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View Full Version : Chiefs Who is the greatest "modern era" Chiefs - DT, PH or TG?


John_Wayne
02-01-2009, 12:14 AM
Since the Chiefs resurgence in 1989, who is the greatest Chief....... Derrick Thomas, Priest Holmes or Tony Gonzalez? Or, someone else?

I'd say Tony G., although Priest Holmes was the funnest to watch and DT has the greatest legend of the three.

Fruit Ninja
02-01-2009, 12:15 AM
I have to go with Tony G as well. DT was special, but so is Tony G, he's going to be the best ever. DT was just one of the best at their respective positions. Sucks that DT's career ended early, but i am giving this one to Tony G.

DaKCMan AP
02-01-2009, 12:16 AM
Priest, as great as he is/was, shouldn't even be in the discussion.

DeezNutz
02-01-2009, 12:17 AM
Priest, as great as he is/was, shouldn't even be in the discussion.

Nope. Not by a long shot.

Deberg_1990
02-01-2009, 12:18 AM
Not even close.

DT resurrected a franchise from the dead.

cdcox
02-01-2009, 12:19 AM
DT made the biggest difference between wins and losses, IMO.

DaneMcCloud
02-01-2009, 12:24 AM
Priest, as great as he is/was, shouldn't even be in the discussion.

THIS

JFC. :shake:

Fruit Ninja
02-01-2009, 12:25 AM
Priest was just really fun to watch. When he had the ball the patience he showed to hit the hole then how fast he actually hit the hole. Plus he was a shifty little bastard. He was a joy to watch no doubt.

dj56dt58
02-01-2009, 12:27 AM
If Priest did it for a decade with us, then he would belong here

CoMoChief
02-01-2009, 12:29 AM
Not even close.

DT resurrected a franchise from the dead.

So......thats not the point. TG is the best to EVER play at that position.

There are others that are better at DT's position.

FAX
02-01-2009, 12:34 AM
I think Priest was an amazing rusher. Simply amazing. Especially behind what was arguably one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. When he ran the stretch, it was poetry.

As for the TG and DT question ... I don't see how you can compare two guys who played in such completely different positions on the field. Both were/are fabulous athletes and heady footballers. But, I think if they had to switch positions, TG would perform better at linebacker than DT would at tight end. So ... TG.

FAX

blueballs
02-01-2009, 12:36 AM
Gonzo passed Sharpe in his 5 year wait
Gates could shatter Gonzo
unless he goes gimp

ChiefsCountry
02-01-2009, 12:38 AM
So......thats not the point. TG is the best to EVER play at that position.

There are others that are better at DT's position.

Rush OLB is more important than freaking TE.

Cormac
02-01-2009, 12:48 AM
TG gets my vote.

His legend grows with every year. His level of play, his character, commitment and leadership have stood the test of time and made him one of the greatest players of his era. I don't care how "important" the TE position is - he is a TE and he is top class - the undisputed best at his position.

This takes nothing away from DT. But he was surrounded by superior talent through much of his career, and his level of play dropped off badly in his last few seasons. RIP.

Priest doesn't belong in the debate. Having said that, he and T-Rich were a blast to watch.

Far more worthy of consideration is Will Shields, IMO.

FAX
02-01-2009, 12:57 AM
It appears that TG has the respect of a lot of Planeteers. I don't disagree that he should be considered our best "modern era" player.

But, it makes think about DT's five-year wait for induction into the hall. I wonder if TG will be a first-ballot guy or if his lack of a ring (assuming he won't have one when the time comes) will move him back on the bus?

FAX

Silock
02-01-2009, 12:59 AM
So......thats not the point. TG is the best to EVER play at that position.

There are others that are better at DT's position.

I agree with this.

KCrockaholic
02-01-2009, 01:04 AM
Although he may never win a playoff game. TG

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-01-2009, 01:46 AM
If you are talking about the best player relative to his peers, it's easily Gonzalez. If you are talking about the player that made the biggest difference between winning and losing it's Thomas.

ChiefsCountry
02-01-2009, 01:52 AM
The argument that TG is better than DT bc he is the best at his position, does that make Jan Stenerud the best freaking Chief ever then?

RustShack
02-01-2009, 02:02 AM
Why isn't LJ in this discussion?

Count Alex's Losses
02-01-2009, 02:03 AM
Why isn't LJ in this discussion?

As much as I hate to admit it, he doesn't even compare. He's had two good seasons.

Smed1065
02-01-2009, 02:04 AM
I will make it real!!!
DT or I think so....I said he should be and I was right for 5 years, fuk reality.

Smed1065
02-01-2009, 02:06 AM
As much as I hate to admit it, he doesn't even compare. He's had two good seasons.


But I will suck LJ because he said so.........U R a Pusy fat or not! IMM
U R an ass. Will neg all day!

Still fat azz!

Short Leash Hootie
02-01-2009, 03:31 AM
As much as I hate to admit it, he doesn't even compare. He's had two good seasons.

I'd say three...

The two 1700+ years...plus the last half of the year Priest and Blaylock got hurt...and he was pretty damn good in limited action this year...so I'd say three.

KcMizzou
02-01-2009, 03:33 AM
If you are talking about the best player relative to his peers, it's easily Gonzalez. If you are talking about the player that made the biggest difference between winning and losing it's Thomas.Totally agree.

(It's like saying "This." but more sincere.)

kysirsoze
02-01-2009, 03:54 AM
If you are talking about the best player relative to his peers, it's easily Gonzalez. If you are talking about the player that made the biggest difference between winning and losing it's Thomas.

pretty much sums it up.

kysirsoze
02-01-2009, 03:58 AM
It appears that TG has the respect of a lot of Planeteers. I don't disagree that he should be considered our best "modern era" player.

But, it makes think about DT's five-year wait for induction into the hall. I wonder if TG will be a first-ballot guy or if his lack of a ring (assuming he won't have one when the time comes) will move him back on the bus?
FAX

No way he isn't first ballot. Nobody cares if a TE hasn't won it all. If he was a QB he'd be fucked without a playoff victory.

Pluuuuuuus... who's to say he can't still pick up that ring?:shrug:;):grovel:

Darth CarlSatan
02-01-2009, 04:02 AM
I respect Tony more every season, but there's just no question about it; Derrick Thomas.
He was the modern player that opened the floodgates and put the asses back in the seats. To watch him have a great day on the field was pure happiness, excitement, and joy. He converted more casual football fans to die-hard Chiefs fans than any player before him, and his commitment to philanthropy set the benchmark for what is now( thankfully )common practice within this franchise.

When I have fans from other clubs and division rivals even come up to me when I'm wearing my 58 and tell me "I really miss watching him play", that tells me all I need to know regarding the answer to the question put forth in this thread.

Darth CarlSatan
02-01-2009, 04:12 AM
Rush OLB is more important than freaking TE.

Fuckin-A. We're the only club in the NFL that has put such a premium on that position in terms of game planning.

Yeah, we're using our weapons, but I totally get where you're coming from.

And when DT was gone, Chiefs defense left with him.

milkman
02-01-2009, 06:04 AM
Even if Tony were the greatest TE ever, the answer is still DT.

DT was a difference maker, a guy who the rest of the team followed and fed off of, who raised the level of play of those around him and made everyone better simply by showing up.

raypec85
02-01-2009, 07:27 AM
DT

Chief Faithful
02-01-2009, 07:38 AM
Only three deserve the Hall of Fame: DT, Will Shields, TG.

RippedmyFlesh
02-01-2009, 07:44 AM
DT
Admit it when DT was playing you were more excited to see the defense than the offense. How good of a player do you have to be to get people to think that way?

tmax63
02-01-2009, 07:54 AM
Gotta say DT. He had close to 50 FF although it was before they started keeping the stat. And it was also before every defensive player was consciously trying to strip the ball every play. He was a game-changer.
TG, Will Shields and I would add Willie Roaf are the next three that deserve to go to Canton.

Buehler445
02-01-2009, 08:23 AM
If you are talking about the best player relative to his peers, it's easily Gonzalez. If you are talking about the player that made the biggest difference between winning and losing it's Thomas.

This is by far the best answer.

But to be honest, they are (were) both unworldly athletes, we should be proud that they have worn exclusively Chiefs Red to date.

I would like to add to the discussion that people don't think that TG had an effect on the game, please remember that Tony Gonzales pretty much single handedly made Damon "wobble launcher" Huard a viable QB. So much so that he was considered for a starting QB spot. THAT is something. That entire season was garbage balls chucked up in hopes that Gonzo would come down with it. And he did. You could certainly argue that the Chiefs rode LJ and Gonzo to the playoffs. Bowe had almost 1,000 yards and the defense wasn't the worst in the league yet. But take out Gonzo, and how many 3rd downs were completed that year?

It's hard to identify a game changer on offense if it isn't Steve Smith, Larry Fitzgerald, or Chris Johnson. But I'd argue that Gonzo had more of an effect on team wins than some of you guys are giving him credit for. Still not on the same level of game changer as DT, but give the man some credit. He is one BAMF.

And as long as we're talking about long term guys that were great at their position, throw in Sheilds. But same as TG, you can't point to a specific play and say "that's the gamechanger"

But the real answer is "I agree with Hamas"

raypec85
02-01-2009, 08:24 AM
Only three deserve the Hall of Fame: DT, Will Shields, TG.

What about Albert Lewis?

theorangelion
02-01-2009, 08:27 AM
TG against other tight ends, DT was the biggest game changer.

milkman
02-01-2009, 08:32 AM
This is by far the best answer.

But to be honest, they are (were) both unworldly athletes, we should be proud that they have worn exclusively Chiefs Red to date.

I would like to add to the discussion that people don't think that TG had an effect on the game, please remember that Tony Gonzales pretty much single handedly made Damon "wobble launcher" Huard a viable QB. So much so that he was considered for a starting QB spot. THAT is something. That entire season was garbage balls chucked up in hopes that Gonzo would come down with it. And he did. You could certainly argue that the Chiefs rode LJ and Gonzo to the playoffs. Bowe had almost 1,000 yards and the defense wasn't the worst in the league yet. But take out Gonzo, and how many 3rd downs were completed that year?

It's hard to identify a game changer on offense if it isn't Steve Smith, Larry Fitzgerald, or Chris Johnson. But I'd argue that Gonzo had more of an effect on team wins than some of you guys are giving him credit for. Still not on the same level of game changer as DT, but give the man some credit. He is one BAMF.

And as long as we're talking about long term guys that were great at their position, throw in Sheilds. But same as TG, you can't point to a specific play and say "that's the gamechanger"

But the real answer is "I agree with Hamas"

I don't disagree with anything you are saying.

TG has definitely had an impact on the offense with his play on the field, but when I talk about a difference maker, I'm talking not only what he does, but how his presense affects the game.

Defnses have to account for TG, but for offenses, accounting for DT wasn't enough.

DT's energy and entusiasm permeated throughout the defense.

He brought the swagger back to KC's defense that hadn't been there in years.

TG has an impact on the game with his play.
DT had an impact simply by being on the field.

Luke the Drifter
02-01-2009, 08:37 AM
Tony Gonzales will make the Hof because of all the records he has broken. Priest Holmes an extraordinary talent the way he waited on his blockers was amazing, sad he had to play with those poor defenses. Derrick Thomas could change a game with one play. Deron Cherry is player I would have to consider over Albert Lewis though I like Albert too. Hey I'm just a homer what can I say.:)

Buehler445
02-01-2009, 08:52 AM
I don't disagree with anything you are saying.

TG has definitely had an impact on the offense with his play on the field, but when I talk about a difference maker, I'm talking not only what he does, but how his presense affects the game.

Defnses have to account for TG, but for offenses, accounting for DT wasn't enough.

DT's energy and entusiasm permeated throughout the defense.

He brought the swagger back to KC's defense that hadn't been there in years.

TG has an impact on the game with his play.
DT had an impact simply by being on the field.

Good thoughts. I see your point. Rep.

Tony Gonzales will make the Hof because of all the records he has broken. Priest Holmes an extraordinary talent the way he waited on his blockers was amazing, sad he had to play with those poor defenses. Derrick Thomas could change a game with one play. Deron Cherry is player I would have to consider over Albert Lewis though I like Albert too. Hey I'm just a homer what can I say.:)

Welcome to the Planet.

phillip
02-01-2009, 09:00 AM
Its WAAAAAY more fun to attend games when you have a good D. There was NOTHING like having season tickets and screaming your lungs out back when DT was playing.

Vermeil's teams with TG/PH were fun to watch on TV. But I wouldn't trade my season ticket holding years with DT for anything. Those were the most fun Sundays I can remember.

DT hands down.

DTLB58
02-01-2009, 09:55 AM
Priest, as great as he is/was, shouldn't even be in the discussion.

Agreed :clap:

DTLB58
02-01-2009, 10:00 AM
DT

Just for the simple fact that I think without him, The 90's Chiefs never would have been what they were. Arrowhead stadium never would have been what it was.

I heard broadcasters say still late this season, Kansas City is still one of the toughest places to play in the NFL. Well, we all know that's crap. But without DT it never would have been said in the first place.

If Yankee stadium was the house that Ruth built...You finished the rest :D

RedThat
02-01-2009, 10:01 AM
DT no question about it. He was simply amazing.

If you wanna talk about impact player, most valuable player I can definately say DT was both. Whereas Priest and Tony G are that too, but not at the level of DT.

He was the cornerstone of this franchise in the 90's. He was simply a relentless passrusher that change games. DT easily swung moment in his teams favor a lot of times, and elevated the play of the guys around him.

FLACHIEF58HOF
02-01-2009, 10:25 AM
I agree that the Priest was very exciting however, to be mentioned in the same sentence as TG or DT is just silly. Derrick Thomas was a game changer who stalked opposing QB's and generally made teams plan their offensive schemes around him. Tony Gonzales has done the same for opposing defenses. TG is the best TE in history to this point (records were ment to be broken) , and he will be a first ballot hall of famer.

I think had DT been able to finish his career, he most certainly would have also been in the HOF on his first try. So who is the greatest? I don't know, I'm just happy to have able to watch these 2 Hall of Famers play in Chiefs gear.

In honor of DT I am wearing my $200 #58 jersey that I bought 8 years ago for the first time. R.I.P DT, I will never forget you!

Sully
02-01-2009, 10:30 AM
DT. More of a difference in wins and losses. The biggest part of the resurrection of the franchise. More important position.
TG is the best to ever play TE, but a TE just doesn't change the game the way a rush backer does.

Saul Good
02-01-2009, 10:43 AM
This takes nothing away from DT. But he was surrounded by superior talent through much of his career, and his level of play dropped off badly in his last few seasons. RIP.


I heard this type of comment over and over during the last week when listening to sports talk, and it drove me nuts. Tony Gonzalez played with Priest Holmes, Will Shields and Willie Roaf. It could be argued that those 3 players were the most dominant players at their respective positions while with the Chiefs. 2 of them are likely Hall of Famers.

Derrick Thomas probably never took the field with a teammate who will wind up in the Hall. Guys like Neil Smith and Dale Carter were great players, but the only way they will find themselves in the Hall of Fame is if they buy a ticket.

Hog Farmer
02-01-2009, 10:44 AM
As great as DT was and I wish he wer'e still here. His last two seasons we're epic fail. I just won't ever get that Monday night game out of my head.

kcfanXIII
02-01-2009, 10:49 AM
something i was thinking about yesterday while we waited for the HOF announcements, what would happen if DT had to cover TG? could TG block DT? i think that would be a sweet match up to watch.

RJ
02-01-2009, 10:52 AM
Tough question, good thread.

There's a baseball site that uses a measure they call VORP - value over replacement player. In baseball, they factor in how many more runs that player produces than a replacement player might.

Using that measuring stick, I have to go with DT as the best of those three. The drop off in production to a backup TE or RB behind TG and Priest wasn't near the drop off from DT to a backup LB. No one else on the team and few in the NFL could do the things Derrick Thomas did in terms of changing a game. He was a very unique sort of player.

Hog Farmer
02-01-2009, 10:52 AM
something i was thinking about yesterday while we waited for the HOF announcements, what would happen if DT had to cover TG? could TG block DT? i think that would be a sweet match up to watch.

Thats just plain stupid !

StcChief
02-01-2009, 10:52 AM
Gonzo best TE ever.... passing everyone of THannon THarpe's numbers in 2 less years.

DT one of the best LB/pass rusher.

yeah DT game changer and brought the Chiefs back... Gonzo gets my vote

Saul Good
02-01-2009, 10:54 AM
Gonzo best TE ever.... passing everyone of THannon THarpe's numbers in 2 less years.

DT one of the best LB/pass rusher.

yeah DT game changer and brought the Chiefs back... Gonzo gets my vote

So would the best fullback ever get the nod over the second best QB ever?

kcfanXIII
02-01-2009, 10:56 AM
Thats just plain stupid !

i don't see why. i know thomas had an edge when it comes to a pass rush, and gonzo would probably have an advantage down field catching passes, but i think it would be cool to see the two go at each other for a game.

CoMoChief
02-01-2009, 10:57 AM
Rush OLB is more important than freaking TE.

Well so is runningback, does that make Priest Holmes better than Tony G?

I dont think so.....and position shouldnt matter anyway because that wasn't the question.

TonyG is the best outa the 3.

milkman
02-01-2009, 11:00 AM
something i was thinking about yesterday while we waited for the HOF announcements, what would happen if DT had to cover TG? could TG block DT? i think that would be a sweet match up to watch.

It would be a mismatch either way.

DT was not a cover backer, and Tony would not be able to block DT as a pass rusher.

milkman
02-01-2009, 11:01 AM
Well so is runningback, does that make Priest Holmes better than Tony G?

I dont think so.....and position shouldnt matter anyway because that wasn't the question.

TonyG is the best outa the 3.

Priest for four years was better than Tony.

kcfanXIII
02-01-2009, 11:05 AM
It would be a mismatch either way.

DT was not a cover backer, and Tony would not be able to block DT as a pass rusher.

thats why i think it would be fun to watch.

MahiMike
02-01-2009, 11:07 AM
TG - Trent Green!

phillip
02-01-2009, 11:19 AM
Tough question, good thread.

There's a baseball site that uses a measure they call VORP - value over replacement player. In baseball, they factor in how many more runs that player produces than a replacement player might.

Using that measuring stick, I have to go with DT as the best of those three. The drop off in production to a backup TE or RB behind TG and Priest wasn't near the drop off from DT to a backup LB. No one else on the team and few in the NFL could do the things Derrick Thomas did in terms of changing a game. He was a very unique sort of player.

That's a good way to think about it. It also shows what Allen was worth.

keg in kc
02-01-2009, 11:20 AM
I'd go with Gonzalez. Less impactful position than pass-rusher, but he's a more complete player and could end up with a 14- or 15-year career. Not to mention all of his all-time records.

milkman
02-01-2009, 11:22 AM
I'd go with Gonzalez. Less impactful position than pass-rusher, but he's a more complete player and could end up with a 14- or 15-year career. Not to mention all of his all-time records.

Let me ask you.

Who would you rather build a unit around?

KChiefs1
02-01-2009, 11:23 AM
TE's don't have as much value to a team in the NFL. Pass rushers are at a premium & the Chiefs had one of the greatest.

DT by a far margin.

keg in kc
02-01-2009, 11:33 AM
Let me ask you.

Who would you rather build a unit around?Any question like that is going to be balanced toward the pass rusher. There's a reason Thomas was drafted fourth and Gonzalez thirteenth, because tight end is a devalued position. That doesn't change the fact that I think Gonzalez is a greater player. That's not saying Thomas wasn't a great player in his own right, I just think that people will naturally migrate towards the athletes at flashier positions because their perceived value is greater. I see Gonzalez as a player who produced at an equally high level with (and I'd argue consistently higher level than) Thomas for a longer period of time. Hence I'd call him 'greatest'.

This is sort of like asking if you'd rather spend a night with Giselle Bundchen or Scarlett Johansson. You're forced to pick one, but it doesn't mean the other one's a bum.

Sully
02-01-2009, 11:36 AM
I love what TG hs done in KC.It's great that we've had him.

But the sad thing is, there is going to be an entire generation of Chiefs fans that, due to his career, severely overvalue the TE in a pro offense. So while we have to wean people off the CP-induced fear of developing a QB, we also will have to wean people off the idea that the drop-off from the best TE ever to an average TE, in terms of how the offense works, is marginal, at best.

milkman
02-01-2009, 11:38 AM
Any question like that is going to be balanced toward the pass rusher. There's a reason Thomas was drafted fourth and Gonzalez thirteenth, because tight end is a devalued position. That doesn't change the fact that I think Gonzalez is a greater player. That's not saying Thomas wasn't a great player in his own right, I just think that people will naturally migrate towards the athletes at flashier positions because their perceived value is greater. I see Gonzalez as a player who produced at an equally high level with (and I'd argue consistently higher level than) Thomas for a longer period of time. Hence I'd call him 'greatest'.

This is sort of like asking if you'd rather spend a night with Giselle Bundchen or Scarlett Johansson. You're forced to pick one, but it doesn't mean the other one's a bum.

But I think you do have to take the value of the position into account.

I also think you have to take the value of the player into account as well.

Like I said in an earlier post, what DT brought to the Chiefs simply by being on the field is greater, by far, than anything that Tony has ever brought to the Chiefs.

CoMoChief
02-01-2009, 11:41 AM
Lets put it this way......it won't take 6-7 years for Tony G to get in the hall like it did DT.

Tony G is a first ballot finalist even if he quit now, he may play 2 more seasons.

First year he's eligible, he's in.

Deberg_1990
02-01-2009, 11:43 AM
Lets put it this way......it won't take 6-7 years for Tony G to get in the hall like it did DT.

Tony G is a first ballot finalist even if he quit now, he may play 2 more seasons.

First year he's eligible, he's in.

YOu think so?

Sharpe didnt get in yesterday and hes won 3 Super Bowls.

milkman
02-01-2009, 11:45 AM
Lets put it this way......it won't take 6-7 years for Tony G to get in the hall like it did DT.

Tony G is a first ballot finalist even if he quit now, he may play 2 more seasons.

First year he's eligible, he's in.

So?

Joe Namath was a first ballot HoFer.

Fran Tarkenton, who I believe took 3 years to get in, was a much better QB.

CoMoChief
02-01-2009, 11:47 AM
If we're gonna disect this - might as well just make this whole argument 2 questions because its very simple to answer them both.

Who had the most impact on the Chiefs organization as a whole? Derrick Thomas, no doubt he brought the Chiefs back to an NFL competitor again and brought fans in the stands.

Who showed the most on the field? Tony G. Hes the best to ever play this position. This argument isn't about the value of position

CoMoChief
02-01-2009, 11:49 AM
YOu think so?

Sharpe didnt get in yesterday and hes won 3 Super Bowls.

Sharpe is an asshole. I'm pretty sure thats why he didn't get it. Besides I think people know he's the 2nd best TE ever :)

And it still AMAZES me how MIchael Irvin ever got in. Wow.

milkman
02-01-2009, 11:52 AM
If we're gonna disect this - might as well just make this whole argument 2 questions because its very simple to answer them both.

Who had the most impact on the Chiefs organization as a whole? Derrick Thomas, no doubt he brought the Chiefs back to an NFL competitor again and brought fans in the stands.

Who showed the most on the field? Tony G. Hes the best to ever play this position. This argument isn't about the value of position

No, it isn't about value.

The question is who is the greatest Chief of the Modern era?

And in spite of all the records for Tony, the player who had the greatest impact is DT.

To me, the player who had the greatest impact is unquestionably the greatest player.

RJ
02-01-2009, 11:57 AM
Lets put it this way......it won't take 6-7 years for Tony G to get in the hall like it did DT.

Tony G is a first ballot finalist even if he quit now, he may play 2 more seasons.

First year he's eligible, he's in.



Yeah, but I'd bet that opposing teams have never spent near the time preparing for TG as they did DT, and I'm sure opposing teams, given a choice, would rather have seen DT not be able to suit up than TG.

RedThat
02-01-2009, 12:00 PM
Im surprised Will Shields name hasn't been mentioned in this discussion.

TEX
02-01-2009, 12:03 PM
D.T.

Sully
02-01-2009, 12:03 PM
If we're gonna disect this - might as well just make this whole argument 2 questions because its very simple to answer them both.

Who had the most impact on the Chiefs organization as a whole? Derrick Thomas, no doubt he brought the Chiefs back to an NFL competitor again and brought fans in the stands.

Who showed the most on the field? Tony G. Hes the best to ever play this position. This argument isn't about the value of position

I'd go so far as to disagree with your answer to your second question.

keg in kc
02-01-2009, 12:04 PM
But I think you do have to take the value of the position into account.

I also think you have to take the value of the player into account as well.

Like I said in an earlier post, what DT brought to the Chiefs simply by being on the field is greater, by far, than anything that Tony has ever brought to the Chiefs.We'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't see it the way you do. I think Thomas was a one-dimensional player who benefited from the talent around him (which doesn't invalidate his stats or the fact he's a hall-of-famer; it's deserved - he was a game-changer), while Gonzalez is much more complete player who, unfortunately for him, was surrounded by some of the least-talented teams in franchise history, not just on his side of the ball, but in all facets of the game. He's not a hall of famer because of the stats in 2003-2005, years that were an aberration for Kansas City offense, he's a hall of famer because he had stats like that for his entire career, before Vermeil/Saunders and after. He's the best player on the field, blocking and receiving, whether we're running the WCO or an offense that doesn't supposedly doesn't fit his skill set in Saunders' or Gailey's wacky pistol with Thigpen chucking the ball.

I don't think people overvalue him at all because of the Vermeil/Saunders years. I think most of the fanbase to this day undervalues him because he's 'just a tight end'. I don't think most people get just how rare and special a player he really is. I didn't even come to this conclusion myself until late in the '07 season.

Hog Farmer
02-01-2009, 12:05 PM
Im surprised Will Shields name hasn't been mentioned in this discussion.


I'm not!

Rausch
02-01-2009, 12:23 PM
I'd say Shields, then Gonzo.

Not only was he a beast at G but when injuries came up he could play LT. He didn't do it often or anything but he did it and did it well. He was a great athlete.

Will, then Gonzo.

Honorable mentions to Hasty, Kimble, and TRich from the old days...

DaneMcCloud
02-01-2009, 12:25 PM
I'd say Shields, then Gonzo.

Not only was he a beast at G but when injuries came up he could play LT. He didn't do it often or anything but he did it and did it well. He was a great athlete.

Will, then Gonzo.

Honorable mentions to Hasty, Kimble, and TRich from the old days...

"Fumble" Anders?

ROFL

Rausch
02-01-2009, 12:26 PM
"Fumble" Anders?

ROFL

:spock:

He was the perfect FB when we ran the WCO and a great fill in runner. Team guy, great hands.

I don't remember him being much of a fumbler...

ChiefsCountry
02-01-2009, 12:48 PM
For as great as Tony is he isnt even a top 5 all time Chief IMO.

PastorMikH
02-01-2009, 01:01 PM
Of those three, DT is the best. I'm still a huge Priest fan, and had Priest played as much and long as DT, I might be able to say Priest would be the greatest. Both had similar ability to turn the game around, but DT did it for over 100 more games than Priest did.


I think Green isn't even in the top 3. I think a lot of Trent, but Trent was great within the system, when his blocking wasn't there, Trent wasn't either. There are numerous OL and Gonzo that could fall in that 3-5 range IMO.

PastorMikH
02-01-2009, 01:02 PM
For as great as Tony is he isnt even a top 5 all time Chief IMO.


All time, no. Since '89 possibly.

Saul Good
02-01-2009, 01:34 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't see it the way you do. I think Thomas was a one-dimensional player who benefited from the talent around him (which doesn't invalidate his stats or the fact he's a hall-of-famer; it's deserved - he was a game-changer), while Gonzalez is much more complete player who, unfortunately for him, was surrounded by some of the least-talented teams in franchise history
Where do you come up with this? Name one Hall of Famer that ever played a down with Derrick Thomas.

I can name at least two that played for years with Gonzalez.

KCChiefsFan88
02-01-2009, 02:01 PM
DT because of the fact his performance led to winning seasons, AFC West division titles and playoff berths.

ChiefsFanatic
02-01-2009, 03:38 PM
Since the Chiefs resurgence in 1989, who is the greatest Chief....... Derrick Thomas, Priest Holmes or Tony Gonzalez? Or, someone else?

I'd say Tony G., although Priest Holmes was the funnest to watch and DT has the greatest legend of the three.

I would say TG, but damn, you didn't even list WS. WTF?

jidar
02-01-2009, 03:53 PM
As much as I appreciate Priest Holmes I don't think he measures up to the other two.

Derrick Thomas was a truly great player and it's difficult to overstate just how good he was.

But Tony Gonzalez is the greatest Tight End to ever play the game. A sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer who has done nothing but dominate year in year out through various coaches, schemes and quarter backs. As good as DT is, he's not the greatest there has ever been at his position. Modern era hell, Tony Gonzalez right now is the greatest player to ever play with this franchise. Ever.

Darth CarlSatan
02-01-2009, 03:54 PM
Oi.

milkman
02-01-2009, 04:10 PM
As much as I appreciate Priest Holmes I don't think he measures up to the other two.

Derrick Thomas was a truly great player and it's difficult to overstate just how good he was.

But Tony Gonzalez is the greatest Tight End to ever play the game. A sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer who has done nothing but dominate year in year out through various coaches, schemes and quarter backs. As good as DT is, he's not the greatest there has ever been at his position. Modern era hell, Tony Gonzalez right now is the greatest player to ever play with this franchise. Ever.

Nope.

Skip Towne
02-01-2009, 04:13 PM
As much as I appreciate Priest Holmes I don't think he measures up to the other two.

Derrick Thomas was a truly great player and it's difficult to overstate just how good he was.

But Tony Gonzalez is the greatest Tight End to ever play the game. A sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer who has done nothing but dominate year in year out through various coaches, schemes and quarter backs. As good as DT is, he's not the greatest there has ever been at his position. Modern era hell, Tony Gonzalez right now is the greatest player to ever play with this franchise. Ever.

Better than 63?

mlyonsd
02-01-2009, 04:19 PM
Present day I'd say Shields and Gonzo are very close.

My favorite all time player though is Lanier. For those of you that didn't get to watch him play live I feel sorry for you.

Reaper16
02-01-2009, 05:04 PM
That's the trouble with "all-time" rankings. How is one supposed to compare, say, defensive talent from one era to another era?

Also, I'm having a hard time believing that the best player to ever line up at the TE position isn't one of the top 5 players in his franchise's history. Something about that doesn't jive in my brain.

eazyb81
02-01-2009, 05:07 PM
I'm sure it's already been said, but Priest Holmes is easily #3 on this list, and if we're including him we should also include Shields and Roaf, as they helped make his production possible.

Gonzo and DT is a great argument.

Gonzo is the best TE in NFL history, and DT was a game changer that was one of the best pass rushers ever.

Darth CarlSatan
02-01-2009, 05:07 PM
That's the trouble with "all-time" rankings. How is one supposed to compare, say, defensive talent from one era to another era?

Also, I'm having a hard time believing that the best player to ever line up at the TE position isn't one of the top 5 players in his franchise's history. Something about that doesn't jive in my brain.

Well, the topic says "modern era". How Bell, Lanier, and Taylor etc., factor in, I couldn't tell you.

Saul Good
02-01-2009, 05:15 PM
As much as I appreciate Priest Holmes I don't think he measures up to the other two.

Derrick Thomas was a truly great player and it's difficult to overstate just how good he was.

But Tony Gonzalez is the greatest Tight End to ever play the game. A sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer who has done nothing but dominate year in year out through various coaches, schemes and quarter backs. As good as DT is, he's not the greatest there has ever been at his position. Modern era hell, Tony Gonzalez right now is the greatest player to ever play with this franchise. Ever.
Derrick Thomas was the best pass rusher in the NFL for about an 8 year period. Tony Gonzalez has never been the best pass catcher in the NFL. He's probably never been in the top 10. It's easier to be the best ever at a less valuable position. Hell, Kendell Gammon should be in the mix if that's the standard. He's the best long snapper of all time.

FAX
02-01-2009, 08:33 PM
That's the trouble with "all-time" rankings. How is one supposed to compare, say, defensive talent from one era to another era? ...

Interesting question, Mr. Reaper16. I've actually ruminated on this question in the past. Then I cleaned myself up and thought about it some.

My personal opinion is that Bell, Lanier, and Lynch would knock the living daylights out of most NFL offenses regardless of the era. I would have to rank them as one of the top 2 or possibly 3 linebacking corps in the NFL's entire history. Due to my severely homeristic tendencies, I would rate them number one, of course.

Lynch, for example, was an awesomely talented linebacker whose abilities have been somewhat overlooked because of the unbelievable super magnificent awesomeness of the other two guys. When Jim Lynch is the worst backer on your team, you have one heck of a group.

FAX

John_Wayne
02-02-2009, 12:17 AM
Can a mod make this a poll? Or, is it too late for that? I should have done so when I posted this, but I was in a hurry. I just posted it, then left the house and haven't been home until now. Thanks!

|Zach|
02-02-2009, 01:31 AM
Present day I'd say Shields and Gonzo are very close.

My favorite all time player though is Lanier. For those of you that didn't get to watch him play live I feel sorry for you.

Yea, for me it is between those two. Leaning towards Shields.

RustShack
02-02-2009, 01:37 AM
LB>TE

Darth CarlSatan
02-02-2009, 01:55 AM
LB>TE

This.

jaa1025
02-02-2009, 07:32 AM
DT by far. TG, at his position, doesn't have the ability to change the outcome of a game. He can't put the offense on his back and carry the team to a win. He doesn't create the atmosphere at arrowhead like DT did. DT is the greatest defensive player or most impacting defensive player I've ever seen to date.

HE WAS THE REASON THE CHIEFS DEFENSE WAS AMAZING in the 90's and the defense was the reason they won 100 games. Even if they had an average offense we would have had a few Superbowl trophies.

PhillyChiefFan
02-02-2009, 08:37 AM
Derrick Thomas was the best pass rusher in the NFL for about an 8 year period. Tony Gonzalez has never been the best pass catcher in the NFL. He's probably never been in the top 10. It's easier to be the best ever at a less valuable position. Hell, Kendell Gammon should be in the mix if that's the standard. He's the best long snapper of all time.

I agree with you on DT being a dominate force at LB for years in the 90's, I loved watching him terroize QB's and RB's.

However, TG may not be the best pass catcher in the NFL, but there are few receivers/TE's, short of Larry Fitzgerald, that I would rather have a clutch pass thrown to than TG. In that manner he can be a game changer. He can catch anything, he can make a QB look good single-handedly, and rarely makes mistakes.

ChiTown
02-02-2009, 08:39 AM
I'll go with DT.

He is the only Chief, who was a game changer, and actually played on a Chiefs team that won a playoff game.