PDA

View Full Version : Home and Auto Van shopping part deux


Guru
01-29-2009, 10:42 PM
Back to the old drawing board.

I had a 2008 Chrysler Town and Country Touring with 24k miles and talked them into including the Lifetime PowerTrain Warranty free (normally $1650 extra) for $17,995 lined up but, after my first test drive last week I found a problem with the shift from 1st to 2nd. They looked into it and determined it needed a new part. They then chose to replace the entire transmission with a brand new unit. Okay, fine. Today I went back to test drive it again and now after I finish the drive, there is a ticking coming from the engine when it is shut off. They tell me it is just the "heat shield" cooling off. This ticking is loud though. bordering on annoying. They agree to put it back up on the rack tomorrow morning to look it over and see if it could be anything else.

So, I am also looking at a 2005 Honda Odyssey EXL with 52k miles for $18,816 that has leather seats and a DVD system and a limited 3 yr 100k mile warranty. 48k miles left on that.

I have also looked at a 2007 Hyundai Entourage base model (no power anything) and a ugly tan interior fabric with 13k miles for $13,988. My major problem with this is that the cockpit is too small for my 6'2" frame and the fact it is base model.

I want to go with the T&C but am very concerned over the "ticking" issue. If the other vehicles I tested made the same noise I wouldn't be worried about it but they don't make that noise. I even drove another 2008 T&C and a 2008 Dodge Grand Caravan SXT (exact same as T&C) no ticking. Problem with the others I drove is that they can't come close to the price of the one mentioned above.

Any thoughts?

DaneMcCloud
01-29-2009, 10:43 PM
Honda Pilot?

Guru
01-29-2009, 10:44 PM
Link for the Honda
http://www.sharphonda.com/VehicleDetails/337286893

Link for the T&C
http://www.johnhofferchryslerjeep.com/used-inventory/vehicle-details.htm?vehicleId=32a237444046381e0003f37718f7ebdb

Guru
01-29-2009, 10:45 PM
Honda Pilot?Doesn't support a family of 6 and luggage.

Toadkiller
01-29-2009, 10:46 PM
I love our odyssey.

Frosty
01-29-2009, 10:46 PM
T&C = ex-rental car. Run away!!

DaneMcCloud
01-29-2009, 10:46 PM
Wouldn't you be better off buying a brand new Honda Pilot or the like?

Used cars usually end up costing more than new ones due to maintenance, IMO.

Edit: I posted after your post. Sorry, I got nuthin'! Good Luck!

Extra Point
01-29-2009, 10:48 PM
They'll make it right by "stress relieving" the suspect heat shield. You got a good deal, and the dealer's trying to make it right. Mention to them that you're really thinking about returning it if you have any more problems. See what they have to say.

Johnny Vegas
01-29-2009, 10:51 PM
I just bought a 2008 Ford Taurus X SEL and I love it! With a car trade of $3,500 in and $3,600 down I got a loan for $12,000 that includes a 5 year warranty bumper to bumper. Its a crossover and is considered a truck. It seats 6 has a 3rd row, captain seats in the second row with center console(friends love that feature), 16/22 MPG's, AWD. It has 20,000 miles on it though. That's why I got it at the price I did.

When a 2008 car is already making noises take it off the list. It's not worth the trouble.

Toadkiller
01-29-2009, 10:51 PM
I owned a Chrysler 300m and it was the worst car we ever bought. Bought it new, had to turn the first one in with the lemon law and got another new one and it was 5 years of troubles. I finally donated the damn thing and bought something else. I would never ever ever ever ever buy another chrysler again, talk about craptacular.

Guru
01-29-2009, 10:52 PM
They'll make it right by "stress relieving" the suspect heat shield. You got a good deal, and the dealer's trying to make it right. Mention to them that you're really thinking about returning it if you have any more problems. See what they have to say. Technically, no paperwork has been signed and the vehicle has never left their lot at all so I still am allowed to back out of the "verbal" sale. I do appreciate what they are doing for me but, at the same time, this is all work that should have been done prior to putting it on the lot. One of the salesmen have been using it for the last 6 months as their personal vehicle. How the hell do you drive it for 6 months and not notice a transmission issue. I noticed it the minute I drove it off the lot on the test drive.

Johnny Vegas
01-29-2009, 10:52 PM
I just bought a 2008 Ford Taurus X SEL and I love it! With a car trade of $3,500 in and $3,600 down I got a loan for $12,000 that includes a 5 year warranty bumper to bumper. Its a crossover and is considered a truck. It seats 6 has a 3rd row, captain seats in the second row with center console(friends love that feature), 16/22 MPG's, AWD. It has 20,000 miles on it though. That's why I got it at the price I did.

When a 2008 car is already making noises take it off the list. It's not worth the trouble.

not mine, but same car.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/2008_Ford_Taurus_X_SEL.jpg

Guru
01-29-2009, 10:53 PM
I owned a Chrysler 300m and it was the worst car we ever bought. Bought it new, had to turn the first one in with the lemon law and got another new one and it was 5 years of troubles. I finally donated the damn thing and bought something else. I would never ever ever ever ever buy another chrysler again, talk about craptacular.I was very happy with our 2007 T&C until that idiot totaled it for me last week.

Guru
01-29-2009, 10:54 PM
Wouldn't you be better off buying a brand new Honda Pilot or the like?

Used cars usually end up costing more than new ones due to maintenance, IMO.

Edit: I posted after your post. Sorry, I got nuthin'! Good Luck!AFter what just happened to us, we will never buy brand new again.

Johnny Vegas
01-29-2009, 10:57 PM
not mine, but same car.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/2008_Ford_Taurus_X_SEL.jpg

Oh I forgot to mention it also has 260 HP and you can buy a tow package for it if you decide to tow.

Guru
01-29-2009, 10:59 PM
Great, just looked up the carfax report on the Odyssey and it has 3 reported accidents on it. Too bad it doesn't tell you the severity of the accidents. It definitely didn't look damaged at all.

DeezNutz
01-29-2009, 11:22 PM
I even drove another 2008 T&C and a 2008 Dodge Grand Caravan SXT (exact same as T&C) no ticking. Problem with the others I drove is that they can't come close to the price of the one mentioned above.

Any thoughts?

There might be a very good reason that they're willing to give you such a "good" deal on the other T&C.

Several of my good friends are in the car business, and the stories I hear...*shudder* Dirty, dirty business.

I know there are some decent dealers, sales folk, too, but lots of dirty ones. Lots.

Guru
01-29-2009, 11:36 PM
I am getting more frustrated as the night goes on. I only have my rental until Monday afternoon. fuck

Frosty
01-29-2009, 11:49 PM
Well, don't buy something in a panic, because that will just make matters worse.

Guru
01-30-2009, 12:09 AM
Well, don't buy something in a panic, because that will just make matters worse.Have a vehicle to lend me? Pisses me off that we had a vehicle all lined up only to not be happy with the outcome.:huh:

KcMizzou
01-30-2009, 01:31 AM
You're worried about a "ticking" when the engine isn't running?

It's annoying?

Pfft... Much ado about nothing.

If there were a "ticking" when the engine is running, you'd have cause for concern.

Guru
01-30-2009, 01:40 AM
You're worried about a "ticking" when the engine isn't running?

It's annoying?

Pfft... Much ado about nothing.

If there were a "ticking" when the engine is running, you'd have cause for concern.Do you know what the hell it is then? I'm just frustrated. That tick everytime I pull into the garage will bug me.

wouldn't be so bad if I didn't just watch $6000 walk out the door because some guy wasn't paying attention.

KcMizzou
01-30-2009, 01:49 AM
Do you know what the hell it is then? I'm just frustrated. That tick everytime I pull into the garage will bug me.

wouldn't be so bad if I didn't just watch $6000 walk out the door because some guy wasn't paying attention.Sadly, I don't.

I'm just saying that whatever it is, it's not anything major.

Worry about the ticking sound if it happens when the engine is running.

Guru
01-30-2009, 01:52 AM
Sadly, I don't.

I'm just saying that whatever it is, it's not anything major.

Worry about the ticking sound when the engine is running.Believe me, part of me wants to see it that way. The other part keeps wondering what is hiding under the hood that will bite me in the ass 1 year form now because I decided it was nothing.

Granted we didn't own the 2007 long enough to know if anything would have cropped up later on it but damn I loved that van.

Johnny Vegas
01-30-2009, 02:39 AM
schedule a inspection with a shop that you trust and take in during a test drive. That might insure your decision on that vehicle.

SPchief
01-30-2009, 03:20 AM
The ticking is more than likely the oil

Saggysack
01-30-2009, 03:45 AM
When metal cools it can make a ticking sound. My guess would be the exhaust system cooling down. It's common in every vehicle.

Guru
01-30-2009, 03:55 AM
The ticking is more than likely the oilwhat?:spock:

unlurking
01-30-2009, 03:56 AM
When metal cools it can make a ticking sound. My guess would be the exhaust system cooling down. It's common in every vehicle.
Have had this on a few vehicles in the past (American made only). Never was a problem.

Guru
01-30-2009, 03:56 AM
When metal cools it can make a ticking sound. My guess would be the exhaust system cooling down. It's common in every vehicle.I do understand that. Its just that this particular van is very loud for it to be that. The other vans I drove you really had to listen to hear any of the cooling "clicks". I could hear this one from 20 yards away clearly.

unlurking
01-30-2009, 04:15 AM
Personally, I'd pass based on the Carfax reports.

Gotta think that if the ticking noise annoys/concerns you this badly now, it's going to piss you off for a long time. Imagine hearing it every day for the next 5 years, always wondering when it's gonna break down. You have a bad day, getting outta the car at home and listening to the ticking isn't going to help you decompress, it's gonna just give another thing to be pissed about it.

Just say no.

Guru
01-30-2009, 04:17 AM
Personally, I'd pass based on the Carfax reports.

Gotta think that if the ticking noise annoys/concerns you this badly now, it's going to piss you off for a long time. Imagine hearing it every day for the next 5 years, always wondering when it's gonna break down. You have a bad day, getting outta the car at home and listening to the ticking isn't going to help you decompress, it's gonna just give another thing to be pissed about it.

Just say no.The Carfax reports I mentioned were for the Honda not the T&C.

Unless you just ran a carfax report on the T&C and would like to share. :)

unlurking
01-30-2009, 04:21 AM
Ooops!

Only on my 4th cup 'o joe, still not reading clearly yet!

Guru
01-30-2009, 04:29 AM
I'm hoping they can remedy the "tick" when they look at it this morning. I certainly don't remember it doing that after my first test drive last Friday when I discovered the transmission issue they have since fixed.

Keep in mind, the only reason I am still considering the T&C is because of the lifetime powertrain warranty. If it didn't have that, I would even be looking at it.

I did find a 2005 T&C Limited at a small used lot with only 28k miles and asking $12,990 for it. Just can't get myself to look into it though.

unlurking
01-30-2009, 04:51 AM
If the ticking noise is heat related, you won't hear it on short drives. If the first time you drove it the engine was cold and only took it for a few miles, it probably never got up to temp. For me, the ticking was also more pronounced on cold weather days.

Next time you test drive, make sure you get the temperature gauge up to operating temp for a bit, then get on the highway and run a couple miles at high RPM. Go back to the shop and listen for the sound.

Personally, I've never had the ticking generate any other problem, but it is annoying and kind of embarrassing (hate squealing breaks too). I've had enough other problems however, that I'll never buy used again though.

Saggysack
01-30-2009, 04:53 AM
I do understand that. Its just that this particular van is very loud for it to be that. The other vans I drove you really had to listen to hear any of the cooling "clicks". I could hear this one from 20 yards away clearly.

That does sound strange. I'd pass on it. Every car lot is filled with vehicles. Even though you don't think you have time to be selective, you do.

I'd pass on a new vehicle anyway. Too overpriced for something that you will only lose money on anyway, 30% the minute you sign. I never buy new or lease and never have problems.

My wife wanted a van a few years ago. So I went out and got her one. 2001 Ford Windstar(I know, I know). In the 2 years we have had it, it hasn't skipped a beat. She's happy and I'm happy with the $120mos. payments. Any new vehicle can't beat that as far as I'm concerned.

Guru
01-30-2009, 04:57 AM
That does sound strange. I'd pass on it. Every car lot is filled with vehicles. Even though you don't think you have time to be selective, you do.

I'd pass on a new vehicle anyway. Too overpriced for something that you will only lose money on anyway, 30% the minute you sign. I never buy new or lease and never have problems.

My wife wanted a van a few years ago. So I went out and got her one. 2001 Ford Windstar(I know, I know). In the 2 years we have had it, it hasn't skipped a beat. She's happy and I'm happy with the $120mos. payments. Any new vehicle can't beat that as far as I'm concerned.Oh, it's not new. It already has a year under its belt so the largest part of the depreciation is already gone. The second year is not nearly as bad.

The only problem I have with the other vans I have seen is that they have a shit ton of miles on them. It's hard to consider going to a 2 year old van with 40-50k miles on it when the van you had spent the last 18 months driving only had 10k miles on it.

MahiMike
01-30-2009, 06:18 AM
IMO, you're talking about a 2008 car that had to have its tranny replaced already. I wouldn't even consider the same brand/model if that's the case. Just don't get in a hurry. And DON't tell the dealer you are driving a rental.

MahiMike
01-30-2009, 06:20 AM
FWIW, you can get awesome deals on the big tanks right now; suburban, explorer. I've heard of brand news ones going for $12K. That buys a lotta gas. Or get a used one for $10K. It'll get you buy until you find a new van.

angelo
01-30-2009, 06:50 AM
I am getting more frustrated as the night goes on. I only have my rental until Monday afternoon. ****

I was in your situation last year. My car was totaled in my front lawn.
You can compel the insurance company to extend the rental until you have a car. I had mine almost 6 weeks.

Angelo

angelo
01-30-2009, 06:56 AM
Guru

You should check the dealer in Kansas City.

I found 4 in your mileage and price range @ cars .com

Angelo

cookster50
01-30-2009, 06:59 AM
edmunds.com gave horrid reviews of the newer T&C, stay away, far far away. Pretend that the T&C is a hot chick and you are gochiefs.

Lzen
01-30-2009, 08:12 AM
Great, just looked up the carfax report on the Odyssey and it has 3 reported accidents on it. Too bad it doesn't tell you the severity of the accidents. It definitely didn't look damaged at all.

Wait, did you pay for the premium or is that just 3 things on the report that you don't know what they are until you buy a carfax subscription? Reason I ask is that those could be normal things like transfer of ownership.

Lzen
01-30-2009, 08:20 AM
Guru

You should check the dealer in Kansas City.

I found 4 in your mileage and price range @ cars .com

Angelo

This. You typically find better prices in the KC area. I just bought a vehicle one year ago for a Ford dealership in Olathe. Much better price than the same vehicle here, for sure. Trust me, I have looked. 2 of my last 3 newer (never buy brand new) vehicle purchases have been in KC.

The only reason I bought my truck in Topeka (Briggs 3.5 years ago) is because they really, really wanted to sell me a vehicle and knew I wasn't screwing around when the wife and I got up and started walking out because they would not come down enough on the price.

Lzen
01-30-2009, 08:21 AM
edmunds.com gave horrid reviews of the newer T&C, stay away, far far away. Pretend that the T&C is a hot chick and you are gochiefs.

Interesting. Doesn't Chrysler/Dodge have a reputation for having transmission problems? I would think that them replacing that tranny already would be a big time red flag.

mikeyis4dcats.
01-30-2009, 08:50 AM
Guru,

A buddy of mine works at Briggs. If you call him, he'll treat you right. PM sent.

dtebbe
01-30-2009, 09:45 AM
Just buy the Honda and be happy. Change the oil, and replace the timing belt at 100k just to be safe. The wife has a 2003 Pilot (same powertrain) that we bought new and it has 81k. Nothing but routine maint. so far. Gets 18 mpg around town and about 24-26 on long trips. Quality is outstanding. Still as tight and taunt as when it was new. Leather still looks great. Did have a radio go up in flames, but found a refurb replacement one for $225 (we have the factory dual zone DVD system).

DT

StcChief
01-30-2009, 09:58 AM
I would be leary of T&C new tranny, the heat shield normal. Look around. Honda makes a solid van, resale good.

Frosty
01-30-2009, 12:00 PM
Hey Guru - if you decide to go with that T&C, be sure to call Chrysler customer care with the VIN and double check that powertrain warranty and make sure it transfers. Also make sure that the warranty isn't voided if this turns out to be a fleet (rental) car.

Guru
01-30-2009, 01:22 PM
Wait, did you pay for the premium or is that just 3 things on the report that you don't know what they are until you buy a carfax subscription? Reason I ask is that those could be normal things like transfer of ownership.On that one, Honda provided me with the report on their website. It is the full report and specifically lists 3 reported accidents. The only thing I don't know is the severity of the accident.

Guru
01-30-2009, 01:29 PM
Interesting. Doesn't Chrysler/Dodge have a reputation for having transmission problems? I would think that them replacing that tranny already would be a big time red flag.Believe me, it is.

The positive side is that it is new. The negative side is that the first one failed only a year into it.

JASONSAUTO
01-30-2009, 01:32 PM
Believe me, it is.

The positive side is that it is new. The negative side is that the first one failed only a year into it.

what WARRRanty will they give on the new trans?

Guru
01-30-2009, 01:37 PM
what WARRRanty will they give on the new trans?It is a lifetime powertrain warranty. It's a good warranty but at the same time, I don't want to be in the shop every 2 years either. As much as I would like to buy this van the little problems are giving me a bad feeling about it.

Lzen
01-30-2009, 01:50 PM
It is a lifetime powertrain warranty. It's a good warranty but at the same time, I don't want to be in the shop every 2 years either. As much as I would like to buy this van the little problems are giving me a bad feeling about it.

Then that should be enough to just say no. Never buy a vehicle that gives you a bad feeling.

Caseykid
01-30-2009, 04:09 PM
I've had two Chrysler vans, still own a 2001 T & C Limited. The transmissions are notorious for going out. Replaced three in my 1990 van (two while under warranty) and had to replace one in the 2001 a month after I bought the vehicle. Only bought the 2001because it was an incredible deal. I had already factored in the cost of a transmission before I bought it and was hoping it would go a few years before I would have to replace it. So much for that! Even though you say you are getting a lifetime powertrain warranty, I would advise you to walk away. With Chryslers (the Company) financial situation right now, and the probable fine print, I would be wary of the deal. Just my two cents.

Jim

rad
01-30-2009, 05:32 PM
I've had two Chrysler vans, still own a 2001 T & C Limited. The transmissions are notorious for going out. Replaced three in my 1990 van (two while under warranty) and had to replace one in the 2001 a month after I bought the vehicle. Only bought the 2001because it was an incredible deal. I had already factored in the cost of a transmission before I bought it and was hoping it would go a few years before I would have to replace it. So much for that! Even though you say you are getting a lifetime powertrain warranty, I would advise you to walk away. With Chryslers (the Company) financial situation right now, and the probable fine print, I would be wary of the deal. Just my two cents.

Jim

Whew! I'm glad I went with Dodge instead!

JASONSAUTO
01-30-2009, 05:41 PM
It is a lifetime powertrain warranty. It's a good warranty but at the same time, I don't want to be in the shop every 2 years either. As much as I would like to buy this van the little problems are giving me a bad feeling about it.

the chrysler's also have rack and pinion issues, and it seems that if you need to turn the rotors you might as well replace them, you will end up doing it in the long run they usually just warp again. it is very common with the caravan/T&C

Guru
01-30-2009, 07:01 PM
found 2005 T&C Limited for 12,800 with only 28k miles but it sold 2 hours before I got there damnit. Guess I shouldn't sleep. heh

Looking at a 2006 T&C Limited now with 27k miles and they are asking $16,800 for it. Based on Edmunds it looks overpriced and should be around $15k to $15.8k. Only 7 months left on the warranty and an extended for 5 years would run me 2k.

don't know if it is worth it or not. Nice vehicle though.

Also, how many of you purchase extended warranties?

Frosty
01-30-2009, 07:21 PM
Also, how many of you purchase extended warranties?

I didn't, but if you do, only buy from the manufacturer. Third party EW's aren't worth the paper they are written on.

Go to Edmunds and look through their forum, particularly the Smart Shopper forum. There is quite a bit there about EW's. You can buy an EW from any dealer in the country and there are some really good deals out there.

WilliamTheIrish
01-30-2009, 07:56 PM
Technically, no paperwork has been signed and the vehicle has never left their lot at all so I still am allowed to back out of the "verbal" sale. I do appreciate what they are doing for me but, at the same time, this is all work that should have been done prior to putting it on the lot. One of the salesmen have been using it for the last 6 months as their personal vehicle. How the hell do you drive it for 6 months and not notice a transmission issue. I noticed it the minute I drove it off the lot on the test drive.

Get away from that car. Now.

Guru
01-30-2009, 08:16 PM
Get away from that car. Now.Direct. To the point. I like it.:)

PastorMikH
01-30-2009, 09:15 PM
Also, how many of you purchase extended warranties?



I bought the extended warranty on both my GMC Safari and Chevy Astro vans - after standard warranty repairs on each paid for the cost of the extended warranties and then some.

I passed on my Titan. Though I have a bit more faith in the quality of Nissans over GMs. (However, I have not heard much good at all about the Nissan Quest Van so I wouldn't recommend it to you.)

DaFace
01-30-2009, 09:19 PM
I owned a Chrysler 300m and it was the worst car we ever bought. Bought it new, had to turn the first one in with the lemon law and got another new one and it was 5 years of troubles. I finally donated the damn thing and bought something else. I would never ever ever ever ever buy another chrysler again, talk about craptacular.

Interesting. I've really liked mine. My only complaints are that the interior parts are crap (I've replaced all four door pulls once, and three of those are broken again), and that they put the damn battery down in front of the wheel well. That makes it a MAJOR PITA if you ever have to troubleshoot the damn thing.

Guru
01-30-2009, 11:33 PM
Damn, I am running out of options.

googlegoogle
01-31-2009, 01:59 AM
Vans are so uncool now.

We need more competition in the auto industry.

We need to let more good designers get top jobs.

American car companies = anti ipod coolness. More like soviet inspired autos.

Guru
01-31-2009, 12:09 PM
Purchased a 2005 Honda Odyssey EX-L. Now I hope to hell that I get 150k to 200k miles on this thing like everyone says. heh

Scorp
01-31-2009, 12:15 PM
Purchased a 2005 Honda Odyssey EX-L. Now I hope to hell that I get 150k to 200k miles on this thing like everyone says. heh

We have a 2002 Honda Odyssey, it has been very reliable for the 3 years we have owned it.

JASONSAUTO
01-31-2009, 12:22 PM
I didn't, but if you do, only buy from the manufacturer. Third party EW's aren't worth the paper they are written on.

Go to Edmunds and look through their forum, particularly the Smart Shopper forum. There is quite a bit there about EW's. You can buy an EW from any dealer in the country and there are some really good deals out there.

this is the god's honest truth. we deal with ALOT of these things and people hardly ever get anything paid for. it's VERY TOUGH trust me on this

JASONSAUTO
01-31-2009, 12:23 PM
Purchased a 2005 Honda Odyssey EX-L. Now I hope to hell that I get 150k to 200k miles on this thing like everyone says. heh

you should

DaFace
01-31-2009, 12:25 PM
this is the god's honest truth. we deal with ALOT of these things and people hardly ever get anything paid for. it's VERY TOUGH trust me on this

Heh.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1006/80051744kc4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

JASONSAUTO
01-31-2009, 01:03 PM
Heh.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1006/80051744kc4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

sorry but it's true

DaFace
01-31-2009, 01:04 PM
sorry but it's true

Oh, I agree. I was laughing at the fact that we have an ad for a 3rd-party warranty at the bottom of the thread dissing them.

JASONSAUTO
01-31-2009, 01:26 PM
Oh, I agree. I was laughing at the fact that we have an ad for a 3rd-party warranty at the bottom of the thread dissing them.

i know ROFL

burt
01-31-2009, 01:35 PM
Purchased a 2005 Honda Odyssey EX-L. Now I hope to hell that I get 150k to 200k miles on this thing like everyone says. heh

Guru, after 20 years in the automobile industry, I feel that the Odyssey is the best mini van on the market. Good job.

Guru
01-31-2009, 04:30 PM
Guru, after 20 years in the automobile industry, I feel that the Odyssey is the best mini van on the market. Good job.I even talked them down $1900 which is quite a feat for me. heh

Frosty
01-31-2009, 05:36 PM
Purchased a 2005 Honda Odyssey EX-L. Now I hope to hell that I get 150k to 200k miles on this thing like everyone says. heh

HemiEd's head just exploded.

Guru
01-31-2009, 05:58 PM
HemiEd's head just exploded.Something tells me he is just fine.

Guru
01-31-2009, 05:59 PM
By the way, if anyone needs any Autocheck reports I have 58 days left.