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View Full Version : Chiefs Amalgamation of Thoughts on Cassel


'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 07:36 PM
From the Cassel Rumors thread a month ago:

no thanks

High 2 is too much to pay for Cassel.

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Because we want a franchise QB, not a college and NFL backup.

Exactly.

Derek Anderson, Part II.

Signing/trading for Cassel is what this franchise has done since Dawson retired other the Blackledge and Croyle, they have never tried to get their own QB. I'm sorry if dumbfucks want to keep doing status quo.

Yep plus the whole idea of Matt Cassel being a good QB is stupid. I would rather take my chance with Thigpen or draft Stafford or Sanchez.

That is such an absurd statement on it's face.

Matt Cassel sure does look good when staring at Stafford and Sanchez?

Why? Because he's older, sat for a few years to learn a system, and performed admirably in an offense loaded with great players?

Matt Cassel couldn't beat out Stafford or Sanchez if all three were in college at the same time, so the only reason he would look better than either now is because he's older and has actually played in the NFL.

I think it's nuts to think Cassel is so far above Stafford/Sanchez, yet he would ride the pine behind both in college. You can't discount the two QBs simply because they haven't had the chance to play pro ball yet.

If Cassel excelled in the NFL, then there's absolutely no reason to think Stafford or Sanchez wouldn't do as well or better in a similar system.

If the Chiefs don't take a QB and the guy they pass on one or both of them turn into franchise QB, all of the same people that didn't want a QB will be calling them stupid fucks.

A: What makes Cassel's situation so fascinating to me, dapats, is that there is no right answer. It only takes one team to take the plunge. At the Super Bowl, I asked a variety of NFL analysts their thoughts on what Cassel might yield in a trade, and there was no consensus. It ranged widely, in fact. My feeling is that any team trading for Cassel will need to factor in that 55 percent of the Patriots' offense came after the catch this season, easily the highest figure in the NFL.

Lets see what Thigpen can do.

threads like this make me wish genocide upon the kc fan base....

When I think of Matt Cassel, I think of Steve Bono.

Bono, like Cassel, wasn't the starter in college, was drafted in the sixth round, who, when he got a chance to start for a team laden with talent looked like a viable NFL QB.

Sure, when he came to the Chiefs, he went to a pro bowl, but he was a mediocre QB.

I see Cassel being essentially the same guy.


...

DaFace
02-28-2009, 07:38 PM
ROFL

Thig Lyfe
02-28-2009, 07:40 PM
I'm glad I never had a particularly strong opinion about Cassel one way or the other.

I like the trade. I think Pioli knows what he's getting more than any of us do, seeing as he drafted him and oversaw his development for the last four years.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 07:42 PM
And I will still say I'm not thrilled about it.

Pablo
02-28-2009, 07:43 PM
I think Pioli knows what he's getting more than any of us do, seeing as he drafted him and oversaw his development for the last four years.U better STFU...Scott don't know his ass from a gopher's dick, ya hear me?

mikey23545
02-28-2009, 07:43 PM
The Gang of Fourteen are going to have some sandy 'giners tonight....

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 07:44 PM
And I will still say I'm not thrilled about it.

You're taking it a fuck of a lot better than I am.

Basileus777
02-28-2009, 07:44 PM
I've been one of the few who have consistently defended him. I didn't want to trade for him because I never thought we could get him for just a 2nd rounder.

Adept Havelock
02-28-2009, 07:44 PM
The Gang of Fourteen are going to have some sandy 'giners tonight....

On the plus side, pearl production should skyrocket.

I've been one of the few who have consistently defended him. I didn't want to trade for him because I never thought we could get him for just a 2nd rounder.

That's where I'm at. I think it was a decent trade for a 2nd. JMNSHO. :shrug:

Mr. Krab
02-28-2009, 07:44 PM
The Gang of Fourteen are going to have some sandy 'giners tonight....
This
posted via mobile device

Mecca
02-28-2009, 07:45 PM
You're taking it a fuck of a lot better than I am.

I'm keeping it in because I don't feel like having a 20 page thread argument on Saturday night while I sit in 6 inches of snow.

I have 1 positive thing to say about it, atleast I don't have to watch Thigpen anymore.

DeezNutz
02-28-2009, 07:46 PM
You're taking it a **** of a lot better than I am.

It's a USC player. What did you expect?

Had to **** with you, Mecca. But I'm sure the intent of this post will be skewed by others.

DaKCMan AP
02-28-2009, 07:46 PM
I've been one of the few who have consistently defended him. I didn't want to trade for him because I never thought we could get him for just a 2nd rounder.

Somewhat. You think/thought it's more likely he's not a franchise QB.



I wasn't thrilled to learn of the trade, but I hope this is one of those rare occasions where I'm wrong.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 07:49 PM
It's a USC player. What did you expect?

Had to **** with you, Mecca. But I'm sure the intent of this post will be skewed by others.

Ha I almost said that, well he's from USC!

Atleast it wasn't for the 3rd pick like some people were guessing that would have been horrible.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-28-2009, 07:50 PM
how original

has anyone learned anything from the last 15 years of clown school in KC?

screw rebuilding with our own QB...let sign Cassell, look at stats he's totally awesome and dreamy and I'm sure the team and coaches he plays with have nothing to do with it and he'll put up the exact same stats here because that's what box scores are for like seeing stats and believing they make you smart like Carl and we can get Daniel in the 2nd which is a steal for stats like that where's my camero it has great stats too so it must be still be cool in the year 2008 right guys?

.

notorious
02-28-2009, 07:50 PM
Atleast it wasn't for the 3rd pick like some people were guessing that would have been horrible.


My thoughts exactly. I would have went into full meltdown mode if that would have happened.

JASONSAUTO
02-28-2009, 07:50 PM
Ha I almost said that, well he's from USC!

Atleast it wasn't for the 3rd pick like some people were guessing that would have been horrible.

yeah we got a good return for a 2nd round pick compared to what some trades in recent years have been

Basileus777
02-28-2009, 07:51 PM
Somewhat. You think/thought it's more likely he's not a franchise QB.



I wasn't thrilled to learn of the trade, but I hope this is one of those rare occasions where I'm wrong.

I have my doubt about whether he is a franchise QB. But I have my doubts about Sanchez too. If I thought we had a shot at Stafford I would be upset, but I can live with Cassel considering what we gave up for him. I'm not sure he was my first choice, but I like him enough that I'm willing to get behind this move.

doomy3
02-28-2009, 07:52 PM
I've been one of the few who have consistently defended him. I didn't want to trade for him because I never thought we could get him for just a 2nd rounder.

I have too, and I love the trade. And we keep our pick at 3. Hopefully we can trade back and get a second back. If not, Raji or Curry are good for me.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 07:52 PM
Well if he completely blows it won't be considered a good return...when a guy was throwing to Moss and Welker and then he comes here there's going to be a huge change.

Simply Red
02-28-2009, 07:52 PM
I've been gone all day, is the board about split on this signing?

JASONSAUTO
02-28-2009, 07:53 PM
Well if he completely blows it won't be considered a good return...when a guy was throwing to Moss and Welker and then he comes here there's going to be a huge change.

by the tape i've seen he puts the ball in some pretty good spots, granted they were all highlight reels lately, but watching him on tv he also didnt look too bad

Mr. Krab
02-28-2009, 07:54 PM
I don't think anyone originally wanted Cassel for the Franchise Tag type price. A second round pick for Cassel and Vrabel is a bargain even if Cassel isn't Payton Manning.

The main cost now is Cassel's contract.

doomy3
02-28-2009, 07:54 PM
I've been gone all day, is the board about split on this signing?

No, most seem to be on board with it. There are around 5 people who are all up in arms about it.

wazu
02-28-2009, 07:54 PM
I've been gone all day, is the board about split on this signing?

According to the poll, it's about 87% in favor of it.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=203333

Basileus777
02-28-2009, 07:54 PM
I've been gone all day, is the board about split on this signing?

Not nearly as much as you'd think. I expected a full-on backlash, but most people seem alright with it.

notorious
02-28-2009, 07:56 PM
I've been gone all day, is the board about split on this signing?

You get called a idiot if you are not fully behind Pioli. He is a god, or so I've been told.

Most people are for the trade since we didn't give up as much as first thought for Cassel and Vrabel being thrown in sweetened it a little.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 07:56 PM
Well alot of people get on board with anything, even when Carl was here.

DaFace
02-28-2009, 07:56 PM
Not nearly as much as you'd think. I expected a full-on backlash, but most people seem alright with it.

The fact that 1) we still have our pick at #3 and 2) Vrabel was included in the deal made it much easier to swallow for most I think.

chiefs1111
02-28-2009, 07:57 PM
Ha I almost said that, well he's from USC!

Atleast it wasn't for the 3rd pick like some people were guessing that would have been horrible.

I think I would of had a meltdown if that happened.

mikey23545
02-28-2009, 07:57 PM
I've been gone all day, is the board about split on this signing?

Sort of...There's only 14 guys on the "hate it" side, but their psyches account for almost 90% of egotism on the BB...

KCCHIEFS27
02-28-2009, 07:57 PM
I'm keeping it in because I don't feel like having a 20 page thread argument on Saturday night while I sit in 6 inches of snow.

I have 1 positive thing to say about it, atleast I don't have to watch Thigpen anymore.

Just wait until Thigpen beats out Cassell to be the starter.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 07:58 PM
Hey guys I just talked to Tyler Thigpen he said....

"I'm the starting QB of the team Tony Gonzalez says so and he's the real GM!"

chiefs1111
02-28-2009, 07:58 PM
Hey guys I just talked to Tyler Thigpen he said....

"I'm the starting QB of the team Tony Gonzalez says so and he's the real GM!"

ROFL

chiefforlife
02-28-2009, 07:59 PM
I am excited as I called it days ago. Curry at #3 and trade our second rounder for Cassel. Vrabel was a bonus.
Pioli and I think alike.:D

the Talking Can
02-28-2009, 08:00 PM
I wanted Stafford more than any player ever for the Chiefs. The way people have downplayed his talent is freaking criminal. One knuckle dragging moron after another, who never even watched him play. And when he is lighting it up in the NFL I will be there to remind the True Fans...all of them. I will shove Stafford up their ass sideways.

But I knew it would never happen.

So now I hope Cassel isn't Scott Mitchell, or Matt Schaub even.

What I like about the trade - separate from the question of Cassel's merits - is that Pioli got what he wanted, and got it for a good deal, and got the whole league buzzing about it.

That tells me he is serious, aggressive, and smart. And that will reap us benefits eventually if not already.

New coach, gm, staff, QB....a final and total gutting has taken place. We aren't timid anymore, on the field or off.

So, we'll see. As much as I want to be angry about Cassel, I'm not. I'm excited because we have someone in control with a plan, someone willing to shake it up. For now, I'm cool with that.

KcFanInGA
02-28-2009, 08:01 PM
pioli pullin strings
would belicheck have done this for anyone else? nope. works 4 me

KcFanInGA
02-28-2009, 08:02 PM
but i am pullin for thigpen

FRCDFED
02-28-2009, 08:02 PM
I personally wanted to give Thigpen another year at the helm. He did pretty well considering KC has been unable to develop a starting QB. Being coached by any staff assembled by CP was/is a career killer for QB's.

What we get with Cassel is a QB that has been groomed under the tuteledge of Belicheck, McDaniel, and Pioli. I'm not saying that means Cassel is guaranteed to be successful but they were able to develop Brady who was a 7th rounder. I would have to think that Cassel would have a better chance of being successful than Thigpen.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 08:03 PM
but i am pullin for thigpen

Tyler Thigpen just got told to shut the fuck up, same for any of the other players that said he deserved to be the QB.

Our front office is smart enough to look at Thigpen and the spread and go "da fuck is that stupid shit" so I give them that credit.

the Talking Can
02-28-2009, 08:03 PM
I personally wanted to give Thigpen another year at the helm.

but i am pullin for thigpen



you should get together and drink antifreeze

Mecca
02-28-2009, 08:04 PM
That's funny them saying that since Thigpen not playing anymore is my major positive to this.

notorious
02-28-2009, 08:06 PM
Yikes. Thigpin is yesterday' news now.

Simply Red
02-28-2009, 08:07 PM
Well, I have to say a few things, it does scream youth, it'll light a fire under Thiggy's butt to play harder and gives him a challenge (I suppose) plus we still have that first sitting there (stating the obv)

:)

Yeah, overall? I'm down.

DeezNutz
02-28-2009, 08:07 PM
It will be interesting to see if Thigpen survives cuts, to be honest.

Simply Red
02-28-2009, 08:08 PM
It will be interesting to see if Thigpen survives cuts, to be honest.

yeah, i don't know.

The Bad Guy
02-28-2009, 08:09 PM
Why is it a big surprise that good QBs have weapons?

I keep hearing the "he won't have Moss and Welker" argument.

Of course he won't.

That's when it's on the coaches to put Dwayne Bowe and Tony Gonzalez in position to make plays.

But typically, the real good QBs in the NFL have real good weapons on the outside.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 08:09 PM
I wonder if Tony Gonzalez is upset...

The Bad Guy
02-28-2009, 08:10 PM
I wanted Stafford more than any player ever for the Chiefs. The way people have downplayed his talent is freaking criminal. One knuckle dragging moron after another, who never even watched him play. And when he is lighting it up in the NFL I will be there to remind the True Fans...all of them. I will shove Stafford up their ass sideways.

But I knew it would never happen.

So now I hope Cassel isn't Scott Mitchell, or Matt Schaub even.

What I like about the trade - separate from the question of Cassel's merits - is that Pioli got what he wanted, and got it for a good deal, and got the whole league buzzing about it.

That tells me he is serious, aggressive, and smart. And that will reap us benefits eventually if not already.

New coach, gm, staff, QB....a final and total gutting has taken place. We aren't timid anymore, on the field or off.

So, we'll see. As much as I want to be angry about Cassel, I'm not. I'm excited because we have someone in control with a plan, someone willing to shake it up. For now, I'm cool with that.

Beautiful post.

RedThat
02-28-2009, 08:10 PM
Well if he completely blows it won't be considered a good return...when a guy was throwing to Moss and Welker and then he comes here there's going to be a huge change.

I don't think it's gonna be that much of a change.

As it stands now, he has Gonzalez and Bowe. And those guys are no sloutches.

Provided that, Gonzalez stays. He is going to have Really good weapons to throw the ball to.

NFL16
02-28-2009, 08:12 PM
Keep in mind I think most of those opinions were before Pioli and Haley were brought in. That might of changed a couple minds.... or not.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 08:13 PM
I don't think it's gonna be that much of a change.

As it stands now, he has Gonzalez and Bowe. And those guys are no sloutches.

Provided that, Gonzalez stays. He is going to have Really good weapons to throw the ball to.

Eh Bowe is a nice player and all but he's not Moss...plus the Chiefs really have no one to stretch the field with.

He also comes from a team that doesn't really throw to it's TE...

CupidStunt
02-28-2009, 08:15 PM
The biggest issue is very simple: The Chiefs have the No. 3 pick in a VERY shaky draft for QBs. Very shaky, according to every single reputable draftnik other than self-proclaimed experts like Mecca.

If they had the No. 1 pick and it was 2003 or 2004, or even 2006, damn right the entire fan base would be f**king irate.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 08:15 PM
Cool shot at me, always a good move.

the Talking Can
02-28-2009, 08:18 PM
The biggest issue is very simple: The Chiefs have the No. 3 pick in a VERY shaky draft for QBs. Very shaky, according to every single reputable draftnik other than self-proclaimed experts like Mecca.

If they had the No. 1 pick and it was 2003 or 2004, or even 2006, damn right the entire fan base would be f**king irate.

nonsense

complete hogwash and bullshit

RedThat
02-28-2009, 08:21 PM
Eh Bowe is a nice player and all but he's not Moss...plus the Chiefs really have no one to stretch the field with.

He also comes from a team that doesn't really throw to it's TE...

I agree with some of your takes. Bowe is a nice solid receiver, definately not a Randy Moss thats for sure.

I would like for this team to add a receiver that can stretch the field.

Even though, Cassel comes from a team that doesn't throw much to the TE, I still think Gonzalez has the versitility to excel in any type of offense. He proved himself last year. I just liked the fact you can line him up in different slots. He showed he can play the slot. Which is great if your running a spread shotgun formation. He practically has the versitility to play in any formation. Tony just adds another dimension/element to your passing game. I honestly hope we keep Tony.

CupidStunt
02-28-2009, 08:25 PM
nonsense

complete hogwash and bullshit

Which part?

MAYBE some complete moron fans would still be happy with Cassel, but for the most part people would be up in arms. Those were CONSENSUS franchise QB prospects. Hell, I was on board with a QB at three this year, but I was never convinced. Cassel is a good option. Take me back to 2003 and a shot at Carson Palmer and I'm taking the QB at No. 1 overall.

FRCDFED
02-28-2009, 08:25 PM
Probably the biggest knock on Thigpen was that he would lock in on TG almost every play. Hopefully Cassel can progress through his reads and keep the defense honest.

kcpasco
02-28-2009, 08:26 PM
If we had to give up our first I would have been fucking pissed

But we didn't

Iowanian
02-28-2009, 08:26 PM
You can stop with the flagellation now. Cassel is a Chief and there is nothing you can do about it but trade him in madden 10

Mecca
02-28-2009, 08:28 PM
Probably the biggest knock on Thigpen was that he would lock in on TG almost every play. Hopefully Cassel can progress through his reads and keep the defense honest.

I think his biggest knock was that he needed a gimmick offense to even be able to play.

RJ
02-28-2009, 08:29 PM
Why is it a big surprise that good QBs have weapons?

I keep hearing the "he won't have Moss and Welker" argument.

Of course he won't.

That's when it's on the coaches to put Dwayne Bowe and Tony Gonzalez in position to make plays.

But typically, the real good QBs in the NFL have real good weapons on the outside.



Good post. How many great quarterbacks have lousy receivers?

Hint: The answer is none.

Ryan and Flacco had solid rookie seasons but if the Falcons and Ravens don't upgrade their receivers they're destined to have mediocre careers.....Archie Manning -like, at best.

chiefs1111
02-28-2009, 08:30 PM
I wonder if Tony Gonzalez is upset...

Nah,Tony will say the same stuff about Cassel that he's said about Thigpen and Huard and Croyle. That the Chiefs have their qb and looks forward to the upcoming season. The same shit he's always spouting off.

doomy3
02-28-2009, 08:32 PM
Good post. How many great quarterbacks have lousy receivers?

Hint: The answer is none.

Ryan and Flacco had solid rookie seasons but if the Falcons and Ravens don't upgrade their receivers they're destined to have mediocre careers.....Archie Manning -like, at best.

I would love to have mediocre receivers like Roddy White and Michael Jenkins.

FRCDFED
02-28-2009, 08:32 PM
I think his biggest knock was that he needed a gimmick offense to even be able to play.Noted. Give Gailey credit for making lemonade. I hope this season we have credibility on both sides of the ball. We are going to need couple of more FA to supplement the draft. Somehow Herm missed that whole concept (as much as others).

Mecca
02-28-2009, 08:33 PM
I would love to have mediocre receivers like Roddy White and Michael Jenkins.

Roddy White is a really good player, Michael Jenkins not so much.

doomy3
02-28-2009, 08:34 PM
Roddy White is a really good player, Michael Jenkins not so much.

Michael Jenkins is much better than anything we have for a #2 receiver. And Roddy White is one of the best in the league.

Chocolate Hog
02-28-2009, 08:35 PM
Hamas shoulda posted my quotes on Cassell.

RJ
02-28-2009, 08:35 PM
I would love to have mediocre receivers like Roddy White and Michael Jenkins.


Ryan made White a better receiver, not so much with Jenkins.

tk13
02-28-2009, 08:36 PM
I think more important for Ryan and Flacco is they both had very strong running games. The Falcons had Michael Turner and the Ravens had a good 1-2 punch. So it was never a constant thing where the QB always had to carry the offense every week.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 08:36 PM
Michael Jenkins is just one of those big slow WR's.

FD
02-28-2009, 08:39 PM
I think if our GM was anybody else in the league, the board would be up in arms, even with it only being the 2nd round pick. And I'd be with them.

But when its the guy wearing 3 Superbowl rings, whose known Cassel since he drafted him, watched him practice, watched him play, and knows talent better than about anybody else in the NFL, you give him the benefit of the doubt.

Halfcan
02-28-2009, 08:42 PM
Chiefs are just a few players away from having a very awesome team.

jjchieffan
02-28-2009, 08:43 PM
Biggest downside to this trade: The return of Mecca's baby eating sig!

Mecca
02-28-2009, 08:43 PM
Chiefs are just a few players away from having a very awesome team.

You mean like 20?

Halfcan
02-28-2009, 08:44 PM
I think if our GM was anybody else in the league, the board would be up in arms, even with it only being the 2nd round pick. And I'd be with them.

But when its the guy wearing 3 Superbowl rings, whose known Cassel since he drafted him, watched him practice, watched him play, and knows talent better than about anybody else in the NFL, you give him the benefit of the doubt.

:clap: great comment-I could not agree more.

JASONSAUTO
02-28-2009, 08:44 PM
Chiefs are just a few players away from having a very awesome team.

you know that couldnt have been said a couple of days ago even, now you might be right(and yes i am a homer)

RedThat
02-28-2009, 08:45 PM
I would like to see some more veteran players added on this team. Particularily on defense.

Honestly, this team is still filled with a bunch kids. That needs to change a bit.

DeezNutz
02-28-2009, 08:45 PM
Chiefs are just a few players away from having a very awesome team.

Remember this statement when only a few players from the Herm regime are still on the team in 2 years.

Mecca
02-28-2009, 08:45 PM
Biggest downside to this trade: The return of Mecca's baby eating sig!

My baby eating av rules, stop lyin.

jjchieffan
02-28-2009, 08:52 PM
I think if our GM was anybody else in the league, the board would be up in arms, even with it only being the 2nd round pick. And I'd be with them.

But when its the guy wearing 3 Superbowl rings, whose known Cassel since he drafted him, watched him practice, watched him play, and knows talent better than about anybody else in the NFL, you give him the benefit of the doubt.

This

chiefforlife
02-28-2009, 08:53 PM
My baby eating av rules, stop lyin.

Its a hell of a lot better than the Sanchez stuff.

dirk digler
02-28-2009, 08:57 PM
I said in the Cassel thread I am not a fan and think he is a 1-year wonder but I will cheer him on and hope he does good.

That doesn't change that the Chiefs just robbed the Pats blind

DeezNutz
02-28-2009, 09:00 PM
I said in the Cassel thread I am not a fan and think he is a 1-year wonder but I will cheer him on and hope he does good.

That doesn't change that the Chiefs just robbed the Pats blind

I am going to write a complete sentence to indicate to my audience that I agree with the majority of this post, save the "robbed" portion, because, in truth, it was just a fair exchange.

Let no one call me a lazy poster.

dirk digler
02-28-2009, 09:06 PM
I am going to write a complete sentence to indicate to my audience that I agree with the majority of this post, save the "robbed" portion, because, in truth, it was just a fair exchange.

Let no one call me a lazy poster.

I only said that they robbed them because in the past QB's trades have cost alot more than just a 2nd round pick.

Bwana
02-28-2009, 09:09 PM
We need a turck load of tampex to take care of some of the people.

Thig Lyfe
02-28-2009, 09:09 PM
This

That

Sam Hall
02-28-2009, 11:53 PM
Here's a couple sites for the people unhappy with the Cassel trade:

http://www.thelionsfanatics.com/

http://lionsfansonline.com/forum

http://www.lions-fans.com/

BigMeatballDave
03-01-2009, 12:01 AM
I'd be pissed if we traded a 1st for him. I'm OK with it. I would've loved Stafford/Sanchez.

Simply Red
03-01-2009, 12:04 AM
I don't want to debate anyone. But, I like the deal.

BigMeatballDave
03-01-2009, 12:04 AM
I'm keeping it in because I don't feel like having a 20 page thread argument on Saturday night while I sit in 6 inches of snow.

I have 1 positive thing to say about it, atleast I don't have to watch Thigpen anymore.You like him. He's a Trojan, why wouldn't you? :D

BigMeatballDave
03-01-2009, 12:13 AM
Well if he completely blows it won't be considered a good return...when a guy was throwing to Moss and Welker and then he comes here there's going to be a huge change.Gonzales/Bowe caught 2 more passes than Moss/Welker.

BigMeatballDave
03-01-2009, 12:15 AM
Well alot of people get on board with anything, even when Carl was here.So far, I'm pleased with everything. Guess I'm still on a "Carl is finally gone" High...

Pasta Giant Meatball
03-01-2009, 12:15 AM
Gonzales/Bowe caught 2 more passes than Moss/Welker.

With a guy described as wildly inaccurate throwing the ball to Gonzo and Bowe most of the year.

Mecca
03-01-2009, 12:16 AM
Well Tyler Thigpens idea of passing was to just throw it to Gonzalez no matter how many guys were on him.

kcpasco
03-01-2009, 12:21 AM
Well Tyler Thigpens idea of passing was to just throw it to Gonzalez no matter how many guys were on him.

Gonzo was the only one you could trust to catch the damn ball

Bowe needs to work on that

BigMeatballDave
03-01-2009, 12:37 AM
That doesn't change that the Chiefs just robbed the Pats blindSeems to me the Pats forgot to get Pioli's keys from him when he left...:D

BigMeatballDave
03-01-2009, 12:40 AM
We need a turck load of tampex to take care of some of the people.And some of this to wash out the sand...<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/N91XsdrBqUY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/N91XsdrBqUY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

BigMeatballDave
03-01-2009, 12:42 AM
Well Tyler Thigpens idea of passing was to just throw it to Gonzalez no matter how many guys were on him.I know you don't think much of Bowe, but he did manage to catch 86 passes.

kcpasco
03-01-2009, 12:46 AM
I know you don't think much of Bowe, but he did manage to catch 86 passes.

I like Bowe, I just wish he didn't have as many drops.

DaneMcCloud
03-01-2009, 01:00 AM
I wonder if Tony Gonzalez is upset...

He's been upset since 2005.

He needs to shut his fucking mouth.

Or the unpopular: Trade his ass.

Same with Waters.

I'd be SHOCKED if he was in the 2009 roster.

DaneMcCloud
03-01-2009, 01:00 AM
You mean like 20?

I was thinking 30

Mecca
03-01-2009, 01:02 AM
I know you don't think much of Bowe, but he did manage to catch 86 passes.

Actually that's not true...

BigMeatballDave
03-01-2009, 01:04 AM
Actually that's not true...What's not true?

Mecca
03-01-2009, 01:05 AM
Have I ever said Bowe sucks?

milkman
03-01-2009, 01:14 AM
I am going to write a complete sentence to indicate to my audience that I agree with the majority of this post, save the "robbed" portion, because, in truth, it was just a fair exchange.

Let no one call me a lazy poster.

I only said that they robbed them because in the past QB's trades have cost alot more than just a 2nd round pick.

That actually brings up a good point made by Hamas.

If Cassel was thought of as highly by NFL people around the league that need QBs as he is by the so called media experts and fans here, Teams like the Lions, the Vikings, the Jets would have given far more for Cassel than what the Pats got from the Chiefs.

aturnis
03-01-2009, 01:27 AM
Just saying...this trade was the 2nd for Cassel AND Vrabel. Good value.

JASONSAUTO
03-01-2009, 01:29 AM
That actually brings up a good point made by Hamas.

If Cassel was thought of as highly by NFL people around the league that need QBs as he is by the so called media experts and fans here, Teams like the Lions, the Vikings, the Jets would have given far more for Cassel than what the Pats got from the Chiefs.

mort is sticking to the story that denver offered the #12 for cassel. but who knows

DaneMcCloud
03-01-2009, 01:30 AM
mort is sticking to the story that denver offered the #12 for cassel. but who knows

That doesn't add up.

Why wouldn't NE take that in a heartbeat?

And don't say "loyalty".


I think it's BS.

milkman
03-01-2009, 01:38 AM
Just saying...this trade was the 2nd for Cassel AND Vrabel. Good value.

I'm not arguing that it wasn't good value.
I agree completely.

My question is, if Cassel is a top 5-8 QB in the NFL, as Adam Shefter said many times today that NFL people were telling him, why wouldn't the Vikings offer the 22nd pick in the draft for him.

They trade a 4th for Sage freakin' Rosenfel.

unlurking
03-01-2009, 01:40 AM
That doesn't add up.

Why wouldn't NE take that in a heartbeat?

And don't say "loyalty".


I think it's BS.
Rumors said that other teams wanted to negotiate a new contract with Cassel FIRST, who said no. The Chiefs were also willing to take Vrabel. That's a VERY QUICK $20 mill off the negative side of the balance sheet.

Tiger's Fan
03-01-2009, 02:04 AM
This thread, and the thread starter specifically is a prime example of "true fans > whining fucking morons".

Ultra Peanut
03-01-2009, 02:17 AM
I wanted Stafford more than any player ever for the Chiefs. The way people have downplayed his talent is freaking criminal. One knuckle dragging moron after another, who never even watched him play. And when he is lighting it up in the NFL I will be there to remind the True Fans...all of them. I will shove Stafford up their ass sideways.

But I knew it would never happen.

So now I hope Cassel isn't Scott Mitchell, or Matt Schaub even.

What I like about the trade - separate from the question of Cassel's merits - is that Pioli got what he wanted, and got it for a good deal, and got the whole league buzzing about it.

That tells me he is serious, aggressive, and smart. And that will reap us benefits eventually if not already.

New coach, gm, staff, QB....a final and total gutting has taken place. We aren't timid anymore, on the field or off.

So, we'll see. As much as I want to be angry about Cassel, I'm not. I'm excited because we have someone in control with a plan, someone willing to shake it up. For now, I'm cool with that.Replace "Stafford" with "Sanchez," and this is my post.

BigRedChief
03-01-2009, 02:28 AM
From the Cassel Rumors thread a month ago:
...
:hmmm: Not a BRC comment anywhere on Cassel.http://www.forumspile.com/That-Is-Excellent.jpg

Saccopoo
03-01-2009, 02:28 AM
I'm keeping it in because I don't feel like having a 20 page thread argument on Saturday night while I sit in 6 inches of snow.

I have 1 positive thing to say about it, atleast I don't have to watch Thigpen anymore.

Gold.

Ultra Peanut
03-01-2009, 02:42 AM
Why is it a big surprise that good QBs have weapons?

I keep hearing the "he won't have Moss and Welker" argument.

Of course he won't.

That's when it's on the coaches to put Dwayne Bowe and Tony Gonzalez in position to make plays.

But typically, the real good QBs in the NFL have real good weapons on the outside.It's not just that he had weapons, it's that he led the league in percentage of passing yards that came after the catch. 55% of his yards came after the ball was in his receivers' hands. That's not a great sign of someone who can take over a game.

For comparison, Brodie was high on that list in 2007:


http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/01/smart-notes-january-10-2009.html

If football were a brand new invention, and we had to decide how to credit the various amounts of yards gained to various players, how would we do it? If I said, "There's this kind of play called a pass, in which a thrower passes the ball to a another player who then runs with it as far as he can. I say we credit all the yards run by the receiver to the thrower." You'd say I was nuts.

I'd say, "Well, it takes a special kind of talent for a passer to get a lot of yardage after the catch (YAC). I won't be able to prove it, in fact, I won't have any evidence for that statement at all, but I still think our primary measure of a passer should include all those yards." I'd be laughed at.

Here are the QBs from 2007 who led the league in percent of their passing yardage as YAC: Croyle, Testaverde, Greise, Harrington, Favre, McCown, Losman, and Lemon. The 2006 list includes Brunell, Carr, Favre, (Rob) Johnson, and (Alex) Smith. There's isn't a single guy on that list who we can call a legitimate starter.

The 2008 season's list of leaders in %YAC include Cassel, O'Sullivan, Campbell, Favre (again), Losman, and Wallace. But Matt Cassel is good, right? Maybe not. Keep in mind how good the team around him was. He was handed the keys to a Ferrari. If a QB racks up his passing yards with YAC, he's either throwing lots of short check-downs and screens, or he has spectacular receivers--or both. Neither is necessarily an indication of a particularly skilled passer.

If we throw away all the YAC and look underneath, what do we have left? I call it Air Yards (AY). It's the distance forward of the line of scrimmage a pass travels. Although it's not a perfect measure of a passer, I think it makes a lot more sense than crediting Donovan McNabb with 71 yards and a touchdown for a 1-yard screen pass to Brian Westbrook.Do you really want any of the names listed alongside Cassel to be your franchise QB?

milkman
03-01-2009, 02:45 AM
It's not just that he had weapons, it's that he led the league in percentage of passing yards that came after the catch. 55% of his yards came after the ball was in his receivers' hands. That's not a great sign of someone who can take over a game.

For comparison, Brodie was high on that list in 2007:

I'd be curious to know how the Cards did in YAC in '08.

the Talking Can
03-01-2009, 05:37 AM
I'm not arguing that it wasn't good value.
I agree completely.

My question is, if Cassel is a top 5-8 QB in the NFL, as Adam Shefter said many times today that NFL people were telling him, why wouldn't the Vikings offer the 22nd pick in the draft for him.

They trade a 4th for Sage freakin' Rosenfel.

the vikings chose to make Allen the highest paid defensive player in the league, thus creating a superbowl quality defense, only to then annoint Tavaris Jackson their QBOTF and waste any realistic chance at playoff success

in other words, they are that stupid....

Short Leash Hootie
03-01-2009, 05:47 AM
I wonder if Tony Gonzalez is upset...

I doubt it...he didn't want a rookie and he didn't want to rebuild...looks like neither is happening...Pioli is serious and wants to compete...NEXT fucking year...there is already buzz that the Chiefs are looking to be next years Miami...and you know what? I think Pioli has a chance...a few free agents and a killer draft...who knows? We have talent on offense...that's for sure...lets see about that defense.

Short Leash Hootie
03-01-2009, 05:50 AM
I'm not arguing that it wasn't good value.
I agree completely.

My question is, if Cassel is a top 5-8 QB in the NFL, as Adam Shefter said many times today that NFL people were telling him, why wouldn't the Vikings offer the 22nd pick in the draft for him.

They trade a 4th for Sage freakin' Rosenfel.

I'm sorry, I think the league was holding out to hold the Patriots hostage around draft day...everyone knows they can't spend $30M on QB's...so they were going to try and leverage the Pats...who they figured were going to want multiple picks...

Then BB makes a deal with his old buddy Pioli and everyone, the Broncos, the Bucs, the Lions, freak out because it's only for the # friggin' 34 overall and then they try and put together a last ditch package...the Patriots, who realize they could get more and use the Chiefs as leverage...decide no friggin' way because of the relationship they have with our GM...I honestly think the Bucs might have offered the #19 after they realized the Chiefs were going to land Cassel and I think Belichick has enough respect for Pioli where he'd never screw him over...I think that might be exactly what happened.

No matter how Cassel turns out...bust or franchise or somewhere in between...this was a steal of a deal.

mikey23545
03-01-2009, 06:42 AM
<b>I'm sorry, I think the league was holding out to hold the Patriots hostage around draft day...everyone knows they can't spend $30M on QB's...so they were going to try and leverage the Pats</b>...who they figured were going to want multiple picks...

Then BB makes a deal with his old buddy Pioli and everyone, the Broncos, the Bucs, the Lions, freak out because it's only for the # friggin' 34 overall and then they try and put together a last ditch package...the Patriots, who realize they could get more and use the Chiefs as leverage...decide no friggin' way because of the relationship they have with our GM...I honestly think the Bucs might have offered the #19 after they realized the Chiefs were going to land Cassel and I think Belichick has enough respect for Pioli where he'd never screw him over...I think that might be exactly what happened.

No matter how Cassel turns out...bust or franchise or somewhere in between...this was a steal of a deal.

Great point.

mikey23545
03-01-2009, 06:44 AM
I get great enjoyment out of seeing that the Whining of the Fourteen went on almost all night....ROFL

blueballs
03-01-2009, 06:46 AM
Damond Huard is thrilled with the trade
do you know how many times he's been sacked
by Haynsworth over the last two days on ESPN

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-01-2009, 06:47 AM
I'm sorry, I think the league was holding out to hold the Patriots hostage around draft day...everyone knows they can't spend $30M on QB's...so they were going to try and leverage the Pats...who they figured were going to want multiple picks....

You only need two buyers to end any idea of a hostage situation.

If you are going to tell me that Minnesota, who is in the ultimate "win now" mode, wasn't willing to offer a first for Cassel when they saw the Chiefs were offering a second because they were trying to hold them hostage, you're nuts.

No team saw him to be worth more than #34. If they did, he'd be with them. It's not like this was June and the Pats were desperate to unload him. More teams need QBs than just the Chiefs. This was the market price for him.

Short Leash Hootie
03-01-2009, 06:54 AM
You only need two buyers to end any idea of a hostage situation.

If you are going to tell me that Minnesota, who is in the ultimate "win now" mode, wasn't willing to offer a first for Cassel when they saw the Chiefs were offering a second because they were trying to hold them hostage, you're nuts.

No team saw him to be worth more than #34. If they did, he'd be with them. It's not like this was June and the Pats were desperate to unload him. More teams need QBs than just the Chiefs. This was the market price for him.

Ok, you're right. Sorry for having a different opinion.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-01-2009, 06:58 AM
Ok, you're right. Sorry for having a different opinion.

I'm not saying you can't have a different opinion, but put yourself in the shoes of New England here.

The following teams need QBs:

San Fran
Seattle (maybe)
Washington (maybe)
Carolina (maybe)
Tampa
Chicago
Minnesota
Detroit
Kansas City
New York Jets
Buffalo (maybe)

You're telling me that all of those teams conspired together to freeze New England out when they all need a franchise quarterback. Even if you cut out all the "maybes", that's a shitload of collusion to draw down interest, especially in a market where Sage Rosenfels just went for a 4th rounder.

Just use Occam's Razor.

the Talking Can
03-01-2009, 06:59 AM
No team saw him to be worth more than #34. If they did, he'd be with them.

that assumes a rational market, and rational actors...neither of which exist in the NFL....

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-01-2009, 07:06 AM
that assumes a rational market, and rational actors...neither of which exist in the NFL....

How many elite players are underpaid in the NFL when their contract comes up? 0.

Albert Haynesworth just got $100 million dollars for two years of production, Jason Brown just got 40 million, and we're assuming that a guy who plays a far more important position is being frozen out by other teams?

This isn't New England getting a cancerous Randy Moss on the day of the draft, this is a guy who has been auditioned in trade talks for months.

We didn't bamboozle the Patriots. They got what they could get out of him. If Tampa offered #19, they would have shipped his ass there in a microsecond.

He was worth #34-Mike Vrabel. That's what he went for.

the Talking Can
03-01-2009, 07:14 AM
How many elite players are underpaid in the NFL when their contract comes up? 0.

Albert Haynesworth just got $100 million dollars for two years of production, Jason Brown just got 40 million, and we're assuming that a guy who plays a far more important position is being frozen out by other teams?

This isn't New England getting a cancerous Randy Moss on the day of the draft, this is a guy who has been auditioned in trade talks for months.

We didn't bamboozle the Patriots. They got what they could get out of him. If Tampa offered #19, they would have shipped his ass there in a microsecond.

He was worth #34-Mike Vrabel. That's what he went for.


i don't understand the point of confusing two types of value

yes, a person or product is literally worth whatever someone is willing to pay...but that doesn't tell you anything about their worth to a particular team or their talent level...

the Raiders prove that with every FA signing they make...

and Haynesworth is considered a proven commodity compared to Cassel, about whom their are obviously still questions...hence the lower price as the buyer is absorbing the risk of a player who has only played 16 in his entire career....

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-01-2009, 07:23 AM
i don't understand the point of confusing two types of value

yes, a person or product is literally worth whatever someone is willing to pay...but that doesn't tell you anything about their worth to a particular team or their talent level...

the Raiders prove that with every FA signing they make...

and Haynesworth is considered a proven commodity compared to Cassel, about whom their are obviously still questions...hence the lower price as the buyer is absorbing the risk of a player who has only played 16 in his entire career....

Which is exactly my point. He's not worth any more than #34. We didn't fleece anyone. We got what his value was on the open market.

Mecca
03-01-2009, 07:26 AM
I consider it fair value the guys on TV talking like Cassell was worth top 10 picks or multiple 1st rounders were nuts.

unlurking
03-01-2009, 08:53 AM
He was worth #34 - MVrabel - $14 mill.

One of the articles posted around here yesterday said that the deal with the Lions fell through because Cassel refused to renegotiate his contract, while the Chiefs were willing to take BOTH players salaries off the books AS IS.

Don't underestimate the fact that the Patriots now have an extra $20 mill to spend in the beginning of FA rather than the middle or end when most sought after players are gone. They saw all the movement and realized they didn't have time to wait.

NOT factoring that in as a way to devalue Cassel is disingenuous to say the least.

BigRedChief
03-01-2009, 09:15 AM
Just saying...this trade was the 2nd for Cassel AND Vrabel. Good value.
And isn't that the bottom line? The reason for our downfall for the last 10 years? Poor drafting and FA value under King Carl?

Regardless whether you are sold on Cassel or not you really have to be excited that we will hit on more draft picks and FA's than we have in the last 20 years.

In Pioli we trust. :clap:

Now I'm not syaing that Belliceck got schooled by the pupil either. They got rid of 2 high salaried players that are not essential to their future and picked up the #34 pick. If Cassell is our QB for the next 10 years then it was the trade of the century for us. If he falls on his ass it was still a good trade because of the upside potential...on paper at least.

Count Alex's Losses
03-01-2009, 04:16 PM
Mark Schlereth said "he's got a big arm, but accuracy is going to be an issue."

WTF was HE watching?

ClevelandBronco
03-01-2009, 04:24 PM
Cassel is a great #2.

I thought you already had one.

Count Alex's Losses
03-01-2009, 04:33 PM
You know, it occurred to me that Cassel knows all the ins and outs of McDaniels' offense.

orange
03-01-2009, 05:05 PM
You know, it occurred to me that Cassel knows all the ins and outs of McDaniels' offense.

Hey, you're onto something! Maybe Cassel's the new DC the Chiefs have been waiting for!


p.s. Not the main subject, but since the title of the thread is "Amalgamation of Thoughts on Cassel..."

What's the over-under on how many days it will take before at least half of Chiefs fans spell his name right? I still flipflop between McDaniel and McDaniels and it's been over a month.

Reaper16
03-01-2009, 05:20 PM
A lot of posters are bringing up the point that the Gonzo/Bowe tandem had nearly as many catches as the Moss/Welker tandem.

You have to consider, though, that KC was throwing the ball more than NE was. NE was the #6 rushing team last season, while KC was #16. Moss/Welker had more catches and more yards than Gonzo/Bowe without being the focus on every offensive snap.

KChiefs1
03-01-2009, 05:20 PM
I'll take Scott Pioli's football expertise over anyone on CP.

JASONSAUTO
03-01-2009, 05:26 PM
A lot of posters are bringing up the point that the Gonzo/Bowe tandem had nearly as many catches as the Moss/Welker tandem.

You have to consider, though, that KC was throwing the ball more than NE was. NE was the #6 rushing team last season, while KC was #16. Moss/Welker had more catches and more yards than Gonzo/Bowe without being the focus on every offensive snap.

actually the chiefs had 530 attempts and cassel had 516 and brady had 11 so thats 527 attempts, so that blows that theory out of the water

Reaper16
03-01-2009, 05:33 PM
actually the chiefs had 530 attempts and cassel had 516 and brady had 11 so thats 527 attempts, so that blows that theory out of the water
I suppose I could have been more clear. KC threw the ball more than NE did relative to the number of offensive snaps each team had. NE had approx. 125 or so more rushing attempts than the Chiefs had. NE's pass-to-run ration was a lot more balanced than KC's. KC was a lot more likely to pass on a given offensive snap than NE was.

If NE passed with the same frequency that the Chiefs passed, then Moss and Welker would have had a good-sized statistical increase (Though probably to the detriment of the Patriots as a whole).

wild1
03-01-2009, 05:37 PM
I'll take Scott Pioli's football expertise over anyone on CP.

me too

BigRedChief
03-01-2009, 05:41 PM
I'll take Scott Pioli's football expertise over anyone on CP.
It can't be such a bad deal if some people are urging the friggin NFL to investigate such a one sided deal that benefited us?

The general concensus was never trade anything with NE. You always get schooled. Wellllthe first evidence is in and itlooks like Pioli wasthe one doing the schooling.