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Amnorix
02-27-2009, 09:38 PM
As I did when Pioli came over, I'll post a separate thread because I think it's fair to say that I might have just a little more knowledge about the guy than most on here. :D

What you guys have traded for is a very smart, team-driven, reliable and consistent performer able to play both inside and outside linebacker in the 3-4, with championship credentials and very good leadership skills.

In my opinion, the reasons that the Chiefs have made this trade are as follows:

1. Veteran leadership. The Chiefs are VERY young. Rather than yet another young draft pick player, the Chiefs have decided that even though he is on the downside of his career and will only play for another year or two, it is important to bring in someone who can show the younger players HOW to practice, HOW to review film, HOW to prepare for games and be coachable, and HOW to play 3-4 linebacker.

2. Defensive flexibility. Vrabel can play both inside and outside in the 3-4 with relatively equal facility. A solid performer, he can set the edge, rush the passer and play hardnosed in the middle.

3. Position flexibility. In addition to his inside/outside talents in the 3-4, he also plays TE in goal line situations, showing the rest of the team that he is able and willing to do WHATEVER the coaches ask to help the team win.

He is, of course, on the downside of his career. Last year there was a very noticeable dropoff in his ability to make impact plays. Whereas in years gone by he stood out on the field for making key plays, last year he wasn't very noticeable. That's good in that you didn't often look at him as having screwed something up, but it's bad in that he wasn't making the strip-sacks that had earned him the love of Patriots fans.

Many here denigrate what he will bring ON the field, and wonder why the Chiefs are giving up anything for him. What you need to understand is that as much as they want what he brings on the field, what they are really bringing him here for is what he brings OFF the field. That is what makes him valuable to a ridiculously young, inexperienced Chiefs team.

And when he talks, those young guys will listen. His three rings ensure that. He will also help the coaches enforce their ways inside the locker room, and get the Chiefs players moving and operating in the right direction.

Though Pats fans knew his time was drawing near, we basically feel like there's been a death in teh family. Vrabel was universally loved and respected by Patriots fans, and we're very sad to see him go.

Tiger's Fan
02-27-2009, 09:41 PM
Haven't you heard? He's a no talent scrub, who adds nothing to our stellar defense. We'd much rather have the late round pick for that QBOTF.

doomy3
02-27-2009, 09:42 PM
Thanks for the feedback. Seems most Pats fans echo most of this.

blueballs
02-27-2009, 09:43 PM
The important thing here
is that the Chiefs Defense
gets another bel on it

Woodrow Call
02-27-2009, 09:44 PM
Good stuff.

You better have a dandy of a post ready if the Cassel trade happens.

DaFace
02-27-2009, 09:44 PM
Thanks.

rad
02-27-2009, 09:45 PM
Hamas would rather eat the dried shit out of Chewbacca's ass fur than give up any pick for Mike Vrabel.

el borracho
02-27-2009, 09:54 PM
I don't care what kind of a tutor/role model Vrabel may be, that is what coaches are for. I'm fucking pissed that we traded for an old man. Even if it was a 7th round pick, it was too much. This trade sucks ass.

Nero's Neptune
02-27-2009, 09:55 PM
I wonder if Pioli is willing to meet with him...?

Der Flöprer
02-27-2009, 09:56 PM
I don't care what kind of a tutor/role model Vrabel may be, that is what coaches are for. I'm fucking pissed that we traded for an old man. Even if it was a 7th round pick, it was too much. This trade sucks ass.

Yeah. I don't think I've been happy about one single addition to this team since Pioli was hired. I just hope I'm dead fuckin wrong.

ChiefRon
02-27-2009, 09:56 PM
I'm not pissed we brought him in, I'm pissed we gave up a draft pick for an aging veteran who's only got a year or two left in him.

Face it: the mentor schooled the tutor in this deal.

And who says you weren't going to cut him anyway?

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 09:57 PM
I don't care what kind of a tutor/role model Vrabel may be, that is what coaches are for. I'm ****ing pissed that we traded for an old man. Even if it was a 7th round pick, it was too much. This trade sucks ass.

Then you're a fool.

The chances that a 6th or 7th pick happens to be anything other than a useless scrub who either doesn't make the team or is cut after a year or three on the practice squad is very high.

Your defense sucks, and your team is barely older than the team at KU. You don't need to have someone teach them how to play in the NFL? You don't want veteran leadership? You don't need a clubhouse enforcer?

And last but not least, you don't seem to have any understanding of the value of PLAYERS that take what the coaches want the players to do, and ENFORCE it in the locker room.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 09:58 PM
I'm not pissed we brought him in, I'm pissed we gave up a draft pick for an aging veteran who's only got a year or two left in him.

Face it: the mentor schooled the tutor in this deal.

And who says you weren't going to cut him anyway?

Riddle me this -- WTF incentive does Vrabel have to sign with the Chiefs all else being equal? Oh no -- he'd be with a potential contender if he had a choice, rest assured. Unless you offered alot more money.

el borracho
02-27-2009, 10:02 PM
Yeah. I don't think I've been happy about one single addition to this team since Pioli was hired. I just hope I'm dead ****in wrong.

Well, I did like (not love) the selection of Haley but I am so fundamentally opposed trading for players and this is exponentially compounded in my mind thinking about how high our draft picks are this year and the players we are talking about. Vrabel? He's as old as the hills. Cassel? What has he proven? And I am pissed that we are gifting our valuable picks to the most talented team, not only in the league, but in our conference.

BradyFTW!
02-27-2009, 10:04 PM
FWIW, when Pioli was hired in New England, a bunch of people freaked out about the moves that he was making then, too. Eventually you'll realize that he's really good at what he does and, if you're smart, you'll stop complaining and realize that you're lucky to have a top-tier exec in charge. He's a large part of the reason why the Pats went from 5-11 to Super Bowl champs in one year.

ChiefRon
02-27-2009, 10:05 PM
Riddle me this -- WTF incentive does Vrabel have to sign with the Chiefs all else being equal? Oh no -- he'd be with a potential contender if he had a choice, rest assured. Unless you offered alot more money.

Fair enough, if he were cut he wouldn't have come here.

So tell me, since I haven't got a clue.

What veterans did you guys bring in early on in the BB/Pioli era to "teach" the young guys how to win?

I remember Seau, but that was after you had already won a SB or two, wasn't it?

PHOG
02-27-2009, 10:07 PM
I think someone could do alot worse in th 7th round than Vrabel, which is the start of a dynasty....he may not be here when it happens, but it's a start...

el borracho
02-27-2009, 10:07 PM
Then you're a fool.

The chances that a 6th or 7th pick happens to be anything other than a useless scrub who either doesn't make the team or is cut after a year or three on the practice squad is very high.

Your defense sucks, and your team is barely older than the team at KU. You don't need to have someone teach them how to play in the NFL? You don't want veteran leadership? You don't need a clubhouse enforcer?

And last but not least, you don't seem to have any understanding of the value of PLAYERS that take what the coaches want the players to do, and ENFORCE it in the locker room.

The chances that a 6th or 7th round pick are productive players in 3 years is small; the chance that Vrabel is a productive player in 3 years is non-existant.

While I won't completely discount the value of veteran leadership, I wouldn't give up draft picks to get it. There are plenty of free-agents available and, as I've already stated, I expect the coaches to teach the players. I don't know what you mean by "clubhouse enforcer" so I can't answer that. What is Vrabel going to enforce?

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 10:08 PM
Well, I did like (not love) the selection of Haley but I am so fundamentally opposed trading for players and this is exponentially compounded in my mind thinking about how high our draft picks are this year and the players we are talking about. Vrabel? He's as old as the hills. Cassel? What has he proven? And I am pissed that we are gifting our valuable picks to the most talented team, not only in the league, but in our conference.

First, and not to be insulting, but you hardly need to worry about making the Patriots stronger. You need to worry about not sucking. Once you stop sucking, then you make take the next step.

Second, high or not, a late round pick is still more likely than not to be a mostly useless warm body.

Third, your team is YOUNG. Really, really, REALLY young. What do you need another really young, late round pick for? What will he add? The probably answer is "nothing". Which is a heck of a lot less than Vrabel, who can show the rest of your locker room how to win.

ChiefRon
02-27-2009, 10:08 PM
Who says it was a 6th or 7th round pick?

txhawk
02-27-2009, 10:09 PM
Bill Parcells is 66 years old and has retired from football 3 different times. He isn't coming here to be our GM and, really, I wouldn't want him to.

This was el borracho's quote last year when I said if we want to make a move at GM we should try and get Parcells to come on board.

We all get some wrong, but i'm leaning toward Pioli's decision making over his.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 10:11 PM
Fair enough, if he were cut he wouldn't have come here.

So tell me, since I haven't got a clue.

What veterans did you guys bring in early on in the BB/Pioli era to "teach" the young guys how to win?

I remember Seau, but that was after you had already won a SB or two, wasn't it?

Yeah, Seau was later, much later.

Keep in mind that the Patriots team Belichick inherited in 2000 was fundamentally different from teh group of kids you have:

1. Starting QB was Drew Bledsoe -- 7 year veteran, pro bowler, and one SB appearance.

2. The team started 2000 just 3 years removed from a SB appearance, with playoff appearances and victories within the last couple of years.

3. Seasoned vets: Bledsoe, Bruschi, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Willie McGinest, Bruce Armstrong,

You've got Tony Gonzalez and a bunch of kids, basically.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 10:11 PM
This was el borracho's quote last year when I said if we want to make a move at GM we should try and get Parcells to come on board.

We all get some wrong, but i'm leaning toward Pioli's decision making over his.

:LOL:

rad
02-27-2009, 10:12 PM
The chances that a 6th or 7th round pick are productive players in 3 years is small; the chance that Vrabel is a productive player in 3 years is non-existant.

While I won't completely discount the value of veteran leadership, I wouldn't give up draft picks to get it. There are plenty of free-agents available and, as I've already stated, I expect the coaches to teach the players. I don't know what you mean by "clubhouse enforcer" so I can't answer that. What is Vrabel going to enforce?

I think the idea behind it is while Vrabel himself won't be around long, his contributions to our younger players will.

BradyFTW!
02-27-2009, 10:12 PM
Fair enough, if he were cut he wouldn't have come here.

So tell me, since I haven't got a clue.

What veterans did you guys bring in early on in the BB/Pioli era to "teach" the young guys how to win?

I remember Seau, but that was after you had already won a SB or two, wasn't it?

Seau was after we'd won all three. The one that I'd correlate, somewhat, to this trade for Vrabel is Roman Phifer. He had played for the Jets, was familiar with Belichick's defense as a result. The Pats signed him in 2001, and as it worked out he ended up being a starting LB in the first SB, and he was there for all 3 of them.

PHOG
02-27-2009, 10:13 PM
Yeah, Seau was later, much later.

Keep in mind that the Patriots team Belichick inherited in 2000 was fundamentally different from teh group of kids you have:

1. Starting QB was Drew Bledsoe -- 7 year veteran, pro bowler, and one SB appearance.

2. The team started 2000 just 3 years removed from a SB appearance, with playoff appearances and victories within the last couple of years.

3. Seasoned vets: Bledsoe, Bruschi, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Willie McGinest, Bruce Armstrong,

You've got Tony Gonzalez and a bunch of kids, basically.

Plus a whiny Waters and a bitch spitter in Johnson

el borracho
02-27-2009, 10:13 PM
You are welcome to believe what you wish, txhawk. I still don't think Parcells would have been the answer in KC... don't really think he will be the SuperBowl answer in Miami, either.

RJ
02-27-2009, 10:14 PM
Amnorix, I'm sure you're right about all the things Vrabel will be able to provide. He arrives with a great resume.

What I question is whether he will, and why he'd want to.

I just can't imagine that Vrabel is feeling good about coming to a 2-14 team in exchange for a late round draft pick. I hope I'm wrong, but I envision him just showing up to draw a pay check.

BradyFTW!
02-27-2009, 10:15 PM
The chances that a 6th or 7th round pick are productive players in 3 years is small; the chance that Vrabel is a productive player in 3 years is non-existant.

While I won't completely discount the value of veteran leadership, I wouldn't give up draft picks to get it. There are plenty of free-agents available and, as I've already stated, I expect the coaches to teach the players. I don't know what you mean by "clubhouse enforcer" so I can't answer that. What is Vrabel going to enforce?

It is the coach's job to teach the players, but if you can't understand the inherent value in having experienced, productive, disciplined, and hard-working veterans with past success to hold the young guys accountable, then I don't know what to tell you. It's a time-tested method for building a strong foundation in just about every team sport.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 10:15 PM
The chances that a 6th or 7th round pick are productive players in 3 years is small; the chance that Vrabel is a productive player in 3 years is non-existant.

You're right, but what Vrabel can teach your entire team, especially your defense, about hwo to play the 3-4 and how to WIN in the NFL is HUGE. A late round pick needs to be shown where the bathroom is.

While I won't completely discount the value of veteran leadership, I wouldn't give up draft picks to get it. There are plenty of free-agents available and, as I've already stated, I expect the coaches to teach the players. I don't know what you mean by "clubhouse enforcer" so I can't answer that. What is Vrabel going to enforce?

Then you don't understand the NFL at a very fundamental level.

The NFL isn't the NBA or MLB. There are 60 players (including practice squad). It's not a bunch of 1:1 matchups, and the most talent doesn't always win. Read some books about NFL teambuilding and you'll understand this deal alot better.

Vrabel will give you guys stuff that you'll never see, know or understand. Will it definitely work? No. But it's a piece to the puzzle.

txhawk
02-27-2009, 10:16 PM
They're tremendously better now, specifically from a talent standpoint, then they were the year before. You have to win games to get to the playoffs.

rad
02-27-2009, 10:16 PM
Amnorix, I'm sure you're right about all the things Vrabel will be able to provide. He arrives with a great resume.

What I question is whether he will, and why he'd want to.

I just can't imagine that Vrabel is feeling good about coming to a 2-14 team in exchange for a late round draft pick. I hope I'm wrong, but I envision him just showing up to draw a pay check.

I don't think he has a choice.

Besides, I don't believe he's a "me first" kind of player.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 10:16 PM
Amnorix, I'm sure you're right about all the things Vrabel will be able to provide. He arrives with a great resume.

What I question is whether he will, and why he'd want to.

I just can't imagine that Vrabel is feeling good about coming to a 2-14 team in exchange for a late round draft pick. I hope I'm wrong, but I envision him just showing up to draw a pay check.

He's a consummate professional. I'm sure you're right -- he's not thrilled -- but he'll do his job. Count on it.

PHOG
02-27-2009, 10:17 PM
Amnorix, I'm sure you're right about all the things Vrabel will be able to provide. He arrives with a great resume.

What I question is whether he will, and why he'd want to.

I just can't imagine that Vrabel is feeling good about coming to a 2-14 team in exchange for a late round draft pick. I hope I'm wrong, but I envision him just showing up to draw a pay check.

I myself would doubt that....but i've been wrong before...it seems obvious why they're bringing him in to me.

BradyFTW!
02-27-2009, 10:17 PM
Amnorix, I'm sure you're right about all the things Vrabel will be able to provide. He arrives with a great resume.

What I question is whether he will, and why he'd want to.

I just can't imagine that Vrabel is feeling good about coming to a 2-14 team in exchange for a late round draft pick. I hope I'm wrong, but I envision him just showing up to draw a pay check.

That's not an unreasonable concern, normally, but it just isn't the kind of player that Vrabel is. Trust the Pats fans on this one- once you've watched him for a while, you'll get why this isn't something that you needed to be worried about.

boogblaster
02-27-2009, 10:17 PM
Dont count the ole guy out yet ... NE won lots of games with old-smart-proven players ....

txhawk
02-27-2009, 10:18 PM
I personally don't view Vrabel as a game changer. But what defensive player on this squad is? We have to change the ATTITUDE of this defense. If Vrabel can help do that, he's worth it.

ChiefRon
02-27-2009, 10:19 PM
Yeah, Seau was later, much later.

Keep in mind that the Patriots team Belichick inherited in 2000 was fundamentally different from teh group of kids you have:

1. Starting QB was Drew Bledsoe -- 7 year veteran, pro bowler, and one SB appearance.

2. The team started 2000 just 3 years removed from a SB appearance, with playoff appearances and victories within the last couple of years.

3. Seasoned vets: Bledsoe, Bruschi, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Willie McGinest, Bruce Armstrong,

You've got Tony Gonzalez and a bunch of kids, basically.

Ah yes, now I remember, Belichick inherited this team when Parcells "retired".

I'm glad you feel good about this move for the Chiefs, because I sure as hell don't.

I'm going to try to keep a level head, and try to reserve judgement until I see the team that's assembled in August.

But with a ton of needs and a ton of salary cap space, and this is the move we make when folks like Brown and Scott and other impact players are visiting / signing other teams, I just have to scratch my head.

And that little bit of doubt I had when we hired Pioli (hmm, I hope his success had something to do with Pioli's judgement and not him being a yes man to Belichick) just grew a little...

BradyFTW!
02-27-2009, 10:20 PM
I personally don't view Vrabel as a game changer. But what defensive player on this squad is? We have to change the ATTITUDE of this defense. If Vrabel can help do that, he's worth it.

He will. Part of the reason why a lot of Pats fans are pissed about losing him is that, even if he has lost a step, he pretty much is the "attitude" guy on defense.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 10:21 PM
Ah yes, now I remember, Belichick inherited this team when Parcells "retired".

errr....sort of, but you seem to be a bit off on the timeline. Parcells "retired" from the Jets. It was Parcells leaving after the SB run in 1996, then 3 years of Pete Carroll, and then Belichick coming in.

el borracho
02-27-2009, 10:22 PM
I think the idea behind it is while Vrabel himself won't be around long, his contributions to our younger players will.

I understand the underlying concept, I just disagree vehemently with paying a premium (draft pick) for it. Perhaps I under-value vet leadership but, realistically, Vrabel will not be here if/when the Chiefs are winners again and neither will most of the players on the 2009 team. This is obviously not as stupid as trading our #12 for Green when we could have had him for nothing in free-agency the following year but it is stupid.

By the way, do you remember the justification for acquiring Green one year earlier?- so he could teach the youngsters and help install the system. Guess what! Green's presence didn't help Snoop Minnis or C. Thomas turn into anything they weren't already- crappy players.

p.s. I'm still wondering what Vrabel is going to enforce.

BradyFTW!
02-27-2009, 10:22 PM
Ah yes, now I remember, Belichick inherited this team when Parcells "retired".

I'm glad you feel good about this move for the Chiefs, because I sure as hell don't.

I'm going to try to keep a level head, and try to reserve judgement until I see the team that's assembled in August.

But with a ton of needs and a ton of salary cap space, and this is the move we make when folks like Brown and Scott and other impact players are visiting / signing other teams, I just have to scratch my head.

And that little bit of doubt I had when we hired Pioli (hmm, I hope his success had something to do with Pioli's judgement and not him being a yes man to Belichick) just grew a little...

Fair enough, just don't judge the whole system too quickly. The Pats actually got 3 games worse in Belichick's first year (8-8 to 5-11) because he had to purge all the overpriced veterans, malcontents, and guys who didn't fit the system. Once you've done that, it still takes some time to build a nucleus of talent that buys into the system.

PHOG
02-27-2009, 10:22 PM
Ah yes, now I remember, Belichick inherited this team when Parcells "retired".

I'm glad you feel good about this move for the Chiefs, because I sure as hell don't.

I'm going to try to keep a level head, and try to reserve judgement until I see the team that's assembled in August.

But with a ton of needs and a ton of salary cap space, and this is the move we make when folks like Brown and Scott and other impact players are visiting / signing other teams, I just have to scratch my head.

And that little bit of doubt I had when we hired Pioli (hmm, I hope his success had something to do with Pioli's judgement and not him being a yes man to Belichick) just grew a little...

I'm sure your phone will be ringing of the hook tomorow morning...Scott calling....asking your advice??

ct
02-27-2009, 10:23 PM
Thanks Amnorix, always appreciate your input!

ChiefRon
02-27-2009, 10:23 PM
errr....sort of, but you seem to be a bit off on the timeline. Parcells "retired" from the Jets. It was Parcells leaving after the SB run in 1996, then 3 years of Pete Carroll, and then Belichick coming in.

I couldn't remember exactly. I don't pay a lot of attention to the Jets or Patriots and never have. I hate both those teams.

No offense.

BradyFTW!
02-27-2009, 10:24 PM
errr....sort of, but you seem to be a bit off on the timeline. Parcells "retired" from the Jets. It was Parcells leaving after the SB run in 1996, then 3 years of Pete Carroll, and then Belichick coming in.

Yup, and years of Bobby Grier giving out top-tier contracts that murdered our salary cap, too. The Pats had some good players when he arrived: Ted Johnson, Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, Troy Brown, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, etc., but they were by no means a good team.

ChiefRon
02-27-2009, 10:25 PM
Thanks Amnorix, always appreciate your input!

Agreed, the insight kept me from beating my wife. Well, tonight anyway.

Thanks.

txhawk
02-27-2009, 10:28 PM
The Chiefs are my team, but I'm an NFL guy. And I generally don't find myself looking at our team through rose colored glasses. Keep in mind, whatever this new management group does has to be better than what the former regime did. And that's 20+ years of mediocrity.

Don't forget the bar isn't set that high here.

KcFanInGA
02-27-2009, 10:28 PM
I personally don't view Vrabel as a game changer. But what defensive player on this squad is? We have to change the ATTITUDE of this defense. If Vrabel can help do that, he's worth it.

No doubt. He is at minimum better than anything we have seen from our defense in the past season. Coaches and staff can only teach so much. Some people learn better by watching someone do it, we know that from watching kids learn in school for nuts sake! And Vrabel is being brought in to do just that. Now I know opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink. Just wanted to stick my asshole in this particular discussion. Take that! Take that!:eek:

Count Alex's Losses
02-27-2009, 10:28 PM
What makes him a good pass rusher, Amno? He always struck me as someone who was very smooth in getting to the quarterback. Made it look easy at times.

RJ
02-27-2009, 10:31 PM
I don't think he has a choice.

Besides, I don't believe he's a "me first" kind of player.

He's a consummate professional. I'm sure you're right -- he's not thrilled -- but he'll do his job. Count on it.


I myself would doubt that....but i've been wrong before...it seems obvious why they're bringing him in to me.


That's not an unreasonable concern, normally, but it just isn't the kind of player that Vrabel is. Trust the Pats fans on this one- once you've watched him for a while, you'll get why this isn't something that you needed to be worried about.



I hope all of you are correct but I'll believe it when I see it. Unless Vrabel has received some sort of incentives we're not privy to, he can't be happy about this deal.....and rightly so.

Hopefully, Pioli had some discussions with Vrabel before the trade was finalized. But Pioli doesn't seem big on talking to players. Well, ok, maybe he talks to NE players.

txhawk
02-27-2009, 10:32 PM
What makes him a good pass rusher, Amno? He always struck me as someone who was very smooth in getting to the quarterback. Made it look easy at times.
Not Amnorix, but watched quite a bit of the pats this year, and can say that He's good at the point of attack, but he's not the guy he was the past couple of years speed wise.

Plus he didn't have as good as a defensive backfield behind him. Sure makes a difference when the dbacks are playing good coverage when it comes to gettin after the qb.

Joe_Camel
02-27-2009, 10:35 PM
For everyone that is complaining about maybe losing a 6th or 7th round pick in this trade, here is our all pro line up of 6th and 7th rounders since 2000

6 170 Barry Richardson T Clemson
6 182 Kevin Robinson WR Utah
7 210 Brian Johnston DE Gardner-Webb
7 239 Mike Merritt TE Central Florida

6 196 Herb Taylor T Texas Christian
7 231 Michael Allan TE Whitworth

6 186 Tre' Stallings G Mississippi
6 190 Jeff Webb WR San Diego State
7 228 Jarrad Page DB UCLA

6 187 Will Svitek T Stanford
6 199 Khari Long DE Baylor
7 229 James Kilian -- Tulsa
7 238 Jeremy Parquet T Southern Mississippi

6 195 Jeris McIntyre WR Auburn
7 231 Kevin Sampson T Syracuse

6 189 Jimmy Wilkerson DE Oklahoma
7 230 Montique Sharpe DT Wake Forest
7 252 Willie Pile DB Virginia Tech

7 221 Maurice Rodriguez -- Fresno State

6 176 Alex Sulfsted T Miami (Ohio)
7 212 Shaunard Harts DB Boise State
7 243 Terdell Sands DT Tennessee-Chattanooga

6 188 Darnell Alford T Boston College
7 208 Desmond Kitchings WR Furman

txhawk
02-27-2009, 10:36 PM
Bunch a badasses right there. Bunch. Quite a few.

bdeg
02-27-2009, 10:37 PM
Thanks Amnorix.
I've heard he can play all positions but is usually an OLB. So you think with loss of speed he may play ILB for us or is he still better on the outside? We need guys outside so that's my guess.

I'm downloading chiefs vs patriots right now, going to take a closer look. I kinda want to watch it tonight after I get back from the bars, but on a laptop with no sound that's probably not going to be that enjoyable.

OnTheWarpath58
02-27-2009, 10:42 PM
For everyone that is complaining about maybe losing a 6th or 7th round pick in this trade, here is our all pro line up of 6th and 7th rounders since 2000

6 170 Barry Richardson T Clemson
6 182 Kevin Robinson WR Utah
7 210 Brian Johnston DE Gardner-Webb
7 239 Mike Merritt TE Central Florida

6 196 Herb Taylor T Texas Christian
7 231 Michael Allan TE Whitworth

6 186 Tre' Stallings G Mississippi
6 190 Jeff Webb WR San Diego State
7 228 Jarrad Page DB UCLA

6 187 Will Svitek T Stanford
6 199 Khari Long DE Baylor
7 229 James Kilian -- Tulsa
7 238 Jeremy Parquet T Southern Mississippi

6 195 Jeris McIntyre WR Auburn
7 231 Kevin Sampson T Syracuse

6 189 Jimmy Wilkerson DE Oklahoma
7 230 Montique Sharpe DT Wake Forest
7 252 Willie Pile DB Virginia Tech

7 221 Maurice Rodriguez -- Fresno State

6 176 Alex Sulfsted T Miami (Ohio)
7 212 Shaunard Harts DB Boise State
7 243 Terdell Sands DT Tennessee-Chattanooga

6 188 Darnell Alford T Boston College
7 208 Desmond Kitchings WR Furman


If Carl Peterson was still running our drafts, you'd have a point.

The guy that IS running our draft has plucked some serviceable players out of the late rounds.

Antwan Harris
David Givens
Tully Banta-Cain
Dan Koppen
Matt Cassel

And some schmuck named Tom Brady.

ChiefRon
02-27-2009, 10:44 PM
For everyone that is complaining about maybe losing a 6th or 7th round pick in this trade, here is our all pro line up of 6th and 7th rounders since 2000

6 170 Barry Richardson T Clemson
6 182 Kevin Robinson WR Utah
7 210 Brian Johnston DE Gardner-Webb
7 239 Mike Merritt TE Central Florida

6 196 Herb Taylor T Texas Christian
7 231 Michael Allan TE Whitworth

6 186 Tre' Stallings G Mississippi
6 190 Jeff Webb WR San Diego State
7 228 Jarrad Page DB UCLA

6 187 Will Svitek T Stanford
6 199 Khari Long DE Baylor
7 229 James Kilian -- Tulsa
7 238 Jeremy Parquet T Southern Mississippi

6 195 Jeris McIntyre WR Auburn
7 231 Kevin Sampson T Syracuse

6 189 Jimmy Wilkerson DE Oklahoma
7 230 Montique Sharpe DT Wake Forest
7 252 Willie Pile DB Virginia Tech

7 221 Maurice Rodriguez -- Fresno State

6 176 Alex Sulfsted T Miami (Ohio)
7 212 Shaunard Harts DB Boise State
7 243 Terdell Sands DT Tennessee-Chattanooga

6 188 Darnell Alford T Boston College
7 208 Desmond Kitchings WR Furman

Again, where does this come from, that it was a 6th or 7th? How do we know?

txhawk
02-27-2009, 10:45 PM
If Carl Peterson was still running our drafts, you'd have a point.

The guy that IS running our draft has plucked some serviceable players out of the late rounds.

Antwan Harris
David Givens
Tully Banta-Cain
Dan Koppen
Matt Cassel

And some schmuck named Tom Brady.
The Tom Brady notion is spot on. But it's kinda one of those once in a lifetime kinda things don't you think.

I'm not naive enough to expect us to find our Tom Brady in the 6th or 7th round.

Joe_Camel
02-27-2009, 10:45 PM
If Carl Peterson was still running our drafts, you'd have a point.

The guy that IS running our draft has plucked some serviceable players out of the late rounds.

Antwan Harris
David Givens
Tully Banta-Cain
Dan Koppen
Matt Cassel

And some schmuck named Tom Brady.

Then why can't you trust his judgement?

rad
02-27-2009, 10:46 PM
If Carl Peterson was still running our drafts, you'd have a point.

The guy that IS running our draft has plucked some serviceable players out of the late rounds.

Antwan Harris
David Givens
Tully Banta-Cain
Dan Koppen
Matt Cassel

And some schmuck named Tom Brady.

No way you just said that.....

OnTheWarpath58
02-27-2009, 10:49 PM
Then why can't you trust his judgement?

What is wrong with me wishing he had kept that pick and used it on a young player that could still be here and contribute to a future SB win?

Contrary to popular belief, the guy isn't the God of all GM's.

He's made mistakes before, and he'll make them again.

You have to be the homer of all homers to agree with everything an organization does. I'm sure Amnorix can tell you stories of times they thought Pioli made a mistake.

OnTheWarpath58
02-27-2009, 10:50 PM
No way you just said that.....

Say what?

That Pioli has a history of picking serviceable players in the late rounds, and that I prefer he kept that pick, instead of trading it for a LB that won't be on the roster in 2 years?

rad
02-27-2009, 10:50 PM
Say what?

That Pioli has a history of picking serviceable players in the late rounds, and that I prefer he kept that pick, instead of trading it for a LB that won't be on the roster in 2 years?

"Tom Brady"

DeezNutz
02-27-2009, 10:51 PM
I'm not naive enough to expect us to find our Tom Brady in the 6th or 7th round.

Why not? It's a big crowd.

Start a Stafford/Sanchez thread and see what happens.

OnTheWarpath58
02-27-2009, 10:52 PM
The Tom Brady notion is spot on. But it's kinda one of those once in a lifetime kinda things don't you think.

I'm not naive enough to expect us to find our Tom Brady in the 6th or 7th round.

Who said anything about "finding our Brady?"

I'm just pointing out that Pioli has done a good job in the late rounds.

Missing out on say, a guy like Koppen (as an example) to trade for Vrabel frustrates the hell out of me.

OnTheWarpath58
02-27-2009, 10:54 PM
"Tom Brady"

The schmuck part was a joke.

And as I pointed out, I'm not expecting to find "Our Brady." My thoughts on that subject are well documented.

But I'd rather have the opportunity to draft a young player with potential, than to use that pick on an aging vet.

JMO.

PHOG
02-27-2009, 10:54 PM
What is wrong with me wishing he had kept that pick and used it on a young player that could still be here and contribute to a future SB win?

Contrary to popular belief, the guy isn't the God of all GM's.

He's made mistakes before, and he'll make them again.

You have to be the homer of all homers to agree with everything an organization does. I'm sure Amnorix can tell you stories of times they thought Pioli made a mistake.

His percentages ARE BETTER THAN ANYTHING we've had in.....evar!

Joe_Camel
02-27-2009, 10:56 PM
What is wrong with me wishing he had kept that pick and used it on a young player that could still be here and contribute to a future SB win?

Contrary to popular belief, the guy isn't the God of all GM's.

He's made mistakes before, and he'll make them again.

You have to be the homer of all homers to agree with everything an organization does. I'm sure Amnorix can tell you stories of times they thought Pioli made a mistake.

He may have made a mistake, but I don't think that any of us should lose any sleep over a trade for a good veteran player for a draft pick that may or may not be in the later rounds of the draft. I mean we did just pick up 12 rookies in the draft last year.

The Bad Guy
02-27-2009, 10:57 PM
Hamas would rather eat the dried shit out of Chewbacca's ass fur than give up any pick for Mike Vrabel.

He is the master of overexaggeration.

OnTheWarpath58
02-27-2009, 10:57 PM
His percentages ARE BETTER THAN ANYTHING we've had in.....evar!

I'm not knocking the guy.

I just don't agree with this decision.

rad
02-27-2009, 10:58 PM
As far as my take on the situation goes, I don't have one yet. I will wait and and see when the details come out to formulate my opinion. As far as speculation goes, if it's a 6 or 7, I'm OK with it then. I believe the residual effect of having a veteran presence on the field for a season or two will help our younger players when this team is ready to compete.

rad
02-27-2009, 11:00 PM
The schmuck part was a joke.

And as I pointed out, I'm not expecting to find "Our Brady." My thoughts on that subject are well documented.

But I'd rather have the opportunity to draft a young player with potential, than to use that pick on an aging vet.

JMO.

Noted.

PastorMikH
02-27-2009, 11:01 PM
What you need to understand is that as much as they want what he brings on the field, what they are really bringing him here for is what he brings OFF the field. That is what makes him valuable to a ridiculously young, inexperienced Chiefs team.





This is the thing that has been rolling over in my mind since hearing the word this morning about the trade.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:02 PM
I couldn't remember exactly. I don't pay a lot of attention to the Jets or Patriots and never have. I hate both those teams.

No offense.

No, that's fine. If I wanted to hang out with nothing but Patriots fans, I obviously wouldn't be here. :D

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:02 PM
Yup, and years of Bobby Grier giving out top-tier contracts that murdered our salary cap, too. The Pats had some good players when he arrived: Ted Johnson, Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, Troy Brown, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, etc., but they were by no means a good team.

Right, plus 3 completely wasted drafts under Grier. That was as bad as anything.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:04 PM
What makes him a good pass rusher, Amno? He always struck me as someone who was very smooth in getting to the quarterback. Made it look easy at times.

Very smart and great motor. Comes hard every play. Good anticipation for the snap, and good use of strength/leverage.

To be honest, last year he had either lost a step or was injured. He wasn't nearly as good in the pass rush as he had been.

txhawk
02-27-2009, 11:05 PM
As far as my take on the situation goes, I don't have one yet. I will wait and and see when the details come out to formulate my opinion. As far as speculation goes, if it's a 6 or 7, I'm OK with it then. I believe the residual effect of having a veteran presence on the field for a season or two will help our younger players when this team is ready to compete.
You know I agree with this statement for the most part. My hope is that the pick isn't something crazy like a 3rd or 4th, but I think Pioli would think better of that.

Obviously NE's willingness to part with Vrabel for a 6th or 7th is telling about how they feel about there existing linebacking corp. Hopefully it's not as much of a reflection of how they feel his skills have degraded.

But smile, we don't have Napolean Harris!

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:06 PM
Thanks Amnorix.
I've heard he can play all positions but is usually an OLB. So you think with loss of speed he may play ILB for us or is he still better on the outside? We need guys outside so that's my guess.

He was an OLB during his Pittsburgh years and first few years with us. When we had a run of injuries in the middle of our defense, and Phifer retired, etc., he slid inside and performed VERY well. He's a VERY smart defensive player, and can be either inside or outside and make few mistakes.

I assume outside. It's harder to find OLB players. I'd be very surprised if you guys were exclusively 3-4 this year, however...

OnTheWarpath58
02-27-2009, 11:07 PM
As far as my take on the situation goes, I don't have one yet. I will wait and and see when the details come out to formulate my opinion. As far as speculation goes, if it's a 6 or 7, I'm OK with it then. I believe the residual effect of having a veteran presence on the field for a season or two will help our younger players when this team is ready to compete.

Just as a hypothetical, for sake of conversation:

Say someone like AQ Shipley or Troy Kropog slides on draft day to the point we could have taken him with the pick we used on Vrabel.

Will you still be OK with it, knowing we could have had a spot on the OL locked up for the foreseeable future?

PHOG
02-27-2009, 11:07 PM
I'm not knocking the guy.

I just don't agree with this decision.

Oh, I understand...and I'm not sure I agree with it either, but I do believe it's just the start...and I do believe that....I think it's going to be a GREAT ride whether I or you or anyone else believes in a paricular move or not. I do think he has a plan, and that alone is leaps and bounds above the previous 3 years debacle (which isn't saying much).

I've edited this post so many times, it's getting really toughto type lol

Have a good one, g'night

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:09 PM
What is wrong with me wishing he had kept that pick and used it on a young player that could still be here and contribute to a future SB win?

Contrary to popular belief, the guy isn't the God of all GM's.

He's made mistakes before, and he'll make them again.

You have to be the homer of all homers to agree with everything an organization does. I'm sure Amnorix can tell you stories of times they thought Pioli made a mistake.

Sure. The entire 2000 draft other than Brady was a wipeout. They had less time than they wanted to prepare for it with all the silliness involving Parcells, but still.

And the Pats have had some lousy 2nd round picks, to be honest. Bethel Johnson and that other useless burner WR come to mind.

Some FA CB signings have turned out to be jokes.

The list goes on and on. Nobody is perfect. Not even close.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:11 PM
Who said anything about "finding our Brady?"

I'm just pointing out that Pioli has done a good job in the late rounds.

Missing out on say, a guy like Koppen (as an example) to trade for Vrabel frustrates the hell out of me.

Jesus Christ. You make the ridiculous assumption that, first, you're going to get something good with a late round pick, toher than just crossing your fingers and praying, which is basically what late round picks are.

Second, if there is someone he REALLY likes at 5th or 6th round, it's not that hard to trade to get a pick at those levels.

Finally, you just completely discount what Vrabel can bring you off the field on the LONG SHOT HOPE that you get yet another KID who just might not totally suck. It's silliness.

rad
02-27-2009, 11:11 PM
Just as a hypothetical, for sake of conversation:

Say someone like AQ Shipley or Troy Kropog slides on draft day to the point we could have taken him with the pick we used on Vrabel.

Will you still be OK with it, knowing we could have had a spot on the OL locked up for the foreseeable future?

Just so you understand where I land in the "pecking order" here, I'll tell you I don't know as much about football as most here do.

I don't know who those guys are, but if they did and could play as well as you infer, then no, I wouldn't.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:12 PM
He may have made a mistake, but I don't think that any of us should lose any sleep over a trade for a good veteran player for a draft pick that may or may not be in the later rounds of the draft. I mean we did just pick up 12 rookies in the draft last year.

Yeah, because 7 more is really what you want. Every team should have 40% of its roster be 1st and 2nd year guys...

:rolleyes:

(I realize you're not saying this, I'm directing this at the other geniouses on here)

OnTheWarpath58
02-27-2009, 11:12 PM
Sure. The entire 2000 draft other than Brady was a wipeout. They had less time than they wanted to prepare for it with all the silliness involving Parcells, but still.

And the Pats have had some lousy 2nd round picks, to be honest. Bethel Johnson and that other useless burner WR come to mind.

Some FA CB signings have turned out to be jokes.

The list goes on and on. Nobody is perfect. Not even close.

And that's my point.

It's silly to not question anything he does just because he's been part of 3 Championships.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:13 PM
You know I agree with this statement for the most part. My hope is that the pick isn't something crazy like a 3rd or 4th, but I think Pioli would think better of that.

Obviously NE's willingness to part with Vrabel for a 6th or 7th is telling about how they feel about there existing linebacking corp. Hopefully it's not as much of a reflection of how they feel his skills have degraded.

But smile, we don't have Napolean Harris!

Acutally, Patriots fans desperately hope that this is one part of a two step process to bring Peppers or someone here. We're REALLY thin at linebacker now!!

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:15 PM
Just as a hypothetical, for sake of conversation:

Say someone like AQ Shipley or Troy Kropog slides on draft day to the point we could have taken him with the pick we used on Vrabel.

Will you still be OK with it, knowing we could have had a spot on the OL locked up for the foreseeable future?

If they like those guys enough, they can move up to get them. It's not like it's hard to get a late round pick...

Simply Red
02-27-2009, 11:15 PM
Thanks.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:19 PM
Let me point out something else --

nobody on here, despite much discussion about the topic, has much feel for how much 3-4 versus 4-3 the team wants to play, or how well they project their current players in filling those roles.

They want to go to 3-4, and yet your roster isn't exactly loaded with guys who are well suited for that. The transition is a multiyear process. OLB is one of the tougher positions to fill.

Vrabel gives them someone who can do the OLB thing, and can help the younger players that can fit into that system do that. He has experience both at OLB and ILB, and can play and help other players with both roles.

What the hell 5th, 6th or 7th round pick can do any of that? Answer: none.

OnTheWarpath58
02-27-2009, 11:21 PM
Jesus Christ. You make the ridiculous assumption that, first, you're going to get something good with a late round pick, toher than just crossing your fingers and praying, which is basically what late round picks are.

He's hit on one or more almost every year. Tell me you would have won without the contributions of those players.

Second, if there is someone he REALLY likes at 5th or 6th round, it's not that hard to trade to get a pick at those levels.

Now we've given up another pick. We had 7 to start, presumably traded one of them for Vrabel, now we're using one to trade up to get a play we could have had if we just kept our pick.

Fantastic. A rebuilding team with 5 draft picks.

Finally, you just completely discount what Vrabel can bring you off the field on the LONG SHOT HOPE that you get yet another KID who just might not totally suck. It's silliness.

Who's he gonna teach to play linebacker?

Derrick Johnson, who's probably not going to be re-signed?

Demorrio Williams, who's also likely to be told to walk once his deal is up?

He's a rental, and it's pretty likely with a roster this shallow that half of the players he's "mentoring" this year aren't going to be on the roster next year.

He was great for you guys, he fit the system. Part of that system is being smart enough to know when to cut a guy loose because he's got nothing left to give. I think Belichick is fucking brilliant for getting anything for a guy that isn't an every-down player, who wouldn't have been on the team in 2010.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:30 PM
He's hit on one or more almost every year. Tell me you would have won without the contributions of those players.

Wow. With one hand you giveth, and with the other you taketh away. He's great with late round picks, yet stupid about giving them away.

The answer is that you're wrong. Brady is a once in a lifetime. Koppen in the 5th and CAssell in the 7th. David Givens and Tully Banta-Cain in the 7th worked out ok, but once they went elsewhere they were shwon to be not all that special after all. Other than that, nobody who has been much more than a warm body comes to mind. I could be missing one, but that's 5 picks out of (yes, I counted) 38 picks in rounds 5-7. So maybe a 12% chance of getting someone who isn't just fodder.

Now we've given up another pick. We had 7 to start, presumably traded one of them for Vrabel, now we're using one to trade up to get a play we could have had if we just kept our pick.

err...what? You can trade from next year, or package some garbage late round picks to move up. What is with this unholy fascination with late round picks?

And your team is already TOO YOUNG. Do you not get that part? You need guys who understand how to win in the NFL to show some of these guys hwo to do it.

Who's he gonna teach to play linebacker?

Derrick Johnson, who's probably not going to be re-signed?

Demorrio Williams, who's also likely to be told to walk once his deal is up?

He's a rental, and it's pretty likely with a roster this shallow that half of the players he's "mentoring" this year aren't going to be on the roster next year.

He's not just teaching linebackers. TG is worth more off the field than just to the other two TEs on your squad...

He was great for you guys, he fit the system. Part of that system is being smart enough to know when to cut a guy loose because he's got nothing left to give. I think Belichick is ****ing brilliant for getting anything for a guy that isn't an every-down player, who wouldn't have been on the team in 2010.

I agree, for now. Ask me again in November if one of our OLBs goes downs. Depth in August isn't the same as depth in November/December.

FAX
02-27-2009, 11:33 PM
I don't care what kind of a tutor/role model Vrabel may be, that is what coaches are for. I'm ****ing pissed that we traded for an old man. Even if it was a 7th round pick, it was too much. This trade sucks ass.

One of the few times (or only time, as I think about it) I must disagree with you, Mr. el borracho. Vrabel makes sense. Things have to change in the locker room and on the practice field as much as they need to change on the field of play.

I'm certain that Pioli knows that Vrabel is a dead linebacker walking. Therefore, his rationale for the trade has to be related to Vrabel's ability to translate the coaching staff's demands down to the player level. In a situation like ours, to have a trusted, experienced, proven player in that role is extremely valuable.

When you think about it, we don't have anyone like that. All we have are guys who have been part of a team that hasn't won much of anything except the adoration of the fans.

I remain confident in Pioli's decision-making.

FAX

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:36 PM
Just to establish that you need to get a bit more of a grip, here's the history fo Patriots drafts under BB/SP

And note how often the PATRIOTS trade late round picks for NFL players.

<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2008 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="4%" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td width="7%" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td colspan="4" align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">To New Orleans
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">1</td> <td align="center">10</td> <td width="25%" align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Jerod Mayo</td> <td width="7%" align="center">LB</td> <td width="22%" nowrap="nowrap">Tennessee</td> <td width="35%">From New Orleans, along with a 3rd (78), for a 1st (7) and a 5th (164)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">2</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">62</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Terrence Wheatley</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">CB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Colorado</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">3</td> <td align="center">69</td> <td colspan="4" align="left" nowrap="nowrap">To San Diego
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">3</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">78</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Shawn Crable</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">LB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Michigan</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From New Orleans (see above)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">3</td> <td align="center">94</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Kevin O'Connell</td> <td align="center" nowrap="nowrap">QB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">San Diego State</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">129</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Jonathan Wilhite</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">CB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Auburn</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">153</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Matt Slater</td> <td align="center" nowrap="nowrap">WR</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">UCLA</td> <td>From Tampa Bay for a 5th (160) and a 7th (238)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">5</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">160</td> <td colspan="4" align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">To Tampa Bay
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">164</td> <td colspan="4" align="left" nowrap="nowrap">To New Orleans
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">197</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Bo Ruud</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">LB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Nebraska</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">238</td> <td colspan="4" align="left" nowrap="nowrap">To Tampa Bay
</td></tr></tbody></table>

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:37 PM
<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2007 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">24</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Brandon Meriweather</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">S</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Miami (Fla.)</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Seattle for WR Deion Branch</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td colspan="5" align="center">To Miami as part of trade for WR Wes Welker</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td colspan="5" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">To Oakland in exchange for WR Randy Moss</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">127</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Kareem Brown</td> <td align="center">DL</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Miami (Fla.)</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">5</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">171</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Clint Oldenburg</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">OL</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Colorado State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">6</td> <td align="center">180</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Justin Rogers</td> <td align="center" nowrap="nowrap">LB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">SMU</td> <td>From Arizona for T Brandon Gorin</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">202</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Mike Richardson</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">CB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Notre Dame</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">6</td> <td align="center">208</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Justise Hairston</td> <td align="center" nowrap="nowrap">RB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Central Conn.</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">209</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Corey Hilliard</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">T</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Oklahoma State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">211</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Oscar Lua</td> <td align="center">LB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Southern Cal</td> <td>From Oakland, along with a 3rd in 2008, for a 3rd (91)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td colspan="5" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">To Miami as part of trade for WR Wes Welker</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">247</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Mike Elgin</td> <td align="center">C</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Iowa</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td></tr></tbody></table>
<table class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2006 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">21</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Laurence Maroney</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">RB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Minnesota</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="center">36</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Chad Jackson</td> <td align="center">WR</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Florida</td> <td>From Green Bay for a 2nd (52) and a 3rd (75)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">3</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">86</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Dave Thomas</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">TE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Texas</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">106</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Garrett Mills</td> <td align="center">FB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Tulsa</td> <td>From Detroit for a 5th (145) in 2005 and a 6th (206) in 2005</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">118</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Stephen Gostkowski</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">K</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Memphis</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">136</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Ryan O'Callaghan</td> <td align="center" nowrap="nowrap">T</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">California</td> <td>From Oakland, along with a 7th (230) in 2005, for a 6th (175) in 2005</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">191</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Jeremy Mincey</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">LB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Florida</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">6</td> <td align="center">205</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Dan Stevenson</td> <td align="center">G</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Notre Dame</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">206</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Le Kevin Smith</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">DL</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Nebraska</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">229</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Willie Andrews</td> <td align="center">DB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Baylor</td> <td> </td></tr></tbody></table>

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:37 PM
<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2005 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">32</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Logan Mankins</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">G</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Fresno State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">3</td> <td align="center">84</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Ellis Hobbs</td> <td align="center">CB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Iowa State</td> <td>From Baltimore, along with a 6th (195) in 2005 and a 3rd in 2006, for a 2nd (64)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">3</td> <td colspan="5" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">To Arizona as part of trade for CB Duane Starks</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">3</td> <td align="center">100</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Kick Kaczur</td> <td align="center">T</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Toledo</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">133</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">James Sanders</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">S</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Fresno State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td colspan="5" align="center">To Arizona as part of trade for CB Duane Starks</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">5</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">170</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Ryan Claridge</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">LB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Nevada-LV</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">230</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Matt Cassel</td> <td align="center">QB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">USC</td> <td>From Oakland, along with a 5th (136) in 2006, for a 6th (175, from Green Bay)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">255</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Andy Stokes</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">TE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">William Penn</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">Compensatory pick

</td></tr></tbody></table>

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:38 PM
<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2004 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">21</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Vince Wilfork</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">DT</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Miami (Fla.)</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Baltimore, along with a 2nd (41) in 2003, for a 1st (19) in 2003</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">1</td> <td align="center">32</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Benjamin Watson</td> <td align="center">TE</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Georgia</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">2</td> <td colspan="5" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">To Cincinnati in exchange for RB Corey Dillon</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="center">63</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Marquise Hill</td> <td align="center">DE</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">LSU</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">3</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">95</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Guss Scott</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">S</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Florida</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">113</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Dexter Reid</td> <td align="center">S</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">No. Carolina</td> <td>From New Orleans, along with a 3rd (78) in 2003 and a 7th (239) in 2003, for S Tebucky Jones</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">128</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Cedric Cobbs</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">RB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Arkansas</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">164</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">P.K. Sam</td> <td align="center">WR</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Florida State</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td colspan="5" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">To Pittsburgh in compensation for RFA Rodney Bailey</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">233</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Christian Morton</td> <td align="center">CB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Illinois</td> <td> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2003 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">13</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Ty Warren</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">DL</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Texas A&M</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Chicago for a 1st (14) and 6th (193)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="center">36</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Eugene Wilson</td> <td align="center">DB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Illinois</td> <td>From Houston, along with a 4th (117), for a 2nd (41) and 3rd (75)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">2</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">45</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Bethel Johnson</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">WR</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Texas A&M</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Carolina for a 2nd (50) and 4th (120)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">117</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Dan Klecko</td> <td align="center">DT</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Temple</td> <td>From Houston, along with a 2nd (36), for a 2nd (41) and 3rd (75)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">120</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Asante Samuel</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">CB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Central Florida</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Denver for a 4th (128) and 5th (157)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">164</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Dan Koppen</td> <td align="center">C</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Boston College</td> <td>From Tennessee, along with a 6th (201) and 7th (243), for a 5th (154) and 7th (225)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">201</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Kliff Kingsbury</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">QB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Texas Tech</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Tennessee, along with a 5th (164) and 7th (243), for a 5th (154) and 7th (225)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">234</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Spencer Nead</td> <td align="center">TE</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">BYU</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">239</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Tully Banta-Cain</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">LB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">California</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From New Orleans, along with a 3rd (78) in 2003 and a 4th in 2004, for Tebucky Jones</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">243</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Ethan Kelley</td> <td align="center">NT</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Baylor</td> <td>From Tennessee, along with a 5th (164) and 6th (201), for a 5th (154) and 7th (225)</td></tr></tbody></table>

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:38 PM
<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2002 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">21</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Daniel Graham</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">TE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Colorado</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Washington for a 1st (32), 3rd (96) and a 7th (234)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="center">65</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Deion Branch</td> <td align="center">WR</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Louisville</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">117</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Rohan Davey</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">QB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">LSU</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Denver for a 4th (131) and a 5th (144)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">126</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Jarvis Green</td> <td align="center">DL</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">LSU</td> <td>From Green Bay for WR Terry Glenn</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">237</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Antwoine Womack</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">RB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Virginia</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Dallas, along with a 5th in 2003, for a 5th (168)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">253</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">David Givens</td> <td align="center">WR</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Notre Dame</td> <td> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2001 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Richard Seymour</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">DL</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Georgia</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="center">48</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Matt Light</td> <td align="center">T</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Purdue</td> <td>From Detroit for a 2nd (50, from Pittsburgh) and a 6th (173, from San Francisco)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">3</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">86</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Brock Williams</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">CB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Notre Dame</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Minnesota (NE trades a 3rd (69) to Minnesota for a 3rd (86) and a 4th (119))</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">96</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Kenyatta Jones</td> <td align="center">T</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">South
Florida</td> <td>From San Diego (NE trades a 4th (112) and a 5th (139) to San Diego for a 4th (96))</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">119</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Jabari Holloway</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">TE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Notre Dame</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Minnesota (see Round 3)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">163</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Hakim Akbar</td> <td align="center">S</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Washington</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">180</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Arther Love</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">TE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">South Carolina
State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Detroit (NE trades a 5th (149) to Detroit for a 6th (180) and a 7th (216))</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">6</td> <td align="center">200</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Leonard Myers</td> <td align="center">CB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Miami (Fla.)</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">216</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Owen Pochman</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">K</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Brigham Young</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Detroit (see Round 6)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">239</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">T.J. Turner</td> <td align="center">LB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Michigan State</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td></tr></tbody></table>

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:38 PM
<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2000 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td colspan="5" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">To the NY Jets in compensation for Bill Belichick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="center">46</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Adrian Klemm</td> <td align="center">T</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Hawaii</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">3</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">76</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">J.R. Redmond</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">RB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Arizona State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">127</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Greg Robinson-Randall</td> <td align="center">T</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Michigan State</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">5</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">141</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Dave Stachelski</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">TE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Boise State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">161</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Jeff Marriott</td> <td align="center">DE</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Missouri</td> <td>From St. Louis for DE Mike Jones</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">187</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Antwan Harris</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">DB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Virginia</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">6</td> <td align="center">199</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Tom Brady</td> <td align="center">QB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Michigan</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">201</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">David Nugent</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">DE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Purdue</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td colspan="5" align="center">To San Francisco from Philadelphia</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">226</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Casey Tisdale</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">LB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">New Mexico</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">239</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Patrick Pass</td> <td align="center">FB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Georgia</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td></tr></tbody></table>

HemiEd
02-27-2009, 11:40 PM
I don't think he has a choice.

Besides, I don't believe he's a "me first" kind of player.

For Vrabel to be the team leader, a couple vets will have to go, maybe more. Waters, Gonzalez at least.

OnTheWarpath58
02-27-2009, 11:41 PM
Just to establish that you need to get a bit more of a grip, here's the history fo Patriots drafts under BB/SP

And note how often the PATRIOTS trade late round picks for NFL players.

Which is a great plan when you have a hole here and there to fill, or need someone in a complementary role, or as a special teamer.

But when you've gone 6-26 over the last two years and you can count the talented players you have on both hands, you need all the draft picks you can get.

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times:

I understand and value what he'll bring to the locker room NOW.

I'd have no problem with this had we signed him as a FA.

I just don't agree with the idea of a rebuilding team giving up picks for an aging, part-time player in his last year.

Tipford
02-27-2009, 11:42 PM
I know this may be a stupid question to ask, but if the Chiefs are moving to the 3-4 defence as their base defence next year, what are they going to do with a player like Glenn Dorsey? Right now in my opinion, he is a player without a position to play of this team. He just doesn't have the body type to be asked to pack on the pounds and move into the nose tackle position. Tank Tyler is hugely more suited to pack on the pounds and move into the space eating nose tackle to keep the opposing offensive line off the linebackers in a 3-4 scheme. We might as well try trading Dorsey at this point to a team like Tennessee, since they are looking for a replacement for Haynesworth.

Ultra Peanut
02-27-2009, 11:50 PM
Veteran leadership is nice, and all, but you have to have some talent in place before it can be led.

If it's a 7th rounder, whatever, but the overall shift in scheme and the lost opportunity to try to get a player capable of being around for more than two years is pretty disheartening if it's much more than that.

He is, of course, on the downside of his career. Last year there was a very noticeable dropoff in his ability to make impact plays. Whereas in years gone by he stood out on the field for making key plays, last year he wasn't very noticeable. That's good in that you didn't often look at him as having screwed something up, but it's bad in that he wasn't making the strip-sacks that had earned him the love of Patriots fans.He's a shell of his former self! I'm so excited!

I know this may be a stupid question to ask, but if the Chiefs are moving to the 3-4 defence as their base defence next year, what are they going to do with a player like Glenn Dorsey?Flush him down the toilet.

OnTheWarpath58
02-27-2009, 11:50 PM
Veteran leadership is nice, and all, but you have to have some talent in place before it can be led.

Exactly.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:53 PM
"It's still the guy with the most war stories who has the most impact and influence and has the power to set the tone."

"I think one of the lessons Belichick learned when he was coaching in Celveland was that the big-name players don't always make the best fit. . . . The players who were signed before the start of the 2001 season were all players brought here for specific reasons -- some for specialized skills, others for leadership, still otehrs fro a winning kind of attitude, but all because we were putting together a team, and tehse were some of the elements that were missing."

"Some examples: We acquired Bryan Cox, a veteran linebacker with talent but also a guy who brings an X-factor we needed for attitude. . . . He also brought in Anthony Pleasant, a defensive end he had drafted originally in Cleveland and a player he knew very well, one who would give us some veteran leadership on the defnsive line."

As coaches, we definitely felt we had substantially upgraded the team from where it had been in 2000. We didn't come in saying we had one of the most talented teams int he league, but Coach Belichick made sure all of us knew that we would have a team that was extremely strong mentally."

"After the workouts the players would talk to the coaches about responsibilities and also become use to the verbiage that we would be using. It was all preparation for the season and these guys wanted to do it. All it takes is a couple fo leaders to show the way. If one player told the others, 'Hey, I had a great meeting with Pepper', the next thing I knew there were three or four guys in my office."

Won for All by Pepper Johnson with Bill Gutman.

Pepper is currently the Pats, err, TE coach I think. He was DL coach for a stretch, and was with Belichick as a player with the Giants and Browns.

RustShack
02-27-2009, 11:54 PM
Maybe the Chiefs will run some crazy ass hybrid that the NFL has never seen.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:54 PM
For Vrabel to be the team leader, a couple vets will have to go, maybe more. Waters, Gonzalez at least.

NFL teams have multiple leaders, and Waters and TG are on the other side of the ball.

Amnorix
02-27-2009, 11:58 PM
But when you've gone 6-26 over the last two years and you can count the talented players you have on both hands, you need all the draft picks you can get.

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times:

I understand and value what he'll bring to the locker room NOW.

I'd have no problem with this had we signed him as a FA.

I just don't agree with the idea of a rebuilding team giving up picks for an aging, part-time player in his last year.

Seriously, have you read a single book on building a team? Go get Won for All or Management Secrets of teh New England Patriots or Patriots Reign or something to get some appreciation into the BB/SP system.

You're overly focused on talent. Do you think you mgiht draft ONE OR TWO defensive rookies THIS YEAR for that suck-ass defense of yours? Do you think having someone like Vrabel show him how to conduct himself on a path to NFL success might be slightly useful?

Do you think your ENTIRE roster will be flushed?

Fine -- do it your way. The Patriots, Colts and Steelers will continue to crush your squad as you focus exclusively on talent and ignore the other variables that are critical towards building a winning NFL football team

Mecca
02-27-2009, 11:58 PM
NFL teams have multiple leaders, and Waters and TG are on the other side of the ball.

I don't think Waters is going to be thought of as a team leader after what's been going on here...our team is full of soft players..

Personally when I saw the trade when I woke up today the first thing out of my mouth was "Scott Pioli thinks our team has no player leadership"

OnTheWarpath58
02-28-2009, 12:00 AM
"It's still the guy with the most war stories who has the most impact and influence and has the power to set the tone."

"I think one of the lessons Belichick learned when he was coaching in Celveland was that the big-name players don't always make the best fit. . . . The players who were signed before the start of the 2001 season were all players brought here for specific reasons -- some for specialized skills, others for leadership, still otehrs fro a winning kind of attitude, but all because we were putting together a team, and tehse were some of the elements that were missing."

"Some examples: We acquired Bryan Cox, a veteran linebacker with talent but also a guy who brings an X-factor we needed for attitude. . . . He also brought in Anthony Pleasant, a defensive end he had drafted originally in Cleveland and a player he knew very well, one who would give us some veteran leadership on the defnsive line."

As coaches, we definitely felt we had substantially upgraded the team from where it had been in 2000. We didn't come in saying we had one of the most talented teams int he league, but Coach Belichick made sure all of us knew that we would have a team that was extremely strong mentally."

"After the workouts the players would talk to the coaches about responsibilities and also become use to the verbiage that we would be using. It was all preparation for the season and these guys wanted to do it. All it takes is a couple fo leaders to show the way. If one player told the others, 'Hey, I had a great meeting with Pepper', the next thing I knew there were three or four guys in my office."

Won for All by Pepper Johnson with Bill Gutman.

Pepper is currently the Pats, err, TE coach I think. He was DL coach for a stretch, and was with Belichick as a player with the Giants and Browns.

Amno, that's great and all, but you still had some talent prior to that, regardless of the 5-11 record.

You had a franchise QB, 2 decent WRs, Milloy, Bruschi, Law, McGinest, Ted Johnson, Tebucky Jones, etc.

We have Dwayne Bowe, Branden Albert, Glenn Dorsey and Brandon Flowers. That's our current core.

This team needs talent for the leaders to lead.

doomy3
02-28-2009, 12:00 AM
I don't think Waters is going to be thought of as a team leader after what's been going on here...our team is full of soft players..

Personally when I saw the trade when I woke up today the first thing out of my mouth was "Scott Pioli thinks our team has no player leadership"

You woke up sometime after 1:30 today? Damn.

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 12:00 AM
Veteran leadership is nice, and all, but you have to have some talent in place before it can be led.

If it's a 7th rounder, whatever, but the overall shift in scheme and the lost opportunity to try to get a player capable of being around for more than two years is pretty disheartening if it's much more than that.


You overrate 5th and 6th round picks as well.

And Vrabes can help you with more than just one player. He can help your entire squad start walking down the path of winning.

You guys are incredible. The value you put on late round picks is truly mind-boggling. You're already fielding the kiddie-squad. You think another 22 year old drafted in the late rounds is "THE Answer"? Yeesh.

DaneMcCloud
02-28-2009, 12:02 AM
You overrate 5th and 6th round picks as well.

Says the guy who's team scored a first ballot HOFer with a 6th round pick.

:evil:

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 12:02 AM
I don't think Waters is going to be thought of as a team leader after what's been going on here...our team is full of soft players..

Personally when I saw the trade when I woke up today the first thing out of my mouth was "Scott Pioli thinks our team has no player leadership"

I would tend to agree, though I don't know about Waters' situation all that well.

Vrabel brings intelligence, toughness and leadership. I think a roster full of young pups could use all three, to be honest.

But if you want some long-shot 22 year old that isn't likely to be on an NFL roster in 3 years and won't add anything short or long-term, that's up to you guys I guess.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 12:02 AM
Amno, that's great and all, but you still had some talent prior to that, regardless of the 5-11 record.

You had a franchise QB, 2 decent WRs, Milloy, Bruschi, Law, McGinest, Ted Johnson, Tebucky Jones, etc.

We have Dwayne Bowe, Branden Albert, Glenn Dorsey and Brandon Flowers. That's our current core.

This team needs talent for the leaders to lead.

When we become a 3-4 team I'm not sure Glenn Dorsey will even be a part of that core.

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 12:02 AM
Says the guy who's team scored a first ballot HOFer with a 6th round pick.

:evil:

Yeah, but it was a stroke of lightning. Pats trade those picks coming and going like they're water.

The Bad Guy
02-28-2009, 12:02 AM
I don't think Waters is going to be thought of as a team leader after what's been going on here...our team is full of soft players..

Personally when I saw the trade when I woke up today the first thing out of my mouth was "Scott Pioli thinks our team has no player leadership"

He would be right.

Seriously, how the fuck could Waters and Gonzalez try to back Herm?

The only reason is because Herm gave them a country club atmosphere.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 12:03 AM
I would tend to agree, though I don't know about Waters' situation all that well.

Vrabel brings intelligence, toughness and leadership. I think a roster full of young pups could use all three, to be honest.

But if you want some long-shot 22 year old that isn't likely to be on an NFL roster in 3 years and won't add anything short or long-term, that's up to you guys I guess.

If it's a 6th round pick I'm not saying anything bad about it, but if we give up our 3 for Cassell I'm going to have a shit fit.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 12:04 AM
He would be right.

Seriously, how the fuck could Waters and Gonzalez try to back Herm?

The only reason is because Herm gave them a country club atmosphere.

Brian Waters is like a big mouthed self important leader and I've never considered Gonzalez a team leader, he's been a great player but I don't think he's "a leader" by any means.

Tony Gonzalez idea of leading is thinking about what's best for Tony Gonzalez.

OnTheWarpath58
02-28-2009, 12:04 AM
Seriously, have you read a single book on building a team? Go get Won for All or Management Secrets of teh New England Patriots or Patriots Reign or something to get some appreciation into the BB/SP system.

You're overly focused on talent. Do you think you mgiht draft ONE OR TWO defensive rookies THIS YEAR for that suck-ass defense of yours? Do you think having someone like Vrabel show him how to conduct himself on a path to NFL success might be slightly useful?

Do you think your ENTIRE roster will be flushed?

Fine -- do it your way. The Patriots, Colts and Steelers will continue to crush your squad as you focus exclusively on talent and ignore the other variables that are critical towards building a winning NFL football team

I've read Patriot Reign twice.

What the Patriots did in 2001 can't be used as a comparison. They already HAD TALENT. They weren't starting from scratch.

I'm not suggesting we ignore these other variables, but without some talent, it means nothing.

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 12:05 AM
Amno, that's great and all, but you still had some talent prior to that, regardless of the 5-11 record.

You had a franchise QB, 2 decent WRs, Milloy, Bruschi, Law, McGinest, Ted Johnson, Tebucky Jones, etc.

We have Dwayne Bowe, Branden Albert, Glenn Dorsey and Brandon Flowers. That's our current core.

This team needs talent for the leaders to lead.

The chances of you finding that talent in the later rounds are REMOTE.

And you underrate what toughness and intelligence can get you. The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles. One of those intangibles was a weak-ass schedule, but the Patriots and Jets had almost the same weak schedule and couldn't win more games than the 'phins. Part of that was ancillary stuff like injuries, etc., but don't ignore intangibles in the NFL.

This isn't the NBA where the team with the best 2-3 players wins every playoff series.

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 12:06 AM
I've read Patriot Reign twice.

What the Patriots did in 2001 can't be used as a comparison. They already HAD TALENT. They weren't starting from scratch.

I'm not suggesting we ignore these other variables, but without some talent, it means nothing.

I agree. We had more talent than you. We also had more team leadership than you.

Hell, you guys have NONE on the defensive side of the ball. ZERO. Zip, nada. You think you don't need leadership on the defensive side of teh ball? You're insane.

And you wonder why your defense flat sucks? It's more than talent. It's youth and lack of leadership and alot more besides.

You want to focus on TALENT exclusive of all else. That's absurd. It's TEAM, not just talent.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 12:07 AM
I agree. We had more talent than you. We also had more team leadership than you.

Hell, you guys have NONE on the defensive side of the ball. ZERO. Zip, nada. You think you don't need leadership on the defensive side of teh ball? You're insane.

And you wonder why your defense flat sucks? It's more than talent. It's youth and lack of leadership and alot more besides.

We haven't had a defensive leader in a decade man.

DaneMcCloud
02-28-2009, 12:07 AM
The chances of you finding that talent in the later rounds are REMOTE.

And you underrate what toughness and intelligence can get you. The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles. One of those intangibles was a weak-ass schedule, but the Patriots and Jets had almost the same weak schedule and couldn't win more games than the 'phins. Part of that was ancillary stuff like injuries, etc., but don't ignore intangibles in the NFL.

This isn't the NBA where the team with the best 2-3 players wins every playoff series.

The Dolphins "improved" because they only beat 2 teams with a winning record in 2008. They "improved" because they added several of "Parcells Guys" through trades and free agency. They "improved" so that the owner could sell the team for more money.

My guess is that they're no better than .500 in 2009.

Ultra Peanut
02-28-2009, 12:09 AM
You overrate 5th and 6th round picks as well.

And Vrabes can help you with more than just one player. He can help your entire squad start walking down the path of winning.

You guys are incredible. The value you put on late round picks is truly mind-boggling. You're already fielding the kiddie-squad. You think another 22 year old drafted in the late rounds is "THE Answer"? Yeesh.There is no one answer for this team. It's utterly bereft of talent outside of a few players who aren't even a good fit for the new system that's in place. If we drop a 4th rounder for a guy who can provide two or three years of diminished production, at most, it's fucking ridiculous.

There's a place for leadership, but I would rather upgrade the talent significantly first rather than trying to sprinkle some pixie dust on the turds who currently make up the team. You can do both, but my hope is just that we added the pixie dust for a reasonable price.

The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles.And they're going to fall right back off next year. Who cares about the Dolphins?

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 12:10 AM
We haven't had a defensive leader in a decade man.

And you haven't had a half-decent defense in a decade either.

Coincidence? I think not.

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 12:10 AM
The Dolphins "improved" because they only beat 2 teams with a winning record in 2008. They "improved" because they added several of "Parcells Guys" through trades and free agency. They "improved" so that the owner could sell the team for more money.

My guess is that they're no better than .500 in 2009.

I agree. But they still showed 10 games of improvement, and it wasn't just luck and a weak schedule.

OnTheWarpath58
02-28-2009, 12:11 AM
The chances of you finding that talent in the later rounds are REMOTE.

And you underrate what toughness and intelligence can get you. The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles. One of those intangibles was a weak-ass schedule, but the Patriots and Jets had almost the same weak schedule and couldn't win more games than the 'phins. Part of that was ancillary stuff like injuries, etc., but don't ignore intangibles in the NFL.

This isn't the NBA where the team with the best 2-3 players wins every playoff series.

No, I don't underrate toughness or intelligence.

I just don't think that 1 year of Jesus Vrabel is the answer to our problems, especially when there's a damn good chance that the majority of the players he's mentoring will be sent packing. Vrabel can "lead" the charge right out the door.

He's a 1 year rental. I don't see his "influence" carrying over for 3-5 years when this team is competing for a championship.

BigRock
02-28-2009, 12:12 AM
We give up 7th for Vrabel = anyone seriously complaining is a ree-tee-ard

We give up 6th for Vrabel = perfectly acceptable

We give up 5th for Vrabel = ehhhhhh

We give up 4th for Vrabel = WTF? No.

We give up 3rd for Vrabel =

http://i41.tinypic.com/2wp3xvl.gif

DaneMcCloud
02-28-2009, 12:13 AM
I agree. But they still showed 10 games of improvement, and it wasn't just luck and a weak schedule.

A major part of it WAS luck and a weak schedule.

First, they started out with the Wildcat.

Then as the veterans began to play together, the team improved.

The problem is that in 2010, they'll be back to square one.

An old, old team and very little youth on the roster.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 12:15 AM
I'm not saying yay or nay till we see what was given up...either way I expect alot of lower tiered cheap moves as opposed to 50 million for 1 guy.

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 12:15 AM
There's a place for leadership, but I would rather upgrade the talent significantly first rather than trying to sprinkle some pixie dust on the turds who currently make up the team. You can do both, but my hope is just that we added the pixie dust for a reasonable price.

First, if the team currently is a bunch of turds, then Pioli will likely cut alot of guys and be assembling from scratch. If not, then he'll keep a fair few players.

Either way, the team you see in 2009 will have the nucleus of the team going forward into 2010 and 2011. The team that wins tomorrow is being formed NOW. You need to show them how to get from the piece of crap the Chiefs currently call their team to a team that is "big, tough, strong, and competes for championships year after year", whcih is the BB/SP motto.

And you are going to spend one or more relatively high picks on the defnsive side of the ball. Thsoe guys are your future too. And they need leadership too.

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 12:16 AM
A major part of it WAS luck and a weak schedule.

First, they started out with the Wildcat.

Then as the veterans began to play together, the team improved.

The problem is that in 2010, they'll be back to square one.

An old, old team and very little youth on the roster.

I agree luck and a weak schedule did play a significant factor. They won't win 10 again.

But +10 wins isn't just luck and weak schedule. They won 1 freaking game last year. ONE.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:16 AM
The chances of you finding that talent in the later rounds are REMOTE.

And you underrate what toughness and intelligence can get you. The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles. One of those intangibles was a weak-ass schedule, but the Patriots and Jets had almost the same weak schedule and couldn't win more games than the 'phins. Part of that was ancillary stuff like injuries, etc., but don't ignore intangibles in the NFL.

This isn't the NBA where the team with the best 2-3 players wins every playoff series.

The Dolphins beat two teams with winning records. Two. They paid for a lot of FAs and signed a game manager to get up to that Carl Peterson era of mediocrity.

When they go 6-10 next year, people aren't going to be as impressed with that core.

Ultra Peanut
02-28-2009, 12:16 AM
I'm not saying yay or nay till we see what was given up...either way I expect alot of lower tiered cheap moves as opposed to 50 million for 1 guy.I hope we can be, like, the Oakland A's of the NFL.

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 12:18 AM
No, I don't underrate toughness or intelligence.

I just don't think that 1 year of Jesus Vrabel is the answer to our problems, especially when there's a damn good chance that the majority of the players he's mentoring will be sent packing. Vrabel can "lead" the charge right out the door.

He's a 1 year rental. I don't see his "influence" carrying over for 3-5 years when this team is competing for a championship.

I don't see much chance of the pick you gave up being on the team in 3-5 years.

Who knows. Maybe you gave up a 4th or something, which completely changes the complexion of this discussion. But mainly, I think it's a low pick and more likely than not you gave up very little to get someone who can help start rowing your team's boat in the right directon.

And you have no idea, and will never know, what influence Vrabel might have on the younger players that helps carry over 3-5 years down the road.

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 12:19 AM
The Dolphins beat two teams with winning records. Two. They paid for a lot of FAs and signed a game manager to get up to that Carl Peterson era of mediocrity.

When they go 6-10 next year, people aren't going to be as impressed with that core.

:shrug: 6-10 is probably about right.

But you're all missing the point I'm trying to make anyway, so forget it.

Night all.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 12:19 AM
Just please tell me Amnorix you don't think we're trading the 3rd pick for Cassell.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:21 AM
And people aren't understanding the anger over the Vrabel signing. Most of it stems from the move to a 3-4 which totally misuses our #5 overall pick from last year. To us, that seems ridiculously inflexible and hopelessly myopic. Whatever happened to fitting the scheme to suit your players.

Guys like Tamba Hali aren't world beaters, but he can give you 6-8 sacks from the left end position in the 4-3. That has value. Glenn Dorsey has Warren Sapp type ability in a 3-4, but he is too small to play the nose, and too short and too important to play the end.

Those guys are worth something, and if we are flushing their talents due to such a strong committment to a scheme which is no better than any other, I question the judgment involved in such move.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 12:23 AM
We went from a cover 2 coach to a 3-4 regime...pretty much every front 7 player Herm Edwards picked is now going to need to be replaced.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:27 AM
We went from a cover 2 coach to a 3-4 regime...pretty much every front 7 player Herm Edwards picked is now going to need to be replaced.

And that's what angers me.

Tomlin kept the 3-4 in Pittsburgh even though he's a Dungy disciple.

People need to realize that schemes are roughly equal. There is nothing in a 3-4 that makes it intrinsically better than a 4-3. So, if you have 4-3 talent, but no 3-4 talent, why waste that talent?

It just doesn't seem logical.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 12:31 AM
Well I don't think we should run cover 2, that scheme is outdated.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:34 AM
Well I don't think we should run cover 2, that scheme is outdated.

I don't like the Cover 2 either. We should just run a base 4-3 with elements of Cover 1 to augment for our lack of a rush and good corners. It fits the abilities of DJ, Dorsey, and Hali

kcchiefsus
02-28-2009, 12:34 AM
I just feel sorry for Vrabel. He is being forced to come from the best run franchise in the NFL to this shit hole.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 12:36 AM
It might just be me but I don't remotely care about Hali or DJ anymore they've had enough time to prove themselves and haven't.

Molitoth
02-28-2009, 12:43 AM
It might just be me but I don't remotely care about Hali or DJ anymore they've had enough time to prove themselves and haven't.

I second this....


Does anyone remember saying "scrap the whole damn thing and start over?"
It seems that was the chant last year on chiefs planet. Now that its happening people are freaking out, wtf?????

BradyFTW!
02-28-2009, 12:45 AM
Most of you probably don't care, but if you want to see a little bit of what Vrabel's about, check out this link: www nfl com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80747dba

wild1
02-28-2009, 12:48 AM
I am ok with Cassel, Stafford, Sanchez, whoever. So long as we get one.

I dont want us to trade the 3rd pick for Cassel. What if we traded picks with the Pats in the first round though?

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:48 AM
I second this....


Does anyone remember saying "scrap the whole damn thing and start over?"
It seems that was the chant last year on chiefs planet. Now that its happening people are freaking out, wtf?????

3% of my concern is about those two players.

97% is about Dorsey.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:48 AM
I am ok with Cassel, Stafford, Sanchez, whoever. So long as we get one.

I dont want us to trade the 3rd pick for Cassel. What if we traded picks with the Pats in the first round though?

That's worth our 2nd-7th round picks plus a first rounder next year.

Think about that.

FAX
02-28-2009, 12:58 AM
It might just be me but I don't remotely care about Hali or DJ anymore they've had enough time to prove themselves and haven't.

Warning, Will Robinson!!!

You might want to back up just a ding dang dimply darn moment there, Mr. Mecca. Our team has been coached by the most ineffective, ignorant, impotent, infantile, inept, inane, and imbecilic loggerheaded lumpenites ever to carry a whistle.

We don't know what we have. Especially on defense.

FAX

Woodrow Call
02-28-2009, 01:09 AM
http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/football/patriots/view/2009_02_28_Patriots_trade_defensive_leader_Mike_Vrabel_to_Chiefs:_Startling_swap/srvc=home&position=2

Patriots trade defensive leader Mike Vrabel to Chiefs
Startling swap
By Karen Guregian
Saturday, February 28, 2009 - Updated 41m ago


Mike Vrabel was one of Bill Belichick’s favorite players; that was no secret. He was one of the few Patriots [team stats] who could actually get away with being a bit of a class clown, and teasing the coach on occasion.

Vrabel was also one of the Pats’ most beloved and recognized players, having been a member of all three Super Bowl championships and making the Pro Bowl only a season ago.

That’s why the news of the veteran linebacker being traded to Kansas City was met with a sizable sense of shock and sadness yesterday.

“We’ve lost perhaps our best all-around football player. Defense, offense, special teams, Vrabes did it all,” Tedy Bruschi [stats] wrote in an e-mail. “His intelligence and on-field adjustments cannot be replaced. This team has just completely changed.”

Vrabel acknowledged the trade last night via e-mail, but declined to comment.

With Vrabel gone, and perhaps free agent safety Rodney Harrison [stats] opting to retire, the leadership dynamic on defense certainly will change.

Former Patriots linebacker Steve Nelson was completely taken aback when apprised of the trade.

“I guess that means they’re happy with their young outside linebackers. I don’t know. You’ve really caught me by surprise. He was really a great player for them,” Nelson said. “He was a real leader . . . that’s kind of a stunner.”

Vrabel was shipped to the Chiefs in exchange for an undisclosed draft choice. The popular outside linebacker was in Kansas City yesterday undergoing a physical before the deal was completed.

On the Chiefs side, it’s understandable why general manager Scott Pioli, who formerly ran the personnel operation in Foxboro, would want Vrabel’s veteran presence on his defense. Vrabel provides an immediate injection of the “Patriot Way” Pioli has been emphasizing and trying to implant since he took the Chiefs job.

So what gives from the Pats’ end? Might this be a precursor to another deal with KC involving Matt Cassel? And who is going to replace Vrabel at outside linebacker?

With the Pats hampered by Cassel’s $14.65 million cap charge thanks to his franchise tag tender, the club had to make room for yesterday’s signings of running back Fred Taylor [stats] and tight end Chris Baker.

The 33-year-old Vrabel was in the final year of his contract. He was expected to make $2.2 million in base salary, with a $1 million roster bonus, and count $4.3 million against the cap.

It’s possible KC could wind up as Cassel’s eventual landing spot but, for the time being, it appears the Vrabel trade was made to clear some immediate space.

Harrison, who is still undecided about his future, summed up his feelings in a few words.

“It’s business,” Harrison responded via text message, when asked his reaction to the Vrabel trade.

Nelson agreed, but still couldn’t fathom Vrabel being dealt.

“If it’s a matter of cap space, those are the difficult decisions teams have to make,” Nelson said. “But Vrabel is one of the guys I would think would be untouchable as far as, just (knowing the defensive) scheme, his versatility, his production. He might not have had the same production this year as he did last when he went to the Pro Bowl, but he played well at the end of the year. It’s just unfortunate you can’t let Vrabel retire on a team he should retire on.”

Vrabel did have an off-year by his standards. After his Pro Bowl season in which he led the team with 12 sacks, he had only four in 2008, while finishing fifth on the team in tackles with 62.
Click Here

While the linebacker denied having a shoulder problem during the season, a source close to him revealed Vrabel may now need surgery to repair the problem.

As for who will take his place, Pierre Woods is the likely candidate to play one outside linebacker spot opposite Adalius Thomas. The Pats also have 2008 third-round pick Shawn Crable, as well as recently re-signed Tully Banta-Cain.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 01:10 AM
Warning, Will Robinson!!!

You might want to back up just a ding dang dimply darn moment there, Mr. Mecca. Our team has been coached by the most ineffective, ignorant, impotent, infantile, inept, inane, and imbecilic loggerheaded lumpenites ever to carry a whistle.

We don't know what we have. Especially on defense.

FAX

I don't think any amount of coaching is going to make Tamba Hali better, he just isn't very talented.

wild1
02-28-2009, 01:27 AM
That's worth our 2nd-7th round picks plus a first rounder next year.

Think about that.

well i said that off the cuff. i didn't know where new england's pick was. maybe they could send us cassel and one of their picks to switch in the first.

in a way, it's superior to just selecting Stafford or whomever at #3. You get a QB, but in this case you get to pick again late in the first, plus again in the second or whatever else they send back to even it up

if you are religiously devoted to the 'value charts' then it won't make sense, but on a level it does

BryanBusby
02-28-2009, 01:31 AM
That's worth our 2nd-7th round picks plus a first rounder next year.

Think about that.

You act like Jimmy Johnsons draft trade chart is actually relevant. The Chiefs hold a pricey choice in the first round in a year that isn't exactly stacked with elite talent.

And that's what angers me.

Tomlin kept the 3-4 in Pittsburgh even though he's a Dungy disciple.

People need to realize that schemes are roughly equal. There is nothing in a 3-4 that makes it intrinsically better than a 4-3. So, if you have 4-3 talent, but no 3-4 talent, why waste that talent?

It just doesn't seem logical.

Pittsburgh already had a championship Defense in place while the Chiefs have a pile of shit that happens to collect on the field when the opposing offense steps on.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 01:35 AM
Oh great another "the draft chart is dumb" guy.

FAX
02-28-2009, 01:47 AM
I don't think any amount of coaching is going to make Tamba Hali better, he just isn't very talented.

You may be right about him, Mr. Mecca. Or he may have been coached terribly, or he may have been fighting injuries, or they may have screwed with his head, or hell, they may have ruined him forever for all I know. I'm convinced that Hali isn't playing up to his full potential - whatever it is.

The point is that, over the past 4 years or so, I've seen enough of our guys leave the Chiefs and become valuable and valued contributors for other, far more competitive teams than we are to believe that we shouldn't keep a weather eye out for individual improvement once a new staff gets ahold of them.

FAX

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 01:47 AM
well i said that off the cuff. i didn't know where new england's pick was. maybe they could send us cassel and one of their picks to switch in the first.

in a way, it's superior to just selecting Stafford or whomever at #3. You get a QB, but in this case you get to pick again late in the first, plus again in the second or whatever else they send back to even it up

if you are religiously devoted to the 'value charts' then it won't make sense, but on a level it does

Matt Stafford has a hell ofa lot more upside than Cassel could ever think of.

You trade for Cassel, you get him and the 23rd best player (thereabouts). You aren't going to save much money, and you are getting a QB with less long term upside.

Quality>Quantity

wild1
02-28-2009, 01:49 AM
that is fair enough.

you go with whomever you feel is the better long term solution at qb. hit on the QB and no one will even remember the details. if pioli and haley think that guy is cassel, i will go along for now. if they just pick stafford outright i will take it too.

BryanBusby
02-28-2009, 01:50 AM
Oh great another "the draft chart is dumb" guy.

The chart isn't dumb, just needs updated. For the note, I'd rather the Chiefs took a chance on Stafford or Sanchez (preferably Sanchez) than trading for Cassel, but a trade like that wouldn't be the worst thing ever.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 01:55 AM
The chart isn't dumb, just needs updated. For the note, I'd rather the Chiefs took a chance on Stafford or Sanchez (preferably Sanchez) than trading for Cassel, but a trade like that wouldn't be the worst thing ever.

It'd be pretty close to the worst thing ever...

Ultra Peanut
02-28-2009, 01:56 AM
Mike Vrabel was one of Bill Belichick’s favorite players; that was no secret.And yet he's willing to get rid of him. Says a lot about how useful he must be nowadays.

Count Alex's Losses
02-28-2009, 02:07 AM
And people aren't understanding the anger over the Vrabel signing. Most of it stems from the move to a 3-4 which totally misuses our #5 overall pick from last year. To us, that seems ridiculously inflexible and hopelessly myopic. Whatever happened to fitting the scheme to suit your players.

Guys like Tamba Hali aren't world beaters, but he can give you 6-8 sacks from the left end position in the 4-3. That has value. Glenn Dorsey has Warren Sapp type ability in a 3-4, but he is too small to play the nose, and too short and too important to play the end.

Those guys are worth something, and if we are flushing their talents due to such a strong committment to a scheme which is no better than any other, I question the judgment involved in such move.

This is a good post.

The answer may be that Pioli thinks Dorsey isn't worth a shit.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 02:09 AM
New regimes don't care about the past regimes players or high picks, ask Matt Leinart about that.

BryanBusby
02-28-2009, 02:10 AM
And yet he's willing to get rid of him. Says a lot about how useful he must be nowadays.

or it just shows Bill wants to get younger on D and free up cap space.

Short Leash Hootie
02-28-2009, 02:10 AM
Seriously, have you read a single book on building a team? Go get Won for All or Management Secrets of teh New England Patriots or Patriots Reign or something to get some appreciation into the BB/SP system.

You're overly focused on talent. Do you think you mgiht draft ONE OR TWO defensive rookies THIS YEAR for that suck-ass defense of yours? Do you think having someone like Vrabel show him how to conduct himself on a path to NFL success might be slightly useful?

Do you think your ENTIRE roster will be flushed?

Fine -- do it your way. The Patriots, Colts and Steelers will continue to crush your squad as you focus exclusively on talent and ignore the other variables that are critical towards building a winning NFL football team
I tried explaining this to him earlier...but he's a drafturbator...you can't reason with him.

BradyFTW!
02-28-2009, 02:35 AM
It'd be pretty close to the worst thing ever...

Worse than Herm Edwards coaching your team for 3 years?

smittysbar
02-28-2009, 03:39 AM
I am drunk, and not reading all of this, but if we didn't give up very much, I don;t mind it a bit.

Maybe this is exactly what we need, a worker! Blue fucking collar. What these young guys need, a winning attitude, and a guy who can teach a bunch of thugs and pussies a real work ethic......can't put a price on that.

I would like to see what we gave for him, but this place has gotten crazy lately. You can't have 24 year olds at every position, especially if they have never ran this system. He will be a great on field leader.

milkman
02-28-2009, 06:42 AM
Acutally, Patriots fans desperately hope that this is one part of a two step process to bring Peppers or someone here. We're REALLY thin at linebacker now!!

LMAO

CupidStunt
02-28-2009, 07:17 AM
We give up 7th for Vrabel = anyone seriously complaining is a ree-tee-ard

We give up 6th for Vrabel = perfectly acceptable

We give up 5th for Vrabel = ehhhhhh

We give up 4th for Vrabel = WTF? No.

We give up 3rd for Vrabel =

http://i41.tinypic.com/2wp3xvl.gif

EXACTLY right. Some of the knucklehead know-it-alls around here are just hilarious in their meltdowns.

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 07:38 AM
And people aren't understanding the anger over the Vrabel signing. Most of it stems from the move to a 3-4 which totally misuses our #5 overall pick from last year. To us, that seems ridiculously inflexible and hopelessly myopic. Whatever happened to fitting the scheme to suit your players.

Guys like Tamba Hali aren't world beaters, but he can give you 6-8 sacks from the left end position in the 4-3. That has value. Glenn Dorsey has Warren Sapp type ability in a 3-4, but he is too small to play the nose, and too short and too important to play the end.

Those guys are worth something, and if we are flushing their talents due to such a strong committment to a scheme which is no better than any other, I question the judgment involved in such move.

What about last year's defense suggests that sticking to the 4-3 is a good idea. Far as I can tell, based on your current personnel, you suck at 4-3.

So why not switch to 3-4. For a while you'll no doubt suck at both as you transition, but in 2-3 years, which is the real timeline you're looking at anyway, you'll finally get good at something, presumably.

Also, I don't understand why Dorsey can't hope to succeed in the 3-4. Maybe he won't be ideal, but he should work in some form or fashion.

Amnorix
02-28-2009, 07:39 AM
And that's what angers me.

Tomlin kept the 3-4 in Pittsburgh even though he's a Dungy disciple.

People need to realize that schemes are roughly equal. There is nothing in a 3-4 that makes it intrinsically better than a 4-3. So, if you have 4-3 talent, but no 3-4 talent, why waste that talent?

It just doesn't seem logical.

Because you have so little 4-3 talent it hardly matters?

Pioli Zombie
02-28-2009, 07:52 AM
Yes the chiefs must tailor their defense around the awesome talent they have in place. Oy effen Vay.
Posted via Mobile Device

RedThat
02-28-2009, 07:53 AM
Veteran leadership is nice, and all, but you have to have some talent in place before it can be led.

Patience my friend. There is some talent on this team, unfortunately, most of it is on the offensive side of the ball. But the draft is coming soon and I strongly feel that Pioli will be looking at the draft to add some young defensive talent on this team.

In addition to discussing about talent, I think that was part of the whole plan when Herm Edwards took over the team?

Get rid of most of the veterans on the roster, rebuild the roster from scratch and load it with an abdunance of youth and talent. And as a consequence, the roster went from being "old" to too "young". Therefore, it also lacked veteran leadership in the process.

I think this move is a classic example in large part of understanding your teams situation and the dynamics that evolve around it.

mlyonsd
02-28-2009, 07:56 AM
Because you have so little 4-3 talent it hardly matters?

My thinking is this trade makes picking Curry at #3 a no brainer. Vrabel could make a leadership impact, especially with the other LB's. Drafting the best one available and having Vrabel around 1-2 years teaching him makes sense.

RedThat
02-28-2009, 07:58 AM
My thinking is this trade makes picking Curry at #3 a no brainer. Vrabel could make a leadership impact, especially with the other LB's. Drafting the best one available and having Vrabel around 1-2 years teaching him makes sense.

Yup. Good point.

Blindside58
02-28-2009, 08:04 AM
Tedy Bruschi-LB-Patriots Feb. 28 - 8:39 am et

Tedy Bruschi responded via email to the Boston Herald regarding the trade of longtime teammate and close friend Mike Vrabel.
"We’ve lost perhaps our best all around football player," he said. "Defense, offense, special teams, Vrabes did it all. His intelligence and on field adjustments can not be replaced. This team has just changed immensely." With Vrabel gone, Bruschi's leadership on the New England defense will become even more important.
Source: Boston Herald

txhawk
02-28-2009, 08:34 AM
And people aren't understanding the anger over the Vrabel signing. Most of it stems from the move to a 3-4 which totally misuses our #5 overall pick from last year. To us, that seems ridiculously inflexible and hopelessly myopic. Whatever happened to fitting the scheme to suit your players.

Guys like Tamba Hali aren't world beaters, but he can give you 6-8 sacks from the left end position in the 4-3. That has value. Glenn Dorsey has Warren Sapp type ability in a 3-4, but he is too small to play the nose, and too short and too important to play the end.

Those guys are worth something, and if we are flushing their talents due to such a strong committment to a scheme which is no better than any other, I question the judgment involved in such move.
Outside of the young dbacks, this defense is screaming for an identity. The existing talent is marginal at best. Tamba Hali is flat out a bust this far. Sorry, the guy's just not that good. For where he was drafted, 6-8 sacks a season is weaker than snake shit.

And I think it's safe to say that DJ is underperforming for his salary and draft position.

Dorsey, based on one season, was terrible. But he at least has upside and perhaps trade value.

Point being in this all said is SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO CUT YOUR LOSSES. The way things have been are unacceptable, and this old regime way of thinking some of you have is really quite unfortunate. THIS WILL NOT BE THE SAME TEAM. New management wants to show their merit and worth, and falling back on what was done here in the past equates to jack shit! Get used to it, because that's just the way of today's NFL.

But to suggest the 3-4 defense is not quickly becoming the best style of Defense is absurd. The confusion it creates for an opposing offense is wonderful thing to watch.

Pioli Zombie
02-28-2009, 08:55 AM
You don't play to the mistakes you made in the past or else you keep the mistake going.
Posted via Mobile Device

tmax63
02-28-2009, 08:55 AM
Maybe giving DJ a little bit of a guide on how to be a pro-bowl lb will help him reach his potential???? I'm not thrilled if the Chiefs gave up anything more than a 6th but they got a player who "does it the right way", is infinitely familiar with the system that may be installed, is an improvement over almost all the lb's on the roster and is a consumate team player. He will be a "coach on the field" and when he walks into the locker room wearing 3 rings I would expect that he will command a little respect. Young pups can find their way eventually but if they got a smart old hound to lead the way they'll get there faster. I'm not turning cartwheels here but I'm not ready to say dropping a late drop pick on him was the biggest mistake so far.

el borracho
02-28-2009, 09:42 AM
Who's he gonna teach to play linebacker?

Derrick Johnson, who's probably not going to be re-signed?

Demorrio Williams, who's also likely to be told to walk once his deal is up?

He's a rental, and it's pretty likely with a roster this shallow that half of the players he's "mentoring" this year aren't going to be on the roster next year.

You and I are in complete agreement. I don't hate Vrabel; I don't think I'm smarter than Pioli; I just don't like trading for short-term benefit and/or intangibles.

el borracho
02-28-2009, 09:50 AM
One of the few times (or only time, as I think about it) I must disagree with you, Mr. el borracho. Vrabel makes sense. Things have to change in the locker room and on the practice field as much as they need to change on the field of play.

I'm certain that Pioli knows that Vrabel is a dead linebacker walking. Therefore, his rationale for the trade has to be related to Vrabel's ability to translate the coaching staff's demands down to the player level. In a situation like ours, to have a trusted, experienced, proven player in that role is extremely valuable.

When you think about it, we don't have anyone like that. All we have are guys who have been part of a team that hasn't won much of anything except the adoration of the fans.

I remain confident in Pioli's decision-making.

FAX

I do value vet leadership but (apparently) not as much as others. I think that role could have been equally served by someone already on the squad or a free-agent; I just detest the idea of sacrificing draft picks for it. I don't know... perhaps I under-value that service :shrug:

el borracho
02-28-2009, 09:59 AM
First, if the team currently is a bunch of turds, then Pioli will likely cut alot of guys and be assembling from scratch. If not, then he'll keep a fair few players.

Either way, the team you see in 2009 will have the nucleus of the team going forward into 2010 and 2011. The team that wins tomorrow is being formed NOW. You need to show them how to get from the piece of crap the Chiefs currently call their team to a team that is "big, tough, strong, and competes for championships year after year", whcih is the BB/SP motto.

And you are going to spend one or more relatively high picks on the defnsive side of the ball. Thsoe guys are your future too. And they need leadership too.

Nothing to do with this post in particular but, Wow! I can't recall seeing you so fired up about something on here. I hope you are correct but, as of now, I don't see this as a good (or necessary) trade. In any case, I do appreciate your insider's view so, thank you.

Chiefnj2
02-28-2009, 10:02 AM
Look at the reaction of the Pats fans. They don't like losing him one bit. It's a good pickup provided it was a late round pick that was lost.

OnTheWarpath58
02-28-2009, 10:07 AM
You and I are in complete agreement. I don't hate Vrabel; I don't think I'm smarter than Pioli; I just don't like trading for short-term benefit and/or intangibles.

That's all I'm saying.

el borracho
02-28-2009, 10:14 AM
It might just be me but I don't remotely care about Hali or DJ anymore they've had enough time to prove themselves and haven't.

Not just you- Hali sucks and needs replacing ASAP, DJ is invisible.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 10:47 AM
What about last year's defense suggests that sticking to the 4-3 is a good idea. Far as I can tell, based on your current personnel, you suck at 4-3.

So why not switch to 3-4. For a while you'll no doubt suck at both as you transition, but in 2-3 years, which is the real timeline you're looking at anyway, you'll finally get good at something, presumably.

Also, I don't understand why Dorsey can't hope to succeed in the 3-4. Maybe he won't be ideal, but he should work in some form or fashion.

For one, our talent at 4-3 isn't wholly non-existent.

We ran a Cover 2 because Herm was hopelessly tied to it. A Cover 2 without a pass rush is basically a prevent defense.

We have a top 5 pick who is a Warren Sapp-like one gap penetrator, a LDE who put up 8 sacks in each of his first two years, and a SLB who, for all of his inconsistency, shows flashes of brilliance.

This team has the talent to be a good 4-3 attacking defense. Yes, we need upgrades at 2/3 LB spots and we need a right end. In the 3-4, we need upgrades everywhere.

And I've still yet to see a convincing argument that the 3-4 is an inherently better scheme than a 4-3.

But the main reason goes back to Dorsey.

If we had drafted Earl Campbell, how would people feel about splitting him out like the Rams did Marshall Faulk? A 3-4 is a complete waste of his abilities. He's not a space eater, he's a pocket collapser. He's not as tall as a guy like Richard Seymour, he's not suited to play a 3-4 end.

Chiefnj2
02-28-2009, 10:48 AM
You don't design your entire defense around Dorsey.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 10:56 AM
Outside of the young dbacks, this defense is screaming for an identity. The existing talent is marginal at best. Tamba Hali is flat out a bust this far. Sorry, the guy's just not that good. For where he was drafted, 6-8 sacks a season is weaker than snake shit.

And I think it's safe to say that DJ is underperforming for his salary and draft position.

Dorsey, based on one season, was terrible. But he at least has upside and perhaps trade value.

Point being in this all said is SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO CUT YOUR LOSSES. The way things have been are unacceptable, and this old regime way of thinking some of you have is really quite unfortunate. THIS WILL NOT BE THE SAME TEAM. New management wants to show their merit and worth, and falling back on what was done here in the past equates to jack shit! Get used to it, because that's just the way of today's NFL.

But to suggest the 3-4 defense is not quickly becoming the best style of Defense is absurd. The confusion it creates for an opposing offense is wonderful thing to watch.

How many LDEs give you more than 8 sacks a year? It's a small list. Aaron Kampman, Julius Peppers, Jevon Kearse way back in the day. I'm not saying that Hali is a pro bowl LDE, but he is an above average player at that position. No, he's not Reggie White, but defenses don't have 11 pro bowlers on them.

Johnson is again best suited as a downhill player. He led the league in TFL two years ago, it's not like he doesn't have talent. But when you are in a read and react defense, it causes you to lose your aggression. It's not a coincidence that guys like Kawika Mitchell leave and then become productive players elsewhere. Our coaching has been horrible for over a decade on the defensive side of the ball.

And I can show you the results. The average finish of the 3-4 defenses vs. the 4-3 defenses are virtually identical.

Schemes don't win games. Players do. The only reason the Ravens D was worth a shit was because of Haloti Ngata, Terrell Suggs, and Ed Reed.

Pittsburgh's D is carried by Harrison, Woodley, Polamalu, and Hampton.

Those teams have an embarrassment of riches. It's the same for the old Bucs teams, 6-7 PBs on one side of the ball, or the 2000 Ravens, a 4-3 team loaded with talent.

htismaqe
02-28-2009, 11:05 AM
Not just you- Hali sucks and needs replacing ASAP, DJ is invisible.

We can't say definitively that anyone on this defense sucks until we've seen them play under a coach not named Gunther...

Chiefnj2
02-28-2009, 11:08 AM
Schemes don't win games. Players do. .

Players win games when they are schemes that fit their skillset.

Chiefshrink
02-28-2009, 11:23 AM
For all those against giving up a 7th for Vrabel, just ask the Cowboys about the importance of leadership. All that talent and can't even make the playoffs. What would Vrabel say and do to T.O. inside that locker room? Wouldn't be pretty but I bet the Cowboys get their sh** straight.

Yes it sucks giving up a pick win you only had 7 to begin but if we had 10-13 picks this yr it would probably be a non-issue. More importantly I think the fact that Pioli did give up a pick with only 7 to start with says he might be tipping his hand a bit that he will attempt to trade down to get more picks and may have found a suitor for that already. Who knows?

Either or I'm glad we have some good solid leadership in Vrabel and pleeeeeeeeeeease let Pioli do his job !!!!!!!!!

Good post Amnorix!!!!!

Chiefless
02-28-2009, 11:32 AM
I like the thinking behind the move for a fifth or lower. Whether it works or not remains to be seen. KC DOES sorely need defensive leadership before it can adequately determine what talent it has on that side of the ball...IMO.

Has someone set up a poll for this yet? I'd like to see where the planet weighs in as a whole.

oldandslow
02-28-2009, 11:34 AM
For all those against giving up a 7th for Vrabel, just ask the Cowboys about the importance of leadership. All that talent and can't even make the playoffs. What would Vrabel say and do to T.O. inside that locker room? Wouldn't be pretty but I bet the Cowboys get their sh** straight.

Yes it sucks giving up a pick win you only had 7 to begin but if we had 10-13 picks this yr it would probably be a non-issue. More importantly I think the fact that Pioli did give up a pick with only 7 to start with says he might be tipping his hand a bit that he will attempt to trade down to get more picks and may have found a suitor for that already. Who knows?

Either or I'm glad we have some good solid leadership in Vrabel and pleeeeeeeeeeease let Pioli do his job !!!!!!!!!

Good post Amnorix!!!!!


+1

htismaqe
02-28-2009, 11:34 AM
I for one am gonna be pissed if we gave up the next Kevin Robinson for Vrabel...

JASONSAUTO
02-28-2009, 11:35 AM
I for one am gonna be pissed if we gave up the next Kevin Robinson for Vrabel...

ROFL or michael merritt

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 11:39 AM
Players win games when they are schemes that fit their skillset.

Thanks for that shocking revelation.

JASONSAUTO
02-28-2009, 11:39 AM
Thanks for that shocking revelation.

ROFL

DTLB58
02-28-2009, 11:41 AM
I'm was good with this the second I got the text message yesterday that it had happened.

In fact, just hours earlier I had said Pioli needs to sprinkle in some veterans to this team.

Good move IMO. :clap:

smittysbar
02-28-2009, 11:41 AM
ROFL or michael merritt

It will set this franchise back light years

JASONSAUTO
02-28-2009, 11:42 AM
It will set this franchise back light years

for sure.:D some people just dont get it

smittysbar
02-28-2009, 11:45 AM
for sure.:D some people just dont get it

If this were to happen, we would just have to get lucky and pick up a Dextor McCleon type player, this I believe would get us back on top.

JASONSAUTO
02-28-2009, 11:46 AM
If this were to happen, we would just have to get lucky and pick up a Dextor McCleon type player, this I believe would get us back on top.

or resign bartee, thats the ticket

smittysbar
02-28-2009, 11:49 AM
I would like to see Ryan Sims come back as QB, I mean we have invested so much in him over the years.......could you imagine Ryan in the WILDCAT!!!!!!

Now I have you excited!

JASONSAUTO
02-28-2009, 11:51 AM
I would like to see Ryan Sims come back as QB, I mean we have invested so much in him over the years.......could you imagine Ryan in the WILDCAT!!!!!!

Now I have you excited!

damn i dont know if i can even come close to that one smitty:D



oh oh kendrell bell could be the pistol back WITH sims in the shotgun

Short Leash Hootie
02-28-2009, 12:41 PM
I for one am gonna be pissed if we gave up the next Kevin Robinson for Vrabel...

my thoughts exactly