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BostonTim
02-27-2009, 08:00 PM
HTTP://BLOGS.NBCSPORTS.COM/HOME/

QUIET ON THE PATS-KC FRONT; COULD MEAN CASSEL'S INVOLVED
Posted by Tom Curran: Friday, February 27, 2009 4:10 PM
It smells like there might be a lot more to the Mike Vrabel to the Chiefs deal than simply a benign "undisclosed" draft pick.
New England is locked up tight as a drum this afternoon. There is no conversation going out which is a sure harbinger that there are bigger dominoes wobbling.
My speculation? Since Vrabel is only in KC and his acquisition hasn't been officially declared, he is merely a sidebar in the deal. The holdup - and silence - is being caused by something else that's taking place and my guess is that the something else is negotiations between Matt Cassel's agent David Dunn and the Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
Cassel, of course, is the franchised Patriots quarterback who's due to make $14.6 million this year if he stays with the Patriots. If New England deals Cassel, he comes off their books, clearing cap space.
And that has me thinking the undisclosed pick is the third overall pick in this draft.
So it may well be Cassel and Vrabel to the Chiefs for the third overall pick and - likely - another later round pick. The financial end of this is what makes it a solid deal for the Pats. Between Cassel and Vrabel, there's almost $20 million in cap space getting cleared. Vrabel would have been a free agent after this year so the Pats are going to get something for him they wouldn't have otherwise.
Wouldn't the Pats want to avoid the third overall pick and the money outlay for an unproven player that comes with it? Not necessarily. They will still win financially in 2009 even adding the third overall pick because of the money they clear with Vrabel and Cassel leaving. And they'll have a good player from that spot going forward (presumably).
So who replaces Vrabel? Hmmmm. The Patriots liked Jonathan Vilma coming out of Miami. He's on the market. And so is Ray Lewis. Would they be fits at outside linebacker where Vrabel played predominantly? It will be interesting to see. And to see if this goes down as I'm suspecting

If this is up elsewhere, I apologize you got a lot of long threads to wade through here today.

PS Florio has crashed his site and is temporarily posting at above adress, too.

Cheers, BostonTim

Mecca
02-27-2009, 08:03 PM
Vilma resigned with the Saints I believe so that part is a bit behind.

BostonTim
02-27-2009, 08:05 PM
Vilma resigned with the Saints I believe so that part is a bit behind.
Thanks. Yes he has. But there's still Lewis possibly and the "rich" draft thay talk about.

It's gonna be interesting for the next few days I figure.

Cheers, BostonTim

TRR
02-27-2009, 08:06 PM
I'm not sure how I would feel about giving up the third overall pick for Cassell and Vrabel. I'm not hugely sold on Sanchez or Stafford. Aaron Curry is the safest pick, but is he a top 5 pick? Was he any better in college than Derrick Johnson? So that side of me says I would be ok with it...

:)

BradyFTW!
02-27-2009, 08:07 PM
This is the same guy who said that Brady was likely to miss all of next season, which he's since had to eat crow about. Don't let him fool you: he has no idea what's going on in the Pats' FO.

orange
02-27-2009, 08:08 PM
So who replaces Vrabel?

Aaron Curry!

MIAdragon
02-27-2009, 08:09 PM
This is the same guy who said that Brady was likely to miss all of next season, which he's since had to eat crow about. Don't let him fool you: he has no idea what's going on in the Pats' FO.

Ok, thanks.

BostonTim
02-27-2009, 08:16 PM
This is the same guy who said that Brady was likely to miss all of next season, which he's since had to eat crow about. Don't let him fool you: he has no idea what's going on in the Pats' FO.Of course he doesn't. I posted it simply because it's there. I labeled it speculation and I agree with you that that's all it is. All these guys are trying to predict what's gonna happen. If they get one right they can play "I told you so".

Pull hair or enjoy or whatever. My theory is, it's all good.

Cheers

BradyFTW!
02-27-2009, 08:18 PM
Of course he doesn't. I posted it simply because it's there. I labeled it speculation and I agree with you that that's all it is. All these guys are trying to predict what' gonna happen. If they get one right they can play "I told you so".

Pull hair or enjoy or whatever. my theory is, it's all good.

Cheers

Didn't mean it as an attack on you or the post or anything. Just thought that it would be best to fill the board in with Curran's recent history with the Pats before they go jumping off any bridges :P

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 08:22 PM
If KC gives up the 3rd on Cassel, I'm going to be hard as shit on him. I mean he better produce like a motherfuckin HOFer period.

Tylerthigpen!1!
02-27-2009, 08:55 PM
i would shit my pants, fedex them to pioli, then burn his house down if we gave our 3rd overall pick for vrabel and cassel

doomy3
02-27-2009, 09:03 PM
If KC gives up the 3rd on Cassel, I'm going to be hard as shit on him. I mean he better produce like a mother****in HOFer period.

So, is it safe to assume that if the Chiefs draft Sanchez at #3, you would also expect him to produce like a motherfuckin HOFer?

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 09:05 PM
If KC gives up the 3rd on Cassel, I'm going to be hard as shit on him. I mean he better produce like a mother****in HOFer period.

Yeah, because all 3rd picks in the draft are HOF'ers.

I'm not for getting Cassel here, but I'm also not 100% against it like he's the damn anti-christ.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 09:06 PM
i would shit my pants, fedex them to pioli, then burn his house down if we gave our 3rd overall pick for vrabel and cassel

If we got the 22 back and a 3rd or 4th rounder, I wouldn't be too upset.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 09:10 PM
Yeah, because all 3rd picks in the draft are HOF'ers.

I'm not for getting Cassel here, but I'm also not 100% against it like he's the damn anti-christ.

For that yeah, shit for a 3rd overall pick you expect all-world badass SOBs. If not you got to fuckin draggin ass for expectations.

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 09:10 PM
Yeah, because all 3rd picks in the draft are HOF'ers.

I'm not for getting Cassel here, but I'm also not 100% against it like he's the damn anti-christ.

For the 3rd pick in the draft? A guy that was drafted in the 7th round, was a backup QB at USC, led the previously undefeated Patriots to an 11-5 record, with the easiest schedule in the league? If this happens, I am going to go fucking bananas.

doomy3
02-27-2009, 09:12 PM
For that yeah, shit for a 3rd overall pick you expect all-world badass SOBs. If not you got to ****in draggin ass for expectations.

So again, if we pick Sanchez at 3, you expect him to be a Hall of Famer too, right?

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 09:13 PM
So again, if we pick Sanchez at 3, you expect him to be a Hall of Famer too, right?

perennial all-pro, game changer and getting KC to the championship game on his own steam yeah you could say that.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 09:15 PM
For the 3rd pick in the draft? A guy that was drafted in the 7th round, was a backup QB at USC, led the previously undefeated Patriots to an 11-5 record, with the easiest schedule in the league? If this happens, I am going to go ****ing bananas.

So where he was drafted, and the fact he played behind Carson Palmer some how have a factor in his current value?

I don't agree that he's worth the 3rd overall pick, but I'd be willing to give him a shot to see how he can perform - which is a lot more than some people will do around here.

I also am not going to go batshit crazy about these things until how I see all of the puzzle come together.

doomy3
02-27-2009, 09:15 PM
perennial all-pro, game changer yeah you could say that.

wow, there was a thread the other day that the "Pro Sanchez" crowd was saying that the expectations would be too high for him from those of us who aren't thrilled about drafting him there.

If your HOF expectations are any sort of preview for what will be expected on a QB who is drafted here, then this could get ugly.

doomy3
02-27-2009, 09:16 PM
I would imagine that if Cassel and Sanchez would have played at USC during the same time frame, Cassel would have been the one playing.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 09:17 PM
If your HOF expectations are any sort of preview for what will be expected on a QB who is drafted here, then this could get ugly.

that's what's expected out of type 5 picks, hell look how everyone anointed Matt Ryan as the second coming.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 09:17 PM
I would imagine that if Cassel and Sanchez would have played at USC during the same time frame, Cassel would have been the one playing.

ROFL

doomy3
02-27-2009, 09:17 PM
ROFL

What's so funny?

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 09:18 PM
ROFL

I don't know why this is so funny.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 09:18 PM
that's what's expected out of type 5 picks, hell look how everyone anointed Matt Ryan as the second coming.

Sorry - I don't expect sure fire HOF players with top 5 picks.

You are just setting the stage for failure.

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 09:19 PM
So where he was drafted, and the fact he played behind Carson Palmer some how have a factor in his current value?

I don't agree that he's worth the 3rd overall pick, but I'd be willing to give him a shot to see how he can perform - which is a lot more than some people will do around here.

I also am not going to go batshit crazy about these things until how I see all of the puzzle come together.

If it's our 2nd round pick, I can live with it. I think it's still over paying for him, but it's reasonable I guess. IMO though, the 3rd pick in the draft would be a gift wrapped parting gift for the Pats.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 09:20 PM
What's so funny?



Okay the guy couldn't beatout Leinart for the spot, and yet Sanchez has the better intangibles than Leinart since he has his head on straight with better athletic ability.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 09:20 PM
If it's our 2nd round pick, I can live with it. I think it's still over paying for him, but it's reasonable I guess. IMO though, the 3rd pick in the draft would be a gift wrapped parting gift for the Pats.

If they went down from 3 to 22, would that be awful?

The only reason I wouldn't care too much about that is because I think this is the worst top prospect draft class than I've seen in a long time.

doomy3
02-27-2009, 09:21 PM
ROFL

It has been talked about in several articles that Cassel was favored by many at USC over Matt Leinart by everyone but Carrol. Of course Leinart won the Heisman. The person that blocked Sanchez? John David Booty. Good thing he graduated, otherwise Sanchez would be Matt Cassel, but 2 inches shorter, and a Heisman winner wasn't blocking him.

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 09:21 PM
Okay the guy couldn't beatout Leinart for the spot, and yet Sanchez has the better intangibles than Leinart since he has his head on straight with better athletic ability.

That's the deal. He played behind Palmer and Leinart. Would you trade the 3 overall for Leinart? What more has Cassel proven than Leinart has? I'll bet NE wins 13 games last year with Leinart at QB.

doomy3
02-27-2009, 09:22 PM
Okay the guy couldn't beatout Leinart for the spot, and yet Sanchez has the better intangibles than Leinart since he has his head on straight with better athletic ability.

Leinart was a Heisman Trophy winner. And Carrol was the reason Cassel didn't start over him. Who exactly did Sanchez have to beat out?

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 09:22 PM
If they went down from 3 to 22, would that be awful?

The only reason I wouldn't care too much about that is because I think this is the worst top prospect draft class than I've seen in a long time.

I don't disagree with this being a terrible top ten draft. I mean fucking terrible. But honestly, I'll take Aaron Curry over Cassel. JMO. But I'd rather have Sanchez than any of them.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 09:23 PM
Okay the guy couldn't beatout Leinart for the spot, and yet Sanchez has the better intangibles than Leinart since he has his head on straight with better athletic ability.

Matt Leinart coming out of college had just about ever accolade you want out of a QB. Far more than Sanchez had coming out.

You just don't know how things will play out.

Stop talking like Mark Sanchez is the next guaranteed coming of christ. I like Sanchez, but this reeks of the bandwagon mentality around here anymore.

doomy3
02-27-2009, 09:24 PM
ROFL

Of course you're also the same person who thinks Mark Sanchez has the same arm strength as Peyton Manning like you posted earlier.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 09:25 PM
That's the deal. He played behind Palmer and Leinart. Would you trade the 3 overall for Leinart? What more has Cassel proven than Leinart has? I'll bet NE wins 13 games last year with Leinart at QB.

Leinart had just as good of options as Cassel had last year, if not better, and he still sucked.

The thing I enjoyed about Cassel is that he was throw into a huge spot, with a ton of pressure, and got better every week.

Yeah, he had Moss and Welker to help out, but he made progress all year.

el borracho
02-27-2009, 09:26 PM
I will positively not watch next season if we trade the 3rd overall pick for Cassel. This is too horrible to even think about.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 09:26 PM
Matt Leinart coming out of college had just about ever accolade you want out of a QB. Far more than Sanchez had coming out.


Are you saying by this token that Andre Ware should be in the pro football HOF then?

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 09:30 PM
Leinart had just as good of options as Cassel had last year, if not better, and he still sucked.

The thing I enjoyed about Cassel is that he was throw into a huge spot, with a ton of pressure, and got better every week.

Yeah, he had Moss and Welker to help out, but he made progress all year.

I will say that Cassel did get better every single week. I just think 3, or even 3 for 23 is gross for a guy that led a team to 5 games worse than they were the year before with such an easy schedule. The Chiefs could've easily beaten them in week 1. And we all know how good those guys were.

Yeah, I like Sanchez. But I know damn well that whether we start Cassel, Thigpen, Sanchez, or Stafford, it's one big crap shoot where we're hoping not to roll snake eyes.

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 09:30 PM
I will positively not watch next season if we trade the 3rd overall pick for Cassel. This is too horrible to even think about.

I usually laugh at these statements, but I think I might be with you on this one.

BostonTim
02-27-2009, 09:36 PM
I will positively not watch next season if we trade the 3rd overall pick for Cassel. This is too horrible to even think about.Just speculatin' some more here. Lets say they did it. And Let's say Cassel won the first game. Would you watch the second?

No? How about after 2-0? 3-0? 15-0?

It's ok to be mad and dissapointed and disagree and all that. Is it necessary to be ridiculous?

My Mantra, with apologies to John Lennon:

All we are saying is give Pioli a chance.

Cheers, BostonTim

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 09:37 PM
I will say that Cassel did get better every single week. I just think 3, or even 3 for 23 is gross for a guy that led a team to 5 games worse than they were the year before with such an easy schedule. The Chiefs could've easily beaten them in week 1. And we all know how good those guys were.

Yeah, I like Sanchez. But I know damn well that whether we start Cassel, Thigpen, Sanchez, or Stafford, it's one big crap shoot where we're hoping not to roll snake eyes.

So since the Patriots were 18-0, the expectations for Cassel were to achieve the same success?

That's just an unrealistic measuring stick for someone who was basically starting his first game since high school. Yes, the Chiefs could have beaten them. They didn't. I just don't see what this has to do with anything pertaining to Cassel's value.

Easy schedule or not, he made progress.

Chiefnj2
02-27-2009, 09:37 PM
Boston Tim,

A question for you. Why did Cassel get sacked so many times last year? Does he hold the ball too long or was NE having OL problems?

Thanks.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 09:38 PM
Boston Tim,

A question for you. Why did Cassel get sacked so many times last year? Does he hold the ball too long or was NE having OL problems?

Thanks.

That's one concern I have with him. He does hold the ball way too long.

el borracho
02-27-2009, 09:43 PM
15-0? The Chiefs will be lucky to win 15 games in the next two years combined. 15-0 is just plain crazy talk. You might as well ask, "What if a leprechaun rode his unicorn down a rainbow into your backyard... then would you believe in Santa Claus?"

BostonTim
02-27-2009, 09:44 PM
Boston Tim,

A question for you. Why did Cassel get sacked so many times last year? Does he hold the ball too long or was NE having OL problems?

Thanks.
For one, he got the rookie treatment. Most teams decided to use a lot of pressure. Also early on he did hold the ball to long, and also didn't maintain throwing position well under pressure. Also the O-line really was a bit disappointing at times and fought through their fair share of injuries.

As he progressed, the sack rate dropped dramatically. By the end of the schedule his sacks were 2-3 game, not 5-6.

All look for some better numbers on This.

Cheers, BostonTim

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 09:47 PM
So since the Patriots were 18-0, the expectations for Cassel were to achieve the same success?

That's just an unrealistic measuring stick for someone who was basically starting his first game since high school. Yes, the Chiefs could have beaten them. They didn't. I just don't see what this has to do with anything pertaining to Cassel's value.

Easy schedule or not, he made progress.

Enough to give up #3? I know 18-0 was unrealistic. But 11-5 against teams with a combined .387 winning percentage makes that much less impressive.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 09:49 PM
Enough to give up #3? I know 18-0 was unrealistic. But 11-5 against teams with a combined .387 winning percentage makes that much less impressive.

I don't know why we are even criticizing an 11-5 record. 3 of the teams he lost to were playoff teams.

Regardless of who you play, I'll take an 11-5 record every day of the week.

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 09:52 PM
I don't know why we are even criticizing an 11-5 record. 3 of the teams he lost to were playoff teams.

Regardless of who you play, I'll take an 11-5 record every day of the week.

Normally you never would. But when that 11-5 team has the easiest schedule in the league and went undefeated the year before and only really changed 1 position. The guy at that position doesn't look so good. I know Tom Brady is a stud, but seriously, NE has talent everywhere. I can live with it if it's anything but the 3rd pick in the draft.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 09:56 PM
Normally you never would. But when that 11-5 team has the easiest schedule in the league and went undefeated the year before and only really changed 1 position. The guy at that position doesn't look so good. I know Tom Brady is a stud, but seriously, NE has talent everywhere. I can live with it if it's anything but the 3rd pick in the draft.

They changed a ton of positions. Asante Samuel was gone. Harrison went out for the season. They started freaking Benjarvis Green-Ellis at RB. Adalius Thomas was also injured I believe.

And oh yea, the position that changed was the best player in the league.

If you lose 3 players with the talent of those 3, it's a minor miracle to even finish 11-5.

DaneMcCloud
02-27-2009, 09:57 PM
Normally you never would. But when that 11-5 team has the easiest schedule in the league and went undefeated the year before and only really changed 1 position. The guy at that position doesn't look so good. I know Tom Brady is a stud, but seriously, NE has talent everywhere. I can live with it if it's anything but the 3rd pick in the draft.

If it really happens, we better either swap first round picks or second round picks.

Anything more is way too much, IMO.

Actually, that may be way too much.

I guess I'm not a fan.

BradyFTW!
02-27-2009, 09:58 PM
Normally you never would. But when that 11-5 team has the easiest schedule in the league and went undefeated the year before and only really changed 1 position. The guy at that position doesn't look so good. I know Tom Brady is a stud, but seriously, NE has talent everywhere. I can live with it if it's anything but the 3rd pick in the draft.

Pats also lost Asante Samuel to free agency and Rodney Harrison and Adalius Thomas to season-ending injuries, which really hurt the defense. By the end of the year they were starting a 4th round draft pick (Wilhite, who's actually alright) at CB, because Deltha O'Neal was just terrible. So yeah, not going 16-0 again was a combination of less luck, a weakened pass rush and secondary (which is even worse in combination), and the fact that Cassel, as a first-year starter, wasn't Tom Brady.

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 10:02 PM
They changed a ton of positions. Asante Samuel was gone. Harrison went out for the season. They started freaking Benjarvis Green-Ellis at RB. Adalius Thomas was also injured I believe.

And oh yea, the position that changed was the best player in the league.

If you lose 3 players with the talent of those 3, it's a minor miracle to even finish 11-5.

Their defense went from 4 to 10 overall. They went from a top 5 D to a top 10 D with a much easier schedule. I can see where you're coming from, but even at 10 that's a steep drop. I'm not sure about best player in the league either. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 10:03 PM
If it really happens, we better either swap first round picks or second round picks.

Anything more is way too much, IMO.

Actually, that may be way too much.

I guess I'm not a fan.

I'm definitely not a fan.

doomy3
02-27-2009, 10:09 PM
Their defense went from 4 to 10 overall. They went from a top 5 D to a top 10 D with a much easier schedule. I can see where you're coming from, but even at 10 that's a steep drop. I'm not sure about best player in the league either. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

And they were still number 8 in offense too. Plus they lost their top 2 RBs for a lot of the year.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 10:21 PM
Their defense went from 4 to 10 overall. They went from a top 5 D to a top 10 D with a much easier schedule. I can see where you're coming from, but even at 10 that's a steep drop. I'm not sure about best player in the league either. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

You don't think Tom Brady was the best player in the league heading into last year?

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 10:26 PM
You don't think Tom Brady was the best player in the league heading into last year?

No. I think he had some damn fine talent around him that made his skill set appear better than it already was. Which is definitely top 5, maybe top 3 to begin with. What do you think our record would be if Tom QB'd the Chiefs last year? I think Peyton would have given us a better record.

Chiefaholic
02-27-2009, 10:27 PM
If Cassel is in the plans, a trade of 2nds would be all I offer. There's a hell of a lot of talent in this draft. And I can't imagine suffering through a shit year like the last w/o getting a kick ass rookie prospect in return. The 3rd BETTER stay with KC unless we trade down and get sufficient compensation.

BradyFTW!
02-27-2009, 10:29 PM
Their defense went from 4 to 10 overall. They went from a top 5 D to a top 10 D with a much easier schedule. I can see where you're coming from, but even at 10 that's a steep drop. I'm not sure about best player in the league either. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Pats didn't have a top 10 D last year. They played some bad offenses, and by the end of the season were playing games in snow wind so hard that you couldn't throw into it, and that helped out the rankings. As a team, they were excellent at stopping the run, and legitimately bad in the red zone and on third down. The defense singlehandedly lost two games (second Jets game and Colts).

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 10:31 PM
Pats didn't have a top 10 D last year. They played some bad offenses, and by the end of the season were playing games in snow wind so hard that you couldn't throw into it, and that helped out the rankings. As a team, they were excellent at stopping the run, and legitimately bad in the red zone and on third down. The defense singlehandedly lost two games (second Jets game and Colts).

The 3rd pick in the draft for Matt fucking Cassel is a Pats fan's wet dream. You know it and I know it.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 10:35 PM
No. I think he had some damn fine talent around him that made his skill set appear better than it already was. Which is definitely top 5, maybe top 3 to begin with. What do you think our record would be if Tom QB'd the Chiefs last year? I think Peyton would have given us a better record.

You act like he had Moss and Welker in his entire career.

He won 2 SBs with David Givens and Troy Brown as his primary WRs.

Tom Brady is easily the best player in the NFL.

Fruit Ninja
02-27-2009, 10:36 PM
We may swap picks. If that happens, i am fine. I dont think we will jsut give up the 3rd pick for just him.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 10:37 PM
We may swap picks. If that happens, i am fine. I dont think we will jsut give up the 3rd pick for just him.

That's a shit load of leeway in favor of the Patriots, I wouldn't touch Cassel unless they lower it to a mid-round pick.

BostonTim
02-27-2009, 10:40 PM
15-0? The Chiefs will be lucky to win 15 games in the next two years combined. 15-0 is just plain crazy talk. You might as well ask, "What if a leprechaun rode his unicorn down a rainbow into your backyard... then would you believe in Santa Claus?"No need to be disengenuous here. I know that you know what I mean. You know I'm NOT saying they will win 15 straight. I'm saying if Cassel works out - YOU WILL WATCH. You won't cut off your nose to spite your face.


Cheers, BostonTim

doomy3
02-27-2009, 10:40 PM
That's a shit load of leeway in favor of the Patriots, I wouldn't touch Cassel unless they lower it to a mid-round pick.

But you're hell-bent on taking Mark Sanchez. I just don't understand this.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 10:42 PM
But you're hell-bent on taking Mark Sanchez. I just don't understand this.



Wrong, I want to develop a stud prospect( like Clark has said multiple times
), and not a store bought one year wonder.

BostonTim
02-27-2009, 10:44 PM
Boston Tim,

A question for you. Why did Cassel get sacked so many times last year? Does he hold the ball too long or was NE having OL problems?

Thanks.Follow-up:

First 7 games Pats allowed 29 Sacks (4.1/game)
Last 9 games Pats allowed 19 Sacks (2.1/ game)


Once Cassel got his sea legs, sacks were a minor issue.

Cheers, BostonTim

doomy3
02-27-2009, 10:47 PM
What has Sanchez shown that he has the Cassel doesn't? This is an honest question. They both basically have one year playing experience. 16 games to 16 games. What did Sanchez show in his 16 games against inferior competition that Cassel didn't show?

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 10:52 PM
What has Sanchez shown that he has the Cassel doesn't? This is an honest question. They both basically have one year playing experience. 16 games to 16 games. What did Sanchez show in his 16 games against inferior competition that Cassel didn't show?

It just doesn't make any sense. All of the things he's saying about Cassel easily applies to Sanchez as well.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 10:53 PM
What has Sanchez shown that he has the Cassel doesn't? This is an honest question. They both basically have one year playing experience. 16 games to 16 games. What did Sanchez show in his 16 games against inferior competition that Cassel didn't show?

I love it that your ignoring the possibility that Stafford is a possible option too. If you want to play this little witchhunt about Sanchez-backers which it isn't the case with me I want the best QB prospect possible if Stafford's available I want that cat.

Anyway, Sanchez is a natural leader, he has pinpoint precision cameback from adversity after that horrible Oregan State game.


You want to talk about Stafford next?

doomy3
02-27-2009, 10:57 PM
I love it that your ignoring the possibility that Stafford is a possible option too. If you want to play this little witchhunt about Sanchez-backers which it isn't the case with me I want the best QB prospect possible if Stafford's available I want that cat.

Anyway, Sanchez is a natural leader, he has pinpoint precision cameback from adversity after that horrible Oregan State game.


You want to talk about Stafford next?

If Stafford is available, I want him too. I agree he is a better prospect, however, I like most think he will be gone by 3. If that is the case, I would be fine with Cassel, especially if we are flipping picks.

If it is between getting to keep a pick at 23 in the first and get Cassel or picking Sanchez at 3, I will choose the former.

Sanchez has been so built up on this board it's unreal, while Cassel gets undervalued. IMO they show very similar characteristics, Cassel is 2" taller, only 26 and has a year experience in the NFL as opposed to one year experience playing at USC.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 11:01 PM
I love it that your ignoring the possibility that Stafford is a possible option too. If you want to play this little witchhunt about Sanchez-backers which it isn't the case with me I want the best QB prospect possible if Stafford's available I want that cat.

Anyway, Sanchez is a natural leader, he has pinpoint precision cameback from adversity after that horrible Oregan State game.


You want to talk about Stafford next?

Sure, throw Stafford into the mix.

What adversity did he come back from?

You want to talk like Sanchez had the weight of the world on his shoulders due to a college loss. Yet, you seem to think it's just a cake walk to replace the best player in the league, on the best team in the league when you haven't started a game since high school.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 11:17 PM
Sure, throw Stafford into the mix.

What adversity did he come back from?


That kid was working with No O-line, and had shit for WRs outside of A.J. Green


You want to talk like Sanchez had the weight of the world on his shoulders due to a college loss. Yet, you seem to think it's just a cake walk to replace the best player in the league, on the best team in the league when you haven't started a game since high school.



Cassel was playing an offense that the car equivalent of a Rolls Royce. With Randy Moss and company to catch his passes , he wasn't in the worse situation to be a QB in.

Sanchez, flat-out couldn't get on a cold streak he has backups with talent that would dethrone him in an instant. Hell being the starting QB for USC has the same pressure that the NFL overtakes due tio the national exposure. When Notre Dame was supposedly the holy ground for QBs with the TV contract with NBC Ron Powlus couldn't handle the pressure and he crumbled.

doomy3
02-27-2009, 11:20 PM
That kid was working with No O-line, and had shit for WRs outside of A.J. Green





Cassel was playing an offense that the car equivalent of a Rolls Royce. With Randy Moss and company to catch his passes , he wasn't in the worse situation to be a QB in.

Sanchez, flat-out couldn't get on a cold streak he has backups with talent that would dethrone him in an instant. Hell being the starting QB for USC has the same pressure that the NFL overtakes due tio the national exposure. When Notre Dame was supposedly the holy ground for QBs with the TV contract with NBC Ron Powlus couldn't handle the pressure and he crumbled.

This just flat out isn't true. Why was Carrol so upset about losing him this year then?

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 11:25 PM
This just flat out isn't true. Why was Carrol so upset about losing him this year then?

Easy, because of continuity, Barkley who's supposedly like Steve Young or to a lesser extent Mark Brunell prospect is a freshmen who was the 2nd string backup, and Mustain the other Junior has the talent but not the fire to the starter from what I read.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 11:25 PM
That kid was working with No O-line, and had shit for WRs outside of A.J. Green





Cassel was playing an offense that the car equivalent of a Rolls Royce. With Randy Moss and company to catch his passes , he wasn't in the worse situation to be a QB in.

Sanchez, flat-out couldn't get on a cold streak he has backups with talent that would dethrone him in an instant. Hell being the starting QB for USC has the same pressure that the NFL overtakes due tio the national exposure. When Notre Dame was supposedly the holy ground for QBs with the TV contract with NBC Ron Powlus couldn't handle the pressure and he crumbled.

I get it. When Cassel does something, it's no big deal.

When Sanchez does, he's walking on water.

I'm done debating this back and forth.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 11:27 PM
I get it. When Cassel does something, it's no big deal.

When Sanchez does, he's walking on water.


Damn right, and don't forget that either ROFL

doomy3
02-27-2009, 11:29 PM
Easy, because of continuity, Barkley who's supposedly like Steve Young or to a lesser extent Mark Brunell prospect is a freshmen who was the 2nd string backup, and Mustain the other Junior has the talent but not the fire to the starter from what I read.

You must realize that Barkley will be a freshman next year then, and he wasn't on the team this year?

DrRyan
02-27-2009, 11:35 PM
If KC gives up the 3rd on Cassel, I'm going to be hard as shit on him. I mean he better produce like a mother****in HOFer period.

By that rationale, if we keep our #3 pick(which I assume we will and this rumor is BS) he had better be a future HOFer as well then right? What if Cassel just happens to go on and have a better pro career than Sanchez and/or Stafford? I would say if that were the case, it would have been a good trade.

I do not see them trading #3 for Cassel, but if they did saying the trade is a bust unless Cassel is a HOF QB period, is a pretty ridiculous statement.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 11:37 PM
You must realize that Barkley will be a freshman next year then, and he wasn't on the team this year?

That's right, I meant Corp the kid is very talented bluechipper too

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 11:39 PM
By that rationale, if we keep our #3 pick(which I assume we will and this rumor is BS) he had better be a future HOFer as well then right?



If one is drafting a Franchise QB, he better be up there or the team is up shit creek.

DrRyan
02-27-2009, 11:49 PM
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/positions.html

Get real Tribal, there are 23 modern era QBs in the hall of fame. You are saying if you pick a QB at #3 and don't get one of those guys you team is ****ed. I think you are being a very over dramatic with that stance. If we draft Stafford or Sanchez at #3, they could absolutely be a success w/o ending up in the HOF. I would think this line of thinking would talk almost anyone out of taking either of the two at #3.

HOF at #3 or bust!ROFL

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2009, 11:52 PM
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/positions.html

Get real Tribal, there are 23 modern era QBs in the hall of fame. You are saying if you pick a QB at #3 and don't get one of those guys you team is ****ed.





Elway, Manning,Aikman

yep, does those names ring any bells

DrRyan
02-28-2009, 12:01 AM
Elway, Manning,Aikman

yep, does those names ring any bells

Those names does ring bells.

But saying unless the #3 pick is a HOFer the pick is a bust is crazy. It is possible that there may be not one HOFer in this class. The player taken at #3 could be a very good or great player and not make it to Canton. If this happens, by using your logic, it was still an awful pick. I think all this draft talk is clouding your thinking.

BradyFTW!
02-28-2009, 12:07 AM
The 3rd pick in the draft for Matt ****ing Cassel is a Pats fan's wet dream. You know it and I know it.

The Pats will get a first rounder for him; not a huge deal to me where it is. It'd be great if it was top 5, but you're right, I'm fairly certain it won't be.

doomy3
02-28-2009, 12:08 AM
The Pats will get a first rounder for him; not a huge deal to me where it is. It'd be great if it was top 5, but you're right, I'm fairly certain it won't be.

I agree with you on this. You guys will get a first for him. The people on here talking about swapping seconds or trading a late rounder for him are crazy.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 12:08 AM
Would the Patriots even want to pay a top 5 pick?

Tribal Warfare
02-28-2009, 12:09 AM
Those names does ring bells.

But saying unless the #3 pick is a HOFer the pick is a bust is crazy. It is possible that there may be not one HOFer in this class. The player taken at #3 could be a very good or great player and not make it to Canton. If this happens, by using your logic, it was still an awful pick. I think all this draft talk is clouding your thinking.



That's the definition of a Franchise QB, perennial all-pro and the potential to be a HOfer

Frankie
02-28-2009, 12:19 AM
Methinks it's Cassel and Vrable for a switch of 1sts.

BradyFTW!
02-28-2009, 12:21 AM
I agree with you on this. You guys will get a first for him. The people on here talking about swapping seconds or trading a late rounder for him are crazy.

Hahaha, at least someone recognizes that. For a Pats fan, I'm actually not that high on Cassel. Subtract out a handful of games where he had 18 TDs vs. 3 TDs against some bad teams, and you realize that his stats were good-but-not-great against the really good teams. But still: so what? He was thrust into the spotlight in week one, had to replace a guy who just threw for 50 TDs the year before, and went from a guy who hadn't started a game in the better part of a decade to the starting QB of a Super Bowl-contender. He took it in stride, soldiered through a rough patch with a very weak offensive line, and significantly improved every week. By week 17, he had me convinced that he could QB the team deep into the playoffs (if only we'd made it). He makes the right reads, flat-out doesn't make dumb mistakes, has a stronger arm than Brady did at his age, has developed good pocket presence, and picks up a couple first downs per game on the ground. Apparently most Chiefs fans don't want him, and that's fine. Some team's going to get him, and have a very good starting QB for a long time.

BTW, if playing at USC is the same as playing in the pros, and it readily translates over and the pressure is all the same, then what's Matt Leinart up to? You can absolutely never be certain that a QB, no matter how talented in college, will make it in the NFL.

DrRyan
02-28-2009, 12:22 AM
That's the definition of a Franchise QB, perennial all-pro and the potential to be a HOfer

And in the league right now, I would say there are two of them. Manning and Brady.

Tribal Warfare
02-28-2009, 12:26 AM
And in the league right now, I would say there are two of them. Manning and Brady.

and look who's always in the hunt and it's those two,

Fat Elvis
02-28-2009, 01:02 AM
Methinks it's Cassel and Vrable for a switch of 1sts.

Yep.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 01:05 AM
Methinks it's Cassel and Vrable for a switch of 1sts.

That's 1540 draft points. There is no way, no fucking way we'd trade the equivalent of our 2nd-7th rounders and next year's first for those two.

Tribal Warfare
02-28-2009, 01:06 AM
That's 1540 draft points. There is no way, no fucking way we'd trade the equivalent of our 2nd-7th rounders and next year's first for those two.

Personally, I believe he'll go to Detroit due to their situation.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 01:07 AM
That's 1540 draft points. There is no way, no fucking way we'd trade the equivalent of our 2nd-7th rounders and next year's first for those two.

If we really gave that up for Matt Cassell I don't think I'd have anything nice to say for awhile.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 01:11 AM
Personally, I believe he'll go to Detroit due to their situation.

If this happened, and caused us to get Stafford, I'd love Cassel for all eternity.

BryanBusby
02-28-2009, 01:17 AM
Methinks it's Cassel and Vrable for a switch of 1sts.

It really wouldn't be a bad deal, but I guess it'd depend on who you ask and what they think of Cassel. If Pioli believes Cassel is THE guy, I'd go for it. Get a QB and get out of paying a top 3 pick contract would be good.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 01:19 AM
:doh!:

It really wouldn't be a bad deal, but I guess it'd depend on who you ask and what they think of Cassel. If Pioli believes Cassel is THE guy, I'd go for it. Get a QB and get out of paying a top 3 pick contract would be good.

Frankie
02-28-2009, 11:10 AM
That's 1540 draft points. There is no way, no ****ing way we'd trade the equivalent of our 2nd-7th rounders and next year's first for those two.

I agree with you. But a switch of 1sts is better than the 1st outright that the article talks about. That is way more than ridiculous.

Frankie
02-28-2009, 11:11 AM
If this happened, and caused us to get Sanchez, I'd love Cassel for all eternity.

FYP.

DrRyan
02-28-2009, 11:12 AM
I know this is tough to grasp for the QB at #3 or bust crowd. But, it is entirely possible that Cassel will be a better Pro QB than either Stafford or Sanchez. I am not saying that it so, but it is definitely possible. If the trade happens that we get Cassel and trade first round picks with NE and Cassel ends up the better Pro than Stafford or Sanchez, then would you be satisfied?

It is a pretty absurd to take an, "I will take my ball and go home" kind of stance if Pioli pulls the trigger on said deal. Try and take a step back and look at it objectively. If we get Cassel and he works out we have remedied the QBOTF problem. Then it is likely Laurinaitis or English is there and also likely they could go with Unger or Mack at the top of the second. That would give them three starters for opening day improving four positions if they move Niswanger to G. Please, tell me, how is that such a bad situation? OMG we lost some points on the draft chart rings pretty hollow if they are able to greatly improve the team.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 11:13 AM
I agree with you. But a switch of 1sts is better than the 1st outright that the article talks about. That is way more than ridiculous.

So having your nuts cut off is acceptable because you didn't have a 12 gauge blowing the top off your skull?

JASONSAUTO
02-28-2009, 11:18 AM
So having your nuts cut off is acceptable because you didn't have a 12 gauge blowing the top off your skull?

well you would still be alive:D


and FUCK YOU HAMAS FUCKING JENKINS:D

htismaqe
02-28-2009, 11:18 AM
I know this is tough to grasp for the QB at #3 or bust crowd. But, it is entirely possible that Cassel will be a better Pro QB than either Stafford or Sanchez. I am not saying that it so, but it is definitely possible. If the trade happens that we get Cassel and trade first round picks with NE and Cassel ends up the better Pro than Stafford or Sanchez, then would you be satisfied?

It is a pretty absurd to take an, "I will take my ball and go home" kind of stance if Pioli pulls the trigger on said deal. Try and take a step back and look at it objectively. If we get Cassel and he works out we have remedied the QBOTF problem. Then it is likely Laurinaitis or English is there and also likely they could go with Unger or Mack at the top of the second. That would give them three starters for opening day improving four positions if they move Niswanger to G. Please, tell me, how is that such a bad situation? OMG we lost some points on the draft chart rings pretty hollow if they are able to greatly improve the team.

In two years, he'll be 30 years old. We need to get better value for the #3 overall than that.

doomy3
02-28-2009, 11:20 AM
In two years, he'll be 30 years old. We need to get better value for the #3 overall than that.

I think he's only 26.

DrRyan
02-28-2009, 11:21 AM
In that case, in 7 years he will be 35 years old and need another QBOTF at that time.

Edit: Or 33 years old, whichever of you are correct. Cassel is still plenty young enough to play in this league for a long time, provided he plays well.

Cosmos
02-28-2009, 11:26 AM
I know this is tough to grasp for the QB at #3 or bust crowd. But, it is entirely possible that Cassel will be a better Pro QB than either Stafford or Sanchez. I am not saying that it so, but it is definitely possible. If the trade happens that we get Cassel and trade first round picks with NE and Cassel ends up the better Pro than Stafford or Sanchez, then would you be satisfied?

It is a pretty absurd to take an, "I will take my ball and go home" kind of stance if Pioli pulls the trigger on said deal. Try and take a step back and look at it objectively. If we get Cassel and he works out we have remedied the QBOTF problem. Then it is likely Laurinaitis or English is there and also likely they could go with Unger or Mack at the top of the second. That would give them three starters for opening day improving four positions if they move Niswanger to G. Please, tell me, how is that such a bad situation? OMG we lost some points on the draft chart rings pretty hollow if they are able to greatly improve the team.

+1

You fill the most important position on the field with a starting quarterback with upside in Cassel.

You gain a leader and a viable talent on defense in Vrabel who will help both players and coaches in the transition to 34.

You pick at 23 where by all accounts you can have a choice of a quality rush 34 end, center, LB or WR.

OR

You can take a chance on a rookie QB at #3.

I'm not one who is in love with either Stafford or Sanchez.

Frankie
02-28-2009, 11:27 AM
So having your nuts cut off is acceptable because you didn't have a 12 gauge blowing the top off your skull?

Again, I'm not supporting the deal I speculated. I'm just saying it's no way it's the outright 3. But it's more realistic to go down the way I said.

htismaqe
02-28-2009, 11:30 AM
I think he's only 26.

My bad, I thought he was turning 28 in May. He's only turning 27.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 11:33 AM
Again, I'm not supporting the deal I speculated. I'm just saying it's no way it's the outright 3. But it's more realistic to go down the way I said.

It may be more realistic, but it's still a horrible trade by any stretch of the imagination. Horrible.

The rumored trade with Cassel and TB would cost TB 875 points.
The rumored trade with Cassel for us to move down costs us 1540 points.

Think about that. First round picks are not created equal by any stretch of the imagination.

htismaqe
02-28-2009, 11:38 AM
It may be more realistic, but it's still a horrible trade by any stretch of the imagination. Horrible.

The rumored trade with Cassel and TB would cost TB 875 points.
The rumored trade with Cassel for us to move down costs us 1540 points.

Think about that. First round picks are not created equal by any stretch of the imagination.

I just don't see us trading the #3 overall for anybody. If this were the 10th or 12th pick, like when we got Green, I could see it. But teams don't trade #3 picks for players very often, if at all.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 11:42 AM
I just don't see us trading the #3 overall for anybody. If this were the 10th or 12th pick, like when we got Green, I could see it. But teams don't trade #3 picks for players very often, if at all.

Absolutely correct. Jared Allen fetched far less than the #3 overall pick. That trade was worth about 1300ish points.

Cassel for 3 would be 2200 points.

Would any of you trade Jared Allen for Matt Cassel, let alone Jared Allen and the 18th pick for Matt Cassel.

That's the equivalent.

Cosmos
02-28-2009, 11:43 AM
It may be more realistic, but it's still a horrible trade by any stretch of the imagination. Horrible.

The rumored trade with Cassel and TB would cost TB 875 points.
The rumored trade with Cassel for us to move down costs us 1540 points.

Think about that. First round picks are not created equal by any stretch of the imagination.

If this goes down it's because it's a 3 for 1 AND it gives Haley a QB to work with, and a defensive captain who will be critical on and off the field.

There are some intangeables I see Pioli willing to pay for to get this re-build off on the right foot.

There's still some great talent at 23.

JASONSAUTO
02-28-2009, 11:44 AM
Absolutely correct. Jared Allen fetched far less than the #3 overall pick. That trade was worth about 1300ish points.

Cassel for 3 would be 2200 points.

Would any of you trade Jared Allen for Matt Cassel, let alone Jared Allen and the 18th pick for Matt Cassel.

That's the equivalent.

but cassell and #23 for the #3 is about =to the allen trade? or no? earlier SOMEONE said that it's 1540 right

DrRyan
02-28-2009, 11:44 AM
You did not answer the question though. If they made the trade and Cassel works out, would you be satisfied? If Cassel worked out, the trade would be great and allow us to address several other positions in the draft.

Pioli Zombie
02-28-2009, 11:54 AM
i would shit my pants, fedex them to pioli, then burn his house down if we gave our 3rd overall pick for vrabel and cassel

I have to believe the Patriots would be required to also give the chiefs their #1 pick (23). That would essentially be trading down.
Cassel,Vrabel and #23 in this weak at the top draft is not bad for #3.
Chiefs can do really well at 23 and 35

Now if that's NOT the case then I agree belichick is raping Pioli on this one.
Posted via Mobile Device

JASONSAUTO
02-28-2009, 11:56 AM
I have to believe the Patriots would be required to also give the chiefs their #1 pick (23). That would essentially be trading down.
Cassel,Vrabel and #23 in this weak at the top draft is not bad for #3.
Chiefs can do really well at 23 and 35

Now if that's NOT the case then I agree belichick is raping Pioli on this one.
Posted via Mobile Device

the deal is done

Noss
02-28-2009, 12:01 PM
NFL network just stated Chiefs have traded for Matt Cassel no terms know at this time.

DrRyan
02-28-2009, 12:11 PM
Wow, T minus 5 4 3 2 1 until the Planet melts down!

doomy3
02-28-2009, 12:15 PM
Hopefully I am right on this one, and Cassel ends up being better than Sanchez...

Noss
02-28-2009, 12:23 PM
From NFL.com blogs

Chiefs complete trade for Cassel

The Kansas City Chiefs have found their starting quarterback. NFL Network’s Adam Schefter reports the Chiefs acquired QB Matt Cassel from the New England Patriots in a trade on Saturday.

The teams have agreed on compensation, according to Schefter, but no details of the deal were immediately available.

Cassel was designated as the Patriots’ franchise player on Feb. 5, guaranteeing him $14.65 million next season. The signed tender was officially submitted to the league earlier this week.

Cassel saw the first significant action of his career last season, taking over for the injured Tom Brady in Week 2 and starting 15 games, completing 63.4 percent of his passes for 3,693 yards and 21 touchdowns with 11 interceptions.

Cassel will see some familiar faces in Kansas City. Schefter also reports Patriots linebacker Mike Vrabel was in Kansas City on Friday undergoing a physical so that he can then be traded to the Chiefs. Vrabel later confirmed the trade in an email to The Boston Globe. Cassel and Vrabel will be playing for new Chiefs GM Scott Pioli, who was hired in January to oversee the team’s football operations after nine seasons in New England.

Detoxing
02-28-2009, 12:31 PM
It better not be for the 3rd overall. I support the Cassel move, but not for our 3rd overall. If that's the deal, we got fucked by the pats like every other team.

Frankie
02-28-2009, 03:30 PM
It may be more realistic, but it's still a horrible trade by any stretch of the imagination. Horrible.

The rumored trade with Cassel and TB would cost TB 875 points.
The rumored trade with Cassel for us to move down costs us 1540 points.

Think about that. First round picks are not created equal by any stretch of the imagination.

I KNOW dude. I would not be for that trade either. But as we don't have any control, I would be far less disappointed if they swapped ones than us giving up our one outright as the writer is speculating/hoping.

Ebolapox
02-28-2009, 03:45 PM
...Once Cassel got his sea legs, sacks were a minor issue.

Cheers, BostonTim

that silly bitch, why was he playing qb from the sea anyway? shit, did he learn nothing from robert edwards?!?