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View Full Version : Chiefs Does D. Johnson fit on a 3-4 D? Hali too.....


bowener
02-27-2009, 01:32 PM
I am in need of some enlightenment.

He doesn't seem like he relishes contact, so I do not see him as the ILB that sheds the block at the LOS and takes down the RB at or behind the line. He also seems a little smaller than typical for the OLB position.

Am I completely wrong on those assertions? I just need some knowledge.

Also, is it possible we trade him? He has under performed, as did all of the Chiefs defenses in the last decade, but his contract is up pretty soon.

I was wondering if it was a suitable idea to trade him for a draft pick, or an up-and-coming no namer LB (plus picks)?

Well, please educate me on these matters. I need to go get some beer now.


edit: WTF does Hali do now? Nothing as usual? Beef up and play DE? Leave?

RustShack
02-27-2009, 01:36 PM
ILB

htismaqe
02-27-2009, 01:38 PM
I think he'd make a fine ILB in a 3-4.

sedated
02-27-2009, 01:39 PM
I figured he would be OLB. He has speed, when he was drafted the coaches raved about his ability to cover space in the passing game, and didn't he get a lot of sacks in college?

keg in kc
02-27-2009, 01:40 PM
He'd fit as the inside coverage backer. He probably is undersized for the outside.

RustShack
02-27-2009, 01:40 PM
Donnie Edwards was a pretty good ILB for the Chargers.

keg in kc
02-27-2009, 01:41 PM
I figured he would be OLB. He has speed, when he was drafted the coaches raved about his ability to cover space in the passing game, and didn't he get a lot of sacks in college?No, statistically he was similar to Aaron Curry. I don't remember the exact number of sacks, but it wasn't many.

bowener
02-27-2009, 01:43 PM
I was also wondering, with the trade for Vrabel, will we see the Chiefs in a 3-4/4-3 hybrid where Vrabel plays on the LOS with his hand in the dirt half the game, and the other half upright and outside like a traditional OLB?

He is 6'4" and 260lbs.

It could also mean we are trading Tony since MV has some pretty sweet hands at the TE position! He has 8 TD's....... :)

bowener
02-27-2009, 01:45 PM
Do you think DJ could put on 10 pounds and play OLB? How much speed could he retain weighing in at 250lbs and 6'3"?

Demonpenz
02-27-2009, 01:47 PM
no offense, but derrick johnson sucks

bowener
02-27-2009, 01:48 PM
No, statistically he was similar to Aaron Curry. I don't remember the exact number of sacks, but it wasn't many.

8.5 sacks

Link (http://www.extremeskins.com/archive/index.php/t-92880.html)

mrdad45
02-27-2009, 01:49 PM
I do not worry about DJ fitting in as much as it's starting to look like Hali doesn't have a position. The only spot I thought he could fill, is now occupied by Vrabel. Will be interesting to see how he is used or dealt.

bowener
02-27-2009, 01:51 PM
I do not worry about DJ fitting in as much as it's starting to look like Hali doesn't have a position. The only spot I thought he could fill, is now occupied by Vrabel. Will be interesting to see how he is used or dealt.

Hali, arguably, has no position on any team. Without a premier pass rusher pushing the pocket toward Hali every play he was unable to really do much damage in the back field, ever.

Edit: He seems good at not leaving the LOS, so maybe they can convince him to play heavy and add 20+ lbs and play DE in a rotation or something. Hopefully he would be strong enough then to hold up his blocker and shed him to make some plays some times.

keg in kc
02-27-2009, 01:52 PM
Hali, arguably, has no position on any team. Without a premier pass rusher pushing the pocket toward Hali every play he was unable to really do much damage in the back field, ever.Hali really is the one these threads should be about, I'd say, rather than DJ and Dorsey.

bowener
02-27-2009, 01:54 PM
Hali really is the one these threads should be about, I'd say, rather than DJ and Dorsey.

Ok, editing.

ChiefsCountry
02-27-2009, 01:57 PM
Tamba is done here. He might fit as a 3-4 end but I doubt it.

crazycoffey
02-27-2009, 02:00 PM
Tamba is done here. He might fit as a 3-4 end but I doubt it.

I'd think OLB would be his best "gamble" in a 3-4, questions would be coverage, athletic ablility to make the change. IDK

ChiefsCountry
02-27-2009, 02:03 PM
I'd think OLB would be his best "gamble" in a 3-4, questions would be coverage, athletic ablility to make the change. IDK

Nope Hali would really struggle in that move. His best shot would be a 3rd down passrusher as a 3-4 end.

bdeg
02-27-2009, 02:11 PM
DJ will make a good inside backer. Hali will make a poor OLB.

bdeg
02-27-2009, 02:14 PM
Nope Hali would really struggle in that move. His best shot would be a 3rd down passrusher as a 3-4 end.

There's no move he won't struggle with.. Maybe a dime-package 3-4 end but I doubt even that. I wonder if he has any trade value, maybe a 3rd or 4th?

BigRedChief
02-27-2009, 02:17 PM
I think he'd make a fine ILB in a 3-4.
yep, he might finally fulfill his potential there.

Chief_in_Commander
02-27-2009, 02:27 PM
I would just be happy with consistently adequate....and I just can't see Hali playing anywhere in the 3-4 either, he is probly done here

Rain Man
02-27-2009, 03:11 PM
I think Derrick Johnson would be a good OLB, and that Dorsey could be a good DE in a 3-4.

My initial thinking was that Hali was out of luck, but when we think about Hali, what are his strengths? He consistently moves to the ball and is very active. His weakness is shedding blocks. I think he could be a large ILB in a 3-4, a la those big Steeler 'backers of the past 15 years.

Count Zarth
03-09-2009, 07:54 PM
HALI TO MLB! (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=115&f=1837&t=4051750)

L.A. Chieffan
03-09-2009, 07:56 PM
THE DEAL IS DONE

RustShack
03-09-2009, 10:06 PM
Hasn't Turk McBride been out of place since we drafted him? Isn't he a 3-4 DE? Boone might be too old now, but a few years back he could have been a perfect 3-4 DE... he might still have a little bit left in the tank. As for Hali... his best bet is probably at DE.

DeezNutz
03-09-2009, 10:09 PM
My initial thinking was that Hali was out of luck, but when we think about Hali, what are his strengths? He consistently moves to the ball and is very active. His weakness is shedding blocks. I think he could be a large ILB in a 3-4, a la those big Steeler 'backers of the past 15 years.

You're faster than Hali, Rain Man. He's not going to be able to cover anyone or show the necessary lateral quickness and speed.

DeezNutz
03-09-2009, 10:10 PM
HALI TO MLB! (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=115&f=1837&t=4051750)

Carpet bomb that sack of shit. Use your mod powers for the betterment of people everywhere.

Count Zarth
03-09-2009, 10:12 PM
Carpet bomb that sack of shit. Use your mod powers for the betterment of people everywhere.

As much as I want to, it wouldn't be right. Everyone has a right to talk about football, no matter their number of chromosomes.

Basileus777
03-09-2009, 10:17 PM
DJ at OLB is just crazy talk. The biggest weakness in his game is taking on blockers, he can't play OLB in the 3-4. But put him next to a run stuffer and he can play ILB.

Blick
03-09-2009, 10:50 PM
Hali could play OLB on running downs and DE on passing downs.

FAX
03-09-2009, 11:04 PM
There's a chance (and a pretty good one, too) that we have more raw talent on the field than some peeps realize. With Herm and Gunther out of the equation, maybe these guys can do more than we think. I honestly believe that DJ and Hali have both been severely coached down. Dorsey too, probably - although he's had far less exposure to those career killers.

FAX

DeezNutz
03-09-2009, 11:06 PM
DJ, assuming he has the necessary intellect, like being able to count, should be more productive with improved coaching.

If we do indeed move to the 3-4, it would likely be asking Hali and Dorsey to do things they're simply not physically capable of achieving.

FAX
03-09-2009, 11:12 PM
So far as I know, this whole 3/4 thing was started when some local KC writer mentioned in a throwaway article that Pioli excelled at finding players for that scheme. Is that not correct? Is there any serious reason to believe that we'll convert to the 3/4? Has Haley said it? Has Pioli? Has a DC even been named?

If not, I think it's highly unlikely that we'll convert to a 3/4 this year. As we all know, our best front 7 players simply don't fit the scheme. Some hybrid defense, maybe. But, all I've heard Haley say is that they'll build the scheme to suit the talent of the players we have. Frankly, I think that's all they can do with any reasonable expectation of success.

If I'm wrong and Haley has committed to the 3/4, please illuminate.

FAX

bdeg
03-09-2009, 11:22 PM
It was speculation until Pioli traded for Mike Vrabel, who is best in a 3-4 and would make the transition a lot easier for us.

But ya, definitely not in stone, and I'd bet we run both next year.

FAX
03-09-2009, 11:30 PM
It was speculation until Pioli traded for Mike Vrabel, who is best in a 3-4 and would make the transition a lot easier for us.

But ya, definitely not in stone, and I'd bet we run both next year.

I understand that Vrabel is a 3/4 guy, Mr. bdeg, but you don't build your entire defense around one aging linebacker with declining skills, no matter what the NE fans think of him.

I'm still more than just a little skeptical that we're going to convert to the 3/4 under these conditions and with these players. It just doesn't make sense.

Maybe in 2 to 3 years. And, as you say, perhaps we'll run some kind of hybrid in the meantime in order to assess the players' ability to execute that defense while familiarizing them with the scheme. But as of now, it seems a little like a tempest in a teapot to me.

FAX

bdeg
03-09-2009, 11:34 PM
But look at it this way: the only defensive move Pioli has made so far, besides taking out some trash, was to acquire a 3-4 player. It may be the first of many, we'll find out in April.

Or, I'll admit, he might have been brought on entirely for his leadership and not how he plays in a 3-4.

FAX
03-09-2009, 11:43 PM
But look at it this way: the only defensive move Pioli has made so far, besides taking out some trash, was to acquire a 3-4 player. ...

And that, Mr. bdeg, is an excellent point. You're right. It is an indicator when you isolate the move in that way.

So, if the theory is correct, Pioli and Haley either; A) Believe that our guys can convert to and be effective in that scheme, or B) They are willing and prepared to scrap our highest draft choices of the last several years. Hmmm.

I can understand the desire to move to that defense if our FO and coaching staff is more familiar and comfortable with it. I can't, however, understand the desire to basically start from scratch with an entirely new group of players and tossing guys like DJ, Dorsey, and Hali at this point in their careers. Or, maybe I'm growing weary of this whole "rebuild" thing.

Then again, perhaps Pioli believes he has a stable of trade value in hand?

FAX

bdeg
03-09-2009, 11:54 PM
Yes, starting over is not ideal but for all we know Pioli is 100% committed to the 3-4. If he believes in the scheme being superior, no player would make him hold off forever. And when you get as many picks, but give up as many yards as we did last season your front 7 is obviously a huge problem. A lot of that was probably coaching though, so who knows? And agreed, we could definitely see a lot of the guys that don't fit get shipped out.

KCChiefsMan
03-10-2009, 12:02 AM
I bet we will be lining up in 4-3 all year

SenselessChiefsFan
03-10-2009, 05:09 AM
I bet we will be lining up in 4-3 all year

You ought to take you money to Vegas. I am sure you could get great odds. The Chiefs didn't even line up in the 4-3 all last year. They used the 3-4, 3-3, and the 5-2 on occaision.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-10-2009, 05:26 AM
Nope Hali would really struggle in that move. His best shot would be a 3rd down passrusher as a 3-4 end.

He would be asked to rush the passer more than cover, and he has done fine in coverage as he has been asked to do in the zone blitz. OLB's in the 3-4, aren't typically matched up on athletic TE's going across the field.

I think Hali will be an OLB, but even if they have to beef him up and put him at DE, I think he will stay on this team. He is a high effort, high character guy that has more talent than guys on here give him credit for. I think that is the type of guy the Chiefs are looking to keep and develop.

It will be interesting to watch how things develop.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-10-2009, 05:30 AM
Let's not forget that in a 3-4, the defensive line is mostly trying to occupy blockers, not get upfield and make plays. As such, DJ will see fewer blockers than he has in the past, not MORE. He will have two bigger OLB's that will be protecting him on the outside as well in the run game. He should have a better year. But, I am not a huge fan of DJ. DJ is a more athletic, less consistent, less intelligent, less dedicated version of Donnie Edwards.... IMO.

And, while I think he will be 'good' in this scheme.... I think this is his last year.

chiefzilla1501
03-10-2009, 05:51 AM
Whoa, I'm surprised more people haven't jumped onto this.

DJ would make a horrible OLB. OLBs in a 3-4 are usually around 260 lbs. And DJ's best strength is coverage and you're putting him in a position where pass rushing should be your greatest strength? Why would you do that? DJ's an adequate pass rusher at best. In a 3-4, he'd be asked on some downs to put his hand on the ground and rush the passer as if he was an edge rusher. So a few years into his NFL career, we're going to teach him that entirely different skill set? No way, no how is DJ going to be an OLB in a 3-4.

He'll do well as an ILB. That's a position that will require him to have a lot of coverage responsibility and the great thing is, you can put him at an ILB position that requires him to do a lot of coverage, but doesn't ask him to do a lot of run support.

beach tribe
03-10-2009, 06:07 AM
The way Tamba gets blown off the ball in the run game, 20lbs, isn't going to do shit for him going straight up on a RT. I think he will be back up LOLB. Rotating with Vrabel.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-10-2009, 06:59 AM
Whoa, I'm surprised more people haven't jumped onto this.

DJ would make a horrible OLB. OLBs in a 3-4 are usually around 260 lbs. And DJ's best strength is coverage and you're putting him in a position where pass rushing should be your greatest strength? Why would you do that? DJ's an adequate pass rusher at best. In a 3-4, he'd be asked on some downs to put his hand on the ground and rush the passer as if he was an edge rusher. So a few years into his NFL career, we're going to teach him that entirely different skill set? No way, no how is DJ going to be an OLB in a 3-4.

He'll do well as an ILB. That's a position that will require him to have a lot of coverage responsibility and the great thing is, you can put him at an ILB position that requires him to do a lot of coverage, but doesn't ask him to do a lot of run support.

Both ILB's are responsible for run support, both are required to cover. And, I think DJ will have his best year in this defense. The problem is that I can't see the Chiefs extending him long term at a high dollar amount.

He isn't a great outside pass rusher, and he has been given the opportunity while in KC. The REASON he isn't good is that he struggles to shed blocks. He struggles playing in a phone booth. His best attribute is his play in space. And, EVEN then he sometimes has trouble breaking down the ball carrier and making the tackle.

There is no way that DJ can play OLB in a 3-4. By playing the middle of the field, he will be protected and have to take on fewer blockers than he had to as the OLB last year.

And, if Curry is the other guy in there with him, the Chiefs are going to have two guys that can run with any running back, any TE, and many WR's. They are going to have two guys that can cover the entire field sideline to sideline.

DJ would often over pursue the play. I think DJ and Pollard both looked worse at times because they were trying to compensate for other players around them instead of just playing their responsibilities. If the Chiefs draft Curry, I think DJ will find out real quick that he can depend on Curry, and he won't be over pursuing as many plays.

With the kind of numbers that I think DJ could have this year, he may get serious pro bowl consideration. There are a TON of good linebackers though, and many with bigger names.... so it would be hard to break through.... but I imagine he will be considered to be one of the better players at the position by the end of the season.

Sully
03-10-2009, 07:06 AM
Looking at the players we have today, and making a decision on the defensive system we are going to run is, IMO, silly.

3/4 or more of these "players" will be gone in 2 years.

If we had some bona fide stars, it'd be a different argument. But, for now, there's no reason for a new GM and coach to handcuff himself to any of these guys.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-10-2009, 07:49 AM
Looking at the players we have today, and making a decision on the defensive system we are going to run is, IMO, silly.

3/4 or more of these "players" will be gone in 2 years.

If we had some bona fide stars, it'd be a different argument. But, for now, there's no reason for a new GM and coach to handcuff himself to any of these guys.

Well, I think the coaches are working to try to blend what they want with what we have for the moment. But, I still think that the Chiefs are going to the 3-4, and I think it actually fits guys like DJ, Hali and Pollard better.

Sully
03-10-2009, 07:54 AM
Well, I think the coaches are working to try to blend what they want with what we have for the moment. But, I still think that the Chiefs are going to the 3-4, and I think it actually fits guys like DJ, Hali and Pollard better.

If they do what the Pats have done, and I think it's reasonable to assume that, then it will be a hybrid of sorts. Mainly 4-man stuff for nickel, and change it up otherwise.

I'd like us to get someone really creative to do some of the more exotic fronts I've seen from NE the past few years.

I'm still holding out hope that Crennell is going to be on this staff.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-10-2009, 08:26 AM
If they do what the Pats have done, and I think it's reasonable to assume that, then it will be a hybrid of sorts. Mainly 4-man stuff for nickel, and change it up otherwise.

I'd like us to get someone really creative to do some of the more exotic fronts I've seen from NE the past few years.

I'm still holding out hope that Crennell is going to be on this staff.

I am not a huge fan of Crennell. Out of his five years as a DC in the NFL, his defense ranked bottom 10 of the NFL three times. Under Bill Belichick, the first two years were bottom 10. The last two years were top ten, but I don't think we can forget that he was under Bill Belichick.

In Cleveland as head coach for five years, his defenses were in the bottom ten four times, I think bottom five twice, I know for sure once. And, the highest defensive ranking in Cleveland was his first year at 16th.

FAX
03-10-2009, 08:39 AM
Well, I think the coaches are working to try to blend what they want with what we have for the moment. But, I still think that the Chiefs are going to the 3-4, and I think it actually fits guys like DJ, Hali and Pollard better.

It's okay, peep. You can tell me. You suffer from multiple personality disorder, correct? There's Mr. SensibleChiefsfan, then there's also Mr. DelusionalHalfCrazyMostlyIrrationalAndSeverelyMentallyChallengedChiefsfan too, right?

FAX

bowener
03-10-2009, 10:16 AM
There's a chance (and a pretty good one, too) that we have more raw talent on the field than some peeps realize. With Herm and Gunther out of the equation, maybe these guys can do more than we think. I honestly believe that DJ and Hali have both been severely coached down. Dorsey too, probably - although he's had far less exposure to those career killers.

FAX

There can be no truer statement.

Most here know how inept our previous coaching staffs were, especially the D staffs (for a decade now). Now that we have real honest-to-god coaches for our players, we may see them all grow out of their sophomore slumps (some have lasted 3 years or so), and show some productivity on the field. Hell, they may even take pride in their work again!

I am beginning to think that we are a base 4-3 team, with Vrabel lining up as the RDE for pass rushing purposes.

The benefit being that next to him will be Tank or Dorsey, and McBride (a true 3-4 DE) at the other end. So, when needed, Vrabel can drop back just like a 34 OLB might, effectively giving us (upon shifting over) and 34 alignment with our suspected players up front.

So, somewhat similar to what happens down in Arizona, or even in NE, they do love their versatility (yes, that means they like going both ways on D).

chiefzilla1501
03-10-2009, 10:34 AM
Both ILB's are responsible for run support, both are required to cover. And, I think DJ will have his best year in this defense. The problem is that I can't see the Chiefs extending him long term at a high dollar amount.

He isn't a great outside pass rusher, and he has been given the opportunity while in KC. The REASON he isn't good is that he struggles to shed blocks. He struggles playing in a phone booth. His best attribute is his play in space. And, EVEN then he sometimes has trouble breaking down the ball carrier and making the tackle.

There is no way that DJ can play OLB in a 3-4. By playing the middle of the field, he will be protected and have to take on fewer blockers than he had to as the OLB last year.

And, if Curry is the other guy in there with him, the Chiefs are going to have two guys that can run with any running back, any TE, and many WR's. They are going to have two guys that can cover the entire field sideline to sideline.

DJ would often over pursue the play. I think DJ and Pollard both looked worse at times because they were trying to compensate for other players around them instead of just playing their responsibilities. If the Chiefs draft Curry, I think DJ will find out real quick that he can depend on Curry, and he won't be over pursuing as many plays.

With the kind of numbers that I think DJ could have this year, he may get serious pro bowl consideration. There are a TON of good linebackers though, and many with bigger names.... so it would be hard to break through.... but I imagine he will be considered to be one of the better players at the position by the end of the season.

As ILBs, it's easier to have one-dimensional backers. Donnie Edwards looked awesome as an ILB for San Diego because they didn't require him to be that great at stopping the run. Zach Thomas looked very good in Dallas as well, even though he's known to be a little soft against the run. DJ isn't horrible at run support, but it's clearly not his strength. The reason why I don't think Curry is worth the #3 pick is that with DJ being the cover guy, Curry's coverage skills don't add a ton of additional value to the LB corps. We can line up a run specialist and arguably a guy like Rey Maualuga is better against the run than a guy like Curry. Curry's strength is his versatility and you don't need that on the inside. I would argue that in the specialized role of run support, Maualuga is better than Curry. But it doesn't have to be Maualuga. It can also be a LB that you rated as very aggressive, but not particularly smart that you find in the 2nd or 3rd round. Kendrell Bell was a stud in a 3-4, but a moron in the 4-3. So why use a #3 pick when you can get a lower round pick who can look like a star in this defense?

I'm just not high on a Curry pick. I think it's a reach given the importance of the ILB position in a 3-4 and I think it's a tremendous waste of his talents.