Title Loan Sham.

[Micjones]

I just learned how title loans work.

A friend of mine is in deep shit now that her car's been possessed.
Where in the world is the protection for borrowers?
States are allowing these businesses to run wild.

She borrowed $800 from the company in exchange for her title.
She's been making steady monthly payments, but the interest reduces those (small) payments to next-to-nothing.

As a result... The company has repossessed her car and are threatening to auction it off 15 days from now if she can't produce $2,000.

How on earth is it legal for a creditor to keep more than the borrower owed?

I thought the payday/signature loan business was bad.
This sounds worse.

[kstater]

I'd advise anyone taking any loan to read the contract 1st. Saves a lot of trouble.

[Demonpenz]

I just a couple cars like that

[Pestilence]

Sorry for your friend but she shouldn't have taken one of these retarded loans out. These and check cashing places are the worst things ever.

[Fritz88]

I just learned how title loans work.

A friend of mine is in deep shit now that her car's been possessed.
Where in the world is the protection for borrowers?
States are allowing these businesses to run wild.

She borrowed $800 from the company in exchange for her title.
She's been making steady monthly payments, but the interest reduces those (small) payments to next-to-nothing.

As a result... The company has repossessed her car and are threatening to auction it off 15 days from now if she can't produce $2,000.

How on earth is it legal for a creditor to keep more than the borrower owed?

I thought the payday/signature loan business was bad.
This sounds worse.

interest is shit and it's one of the main reasons we are in this deep shit economic downturn.

[Fritz88]

I just a couple cars like that

wha?

[Micjones]

I'd advise anyone taking any loan to read the contract 1st. Saves a lot of trouble.

Indeed.

Though she was in such a bad spot she willingly took the risk to make ends meet in another area.

I just read a story about a guy in Georgia who borrowed 2 grand on his wife's car (2004 Ford Expedition) and when he was only able to pay 40% of the (first) $507 finance charge they repo'd the car and sold it. It was worth $13,000.

I think the interest on the contract was something like 25%.
What's that work out to...? Something like 300%?

That's insane!

[OnTheWarpath58]

Sorry for your friend but she shouldn't have taken one of these retarded loans out. These and check cashing places are the worst things ever.

This.

How high are the interest rates?
The loan is written with an interest rate
for a short time period. For example,
the loan will show a 25% interest rate
for one month. But this rate over a year
is actually 300%. Auto Title Lenders
will usually write a loan for 30 days or
less. At the end of the month, the
lender will accept the interest payment
and allow the debt to be “rolled over”
for another month. On a $600 loan, the
interest would be approximately $150.
This means you owe $750. If you only
pay $150 for the month, you will owe
$750 the next month.

[Hoover]

Obama will get it back for her.

The title of this thread should be READ THE FU@KING CONTRACT

[Micjones]

Sorry for your friend but she shouldn't have taken one of these retarded loans out. These and check cashing places are the worst things ever.

Tell me about it. I worked for a signature loan company here in Kansas City a few years ago that was as predatory as anything I'd ever heard of.

People (mostly elderly) would come in and borrow something like $400 and be into this company for $1600 when it was all said and done.

There was a big expose' on this guy's business practices in The Pitch a couple years back.

Great commission checks, but I felt bad working there.

[Micjones]

Obama will get it back for her.

The title of this thread should be READ THE FU@KING CONTRACT

She read the contract.
She was in a bind and needed the money.

Even though such practices are legal they are hardly ethical.
The state should offer protection against businesses like these.

[Mr. Plow]

Since Obama has been President, I haven't had to make a mortgage payment, a loan payment, or pay any of my utilities.

LIFE IS GREAT!!

[Micjones]

Could we kindly avoid the Obama-bashing and stay on topic?
Damn...

We could be having a conversation on car stereos and someone would find a way to slip an Obama jab in.

"And while we're on the subject of great speakers...Did you see that oath Obama flubbed?"

[Mr. Plow]

Could we kindly avoid the Obama-bashing and stay on topic?
Damn...

We could be having a conversation on car stereos and someone would find a way to slip an Obama jab in.

"And while we're on the subject of great speakers...Did you see that oath Obama flubbed?"

Did you see how Obama couldn't stay on topic.........


Kidding.

[Donger]

She read the contract.
She was in a bind and needed the money.

Even though such practices are legal they are hardly ethical.
The state should offer protection against businesses like these.

She read the contract, understood it, signed it and she needs "state protection?"

How about some personal responsibility?

[OnTheWarpath58]

She read the contract, understood it, signed it and she needs "state protection?"

How about some personal responsibility?

Or some common sense.

Sorry, mic, I know it's a friend, but you have to be living in a cave for the past 25 years to not know that title/payday loans are going to make your already bleak situation worse.

[eazyb81]

She read the contract.
She was in a bind and needed the money.

Even though such practices are legal they are hardly ethical.
The state should offer protection against businesses like these.

No offense, but are you implying we should regulate stupidity?

Who declares which loans are ethical and which are unethical?

You admit that she knew it was a bad contract yet agreed to it anyways. Maybe I'm insensitive, but I have a hard time feeling bad for her because she is apparently unresponsible with her money.

[stlchiefs]

Tell me about it. I worked for a signature loan company here in Kansas City a few years ago that was as predatory as anything I'd ever heard of.

People (mostly elderly) would come in and borrow something like $400 and be into this company for $1600 when it was all said and done.

There was a big expose' on this guy's business practices in The Pitch a couple years back.

Great commission checks, but I felt bad working there.

Pictures different from the other side of the street now isn't it?

[Mr. Plow]

Maybe we could all chip in to get her back on her feet.

[OnTheWarpath58]

Maybe we could all chip in to get her back on her feet.

Hold on, let me go get a payday loan to come up with my share.

[stlchiefs]

Maybe we could all chip in to get her back on her feet.

You mean a bailout? Where do I sign up?

[Mr. Plow]

You mean a bailout? Where do I sign up?


http://www.obamarulesnobillsforme.com (http://www.obamarulesnobillsforme.com/)

[stumppy]

Tell me about it. I worked for a signature loan company here in Kansas City a few years ago that was as predatory as anything I'd ever heard of.

People (mostly elderly) would come in and borrow something like $400 and be into this company for $1600 when it was all said and done.

There was a big expose' on this guy's business practices in The Pitch a couple years back.

Great commission checks, but I felt bad working there.


ROFL

Just not bad enough huh ?

[memyselfI]

I just learned how title loans work.

A friend of mine is in deep shit now that her car's been possessed.
Where in the world is the protection for borrowers?
States are allowing these businesses to run wild.

She borrowed $800 from the company in exchange for her title.
She's been making steady monthly payments, but the interest reduces those (small) payments to next-to-nothing.

As a result... The company has repossessed her car and are threatening to auction it off 15 days from now if she can't produce $2,000.

How on earth is it legal for a creditor to keep more than the borrower owed?

I thought the payday/signature loan business was bad.
This sounds worse.

Can we stop acting like this is a total moron taking out the loan. Have you not heard of the millions of people in this country who buy things on a credit card at 21-28% interest and then pay the minimum payment each month???

They end up doing the same damn thing but over a longer period of time and there are literally tens of millions of people doing this.

[Saul Good]

Can we stop acting like this is a total moron taking out the loan. Have you not heard of the millions of people in this country who buy things on a credit card at 21-28% interest and then pay the minimum payment each month???

They end up doing the same damn thing but over a longer period of time and there are literally tens of millions of people doing this.

And there are literally tens of millions of morons in this country.

[OnTheWarpath58]

And there are literally tens of millions of morons in this country.

Esto.

[Mr. Plow]

And there are literally tens of millions of morons in this country.

I think half of them reside on here some days.

[memyselfI]

And there are literally tens of millions of morons in this country.

Yes, there are but if there weren't what would happen to our economy? It might have tanked a long time ago without them. :doh!:

[Saul Good]

She read the contract.
She was in a bind and needed the money.

Even though such practices are legal they are hardly ethical.
The state should offer protection against businesses like these.

Is she really the victim here? Let's take a look at the situation and see what we can infer.

She was in a bind, so she went to a title loan company. If she was in such a bind, why didn't she go to a credit union or a bank to get a loan? Probably because she couldn't get a loan from a credit union or a bank.

Why couldn't she get a loan from a credit union or a bank? Probably because she has bad credit.

Why does she have bad credit? Probably because she has a history of borrowing money and not paying it back.

I'm not going to defend predatory lenders, and title loan companies are scum in my book, but that doesn't make your friend a victim. Just about anyone who has to resort to using predatory lenders does so because they have their own history of being a predatory borrower. If someone borrows money to buy things they don't need with money they don't have and racks up bills that they can't pay, that person is no better than a payday loan company, and they get what they deserve. This doesn't apply in all scenarios, but it's a strong majority.

[Saul Good]

Yes, there are but if there weren't what would happen to our economy? It might have tanked a long time ago without them. :doh!:

These morons are what destroyed the economy. They took out these stupid mortgages on houses that they couldn't afford, and they cried to Big Brother and Uncle Sam about it. On the flip side, the banks were buying up paper without looking at how ridiculous the loans were.

Smart people who don't spend money that they don't have or make loans to people who can't ever possibly hope to repay them aren't the ones who wrecked the economy.

[stumppy]

Can we stop acting like this is a total moron taking out the loan. Have you not heard of the millions of people in this country who buy things on a credit card at 21-28% interest and then pay the minimum payment each month???

They end up doing the same damn thing but over a longer period of time and there are literally tens of millions of people doing this.

If you think the business practices/interest rates/ or , well, basically anything at all is comparible to title loan comapnies you have no idea what you're talking about.

[memyselfI]

These morons are what destroyed the economy. They took out these stupid mortgages on houses that they couldn't afford, and they cried to Big Brother and Uncle Sam about it. On the flip side, the banks were buying up paper without looking at how ridiculous the loans were.

Smart people who don't spend money that they don't have or make loans to people who can't ever possibly hope to repay them aren't the ones who wrecked the economy.

These morons were able to get the loan because of lax to no regulation, predatory lending, dishonest realtors and mortgage brokers and, YES, because they were unrealistic in what they could afford and untruthful in what they would pay.

[Saul Good]

If you think the business practices/interest rates/ or , well, basically anything at all is comparible to title loan comapnies you have no idea what you're talking about.

That's true, but let's not act like credit card companies are ethical, either. They have nicer buildings than title/payday loan companies, but they are snakes just the same.

If you take one piece of simple financial advice in your life, take this one; Do not purchase anything on a credit card. Don't borrow money for anything except a house, for that matter.

[Saul Good]

These morons were able to get the loan because of lax to no regulation, predatory lending, dishonest realtors and mortgage brokers and, YES, because they were unrealistic in what they could afford and untruthful in what they would pay.

Who cares if it was regulated or not? If the government would keep its hands out of this stuff, the unethical lenders and irresponsible companies would be the only ones getting burned.

If these companies didn't think that the government would bail them out, they wouldn't have been making these loans in the first place. Boy did we show them how wrong they were. They won't do that again...What bailout?

[OnTheWarpath58]

That's true, but let's not act like credit card companies are ethical, either. They have nicer buildings than title/payday loan companies, but they are snakes just the same.

If you take one piece of simple financial advice in your life, take this one; Do not carry a balance on a credit card. Don't borrow money for anything except a house, for that matter.

FYP.

Smart people return the favor on the credit card companies, by paying in full each month, avoiding interest and taking advantage of rewards programs.

I have a house full of shit from paying my bills with my AMEX card.

[stumppy]

That's true, but let's not act like credit card companies are ethical, either. They have nicer buildings than title/payday loan companies, but they are snakes just the same.

If you take one piece of simple financial advice in your life, take this one; Do not purchase anything on a credit card. Don't borrow money for anything except a house, for that matter.

Oh I agree. But the title loan companies are in a league of their own.

[eazyb81]

Is she really the victim here? Let's take a look at the situation and see what we can infer.

She was in a bind, so she went to a title loan company. If she was in such a bind, why didn't she go to a credit union or a bank to get a loan? Probably because she couldn't get a loan from a credit union or a bank.

Why couldn't she get a loan from a credit union or a bank? Probably because she has bad credit.

Why does she have bad credit? Probably because she has a history of borrowing money and not paying it back.

I'm not going to defend predatory lenders, and title loan companies are scum in my book, but that doesn't make your friend a victim. Just about anyone who has to resort to using predatory lenders does so because they have their own history of being a predatory borrower. If someone borrows money to buy things they don't need with money they don't have and racks up bills that they can't pay, that person is no better than a payday loan company, and they get what they deserve. This doesn't apply in all scenarios, but it's a strong majority.

This basically sums it up.

[eazyb81]

That's true, but let's not act like credit card companies are ethical, either. They have nicer buildings than title/payday loan companies, but they are snakes just the same.

If you take one piece of simple financial advice in your life, take this one; Do not purchase anything on a credit card. Don't borrow money for anything except a house, for that matter.

You lost me here. Credit is a wonderful concept if you use it responsibly.

[Mr. Plow]

You lost me here. Credit is a wonderful concept if you use it responsibly.

Bingo. I'm currently digging out of a little hole, but you can do good things with credit - as long as you do it responsibly.

[JASONSAUTO]

If you take one piece of simple financial advice in your life, take this one; Do not purchase anything on a credit card. Don't borrow money for anything except a house, for that matter.

IF i use my credit card i pay it in full that month,i have NEVER paid one dime of interest on it, the only 2 loans i have ever gotten were for the house and the shop. i feel the exact same way

[memyselfI]

Who cares if it was regulated or not? If the government would keep its hands out of this stuff, the unethical lenders and irresponsible companies would be the only ones getting burned.

If these companies didn't think that the government would bail them out, they wouldn't have been making these loans in the first place. Boy did we show them how wrong they were. They won't do that again...What bailout?



You are right.

But if you think about it they created an industry they knew would be troublesome and would be bailed out. The entire subprime industry was targeted at people with no credit, immigrants, the poor and elderly. These people are not politically powerful enough to demand financial products that would provide protections for them while enabling them to obtain a home they could afford. Nope. The market and the products were not created for them or for that reason.

It was a risky business invented to give risky people dangerous and unethical products they were unable or unwilling to educate themselves about. The calculation was the banks could invent these products and then insulate themselves from the risk by repackaging and spreading the risk. It was never about the downtrodden but always about the banks making money on risk and knowing the government would be there to fix it when they failed.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

People who are stupid and people who lack common sense absolutely need state protection. Because everybody else preys on them and takes advantage of them every single chance they get. Greed is a helluva drug.

[Micjones]

She read the contract, understood it, signed it and she needs "state protection?"

How about some personal responsibility?

Can't be predatory lending if people agree to it, right?
Even you're smarter than this Donger.

Obviously she's learned a valuable lesson, but to be dismissive about how these companies are taking advantage of people is...well...mighty Republican of you.

[Micjones]

Or some common sense.

Sorry, mic, I know it's a friend, but you have to be living in a cave for the past 25 years to not know that title/payday loans are going to make your already bleak situation worse.

Some people play the odds and come away from the experience unscathed.
I've done that with payday loans in the past. Guess I'm lucky.
I did learn my lesson though.

I think you tend to oversimplify though.
People aren't taking these risks to go shopping.
Often times this is the difference between paying a bill and your kids having to lay their head in a cold apartment for a month.

All it takes is desperation. This is hardly a matter of consumers being stupid.

[Micjones]

No offense, but are you implying we should regulate stupidity?

There should be regulation for predatory lending practices, yes.
Why is that such a difficult idea to wrap your head around?

Who declares which loans are ethical and which are unethical?

You're going to argue for the ethics of a loan that works out to 300%?
Really?

You admit that she knew it was a bad contract yet agreed to it anyways. Maybe I'm insensitive, but I have a hard time feeling bad for her because she is apparently unresponsible with her money.

I'd caution you not to throw words like "stupid" around when you use words like 'unresponsible'. Just sayin...

[Micjones]

ROFL

Just not bad enough huh ?

I felt awful in fact.
And I no longer work there for the record.

[KC Fish]

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<embed src="http://www.hulu.com/embed/J4vJO8oTo5zAO0QrO_sbLQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="296" width="512"></object>

[Micjones]

I'm not going to defend predatory lenders, and title loan companies are scum in my book, but that doesn't make your friend a victim.

Let me make sure I've got this down right.

You agree that there are in fact predatory lending practices in play, but you refuse to accept the fact that she's being victimized by them?

I'm guessing here, but I would imagine that victim is probably a pretty accurate antonym for "predator". Just sayin...

Just about anyone who has to resort to using predatory lenders does so because they have their own history of being a predatory borrower.

In some cases this is absolutely true.

In others...you're off base.
Sometimes a person with "no credit" (often just as debilitative as "bad credit") gets ensnared in situations like these.

It's not as cut-and-dry as you make it.

If I had known she was standing in need of a loan beforehand I would never have allowed her to make this decision. So I can understand the concept of personal responsibility.

Let's just be careful lumping everyone who indulges into one big category of "unresponsible" idiots.

[Pittsie]

The irony of the explosion of microlending (at reasonable interest rates) in the 3rd world and state-sanctioned predatory lending in this country is delicious.

[Micjones]

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<embed src="http://www.hulu.com/embed/J4vJO8oTo5zAO0QrO_sbLQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="296" width="512"></object>

Hilarious.

Problematic at the same time though.
Again, this isn't a by-product of a careless weekend trip to Oak Park Mall with a credit-card wielding madwoman.

This is a case of someone who needed an immediate solution to an immediate problem...for an immediate NEED.

It's cute to say, "don't buy something you can't afford."
It's another to tell your children that 60 degree room temperature is normal and necessary to avoiding future financial problems.

[KCTitus]

Let me make sure I've got this down right.

You agree that there are in fact predatory lending practices in play, but you refuse to accept the fact that she's being victimized by them?

I'm guessing here, but I would imagine that victim is probably a pretty accurate antonym for "predator". Just sayin...


Did the Title Loan company put a gun to your friends head and force them to take the loan?

If Yes, she's a victim.

If No, she's irresponsible at best.

[H5N1]

her car was possessed? I'm pretty sure stephen king wrote a book about that. and didn't that dude from baywatch star in a show with a possessed car?

[MTG#10]

Because of Obama Im inspired to be the next entrepreneur.

http://blogs.bet.com/news/youthvote/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/100608_obamafraternity.jpg

[Micjones]

People who are stupid and people who lack common sense absolutely need state protection. Because everybody else preys on them and takes advantage of them every single chance they get. Greed is a helluva drug.

Flops you don't have to fall into either category to find yourself in such a situation. Again, this recipe only calls for desperation.

[KC Fish]

Let me make sure I've got this down right.

You agree that there are in fact predatory lending practices in play, but you refuse to accept the fact that she's being victimized by them?

Mic.... you yourself said that these loans are legal, albeit unethical. You can't really expect companies to refrain from legally taking advantage of the poor fortune or ignorance of others.

[RedNeckRaider]

You and I have debated before. This person agreed to the terms, fact. Are there people who prey on the weak the answer is yes. This person agreed to the terms, what is it that you find wrong? BTW Jesus was not black he was from the middle east so I will buy a person of color, but claiming black is a reach, as far a Regan that is just silly, and 911 well to take that stance is a bigger reach than portraying someone who agrees to do something and does not as a victim.

[KC Fish]

Hilarious.

Problematic at the same time though.
Again, this isn't a by-product of a careless weekend trip to Oak Park Mall with a credit-card wielding madwoman.

This is a case of someone who needed an immediate solution to an immediate problem...for an immediate NEED.

It's cute to say, "don't buy something you can't afford."
It's another to tell your children that 60 degree room temperature is normal and necessary to avoiding future financial problems.

I am sorry to hear about your your friend. Honestly. But in my experience, the folks that find themselves in need of immediate solutions such as this are generally the ones that are bad with money/responsibility in the first place. And don't take that as looking down on anyone. A good portion of my own family would be added to that category. My own mother was scammed out of $1K just a while back by some douchebag promising millions in return from a $1K investment. People make bad mistakes sometimes, and it doesn't mean that they're an idiot.

Sucks for your friend, but hopefully she'll learn from this. And I do hope she recovers from the mess.

[Micjones]

Mic.... you yourself said that these loans are legal, albeit unethical. You can't really expect companies to refrain from legally taking advantage of the poor fortune or ignorance of others.

It was once perfectly legal to own another human being in this country.
Legalities have never been much of a barometer for what is just, fair, and equitable.

[beavis]

Who would have thought a title loan was a bad deal?

[RedNeckRaider]

Who would have thought a title loan was a bad deal?

:clap:

[DeezNutz]

Since Obama has been President, I haven't had to make a mortgage payment, a loan payment, or pay any of my utilities.

LIFE IS GREAT!!

Where did you pick up your free gas card, cause I'm going to need to fill up soon?

I helped him, so I need to know where to get my return reach around.

[KC Fish]

You and I have debated before. This person agreed to the terms, fact. Are there people who prey on the weak the answer is yes. This person agreed to the terms, what is it that you find wrong? BTW Jesus was not black he was from the middle east so I will buy a person of color, but claiming black is a reach, as far a Regan that is just silly, and 911 well to take that stance is a bigger reach than portraying someone who agrees to do something and does not as a victim.

The quote you're referring to in his sig is from a very entertaining show called the Boondocks.

http://www.partialtogrey.com/photos/uncategorized/boondocks.jpg

And what's it matter what color Jesus was? Does it give you comfort thinking he was white? Because it shouldn't matter.

[Micjones]

This person agreed to the terms, fact. Are there people who prey on the weak the answer is yes. This person agreed to the terms, what is it that you find wrong?

We've been over this. The creditor's actions are perfectly legal given the contract and the letter of the law.

I'm talking about the ethics of such predatory lending practices.
You're conveniently mum on that part of the issue.

BTW Jesus was not black he was from the middle east so I will buy a person of color, but claiming black is a reach, as far a Regan that is just silly, and 911 well to take that stance is a bigger reach than portraying someone who agrees to do something and does not as a victim.

1. My signature has nothing at all to do with the current topic.
2. You don't get the obvious reference.
3. I won't debate this with you here.

[Micjones]

I am sorry to hear about your your friend. Honestly. But in my experience, the folks that find themselves in need of immediate solutions such as this are generally the ones that are bad with money/responsibility in the first place.

I tend to agree.

Though I still think something has to be said about practices that create larger holes for people who fall into this category.

Sucks for your friend, but hopefully she'll learn from this. And I do hope she recovers from the mess.

She's learned a very valuable (expensive) lesson for sure.

[RedNeckRaider]

The quote you're referring to in his sig is from a very entertaining show called the Boondocks.

http://www.partialtogrey.com/photos/uncategorized/boondocks.jpg

And what's it matter what color Jesus was? Does it give you comfort thinking he was white? Because it shouldn't matter.

Sorry I am old school, if you do not mean it do not say it. If you do back that weak ass shit up!

[RedNeckRaider]

We've been over this. The creditor's actions are perfectly legal given the contract and the letter of the law.

I'm talking about the ethics of such predatory lending practices.
You're conveniently mum on that part of the issue.



1. My signature has nothing at all to do with the current topic.
2. You don't get the obvious reference.
3. I won't debate this with you here.

Mum my ass when I say I will do something I do it. I do not play the victim card. as far as your sig that is a joke and if you are not willing to back it up why would you put it out there? You have not a clue where I came from! Dirt floor poor son.

[KC Fish]

Sorry I am old school, if you do not mean it do not say it. If you do back that weak ass shit up!

Back the weak ass shit up? Why would you be offended here? If Jesus weren't white, would it make a difference to you? Do you think Jesus would want you to choose to follow Him for reasons such as sharing his skin color?

It really doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter. And 2000 years ago, the region from which Jesus came was strictly dominated by non-Caucasians. It's not at all unlikely that Jesus was dark skinned. And I don't care a bit if he was. If you believe in what He stood for, you wouldn't either.

[Fairplay]

Tell me about it. I worked for a signature loan company here in Kansas City a few years ago that was as predatory as anything I'd ever heard of.

People (mostly elderly) would come in and borrow something like $400 and be into this company for $1600 when it was all said and done.

There was a big expose' on this guy's business practices in The Pitch a couple years back.

Great commission checks, but I felt bad working there.

Damn, that is sad. I hate seeing people taken advantaged of. But in the end, it is the result of their own actions. What else can you say?

[RedNeckRaider]

Back the weak ass shit up? Why would you be offended here? If Jesus weren't white, would it make a difference to you? Do you think Jesus would want you to choose to follow Him for reasons such as sharing his skin color?

It really doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter. And 2000 years ago, the region from which Jesus came was strictly dominated by non-Caucasians. It's not at all unlikely that Jesus was dark skinned. And I don't care a bit if he was. If you believe in what He stood for, you wouldn't either.

As I said he was a person of color. But if I was to put in my sig he was (insert race here) I would back that weak ass shit up.

[Fairplay]

Who would have thought a title loan was a bad deal?


And the truth shall set you free.

[KC Fish]

As I said he was a person of color. But if I was to put in my sig he was (insert race here) I would back that weak ass shit up.

So "person of color" is OK as long as I don't specifically indicate which color? Race had nothing to do with it. Black isn't a race.

[RedNeckRaider]

So "person of color" is OK as long as I don't specifically indicate which color? Race had nothing to do with it. Black isn't a race.

I guess you are going for the high ground. Go ahead play the easy play. Gosh we would not want to take a stance as it may offend.

[Skip Towne]

I didn't even know what a "title loan" was until I opened this thread

[blueballs]

Praying on the elderly who can't pay for their medicine should not be legal
some people may be stupid for taking out these loans
just make sure your home and autos are locked when that 300% interest payment is due

[blueballs]

now that's some trickle down economics

[beach tribe]

I haven't read the thread, but there is nothing wrong with what the title loan company did. She signed a CONTRACT that said if she didn't meet certain demands they would take her car. Then she defaulted on her promises, and oh hell, what do you know, they took her car. I'm shocked. She probably took that loan to pay off other contracts that she defaulted on. Sorry. I don't feel sorry for her.

[Micjones]

Sorry I am old school, if you do not mean it do not say it. If you do back that weak ass shit up!

I'm not going to let you hijack my thread with something completely off-topic.

[Micjones]

I haven't read the thread, but there is nothing wrong with what the title loan company did. She signed a CONTRACT that said if she didn't meet certain demands they would take her car. Then she defaulted on her promises, and oh hell, what do you know, they took her car. I'm shocked. She probably took that loan to pay off other contracts that she defaulted on. Sorry. I don't feel sorry for her.

Well... Aren't you a barrel full of baseless accusations?

She was making regular payments. They simply weren't enough to satisfy the outrageous demands of the contract.

But, carry on... I expect you to drone on about how the contract was perfectly legal (a point I conceded from the outset) without offering a response to why such unethical and predatory lending practices should go unchecked.

[beach tribe]

Well... Aren't you a barrel full of baseless accusations?

She was making regular payments. They simply weren't enough to satisfy the outrageous demands of the contract.

But, carry on... I expect you to drone on about how the contract was perfectly legal (a point I conceded from the outset) without offering a response to why such unethical and predatory lending practices should go unchecked.

I'm sorry mic. I'm not trying to be an ass, but if she was making the minimum requirements of what the contract stated they would not be able possess her property. You even state yourself that the contract was outrageous, and she couldn't meet the demands. So are you saying that she just didn't read the contract?

If I get a loan from the bank to buy a corvette, and after reading the details of the finance agreement, (Knowing that I probably can't make the payments) decide to put my car up as collateral, am I supposed to get pissed when they come, and collect both cars after I miss a few payments.

I know this is your friend, and you're pissed. I'm actually sorry I said I don't feel bad for her. That was very insensitive. I've had my car repossessed before. It sucks. I do feel bad for her. But fact is, my car was repoed because I was young, and completely irresponsible, and I would be willing to bet that your friend's irresponsibility is what led to her current circumstances. You live, and you learn, and this will probably teach her a valuable lesson she will never forget.

And I will not address the ethics of such practices, because these kinds of predators are not going away.

[Saul Good]

It was once perfectly legal to own another human being in this country.
Legalities have never been much of a barometer for what is just, fair, and equitable.

I understand that you are using slavery to make a point regarding legality versus morality, but it's a pretty poor comparison and probably undermines your point due to the stark contrast of the situations.

Owning another human being was done against that person's will. Signing the loan was done of her own free will. You continue to cast her as the victim here, and maybe she is. If anything, she's the victim of her own poor decision making.

I get that she is desperate, and that is why she made this poor decision, but I highly doubt that she has spent a lifetime making strong financial decisions leading up to this moment. I have compassion for her, as it's an awful situation, but it is one of her own making.

You could argue that, if she really was that desperate, the loan company provided her a valuable service. If that money was the difference between life and death or something extremely severe, maybe a car was a small price to pay.

[Saul Good]

Can't be predatory lending if people agree to it, right?
Even you're smarter than this Donger.

Obviously she's learned a valuable lesson, but to be dismissive about how these companies are taking advantage of people is...well...mighty Republican of you.

You use Republican as a pejorative here to insult him for believing in personal accountability...how mighty Liberal of you.

I don't see Donger saying that it isn't predatory, but she walked into their store and asked for the loan of her own volition. There are plenty of businesses that I feel overcharge for their product, but as long as they aren't monopolies selling necessities, we have the choice to buy or not to buy their products.

Walk into a jewelry store. They will sell you a tiny rock for several thousand dollars if you ask for one. I doubt that most would argue that we should shut down jewelry stores.

Don't worry, though. Your friend will likely get bailed out with government assistance of one form or another.

[phillip]

Haha, thread backfire.

There is regulation of contracts like this at common law. Its called unconscionability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability

[WilliamTheIrish]

Title loan companies are predatory. It doesn't make them illegal. The good news is she only lost her car. One step down from title loans is loan shark. Miss the points on that and you lose more than the car.

And it is irresponsibility that leads to losses like this. Yes, she may have been getting money for an immediate need, but decisions made months or years previous can be the irresponsible behavior that leads to todays crisis.

I wish her well. It's tough to sit here and judge folks when they are down on their luck.

[WilliamTheIrish]

If I had known she was standing in need of a loan beforehand I would never have allowed her to make this decision. So I can understand the concept of personal responsibility.

Let's just be careful lumping everyone who indulges into one big category of "unresponsible" idiots.


Mic, would you loan this person the amount knowing her/his history?

[jspchief]

I can see both sides of the argument.

Certainly there is something to be said for knowing what you are signing.

But ultimately these types of businesses are bad for society imo. Should we have to regulate stupidity? Sadly the answer is sometimes yes. Some people truly don't understand the way these things work.

It's easy to sit back and say "screw 'em if they make dumb decisions". But there is little social or economic value in stomping on the heads of people that are trying to climb out of the hole of poverty or barely manage to stay ahead. Nor do I see much value in lining the pockets of the people that would take advantage of these people at every turn.

Just imagine if every business operated in a manner where the moment you let your guard down or something gets by you, you get hosed. I'd rather not have to worry about getting screwed by every a-hole that finds a new legal way to do it.

It may be legal, but it's socially corrupt.

[Bob Dole]

Bob Dole would add that many states DO have regulations regarding title loans.

[damaticous]

Haha, thread backfire.

There is regulation of contracts like this at common law. Its called unconscionability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability

I understand where you are coming from but, from the link you posted...


also known as Unconscientious dealings) is a term used in contract law to describe a defense against the enforcement of a contract based on the presence of terms unfair to one party. Typically, such a contract is held to be unenforceable because the consideration offered is lacking or is so obviously inadequate that to enforce the contract would be unfair to the party seeking to escape the contract.


Although the interest rate was really high she received the monies she asked for. Therefore the contract was not unfair to one party.

Was the loan she signed unfair, probably, but she is the one that signed it.

It's unfortunate that she had to resort to getting a title loan for whatever situation she was in, but she made the choice to walk-in and sign the contract.

I believe strongly in taking responsibility for your actions. I've been in tough financial situations, and yes, I've had to borrow money, but it has to be done responsibly.

Should these kinds of companies be allowed to exist? probably not, but there are people that accept these loans and it ends up helping them. So, IMHO it's really hard to say.

[phillip]

Although the interest rate was really high she received the monies she asked for. Therefore the contract was not unfair to one party. .

Receiving the monies she asked for does not make it fair. She received a few hundred dollars for a temporary amount of time, in exchange for a few thousand dollars. That is unfair consideration to me.

Was the loan she signed unfair, probably, but she is the one that signed it.

Well that's true of every unconscionable contract. Of course both parties signed.

I'm not saying this was a case of an unconscionable contract. I'm pointing out that the law does have remedies for this sort of thing.

You could certainly make an argument for it being unconscionable, though. She was under intense pressure according to MicJones. The title company may have known that. She had no bargaining power, and the terms are grossly unfair.

The other side of the argument is that they didn't come to her house and pressure her to sign anything. She came to them. And of course knowbody would make the loan to a financially desperate/troubled individual with poor credit without requiring an extremely high interest rate.

I think its arguable either way, but its not like our courts have completely ignored the problem of one party taking advantage of another in a contract situation.

[Saul Good]

Should these kinds of companies be allowed to exist? probably not, but there are people that accept these loans and it ends up helping them. So, IMHO it's really hard to say.

It's a service. The people who use this service do so because they have a history of borrowing money and not paying it back. These people made their bed, and they have to sleep in it. When these people really get desperate, say a life and death situation, a payday loan on terrible terms beats not being able to access money at all.

Deadbeats should be grateful that anyone will loan them money at all. It's like people with terrible health conditions who rail against insurance companies for having high rates. If the insurance companies are so evil, pay for your own medical bills and shut up.

Businesses exist to make a profit. If anyone thinks that these companies charge unfairly high rates, they should start up their own company that loans money to deadbeats at reasonable rates.

[kstater]

Check out the google ads on the bottom of the page. You can get 50% off payday loan fees. You should check it out.

[phillip]

Businesses exist to make a profit. If anyone thinks that these companies charge unfairly high rates, they should start up their own company that loans money to deadbeats at reasonable rates.

I think that's a great point. However, I also think there is something to be said for preventing businesses from making the highest attainable profit by squeezing every last dollar from people in desperate situations.

I agree that if you're going to make these kinds of loans, you're going to HAVE to give pretty damn high interest rates.

I think with title loans, the rates go a little past the point of "fair" profit, and enter the zone of "you screwed up and you need your heat back on, so I'm going to take you for everything your worth while I'm in a position to do so."

Whether or not it merits legislation, I can say I would never do it with a clean conscience.

[phillip]

Can anybody get a copy of one of these contracts? I'm curious now as to what the terms really look like.

[Micjones]

If I get a loan from the bank to buy a corvette, and after reading the details of the finance agreement, (Knowing that I probably can't make the payments) decide to put my car up as collateral, am I supposed to get pissed when they come, and collect both cars after I miss a few payments.

You're bound to the contract the moment you sign it.
But again, we're speaking to the legality of the agreement and not it's ethics.

And I will not address the ethics of such practices, because these kinds of predators are not going away.

Fair enough.

[Micjones]

I understand that you are using slavery to make a point regarding legality versus morality, but it's a pretty poor comparison and probably undermines your point due to the stark contrast of the situations.

Sir I could've made the point a hundred different ways.
I went on to explain that the law has never been a great measuring stick for what is just, fair, and equitable.

Somehow you missed that part and latched onto the former point.
Typical.

I'll restate the point.

What is "legal" isn't always a 1:1 with what is "ethical".
Make sense now?

I get that she is desperate, and that is why she made this poor decision, but I highly doubt that she has spent a lifetime making strong financial decisions leading up to this moment. I have compassion for her, as it's an awful situation, but it is one of her own making.

The perception that she must be an irresponsible steward of her personal finances solely because she fell on hard times isn't exactly fair or accurate.

[phillip]

The perception that she must be an irresponsible steward of her personal finances solely because she fell on hard times isn't exactly fair or accurate.

Maybe in this case, but you can't really legislate for the exception. I guess I'm sort of "on the fence" with this one.

[Simplex3]

...The entire subprime industry was targeted at people with no credit, immigrants, the poor and elderly. These people are not politically powerful enough to demand financial products that would provide protections for them while enabling them to obtain a home they could afford. Nope. The market and the products were not created for them or for that reason.

ROFL Give me a break. These people run the freaking show. All they have to do is cry a little and complain about how put upon they are and the government will just write them another check out of my account.

[Simplex3]

People who are stupid and people who lack common sense absolutely need state protection. Because everybody else preys on them and takes advantage of them every single chance they get. Greed is a helluva drug.

To not take advantage of stupid people is to deny them their only purpose.

:D

More to the point, however, how did those people get to be some freaking dumb about economics? Could it be our craptastic government education which is more centered around feeling good and passing moronic tests than it is about preparing people for life?

[kstater]

ROFL Give me a break. These people run the freaking show. All they have to do is cry a little and complain about how put upon they are and the government will just write them another check out of my account.

Care to provide an example where the government has hacked into your bank acount, forged your signature and written somebody a check?

[Simplex3]

Some people play the odds and come away from the experience unscathed.
I've done that with payday loans in the past. Guess I'm lucky.
I did learn my lesson though.

I think you tend to oversimplify though.
People aren't taking these risks to go shopping.
Often times this is the difference between paying a bill and your kids having to lay their head in a cold apartment for a month.

All it takes is desperation. This is hardly a matter of consumers being stupid.

If one little financial hiccup gets your heat turned off then you're living well above your means already.

[Micjones]

You use Republican as a pejorative here to insult him for believing in personal accountability...how mighty Liberal of you.

I'm a believer in personal AND social responsibility.
BOTH AND...not either or.

Walk into a jewelry store. They will sell you a tiny rock for several thousand dollars if you ask for one. I doubt that most would argue that we should shut down jewelry stores.

Horrible analogy.
Those "rocks" are called diamonds.
Fairly valuable last I checked.

Don't worry, though. Your friend will likely get bailed out with government assistance of one form or another.

Ah yes, the condescending parting shot and accompanying jab that she must be a handout-seeking vagabond sapping the government of their resources.

Why? Because it's become fashionable to be insensitive to the plight of other human beings. You, sir, are a humanitarian of the finest order.

I salute you.

[Simplex3]

You're going to argue for the ethics of a loan that works out to 300%?
Really?

Though she was in such a bad spot she willingly took the risk to make ends meet in another area.

Sounds like they were there for her when she was in need.

[Micjones]

If one little financial hiccup gets your heat turned off then you're living well above your means already.

That was merely an example. But I'll humor you...
I can think of a number of singular hiccups that can derail the lives of working class people who live check-to-check. I'm not sure why that surprises you.

But certainly you've never had any financial difficulty that wasn't the direct result of you being irresponsible.

:rolleyes:

[JASONSAUTO]

Well... Aren't you a barrel full of baseless accusations?

She was making regular payments. They simply weren't enough to satisfy the outrageous demands of the contract.

But, carry on... I expect you to drone on about how the contract was perfectly legal (a point I conceded from the outset) without offering a response to why such unethical and predatory lending practices should go unchecked.
#1 IF she was actually making the MINIMUM regular payments set up by the contract then why was the car repossesed?
#2 who says these lending practices are "unethical"? you have conceded that this person needed this money correct? if the person cant go to a BANK or RELATIVES to borrow the money then what else are these lending institutions supposed to do to protect THEIR investments(the money loaned) do you think that most of these people pay this money back on time? NO. so if the lender cant get a certain %of his money back what would keep said lender in business? hence the 300% APR. that is what it akes to continue to make these loans AND still make money(which is the purpose of owning a business)

[Micjones]

And it is irresponsibility that leads to losses like this. Yes, she may have been getting money for an immediate need, but decisions made months or years previous can be the irresponsible behavior that leads to todays crisis.

Pull your head out.
Working class people can have their entire lives turned upside down by a singular incident that has nothing at all to do with their being irresponsible.

Do I deny that often times irresponsibility is the culprit? Absolutely not. I'd be foolish to do so. But to pretend that everyone who finds themselves in a precarious financial situation is irresponsible is myopic, ridiculous, and...well...poorly thought out.

It's an increasing sentiment in American society though.

Partly because our lives have changed in such a way that people no longer have to have an emotional connection with the "have nots".

[Simplex3]

Praying on the elderly who can't pay for their medicine should not be legal
some people may be stupid for taking out these loans
just make sure your home and autos are locked when that 300% interest payment is due

Old people used to die. They still do. It's just that the medical and pharmaceutical industries have convinced people today to give their savings to them instead of their kids.

[JASONSAUTO]

Pull your head out.
Working class people can have their entire lives turned upside down by a singular incident that has nothing at all to do with their being irresponsible.

Do I deny that often times irresponsibility is the culprit? Absolutely not. I'd be foolish to do so. But to pretend that everyone who finds themselves in a precarious financial situation is irresponsible is myopic, ridiculous, and...well...poorly thought out.

It's an increasing sentiment in American society though.

Partly because our lives have changed in such a way that people no longer have to have an emotional connection with the "have nots".
really? then were those working class people living above or at the edge of their means already?

[Micjones]

[/B]
#1 IF she was actually making the MINIMUM regular payments set up by the contract then why was the car repossesed?

I said already that the payments were likely less than what was spelled out in the contract. My point was simply that she had not entirely defaulted on the loan.

#2 who says these lending practices are "unethical"? you have conceded that this person needed this money correct? if the person cant go to a BANK or RELATIVES to borrow the money then what else are these lending institutions supposed to do to protect THEIR investments(the money loaned) do you think that most of these people pay this money back on time? NO. so if the lender cant get a certain %of his money back what would keep said lender in business? hence the 300% APR. that is what it akes to continue to make these loans AND still make money(which is the purpose of owning a business)

These lending practices are unethical and I'm far from the first person to have made this observation. In many states there is strict regulation that outlaws these ridiculous interest rates.

This isn't rocket science.

These contracts allow the creditor to keep more than what was owed to them by the borrower. You're really going to pose an argument that such a practice is ethical?

Come on.
:rolleyes:

[Saul Good]

I'm a believer in personal AND social responsibility.
BOTH AND...not either or.



Horrible analogy.
Those "rocks" are called diamonds.
Fairly valuable last I checked.



Ah yes, the condescending parting shot and accompanying jab that she must be a handout-seeking vagabond sapping the government of their resources.

Why? Because it's become fashionable to be insensitive to the plight of other human beings. You, sir, are a humanitarian of the finest order.

I salute you.

There is such a thing as social responsibility, and I'm not going to defend this type of company and say that I approve of what they do. I would not open such a business because I don't agree with what they do, but it's not like they are forcing anyone to do anything against their will. Most people who patronize these businesses have abdicated their social responsibility to make good on their previous debts. Therefore, they are at the mercy of these predators if they have a true emergency.

It's not a horrible analogy. Those rocks are valuable to some people because they have been arbitrarily assigned a value. To others, they are less valuable. In the situation of someone walking into a payday loan store, money now is much more valuable to that person than money in the future. It's just a matter of relative value.

I'm not accusing your friend of anything, and I'm not insensitive to her plight. I just think that a clear distinction should be made between someone who is purely a victim of circumstance and someone who has found herself in an unfortunate situation as a result of a culmination of bad financial decisions.

The parting shot was not directed at your friend. It was directed at our government's mentality that we need to bail everyone out of their own messes. That said, I would lay money that she either currently receives or will soon receive some sort of government handout. I'm not making a value judgment about that. I'm just making an observation.

[Micjones]

really? then were those working class people living above or at the edge of their means already?

Think critically.

I'm not talking about people who are seeking to pad their everyday lives with luxuries and splendor. I'm talking about hard-working people who have situations arise that significantly alter their ability to provide their very needs in life.

I know it's tough to imagine that there are people who have financial difficulty that are generally hard working and responsible, but an ounce of common sense would tel youl that they exist.

[Simplex3]

Mic, would you loan this person the amount knowing her/his history?

I don't loan money. I give people money. If they pay me back, great. If I don't have it to give, then I don't have it to loan.

[Simplex3]

...Should we have to regulate stupidity? Sadly the answer is sometimes yes. Some people truly don't understand the way these things work...

Government schools rock!

[Simplex3]

Receiving the monies she asked for does not make it fair. She received a few hundred dollars for a temporary amount of time, in exchange for a few thousand dollars. That is unfair consideration to me.

The lender took on a HUGE amount of risk in giving her that loan. She could have moved out of state, she could have sold the car, she could have trashed the car, any number of other things. With a huge amount of risk come a huge reward.

[Saul Good]

I think that's a great point. However, I also think there is something to be said for preventing businesses from making the highest attainable profit by squeezing every last dollar from people in desperate situations.


There is a mechanism in place to prevent businesses from doing this. It's called capitalism. The market sets these interest rates, not the businesses. If these companies charge 300%, but they could make a solid profit by charging 200%, someone else would start up a business charging 200%. The first business would either lower their rates or be driven out of business.

The truth is that the people who patronize these businesses often times don't pay back their debts. Throw an emergency into their lives, and they are even less likely to pay off their debts.

[JASONSAUTO]

I said already that the payments were likely less than what was spelled out in the contract. My point was simply that she had not entirely defaulted on the loan.
yes she obviously had or no repossesion

These lending practices are unethical and I'm far from the first person to have made this observation. In many states there is strict regulation that outlaws these ridiculous interest rates.

This isn't rocket science.

These contracts allow the creditor to keep more than what was owed to them by the borrower. You're really going to pose an argument that such a practice is ethical?

Come on.
:rolleyes:

you're right it isnt rocket science DONT GO TO A TITLE LOAN PLACE.
i also dont get your point about the creditor keeping more than owed by the borrower, elaborate please. every loan the lender makes more than borrowed.
what is unethical about it? YOUR FRIEND AGREED TO THE LOAN OF SOUND MIND AND BODY CORRECT? she didnt make the MINIMUM payments therefore she was in default. any loan i have would go the same way

[Simplex3]

Care to provide an example where the government has hacked into your bank acount, forged your signature and written somebody a check?

You assume that:

1) I pay my taxes for any reason other than the fact the government has an exclusive right to use force to get their way

2) my taxes don't come out of my checking account

Both assumptions are false.

[Micjones]

There is such a thing as social responsibility

:clap:

and I'm not going to defend this type of company and say that I approve of what they do. I would not open such a business because I don't agree with what they do, but it's not like they are forcing anyone to do anything against their will.

We stand in agreement.

It's not a horrible analogy. Those rocks are valuable to some people because they have been arbitrarily assigned a value.

The assignment of value is absolutely arbitrary, but it's not as though they have no value post-purchase. You might have an argument if the "rocks" being sold had no inherent value once they left the store.

I'm not accusing your friend of anything, and I'm not insensitive to her plight. I just think that a clear distinction should be made between someone who is purely a victim of circumstance and someone who has found herself in an unfortunate situation as a result of a culmination of bad financial decisions.

Do you honestly believe that there aren't families who find themselves in similar situations after nothing more than an unexpected illness or untimely car repair? Those situations don't require irresponsibility on the part of the individual.

That's my point.
These sweeping generalizations about the AVERAGE person in American society miss the mark.

It was directed at our government's mentality that we need to bail everyone out of their own messes.

I've never advocated such a point.
I DO NOT believe it is the government's express responsibility to bail people out of difficult financial situations.

Stricter regulation wouldn't exactly constitute a bailout though.
That would aid consumers on the front end.

[Saul Good]

Think critically.

I'm not talking about people who are seeking to pad their everyday lives with luxuries and splendor. I'm talking about hard-working people who have situations arise that significantly alter their ability to provide their very needs in life.

I know it's tough to imagine that there are people who have financial difficulty that are generally hard working and responsible, but an ounce of common sense would tel youl that they exist.

Nobody is denying that these situations exist, but you are arguing the exception and not the rule.

If you really feel this strongly about things, why don't you start up your own loan company that specializes in loaning money at reasonable rates to the downtrodden with bad credit histories who have just had an emergency in their lives?

[JASONSAUTO]

Think critically.

I'm not talking about people who are seeking to pad their everyday lives with luxuries and splendor. I'm talking about hard-working people who have situations arise that significantly alter their ability to provide their very needs in life.

I know it's tough to imagine that there are people who have financial difficulty that are generally hard working and responsible, but an ounce of common sense would tel youl that they exist.

this is fucking hilarious. I myself grew up in the heart of wyandotte county, my father supported my whole family (dad step mom 2 step sisters 1 brother me 1 sister) on 13$ an hour and we NEVER got any type os assiatance from the state. he NEVER once took a title loan out if we didnt have it we didnt do it. if it was cold we put on more clothes or covered up. DONT TELL ME TO THINK CRITICALLY. man up take some fucking responsibility

[phillip]

In the situation of someone walking into a payday loan store, money now is much more valuable to that person than money in the future. It's just a matter of relative value.

A distinction needs to be made here. The only reason money now is worth THIS EXTREME AMOUNT more to them than money in the very short future is because they are on the verge of foregoing basic human needs.

At that point, it is unethical for a tiltle loan company to take advantage of their powerful position and squeeze the borrower for every dollar imaginable.

These borrowers are huge risks and deserve high interest rates, but not the kind of rates only available when you are taking advantage of a human who needs food/shelter/heat.

Taking a car worth FAR more than the balance of the debt is extreme.

[JASONSAUTO]

Nobody is denying that these situations exist, but you are arguing the exception and not the rule.

If you really feel this strongly about things, why don't you start up your own loan company that specializes in loaning money at reasonable rates to the downtrodden with bad credit histories who have just had an emergency in their lives?

because everyone has a sob story and when they get the money i would say the 50-75% of the time they never pay 1 red cent back

[Simplex3]

That was merely an example. But I'll humor you...
I can think of a number of singular hiccups that can derail the lives of working class people who live check-to-check. I'm not sure why that surprises you.

But certainly you've never had any financial difficulty that wasn't the direct result of you being irresponsible.

:rolleyes:

If you're living check to check you're living above your means. I've had financial problems and every one of them was the direct result of decisions I made leading up to that point.

This is a serious question, and I'd like a serious answer. It isn't meant as a slam or a judgment, I'm looking for actual information.

Of the people you know who live check to check, are there any who meet at least four of the following:

1) Don't have cable TV.
2) Don't have a Wii, PS3, XBox, etc.
3) Don't have mobile phones.
4) Don't spend money on liquor.
5) Don't eat out at least once a week.
6) Don't have a dishwasher.
7) Do all their shopping at Goodwill or another thrift store.
8) Use coupons when they grocery shop.

[Micjones]

The lender took on a HUGE amount of risk in giving her that loan. She could have moved out of state, she could have sold the car, she could have trashed the car, any number of other things. With a huge amount of risk come a huge reward.

That's a relatively small risk.
The lender would have every right to pursue her had she defaulted in any of the ways you outlined in this post.

They stand to make off like bandits now that they've repossessed the car.
The car will likely be auctioned at 3 or 4 times what they initially loaned her.

[kstater]

You assume that:

1) I pay my taxes for any reason other than the fact the government has an exclusive right to use force to get their way

2) my taxes don't come out of my checking account

Both assumptions are false.

How come you weren't bitching as your money was being taken from you to spend $5billion/month in Iraq?

[JASONSAUTO]

A distinction needs to be made here. The only reason money now is worth THIS EXTREME AMOUNT more to them than money in the very short future is because they are on the verge of foregoing basic human needs.
At that point, it is unethical for a tiltle loan company to take advantage of their powerful position and squeeze the borrower for every dollar imaginable.

These borrowers are huge risks and deserve high interest rates, but not the kind of rates only available when you are taking advantage of a human who needs food/shelter/heat.

Taking a car worth FAR more than the balance of the debt is extreme.

in most cases this is bullshit.
putting that car up for collateral was stupid also no?

[Simplex3]

These contracts allow the creditor to keep more than what was owed to them by the borrower. You're really going to pose an argument that such a practice is ethical?

Really? In any collateralized loan if the borrower defaults they lose the entire collateral. If I stop making payments on my house the bank isn't going to just take a couple of bedrooms and the kitchen. They're going to take the house.

[Micjones]

This is a serious question, and I'd like a serious answer. It isn't meant as a slam or a judgment, I'm looking for actual information.

Of the people you know who live check to check, are there any who meet at least four of the following:

1) Don't have cable TV.
2) Don't have a Wii, PS3, XBox, etc.
3) Don't have mobile phones.
4) Don't spend money on liquor.
5) Don't eat out at least once a week.
6) Don't have a dishwasher.
7) Do all their shopping at Goodwill or another thrift store.
8) Use coupons when they grocery shop.

First off, I'd argue that a mobile phone is a bigger necessity than any of the other items. It simply doesn't belong on this list.

And yes, I know people living check-to-check that don't at all fit that mold.

[JASONSAUTO]

That's a relatively small risk.
The lender would have every right to pursue her had she defaulted in any of the ways you outlined in this post.

They stand to make off like bandits now that they've repossessed the car.
The car will likely be auctioned at 3 or 4 times what they initially loaned her.

not making the MINIMUM payments isnt reason for default IYO?
they also had to repo the car. takes time and money to do that, PLUS the will have to pay to get it auctioned.

[JASONSAUTO]

First off, I'd argue that a mobile phone is a bigger necessity than any of the other items. It simply doesn't belong on this list.

And yes, I know people living check-to-check that don't at all fit that mold.

ANY PHONE IS A LUXORY

[Micjones]

Really? In any collateralized loan if the borrower defaults they lose the entire collateral. If I stop making payments on my house the bank isn't going to just take a couple of bedrooms and the kitchen. They're going to take the house.

Is the loan amount commensurate with the value of the house?

[Micjones]

ANY PHONE IS A LUXORY

Tell that to people with children.

[Micjones]

not making the MINIMUM payments isnt reason for default IYO?

She absolutely defaulted according to the contract.
I'm not even arguing the point.

they also had to repo the car. takes time and money to do that, PLUS the will have to pay to get it auctioned.

Come on JA. You don't think they'll profit when all is said and done?

[Micjones]

How come you weren't bitching as your money was being taken from you to spend $5billion/month in Iraq?

Uh oh...
You might've said too much.
:D

[JASONSAUTO]

this is fucking hilarious. I myself grew up in the heart of wyandotte county, my father supported my whole family (dad step mom 2 step sisters 1 brother me 1 sister) on 13$ an hour and we NEVER got any type os assiatance from the state. he NEVER once took a title loan out if we didnt have it we didnt do it. if it was cold we put on more clothes or covered up. DONT TELL ME TO THINK CRITICALLY. man up take some fucking responsibility

Tell that to people with children.

read this fucking post we went without a phone many times when we couldnt afford it, not cell phones NO PHONE. why is a phone so important? it's not a basic necessity. does this person live in the metro area? if so there are pay phones all over for the necessary calls

[Simplex3]

That's a relatively small risk.
The lender would have every right to pursue her had she defaulted in any of the ways you outlined in this post.

They stand to make off like bandits now that they've repossessed the car.
The car will likely be auctioned at 3 or 4 times what they initially loaned her.

I have a great interest rate on my mortgage and will pay three or four times the value of my house by the time I have it paid off. What's your point?

[Micjones]

Nobody is denying that these situations exist, but you are arguing the exception and not the rule.

I don't deny that.

If you really feel this strongly about things, why don't you start up your own loan company that specializes in loaning money at reasonable rates to the downtrodden with bad credit histories who have just had an emergency in their lives?

I have no interest in owning such a company.
Music is my first love.

[JASONSAUTO]

She absolutely defaulted according to the contract.
I'm not even arguing the point.



Come on JA. You don't think they'll profit when all is said and done?

yes they will profit, isnt that waht they are in business for?

[banyon]

Jesus kicked the moneylenders out of the temple, and usury used to be universally reviled as unethical, that's why states have those laws, in many places still on the books.

But there's been a generation and a half of lobbying and free market brainwashing so that these laws have been eviscerated and made toothless, and people think it's swell now if you couldn't decipher the 15th page of small print triplicate in legal jargon --"WHY DIDN'T YOU READ THE CONTRACT!"

Predatory Lenders like this have lobbied for these loopholes because they know there's a segment there to exploit.

[Micjones]

read this fucking post we went without a phone many times when we couldnt afford it, not cell phones NO PHONE. why is a phone so important? it's not a basic necessity. does this person live in the metro area? if so there are pay phones all over for the necessary calls

Don't get high-and-mighty.
You CHOSE to go without a phone.

And you used the word "we" to describe who made that decision.
I take from that that you're married, yes?

She's a single mother.

[JASONSAUTO]

Is the loan amount commensurate with the value of the house?

doesnt matter? all that matters is that you put up collateral and defaulted therefore you lose said collateral

[Micjones]

Jesus kicked the moneylenders out of the temple, and usury used to be universally reviled as unethical, that's why states have those laws, in many places still on the books.

But there's been a generation and a half of lobbying and free market brainwashing so that these laws have been eviscerated and made toothless, and people think it's swell now if you couldn't decipher the 15th page of small print triplicate in legal jargon --"WHY DIDN'T YOU READ THE CONTRACT!"

Predatory Lenders like this have lobbied for these loopholes because they know there's a segment there to exploit.

:clap:

[Simplex3]

How come you weren't bitching as your money was being taken from you to spend $5billion/month in Iraq?

I've been bitching about government spending since I had my first job at 13. If I were king of the U.S.A every member of our military would be back inside our borders within a month of me taking office. There would be just enough military to defend our borders from sudden attack, our primary defense would be an armed militia.

[Micjones]

doesnt matter? all that matters is that you put up collateral and defaulted therefore you lose said collateral

Not so fast.
You know this makes all the difference.

[Simplex3]

First off, I'd argue that a mobile phone is a bigger necessity than any of the other items. It simply doesn't belong on this list.

And yes, I know people living check-to-check that don't at all fit that mold.

I have known a couple too. They were way in the minority though, don't you agree?

[Saul Good]

:clap:



We stand in agreement.



The assignment of value is absolutely arbitrary, but it's not as though they have no value post-purchase. You might have an argument if the "rocks" being sold had no inherent value once they left the store.



Do you honestly believe that there aren't families who find themselves in similar situations after nothing more than an unexpected illness or untimely car repair? Those situations don't require irresponsibility on the part of the individual.

That's my point.
These sweeping generalizations about the AVERAGE person in American society miss the mark.



I've never advocated such a point.
I DO NOT believe it is the government's express responsibility to bail people out of difficult financial situations.

Stricter regulation wouldn't exactly constitute a bailout though.
That would aid consumers on the front end.

I never said that you advocated it. That's why the shot was directed at the government, not at you.

The sweeping generalizations do not miss the mark. They are dead on in the vast majority of scenarios. If the government would get the hell out of the way, the free market would regulate itself. Instead, the government does nothing but perpetuate the cycle. Here's the typical scenario:

A young adult decides to go out into the world and borrow money. Usually, it starts with a credit card. The banks are only too happy to give the young adult access to credit even though the borrower is a poor credit risk. Why is that? It's because the banks know that the parents generally bail their kids out after the kid racks up a bunch of charges that they can't afford to repay. Shame on the borrower, shame on the lender, and shame on the parents.

Eventually, the parent stops bailing out the kid, and the kid starts missing payments. The credit rating plunges, and the person has a difficult time obtaining credit at traditional rates. The person continues to live beyond their means or at the absolute limit of their means, so no saving are accumulated. By this time, the person has progressed from credit cards to cars and a house. The home lender writes a sub-prime loan even though the borrower isn't credit worthy. The lender doesn't care because he packages the loans by the hundred and sells the notes. The finance company buying the notes doesn't care because they are making a great return as long as the lender pays. When the lenders inevitably stop paying in huge numbers, they know that the government will step in and bail them out.

Then an emergency happens and nobody will loan the person any money. The person goes to a predatory lender and agrees to an exorbinant rate of interest. It doesn't really matter what the rate was, though, because the borrower doesn't pay back the loan anyway. The borrower loses his car that was signed over as collateral, and he cries foul to anyone who will listen. This happens enough times, and people go back to the government for the solution even though the government rarely solves anything, and even when they do, they inevitably break more than they fix.

[Micjones]

yes they will profit, isnt that waht they are in business for?

Absolutely.

I just wanted to counter the idea that there is a huge risk involved...in this case. They lent her $800. She's more than paid that threefold already.

[JASONSAUTO]

this is fucking hilarious. I myself grew up in the heart of wyandotte county, my father supported my whole family (dad step mom 2 step sisters 1 brother me 1 sister) on 13$ an hour and we NEVER got any type os assiatance from the state. he NEVER once took a title loan out if we didnt have it we didnt do it. if it was cold we put on more clothes or covered up. DONT TELL ME TO THINK CRITICALLY. man up take some fucking responsibility

Don't get high-and-mighty.
You CHOSE to go without a phone.

And you used the word "we" to describe who made that decision.
I take from that that you're married, yes?

She's a single mother.

i'm married but once again read this post. i was a kid my stepmom was disabled it took YEARS to get her settlement. we didnt CHOOSE ANY FUCKING THING we couldnt afford a phone so we didnt have one PERIOD

[Micjones]

Shame on the borrower, shame on the lender

Works for me.

[Simplex3]

Is the loan amount commensurate with the value of the house?

In my case, yes. It wouldn't be if someone took a $50k loan and used their $100k house as collateral. They would still take the whole house.

[Simplex3]

Come on JA. You don't think they'll profit when all is said and done?

Of course they will. If they didn't then your friend would have been shit out of luck when she needed that money, right?

[Saul Good]

Really? In any collateralized loan if the borrower defaults they lose the entire collateral. If I stop making payments on my house the bank isn't going to just take a couple of bedrooms and the kitchen. They're going to take the house.

What nobody is catching here is the fact that the lender doesn't get to keep the proceeds if they exceed the amount needed to satisfy the terms of the loan.

If you owe $50,000 on your home and it gets foreclosed, the bank will sell the home. If it brings in $75,000, you get back the remaining $25,000 less the expenses associated with the foreclosure.

[Micjones]

i'm married but once again read this post. i was a kid my stepmom was disabled it took YEARS to get her settlement. we didnt CHOOSE ANY FUCKING THING we couldnt afford a phone so we didnt have one PERIOD

Again, the example you posed involved a two-parent home (quite a bit different). And I think you're being a bit disingenuous to suggest that you "know" exactly what your father did and didn't do to keep the ship afloat. At least as a kid.

It's quite a bit silly for a single mother not to have a phone of some kind.

[JASONSAUTO]

Absolutely.

I just wanted to counter the idea that there is a huge risk involved...in this case. They lent her $800. She's more than paid that threefold already.

how many people dont pay a cent then skip out with the car? yeah there's a huge risk huge reward business

[SHTSPRAYER]

Since Obama has been President, I haven't had to make a mortgage payment, a loan payment, or pay any of my utilities.

LIFE IS GREAT!!


Looky looky here!

[Micjones]

In my case, yes.

Thank you, no further questions.

It wouldn't be if someone took a $50k loan and used their $100k house as collateral. They would still take the whole house.

Even that would be much different than a $2000 loan that defaults and results in the creditor repossessing a vehicle worth six times that amount (ie, the previous example I cited with the Georgia man).

[JASONSAUTO]

Again, the example you posed involved a two-parent home (quite a bit different). And I think you're being a bit disingenuous to suggest that you "know" exactly what your father did and didn't do to keep the ship afloat. At least as a kid.

It's quite a bit silly for a single mother not to have a phone of some kind.

a 2 parent home where one is an invalid. i was 14 AND have talked with my father on many occasions about that time in OUR lives since. i know for sure our car was never taken. and i guarantee you that i "know" exactly what dad did to get us by. WITHOUT.

[Saul Good]

Jesus kicked the moneylenders out of the temple, and usury used to be universally reviled as unethical, that's why states have those laws, in many places still on the books.

But there's been a generation and a half of lobbying and free market brainwashing so that these laws have been eviscerated and made toothless, and people think it's swell now if you couldn't decipher the 15th page of small print triplicate in legal jargon --"WHY DIDN'T YOU READ THE CONTRACT!"

Predatory Lenders like this have lobbied for these loopholes because they know there's a segment there to exploit.

Great point. Nobody realizes that payday and car title loans are ripoffs when they sign the loans. These are financially responsible people who just get hoodwinked, right?

[banyon]

Great point. Nobody realizes that payday and car title loans are ripoffs when they sign the loans. These are financially responsible people who just get hoodwinked, right?

No, they're not. But that doesn't make it right to victimize them.

[Micjones]

how many people dont pay a cent then skip out with the car? yeah there's a huge risk huge reward business

They put a significant amount of effort into recovery in those situations.
Certainly there is loss associated with title lending.
But I would guess that they are able to mitigate those losses more often than not.

[JASONSAUTO]

They put a significant amount of effort into recovery in those situations.
Certainly there is loss associated with title lending.
But I would guess that they are able to mitigate those losses more often than not.

thats what keeps them in business.

[Simplex3]

What nobody is catching here is the fact that the lender doesn't get to keep the proceeds if they exceed the amount needed to satisfy the terms of the loan.

If you owe $50,000 on your home and it gets foreclosed, the bank will sell the home. If it brings in $75,000, you get back the remaining $25,000 less the expenses associated with the foreclosure.

I'm going to assume the title loan game doesn't work that way? I've only pointed and laughed at those places, I've never been in one.

[Micjones]

Great point. Nobody realizes that payday and car title loans are ripoffs when they sign the loans.

Sometimes they don't Saul. You know as much.
You make it sound like people walk into Quik Cash with legal counsel to interpret difficult-to-understand contractual agreements.

[Micjones]

I'm going to assume the title loan game doesn't work that way? I've only pointed and laughed at those places, I've never been in one.

They DEFINTELY don't work that way.

[Saul Good]

No, they're not. But that doesn't make it right to victimize them.

The alternative is to completely deny these people access to money entirely. If she really needed money that bad, she should have sold her car in the first place.

[Simplex3]

They DEFINTELY don't work that way.

Doesn't that just make the people who use them that much dumber?

[SHTSPRAYER]

I'd like to know how congress gets away with lending billions of dollars to banks, and passes the responsibility onto future taxpayers.

[Saul Good]

Sometimes they don't Saul. You know as much.
You make it sound like people walk into Quik Cash with legal counsel to interpret difficult-to-understand contractual agreements.

I think they understand how credit cards work, and they generally default on their credit card debts before they ever set foot in a title loan store. What's their excuse for that?

[JASONSAUTO]

Again, the example you posed involved a two-parent home (quite a bit different). And I think you're being a bit disingenuous to suggest that you "know" exactly what your father did and didn't do to keep the ship afloat. At least as a kid.

It's quite a bit silly for a single mother not to have a phone of some kind.

a 2 parent home where one is an invalid. i was 14 AND have talked with my father on many occasions about that time in OUR lives since. i know for sure our car was never taken. and i guarantee you that i "know" exactly what dad did to get us by. WITHOUT.
.

[Micjones]

a 2 parent home where one is an invalid. i was 14 AND have talked with my father on many occasions about that time in OUR lives since. i know for sure our car was never taken. and i guarantee you that i "know" exactly what dad did to get us by. WITHOUT.

Again, this is not a 1:1. She has small children.
And you grew up in a much different time.
There were no title loans back then.

I'd venture to guess that the advent of that type of lending came many years after you were already an adult.

Still... I commend your father for what he was able to accomplish as a, for all intents and purposes, single parent.

I know people who've overcome extraordinary odds in the wake of crippling circumstances. She is one of them. Remember... She's a single parent.

That's why I object to the way she's been characterized.
Much like you have with your father.

[banyon]

I think they understand how credit cards work, and they generally default on their credit card debts before they ever set foot in a title loan store. What's their excuse for that?

I've had some pretty serious legal training, and there are many things about how my credit cards work that I couldn't tell you, and I doubt there are many posters who can.

[Simplex3]

Twenty years ago I worked in a K-Mart. We had people who would put things on layaway, make half the payments, then never show up again, therefore never getting their money back and never getting the product. I'm assuming those people use payday loans and title loans.

One question: How the hell does anyone own their car outright and be so bad off that $800 is worth giving up their only asset?

[Micjones]

I think they understand how credit cards work, and they generally default on their credit card debts before they ever set foot in a title loan store. What's their excuse for that?

Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't.

I'm not suggesting that everyone who willingly takes these risks is doing so blindly, but I do think there ought to be regulation that keeps lenders in check.

[Simplex3]

I'd like to know how congress gets away with lending billions of dollars to banks, and passes the responsibility onto future taxpayers.

Simple: Future taxpayers can't vote.

[Saul Good]

I know people who've overcome extraordinary odds in the wake of crippling circumstances. She is one of them. Remember... She's a single parent.

That's why I object to the way she's been characterized.


Why is she a single parent?

How has she been characterized incorrectly. I haven't seen anyone take shots at her. I've only seen (and done so myself) people make the assumption that she probably has a history of failing to repay her debts. That doesn't make her a horrible person, but it means that she has been the one doing the victimizing, not the other way around.

[JASONSAUTO]

Again, this is not a 1:1. She has small children.
And you grew up in a much different time.
There were no title loans back then.

I'd venture to guess that the advent of that type of lending came many years after you were already an adult.

Still... I commend your father for what he was able to accomplish as a, for all intents and purposes, single parent.

I know people who've overcome extraordinary odds in the wake of crippling circumstances. She is one of them. Remember... She's a single parent.

That's why I object to the way she's been characterized.
Much like you have with your father.
in our neighborhood he COULD have taken out loans with much worse consequences. he didnt. and being a single parent doesnt excuse her for borrowing money on the one thing she actually owned and was a necessity her car

[Simplex3]

Again, this is not a 1:1. She has small children.
And you grew up in a much different time.
There were no title loans back then.

Debt to income ratios changed? Spending less than you made and saving money changed? What year did that happen, exactly?

[JASONSAUTO]

also i was the oldest at 14 the youngest was 4 so yeah there were small children in our house also

[Saul Good]

I've had some pretty serious legal training, and there are many things about how my credit cards work that I couldn't tell you, and I doubt there are many posters who can.

I bet you get the gist of it, though. Something tells me that you understand that you borrow money and have to pay back that amount plus a little more. Let's not play the game of pretending that these people were so confused by credit cards that they defaulted through no fault of their own. They just walked around with fists full of cash trying to get the credit card companies to take the money.

[Saul Good]

One question: How the hell does anyone own their car outright and be so bad off that $800 is worth giving up their only asset?

And why didn't she sell the damned car in the first place if she was desperate?

[Micjones]

One question: How the hell does anyone own their car outright and be so bad off that $800 is worth giving up their only asset?

There are literally thousands of people who could answer this question for you.

She never anticipated this outcome.
She was just 2 weeks from paying the loan out entirely.

[JASONSAUTO]

And why didn't she sell the damned car in the first place if she was desperate?

it probably wasnt even worth 800

[Micjones]

Debt to income ratios changed? Spending less than you made and saving money changed? What year did that happen, exactly?

I think I qualified "much different time". You just stopped reading.
It's okay. I forgive you. Run along and read the whole post now...

[Micjones]

Why is she a single parent?

I'll answer when you tell me how that's significant to our discussion.

How has she been characterized incorrectly. I haven't seen anyone take shots at her. I've only seen (and done so myself) people make the assumption that she probably has a history of failing to repay her debts. That doesn't make her a horrible person, but it means that she has been the one doing the victimizing, not the other way around.

She's been called stupid, irresponsible, and a handout-seeker.
None of the above are true.

[banyon]

I bet you get the gist of it, though. Something tells me that you understand that you borrow money and have to pay back that amount plus a little more. Let's not play the game of pretending that these people were so confused by credit cards that they defaulted through no fault of their own. They just walked around with fists full of cash trying to get the credit card companies to take the money.

Hell I think it's pretty easy to understand how a basic mortgage works too, but we had giant corporate banks that failed to understand the amount of risk they were taking on and went bust. But these desperate folks with rudimentary education and skills are supposed to be savvy about it?

Free market economics always assumes that both parties in a transaction have equal levels of knowledge and information about how the transaction will work. When there are situations where this isn't exactly true and there's a serious harm that could result is the perfect time for regulations. The regulations we had in place 30 years ago were fine. There was available credit and personal debt wasn't destroying the American Middle Class. Now, after the credit card lobbyists have done their work, the regulations are meaningless and the credit card companies have won and are all well off and the American Middle Class is in record levels of personal debt that don't resemble any financial situation in our history. Is it really just because all of those people are just so dumb, or is there something more going on? Only the purest absolutist free market propaganda tries to explain away this significant socioeconomic trend and shift as if it were the most natural event and all part and parcel of a pure even handed "ideal rational economic actor" psychology.

[JASONSAUTO]

I'll answer when you tell me how that's significant to our discussion.



She's been called stupid, irresponsible, and a handout-seeker.
None of the above are true.

stupid and irresponsible COULD be attached to her because she borrowed money for a vehicle that was worth more knowing that if she didnt pay she would be losing her vehicle for the 800$. handout seeker IMO doesnt apply here unless she's looking for US TO PAY

[Micjones]

in our neighborhood he COULD have taken out loans with much worse consequences. he didnt.

And again, that's admirable.

and being a single parent doesnt excuse her for borrowing money on the one thing she actually owned and was a necessity her car

What's the alternative Jason?
Sometimes you take a risk on the lesser of two evils.

[JASONSAUTO]

And again, that's admirable.



What's the alternative Jason?
Sometimes you take a risk on the lesser of two evils.

doing without PERIOD

[Micjones]

stupid and irresponsible COULD be attached to her because she borrowed money for a vehicle that was worth more knowing that if she didnt pay she would be losing her vehicle for the 800$. handout seeker IMO doesnt apply here unless she's looking for US TO PAY

If she had every intention of keeping up with the payments and avoiding the loan going into default that's quite a bit different.

[Simplex3]

Sometimes you take a risk on the lesser of two evils.

What's the complaint if she went with the lesser of two evils? I must be missing something (other than compassion).

[Micjones]

doing without PERIOD

There are certain things you can do without.
To expect a single mother to do without heat in an unforgiving winter with a 9-month old child is...well...idiotic. To expect a single mother not to pay rent or feed her children is just as silly.

But she has learned to do without.
She's WITHOUT her car.

[Demonpenz]

you should probably go ahead and tell her not to send in her gold for cash

[Simplex3]

doing without PERIOD

Dude, nobody can do without a mobile phone with a texting plan, a six pack of beer, smokes, cable TV, name brand foods, pre-packaged foods, and a flatscreen. Can't be done.

[Saul Good]

I'll answer when you tell me how that's significant to our discussion.



She's been called stupid, irresponsible, and a handout-seeker.
None of the above are true.

I don't know how it's relevent until I know the answer. If she was married to the father and he got hit by a car, lingered for several months, racked up medical bills, ruined their credit, and eventually died leaving her with debt and hungry mouths to feed only to find out that their life insurance company went insolvent, that would be one thing.

If she had a one night stand with Derrick Thomas, that's another thing entirely.

If you don't want to add information to the discussion, that's your prerogative, but people will just fill in the gaps themselves with assumptions that may or may not be correct.



Can you show me a quote where someone called her stupid or said that she was seeking a handout.

[JASONSAUTO]

There are certain things you can do without.
To expect a single mother to do without heat in an unforgiving winter with a 9-month old child is...well...idiotic. To expect a single mother not to pay rent or feed her children is just as silly.

But she has learned to do without.
She's WITHOUT her car.

NO utitity company will shut off the utility needed for HEAT in the winter months. ask around get on food stamps, get some help, organizations WILL STEP IN AND HELP with aid especially in the winter months

[Simplex3]

There are certain things you can do without.
To expect a single mother to do without heat in an unforgiving winter with a 9-month old child is...well...idiotic. To expect a single mother not to pay rent or feed her children is just as silly.

But she has learned to do without.
She's WITHOUT her car.

http://www.bishopsullivan.org/

There is also this thing called "family".

[Micjones]

What's the complaint if she went with the lesser of two evils? I must be missing something (other than compassion).

Compassion is a bad word anymore in American society.
Our culture has hardened in the worst ways.
We're not as humane as we once were.
I'm fine with that. It's a sign of the times.

It's hurting ALL of us though. Because that same sentiment is what leads to gratuitous violence, abuses of governmental power, etc. etc.

I'm still puzzled as to why you think there should be no regulation of such lending practices though.

[Saul Good]

Sometimes you take a risk on the lesser of two evils.

You still haven't said why she didn't sell the car.

[Micjones]

NO utitity company will shut off the utility needed for HEAT in the winter months. ask around get on food stamps, get some help, organizations WILL STEP IN AND HELP with aid especially in the winter months

That's just one example.
There are other things she absolutely cannot do without.

[Micjones]

You still haven't said why she didn't sell the car.

I'm guessing because I expected you to understand that it's a vital part of what she needs to survive and provide for her family.

Sorry...

[JASONSAUTO]

Compassion is a bad word anymore in American society.
Our culture has hardened in the worst ways.
We're not as humane as we once were.
I'm fine with that. It's a sign of the times.

It's hurting ALL of us though. Because that same sentiment is what leads to gratuitous violence, abuses of governmental power, etc. etc.

I'm still puzzled as to why you think there should be no regulation of such lending practices though.

because the govt CANT regulate everything sometimes people need to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY and take care of themselves

[JASONSAUTO]

That's just one example.
There are other things she absolutely cannot do without.

what? i covered food rent heat, AND if she hadnt lost the car she would have everything necessary in today's times

[Micjones]

because the govt CANT regulate everything sometimes people need to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY and take care of themselves

The government can absolutely regulate such lending practices.
There are already regulations on the books. They're just far too lenient with creditors.

[Saul Good]

Compassion is a bad word anymore in American society.
Our culture has hardened in the worst ways.
We're not as humane as we once were.
I'm fine with that. It's a sign of the times.


That's completely untrue. It's well documented that "Conservatives" are far more charitable on the whole than "Liberals." Conservatives just believe that the government shouldn't be in the charity business because their only means of funding their charitible contributions is through extorting the money from taxpayers.

The Liberals love to make pie in the sky type arguments, but they don't put their money where there mouths are. They would much rather force someone else to pay for the messes of others.

[JASONSAUTO]

there are organizations that will help if you ask and can show that you REALLY need it. churches for one

[Micjones]

what? i covered food rent heat, AND if she hadnt lost the car she would have everything necessary in today's times

Is there some provision in her lease that prohibits her landlord from evicting her if she can't produce the rent payment?

Is there some supermarket in town that provides free groceries if you can't afford to pay the store's prices?

Will KCP&L forego interrupting her service if she doesn't pay that bill in a timely fashion?

I'm sorry...

[JASONSAUTO]

The government can absolutely regulate such lending practices.
There are already regulations on the books. They're just far too lenient with creditors.

my original point was that people need to take responsibility for their actions. one other way is to not have kids if you cant afford to support them

[Micjones]

It's well documented that "Conservatives" are far more charitable on the whole than "Liberals."

Absolutely. Charitable to those who don't stand in need of charity.

[Saul Good]

I'm guessing because I expected you to understand that it's a vital part of what she needs to survive and provide for her family.

Sorry...

That's the only car on the planet? You are rationalizing her poor choices. You can sympathize with her plight without justifying her decisions.

From what I have gathered, her car was worth at least a few thousand dollars. She could have sold the car and bought a total clunker for $1000 that would get her through the winter.

If she lives in an area with title loans, I'm guessing that she also lives near a bus stop. Worst case scenario, she could have taken the bus for a few weeks.

[JASONSAUTO]

Is there some provision in her lease that prohibits her landlord from evicting her if she can't produce the rent payment? no but there are places that will help with that
Is there some supermarket in town that provides free groceries if you can't afford to pay the store's prices? food stamps

Will KCP&L forego interrupting her service if she doesn't pay that bill in a timely fashion? in the winter yes

I'm sorry...yep your argument is
.

[Taco John]

Where in the world is the protection for borrowers?




Between their ears.

[banyon]

Is there some provision in her lease that prohibits her landlord from evicting her if she can't produce the rent payment?

Is there some supermarket in town that provides free groceries if you can't afford to pay the store's prices?

Will KCP&L forego interrupting her service if she doesn't pay that bill in a timely fashion?
I'm sorry...

On the last one, there is a rule that requires a certain number of days above a certain temp to shut it off (7 IIRC). But, of course, they don't stop piling up the bills, and in a winter like this one where you have wild swings from cold periods to mild ones, she's going to be SOL pretty soon.

[Micjones]

my original point was that people need to take responsibility for their actions. one other way is to not have kids if you cant afford to support them

She's doing a fine job of supporting her kids.
Without the support of their fathers.
Thank you though.

And I NEVER said that she shouldn't be responsible for her own actions.

[Saul Good]

Absolutely. Charitable to those who don't stand in need of charity.

You base this on what?

[Simplex3]

Compassion is a bad word anymore in American society.
Our culture has hardened in the worst ways.
We're not as humane as we once were.
I'm fine with that. It's a sign of the times.

It's hurting ALL of us though. Because that same sentiment is what leads to gratuitous violence, abuses of governmental power, etc. etc.

I'm still puzzled as to why you think there should be no regulation of such lending practices though.

If it were regulated she wouldn't have gotten her money. Then she would have been forced to deal with the greater evil, whatever that was.

[Saul Good]

She's doing a fine job of supporting her kids.
Without the support of their fathers.
Thank you though.

And I NEVER said that she shouldn't be responsible for her own actions.

...but with the support of the taxpayers, right?

[JASONSAUTO]

On the last one, there is a rule that requires a certain number of days above a certain temp to shut it off (7 IIRC). But, of course, they don't stop piling up the bills, and in a winter like this one where you have wild swings from cold periods to mild ones, she's going to be SOL pretty soon.

ask your local church a lot of times they will pitch in

[Saul Good]

fathers
.

Interesting

[Micjones]

From what I have gathered, her car was worth at least a few thousand dollars. She could have sold the car and bought a total clunker for $1000 that would get her through the winter.

And God knows reliability with your automobile isn't important.
Because clunkers always get up and go.
Oversimplification if I've ever heard one.

If she lives in an area with title loans, I'm guessing that she also lives near a bus stop. Worst case scenario, she could have taken the bus for a few weeks.

She works on the other side of the state line.
And unfortunately the transit system in Missouri and Kansas don't exactly complement one another.

[JASONSAUTO]

She's doing a fine job of supporting her kids.
Without the support of their fathers.
Thank you though.

And I NEVER said that she shouldn't be responsible for her own actions.

but if not for the kids she also wouldnt be in that situation correct?

[Micjones]

Interesting

Here we go.

Out with it. Out with the bullshit Saul. I know it's coming.

[Simplex3]

Is there some provision in her lease that prohibits her landlord from evicting her if she can't produce the rent payment?

Is there some supermarket in town that provides free groceries if you can't afford to pay the store's prices?

Will KCP&L forego interrupting her service if she doesn't pay that bill in a timely fashion?

I'm sorry...

It would take months for the landlord to get her evicted. There are lots of food pantries around town. And no, KCP&L wouldn't have shut off her heat in the middle of winter with a baby in the house. All of these would have required her to deal directly with the people she owed money to, however.

[Micjones]

but if not for the kids she also wouldnt be in that situation correct?

That's water under the bridge at this point Jason.
Me thinks it's too late at this point.

[JASONSAUTO]

And God knows reliability with your automobile isn't important.
Because clunkers always get up and go.
Oversimplification if I've ever heard one.



She works on the other side of the state line.
And unfortunately the transit system in Missouri and Kansas don't exactly complement one another.

so if she sold her car for 2500$ bought a car for 1000$ needed 800$ and the clunker broke down she could have fixed it with the extra money. now she has NO car to fix

[Micjones]

It would take months for the landlord to get her evicted.

Not necessarily.

There are lots of food pantries around town.

Do you watch the news...EVER?
Food pantries are struggling to even stay open right now.

[Micjones]

so if she sold her car for 2500$ bought a car for 1000$ needed 800$ and the clunker broke down she could have fixed it with the extra money. now she has NO car to fix

You're right. It's all cut and dry.
Because clunkers only have $700 dollar breakdowns.
:rolleyes:

It always goes according to plan.

[JASONSAUTO]

That's water under the bridge at this point Jason.
Me thinks it's too late at this point.

point was to make decisions and live with them take repsponsibility for your actions she took out the loan now she lost her car lets not make it the fault of the lender. it's HER FAULT and hers alone

[Simplex3]

Absolutely. Charitable to those who don't stand in need of charity.

I give sizable contributions to veteran's charities every year. I suppose they don't need it, though.

At least those men and women served their country. Makes them far more worthy than liberal charity cases who are multi-generational and pumping out babies.

Speaking of, why does this financially destitute friend have a 9 month old kid?

[Micjones]

...but with the support of the taxpayers, right?

Certainly you don't benefit in any way from other taxpayers' dollars.
:rolleyes:

[JASONSAUTO]

You're right. It's all cut and dry.
Because clunkers only have $700 dollar breakdowns.
:rolleyes:

It always goes according to plan.

well the getting a title loan went right according to plan HUH?

[Saul Good]

Not necessarily.



Do you watch the news...EVER?
Food pantries are struggling to even stay open right now.

Can you seriously not admit that she is in this mess because of her own bad decisions?

You have an excuse for everything that suits your side of the argument.

[JASONSAUTO]

I give sizable contributions to veteran's charities every year. I suppose they don't need it, though.

At least those men and women served their country. Makes them far more worthy than liberal charity cases who are multi-generational and pumping out babies.

Speaking of, why does this financially destitute friend have a 9 month old kid?

AND who paid for this child to be born

[Simplex3]

She's doing a fine job of supporting her kids.
Without the support of their fathers.
Thank you though.

And I NEVER said that she shouldn't be responsible for her own actions.

Jesus, she has multiple kids from multiple deadbeat fathers? And we're arguing over if she is or isn't responsible?

[Micjones]

At least those men and women served their country. Makes them far more worthy than liberal charity cases who are multi-generational and pumping out babies.

Because there aren't a million other ways to serve your country that don't involve wielding a semi-automatic weapon.

Are you really this simple?

Speaking of, why does this financially destitute friend have a 9 month old kid?

Don't assume that you know what her financial situation was like 18 months ago.

You have no way to substantiate that claim. You'd only be making a bigger fool of yourself than you are currently (if such is possible).

[banyon]

point was to make decisions and live with them take repsponsibility for your actions she took out the loan now she lost her car lets not make it the fault of the lender. it's HER FAULT and hers alone

Yeah, they made bad decisions and everyone else doesn't. F*** Em'.


:rolleyes:

[banyon]

ask your local church a lot of times they will pitch in

Should I announce it in the middle of the sermon?

How many heating bills do you think the church can afford if we scrapped LIHEAP?

[Simplex3]

That's water under the bridge at this point Jason.
Me thinks it's too late at this point.

Adoption. :shrug:

[Micjones]

Jesus, she has multiple kids from multiple deadbeat fathers? And we're arguing over if she is or isn't responsible?

Certainly you're a shining example of all that is right with humanity.
I mean... You've mastered the art of honoring someone else's humanity.
So you must be doing a bang-up job otherwise.

I'll take "Bullshit" for 500 Alex.

A woman hardly needs to be irresponsible to have a child with a man who won't own up to his fatherly duties.

[banyon]

Not necessarily.



Do you watch the news...EVER?
Food pantries are struggling to even stay open right now.

But there are so many charitable people! I don't understand! Free market magic is supposed to fix all of these problems if we ignore them.

[JASONSAUTO]

Yeah, they made bad decisions and everyone else doesn't. F*** Em'.


:rolleyes:

people who make these types of decisions should have to live with them

[Micjones]

Adoption. :shrug:

Good idea. Rip the children away from an otherwise happy home to suit your idea of her accepting personal responsibility for her actions.

Wow...

[Simplex3]

AND who paid for this child to be born

I already assumed we did.

[banyon]

people who make these types of decisions should have to live with them

Yeah, like I said. You had a kid, now it should have to live with your bad decision. No soup for you!

[JASONSAUTO]

Should I announce it in the middle of the sermon?

How many heating bills do you think the church can afford if we scrapped LIHEAP?

are you involved with a church? if so your church hasnt helped anyone out with bills? i would be shocked if the answer is no

[Simplex3]

Because there aren't a million other ways to serve your country that don't involve wielding a semi-automatic weapon.

Are you really this simple?

Please enlighten us all to the grand sacrifice this lady made to the greater good. I'm all ears.

[Micjones]

But there are so many charitable people! I don't understand! Free market magic is supposed to fix all of these problems if we ignore them.

You mean pantry shelves aren't overflowing with non-perishable items in a recessed economy?

"But the January issue of Time never said anything about that!"

[Micjones]

Please enlighten us all to the grand sacrifice this lady made to the greater good. I'm all ears.

To appease another human being who is every bit as fallible?

I'd like to know what that would accomplish?

Do you seriously think that service only involves donning a pair of fatigues?

[banyon]

are you involved with a church? if so your church hasnt helped anyone out with bills? i would be shocked if the answer is no

Do you have any kind of figures for how many heating bills were paid by churches in the last few years, or are you just spouting off and hoping that you're correct?

And I am involved with faith based community service, and it's pretty difficult to get people to give anything these days. Since you don't know this, I'd guess that you're not, or at least you don't know the reality of the current situation.

[JASONSAUTO]

Yeah, like I said. You had a kid, now it should have to live with your bad decision. No soup for you!

food stamps, cash assistance from the state it's out there

[Micjones]

are you involved with a church? if so your church hasnt helped anyone out with bills? i would be shocked if the answer is no

Churches don't have unlimited resources. And often time their rolls are far too big to provide the kind of financial backing certain communities need.

I mean seriously...

[JASONSAUTO]

Do you have any kind of figures for how many heating bills were paid by churches in the last few years, or are you just spouting off and hoping that you're correct?

no i do know how many times churches have paid for cars to be fixed for the less fortunate and some of those people have stated that the church was helping out with other bills, AND i had friends whose parents got that type of help as a kid

[Simplex3]

A woman hardly needs to be irresponsible to have a child with a man who won't own up to his fatherly duties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chastity_belt

First, she's having sex with men she either doesn't know very well or who she knows are deadbeats. Second, she's done this at least twice, meaning she didn't learn the first time.

The saddest part of this whole thing is the fact that, statistically speaking, her kids will wind up reliving her life when they're adults.