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View Full Version : #3 overall pick... a 20 year history


AustinChief
02-08-2009, 04:27 PM
08 Matt Ryan
07 Joe Thomas
06 Vince Young
05 Braylon Edwards
04 Larry Fitzgerald
03 Andre Johnson
02 Joey Harrington
01 Gerard Warren
00 Chris Samuels
99 Akili Smith
98 Andre Wadsworth
97 Shawn Springs
96 Simeon Rice
95 Steve McNair
94 Heath Shuler
93 Garrison Hearst
92 Sean Gilbert
91 Bruce Pickens
90 Cortez Kennedy
89 Barry Sanders


Draw your own conclusions. As for myself, if this list is a good indicator, I would go DT, DE, OT or WR... unfortunately we don't have a need that pressing at OT and the DE, DT WR prospects are iffy that high...

I am not in the anti-QB at all cost crowd.. I just really am not sold on THESE two QBs... esp. Stafford...

The Bad Guy
02-08-2009, 04:28 PM
12 out of 20 picks have been really good.

Marco Polo
02-08-2009, 04:52 PM
To be honest, this may be the first draft that I really don't have a preference on where we draft yet. Last year I was heavy on OL/DL and that happened. We have a lot of holes on our team so I just want the BPA period.

the Talking Can
02-08-2009, 04:54 PM
there are no conclusions to draw

it's just a list of picks....

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 05:02 PM
there are no conclusions to draw

it's just a list of picks....

the list = data - - - from said data... draw your conclusions...

DaneMcCloud
02-08-2009, 05:11 PM
Three Pro Bowls QB's, one average QB and two awful QB's.

That's a pretty good percentage with the third pick for 15 years.

Saul Good
02-08-2009, 05:11 PM
Interesting trend. From this list, we can expect our pick to be young, most likely male, and with some college education.

the Talking Can
02-08-2009, 05:14 PM
the list = data - - - from said data... draw your conclusions...

it is incapable of meaning anything other than "player x was drafted with the 3rd pick"....

not trying to be an ass, but you can't draw any conclusions about the relative merits of drafting a position with the 3rd pick from this...there is no causal relationship between the selection # and the player's success, when limited to a single draft position....

comparing a position to it's success ratio across all rounds of the draft gives you "data" that can be used to draw conclusions....this doesn't

not even sure why i care, so i'll leave you all to your conclusion drawing,,,,

Short Leash Hootie
02-08-2009, 05:19 PM
I think the Talking Can is a total douche bag.

That is all...

doomy3
02-08-2009, 05:25 PM
Three Pro Bowls QB's, one average QB and two awful QB's.

That's a pretty good percentage with the third pick for 15 years.

I would love to hear how you came to those conclusions...

Who was the average QB?

I guess you would also be happy with a "Pro Bowl" QB like Vince Young too?

And are you anointing Matt Ryan as a Pro Bowl QB?

DaneMcCloud
02-08-2009, 05:36 PM
I would love to hear how you came to those conclusions...

Who was the average QB?

I guess you would also be happy with a "Pro Bowl" QB like Vince Young too?

And are you anointing Matt Ryan as a Pro Bowl QB?

Harrington: Average.

McNair: Super Bowl QB, former MVP.

Matt Ryan: Rookie of the year, (short on Pro Bowl in year one).

Vince Young: Pro Bowl 2006.

And who the fuck cares anyway? It's just a spot. It's not like it's a "Jinxed" number to picking at or something ridiculous.

doomy3
02-08-2009, 05:37 PM
Harrington: Average.

McNair: Super Bowl QB, former MVP.

Matt Ryan: Rookie of the year, (short on Pro Bowl in year one).

Vince Young: Pro Bowl 2006.

So, I guess you would be happy with any of those players at #3 then. Is that what you're saying?

Ultra Peanut
02-08-2009, 05:49 PM
BUT MOMMY I'M SCAAAAAARED OF DRAFTING A QB

Mecca
02-08-2009, 05:53 PM
You know what conclusion I draw from that?

You don't take a OLB with the pick.

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 06:08 PM
You know what conclusion I draw from that?

You don't take a OLB with the pick.

see, there is a smart conclusion!

Talking Can... there is plenty of data here to draw a number of conclusions...


for example, you don't draft OLB, kicker, punter etc at this position...

milkman
02-08-2009, 06:15 PM
The conclusion I can draw from this is that people are scared shitless to draft a QB.

Mecca
02-08-2009, 06:17 PM
The conclusion I can draw from this is that people are scared shitless to draft a QB.

Pretty much, I think as the draft gets closer we'll see the serious fear start to come out.

DaneMcCloud
02-08-2009, 06:19 PM
So, I guess you would be happy with any of those players at #3 then. Is that what you're saying?

Thanks for speaking for me. :rolleyes:

I'm saying that four decent picks were made along with two epic busts at QB.

Clear enough for you, Doomy?

doomy3
02-08-2009, 06:19 PM
The conclusion I can draw from this is that people are scared shitless to draft a QB.



How do you draw that conclusion from those picks?

doomy3
02-08-2009, 06:21 PM
Thanks for speaking for me. :rolleyes:

I'm saying that four decent picks were made along with two epic busts at QB.

Clear enough for you, Doomy?

Yep, that's what I wanted to know.

I would imagine that out of those 6 picks, that only one or two of them would anyone consider a decent pick at #3. I don't know how anyone could consider Young, Harrington, Schuler or Smith anywhere near good enough for that slot. THey would all be busts.

And this may be the first time ever I have EVER heard Harrington referred to as an average NFL QB.

milkman
02-08-2009, 06:23 PM
How do you draw that conclusion from those picks?

It's being used to support the "I'm not sold on a QB" draft selection.

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 06:23 PM
The conclusion I can draw from this is that people are scared shitless to draft a QB.

Nice, can you step off your blanket statements for a sec and read what I wrote?

I am scared of THESE two QBs, I wanted Flacco and Henne last year. I am definitely not against drafting a QB... but junior QBs don't have a great track record... And if you look at the list, QBs at the #3 spot don't either... McNair is the one good QB out of 6.

To be honest I wasn't a big Matt Ryan fan last year, and he will probably work out well.. If it comes to Stafford or Sanchez.. I would take the one with higher upside (Sanchez) but as I said, neither excites me nor have they all season.

So, because I don't like those two players.. I am afraid of drafting a QB?

Mecca
02-08-2009, 06:24 PM
If you liked Chad Henne more than these 2 guys I'm going to honestly ask you what the hell you were looking at.

NickAthanFan
02-08-2009, 06:24 PM
You can't be a great team without a great QB. That's why we should pick Graham Harrell in the 7th round or so. LMAO

doomy3
02-08-2009, 06:25 PM
Nice, can you step off your blanket statements for a sec and read what I wrote?

I am scared of THESE two QBs, I wanted Flacco and Henne last year. I am definitely not against drafting a QB... but junior QBs don't have a great track record... And if you look at the list, QBs at the #3 spot don't either... McNair is the one good QB out of 6.

To be honest I wasn't a big Matt Ryan fan last year, and he will probably work out well.. If it comes to Stafford or Sanchez.. I would take the one with higher upside (Sanchez) but as I said, neither excites me nor have they all season.

So, because I don't like those two players.. I am afraid of drafting a QB?


Obviously.

Mecca
02-08-2009, 06:27 PM
I think it's funny that Austin liked the 2 QB's I didn't like at all.

milkman
02-08-2009, 06:29 PM
Nice, can you step off your blanket statements for a sec and read what I wrote?

I am scared of THESE two QBs, I wanted Flacco and Henne last year. I am definitely not against drafting a QB... but junior QBs don't have a great track record... And if you look at the list, QBs at the #3 spot don't either... McNair is the one good QB out of 6.

To be honest I wasn't a big Matt Ryan fan last year, and he will probably work out well.. If it comes to Stafford or Sanchez.. I would take the one with higher upside (Sanchez) but as I said, neither excites me nor have they all season.

So, because I don't like those two players.. I am afraid of drafting a QB?

You are right, it is a blanket statement.

However, if you look at that, one could conclude that if you don't simply throw a QB into the fire immediately, and give him some time to sit and learn, you could allow him to develop into an MVP calibre QB, since the only one of those QBs that really turned into anything was given time to develop.

But then Matt Ryan could debunk that theory.

The fact is, it really is impossible to draw any conclusions from this.

What has happened with QBs selected in the past has no bearing on how these guys will turn out.

doomy3
02-08-2009, 06:29 PM
I think it's funny that Austin liked the 2 QB's I didn't like at all.

I don't think it's that funny at all. There are a lot of people on this board. Of course there are going to be a lot of opinions.

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 06:29 PM
It's being used to support the "I'm not sold on a QB" draft selection.

Notice my statement THESE QBs, which you conveniently read as A QB.

And to respond to Mecca, I wanted Flacco a late 1st or Henne with a 2nd... I honestly feel that Sanchez is gonna either be a great pick or a bust at #3... I am leaning toward bust... but if we pick him I hope I am wrong. Stafford I can't stand... just never liked him.

but either way, they bear the curse of the junior QB... hard to overcome.

Again, if Sanchez stayed in school and had another great year and we sucked enough to be able to draft him I would have been elated... as it is, not so much.

DaneMcCloud
02-08-2009, 06:30 PM
Yep, that's what I wanted to know.

I would imagine that out of those 6 picks, that only one or two of them would anyone consider a decent pick at #3. I don't know how anyone could consider Young, Harrington, Schuler or Smith anywhere near good enough for that slot. THey would all be busts.

And this may be the first time ever I have EVER heard Harrington referred to as an average NFL QB.

Harrington is not a bust. He played for a shitty team for years. Actually, the worst team in the entire NFL. He's received poor coaching and bounced around but he's still playing and he's still under 30. There's certainly room for him to improve and find his way as an NFL QB. You could have put Rivers, Manning or Rothlisberger on that Lions teams and they would still suck.

I thought Vince Young was taken too high but the owner was enamored with his size, mobility and arm. Before his mental breakdown, he proved me wrong. I think it's way to early to label him a bust, unless he retires from football with mental issues.

Smith sucked. Major reach. Schuler was a joke but the Redskins at least made up with that selection by choosing Gus Ferrote in the 7th.

These comparisons have absolutely ZERO impact on the success or failure of Sanchez or Stafford so basically, this was an exercise in futility.

Mecca
02-08-2009, 06:30 PM
All I know is everytime I watched Chad Henne play I was thoroughly unimpressed.

And Flacco put up the red flags that I would put up on QB.

doomy3
02-08-2009, 06:33 PM
Harrington is not a bust. He played for a shitty team for years. Actually, the worst team in the entire NFL. He's received poor coaching and bounced around but he's still playing and he's still under 30. There's certainly room for him to improve and find his way as an NFL QB. You could have put Rivers, Manning or Rothlisberger on that Lions teams and they would still suck.

I thought Vince Young was taken too high but the owner was enamored with his size, mobility and arm. Before his mental breakdown, he proved me wrong. I think it's way to early to label him a bust, unless he retires from football with mental issues.

Smith sucked. Major reach. Schuler was a joke but the Redskins at least made up with that selection by choosing Gus Ferrote in the 7th.

These comparisons have absolutely ZERO impact on the success or failure of Sanchez or Stafford so basically, this was an exercise in futility.


I almost stopped reading there, because I cannot honestly believe you are being serious.

But I actually do agree with your last part.

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 06:33 PM
All I know is everytime I watched Chad Henne play I was thoroughly unimpressed.

And Flacco put up the red flags that I would put up on QB.

I think Flacco will bear me out and Henne may if he gets any serious playing time... I can't see Pennington staying ahead of him for more than one more year.

doomy3
02-08-2009, 06:34 PM
All I know is everytime I watched Chad Henne play I was thoroughly unimpressed.

And Flacco put up the red flags that I would put up on QB.



Honestly, who cares?

Bill Parcells obviously liked Henne and Newsome liked Flacco. Those are two of the best in the business, so I will trust their judgment over yours.

Mecca
02-08-2009, 06:35 PM
When a QB goes from 3rd round to 1st round during the combine because he starts showing off his arm he throws up a red flag to me..

I'll still go with that strategy more often that not you'll be right for avoiding them..the Ravens took 2 QB's like that one was a bust the other one looks alright after 1 year, but I also don't think he was as good as some made him out to be.

Mecca
02-08-2009, 06:36 PM
Honestly, who cares?

Bill Parcells obviously liked Henne and Newsome liked Flacco. Those are two of the best in the business, so I will trust their judgment over yours.

Yea Ozzie Newsome drafted Kyle Boller too......Baltimore for all of their nice draft picks has had a real hard time with offensive skill players.

And Parcells draft history is really mixed...Bobby Carpenter anyone?

doomy3
02-08-2009, 06:39 PM
When a QB goes from 3rd round to 1st round during the combine because he starts showing off his arm he throws up a red flag to me..

I'll still go with that strategy more often that not you'll be right for avoiding them..the Ravens took 2 QB's like that one was a bust the other one looks alright after 1 year, but I also don't think he was as good as some made him out to be.

This is why I think it's funny that people are ready to anoint Matt Ryan as great after one year.

Mecca
02-08-2009, 06:40 PM
This is why I think it's funny that people are ready to anoint Matt Ryan as great after one year.

Well I think Ryan was significantly better than Flacco this past season...

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 06:48 PM
and to be honest, this list was supposed to be about more than just ONE position at that pick....

Our team won't collapse if we don't pick a [insert pet position here] this year.

Mecca
02-08-2009, 06:50 PM
and to be honest, this list was supposed to be about more than just ONE position at that pick....

Our team won't collapse if we don't pick a [insert pet position here] this year.

Well this ties into my thread about next years draft, odds are this team will have a top 10 pick next year..

Well if we don't go QB this year who the hell is there next year at QB? I'm not seeing anything..

However I see 2 possible elite DE prospects and 2 of the best safety prospects ever.

DaneMcCloud
02-08-2009, 06:50 PM
I almost stopped reading there, because I cannot honestly believe you are being serious.

But I actually do agree with your last part.

Akili Smith was a bust.

Jim Druckenmiller was a bust.

Ryan Leaf was a bust.

Cade McNown was a bust.

Joey Harrington is still playing in the NFL and has won some games. He got completely screwed over in Detroit (who hasn't?).

I'm not going to say the guy is anything better than average but Sean Payton's got him on his roster so that definitely says a little bit about the guy.

The guy's got nearly 15,000 yards passing and a QB rating of 69.1 while playing on shitty fucking teams (Detroit, Miami & Atlanta).

DaneMcCloud
02-08-2009, 06:51 PM
This is why I think it's funny that people are ready to anoint Matt Ryan as great after one year.

Matt Ryan WAS great after one year.

How can you dispute that? Do you honestly believe that he will suddenly suck?

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 06:55 PM
Well this ties into my thread about next years draft, odds are this team will have a top 10 pick next year..

Well if we don't go QB this year who the hell is there next year at QB? I'm not seeing anything..

However I see 2 possible elite DE prospects and 2 of the best safety prospects ever.

I don't see anyone yet either... but that doesn't mean you reach this year. it means you suck it up and go BPA.

Can you name me ONE junior QB who didn't suck? And don't name Big Ben, #1 I don't think he is that good and #2 he was a 4 year junior with 38 starts....

Ebolapox
02-08-2009, 07:19 PM
If you liked Chad Henne more than these 2 guys I'm going to honestly ask you what the hell you were looking at.

kyle went to/graduated from michigan. does his henne love really shock you?

doomy3
02-08-2009, 07:20 PM
Matt Ryan WAS great after one year.

How can you dispute that? Do you honestly believe that he will suddenly suck?

No, I don't believe he will suck. But there are plenty of one year wonders that flame out.

Look no further than your Pro Bowl QB at the number 3 spot, Vince Young.

doomy3
02-08-2009, 07:23 PM
Akili Smith was a bust.

Jim Druckenmiller was a bust.

Ryan Leaf was a bust.

Cade McNown was a bust.

Joey Harrington is still playing in the NFL and has won some games. He got completely screwed over in Detroit (who hasn't?).

I'm not going to say the guy is anything better than average but Sean Payton's got him on his roster so that definitely says a little bit about the guy.

The guy's got nearly 15,000 yards passing and a QB rating of 69.1 while playing on shitty ****ing teams (Detroit, Miami & Atlanta).


He was a number 3 pick in the draft, and has been a backup for over half of his career. That is the definition of bust. Ryan Sims is on an NFL roster, so clearly he is not a bust either.

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 07:24 PM
kyle went to/graduated from michigan. does his henne love really shock you?

Ha, true enough... BUT I am not a fan of EVERY ex U-M QB... just saw 4 solid years from Henne and felt he would be a good QB at the pro level... not a GREAT QB... a good solid starter.

Sam Hall
02-08-2009, 07:27 PM
In other words, the No. 3 pick has either been boom or bust. I wouldn't be surprised if the other top 5 spots are the same way.

Ebolapox
02-08-2009, 07:31 PM
Ha, true enough... BUT I am not a fan of EVERY ex U-M QB... just saw 4 solid years from Henne and felt he would be a good QB at the pro level... not a GREAT QB... a good solid starter.

at this point, I'm sick to fucking death of 'good, solid starters.' for every year save 1.5 of my 20 year fandom, I've never seen the chiefs with a franchise QB. a guy who could take the team on his back. the 1.5 years I saw it, we went further into the playoffs than we had since the early 70's.

I believe it's worth gambling (which won't be MUCH of a gamble if pioli is all that he's been anointed as) to get that high upside guy (sanchez or stafford)... you draft either (I'd prefer stafford--he's been nails every time I've seen him, but sanchez may have a higher ceiling) and let him sit for at least a year and learn the ropes. you know, get a competant QB coach and offensive coordinator, build the offense around him, and put him in situations where he can build his confidence.

anyway, I digress. the absolute abject fear of QBs around here is baffling. you'd think that everybody would be sick to death of other teams having that guy and shredding us. remember the 90's? just take a look at who beat us in the playoffs. every playoff loss this decade? peyton fucking manning. srsly. when's it gonna be our turn to have that franchise guy to rip OTHER people's hearts out?

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 07:53 PM
at this point, I'm sick to fucking death of 'good, solid starters.' for every year save 1.5 of my 20 year fandom, I've never seen the chiefs with a franchise QB. a guy who could take the team on his back. the 1.5 years I saw it, we went further into the playoffs than we had since the early 70's.

I believe it's worth gambling (which won't be MUCH of a gamble if pioli is all that he's been anointed as) to get that high upside guy (sanchez or stafford)... you draft either (I'd prefer stafford--he's been nails every time I've seen him, but sanchez may have a higher ceiling) and let him sit for at least a year and learn the ropes. you know, get a competant QB coach and offensive coordinator, build the offense around him, and put him in situations where he can build his confidence.

anyway, I digress. the absolute abject fear of QBs around here is baffling. you'd think that everybody would be sick to death of other teams having that guy and shredding us. remember the 90's? just take a look at who beat us in the playoffs. every playoff loss this decade? peyton fucking manning. srsly. when's it gonna be our turn to have that franchise guy to rip OTHER people's hearts out?

Just as I am tired of hearing about "upside" and "potential" ..

I have no problem taking risks... but the odds are stacked HEAVILY against a junior QB succeeding... what makes either of these two any different?

With the amazing failure rate of junior QBs... I can't imagine it is just coincidence....



Take a look at a PARTIAL list.... (Big Ben had 38 starts so he is a bit of an exception) This is a list of guys that teams "gambled" on... Junior QBs are the SUCKER bet of the draft... If you still want to take that gamble.. I would advise staying away from Vegas, that town was built off bad math....

Ben Roethlisberger, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Alex Smith, Rex Grossman, Todd Marinovich, Andre Ware, Tommy Maddox, Rick Mirer, Heath Shuler, Vince Young, Byron Leftwich, and Michael Vick ... Iguess you could squeeze Aaron Rodgers inthat list... but he was a JuCo transfer so I don't consider him the same as the "true" juniors...

kstater
02-08-2009, 08:03 PM
Just as I am tired of hearing about "upside" and "potential" ..

I have no problem taking risks... but the odds are stacked HEAVILY against a junior QB succeeding... what makes either of these two any different?

With the amazing failure rate of junior QBs... I can't imagine it is just coincidence....



Take a look at a PARTIAL list.... (Big Ben had 38 starts so he is a bit of an exception) This is a list of guys that teams "gambled" on... Junior QBs are the SUCKER bet of the draft... If you still want to take that gamble.. I would advise staying away from Vegas, that town was built off bad math....

Ben Roethlisberger, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Alex Smith, Rex Grossman, Todd Marinovich, Andre Ware, Tommy Maddox, Rick Mirer, Heath Shuler, Vince Young, Byron Leftwich, and Michael Vick ... Iguess you could squeeze Aaron Rodgers inthat list... but he was a JuCo transfer so I don't consider him the same as the "true" juniors...

I see your point, but I think we're going to stop seeing the great QB prospects staying 4 years. There's so much money nowadays that it's not worth a QB to go back. I think the list of successful junior QB's is going to start to grow.

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 08:05 PM
I see your point, but I think we're going to stop seeing the great QB prospects staying 4 years. There's so much money nowadays that it's not worth a QB to go back. I think the list of successful junior QB's is going to start to grow.

I agree, just not sure I want to be on the bleeding edge of that trend. and honestly, I just don't like the two choices we have at this point. Maybe that will change but not right now...

Ebolapox
02-08-2009, 08:19 PM
Just as I am tired of hearing about "upside" and "potential" ..

I have no problem taking risks... but the odds are stacked HEAVILY against a junior QB succeeding... what makes either of these two any different?

With the amazing failure rate of junior QBs... I can't imagine it is just coincidence....



Take a look at a PARTIAL list.... (Big Ben had 38 starts so he is a bit of an exception) This is a list of guys that teams "gambled" on... Junior QBs are the SUCKER bet of the draft... If you still want to take that gamble.. I would advise staying away from Vegas, that town was built off bad math....

Ben Roethlisberger, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Alex Smith, Rex Grossman, Todd Marinovich, Andre Ware, Tommy Maddox, Rick Mirer, Heath Shuler, Vince Young, Byron Leftwich, and Michael Vick ... Iguess you could squeeze Aaron Rodgers inthat list... but he was a JuCo transfer so I don't consider him the same as the "true" juniors...

oh, it's absolutely not a coincidence that jr. qbs tend to bust more often than not. the issue with junior qbs is that they're often drafted by teams that suck and have to start from day one.

a while back, I did a bit of research of first round qbs relative to where they were drafted, and whether they played right off the bat or sat on the bench and learned the ropes. overwhelmingly, the guys who were eased into the lineup were those with the greatest success. you can look at almost every qb on your list, and they mostly played right off the bat.

my take is that, in a perfect world, you draft the senior qb that started 40 games, had a high completion percentage, and played in a pro style offense. this isn't a perfect world. we have stafford and sanchez, who have flashed the ability to be that franchise qb we've lacked, really, since len dawson. and unfortunately, that's what the draft is all about. picking young guys with talent and upside. luckily, we have one of the best guys in the nfl doing the picking for us now. if we draft a qb at number three overall, I have all the confidence in the world that pioli will put him in the position to succeed.

DaneMcCloud
02-08-2009, 09:04 PM
No, I don't believe he will suck. But there are plenty of one year wonders that flame out.

Look no further than your Pro Bowl QB at the number 3 spot, Vince Young.

So, you think there's a 50/50 chance that Matt Ryan will have deep emotional and psychological problems?

DaneMcCloud
02-08-2009, 09:09 PM
He was a number 3 pick in the draft, and has been a backup for over half of his career. That is the definition of bust. Ryan Sims is on an NFL roster, so clearly he is not a bust either.

No, it's not.

THE definition of a bust is Ryan Leaf

The definition of a bust is Akili Smith.

The definition of a bust is Cade McNown.

Do you think that Jim Plunkett was a "bust"? He was number one overall in pick in 1971, yet by 1978, he was a backup QB for the Raiders.

Of course all he did after that was win the Super Bowl in 1981 and 1983.

I'm not predicting future greatness for Joey Harrington but stranger things have happened.

cdcox
02-08-2009, 09:48 PM
Well I think Ryan was significantly better than Flacco this past season...

Not even a question about this.

Do people ever look beyond W-L and stats? I'm as big a stat guy as anyone on the board, but I at least try to evaluate a player on what they do on the field.

I called Chad Pennington "not suitable" after the 2002 season, because I didn't like his weak arm. He had great numbers that year and a playoff win. However, I wrote him off as a championship caliber QB because he could not throw all the passes. You get a good defense in the playoffs and Chad isn't going to deliver. I stick by that assessment to this day.

Mecca
02-08-2009, 09:56 PM
My opinion of QB's right now is that just being from a pro style offense puts them ahead of where most QB's are, the college spread fixation is hurting the QB transitions to the next level..

And Sanchez isn't a true junior by the way.

cdcox
02-08-2009, 10:00 PM
No, I don't believe he will suck. But there are plenty of one year wonders that flame out.

Look no further than your Pro Bowl QB at the number 3 spot, Vince Young.

Vince Young had a 51.5% completion rate in is Pro Bowl year. He made the Pro Bowl due to some crazy comebacks. But a 51.5% completion rate is not a sustainable way to win the NFL. Doesn't take a genius to see that. He was actually better in 2007. Then he went batshit crazy in 2008. If he can get his head together (extremely doubtful) he still has a chance.

Matt Ryan's rookie non-Pro-Bowl year shows much, much more promise than VY's pro-bowl year. Matt Ryan's way of winning is based on strong fundamental play. VY's winning in 2006, was based on miracle comebacks that are non-sustainable without strong fundamentals.

Mecca
02-08-2009, 10:01 PM
It's nice to see Vince Young prove to be what I thought he was...I never thought he could legit play QB in the NFL at an even average level.

DaneMcCloud
02-08-2009, 10:06 PM
It's nice to see Vince Young prove to be what I thought he was...I never thought he could legit play QB in the NFL at an even average level.

But it didn't happen the way you thought it would (me, either).

The guy has serious emotional and psychological issues that have nothing to due with football.

And, his career is far from over. If history teaches us anything, it's that quarterbacks can comeback and play well at nearly anytime before 40.

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 10:24 PM
My opinion of QB's right now is that just being from a pro style offense puts them ahead of where most QB's are, the college spread fixation is hurting the QB transitions to the next level..

And Sanchez isn't a true junior by the way.OK, but he has only started what... 16 games? I am hoping he is a badass and we get him etc etc... I just don't BELIEVE it right now...

Mecca
02-08-2009, 10:28 PM
Let me break this down real fast...

Would you personally feel more comfortable with a player who spent 4 years in a pro style offense at one of the best colleges in the nation, that can play from center, has good footwork, good mechanics, a very good arm, mobility, intangibles all that. He only started 1 year but don't overlook that he had 4 years of development with a team that has as competitive of practices as anyone..

Or would you rather have someone like Colt McCoy who has started a ton of games but it's in the spread formation...

I'd tell you in my opinion Sanchez is more ready than McCoy, Bradford, any spread QB.

doomy3
02-08-2009, 10:33 PM
Vince Young had a 51.5% completion rate in is Pro Bowl year. He made the Pro Bowl due to some crazy comebacks. But a 51.5% completion rate is not a sustainable way to win the NFL. Doesn't take a genius to see that. He was actually better in 2007. Then he went batshit crazy in 2008. If he can get his head together (extremely doubtful) he still has a chance.

Matt Ryan's rookie non-Pro-Bowl year shows much, much more promise than VY's pro-bowl year. Matt Ryan's way of winning is based on strong fundamental play. VY's winning in 2006, was based on miracle comebacks that are non-sustainable without strong fundamentals.

I know this. That's why it's insane to pretend that he was a nice pick at #3 and to play him up as a Pro Bowl QB. That's such an abomination.

Almost as bad as calling Joey Harrington an average NFL QB.

Manila-Chief
02-08-2009, 10:47 PM
but either way, they bear the curse of the junior QB... hard to overcome.

Again, if Sanchez stayed in school and had another great year and we sucked enough to be able to draft him I would have been elated... as it is, not so much.

If he does have the talent, intelligence, mental make up, desire, etc. ... to be a QBOTF, it seems to me being a junior will not matter. The staying in school another year will only help the talent evaluator. It seems to me that if he has the tools he can develop.

Honestly, who cares?

Bill Parcells obviously liked Henne and Newsome liked Flacco. Those are two of the best in the business, so I will trust their judgment over yours.

How do we know that Parcells didn't like Flacco? Did he have a chance to draft him? IIRC Flacco went in the 1st. round and Henne in the 2nd.???? It's true Newsome had a chance to draft either.

at this point, I'm sick to ****ing death of 'good, solid starters.' for every year save 1.5 of my 20 year fandom, I've never seen the chiefs with a franchise QB. a guy who could take the team on his back. the 1.5 years I saw it, we went further into the playoffs than we had since the early 70's.

I believe it's worth gambling (which won't be MUCH of a gamble if pioli is all that he's been anointed as) to get that high upside guy (sanchez or stafford)... you draft either (I'd prefer stafford--he's been nails every time I've seen him, but sanchez may have a higher ceiling) and let him sit for at least a year and learn the ropes. you know, get a competant QB coach and offensive coordinator, build the offense around him, and put him in situations where he can build his confidence.

anyway, I digress. the absolute abject fear of QBs around here is baffling. you'd think that everybody would be sick to death of other teams having that guy and shredding us. remember the 90's? just take a look at who beat us in the playoffs. every playoff loss this decade? peyton ****ing manning. srsly. when's it gonna be our turn to have that franchise guy to rip OTHER people's hearts out?

After reading the article about DeBurg teaching QB's, I think the real question should be if the newly drafted QB's get the coaching/teaching that will help them be a success.

I agree, if Pioli thinks the QB that falls to us is worthy of our pick, I'm more than willing to support him drafting the QB. Why, a top quality QB makes it easier for a team to win and can lead us for the next dozen years. Usually, top draft picks have more talent, which helps him be successful.

cdcox
02-08-2009, 10:49 PM
I know this. That's why it's insane to pretend that he was a nice pick at #3 and to play him up as a Pro Bowl QB. That's such an abomination.

Almost as bad as calling Joey Harrington an average NFL QB.

Gotcha.

Buehler445
02-08-2009, 10:49 PM
Let me break this down real fast...

Would you personally feel more comfortable with a player who spent 4 years in a pro style offense at one of the best colleges in the nation, that can play from center, has good footwork, good mechanics, a very good arm, mobility, intangibles all that. He only started 1 year but don't overlook that he had 4 years of development with a team that has as competitive of practices as anyone..

Or would you rather have someone like Colt McCoy who has started a ton of games but it's in the spread formation...

I'd tell you in my opinion Sanchez is more ready than McCoy, Bradford, any spread QB.

Quick one for you Mecca, which would you rather have Stafford or Sanchez? Don't give me any crap about who Detroit is taking, staff, team, all that other shit. Which is the best prospect in your opinion?

I want Sanchez.

Mecca
02-08-2009, 10:51 PM
Quick one for you Mecca, which would you rather have Stafford or Sanchez? Don't give me any crap about who Detroit is taking, staff, team, all that other shit. Which is the best prospect in your opinion?

I want Sanchez.

I'd probably give a slight lean to Sanchez...he is more accurate but his arm isn't quite as good but you don't need a rocket launcher to be a good QB.

doomy3
02-08-2009, 10:53 PM
If he does have the talent, intelligence, mental make up, desire, etc. ... to be a QBOTF, it seems to me being a junior will not matter. The staying in school another year will only help the talent evaluator. It seems to me that if he has the tools he can develop.



How do we know that Parcells didn't like Flacco? Did he have a chance to draft him? IIRC Flacco went in the 1st. round and Henne in the 2nd.???? It's true Newsome had a chance to draft either.



After reading the article about DeBurg teaching QB's, I think the real question should be if the newly drafted QB's get the coaching/teaching that will help them be a success.

I agree, if Pioli thinks the QB that falls to us is worthy of our pick, I'm more than willing to support him drafting the QB. Why, a top quality QB makes it easier for a team to win and can lead us for the next dozen years. Usually, top draft picks have more talent, which helps him be successful.


Maybe you missed the whole conversation that post was in reference to...

I didn't say anything about Parcells not liking Flacco. I was just pointing out that two of the brightest minds in football liked those 2 QBs who Mecca didn't, and that I would probably trust their judgement over his.

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 11:02 PM
Let me break this down real fast...

Would you personally feel more comfortable with a player who spent 4 years in a pro style offense at one of the best colleges in the nation, that can play from center, has good footwork, good mechanics, a very good arm, mobility, intangibles all that. He only started 1 year but don't overlook that he had 4 years of development with a team that has as competitive of practices as anyone..

Or would you rather have someone like Colt McCoy who has started a ton of games but it's in the spread formation...

I'd tell you in my opinion Sanchez is more ready than McCoy, Bradford, any spread QB.

Would rather have neither. BPA and that is it... I just don't trust junior QBs... end of story... I may be proven wrong this year... but so far the evidence is heavily in my favor....

I would rather trade for a YOUNG QB... I don't mind drafting a QB (see last year) but just not ready for the TOTAL leap of faith that comes with drafting a JUNIOR QB...

AustinChief
02-08-2009, 11:05 PM
I'd probably give a slight lean to Sanchez...he is more accurate but his arm isn't quite as good but you don't need a rocket launcher to be a good QB.

Ok, I agree 100% here... taking a junior QB is a huge risk... if you are gonna take that risk.. go with a guy like Sanchez.

If I am wrong (hopefully) he could really blow things up...



Also, I am not even sure that Stafford has that MUCH better of an arm...

Buehler445
02-08-2009, 11:09 PM
I'd probably give a slight lean to Sanchez...he is more accurate but his arm isn't quite as good but you don't need a rocket launcher to be a good QB.

Cool. Thanks.

I don't really have any basis for it, but the few times I saw Stafford, I was not terribly impressed.

But I wasn't impressed with Ryan either.

Shutting up now.

Manila-Chief
02-08-2009, 11:18 PM
Maybe you missed the whole conversation that post was in reference to...

I didn't say anything about Parcells not liking Flacco. I was just pointing out that two of the brightest minds in football liked those 2 QBs who Mecca didn't, and that I would probably trust their judgement over his.

Okay! That's a better explanation!!! And, I agree.

Manila-Chief
02-08-2009, 11:24 PM
First, I’m smart enough to know that scouts evaluate college players much better than I do and I know I may be wrong. As of right now if I were making the #3 pick, I’d choose Sanchez. He seems to have the tools, has leadership skills, and I like his potential to continue developing into a great NFL QB.

DeezNutz
02-08-2009, 11:26 PM
Ok, I agree 100% here... taking a junior QB is a huge risk... if you are gonna take that risk.. go with a guy like Sanchez.

If I am wrong (hopefully) he could really blow things up...



Also, I am not even sure that Stafford has that MUCH better of an arm...

I don't know why you're so hung about about the "junior" status.

Stafford has started more collegiate games in the best defensive conference in the country than a ton of seniors.

Thus, from here on out we'll call him a "senior" based on his NFL development. Feel better? Same thing with Sanchez. Dude is really a "senior."

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain (pretend you're a devoted WPI subscriber).

DaneMcCloud
02-09-2009, 12:03 AM
Almost as bad as calling Joey Harrington an average NFL QB.


Who, in your "infinite wisdom" is an AVERAGE NFL QB?

Don't EVEN like this shit is rocket-science and can be explained by statistics alone.

Are you a Thigpen supporter?

ChiefsCountry
02-09-2009, 12:24 AM
Take a look at a PARTIAL list.... (Big Ben had 38 starts so he is a bit of an exception) This is a list of guys that teams "gambled" on... Junior QBs are the SUCKER bet of the draft... If you still want to take that gamble.. I would advise staying away from Vegas, that town was built off bad math....

Ben Roethlisberger, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Alex Smith, Rex Grossman, Todd Marinovich, Andre Ware, Tommy Maddox, Rick Mirer, Heath Shuler, Vince Young, Byron Leftwich, and Michael Vick ... Iguess you could squeeze Aaron Rodgers inthat list... but he was a JuCo transfer so I don't consider him the same as the "true" juniors...

Leaf - spread
Couch - spread/Mike Leach
Smith - spread
Grossman - Spurrier's Fun N Gun
Ware - Run N Shoot
Young - Spread
Vick - Option

RustShack
02-09-2009, 01:36 AM
Seems like a good pick for a WR :hmmm:

Don't show Haley or Piolis this list!

AustinChief
02-09-2009, 02:18 AM
I don't know why you're so hung about about the "junior" status.

Stafford has started more collegiate games in the best defensive conference in the country than a ton of seniors.

Thus, from here on out we'll call him a "senior" based on his NFL development. Feel better? Same thing with Sanchez. Dude is really a "senior."

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain (pretend you're a devoted WPI subscriber).
Stafford has started alot of game.. just not impressed.. Sanchez I AM impressed with but... 16 games? Sorry, but the STATS are on my side... I am perfectly willing to be wrong... but so far.. no one has made a halfway decent argument as to WHY I am....

AustinChief
02-09-2009, 02:22 AM
Leaf - spread
Couch - spread/Mike Leach
Smith - spread
Grossman - Spurrier's Fun N Gun
Ware - Run N Shoot
Young - Spread
Vick - Option

and your point is?

ok, half of my not even close to complete list were "gimmick" college players... I can add another 4 or 5 that weren't.... the argument is... what JUNIORS have succeeded in the NFL... maybe I am wrong and it is now TIME for JUNIORS to succeed... but HISTORY shows otherwise so far...

ANYONE have a valid statistical argument to contradict me?

Hog Farmer
02-09-2009, 03:44 AM
What suprizes me is that there have been no kickers or punters drafted #3

Mecca
02-09-2009, 04:01 AM
and your point is?

ok, half of my not even close to complete list were "gimmick" college players... I can add another 4 or 5 that weren't.... the argument is... what JUNIORS have succeeded in the NFL... maybe I am wrong and it is now TIME for JUNIORS to succeed... but HISTORY shows otherwise so far...

ANYONE have a valid statistical argument to contradict me?

Well Ben Roethlisberger was an underclassman...

I can throw up alot of arguments about why it's felt to be important. Most guys who declared early were big stat, system guys who wanted to get paid..Akili Smith comes to mind a guy who failed as a baseball player then returned to college to play football had his 1 good season and bolted.

Most of the time people don't like to take underclassmen because they haven't been well coached and they are unrefined so they'll need more work. The fact is with a guy like Sanchez he's been well coached he isn't going to learn anything else in college...

There are a huge list of seniors that have failed aswell, hell when you get out of the 1st round you're talking about basically a 5% chance of finding a franchise QB yet people always seem to want to do that.

It's about finding a guy who has the natural physical talent, the makeup and intangibles to lead your team and your franchise a guy with the desire to live and breathe nothing but the game so much so watching film is something he wants and loves to do not something he considers work.

I think Sanchez has the makeup to be a successful QB and he has supreme physical talent, and he's been very well coached in a pro style offense he properly drops, takes snaps and sets up and throws properly.

He's had responsibility for plays at SC you don't see him looking to the sideline for audibles.

I think the experience thing would mean something if you could show me something he doesn't do well because he needs more experience but that isn't the case with this guy.

I'm going to borrow a post I saw on another forum because it sums up the underclassmen QB thing pretty well...

Simple minded people don't understand rules like 'junior QB's never pan out' are nonsense. Just because junior QB's in the past have had a poor track record does not mean some cosmic force will prevent future one's from having good careers. A BS rule about junior QB's mean as much as the old rule "rookie QB's never play well".

doomy3
02-09-2009, 09:01 AM
Who, in your "infinite wisdom" is an AVERAGE NFL QB?

Don't EVEN like this shit is rocket-science and can be explained by statistics alone.

Are you a Thigpen supporter?

Jake Delhomme
Jeff Garcia
Marc Bulger
Matt Hasselbeck
David Garrard
Kerry Collins
Steve DeBerg
Dave Kreig
etc...

Manila-Chief
02-09-2009, 09:16 AM
Austin, I, too, am not sure what your hang up is over junior QB’s? It’s scouting and not stats that determine if a player is worth a draft pick. It seems to it’s a matter of whether a QB has the talent, skills, intellect, attitude, etc. to be a great NFL QB or not? If he does, he can gain the experience in the NFL, if … (last year that would have been a giant IF for us) he received the coaching/opportunity by the team. You can teach experience but you can’t teach the intangibles.

You say Sanchez started 16 games. I just looked up Tom Brady’s info on Wikipedia and it says he won 20 of 25. That’s 9 more games started but not a whole heck of a lot. Both, had to sit behind really good QB’s for years. (With Tom’s credentials, I wonder how in the world he could have been overlooked … I mean % of wins, championships, intellect, etc.??? Guess Pioli/N.E. recognized his greatness when Carl really didn’t know talent???, but that’s a side issue.)

I noticed Brady graduated cum laude. Intelligence is a huge factor for a QB. Anybody know Sanchez/Stafford’s IQ?

DeezNutz ... I agree, with you, that Sanchez is not a junior. He may be in football eligibility but not in school classification. Stafford has started more games than most drafted seniors. Both are more mature than a college freshman starting his first game, so it shouldn’t be an issue. Scouting is the issue. And, I humbly yield to Scott/Todd to make the determinations for all of our picks.

BigRedChief
02-09-2009, 09:45 AM
So what is everyones theory that Haley will want a "Fitzgerald type" WR and take Crabtree at #3?

DeezNutz
02-09-2009, 09:50 AM
So what is everyones theory that Haley will want a "Fitzgerald type" WR and take Crabtree at #3?

The dominant reply to this will be that Crabtree is not near the prospect that Fitz was and certainly not worth the #3 overall pick.

Additionally, it sure doesn't help that Crabtree is refusing to run the 40.

Molitoth
02-09-2009, 10:27 AM
70% of statistics are over-rated.

DaneMcCloud
02-09-2009, 10:55 AM
Jake Delhomme
Jeff Garcia
Marc Bulger
Matt Hasselbeck
David Garrard
Kerry Collins
Steve DeBerg
Dave Kreig
etc...

ROFL

Delhomme, Collins and Hasselbeck are average?

I'm sorry but this discussion is over. You clearly don't understand the difference between a bust (someone who NEVER had a career), an average QB, an above average QB and guys who have led their respective teams to the Super Bowl.

JFC.

doomy3
02-09-2009, 11:07 AM
ROFL

Delhomme, Collins and Hasselbeck are average?

I'm sorry but this discussion is over. You clearly don't understand the difference between a bust (someone who NEVER had a career), an average QB, an above average QB and guys who have led their respective teams to the Super Bowl.

JFC.

Taking your team to the Super Bowl isn't the end all be all to a QB being great. Trent Dilfer was an average QB too, and he won a Super Bowl.

You obviously have much lower expectations than I do for someone who we will draft at number 3. At that slot we need a game changer, and none of those players I listed are that.

Just because someone is a starter on a team other than the Chiefs, that doesn't mean that they are above average. All of those guys I listed are average NFL starting QBs in my opinion. Much more so than Joey Harrington, that's for sure.

How many of the guys off that list would you be happy with if we could draft that player at #3?

OnTheWarpath58
02-09-2009, 11:26 AM
Well Ben Roethlisberger was an underclassman...

I can throw up alot of arguments about why it's felt to be important. Most guys who declared early were big stat, system guys who wanted to get paid..Akili Smith comes to mind a guy who failed as a baseball player then returned to college to play football had his 1 good season and bolted.

Most of the time people don't like to take underclassmen because they haven't been well coached and they are unrefined so they'll need more work. The fact is with a guy like Sanchez he's been well coached he isn't going to learn anything else in college...

There are a huge list of seniors that have failed aswell, hell when you get out of the 1st round you're talking about basically a 5% chance of finding a franchise QB yet people always seem to want to do that.

It's about finding a guy who has the natural physical talent, the makeup and intangibles to lead your team and your franchise a guy with the desire to live and breathe nothing but the game so much so watching film is something he wants and loves to do not something he considers work.

I think Sanchez has the makeup to be a successful QB and he has supreme physical talent, and he's been very well coached in a pro style offense he properly drops, takes snaps and sets up and throws properly.

He's had responsibility for plays at SC you don't see him looking to the sideline for audibles.

I think the experience thing would mean something if you could show me something he doesn't do well because he needs more experience but that isn't the case with this guy.

I'm going to borrow a post I saw on another forum because it sums up the underclassmen QB thing pretty well...

Simple minded people don't understand rules like 'junior QB's never pan out' are nonsense. Just because junior QB's in the past have had a poor track record does not mean some cosmic force will prevent future one's from having good careers. A BS rule about junior QB's mean as much as the old rule "rookie QB's never play well".

Spot on, and I'm making some room in my sig for that quote as we speak.

doomy3
02-09-2009, 01:45 PM
ROFL

Delhomme, Collins and Hasselbeck are average?

I'm sorry but this discussion is over. You clearly don't understand the difference between a bust (someone who NEVER had a career), an average QB, an above average QB and guys who have led their respective teams to the Super Bowl.

JFC.

OK, you got me thinking about this and if maybe I was being too hard on some of these QBs. So, I listed each starting QB from last year and where I would rank them roughly. Where do you disagree that Delhomme, Collins or Hasselbeck should move up this list? And where would Harrington fit in here. By definition, average would be anything in the middle group, numbers 10 or 11 through about 21.


1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Donovan McNabb
5. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Kurt Warner
7. Tony Romo
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Jay Cutler
10. Eli Manning
11. Carson Palmer
12. Matt Ryan
13. Aaron Rogers
14. Matt Hasselbeck
15. David Garrard
16. Marc Bulger
17. Kerry Collins
18. Chad Pennington
19. Jeff Garcia
20. Matt Shaub
21. Brett Favre
22. Trent Edwards
23. Joe Flacco
24. Jake Delhomme
25. Jason Campbell
26. Kyle Orton
27. Tyler Thigpen
28. Shaun Hill
29. Brady Quinn
30. JaMarcus Russell
31. Tarvaris Jackson
32. Dan Orlovsky

Saul Good
02-09-2009, 06:13 PM
Jake Delhomme
Jeff Garcia
Marc Bulger
Matt Hasselbeck
David Garrard
Kerry Collins
Steve DeBerg
Dave Kreig
etc...

Every QB on that list is well above average.

Saul Good
02-09-2009, 06:20 PM
OK, you got me thinking about this and if maybe I was being too hard on some of these QBs. So, I listed each starting QB from last year and where I would rank them roughly. Where do you disagree that Delhomme, Collins or Hasselbeck should move up this list? And where would Harrington fit in here. By definition, average would be anything in the middle group, numbers 10 or 11 through about 21.


1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Donovan McNabb
5. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Kurt Warner
7. Tony Romo
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Jay Cutler
10. Eli Manning
11. Carson Palmer
12. Matt Ryan
13. Aaron Rogers
14. Matt Hasselbeck
15. David Garrard
16. Marc Bulger
17. Kerry Collins
18. Chad Pennington
19. Jeff Garcia
20. Matt Shaub
21. Brett Favre
22. Trent Edwards
23. Joe Flacco
24. Jake Delhomme
25. Jason Campbell
26. Kyle Orton
27. Tyler Thigpen
28. Shaun Hill
29. Brady Quinn
30. JaMarcus Russell
31. Tarvaris Jackson
32. Dan Orlovsky

You are listing starting QBs. There were over 100 QBs in the NFL this year.

doomy3
02-09-2009, 06:20 PM
OK, you got me thinking about this and if maybe I was being too hard on some of these QBs. So, I listed each starting QB from last year and where I would rank them roughly. Where do you disagree that Delhomme, Collins or Hasselbeck should move up this list? And where would Harrington fit in here. By definition, average would be anything in the middle group, numbers 10 or 11 through about 21.


1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Donovan McNabb
5. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Kurt Warner
7. Tony Romo
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Jay Cutler
10. Eli Manning
11. Carson Palmer
12. Matt Ryan
13. Aaron Rogers
14. Matt Hasselbeck
15. David Garrard
16. Marc Bulger
17. Kerry Collins
18. Chad Pennington
19. Jeff Garcia
20. Matt Shaub
21. Brett Favre
22. Trent Edwards
23. Joe Flacco
24. Jake Delhomme
25. Jason Campbell
26. Kyle Orton
27. Tyler Thigpen
28. Shaun Hill
29. Brady Quinn
30. JaMarcus Russell
31. Tarvaris Jackson
32. Dan Orlovsky

Every QB on that list is well above average.


OK, please show me where they should be listed then in this group. As far as I have them ranked, they are the very definition of average.

ChiefsCountry
02-09-2009, 06:22 PM
OK, please show me where they should be listed then in this group. As far as I have them ranked, they are the very definition of average.

The problem with your list is you just listed the starting QB's when you factor in most teams carry 3 then your list is schewed. All the starters are above average in the league, the top backups are the average QB's, and the 3rd stringers are the scrubs.

doomy3
02-09-2009, 06:23 PM
You are listing starting QBs. There were over 100 QBs in the NFL this year.

so, we are looking for someone that could be a decent backup then?

Of course I am listing starting QBs. Usually when you look at a team and say if they have a good QB or not, you look at the starter, no?

You're right, of every QB playing, backing up, and on a practice squad in the NFL, Joey Harrington is average.

I'm sure that the Lions are just thrilled that they got him at #3!

doomy3
02-09-2009, 06:25 PM
The problem with your list is you just listed the starting QB's when you factor in most teams carry 3 then your list is schewed. All the starters are above average in the league, the top backups are the average QB's, and the 3rd stringers are the scrubs.

I have literally NEVER seen anyone argue that Joey Harrington is an average NFL QB until this thread. I honestly can't believe it.

OK, every starting QB in the NFL is above average then.

Then, of course let's draft a QB! He's guaranteed to be at least average!

DaneMcCloud
02-09-2009, 09:55 PM
I have literally NEVER seen anyone argue that Joey Harrington is an average NFL QB until this thread. I honestly can't believe it.

OK, every starting QB in the NFL is above average then.

Then, of course let's draft a QB! He's guaranteed to be at least average!

Who said anything about drafting an "average" QB?

Furthermore, if Joey Harrington wasn't at least "average", he wouldn't have over 15,000 yards passing in the NFL and he would not be a member of the New Orleans Saints.

And he wouldn't be backing up Drew Brees and the number one offense in the league. Somehow, some way, I think Sean Payton has this offense thing figured out and if Harrington couldn't hack it, he'd be gone.

Bowser
02-09-2009, 10:11 PM
I knew Bruce Pickens and Heath Schuler were first rounders, but I had forgotten that they were picked so high. Talk about legalized thievery (for them)....

Saul Good
02-10-2009, 07:49 PM
I have literally NEVER seen anyone argue that Joey Harrington is an average NFL QB until this thread. I honestly can't believe it.

OK, every starting QB in the NFL is above average then.

Then, of course let's draft a QB! He's guaranteed to be at least average!

Nobody said that we wanted an average QB, but that wasn't your argument. You argued that Harrington wasn't an average QB. List every QB in the NFL, and I will rank him along with
Jake Delhomme
Jeff Garcia
Marc Bulger
Matt Hasselbeck
David Garrard
Kerry Collins
Steve DeBerg
Dave Kreig

doomy3
02-10-2009, 07:51 PM
Nobody said that we wanted an average QB, but that wasn't your argument. You argued that Harrington wasn't an average QB. List every QB in the NFL, and I will rank him along with
Jake Delhomme
Jeff Garcia
Marc Bulger
Matt Hasselbeck
David Garrard
Kerry Collins
Steve DeBerg
Dave Kreig



No shit? You would put Joey Harrington on the same level as those guys? Wow.

BigRedChief
02-11-2009, 02:18 PM
The dominant reply to this will be that Crabtree is not near the prospect that Fitz was and certainly not worth the #3 overall pick.

Additionally, it sure doesn't help that Crabtree is refusing to run the 40.
THE SPACE BETWEEN espn.com
By Bruce Feldman

Michael Crabtree looks overmatched. It is July 31, 2006, and Crabtree is getting posted up in the Texas High School Coaches Association all-star basketball game. In a few days he'll begin his football career at Texas Tech, but tonight the 6'3", 200-pound kid is locked up with Dexter Pittman, a 6'10", 320-pounder with a backside as broad as a Buick. Pittman wants position, and Crabtree isn't about to give it to him. Crabtree started the game on the bench and watched Pittman, a nationally ranked recruit bound for Texas, stake the South squad to an early large lead. Pittman would be a load for some NBA bigs, but Crabtree loves this challenge. All season he banged with big men as the brawniest player in Dallas Carter High's five-guard lineup. Crabtree's dad, Michael Sr., isn't worried either. He knows this is the same kid who, as a high school freshman, persuaded the varsity football coach to let him play lockdown corner. This is the same kid who, in second grade, used to fight sixth-grade bullies. And it's the same kid who, as a 5-year-old, was hospitalized with an infection in his leg that forced him to miss all but the last game of the flag football season—then, the first time he touched the ball, Li'l Crab ran up the middle, over a defender and 80 yards downfield for a touchdown. On this night, Crabtree's 16 points and seven boards aren't enough to lead a comeback. But the media still vote him the North's MVP. "My kid," Crabtree Sr. says proudly, "has heart!"

And hands. And smarts. In fact, ask anyone who knows Crabtree how a redshirt freshman who never played wideout can catch 134 passes for 1,962 yards and 22 TDs, and each will give you a different answer. We know—we did just that. But all the answers led to this ultimate truth: Michael Crabtree is college football's premier receiver.

"A GREAT SENSE OF SPACE"
Prod Texas Tech coach Mike Leach to say what makes Crabtree such a prodigious receiving talent, and he responds with a curious answer for a football coach: "He has a great sense of space." Usually you'll hear coaches wax on about a pass-catcher's blazing speed or soft hands or quick feet coming out of breaks. But Leach explains that maneuvering in space is essential to route-running. Or, as it should be called in Tech's four-wide, no-huddle, shotgun attack, route-adjusting. Leach explains that Crabtree, like former Tech and current Patriots star Wes Welker, has an uncanny knack for reading coverages and adjusting his routes "without breaking the integrity of the combination of the other routes." In layman's terms: Crabtree doesn't run into teammates or flood spots designed to be opened up by the play. Once the ball is snapped, Red Raiders QB Graham Harrell and his receivers quickly recalculate, reading coverages and scouting downfield for holes instead of automatically running a precise route. "We coach it. We encourage it. We insist on it," Leach says of improvisation. "You show the player on film: 'You're standing here covered by this guy, but there's a big hole right here. Why is that?' " The coach rubs his eyes in mock frustration before continuing. " 'If you take three steps over here, you're wide open.' " Leach has no such problems with Crabtree, and the coach thinks the player developed his keen sense of surroundings on the basketball court. But Crabtree says he just puts in a lot of time studying film and getting reps with his QB. But Mike, don't all receivers know to do those things? "It's one thing to know it," Crabtree says, "and it's another thing to do it."

"FIGURE OUT HOW TO COUNTER EVERYTHING"
Crabtree's cousin David Wells believes the receiver's greatness is rooted not in hoops but in boxing. Sparring taught Crabtree what his body could do. Wells knows what he's talking about: He trained former WBC middleweight champ Quincy Taylor. And when his cousin was in junior high, the two worked out together for three hours several nights a week. "Training like a boxer really worked on Michael's reflexes," Wells says. "He worked on his hand-eye coordination and was constantly working with his body, always having to figure out how to counter everything, how to change angles." And although Wells says Crabtree "looked like a scared rat" the first time he got into the ring, the kid was slick enough to win the respect of the older guys in the gym. Boxing taught Crabtree something else, too: about the solitude of sports, about how to hardwire your mind to adjust to your environment. In late summer 2006, before Crabtree's freshman year, he was put in academic limbo by the NCAA because his high school had lost some of his paperwork before finally sending it to the NCAA clearinghouse. Crabtree waited while Tech appealed.

Weeks passed. No updates. "I was like, Man, what am I gonna do?" he says. "I was so lost." Crabtree hurt too much even to go to the stadium and watch his team play. By the time he found out he was eligible—after Tech's third game that season—coaches had decided to redshirt him. He was still too upset to attend games in person, so he sat in his apartment and listened to them on the radio. Allen Wilson, the coach at Carter High, says the year off was a blessing for Crabtree, giving him time to learn the nuances of playing receiver. Better still, it fueled him, adding to the hunger that Wilson believes makes the receiver special: "Not getting to play that year was the best thing that could have happened to him."


"JUST PLAY FASTER"
Remember that little kid with the leg infection who went 80 yards to score in a flag football game? He grew up to be the Wing-T high school QB who, when Texas recruiters asked him about playing defense for the Longhorns, waved them off and said, "I want to score touchdowns." He grew up to be the kid who, when Bobby Knight asked him about playing hoops for the Red Raiders, said no thanks but claimed he'd be All-Big 12 if he did play. Sound boastful? Well, Tech's football coaches have learned not to doubt him. Receivers coach Lincoln Riley says Crabtree has looked polished from his first day playing the position.

"Welker and Crabtree are definitely the smartest wide receivers we've ever had here," Riley says. "And not just by a little. And whether they run a 4.4 or a 4.7, they never get confused, so they just play faster. "Michael knows where the holes are gonna be, especially in those scramble situations," Riley continues. "And you can tell him things that may screw up other guys. He just gets it. " Welker, whom Tech coaches dubbed The Natural, says Crabtree's burst is what separates him on the field, although neither player has ever been called a burner. Leach likes to say, "If the NFL were one-hand touch, Welker would be out of a job." When Crabtree's teammates hear the same things about their superstar, they have a standard response: For not being very fast, Crabtree sure runs past a lot of former track stars.

"HE GOES UP AND FIGHTS FOR THE BALL"
This summer, Wells, who says he has worked security for some of the Dallas Cowboys, arranged for Crabtree to work out at Deion Sanders' football camp in Dallas. For two days, Crabtree ran routes against Pacman Jones and other NFL defensive backs while Sanders and his pal Michael Irvin gave him pointers. Crabtree says Irvin showed him how to beat press coverage and maneuver through a defensive backfield. The NFL players say Crabtree showed them a few things too. "Man, he's a helluva player," says Omar Stoutmire, an 11-year NFL vet. "The way No matter how well Crabtree does on the field this season, there will always be skeptics who say that his greatness is merely a result of the Tech system. They'll say he's a step slow. They'll predict he'll be exposed if he goes pro a year from now and faces real defenses. And they'll be wrong.he goes up and fights for the ball—you won't find many receivers who can do it like that. I saw him make three catches against some of the best cornerbacks in the NFL. That's all about attitude."

Mecca
02-12-2009, 04:43 AM
Great he fights for the ball...does this really change that he's not fast, is coming from the spread and all that? Did he fight for the ball against Ole Miss when they completely owned him in his bowl game? The space thing is laughable at best he's in the god damn spread what do you expect?

And if they keep comparing him to Welker I'm gonna laugh my balls off, slot WR in the top 5 bank it!

No article in the world is going to sell me on a WR who doesn't have all the tools being worthy of a top 5 pick.

He does not compare to Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald and so forth.

BigRedChief
02-12-2009, 07:38 AM
Great he fights for the ball...does this really change that he's not fast, is coming from the spread and all that? Did he fight for the ball against Ole Miss when they completely owned him in his bowl game? The space thing is laughable at best he's in the god damn spread what do you expect?

And if they keep comparing him to Welker I'm gonna laugh my balls off, slot WR in the top 5 bank it!

No article in the world is going to sell me on a WR who doesn't have all the tools being worthy of a top 5 pick.

He does not compare to Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald and so forth.
He's not my pick if I was the GM of the Chiefs and picking 3rd. just thought it was a good background article.