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View Full Version : Chiefs Interesting speculation: just suppose...


BostonTim
02-06-2009, 11:45 AM
...that Pioli trades for Cassel.

Pioli knows all there is to know about Cassel. He's by now seen all there is to see on Thigpen. His rep is that of being a great talent evaluator. Without going into details of the trade will KC fans be first inclined to trust or to distrust? Or how much weight would you put on the terms of the deal itself?

And while we're at it, gosh, I wonder what Whitlock would say. :drool::deevee:

Cheers, BostonTim

penguinz
02-06-2009, 11:48 AM
http://img.skitch.com/20090206-qmmp4umam4r1fbc2t696ije7f2.png

Bowser
02-06-2009, 11:49 AM
If we trade for Cassell, we better hope Moss and Welker come with him.

Mr. Laz
02-06-2009, 11:50 AM
it's possible

Sure-Oz
02-06-2009, 11:51 AM
I'll be so damn pissed off if we trade for him, he isn't worth 1 1st rounder, period.

Bowser
02-06-2009, 11:52 AM
I'll be so damn pissed off if we trade for him, he isn't worth 1 1st rounder, period.

We won't trade the number 3 overall pick for him.

blueballs
02-06-2009, 12:17 PM
Pioli could help his old team
by help starting a biding war
Jets, VIkings, possibly the Panthers, ect

Gdaddy
02-06-2009, 12:20 PM
If we trade for him it wouldnt be a first, would most likely be a second and possibly another based on performance.

DaKCMan AP
02-06-2009, 12:22 PM
All these people who get hot and heavy over Matt Cassel keep saying "Pioli knows him better than anyone" need to realize that such a statement means Pioli knows both Cassel's strengths AND WEAKNESSES. Pioli knows the good and the bad. Just because Pioli has a good read on Cassel doesn't mean he wants him.

Iowanian
02-06-2009, 12:23 PM
I'll wait to see if he stays between the lines when he pahks his cah in the cah pahk.

ChiefRon
02-06-2009, 12:25 PM
I'm really torn on this. If he pulls the trigger on a trade, I'll be disappointed because I'd really like to start fresh with Sanchez/Stafford.

But he's the bad-ass talent evaluator so I'd have to reserve judgement.

And if they paired that up with taking Crabtree, and we become explosive on offense a la Arizona, how could you argue that?

Micjones
02-06-2009, 12:25 PM
Guess who else knows his strengths and weaknesses?
That guy who's coaching out there in Denver.

JASONSAUTO
02-06-2009, 12:25 PM
If we trade for Cassell, we better hope Moss and Welker come with him.

yep cuz those are the only 2 receivers in the nfl worth anything:spock:

JASONSAUTO
02-06-2009, 12:26 PM
All these people who get hot and heavy over Matt Cassel keep saying "Pioli knows him better than anyone" need to realize that such a statement means Pioli knows both Cassel's strengths AND WEAKNESSES. Pioli knows the good and the bad. Just because Pioli has a good read on Cassel doesn't mean he wants him.

does it mean that he DOESNT want him tho?

Frankie
02-06-2009, 12:27 PM
I wouldn't wanna give up anything higher than a 3rd for Cassel. Or maybe a swith of 2nds. Or a fair combination of draft choices and LJ.

ChiefRon
02-06-2009, 12:27 PM
O, and 1 more thing that makes me nervous about trading for Cassel: Josh McDaniels. He coached Cassel since he came into the league, so he knows Cassel's weaknesses better than anybody.

1 more reason I'd rather us draft & develop a franchise QB...

The Bad Guy
02-06-2009, 12:28 PM
Think about this for one minute..

Matt Cassel was ALMOST cut last off-season. Yes, cut. He went from being a potential waiver guy to having a value of 2 first round picks.

He is not worth that kind of compensation. No how, no way. He's not bringing Randy Moss or Wes Welker with him. He's a decent QB, who got hot at the exact right time.

JASONSAUTO
02-06-2009, 12:30 PM
Think about this for one minute..

Matt Cassel was ALMOST cut last off-season. Yes, cut. He went from being a potential waiver guy to having a value of 2 first round picks.

He is not worth that kind of compensation. No how, no way. He's not bringing Randy Moss or Wes Welker with him. He's a decent QB, who got hot at the exact right time.

lots of players have been CUT some multiple times and gone on to become good some great players

Iowanian
02-06-2009, 12:30 PM
Half way through this season, people were making jokes about Cassell, his arm strength, decision making et al.

I'd prefer another direction personally.

If Pioli decides to do it, depending on the round traded, I might not care.

This doesn't however follow the typical way Pioli has done things in NE.

Matter of fact, I'll be very surprised to not see the Chiefs trade out of the 3rd pick if there isn't a "can't miss guy" there.

NE trades down very regularly and acquires multiple first round picks, sometimes the next season.

The Bad Guy
02-06-2009, 12:36 PM
lots of players have been CUT some multiple times and gone on to become good some great players

Yeah, and they didn't cost a first round pick, or a huge contract when they were cut either.

JASONSAUTO
02-06-2009, 12:38 PM
Yeah, and they didn't cost a first round pick, or a huge contract when they were cut either.

well the 1st rounder might be wrong but the contract...

CoMoChief
02-06-2009, 12:41 PM
If we trade for him it wouldnt be a first, would most likely be a second and possibly another based on performance.

Cassell is franchised, means we have to give up at least a first rd pick

JASONSAUTO
02-06-2009, 12:42 PM
Cassell is franchised, means we have to give up at least a first rd pick

no it doesnt

beach tribe
02-06-2009, 12:43 PM
Didn't even finish it......NO!

beach tribe
02-06-2009, 12:44 PM
:banghead::banghead:Cassell is franchised, means we have to give up at least a first rd pick
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::

DaWolf
02-06-2009, 12:45 PM
Cassell is franchised, means we have to give up at least a first rd pick

That is dependent on the team. If you sign a guy with no negotiation with the Pats, then you have to give them two first rounders. The Pats could, however, agree to a sign and trade for less than a first if negotiated with...

Micjones
02-06-2009, 12:46 PM
That is dependent on the team. If you sign a guy with no negotiation with the Pats, then you have to give them two first rounders. The Pats could, however, agree to a sign and trade for less than a first if negotiated with...

Thank you!

chiefscafan
02-06-2009, 12:52 PM
I think LJ and our 2nd or third for him isn't bad. Heck if Pioli can get something for LJ he is a God.

Mr. Flopnuts
02-06-2009, 12:56 PM
I'm starting to get the impression that Pats fans know if Pioli doesn't trade for Cassel, no one will. It's frightening isn't it?

philfree
02-06-2009, 01:03 PM
Half way through this season, people were making jokes about Cassell, his arm strength, decision making et al.

I'd prefer another direction personally.

If Pioli decides to do it, depending on the round traded, I might not care.

This doesn't however follow the typical way Pioli has done things in NE.

Matter of fact, I'll be very surprised to not see the Chiefs trade out of the 3rd pick if there isn't a "can't miss guy" there.

NE trades down very regularly and acquires multiple first round picks, sometimes the next season.


People make fun of everything so I don't think I'd let that influence my opinion. It's obvious that the Pats are just trying to maximize what they get for Cassell. I don't know that any team will give a 1st round pick let alone two for Cassell either. What I'd like to do is get Cassell for the right price and then go ahead and draft a QB. We'll have our QB for the present as well as our QBOTF. We also won't have to put an underclassman draft pick under center right off the bat.



PhilFree:arrow:

Christofire
02-06-2009, 01:04 PM
If we trade for Cassell, we better hope Moss and Welker come with him.

Bravo to this. The link below lists the percent of yardage a QB earned that came from YAC, and of Cassell's 3,693 yards, over 2,100 of it came from YAC. That's 57%, the highest percentage in the league.

Does he still have the potential to be a solid NFL QB over the long haul? Sure. But I'm still skeptical he's worth $14 mill and multiple draft picks.

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/01/air-yards-2008.html

Anon
02-06-2009, 01:13 PM
He should swing a deal for Derek Anderson too!

Iowanian
02-06-2009, 01:18 PM
In week 8, noone would have been talking about Cassell as a serious option for a trade of a 1st rounder.

BostonTim
02-06-2009, 01:19 PM
All these people who get hot and heavy over Matt Cassel keep saying "Pioli knows him better than anyone" need to realize that such a statement means Pioli knows both Cassel's strengths AND WEAKNESSES. Pioli knows the good and the bad. Just because Pioli has a good read on Cassel doesn't mean he wants him.
What else did you think I meant. Do you think I meant "Cassel is great just ask Pioli?" If so, why would you think that? For all I know Pioli doesn't want him at all. And, AMONG ALL the potential buyers in the MC Market, Pioli DOES know him better than anyone.

The question wasn't intended to be provocative. It's just a question.

Cheers, BostonTim

Anon
02-06-2009, 01:19 PM
I don't get why everyone thinks Cassell is the best fit, I don't think hes that good.

BostonTim
02-06-2009, 01:25 PM
I'm starting to get the impression that Pats fans know if Pioli doesn't trade for Cassel, no one will. It's frightening isn't it?I don't know any Pats fans who don't firmly believe there's a strong market for Cassel. Detroit and San Fran are clearly in the group and somme say as many as 5 or six more. I'm not being argumentative and I hope you are werong and I am right.

I don't know what they'll get for him but it will be something and it will be better thn just letting him walk as an FA.

I suspect many fans who haven't seen him play too much (as well as the millions of fans who hate the pats) are tending to mis-value Cassel for whatever reason. But we'll see, won't we.

Cheers, BostonTim

Pooch
02-06-2009, 01:25 PM
Pioli must not have thought much of Cassel as even a back up because he drafted a 3rd round QB last year!!

BostonTim
02-06-2009, 01:32 PM
Pioli must not have thought much of Cassel as even a back up because he drafted a 3rd round QB last year!!
I absolutely agree. This as a great point. But that happened before Matt stepped in and performed unexpectedly well for a full year, basically improving significantly every week, and finishing as about the 10th rated passer in teh league after not playing at all basically since HS 8 years ago. Pioli, like you and me and everyone else, has doubtlessly changed his evalution of Cassel significantly since last years draft.

Cheers, BostonTim

Wilson8
02-06-2009, 01:56 PM
Add these things up = Matt Cassel player evaluation + salary to sign + what Chiefs have to give up in trade.

If he can be a solid QB that can win championships, 48MM 6 year contract as opposed to 75MM 6 year contract for #3 QB drafted, and we give up something like 3rd round pick (no 1st round pick).

If those things are a positive then the answer is yes to Cassel.

I like the idea of being able to use that 1st round pick to help build the team at other positions.

blueballs
02-06-2009, 01:59 PM
IMO some are underestimating the Lions and Jets
or is that overestimating

Fat Elvis
02-06-2009, 02:29 PM
I absolutely agree. This as a great point. But that happened before Matt stepped in and performed unexpectedly well for a full year, basically improving significantly every week, and finishing as about the 10th rated passer in teh league after not playing at all basically since HS 8 years ago. Pioli, like you and me and everyone else, has doubtlessly changed his evalution of Cassel significantly since last years draft.

Cheers, BostonTim

And yet, you're still not going to be able to get the #3 pick for him....

RJ
02-06-2009, 02:45 PM
In week 8, noone would have been talking about Cassell as a serious option for a trade of a 1st rounder.



I still wouldn't.

Cassell had a decent season after struggling the first few games. If the Pats had a healthy backfield, he wouldn't have put up near the numbers he did. No way would I want the Cheifs to trade a #1 for him. The difference in production you would get from Thigpen to Cassell does not equal a first round pick.

bowener
02-06-2009, 02:59 PM
What if you flip this speculation to something else...

What if Pioli doesnt trade for Cassel?

Do other teams look at that as Pioli knowing the truth about Cassel, and that on a team with a roster full of turds at the QB position, Cassel still isnt worth trading for to Pioli, thus Cassel is not all he is cracked up to be...causing a Cassel collapse within the possible suitors club?

Just more speculation...

beach tribe
02-06-2009, 03:01 PM
I wouldn't wanna give up anything higher than a 3rd for Cassel. Or maybe a swith of 2nds. Or a fair combination of draft choices and LJ.

I don't think we should give up anything for Cassel.

1 pick. 1QB. 10 years.

ChiefRon
02-06-2009, 03:36 PM
Maybe the Lions will make this trade so we can debate the hell out Stafford vs. Sanchez for the next 3 months. :)

CrazyPhuD
02-06-2009, 03:42 PM
This only makes sense if we can trade him for an 8th.

BostonTim
02-06-2009, 03:45 PM
And yet, you're still not going to be able to get the #3 pick for him....
As I said, no one knows what he'll trade for. Certainy neither you nor I.

Lots are saying it won't be a first at all. Some are saying a first or more is likely. For example:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/02/national-football-post-diner-news-93/

Michael Lombardi review the possibilities and talks in specifics about the Lions, Vikings, Bucs, 49ers, Rams Bear, Jets, Chiefs who he sees as possible trade partners ( with the Skins and Panthers as longshots). he says this about ths Chiefs (who he ranks near the bottom of the possibilities)

KANSAS CITY CHIEFS — The Chiefs have all the elements in place to make a deal for Cassel: new offensive-minded coach, new GM (who gets along with the Patriots) and a very high pick. So why won’t it happen? Well, for one, the Chiefs are high on Tyler Thigpen, who played well at times last season. They also might not want to give up the third pick of the NFL draft for a player they may feel is not much better than the one currently on their roster. The Chiefs will hold on to their picks and will be reluctant to part with any of them. GM Scott Pioli knows Cassel as well as anyone and knows what he brings to the table and how he is different from Thigpen, who I’m sure he knows well by now. .

He sees the market (as do many) differently than many of you do. Me, I just don't pretend to know. I think BB wants this done ASAP, so he can get back his cap money and go o work. I don't think he'll be greedy. I think he just wants to get some decent value (whatever that is) and move on.

Cheers, BostonTim

KCChiefsMan
02-06-2009, 03:50 PM
the crackification of chiefs fans continues

Saccopoo
02-06-2009, 03:52 PM
The Chiefs are high on Thigpen. No shit. Like a tab of blotter dipped in PCP and sprinkled with crank high. Played well at times? Like the 17th pass attempt of the eleventh game and then the one bootleg in the twelfth game. Those are perhaps the times. And if the Chiefs think that Cassel is not much better than the one currently on their roster, they better not give up the friggin' third pick in the draft. They better not give up their seventh round pick for that.

Guru
02-06-2009, 03:54 PM
If we trade for him it wouldnt be a first, would most likely be a second and possibly another based on performance.He is franchised. It has to be a first.

Guru
02-06-2009, 03:55 PM
In week 8, noone would have been talking about Cassell as a serious option for a trade of a 1st rounder.and they still should not be.

ChiefRon
02-06-2009, 03:56 PM
He is franchised. It has to be a first.

No it doesn't.

BostonTim
02-06-2009, 04:07 PM
I still wouldn't.

If the Pats had a healthy backfield, he wouldn't have put up near the numbers he did. You may or may not be surprised by the actual numbers. We had injuries at all times to various RB's but we had great depth.

We ran as balanced an offense as I've ever seen here (and thats 49 years of devoted fandom), to wit: 534 passing attempts (12th overall in passing offense and 513 rushing attempts (6th in overall rushing offense) with 144 yards per game and a very solid 4.4 yds/att.

Cheers, BostonTim

CrazyPhuD
02-06-2009, 04:24 PM
He is franchised. It has to be a first.

LOL no....if we sign him first and they don't match then it has to be TWO firsts. If they trade his rights then they could trade him for whatever they want. Hell if they wanted to they could trade cassel for a bag of cheetos.

Mr. Laz
02-06-2009, 05:07 PM
i don't think we would trade for Cassel until after the draft

1. Pats don't want to move Cassel until after they see that Brady is ok

2. we will want to want until after Stafford does or does not fall


unless of course the Chiefs determine that all the QBs suck and they don't really want them .... but #1 still applies.

Mr. Laz
02-06-2009, 05:08 PM
He is franchised. It has to be a first.
no ...... most franchise players get traded based strickly on a negotiation that has nothing to do with the franchise tag

the franchise tag is just leverage

Frankie
02-06-2009, 05:17 PM
He is franchised. It has to be a first.

Does not have to be. What a team gives up to NE depends on trade negotiations.

Valiant
02-06-2009, 05:48 PM
Wow.. I just saw another NE homer on the another forum touting up Cassell as an allstar..

He wants to trade Cassell and NE's 2nd rounder for

Boldin and Arizona's 1st???? Says Kurt will retire if Boldin leaves so it is a great deal for both teams..

What is in the water over on the coast??

keg in kc
02-06-2009, 06:01 PM
If we're going to fantasize about trading for new england qb's, let's just skip the backup and go for brady.

keg in kc
02-06-2009, 06:04 PM
no ...... most franchise players get traded based strickly on a negotiation that has nothing to do with the franchise tag

the franchise tag is just leverageThis is true. The first round draft picks only come into play if a team signs Cassel to a free agent contract and the Patriots choose not to match.

Just Passin' By
02-06-2009, 06:06 PM
Wow.. I just saw another NE homer on the another forum touting up Cassell as an allstar..

He wants to trade Cassell and NE's 2nd rounder for

Boldin and Arizona's 1st???? Says Kurt will retire if Boldin leaves so it is a great deal for both teams..

What is in the water over on the coast??

Cassel's situation is so unique that people still don't really know how to value him. That's what's making things so interesting. He improved dramatically over the course of the season, so teams are going to have to look at him and try to figure out how much was him, and how much was the system and the schedule.

It will be interesting to see if Pioli makes a play for him, because the Patriots system is based on the QB having a first read, but looking based upon routes and coverages rather than players, and the Chiefs seem to have a system designed to get the ball to a specific player.

BostonTim
02-06-2009, 06:23 PM
Cassel's situation is so unique that people still don't really know how to value him. That's what's making things so interesting. He improved dramatically over the course of the season, so teams are going to have to look at him and try to figure out how much was him, and how much was the system and the schedule.

It will be interesting to see if Pioli makes a play for him, because the Patriots system is based on the QB having a first read, but looking based upon routes and coverages rather than players, and the Chiefs seem to have a system designed to get the ball to a specific player.Will Pioli (and the new coach) change that dranatically? I don't know. But... I imagine, its easier for a QB to adjust from a routes and coverages system to a specific player than vice versa.

Cheers, BostonTim

RJ
02-06-2009, 06:29 PM
You may or may not be surprised by the actual numbers. We had injuries at all times to various RB's but we had great depth.

We ran as balanced an offense as I've ever seen here (and thats 49 years of devoted fandom), to wit: 534 passing attempts (12th overall in passing offense and 513 rushing attempts (6th in overall rushing offense) with 144 yards per game and a very solid 4.4 yds/att.

Cheers, BostonTim



Oh, sure, look at Mr. Smartypants with all his fancy facts and statistics.

Well I have an opinion, and my opinion is that Cassell's numbers were skewed by the lack of a running game as a result of all the injuries which allows me to tell myself that trading for Cassell would be a bad idea.

Please don't disrupt my closedmindedness.

Just Passin' By
02-06-2009, 06:32 PM
Will Pioli (and the new coach) change that dranatically? I don't know. But... I imagine, its easier for a QB to adjust from a routes and coverages system to a specific player than vice versa.

Cheers, BostonTim

I don't think that's going to be decided by Pioli, because it's more about the Patriots' coaches, and they've already gone elsewhere. I think that it would have changed if Pioli had taken the job earlier and signed McDaniels as the coach. The Patriots have a lot of plays where they basically line up the receivers and send them out into patterns without there being a specific throw in mind. It's very complex, because the receiver has to read the defense and adjust to one of several routes, and the quarterback has to read that same defense and adjust to the same exact route. It seemed to take Cassel some time to get on the same page with his receivers on this, but he looked as if he'd gotten comfortable with it by the end of the season.

I'm not sure whether or not the Chiefs receivers are good enough at reading coverages for that to work though. They may be, but I don't know enough about them to say one way or the other, since I've never really read into the behind-the-scenes stuff about them. Some receivers, like Welker, can grasp it with no problems. Other receivers, like Chad Jackson, struggle with it and end up as kick/punt returners for other teams in the league.

keg in kc
02-06-2009, 06:32 PM
Well I have an opinion, and my opinion is that Cassell's numbers were skewed by the lack of a running game as a result of all the injuries which allows me to tell myself that trading for Cassell would be a bad idea. Like I've said before, I'd love to take Cassell, so long as he comes with moss, welker and their offensive line.

BostonTim
02-06-2009, 07:24 PM
Oh, sure, look at Mr. Smartypants with all his fancy facts and statistics.

Well I have an opinion, and my opinion is that Cassell's numbers were skewed by the lack of a running game as a result of all the injuries which allows me to tell myself that trading for Cassell would be a bad idea.

Please don't disrupt my closedmindedness.
:shake:I am SO sorry. I'm new here. I made a rookie mistake. I didn't mean to interfere with your opinion. Please continue and I'll try to remember to STFU.

:toast: Cheers, BostonTim

RJ
02-06-2009, 07:40 PM
:shake:I am SO sorry. I'm new here. I made a rookie mistake. I didn't mean to interfere with your opinion. Please continue and I'll try to remember to STFU.

:toast: Cheers, BostonTim



Thank you for respecting my baseless opinions.

They may not seem like much, but they're all I have and I intend to cling to them fiercely.