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View Full Version : Chiefs I think all the 3-4 talk is hooey.


Chris Meck
03-06-2009, 11:04 AM
I really don't think we're going to a 3-4.

I think Vrabel's position here is a passing down rush end. At this point in his career, it's a smart way to use him.

We don't have a NT. We just don't. We didn't make a play for any of the guys in FA that fit that spot.

We don't really have 3-4 ends. If we were really going to do this, I think we'd have at least looked at Olshansky.

We would basically be wasting last year's #5 overall pick. Also a waste of Hali. So we waste 50% of our last 4 first round picks to switch to a defense we have basically NO personnel for.

We're short at least 1 starting OLB for a 3-4, and really would need another player that could take a lot of snaps as Vrabel is going to need a breather at this stage of his career. Didn't even look at Dansby.

I don't buy it. What's the upside? I don't see any.

I think people are grasping at straws.

Molitoth
03-06-2009, 11:08 AM
Also a waste of Hali


Hali was a waste of a draft pick anyway.

KCrockaholic
03-06-2009, 11:09 AM
Hali was a waste of a draft pick anyway.

Why do you throw him under the bus after one bad year with a horrible defense around him? sounds awful ignorant to me

beach tribe
03-06-2009, 11:11 AM
I don't think we're switching yet. The acquisition of a 34 yr old LB doesn't automatically mean we're going to a 3-4.

Skip Towne
03-06-2009, 11:11 AM
As Amnorix pointed out, you don't have to make the switch in one day. It took the Pats nearly 2 years to switch and they still run some 4-3.

suds79
03-06-2009, 11:13 AM
We would basically be wasting last year's #5 overall pick. Also a waste of Hali. So we waste 50% of our last 4 first round picks to switch to a defense we have basically NO personnel for.

I think Pioli & Haley see that this was a 2-14 team last year. They're going to be afraid to run the system they believe in because of picks in the past. That's just my guess.

I think this team will still acquire or draft a NT and move Dorsey to DE. Yeah he's not ideally tall enough but his weight is right about where you want it.

We might see some 3-4 & 4-3 looks next year as it takes time but I fully expect us to go to that(3-4). Just seems like it's going to happen.

ChiefRon
03-06-2009, 11:14 AM
I think it's going to be mostly 4-3, with some 3-4 mixed in at times.

The "hybrid", at least in year 1

KCrockaholic
03-06-2009, 11:15 AM
we will be using a 4-3/3-4 hybrid this year I believe. Probably alot of 43 with some 34 mixed in.

KCrockaholic
03-06-2009, 11:16 AM
I think it's going to be mostly 4-3, with some 3-4 mixed in at times.

The "hybrid", at least in year 1

damn, you beat me to it.

Chiefnj2
03-06-2009, 11:17 AM
They haven't shown a lot of interest in free agents to improve the 4-3.

Molitoth
03-06-2009, 11:17 AM
Why do you throw him under the bus after one bad year with a horrible defense around him? sounds awful ignorant to me

3 average years. The guy was a First Round draft pick and projected to be great. He has produced an average of 6 sacks and 43 tackles per season.

Yes, the defense sucks... But Tamba hasn't lived up to his hype.

CoMoChief
03-06-2009, 11:18 AM
Expect to be almost the same as what was ran in AZ, somewhat of a hybrid 3-4/4-3. They IIRC also dont really have 3-4 personnel as well.

DeepSouth
03-06-2009, 11:22 AM
Hali was a waste of a draft pick anyway.
I don't think anyone knows how good or how bad any of the current defensive players on the Chiefs roster is. I think the coaching staff was at least 50% responsible for their ineptness. Look at the defensive players that shipped out and played well for other teams. Particularly, linebackers (Mitchel & Fuijita). And, if Sims was so freaking bad, why did Tampa resign him.

I'm willing to give the new coaching staff a shot at getting the best out of the young players (Hali, Tyler, McBride, Dorsey, Johnson, Page, Pollard, Flowers, Carr, & Leggett)

The Buddha
03-06-2009, 11:23 AM
We're going to run a 3-3... People will run circles around us.

Blick
03-06-2009, 11:23 AM
Yeah, our defense was money last year in the 4-3. Why change it?

htismaqe
03-06-2009, 11:24 AM
I think Pioli & Haley see that this was a 2-14 team last year. They're going to be afraid to run the system they believe in because of picks in the past.

They haven't shown a lot of interest in free agents to improve the 4-3.

These.

KCrockaholic
03-06-2009, 11:26 AM
3 average years. The guy was a First Round draft pick and projected to be great. He has produced an average of 6 sacks and 43 tackles per season.

Yes, the defense sucks... But Tamba hasn't lived up to his hype.

I wouldnt discount him until hes on a team that actually has an above average defense. I will give him one more year to prove himself until i decide he was really a waste of a pick.

KCrockaholic
03-06-2009, 11:27 AM
I don't think anyone knows how good or how bad any of the current defensive players on the Chiefs roster is. I think the coaching staff was at least 50% responsible for their ineptness. Look at the defensive players that shipped out and played well for other teams. Particularly, linebackers (Mitchel & Fuijita). And, if Sims was so freaking bad, why did Tampa resign him.

I'm willing to give the new coaching staff a shot at getting the best out of the young players (Hali, Tyler, McBride, Dorsey, Johnson, Page, Pollard, Flowers, Carr, & Leggett)

good point, i feel the same way.

Smed1065
03-06-2009, 11:27 AM
As Amnorix pointed out, you don't have to make the switch in one day. It took the Pats nearly 2 years to switch and they still run some 4-3.

This or that.

DeezNutz
03-06-2009, 11:27 AM
Something is going to have to give, though.

Mr. Slap Dick was retained, suggesting that Pioli didn't think the coaching was a problem with the line. However, we're still looking at the same front 4 (or 3, depending upon if the switch coming to fruition).

It's either coaching or talent. We can't return the same cast o' shit.

The Buddha
03-06-2009, 11:34 AM
Something is going to have to give, though.

Mr. Slap Dick was retained, suggesting that Pioli didn't think the coaching was a problem with the line. However, we're still looking at the same front 4 (or 3, depending upon if the switch coming to fruition).

It's either coaching or talent. We can't return the same cast o' shit.

He might be waiting to fire Krumrie. Until he can find the certain person he's looking for.

I doubt it, but its a thought.

soundmind
03-06-2009, 11:34 AM
Herman Edwards RUINED this defense.

I was not in favor of keeping Krumrie, but he may not have been the problem at all. Don't think for a second (especially given his public comments) that Gunther was pumped up about zone coverage and NOT blitzing...

The DLine produced no sacks, because we never blitzed, so 5-6 guys blocking 4 down linemen is typically not a problem for opposing teams, especially when you never, ever, change anything.

Glad your gone Herm.

chiefzilla1501
03-06-2009, 11:35 AM
Why do you throw him under the bus after one bad year with a horrible defense around him? sounds awful ignorant to me

I don't think Hali is a bad DE. But I think his role as a rotational DE--that's not a bad thing, but he's not a guy you build a defense around and he is certainly expendable. I say that not because of the numbers he put up last year, but about how completely incapable he was of getting around left tackles. It seems like his success came mostly from Jared Allen pushing quarterbacks in Hali's direction.

So yeah, I think hali could do fine as a rotational DE, but he's not a guy that should stop the chiefs from completely revamping the defense.

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 11:37 AM
The DLine produced no sacks, because we never blitzed

Sometimes I wonder if some of you even watch the games.

The Chiefs blitzed plenty last year.

DeepSouth
03-06-2009, 11:37 AM
Something is going to have to give, though.

Mr. Slap Dick was retained, suggesting that Pioli didn't think the coaching was a problem with the line. However, we're still looking at the same front 4 (or 3, depending upon if the switch coming to fruition).

It's either coaching or talent. We can't return the same cast o' shit.
As much as I dislike Whitlock, he pointed out during last season how they were playing Dorsey wrong. He didn't play that way in college and Whitlock says he didn't have the right build to play the way they wanted him to. If a new coordinator can make use of the existing players talents versus trying to make them play in a system they're not built for, you'd think there has to be improvement.

I used to be a Gunther fan but I'm glad he's gone. I think he was a good coordinator when he was the coordinator for a great head coach; Schottenhiemer, Fisher, etc... I think Gunther and Herm together was a disaster.

chiefzilla1501
03-06-2009, 11:38 AM
Herman Edwards RUINED this defense.

I was not in favor of keeping Krumrie, but he may not have been the problem at all. Don't think for a second (especially given his public comments) that Gunther was pumped up about zone coverage and NOT blitzing...

The DLine produced no sacks, because we never blitzed, so 5-6 guys blocking 4 down linemen is typically not a problem for opposing teams, especially when you never, ever, change anything.

Don't think for a second that Gun wasn't a big part of the problem.

soundmind
03-06-2009, 11:42 AM
Sometimes I wonder if some of you even watch the games.

The Chiefs blitzed plenty last year.

I watched and/or attended every single game.

I'm not saying that's the sole reason, I'm saying that's a BIG PART of why our defense was so ineffective - they played it safe all year, and it would be extremely difficult to sell me anything different.

I'd suggest you re-screen your extensive vault of Herm Edwards' defensive prowess tapes. All that guy thinks about is coverage.

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 11:44 AM
I'm not saying that's the sole reason, I'm saying that's a BIG PART of why our defense was so ineffective - they played it safe all year, and it would be extremely difficult to sell me anything different.


They sucked blitzing, and they sucked rushing four.

They sucked in general.

And they went into the season with the plan to blitz.

soundmind
03-06-2009, 11:45 AM
Don't think for a second that Gun wasn't a big part of the problem.

I wouldn't deny that Gun was a HUGE part of the problem, but forcing his system to a severe fault was all on Herm in my book.

Gun I give credit to for the awful play of our linebackers, and the laundry list of things we expected from Derrick Johnson that have yet to surface. LBs were his detail alone and he failed in consecutive years.

DeezNutz
03-06-2009, 11:46 AM
I watched and/or attended every single game.

I'm not saying that's the sole reason, I'm saying that's a BIG PART of why our defense was so ineffective - they played it safe all year, and it would be extremely difficult to sell me anything different.

I'd suggest you re-screen your extensive vault of Herm Edwards' defensive prowess tapes. All that guy thinks about is coverage.

Of course Herm was a part of the problem, and a big part at that. However, when a team fields an historically bad unit, all of the parts are working to contribute to building the massive shit burger.

I think what we're going to see is that the biggest part of the problem was an overall lack of talent.

This unit is still going to be carpet bombed, IMO.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 11:47 AM
I really don't think we're going to a 3-4.

I think Vrabel's position here is a passing down rush end. At this point in his career, it's a smart way to use him.

We don't have a NT. We just don't. We didn't make a play for any of the guys in FA that fit that spot.

We don't really have 3-4 ends. If we were really going to do this, I think we'd have at least looked at Olshansky.

We would basically be wasting last year's #5 overall pick. Also a waste of Hali. So we waste 50% of our last 4 first round picks to switch to a defense we have basically NO personnel for.

We're short at least 1 starting OLB for a 3-4, and really would need another player that could take a lot of snaps as Vrabel is going to need a breather at this stage of his career. Didn't even look at Dansby.

I don't buy it. What's the upside? I don't see any.

I think people are grasping at straws.


Really, the way many teams run the 3-4, it is more like a 5-2.

I think that they will have Vrabel on one side, Hali on the other. I think McBride and Boone play end. I think Dorsey plays NT on passing downs and DE on passing downs.

Igor plays the one position that I think they are very stacked at for the 3-4.

The Chiefs will draft Curry (IMO), put him inside with DJ, and allow Pollard to play in the box.

I think the Chiefs are definitely going to the 3-4, and I think Pollard, DJ and Hali will all benefit from it. Oh, and I think that Dorsey will be much better than most understand.

KCrockaholic
03-06-2009, 11:47 AM
I don't think Hali is a bad DE. But I think his role as a rotational DE--that's not a bad thing, but he's not a guy you build a defense around and he is certainly expendable. I say that not because of the numbers he put up last year, but about how completely incapable he was of getting around left tackles. It seems like his success came mostly from Jared Allen pushing quarterbacks in Hali's direction.

So yeah, I think hali could do fine as a rotational DE, but he's not a guy that should stop the chiefs from completely revamping the defense.

Id say your correct here. At this point of his career he probably is best as a rotaional DE, but this doesnt mean he is a waste of a pick. He can still bring some value to the team, and like ive said, I wont judge him to much until he has a better D around him. Im not saying Carr or Flowers did a bad job last year, but, maybe if they had played better man coverage on blitzes they would have stalled the QB a little longer and allowed our front to reach the QB more often....Now this goes both ways, as DL and CB play off eachother like a marriage. They both have to be doing the right thing to be successful. When the DL gives push, it allows the CBs to make plays on poorly thrown balls. When CBs hold down their man, it allows the DL to have more time to get to the QB...In the end, this defense was just horrible, and it was very hard to say much about any of our players because they just didnt have a chance.

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 11:48 AM
Igor plays the one position that I think they are very stacked at for the 3-4.


ROFL

This shit is unbelievable. We have ZERO starting 3-4 defensive ends on the roster. McBride might be a good backup.

Pioli took one look at Hali and probably thought "OK, I better trade for Vrabel or something."

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 11:49 AM
3 average years. The guy was a First Round draft pick and projected to be great. He has produced an average of 6 sacks and 43 tackles per season.

Yes, the defense sucks... But Tamba hasn't lived up to his hype.

Tamba is the most underated player on the defense. He was injured last year, but the Chiefs were so thin that he couldn't take any games off to get healthy.

Chocolate Hog
03-06-2009, 11:50 AM
Hali can play linebacker!1!

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 11:50 AM
Tamba is the most underated player on the defense. He was injured last year, but the Chiefs were so thin that he couldn't take any games off to get healthy.

Sorry, he fucking sucks. And he's garbage in a 3-4.

Chocolate Hog
03-06-2009, 11:51 AM
Tamba is the most underated player on the defense. He was injured last year, but the Chiefs were so thin that he couldn't take any games off to get healthy.

Yea he's been getting blocked vs the run ever since he came in the league

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 11:53 AM
ROFL

This shit is unbelievable. We have ZERO starting 3-4 defensive ends on the roster. McBride might be a good backup.

Pioli took one look at Hali and probably thought "OK, I better trade for Vrabel or something."

Boone is perfect at the position. Dorsey can swing inside and outside and McBride is a perfect fit.

Time will tell.

KCrockaholic
03-06-2009, 11:54 AM
Sorry, he ****ing sucks. And he's garbage in a 3-4.

only problem is that weve never seen him play in a 3-4! how can you judge so quickly when it hasnt even happened yet?

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 11:54 AM
Yea he's been getting blocked vs the run ever since he came in the league

Agree with that. That is why I think the move to OLB will greatly benefit him.

It will allow him to use his speed and athleticsm.

chiefzilla1501
03-06-2009, 11:54 AM
Of course Herm was a part of the problem, and a big part at that. However, when a team fields an historically bad unit, all of the parts are working to contribute to building the massive shit burger.

I think what we're going to see is that the biggest part of the problem was an overall lack of talent.

This unit is still going to be carpet bombed, IMO.

Yup. The only guy that keeps you from running a 3-4 is dorsey. Much as I like the guy, you don't resist a scheme switch because of one guy, no matter how good he is. There was never a better time to consider a defensive switch than now.

DeezNutz
03-06-2009, 11:55 AM
Tamba is the most underated player on the defense. He was injured last year, but the Chiefs were so thin that he couldn't take any games off to get healthy.

Wow. Underrated?

Hardly. The guy fucking sucks and was a terrible first-round selection. You want something more than a rotational player at this draft slot.

Chocolate Hog
03-06-2009, 11:55 AM
Alfonso Boone is a fossil and Mcbride sucks

DeezNutz
03-06-2009, 11:57 AM
Yup. The only guy that keeps you from running a 3-4 is dorsey. Much as I like the guy, you don't resist a scheme switch because of one guy, no matter how good he is. There was never a better time to consider a defensive switch than now.

Flushing the #5 overall selection is just dumb as fuck on so many different levels.

You also have to consider how the switch would affect the secondary. Flowers is very promising, too.

That said, it's hard to be more talent depleted than what the D currently is.

Chocolate Hog
03-06-2009, 12:00 PM
Flushing the #5 overall selection is just dumb as **** on so many different levels.

You also have to consider how the switch would affect the secondary. Flowers is very promising, too.

That said, it's hard to be more talent depleted than what the D currently is.

I don't think it matters under the Patriots way if you don't play you get dumped.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 12:01 PM
Wow. Underrated?

Hardly. The guy ****ing sucks and was a terrible first-round selection. You want something more than a rotational player at this draft slot.


He led the team in sacks two years ago. He had eight sacks the year before last.

He struggled last year. Why? Well, I think there were a ton of reasons. #1) He switched positions. #2) He was injured a good part of the year and didn't take time off to let it heal like he should have. #3) The Chiefs didn't have a threat on the other side at all and the QB could just roll away from him.

Hali isn't Jared Allen. He isn't a Hall of Famer. But, he is a legit starter on most teams in the NFL.

Even if he doesn't fit here as an OLB, he will be a full time starter at DE here or somewhere else.

I think you are misguided about Hali.

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 12:02 PM
Yup. The only guy that keeps you from running a 3-4 is dorsey.

Jesus Christ you moron. Normally I don't attack people but you will not stop with your endless stream of fucking stupid football opinions.

The front seven is DEVOID OF FUCKING TALENT.

WAKE THE FUCK UP.

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 12:03 PM
It will allow him to use his speed and athleticsm.

HALI DOES NOT HAVE SPEED YOU FUCKWIT

JESUS CHRIST

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 12:04 PM
Alfonso Boone is a fossil and Mcbride sucks

Alfonso Boone is on the tail end of his career, but still has a few good years left.

McBride fits best as an undertackle in the 4-3, or a DE in the 3-4. He was playing as a 4-3 DE.

Guys don't look their best playing out of position.

Chocolate Hog
03-06-2009, 12:04 PM
No Claythan we should keep the Cover 2 scheme a few more years to see if Dorsey is a bust or not

crazycoffey
03-06-2009, 12:05 PM
Hali can play linebacker!1!


he's starting in my Madden as our LOLB, Vrabel is our ROLB, DJ and a draft pick in the middle. Hali's got two sacks in two games. So that means it could happen....

Blick
03-06-2009, 12:05 PM
Hali isn't THAT bad. I think he'll be better than people think in the 3-4.

He won't get dominated in the run game as much because there are 5 guys at the LOS instead of 4, and the 3 down linemen will be bigger, space eater type guys.

If our LB's can actually diagnose plays and fill their gaps this year, then I think our run defense should be a lot better because we'll have essentially 5 D-linemen at the LOS.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 12:06 PM
HALI DOES NOT HAVE SPEED YOU ****WIT

JESUS CHRIST

He ran a similar 40 time to Suggs. Oh, AND he ran the 20 yard shuttle in 4.31 seconds. That is a stout time in that drill. It shows his quickness and initial burst.

bdeg
03-06-2009, 12:06 PM
Alfonso Boone is a fossil and Mcbride sucks

McBride plays the run well and that's all he'd be asked to do.

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 12:07 PM
He ran a similar 40 time to Suggs.

I don't give a shit about 40 times.

Watch a game some time. Hali gets outrun by quarterbacks.

Chocolate Hog
03-06-2009, 12:07 PM
McBride plays the run well and that's all he'd be asked to do.

He's a 2nd round bust, Hali is a 1st round bust, Pollard is a 2nd round bust. Hmm there seems to be a theme.


Do you all think Tank Tyler will be good in the 3-4 too?

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 12:08 PM
I want Pioli to cut all these fucking wastes of space just to shut the retards on this board up.

WHY AM I SO ANGRY?

bdeg
03-06-2009, 12:08 PM
Tell me why Turk will be so bad as a 3-4 end.

Pollard I wouldn't label a bust yet either. He had a rocky start but has improved. He was picked too high, though.

Chocolate Hog
03-06-2009, 12:09 PM
Tell me why Turk will be so bad as a 3-4 end.

He's slow & stupid. Thats not the Patriot way

Blick
03-06-2009, 12:09 PM
Do you all think Tank Tyler will be good in the 3-4 too?

He has the strength to be a solid rotational nose tackle.

chiefzilla1501
03-06-2009, 12:09 PM
McBride plays the run well and that's all he'd be asked to do.

Agreed. The other thing McBride does a real good job of is driving blockers back. In a 3-4, he'd not only be a guy who helps in run support, but also a guy who can engage blockers and open up lanes for LBs to run through. And he'd be great at that. In fact, I think it's a much more natural fit for him.

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 12:10 PM
Tell me why Turk will be so bad as a 3-4 end.

Undersized and not that strong.

crazycoffey
03-06-2009, 12:10 PM
He's a 2nd round bust, Hali is a 1st round bust, Pollard is a 2nd round bust. Hmm there seems to be a theme.


Do you all think Tank Tyler will be good in the 3-4 too?

starting NT with three sacks in two games....

chiefzilla1501
03-06-2009, 12:11 PM
He has the strength to be a solid rotational nose tackle.

Agreed. He doesn't have the stamina to play every down, but I think he could do okay in that role if he put on some pounds. He also could end up being a decent DE.

DeezNutz
03-06-2009, 12:11 PM
He led the team in sacks two years ago. He had eight sacks the year before last.

He struggled last year. Why? Well, I think there were a ton of reasons. #1) He switched positions. #2) He was injured a good part of the year and didn't take time off to let it heal like he should have. #3) The Chiefs didn't have a threat on the other side at all and the QB could just roll away from him.

Hali isn't Jared Allen. He isn't a Hall of Famer. But, he is a legit starter on most teams in the NFL.

Even if he doesn't fit here as an OLB, he will be a full time starter at DE here or somewhere else.

I think you are misguided about Hali.

Thinking about playing Hali at OLB is suicidal. A colossal disaster waiting to happen.

1. I agree that Hali was out of position to begin the season. No question about this.
2. The quarterback rolling away from Hali had little to do with his lack of production. He was manhandled the entire season, no matter run or pass.
3. If he starts to look like an ascending player and we learn his struggles were indeed due to injury, I'll eat my appropriate serving of crow. I won't be hard to find and I won't dodge the abuse.

I think Hali struggles because he lacks the necessary explosion, overall speed, strength, etc. In short, he's a max-effort guy who lacks the type of elite athleticism necessary to be an impact player.

I give him credit for being an NFL player, just not one you'd be happy having drafted in round 1.

bdeg
03-06-2009, 12:11 PM
He's slow & stupid. Thats not the Patriot way

3-4 ends don't have to be fast and I dont think his intelligence has ever been questioned.

He may be a bit undersized though.

Pioli Zombie
03-06-2009, 12:11 PM
Its not Hooey. It might be Dewey or Looie. But its not Hooey.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 12:12 PM
He's a 2nd round bust, Hali is a 1st round bust, Pollard is a 2nd round bust. Hmm there seems to be a theme.


Do you all think Tank Tyler will be good in the 3-4 too?

Up till now, you are right, McBride has been a bust. However, I believe that it is because he was asked to play out of position.

Now, as for Pollard, I think you are incorrect. I think he has been an 'okay' pick. Not 'great' not horrible.

I think Hali was a good pick that had an off year.

DeezNutz
03-06-2009, 12:12 PM
Jesus Christ you moron. Normally I don't attack people but you will not stop with your endless stream of ****ing stupid football opinions.

The front seven is DEVOID OF ****ING TALENT.

WAKE THE **** UP.

We don't know about Dorsey, yet.

Though this point is likely moot in the 3-4.

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 12:13 PM
Up till now, you are right, McBride has been a bust. However, I believe that it is because he was asked to play out of position.

He's played 3 spots on the line.

Is he a cornerback? Jesus Christ.


Now, as for Pollard, I think you are incorrect. I think he has been an 'okay' pick. Not 'great' not horrible.

"okay" picks don't suck at tackling


I think Hali was a good pick that had an off year.

I think you're the dumbest fan on this board.

bdeg
03-06-2009, 12:14 PM
Claythan, think about a player having to learn 3 different positions in the NFL. That would slow him down too.

DeezNutz
03-06-2009, 12:15 PM
Claythan, think about a player having to learn 3 different positions in the NFL. That would slow him down too.

If you have to keep trying to move a guy, you have two options:

1. The coaches are dumb as fuck.
2. Player doesn't have a position. A suck shit tweener.

In McBride's case, I vote for all of the above.

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 12:16 PM
Claythan, think about a player having to learn 3 different positions in the NFL. That would slow him down too.

Good defensive ends can do it in their sleep. Mario Williams played at least 2 positions on Houston's shit line, maybe 3, and fucking kicked ass.

Stop making excuses for these shitty, shitty players. Herm is gone, now we have to hear from the FUCKING FANS about how these SHITTY, SHITTY PLAYERS are worth a shit.

:cuss:

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 12:16 PM
I don't give a shit about 40 times.

Watch a game some time. Hali gets outrun by quarterbacks.

Most DE's will if they don't have some pressure coming from the other side to keep the QB in the pocket.

Yet, he is able to make so many tackles down field. Hmm...

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 12:18 PM
Most DE's will if they don't have some pressure coming from the other side to keep the QB in the pocket.

LOL...no. Just...no.

Chocolate Hog
03-06-2009, 12:19 PM
Hmm most of the Giants D-linemen play more then 1 positon and do good at it

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 12:19 PM
He's played 3 spots on the line.

Is he a cornerback? Jesus Christ.



"okay" picks don't suck at tackling



I think you're the dumbest fan on this board.

Wow, someone who I think is clueless, who has obviously never played or coached football, thinks that I am the dumbest fan on this board.

Oh, however will I sleep tonight.

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 12:20 PM
Wow, someone who I think is clueless, who has obviously never played or coached football, thinks that I am the dumbest fan on this board.

Oh, however will I sleep tonight.

Tell you what disphit.

If Hali is the opening-day starter at outside linebacker this year, I'll sign off the board for a month.

If Hali isn't, you sign off for a month.

Deal?

Chocolate Hog
03-06-2009, 12:21 PM
Sensiblechiefsfan do you think Herm was good at drafting?

chiefzilla1501
03-06-2009, 12:21 PM
Undersized and not that strong.

Erroneous on both accounts. Maybe height-wise, he's an inch shorter than what you'd want out of a DE, but undersized? He's about 280, which is fine for a DE in a 3-4. It's not that far off from Keisel in Pittsburgh (285) or Trevor Pryce in Baltimore (290). As for strength, he put up 27 reps on the bench in the combine and was always moving blockers in a DE role. His weakness is that he's not particularly fast and he was always a bit of a tweener between DE and DT. That's fine for the DE position.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 12:25 PM
Thinking about playing Hali at OLB is suicidal. A colossal disaster waiting to happen.

1. I agree that Hali was out of position to begin the season. No question about this.
2. The quarterback rolling away from Hali had little to do with his lack of production. He was manhandled the entire season, no matter run or pass.
3. If he starts to look like an ascending player and we learn his struggles were indeed due to injury, I'll eat my appropriate serving of crow. I won't be hard to find and I won't dodge the abuse.

I think Hali struggles because he lacks the necessary explosion, overall speed, strength, etc. In short, he's a max-effort guy who lacks the type of elite athleticism necessary to be an impact player.

I give him credit for being an NFL player, just not one you'd be happy having drafted in round 1.

Well, I have went on record as saying that Hali will be a good player as an OLB in the 3-4.

I will have to take far more abuse than you if I am wrong, because I am clearly in the minority on here about my assessment of Hali.

I am okay with that. It makes it fun. I don't like to just go along with the crowd. I like to post stuff that I think that is contrary to the crowd.

So, that obviously leaves me open for criticism when I am wrong. And, of course I will be wrong... who isn't?

chiefzilla1501
03-06-2009, 12:25 PM
If you have to keep trying to move a guy, you have two options:

1. The coaches are dumb as ****.
2. Player doesn't have a position. A suck shit tweener.

In McBride's case, I vote for all of the above.

McBride didn't do poorly at all last year. I don't know why people think that. He had 41 tackles in 9 games, which is very solid for a DE. When the run came to his side, he usually did his job. As a pass rusher, he did not do that great, but again, not all DEs are there to be 10-sack guys. And in a 3-4, he won't be asked to be a primary rusher, so he can start playing more to his strengths.

crazycoffey
03-06-2009, 12:26 PM
Tell you what disphit.

If Hali is the opening-day starter at outside linebacker this year, I'll sign off the board for a month.

If Hali isn't, you sign off for a month.

Deal?


have you got laid yet?

bdeg
03-06-2009, 12:27 PM
Gimme a break, he was bounced around because the defensive line was so full of holes. His best fit was at undertackle and he was never given a chance to learn the position. He never should have been a DE in that scheme, and his best fit is in a 3-4. I just think he's better than what we've seen.

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 12:29 PM
I like to post stuff that I think that is contrary to the crowd.


Yes, even when it means ignoring common fucking sense.

You aren't "sensiblechiefsfan." You're "retardedchiefsfan."

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 12:30 PM
Tell you what disphit.

If Hali is the opening-day starter at outside linebacker this year, I'll sign off the board for a month.

If Hali isn't, you sign off for a month.

Deal?

No Deal. Too many variables. What if there is an injury? What if they run a hybrid defense?

Whoever is on the field for the first defensive snap would be considered the 'starters'.

I will be happy to sign off forever if Hali is cut this season. I think he fits what the Chiefs want perfectly. If they decide to play him as a 3-4 DE, I would be somewhat surprised, but I am sure they will find someplace to play this guy.

Chocolate Hog
03-06-2009, 12:31 PM
Gimme a break, he was bounced around because the defensive line was so full of holes. His best fit was at undertackle and he was never given a chance to learn the position. He never should have been a DE in that scheme, and his best fit is in a 3-4. I just think he's better than what we've seen.

Justin Tuck bounced around too and hes a good player. Your making up excuses for Mcbride you can't cover up medicority. Mcbride sucks, Hali sucks, Tyler sucks, The whole D-line sucks. This is like when the fans said the only reason Gunther sucked was because he didn't have his own coaches

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 12:35 PM
Yes, even when it means ignoring common ****ing sense.

You aren't "sensiblechiefsfan." You're "retardedchiefsfan."

My goodness, you didn't even know that Gailey was in line to be OC in Denver before the Chiefs scooped him up. I don't exactly consider you 'informed'.


The funny part is that you feel it necessary to take shots. Why? Do you think you can intimidate me from my opion by lobbing insults my way?

Keep flaming me, it isn't going to change my opinion.

Could I be wrong? Absolutely. I have been before, and I will be again. I call it like I see it. Time will tell who is right.

I just don't think the talent 'sucks' as much as most on this board does.

DeezNutz
03-06-2009, 12:40 PM
Well, I have went on record as saying that Hali will be a good player as an OLB in the 3-4.

I will have to take far more abuse than you if I am wrong, because I am clearly in the minority on here about my assessment of Hali.

I am okay with that. It makes it fun. I don't like to just go along with the crowd. I like to post stuff that I think that is contrary to the crowd.

So, that obviously leaves me open for criticism when I am wrong. And, of course I will be wrong... who isn't?

You take a lot of shit, and I give you credit for sticking to your opinions (no matter how "insensible" I might think them ;)).

Count Zarth
03-06-2009, 12:40 PM
I don't exactly consider you 'informed'.


I don't exactly consider you "sane."

You going to take my bet or not?

bdeg
03-06-2009, 12:41 PM
Justin Tuck bounced around too and hes a good player. Your making up excuses for Mcbride you can't cover up medicority. Mcbride sucks, Hali sucks, Tyler sucks, The whole D-line sucks. This is like when the fans said the only reason Gunther sucked was because he didn't have his own coaches

Did I ever say Turk made a good 4-3 end? No, I said he shouldn't be playing there. Justin Tuck has natural skills and speed and didn't need to learn as much. Turk has never been given a chance to learn his natural position. But a 3-4 end is a lot closer to it than a 4-3 end, so I expect improvement.

RustShack
03-06-2009, 12:42 PM
You can draft NT's... they don't have to come through FA. To say we can't switch to a 3-4 because we haven't signed a NT yet when FA isn't over and the draft hasn't started is hooey.

Hydrae
03-06-2009, 12:46 PM
have you got laid yet?

Obviously not, he is wound tight and taking it out on anyone on the board with a different opinion than his own. Some day he may learn post coital relaxation but not yet.

htismaqe
03-06-2009, 12:46 PM
Everybody sucks! Everybody sucks! Everybody sucks!

Wow, this is easy. Doesn't take any thought at all.

DeezNutz
03-06-2009, 12:49 PM
Everybody sucks! Everybody sucks! Everybody sucks!


Finally, insight.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-06-2009, 12:49 PM
I don't exactly consider you "sane."

You going to take my bet or not?

I already responded.

I don't consider you to be anything but a whiny a$$ed pencil necked geek.

I am not going to say I am always right, but I have a feeling that my opinion is based on far more real life experience.

Frankly, I find your opinion on football to be as credible as any tips on sex you might want to post. I am pretty sure I have far more experience and skill in both areas.

DeepSouth
03-06-2009, 03:44 PM
Obviously not, he is wound tight and taking it out on anyone on the board with a different opinion than his own. Some day he may learn post coital relaxation but not yet.

Maybe he finally picked one of those chicks and the one he picked ended up having a bigger dick than his ?

Smed1065
03-06-2009, 03:59 PM
Maybe he finally picked one of those chicks and the one he picked ended up having a bigger dick than his ?

Yes, but he did not know it was just her clit and ran off!

Skip Towne
03-06-2009, 04:06 PM
Wow, someone who I think is clueless, who has obviously never played or coached football, thinks that I am the dumbest fan on this board.

Oh, however will I sleep tonight.

Claythan, like many others on this board, is a self appointed expert.

FAX
03-06-2009, 04:12 PM
I think Pioli & Haley see that this was a 2-14 team last year. They're going to be afraid to run the system they believe in because of picks in the past. That's just my guess. ...

Very truthy, Mr. suds79. Very, very truthy.

FAX

EyePod
03-06-2009, 05:01 PM
3 average years. The guy was a First Round draft pick and projected to be great. He has produced an average of 6 sacks and 43 tackles per season.

Yes, the defense sucks... But Tamba hasn't lived up to his hype.

He was also at LDE. That's generally the run stopping DE (at least more than the LDE). I'm not saying he's any good, but you can't just look at sacks....

milkman
03-07-2009, 06:53 AM
Everybody sucks! Everybody sucks! Everybody sucks!

Wow, this is easy. Doesn't take any thought at all.

You suck.

milkman
03-07-2009, 06:57 AM
Justin Tuck bounced around too and hes a good player. Your making up excuses for Mcbride you can't cover up medicority. Mcbride sucks, Hali sucks, Tyler sucks, The whole D-line sucks. This is like when the fans said the only reason Gunther sucked was because he didn't have his own coaches

Actually, Tuck struggled quite a bit for his first two seasons while he was bouncing around, and fans considerd him a disappointment.

He, as many players do, got it by the start of his third season.

milkman
03-07-2009, 07:07 AM
He ran a similar 40 time to Suggs. Oh, AND he ran the 20 yard shuttle in 4.31 seconds. That is a stout time in that drill. It shows his quickness and initial burst.

Suggs and Hali is a perfect example of the reason that you can't put too much into the combines.

Everyone knew that Hali lacked speed, so his 40 time wasn't surprising.

Suggs, on the other hand, ran a disappointing time, given that he was seen as a player that was faster than his 40 time suggested.

Who knows why he ran it so slow, but on the football field he is faster than Hali.

Hali has a quick initial burst, but lacks closing speed.

As LDE against a normally less athletic RT (relative to LT), that initial burst is a weapon, and with Allen flushing QBs his direction, it allowed him to make plays as a pass rusher.

But against the more athletic LT, who has the quicker footwork to effectively neutralize Hali's initial burst, he was useless.

Putting him at OLB, regardless of side, will effectively neutralize that initial burst as well.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-07-2009, 08:18 AM
Suggs and Hali is a perfect example of the reason that you can't put too much into the combines.

Everyone knew that Hali lacked speed, so his 40 time wasn't surprising.

Suggs, on the other hand, ran a disappointing time, given that he was seen as a player that was faster than his 40 time suggested.

Who knows why he ran it so slow, but on the football field he is faster than Hali.

Hali has a quick initial burst, but lacks closing speed.

As LDE against a normally less athletic RT (relative to LT), that initial burst is a weapon, and with Allen flushing QBs his direction, it allowed him to make plays as a pass rusher.

But against the more athletic LT, who has the quicker footwork to effectively neutralize Hali's initial burst, he was useless.

Putting him at OLB, regardless of side, will effectively neutralize that initial burst as well.

Hali was good in coverage on zone blitzes. He has a good vertical, he has good initial burst, and most of the time he will be rushing the passer, not dropping back into coverage.

Most 3-4 defenses are played more like 5-2 defenses. Which is WHY I think drafting Curry is what will make this work.

With DJ and Curry, the Chiefs will have two very fast, very athletic linebackers that can cover sideline to sideline. The one difference is that Curry actually defeats blocks and tackles well. DJ will have to defeat fewer blocks in this scheme BECAUSE the defensive line isn't trying to rush upfield, just trying to tie up blockers.

The other part of the new scheme is that it will allow Pollard to drop down into the box more, again, a good fit for him.

I know that I am in the minority as far as Hali goes. I am cool with that. If I am right, then great. If I am wrong, I am going to catch it from EVERYONE.

Thems the breaks.

General Malaise
03-07-2009, 08:32 AM
What makes everyone here so sure Dorsey can't be a 3/4 Nose tackle. He is around 300lbs and at 6'1 he is bound to good at getting leverage. Let him put on 20 pounds and maybe you have a two gap nose tackle

milkman
03-07-2009, 08:35 AM
Hali was good in coverage on zone blitzes. He has a good vertical, he has good initial burst, and most of the time he will be rushing the passer, not dropping back into coverage.

Most 3-4 defenses are played more like 5-2 defenses. Which is WHY I think drafting Curry is what will make this work.

With DJ and Curry, the Chiefs will have two very fast, very athletic linebackers that can cover sideline to sideline. The one difference is that Curry actually defeats blocks and tackles well. DJ will have to defeat fewer blocks in this scheme BECAUSE the defensive line isn't trying to rush upfield, just trying to tie up blockers.

The other part of the new scheme is that it will allow Pollard to drop down into the box more, again, a good fit for him.

I know that I am in the minority as far as Hali goes. I am cool with that. If I am right, then great. If I am wrong, I am going to catch it from EVERYONE.

Thems the breaks.

Time will tell.

milkman
03-07-2009, 08:39 AM
What makes everyone here so sure Dorsey can't be a 3/4 Nose tackle. He is around 300lbs and at 6'1 he is bound to good at getting leverage. Let him put on 20 pounds and maybe you have a two gap nose tackle

Dorsey strength is that he has the quickness to penetrate gaps and get into the backfield.

He was used as the nose in the cover two, which limited his effectiveness.

If you ask him to add 20 pounds (or more) then you are completely eliminating the things that made him a top 5 pick.

patteeu
03-07-2009, 08:47 AM
3 average years. The guy was a First Round draft pick and projected to be great. He has produced an average of 6 sacks and 43 tackles per season.

Yes, the defense sucks... But Tamba hasn't lived up to his hype.

I don't know about the "projected to be great" part. My memory is that when he was drafted he was described as a high motor type player that overachieved but had limited upside potential.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-07-2009, 09:31 AM
Dorsey strength is that he has the quickness to penetrate gaps and get into the backfield.

He was used as the nose in the cover two, which limited his effectiveness.

If you ask him to add 20 pounds (or more) then you are completely eliminating the things that made him a top 5 pick.

At LSU, he was asked to tie up blockers and he did. He will be asked to do the same thing now. His quick feet will help him keep position. He also sheds blocks well and will be able to make plays on the runner. I think he will be good at either NT or DE.

chiefzilla1501
03-07-2009, 09:38 AM
At LSU, he was asked to tie up blockers and he did. He will be asked to do the same thing now. His quick feet will help him keep position. He also sheds blocks well and will be able to make plays on the runner. I think he will be good at either NT or DE.

Most people believe that was a huge misuse of his strengths and he certainly looked outmatched when he lined up in the nose in the NFL. Keep in mind that in college, he got a lot of push many times from driving blockers into the backfield--he can't do that on the pro level. Guards are so much bigger. And the other thing is that many question the strength of Dorsey in the legs. He's got tremendous upper-body strength, but the concerns about the health of his knees might have kept him from building the strength in his legs that would really help him gain that leverage.

Nose tackle is not a good use of his strengths. He is a typical 4-3 DT and he should be playing one-gap. At DE, he could actually do okay, as long as his height isn't a big problem. Unfortunately, it keeps him from exploding into the backfield, which is his strength, but hey... that's just a sacrifice we'll have to make.

Mr. Kotter
03-07-2009, 10:26 AM
Hali was good in coverage on zone blitzes. He has a good vertical, he has good initial burst, and most of the time he will be rushing the passer, not dropping back into coverage.

Most 3-4 defenses are played more like 5-2 defenses. Which is WHY I think drafting Curry is what will make this work.

With DJ and Curry, the Chiefs will have two very fast, very athletic linebackers that can cover sideline to sideline. The one difference is that Curry actually defeats blocks and tackles well. DJ will have to defeat fewer blocks in this scheme BECAUSE the defensive line isn't trying to rush upfield, just trying to tie up blockers.

The other part of the new scheme is that it will allow Pollard to drop down into the box more, again, a good fit for him.

I know that I am in the minority as far as Hali goes. I am cool with that. If I am right, then great. If I am wrong, I am going to catch it from EVERYONE.

Thems the breaks.


I'm a bit in this camp as well.

Many times, as SCF points out, the 3-4 becomes a 5-2/5-3 (OLBs are playing on the Line with little or no pass coverage responsibility). When Pollard is playing in the box, that effectively gives us 3 LBs anyway.

The concern I have is that although our young corners are good, will they be effective in more man-to-man and press coverage. In addition to the NT and Rushbacker we seem to lack....we probably need a tough press corner too.

I could see us using the 3-4 some this year, particularly on first and second down. However, in clear passing situations....we'll be going with a traditional nickle or dime package more often than not. Thus, until we get those three positions filled with solid guys, I suspect at best....we'll be running a hybrid.

We are just too far away from being able to field a real 3-4 to be able to run it very successfully this year.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-07-2009, 12:40 PM
Most people believe that was a huge misuse of his strengths and he certainly looked outmatched when he lined up in the nose in the NFL. Keep in mind that in college, he got a lot of push many times from driving blockers into the backfield--he can't do that on the pro level. Guards are so much bigger. And the other thing is that many question the strength of Dorsey in the legs. He's got tremendous upper-body strength, but the concerns about the health of his knees might have kept him from building the strength in his legs that would really help him gain that leverage.

Nose tackle is not a good use of his strengths. He is a typical 4-3 DT and he should be playing one-gap. At DE, he could actually do okay, as long as his height isn't a big problem. Unfortunately, it keeps him from exploding into the backfield, which is his strength, but hey... that's just a sacrifice we'll have to make.

Last year, I think he did much better than people give him credit for. He will have a full year in the Chiefs weight program and that will help him add a few pounds and strengthen his legs.

His height at NT isn't a problem because it allows him to stay low and maintain leverage.

All in all, I think he will be a fine fit and play NT and End at different times this year. I think the Chiefs will keep him at NT full time if he can add 30 lbs.

If he can get above 325, at 6'1"... he should be fine.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-07-2009, 12:43 PM
I'm a bit in this camp as well.

Many times, as SCF points out, the 3-4 becomes a 5-2/5-3 (OLBs are playing on the Line with little or no pass coverage responsibility). When Pollard is playing in the box, that effectively gives us 3 LBs anyway.

The concern I have is that although our young corners are good, will they be effective in more man-to-man and press coverage. In addition to the NT and Rushbacker we seem to lack....we probably need a tough press corner too.

I could see us using the 3-4 some this year, particularly on first and second down. However, in clear passing situations....we'll be going with a traditional nickle or dime package more often than not. Thus, until we get those three positions filled with solid guys, I suspect at best....we'll be running a hybrid.

We are just too far away from being able to field a real 3-4 to be able to run it very successfully this year.


In pure passing situations, I think the 3-4 is more important because the Chiefs don't have enough good rushing traditional DE's.

I think they will bring the safety and ILB blitz a good bit this year. I don't really want Crennel, because I think his 3-4 is a bit too passive for my taste. But, then again, what do I know?

keg in kc
03-07-2009, 12:47 PM
Rumor is Dorsey played close to 325 last year and that it cost him most of his explosion. Because that's too heavy for him.

And no, I don't think he had a bad year, either.

Mr. Kotter
03-07-2009, 03:17 PM
Rumor is Dorsey played close to 325 last year and that it cost him most of his explosion. Because that's too heavy for him.

And no, I don't think he had a bad year, either.

Then I say, have him cut 10-15 pounds, put him at DE and find a REAL damn NT somewhere. I honestly think he could be a beast at DE in a 3-4.

JohnnyV13
03-07-2009, 05:06 PM
I want Pioli to cut all these ****ing wastes of space just to shut the retards on this board up.

WHY AM I SO ANGRY?

Because you haven't decided whom you want to take your virginity.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-07-2009, 05:55 PM
Rumor is Dorsey played close to 325 last year and that it cost him most of his explosion. Because that's too heavy for him.

And no, I don't think he had a bad year, either.

I thought he played around 305... but I have no 'inside' information to base that on.

For a rookie, he held his own very well playing NT. And, if he can do that as a rookie, I don't see a problem with him playing NT in the 3-4 as he gets more experience and adds more weight.

It will be fun to see how the Chiefs use the players they already have in the new defense.

SenselessChiefsFan
03-07-2009, 05:58 PM
Then I say, have him cut 10-15 pounds, put him at DE and find a REAL damn NT somewhere. I honestly think he could be a beast at DE in a 3-4.

I think Dorsey could be good at NT or DE in the 3-4, and I think he will play inside and outside at times.

KcFanInGA
03-07-2009, 06:19 PM
Yeah, our defense was money last year in the 4-3. Why change it?

I really hope this is a joke.:banghead:

keg in kc
03-07-2009, 06:20 PM
I thought he played around 305... but I have no 'inside' information to base that on.

For a rookie, he held his own very well playing NT. And, if he can do that as a rookie, I don't see a problem with him playing NT in the 3-4 as he gets more experience and adds more weight.

It will be fun to see how the Chiefs use the players they already have in the new defense.I don't have any inside information either, it's just some speculation that I've heard a few times from a variety of people, and it goes on that they were planning on having him drop his weight this year (this was before new coaches were hired).

Just for me, I don't think he makes a whole lot of sense as a NT. His game is penetration, that's what got him drafted. I think if his weight is in the 300 range, although he's a little shorter than you'd prefer, he'd be a good fit for end, and flex undertackle for 4-3/nickel.

I'm not even sure we're going 3-4 to be honest. Not until they actually say it.

Blick
03-08-2009, 09:43 PM
I really hope this is a joke.:banghead:

You really couldn't tell? I was being sarcastic.