’s Chad Jackson, but they released him at the end of the ‘08 pre-season. Of the six wide receivers on the roster at the end of the ‘08 season, only one came through the draft: rookie Matthew Slater. Their two starters, Randy Moss and Wes Welker, cost them second, fourth and seventh round picks.

– New England invested a lot of early draft choices along the defensive line, with three first-round picks and one second-rounder among 11 total picks. They only used three early choices along the offensive line, with one first and a pair of second-round choices.

– They selected eight tight ends in nine drafts, including a pair of first-round choices. That’s more first round tight ends than first round quarterbacks/running backs/wide receivers combined.

– Their favorite positions in the draft were linebacker and cornerback, where they’ve selected 10 players each.

jAZ
01-14-2009, 01:06 AM
– New England’s average pick in the first round over the last nine years was No. 20. There were no picks in the top five and only two in the top 10 and three in the top half of the draft.

[...]

– Belichick-Pioli hit on their No. 1 picks, as eight of the nine are still with the team. The only one missing is 2002 first-rounder Daniel Graham, who left as a free agent and signed with Denver after five seasons in New England. The remaining eight are all starters for the Patriots...

Chiefs record? Drafted 5th, 15th, 23rd, 20th, 15th, 27th, 6th, 21st, 14th, 27th... Average: 17th pick.

2008 1 Glenn Dorsey Louisiana State (starter)
2008 1 Branden Albert Virginia (starter)
2007 1 Dwayne Bowe Louisiana State (starter)
2006 1 Tamba Hali Penn State (starter)
2005 1 Derrick O. Johnson Texas (starter)
2004 (none)
2003 1 Larry Johnson Penn State (starter, soon to be gone?)
2002 1 Ryan Sims North Carolina (bust)
2001 (none)
2000 1 Sylvester Morris Jackson State (bust)
1999 1 John Tait Brigham Young (gone)
1998 1 Victor Riley Auburn (bust)

Credit to Herm improving us in this area.

T-post Tom
01-14-2009, 01:18 AM
Chiefs record? Drafted 5th, 15th, 23rd, 20th, 15th, 27th, 6th, 21st, 14th, 27th... Average: 17th pick.

2008 1 Glenn Dorsey Louisiana State (starter)
2008 1 Branden Albert Virginia (starter)
2007 1 Dwayne Bowe Louisiana State (starter)
2006 1 Tamba Hali Penn State (starter)
2005 1 Derrick O. Johnson Texas (starter)
2004 (none)
2003 1 Larry Johnson Penn State (starter, soon to be gone?)
2002 1 Ryan Sims North Carolina (bust)
2001 (none)
2000 1 Sylvester Morris Jackson State (bust)
1999 1 John Tait Brigham Young (gone)
1998 1 Victor Riley Auburn (bust)

Credit to Herm improving us in this area.

Starters...yes. But on a 2-14 team. I'm sold on Albert, but Dorsey is a mystery, Bowe's still dropping balls(not giving up hope), Hali looks overwhelmed as Allen's replacement(LB in 3-4?), DJ has been underwhelming(will a new coaching staff help?), and LJ is a shadow of his former self. Just my humble opinion.

Ebolapox
01-14-2009, 01:21 AM
I just wonder if pioli will have the balls to take a QB in the top three. doesn't seem the pats' M.O, unfortunately.

RustShack
01-14-2009, 01:23 AM
I just wonder if pioli will have the balls to take a QB in the top three. doesn't seem the pats' M.O, unfortunately.

I think Brady was just pure luck and Cassel was the product of the offense the Patriots now have. I think Pioli might want a great QB and take one in the first to begin with instead of trying to strike gold in the later rounds.

T-post Tom
01-14-2009, 01:24 AM
I just wonder if pioli will have the balls to take a QB in the top three. doesn't seem the pats' M.O, unfortunately.


My bet is that he trades down into the 2nd half of the first.

Ebolapox
01-14-2009, 01:26 AM
I think Brady was just pure luck and Cassel was the product of the offense the Patriots now have. I think Pioli might want a great QB and take one in the first to begin with instead of trying to strike gold in the later rounds.

I fucking hope so.

jAZ
01-14-2009, 01:27 AM
Starters...yes. But on a 2-14 team. I'm sold on Albert, but Dorsey is a mystery, Bowe's still dropping balls(not giving up hope), Hali looks overwhelmed as Allen's replacement(LB in 3-4?), DJ has been underwhelming(will a new coaching staff help?), and LJ is a shadow of his former self. Just my humble opinion.

I was trying to show the difference between a well run draft (Pioli) and a spotty draft (Carl). I just realized in the process that Herm deserves credit for improving over Carl. His strength was as a scout, and I think it's reflected in the absence of a Victor Riley, Ryan Sims, Trezell Jenkins, SlyMo, or even an unfortunate John Tait disaster

Ebolapox
01-14-2009, 01:27 AM
My bet is that he trades down into the 2nd half of the first.

I believe our best shot at a franchise QB is stafford. he won't be available in the second half of the first round.

you watch, though. we'll get nate davis in the third round and he'll be the guy. fuck, can lightning strike a third time? (pioli pulling a starting QB out of his ass)

T-post Tom
01-14-2009, 01:31 AM
I was trying to show the difference between a well run draft (Pioli) and a spotty draft (Carl). I just realized in the process that Herm deserves credit for improving over Carl. His strength was as a scout, and I think it's reflected in the absence of a Victor Riley, Ryan Sims, Trezell Jenkins, SlyMo, or even an unfortunate John Tait disaster

Very true. And that's w/o mentioning Junior Saivii. :D

T-post Tom
01-14-2009, 01:40 AM
I believe our best shot at a franchise QB is stafford. he won't be available in the second half of the first round.

you watch, though. we'll get nate davis in the third round and he'll be the guy. ****, can lightning strike a third time? (pioli pulling a starting QB out of his ass)

"...(pioli pulling a starting QB out of his ass)"

Niswanger did it three times in one season.... oh wait, those were three backup QBs... :)

btlook1
01-14-2009, 01:43 AM
I was trying to show the difference between a well run draft (Pioli) and a spotty draft (Carl). I just realized in the process that Herm deserves credit for improving over Carl. His strength was as a scout, and I think it's reflected in the absence of a Victor Riley, Ryan Sims, Trezell Jenkins, SlyMo, or even an unfortunate John Tait disaster

I agree the drafting has improved quite a bit in the last few years. I know the jury is still out on Dorsey but it's just to early to say if he's a bust or not. Bowe and Albert are money in my opinion.
I almost think he should give Herm 1 more year. I think Gun can hit the road though...if Herm screws it up this next year then he can get the boot quickly! Our offense is ok not great but ok. The defense needs some work but with the right GM and Defensive coach we could be contenders in a year or two easily.

Mecca
01-14-2009, 02:14 AM
You can't really judge them on the QB picks, Bledsoe was there as the #1 overall pick and had a a huge franchise player contract when Pioli came in, they use a late round pick on Brady and he becomes a star, they have no reason to use another high pick on a QB.

kobebehar
01-14-2009, 02:16 AM
A Look At Pioli’s Record/Part 1
January 13, 2009 - Bob Gretz |

There are four different avenues that produce players for NFL teams.

There is unrestricted free agency, street free agents or players that have failed with another team and college free agents.

But the biggest pipeline is the NFL Draft.

There is no question that the Super Bowl success of the New England Patriots was built on draft picks. Just about all their key performers came through selections made by Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli (left).

Not a lot is known about just how the Patriots operated in the draft room, but we know Belichick had the final say so. We also know he had a great deal of faith in Pioli and his scouts’ ability to match college players with what Belichick was looking for on his roster. There was most definitely a plan, and most definitely a template for physical characteristics and skills at certain positions.

A team that takes advantage of the draft does two things: it does not make mistakes at the top of the draft and it finds gems in the later rounds, players who make contributions despite being selected late in the process. For the most part, the Patriots did both and that allowed them to win three Super Bowls.

Here’s the list of players the Patriots drafted from 2000-2004.
http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/patriots-draft-picks-2000-2004.html

Here’s the list of players the Patriots drafted from 2005-2008.
http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/new-england-draft-picks-2005-2008.html

And here are some items of interest that come out of analyzing the 77 players the Patriots have selected in the 2000 through 2008 NFL Drafts:

– New England’s average pick in the first round over the last nine years was No. 20. There were no picks in the top five and only two in the top 10 and three in the top half of the draft. Because of their success, they normally held draft positions late in rounds. They had just 14 picks in the top 50 and 26 in the top 100.

– The Patriots did not use picks on small college players. Of those 77 selected, 74 were from major college teams/Division 1. Two were from what used to be called Division 1-AA and they drafted just one small college player: TE Andy Stokes, who was the final player taken in the 2005 Draft out of William Penn University, a NAIA school.

– Not only did the Patriots zero in on major college talent, they looked especially hard at the major conferences. Of those 77 players, 55 were taken from schools in the Atlantic Coast, Big 12, Big 10, Pac-10 and Southeastern Conferences, along with Notre Dame. The Big 12 and SEC led the way with 12 players each.

– Belichick-Pioli hit on their No. 1 picks, as eight of the nine are still with the team. The only one missing is 2002 first-rounder Daniel Graham, who left as a free agent and signed with Denver after five seasons in New England. The remaining eight are all starters for the Patriots: RDE Richard Seymour, LDE Ty Warren, NT Vince Wilfork, TE Ben Watson, LG Logan Mankins, RB Laurence Maroney, S Brandon Meriweather and LB Jerod Mayo.

– As good as they were in the first round, New England was bad in the second round. They had eight choices in that round in nine years, and only two remain with the team: starting left tackle Matt Light and rookie cornerback Terrence Wheatley, who finished the season on the injured-reserve list after playing in seven games

– The Patriots had what could be called the greatest value pick of the decade when they grabbed quarterback Tom Brady with choice No. 199 in the sixth round of the 2000 Draft. Brady went on to become quite possibly the greatest clutch quarterback in the history of the game, leading the team to three Super Bowls.

– They may have done it again with seventh-round choice quarterback Matt Cassel, who came in and replaced the injured Brady in the ‘08 season opener against the Chiefs and went on to a remarkable season for a quarterback who had not been a starter since high school.

– In nine drafts, the highest quarterback selection for the Patriots came in the ‘08 Draft when they took quarterback Kevin O’Connell in the third round with the 94th pick. Only five of the other 31 teams in the league have not drafted a quarterback higher than the 94th spot: Indianapolis, New Orleans, Carolina, Tampa Bay and St. Louis. Some have taken more than one quarterback higher than No. 94.

– As good as the Patriots have been at finding quarterbacks, that’s how bad they’ve been in finding and keeping wide receivers. They’ve drafted six, including a trio of second-round picks. One of those was just two years ago, when they grabbed Florida’s Chad Jackson, but they released him at the end of the ‘08 pre-season. Of the six wide receivers on the roster at the end of the ‘08 season, only one came through the draft: rookie Matthew Slater. Their two starters, Randy Moss and Wes Welker, cost them second, fourth and seventh round picks.

– New England invested a lot of early draft choices along the defensive line, with three first-round picks and one second-rounder among 11 total picks. They only used three early choices along the offensive line, with one first and a pair of second-round choices.

– They selected eight tight ends in nine drafts, including a pair of first-round choices. That’s more first round tight ends than first round quarterbacks/running backs/wide receivers combined.

– Their favorite positions in the draft were linebacker and cornerback, where they’ve selected 10 players each.

Interesting. Im thinking you guys could definitely do with some depth at TE.

the 3rd pick might be a little high, so trade down to ten or eleven and get Darius Hill.

milkman
01-14-2009, 04:35 AM
I agree the drafting has improved quite a bit in the last few years. I know the jury is still out on Dorsey but it's just to early to say if he's a bust or not. Bowe and Albert are money in my opinion.
I almost think he should give Herm 1 more year. I think Gun can hit the road though...if Herm screws it up this next year then he can get the boot quickly! Our offense is ok not great but ok. The defense needs some work but with the right GM and Defensive coach we could be contenders in a year or two easily.

There's no way in hell one (possibly) good draft can justify keeping a fucking idiot who has no idea how to manage a game.

kstater
01-14-2009, 05:08 AM
I just wonder if pioli will have the balls to take a QB in the top three. doesn't seem the pats' M.O, unfortunately.

They haven't exactly had a reason to draft a QB high, nor the opportunity.

TipRoast
01-14-2009, 05:15 AM
You can't really judge them on the QB picks, Bledsoe was there as the #1 overall pick and had a a huge franchise player contract when Pioli came in, they use a late round pick on Brady and he becomes a star, they have no reason to use another high pick on a QB.
Belichick and Pioli were never that impressed by Bledsoe.

And Brady was targeted by QB coach Dick Rehbein (now deceased). He saw the intangibles while everyone else focused on the measurables (slow, skinny, average arm).

Brady had a much better pre-season than Bledsoe in 2001; it was only Bledsoe's contract that kept him as the starter (and I'm a Bledsoe fan - he and Parcells are the reasons the Patriots aren't a joke franchise anymore). There's a theory that even without Bledsoe's injury, Brady would have been the starter for game 3 that season,

Mecca
01-14-2009, 05:33 AM
Belichick and Pioli were never that impressed by Bledsoe.

And Brady was targeted by QB coach Dick Rehbein (now deceased). He saw the intangibles while everyone else focused on the measurables (slow, skinny, average arm).

Brady had a much better pre-season than Bledsoe in 2001; it was only Bledsoe's contract that kept him as the starter (and I'm a Bledsoe fan - he and Parcells are the reasons the Patriots aren't a joke franchise anymore). There's a theory that even without Bledsoe's injury, Brady would have been the starter for game 3 that season,

That all may be true but they weren't going to drop a 1st round pick on a QB with the contract Bledsoe had at the time.

People can point out how they haven't used high picks on QB's, but they've really never been in the position to need to do that.

TipRoast
01-14-2009, 05:50 AM
That all may be true but they weren't going to drop a 1st round pick on a QB with the contract Bledsoe had at the time.

People can point out how they haven't used high picks on QB's, but they've really never been in the position to need to do that.

You're correct, of course, but given their experience of winning a SB with a 6th round pick, and winning 11 games with a QB that hadn't started since high school and was a 7th round pick, I don't think they would ever use a high draft pick on a QB.

They seem to use really high draft picks only on defensive linemen. I think you'll see the same this year. Sure, you have Dorsey, but the Pats had Seymour and picked Ty Warren. And they had Seymour and Warren and took Wilfork.

Look at the success the Vikings had with the Williams Wall. It takes more than one elite player to build a defensive front.

Amnorix
01-14-2009, 07:00 AM
A Look At Pioli’s Record/Part 1
January 13, 2009 - Bob Gretz |

As good as they were in the first round, New England was bad in the second round. They had eight choices in that round in nine years, and only two remain with the team: starting left tackle Matt Light and rookie cornerback Terrence Wheatley, who finished the season on the injured-reserve list after playing in seven games

This is a bit overblown. While the second round picks have not been consistently great or anything, and include such notable busts as Bethel Johnson, it also included Deion freaking Branch, whom Gretz completely ignores, and Eugene Wilson, who was a very good starting safety for us for several years before his career rather inexplicably went into the toilet.

– As good as the Patriots have been at finding quarterbacks, that’s how bad they’ve been in finding and keeping wide receivers. They’ve drafted six, including a trio of second-round picks. One of those was just two years ago, when they grabbed Florida’s Chad Jackson, but they released him at the end of the ‘08 pre-season. Of the six wide receivers on the roster at the end of the ‘08 season, only one came through the draft: rookie Matthew Slater. Their two starters, Randy Moss and Wes Welker, cost them second, fourth and seventh round picks.

Again, SLIGHT exaggeration in my view. Deion Branch was fantastic but left town for more $$$. David Givens was a steal in the 7th round, but left via FA for more $$$ with the Titans and then had very serious injuries that have derailed his career entirely.


– Their favorite positions in the draft were linebacker and cornerback, where they’ve selected 10 players each.

Slightly misleading only in that HIGH picks are typically not used on LBs or CBs, so you don't notice them much. Mayo this past draft was our first LB pick in the first, heck, 3 rounds I think, since BB/SP have been running the draft. We've had no 1st round CB picks that I can think of.

It's clear the Patriots focus on the players that are involved in EVERY Play high in the draft. Offensive and defensive lines, tight ends (who are either blocking or catching on every play), etc. WRs and CBs get alot less love in the 1st round, to be sure, usually getting some 2nd or later round atttention instead.

Amnorix
01-14-2009, 07:01 AM
They seem to use really high draft picks only on defensive linemen. I think you'll see the same this year. Sure, you have Dorsey, but the Pats had Seymour and picked Ty Warren. And they had Seymour and Warren and took Wilfork.

I don't disagree, but Wilfork fell in the draft right into our laps at 21, and we needed a NG, so it was a perfect fit. It's not like they had to go far out of their way or anything.

Amnorix
01-14-2009, 07:02 AM
I just wonder if pioli will have the balls to take a QB in the top three. doesn't seem the pats' M.O, unfortunately.

If he thinks he's the best fit for your team over any other player, of course he will.

The Patriots didn't take a QB high because they had absolutely no need of taking a QB high...

Amnorix
01-14-2009, 07:03 AM
My bet is that he trades down into the 2nd half of the first.

I think he'll look to slide back, but probably not that far. Also, it would likely take two deals to slide back quite that much.

Ebolapox
01-14-2009, 07:18 AM
of course, you guys are absolutely correct. there's just a part of me (and a lot of chiefs fans) who haven't been spoiled by franchise QB after franchise QB (back to back to back--bledsoe, brady, and MAYBE cassell). maybe it's the system, maybe it's the talent evaluators. obviously, I'm hoping for the latter.

KCJohnny
01-14-2009, 07:30 AM
The Pats have a rep (deserved) for having the NFL's deepest bench. That said, the draft record of Pioli/Belichick underwhelms me.

Amnorix
01-14-2009, 07:32 AM
The Pats have a rep (deserved) for having the NFL's deepest bench. That said, the draft record of Pioli/Belichick underwhelms me.

Whose draft record do you like better. Outside of **maybe** Polian at Indy and the Ravens, I'm not sure there's anyone who could possibly be better.

KCJohnny
01-14-2009, 07:36 AM
Whose draft record do you like better. Outside of **maybe** Polian at Indy and the Ravens, I'm not sure there's anyone who could possibly be better.

Did you read this?

Not a lot is known about just how the Patriots operated in the draft room, but we know Belichick had the final say so.

I'm not a big college/draft fan, so I'm the wrong person to ask. I'm glad Pioli's hired, I'm just not sure (as Gretz stated) how much of the Patsies' success was B-cick and how much was Pioli. FWIW, I think Pioli is inheriting some real nice young talent in KC.

tomahawk kid
01-14-2009, 07:36 AM
Anyone else get a "sour grapes" feel from Blob's article?

It's going to be interesting to see what happens once "Don" Pioli complete shuts down Gretz's access.

The Bad Guy
01-14-2009, 07:41 AM
If you think Herm should be kept one more year, you shouldn't be allowed to watch football.

thurman merman
01-14-2009, 07:46 AM
Only five of the other 31 teams in the league have not drafted a quarterback higher than the 94th spot: Indianapolis, New Orleans, Carolina, Tampa Bay and St. Louis. Some have taken more than one quarterback higher than No. 94.


peyton manning was not drafted higher than the 94th spot?

eazyb81
01-14-2009, 07:46 AM
Did you read this?



I'm not a big college/draft fan, so I'm the wrong person to ask. I'm glad Pioli's hired, I'm just not sure (as Gretz stated) how much of the Patsies' success was B-cick and how much was Pioli. FWIW, I think Pioli is inheriting some real nice young talent in KC.

Not sure where you got that quote, but both Pioli and Bellichick have said they each had veto power on each other.

Amnorix
01-14-2009, 07:48 AM
peyton manning was not drafted higher than the 94th spot?

I assume that it meant "since the 2000 draft" (when the Pats took Brady in the 6th round), only these teams...

Obviously, Indy took Peyton high, and obviously, EVERY team has taken a QB before 94 at some point in their franchise history.

milkman
01-14-2009, 07:51 AM
Did you read this?



I'm not a big college/draft fan, so I'm the wrong person to ask. I'm glad Pioli's hired, I'm just not sure (as Gretz stated) how much of the Patsies' success was B-cick and how much was Pioli. FWIW, I think Pioli is inheriting some real nice young talent in KC.

All you have to do is give this a little bit of thought (I know that's asking a lot of you).

Bill Bellichick is the head coach of the Patriots.
He doesn't have time to go on scouting trips, or to pour through the hours upon hours of tape on players in college.

That job fell to Scott Pioli.

He has to pare down potential draft candidates to much, much smaller list.

BB has the final say, but there's no way that you can look at the Patriots draft and fail to give Pioli a huge amount of credit for the work that's been done there.

eazyb81
01-14-2009, 07:51 AM
You're correct, of course, but given their experience of winning a SB with a 6th round pick, and winning 11 games with a QB that hadn't started since high school and was a 7th round pick, I don't think they would ever use a high draft pick on a QB.

They seem to use really high draft picks only on defensive linemen. I think you'll see the same this year. Sure, you have Dorsey, but the Pats had Seymour and picked Ty Warren. And they had Seymour and Warren and took Wilfork.

Look at the success the Vikings had with the Williams Wall. It takes more than one elite player to build a defensive front.

Agree, but at this point it doesn't look like there are going to be any D-linemen worth taking with the #3 overall pick. So Pioli is either going to have to take another position at that pick or trade down.

BJ Raji would be an interesting pick if we traded down. He would provide the versatility NE typically looks for in D-linemen, as he could be our NT in a 3-4 and also dominate within a 4-3.

Messier
01-14-2009, 07:53 AM
Chiefs record? Drafted 5th, 15th, 23rd, 20th, 15th, 27th, 6th, 21st, 14th, 27th... Average: 17th pick.

2008 1 Glenn Dorsey Louisiana State (starter)
2008 1 Branden Albert Virginia (starter)
2007 1 Dwayne Bowe Louisiana State (starter)
2006 1 Tamba Hali Penn State (starter)
2005 1 Derrick O. Johnson Texas (starter)
2004 (none)
2003 1 Larry Johnson Penn State (starter, soon to be gone?)
2002 1 Ryan Sims North Carolina (bust)
2001 (none)
2000 1 Sylvester Morris Jackson State (bust)
1999 1 John Tait Brigham Young (gone)
1998 1 Victor Riley Auburn (bust)

Credit to Herm improving us in this area.

I disagree that Riley was a bust. He gave the Chiefs four solid years at RT before leaving to the Saints in FA, and I think he had to retire early due to injuries.

Ebolapox
01-14-2009, 07:56 AM
I disagree that Riley was a bust. He gave the Chiefs four solid years at RT before leaving to the Saints in FA, and I think he had to retire early due to injuries.

yep. in an alternate universe, riley and tait are the starting tackles on our super bowl winning dynasty.

Otter
01-14-2009, 08:16 AM
If you think Herm should be kept one more year, you shouldn't be allowed to watch football.

Agreed. Some sort of shock collar system where any football game that's on the person who thinks The Germ should be kept get's zapped until the channel is changed.

Go watch soccer.

BigRedChief
01-14-2009, 08:17 AM
The Pats have a rep (deserved) for having the NFL's deepest bench. That said, the draft record of Pioli/Belichick underwhelms me.
The new Falcons GM brought in last year worked under Pioli. Pioli was his boss. They couldn't get Pioli so they took the 2nd best guy. What did Pioli's #2 do?

Drafted Ryan with the 3rd pick in the draft who King Carl and Herm felt would be a flop. Thats turned out pretty well.

Paid a big money FA contract to LT's backup out of SD, michal turner. What did he so? Ran for over 1,300 yards(I think thats right). Most of the NFL thought they overpaid and he would just be an average run of the mill RB out of LT's shadow.

Gave the job to an older coach who had never been a head coach in the NFL. He's getting results on the field and his players love him.

Every single one of those moves paid off and in one year for the Falcons and they went from a laughing stock to the playoffs.

milkman
01-14-2009, 08:27 AM
The new Falcons GM brought in last year worked under Pioli. Pioli was his boss. They couldn't get Pioli so they took the 2nd best guy. What did Pioli's #2 do?

Drafted Ryan with the 3rd pick in the draft who King Carl and Herm felt would be a flop. Thats turned out pretty well.

Paid a big money FA contract to LT's backup out of SD, michal turner. What did he so? Ran for over 1,300 yards(I think thats right). Most of the NFL thought they overpaid and he would just be an average run of the mill RB out of LT's shadow.

Gave the job to an older coach who had never been a head coach in the NFL. He's getting results on the field and his players love him.

Every single one of those moves paid off and in one year for the Falcons and they went from a laughing stock to the playoffs.

Turner ran for 1699 yards.

Amnorix
01-14-2009, 08:40 AM
All you have to do is give this a little bit of thought (I know that's asking a lot of you).

Bill Bellichick is the head coach of the Patriots.
He doesn't have time to go on scouting trips, or to pour through the hours upon hours of tape on players in college.

That job fell to Scott Pioli.

He has to pare down potential draft candidates to much, much smaller list.

BB has the final say, but there's no way that you can look at the Patriots draft and fail to give Pioli a huge amount of credit for the work that's been done there.

You are correct as far as you go, with Pioli doing alot of the scouting, both film and individually, durign the season.

My understanding is that the pared down list that Pioli is primarily in charge of creating then gets handed to BB, who also does a ton of film work (big surprise, I know) on those players on the list, and of course deals directly with scouts.

It would be a vast mistake to think that BB was passive or uninvolved in the drafting process.

All that said, I take nothing away from Pioli, who headed the entire scouting process, and had shared veto power with BB in the draft room.

Amnorix
01-14-2009, 08:42 AM
Agree, but at this point it doesn't look like there are going to be any D-linemen worth taking with the #3 overall pick. So Pioli is either going to have to take another position at that pick or trade down.

BJ Raji would be an interesting pick if we traded down. He would provide the versatility NE typically looks for in D-linemen, as he could be our NT in a 3-4 and also dominate within a 4-3.

I imagine Pioli will be lookiing to slide down, unless he has someone he really likes. Of course, it takes two to tango.

milkman
01-14-2009, 08:45 AM
You are correct as far as you go, with Pioli doing alot of the scouting, both film and individually, durign the season.

My understanding is that the pared down list that Pioli is primarily in charge of creating then gets handed to BB, who also does a ton of film work (big surprise, I know) on those players on the list, and of course deals directly with scouts.

It would be a vast mistake to think that BB was passive or uninvolved in the drafting process.

All that said, I take nothing away from Pioli, who headed the entire scouting process, and had shared veto power with BB in the draft room.

I didn't suggest that BB was passive and ininvolved.

My point is that Pioli has to be a damn good evaluator that sees the types of players that fit into the Patriots system in order for the Patriots evaluation process to work as well as it does.

Amnorix
01-14-2009, 09:04 AM
I didn't suggest that BB was passive and ininvolved.

My point is that Pioli has to be a damn good evaluator that sees the types of players that fit into the Patriots system in order for the Patriots evaluation process to work as well as it does.

Yes. Pioli's biggest challenge, to be honest, will be to find and get a coach that he can be 100% on the same page with so that he can get exactly the types of players that the coach wants to have in his system.

This leads me to believe that someone from the BB coaching tree will likely be his choice. Whether that's Ferentz or Schwartz or whomever I don't know, but it would make things a little easier for Pioli to find the guys the coach needs.

milkman
01-14-2009, 09:08 AM
Yes. Pioli's biggest challenge, to be honest, will be to find and get a coach that he can be 100% on the same page with so that he can get exactly the types of players that the coach wants to have in his system.

This leads me to believe that someone from the BB coaching tree will likely be his choice. Whether that's Ferentz or Schwartz or whomever I don't know, but it would make things a little easier for Pioli to find the guys the coach needs.

There's the PFT piece that says that Pioli isn't exactly a fan of Shwartz.

Everyone else (ESPN, Shefter) seems to think that Shwartz would be at the top of his list, along with Ferentz.

RINGLEADER
01-14-2009, 09:27 AM
I was trying to show the difference between a well run draft (Pioli) and a spotty draft (Carl). I just realized in the process that Herm deserves credit for improving over Carl. His strength was as a scout, and I think it's reflected in the absence of a Victor Riley, Ryan Sims, Trezell Jenkins, SlyMo, or even an unfortunate John Tait disaster

Victor Riley was a three-year starter before getting injured and traded to the Saints where he again put in a couple years as a starter. I wouldn't call him a bust. Nor would I label SlyMo a bust, he had a terrible injury that ended his career but seemed to be a promising talent his rookie year.

But I get your point -- it gets worse when you look at the second round picks:

2008 - Brandon Flowers (looks to be solid)
2007 - Turk McBride (???)
2006 - Bernard Pollard (starter, but not a good one)
2004 - Junior Savaii (bust)
2004 - Kris Wilson (gone)
2003 - Kawika Mitchell (gone)
2002 - Eddie Freeman (bust)
2000 - William Bartee (bust)

Chiefnj2
01-14-2009, 09:41 AM
Other than Ferentz and Schwartz, who else does Pioli have connections to that might be a darkhorse candidate? The coach from Fresno State? (Hill?)

Amnorix
01-14-2009, 09:52 AM
Other than Ferentz and Schwartz, who else does Pioli have connections to that might be a darkhorse candidate? The coach from Fresno State? (Hill?)

Yes, Hill.

The list is endless. BB has 34 years in the NFL, and he and SP have tons of college contacts. Heck, you might get an Urban Meyer assistant coach for one of your positions or whatever.

Amnorix
01-14-2009, 09:53 AM
There's the PFT piece that says that Pioli isn't exactly a fan of Shwartz.

Everyone else (ESPN, Shefter) seems to think that Shwartz would be at the top of his list, along with Ferentz.

I have no clue. Schwartz and BB are on good terms, I understand, but maybe SP/Schwartz didn't hit it off for whatever reason.