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Chiefaholic
02-27-2009, 10:16 PM
Every player is important to a team reguardless of position. What good is a great QB is his O-Line blows chunks? What good is a great HB if his first cut is two yards behind the line of scrimmage (excluding Barry Sanders)? What good is a great DE if the DT's can't collapse the pocket? What good is a great CB is the opposing QB has 5-7 seconds to complete a pass?

Rank a team in what you think should be the order of importance....

1. QB
2. DE
3. OT
4. DT
5. HB
6. WR
7. OLB
8. ILB
9. C
10. CB
11. TE
12. OG
13. K
14. SS
15. FS
16. P
17. FB

brain1081
02-27-2009, 11:06 PM
This is really tough but....

1. QB (it's the only position in which there is only one and it's never subbed for except injury)
2. OT
3. DE
4. OG
5. DT
6. C
*if you can't tell I think OL and DL are really important* :)
7. LB (sorry but I'm grouping them altogether, otherwise they'd just be 7 and 8 like you did)
8. CB
9. HB
10. S (again I'm grouping Safeties together)
11. WR
12. K
13. FB
14. P
15. TE (I could easily switch this with FB or WR depending on the team and player, for instance with TG I put this at 11, WR at 13, and FB at 15)

aturnis
02-27-2009, 11:25 PM
1. QB
2. DE
3. OT
4. DT
5. HB
6. WR
7. OLB
8. ILB
9. C
10. CB
11. TE
12. OG
13. K
14. SS
15. FS
16. P
17. FB

You've got the Guards and Center mixed up. Guards, at least from an athletically gifted standpoint are more important than the center. Center needs to be smart though.

Also, I really like that you put your DE ahead of your OT. A great DE is underrated, while a good OT is overrated most times. Most times, a really good OT will do just as well for your team as a GREAT offensive tackle. DE's though, are hard to find. Derrick Thomas's don't come around often.

blueballs
02-27-2009, 11:56 PM
Kill off Saturn and Buick
and all crossovers

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-27-2009, 11:59 PM
4-3

QB
RDE
LT
DT (3 technique)
WR 1
CB
HB
MLB
FS
SS
NT
CB 2
ROLB
LOLB
RT
TE
LG
RG
C

kcchiefsus
02-28-2009, 12:07 AM
4-3

QB
RDE
LT
DT (3 technique)
WR 1
CB
HB
MLB
FS
SS
DT (under tackle)
CB 2
ROLB
LOLB
RT
TE
LG
RG
C

Three technique and the under tackle are the same thing.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:16 AM
Three technique and the under tackle are the same thing.

I'm tired. I just wrote it twice.

Darth CarlSatan
02-28-2009, 12:23 AM
1. QB
2. OT
3. DE
4. DT
5. WR( such a pass-oriented game these days )
6. CB ( " " " " " " " )
7. HB
8. ILB / OLB( What kind of scheme are we running here? )
9.
10. C
11. OG
12. FS
13. SS
14. TE
15. K
16. P
17. FB

Count Zarth
02-28-2009, 12:24 AM
How can you put center so far down the list?

Darth CarlSatan
02-28-2009, 12:27 AM
How can you put center so far down the list?

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. I see your point though, and it WAS kind of a bitch to move it down that far.

Darth CarlSatan
02-28-2009, 12:30 AM
You were referring to Hamas; my bad.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:30 AM
How can you put center so far down the list?

Think about where most of those players get drafted.

Elite players of all positions, save everyone right of the LT, go in the top 20 picks.

I don't think a center has gone in the first for years, and not above 20 in probably 15 or so.

The fact of the matter is that you can find good interior lineman through UDFA and the late rounds.

Think about Waters, Jeff Saturday, Kris Dielman, Matt Birk. There are scores of these guys.

Count Zarth
02-28-2009, 12:31 AM
I was talking to Hamas.

10 is about right IMO

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:33 AM
I was talking to Hamas.

10 is about right IMO

Who affects a game more?

Troy Polamalu and Ed Reed or Matt Birk or Kevin Mawae?

Count Zarth
02-28-2009, 12:34 AM
Think about where most of those players get drafted.

Elite players of all positions, save everyone right of the LT, go in the top 20 picks.

I don't think a center has gone in the first for years, and not above 20 in probably 15 or so.

The fact of the matter is that you can find good interior lineman through UDFA and the late rounds.

Think about Waters, Jeff Saturday, Kris Dielman, Matt Birk. There are scores of these guys.

IMO, that's just because it takes less physical talent to play the position.

It doesn't make the position less important.

If the worst starter on your team is the center, you might have some problems.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:39 AM
IMO, that's just because it takes less physical talent to play the position.

It doesn't make the position less important.

If the worst starter on your team is the center, you might have some problems.

Centers have far less of an affect on games than any other position, unless you count snapping the ball as a paramount skill, which anyone who has played high school ball, can do.

Count Zarth
02-28-2009, 12:39 AM
Who affects a game more?

Troy Polamalu and Ed Reed or Matt Birk or Kevin Mawae?

I think safety is SLIGHTLY more important than center, but only because a safety is the last line of defense.

I think center is more important than OLB, G, RT....maybe LDE.....it's certainly more important than K, P, FB.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 12:39 AM
The Jets have the highest drafted center in the league, is that doing them any good right now?

Count Zarth
02-28-2009, 12:41 AM
Centers have far less of an affect on games than any other position, unless you count snapping the ball as a paramount skill, which anyone who has played high school ball, can do.

What about making line calls, picking up blitzes, that sort of thing?

Who was more important on the Chiefs' line in 2003? Wiegmann or Tait? I guess you could say Shields was more important, but he was a hall of fucking famer.

Count Zarth
02-28-2009, 12:41 AM
The Jets have the highest drafted center in the league, is that doing them any good right now?

Shit, does this mean I am a true fan?

I loves me some centers.

Tim Grunhard was my sweet baboo.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:43 AM
I think safety is SLIGHTLY more important than center, but only because a safety is the last line of defense.

I think center is more important than OLB, G, RT....maybe LDE.....it's certainly more important than K, P, FB.

Ok...

So you have the choice between the following players

Derrick Brooks in his prime
Will Shields in his prime
Dan Dierdorff in his prime
Kevin Mawae in his prime
Patrick Kearney

Who are you taking?

Mecca
02-28-2009, 12:43 AM
Having the best center in football is like having the shiniest nickel.

Darth CarlSatan
02-28-2009, 12:44 AM
Shit, does this mean I am a true fan?

I loves me some centers.

Tim Grunhard was my sweet baboo.

ROFLROFLROFL

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:44 AM
What about making line calls, picking up blitzes, that sort of thing?

Who was more important on the Chiefs' line in 2003? Wiegmann or Tait? I guess you could say Shields was more important, but he was a hall of fucking famer.

Not being an idiot doesn't mean that you are a vital cog to the machine.

Any center should be able to make line calls. The fact that the MLB makes calls for the D doesn't make him more important than the right end.

Darth CarlSatan
02-28-2009, 12:48 AM
Not being an idiot doesn't mean that you are a vital cog to the machine.

Any center should be able to make line calls. The fact that the MLB makes calls for the D doesn't make him more important than the right end.


ROFLROFLROFL Now THIS is some quality posting tonight!

God DAMN! Everyone is getting SO wound up over one deal/pick out of 20-plus more to come; this going to be an EPIC shitstorm!
ROFL

Count Zarth
02-28-2009, 12:49 AM
Ok...

So you have the choice between the following players

Derrick Brooks in his prime
Will Shields in his prime
Dan Dierdorff in his prime
Kevin Mawae in his prime
Patrick Kearney

Who are you taking?

What the fuck is 250-pound Dierdorf doing up there?

I'd take Dermontti Dawson over that whole list. He was as good as Shields. If my front four is good enough it doesn't matter how good the OLB is, as long as he's a lunchpail type with a bit of speed and coverage abilities, I'm fine. He doesn't need to make amazing plays.

I don't wany my center fucking up blitz protection, sorry. I need my quarterback.

Anyway, this is better than talking to transvestites.

Count Zarth
02-28-2009, 12:51 AM
Any center should be able to make line calls.


What about that bi-polar mouth-breather that flamed out in Oakland?


The fact that the MLB makes calls for the D doesn't make him more important than the right end.

RDE = LT

LT > C

I'm standing firm.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:51 AM
What the fuck is 250-pound Dierdorf doing up there?

I'd take Dermontti Dawson over that whole list. He was as good as Shields. If my front four is good enough it doesn't matter how good the OLB is, as long as he's a lunchpail type with a bit of speed and coverage abilities, I'm fine. He doesn't need to make amazing plays.

I don't wany my center fucking up blitz protection, sorry. I need my quarterback.

Anyway, this is better than talking to transvestites.

Again, there are some smart players, like Rudy Niswanger. It doesn't mean he's worth a shit as a center, even if he gets his line calls right. Again not being a moron doesn't mean you're a good player, it only means that you aren't being automatically cut for dumbassery.

Count Zarth
02-28-2009, 12:53 AM
You're right, he's not really worth a shit as a center.

The Chiefs need a better center. Someone who can make line calls AND is physically capable of playing the position.

SEE HOW IMPORTANT CENTER IS?

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:54 AM
What about that bi-polar mouth-breather that flamed out in Oakland?

A nutjob who went AWOL in the super bowl probably isn't the most honest counterargument you can proffer.

You don't seem me offering up Dimitrious Underwood as an example of the worthlessness of DE's, do you?

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:54 AM
You're right, he's not really worth a shit as a center.

The Chiefs need a better center. Someone who can make line calls AND is physically capable of playing the position.

That's what the middle rounds are for.

Count Zarth
02-28-2009, 12:55 AM
I don't like it when we fight. :(

Darth CarlSatan
02-28-2009, 12:56 AM
You're right, he's not really worth a shit as a center.

The Chiefs need a better center. Someone who can make line calls AND is physically capable of playing the position.

SEE HOW IMPORTANT CENTER IS?

Call your "Sweet Baboo"; last interview I heard with him, he was itchin' to play again! :D

Count Zarth
02-28-2009, 12:58 AM
Call your "Sweet Baboo"; last interview I heard with him, he was itchin' to play again! :D

Grunhard is probably a strike against me. That guy was a great center and proved he was a retard after football without a doubt.

Maybe any retard CAN make line calls.

I'd still like to know what makes guard more important than center. One-on-one matchups? Centers have to match up with 3-4 NTs.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 12:58 AM
I don't like it when we fight. :(

It's a reasoned disagreement. We can agree to disagree.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 01:00 AM
Grunhard is probably a strike against me. That guy was a great center and proved he was a retard after football without a doubt.

Maybe any retard CAN make line calls.

I'd still like to know what makes guard more important than center. One-on-one matchups? Centers have to match up with 3-4 NTs.

Centers always get help on those guys. Think about how often teams run off guards and how often guards pull out in space as opposed to centers

Count Zarth
02-28-2009, 01:11 AM
Yeah, then there's the Fumblerooski.

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suds79
02-28-2009, 01:14 AM
1. QB (by a mile. 2nd place is pretty far off)
2. RDE
3. LT
4. DT
5. HB (important but super easy to find.) Mid to late rounders mostly)
6. WR
7. OLB
8. CB
9. ILB
10. TE
11. C
12. OG
13. K (again very important but guys you find late or undrafted)
14. SS
15. FS
16. P
17. FB

That's for 4-3. If you're talking 3-4, Pretty much exchange DEs & OLBs since the OLBs are your pass rushers.

aturnis
02-28-2009, 01:31 AM
Well, I think Hamas has a point. Are you ranking them according to how important it is you have a stud athletically, or mentally?

Here's Scott Wright's top centers in this years draft:

Alex Mack
Max Unger
Eric Wood
Jonathan Luigs
Antoine Caldwell
A.Q. Shipley

Mack is obvious the most gifted physically, but if he scores and interviews a little bit lower than say, Wood or Luigs, and is only a notch or two ahead of them in his technique, then I'd say Wood or Luigs is going to be the better value, if not the better center. Mack is a late 1st, early 2nd guy. The other two are anywhere from mid 2nd, to mid 4th.

Is Mack really the best option? Given the importance of your Olineman is LT, RT, LG, RG, C, and I'd say that is more fact than opinion, but that's just me.

aturnis
02-28-2009, 01:35 AM
1. QB (by a mile. 2nd place is pretty far off)
2. RDE
3. LT
4. DT
5. HB (important but super easy to find.) Mid to late rounders mostly)
6. WR
7. OLB
8. CB
9. ILB
10. TE
11. C
12. OG
13. K (again very important but guys you find late or undrafted)
14. SS
15. FS
16. P
17. FB


Wouldn't you think your safety's have more of a direct effect of keeping the opponents score low, than the center has of making the offenses score high?

BradyFTW!
02-28-2009, 01:45 AM
1. QB
2. DT
3. DE
4. OT
5. OG
6. WR
7. OLB
8. C
9. ILB
10. FS
11. HB
12. TE
13. SS
14. CB
15. K
16. P
17. FB

suds79
02-28-2009, 01:46 AM
Wouldn't you think your safety's have more of a direct effect of keeping the opponents score low, than the center has of making the offenses score high?

Yeah on second thought, you're probably right.

Seems like some of the upper echelon teams have a bigtime Saftey.

I won't fight ya on what I generally believe to be not all that high of importance positions. :p

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 01:47 AM
1. QB
2. DT
3. DE
4. OT
5. OG
6. WR
7. OLB
8. C
9. ILB
10. FS
11. HB
12. TE
13. SS
14. CB
15. K
16. P
17. FB

:spock:

BradyFTW!
02-28-2009, 01:52 AM
Wouldn't you think your safety's have more of a direct effect of keeping the opponents score low, than the center has of making the offenses score high?

Good centers can be huge in blitz protection, and the ones who can chip and get upfield well in run blocking can be bigtime difference makers. I definitely see where you're coming from and think you have a valid point, but I think that they're of very similar importance. A case could be made either way- really depends a lot on the schemes, IMO. There isn't a center in the NFL who has an Ed Reed-level impact on his team, though, that's for sure.

BradyFTW!
02-28-2009, 01:56 AM
:spock:

After watching the Pats' guards almost singlehandedly lose the 2007 SB (doublehandedly? They were both fucking terrible), I will never undervalue the position again.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 02:01 AM
After watching the Pats' guards almost singlehandedly lose the 2007 SB (doublehandedly? They were both fucking terrible), I will never undervalue the position again.

Yeah, but going from horrendous to competent doesn't make the position itself valuable. It just makes the horrendous players poor.

Say you get average guard play and fantastic safety and corner play. You win a lot more with that combo than outstanding guard and center play and average corner and safety play.

BradyFTW!
02-28-2009, 02:04 AM
Yeah, but going from horrendous to competent doesn't make the position itself valuable. It just makes the horrendous players poor.

Say you get average guard play and fantastic safety and corner play. You win a lot more with that combo than outstanding guard and center play and average corner and safety play.

In a vacuum, it's hard to really say. How good is the team's pass rush? How good is the QB at making quick reads against blitzes? How's the slot receiver? Depending on those factors, I think it could go either way. If I were building a team, I'd go from the trenches out, as my rankings reflect. There are a ton of good ways to build a team, though, and there are certainly systems where your safeties are two of the most important positions on your roster. IMO CBs are a lot less important since the contact rules got 'reemphasized' back in 2005. They can't even breathe on a WR anymore without being called for a PI, which really limits their options, and means that pretty much any CB is going to get beat if the pass rush doesn't get there quickly (except freaks like Champ Bailey, anyways).

Cover-2 CBs have always struck me as pretty replaceable types, too.

aturnis
02-28-2009, 02:06 AM
Sorry guys, I'm with Hamas tonight. His opinions in this thread are about spot on with mine. Which I think, are more or less pretty solid views. Though I understand, it's hard to rate the entire teams positions by important without going through them one by one first.

milkman
02-28-2009, 04:56 AM
What good is a great QB is his O-Line blows chunks?

Ben Roethlisberger says you can win a SB even if your O-Line blows chunks.

Darth CarlSatan
02-28-2009, 05:00 AM
Ben Roethlisberger says you can win a SB even if your O-Line blows chunks.

Rothlesberger has the distinct advantage of being a big boy with a Center that can seem to hold 'em back long enough( in most cases )for him to make a sound decision or a decent escape.


Just sayin'...