PDA

View Full Version : Hypothetical Monroe/Albert scenario


Pages : [1] 2

AustinChief
03-17-2009, 12:46 AM
IF the Chiefs took Monroe with the #3 pick.. (I am NOT advocating it, so shut up and just play along...)

Would you rather see Albert moved to RT (a position we have no clue if he can play) or would you rather see him shift inside to play LG where he has a few years of experience playing next to Monroe?

I keep seeing the constant assumption that we would move Albert to RT.. I just don't that as the best move (ok the best move is to draft defense at #3.. but you know what I mean)

Opinions?

SNR
03-17-2009, 12:50 AM
That has to piss Albert off. I'm sure he would rather play LT where he can make more money. Plus the fact that he gets nudged inside at Virginia, and then AGAIN at the pro level.

I'd move him to RT because there are two sides to an offensive line. A left and a right side.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 12:51 AM
He would be GREAT at pulling. I'm not sure if you can waste his quickness though.

AustinChief
03-17-2009, 12:52 AM
That has to piss Albert off. I'm sure he would rather play LT where he can make more money. Plus the fact that he gets nudged inside at Virginia, and then AGAIN at the pro level.

I'd move him to RT because there are two sides to an offensive line. A left and a right side.

I agree, it's like Todd Collins, backup to Grbac at U-M then backup to him here.... that had to suck.

Hopefully we won't have to face this scenario, but I just would feel more comfortable moving Waters to the right (if he even stays) and putting Albert in a position he knows next to a guy he has chemistry with.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 08:12 AM
I'd prefer RT. If he makes the transition, I'd try giving him another 9 mil guaranteed to extend his contract 2 years.

Count Alex's Losses
03-17-2009, 09:52 AM
Hasn't it already been discussed that Albert is actually a BETTER LT than Monroe, and Monroe was only playing there because he couldn't play anywhere else?

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 10:14 AM
Hasn't it already been discussed that Albert is actually a BETTER LT than Monroe, and Monroe was only playing there because he couldn't play anywhere else?

That's become the oral history of the Planet, but it doesn't necessarily make it true. Monroe backed up Brick at LT in 2005 and also played right guard. Albert started LG.

Soph season Monroe split LT with a kid named Stair while Albert remained at G. If Albert was so good, you'd think he would have gotten some time that year at LT instead of Stair.

In 2007 Monroe started 11 games at LOT (Albert played 2 when Monroe was injured) and Monroe didn't give up a single sack that year.

Albert declared early and Monroe stayed his Senior year at LT.

Brock
03-17-2009, 10:19 AM
No, you can pick up guards and second tier tackles later. Although unfortunately, I can see this happening due to the makeup of this draft.

Mr. Krab
03-17-2009, 10:21 AM
I imagine unless they trade our current left guard, Brian Waters, they would move Albert to the RT spot.

oldandslow
03-17-2009, 10:22 AM
No, you can pick up guards and second tier tackles later. Although unfortunately, I can see this happening due to the makeup of this draft.

I think you are right...

At least Albert wasn't picked top 10 so his salary reflects that.

As to the original ?, Albert plays LG, Monroe LT.

Waters, imo, will be gone.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 10:30 AM
In an interview Monroe said if KC takes him he'd be willing to move back to the right side.

Mr. Krab
03-17-2009, 10:35 AM
I worry about drafting an OT that already shows signs of knee problems.

ChiefsCountry
03-17-2009, 10:36 AM
In an interview Monroe said if KC takes him he'd be willing to move back to the right side.

That would be the stupidest shit ever. Paying that much jack for a right tackle.

Mr. Krab
03-17-2009, 10:49 AM
Monroe,Waters, Niswanger, McIntosh, Alberts

Mr. Flopnuts
03-17-2009, 10:52 AM
No, you can pick up guards and second tier tackles later. Although unfortunately, I can see this happening due to the makeup of this draft.

See, that's it. I know it doesn't make sense. If there isn't another elite prospect, do you ignore your desecrated offensive line because you already have a solid LT? Or do you slide him over and take another piece to that puzzle? Curry's not worth the 3 IMO, we have a QB, what do you do? This is a shitty spot to be in AFAIC.

StcChief
03-17-2009, 11:08 AM
In an interview Monroe said if KC takes him he'd be willing to move back to the right side.he knows #3 money is good. :hmmm:
LT,RT where ever they want me.

bowener
03-17-2009, 11:27 AM
I guess if we made this draft move I would like to see Albert play LG, where I think he can out perform Waters, and be a PB LG (and deserving of his money since he is paid similar to Steve Hutchinson~ I guess).

If that were to happen I would not be that surprised to find that we trade Brian Waters for a late 2nd round pick on draft day, using that to scoop up any players that may have fallen between the cracks. Possibly a top tier Guard or Center prospect, or a NT/OLB. In the end its just speculation, but I think we will get a 2nd rounder back some how.

oldandslow
03-17-2009, 11:58 AM
In the end its just speculation, but I think we will get a 2nd rounder back some how.

If the Pats can get J.Peppers for a high second rounder, ain't no way we are getting a 2 for Waters.

I think we trade him for a 3 or 4.

Monroe,Waters, Niswanger, McIntosh, Alberts

If we don't trade Waters, it could very well be this.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 12:21 PM
If the Pats can get J.Peppers for a high second rounder, ain't no way we are getting a 2 for Waters.

I think we trade him for a 3 or 4.

Monroe,Waters, Niswanger, McIntosh, Alberts

If we don't trade Waters, it could very well be this.

I'd rather keep Waters if a 4th round pick is all they can get.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 12:28 PM
If the Pats can get J.Peppers for a high second rounder, ain't no way we are getting a 2 for Waters.

I think we trade him for a 3 or 4.

Monroe,Waters, Niswanger, McIntosh, Alberts

If we don't trade Waters, it could very well be this.

McIntosh would be the worst guard ever.
See, that's it. I know it doesn't make sense. If there isn't another elite prospect, do you ignore your desecrated offensive line because you already have a solid LT? Or do you slide him over and take another piece to that puzzle? Curry's not worth the 3 IMO, we have a QB, what do you do? This is a shitty spot to be in AFAIC.

I don't care how you value the ILB position, you take Curry before an OT.

You're not ignoring the OL, you're planning to address it in the later rounds of the draft, where it should be.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2009, 12:31 PM
Drafting Monroe is the absolute worst decision that could be made. Given our position, we are probably best off going

1. Stafford
2. Sanchez
3. Raji
4. Brown
5. Maclin
6. Curry
7. Orakpo

Any one of those is preferable to drafting Monroe at 3.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 12:37 PM
Drafting Monroe is the absolute worst decision that could be made. Given our position, we are probably best off going

1. Stafford
2. Sanchez
3. Raji
4. Brown
5. Maclin
6. Curry
7. Orakpo

Any one of those is preferable to drafting Monroe at 3.

Monroe would start. Stafford and Sanchez wouldn't.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2009, 12:40 PM
Monroe would start. Stafford and Sanchez wouldn't.

Alex Mack would start at Center. Andy Levitre would start at guard. It doesn't make them a great pick at 3.

DeezNutz
03-17-2009, 12:45 PM
Monroe would start. Stafford and Sanchez wouldn't.

You don't know that. And you don't know that.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 12:46 PM
You don't know that. And you don't know that.

They are paying Cassel 14 million to sit?

Tribal Warfare
03-17-2009, 12:51 PM
Monroe would be a waste for KC at this time, due to the value and potential he holds for the Chiefs currently. KC is bringing in T.J. Lang from Eastern Michigan for a look at the OG position BTW.

<embed src="http://www.metacafe.com/fplayer/2482599/tj_lang_ol_eastern_michigan.swf" width="400" height="345" wmode="transparent" allowFullScreen="true" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> </embed><br><font size = 1><a href="http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2482599/tj_lang_ol_eastern_michigan/">TJ Lang - OL - Eastern Michigan</a> - <a href="http://www.metacafe.com/">The funniest videos clips are here</a></font>

Brock
03-17-2009, 01:09 PM
They are paying Cassel 14 million to sit?

I doubt they'll be paying Cassel 14 million to do anything.

DeezNutz
03-17-2009, 01:12 PM
I doubt they'll be paying Cassel 14 million to do anything.

That's what I think, too.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 01:29 PM
I doubt they'll be paying Cassel 14 million to do anything.

He's going to take a voluntary pay cut?

Brock
03-17-2009, 01:36 PM
He's going to take a voluntary pay cut?

You think he expects to play next season at that number? They've most likely been negotiating that for a month.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 01:41 PM
You think he expects to play next season at that number? They've most likely been negotiating that for a month.

Why would he settle for a penny less?

Brock
03-17-2009, 01:49 PM
Why would he settle for a penny less?

He isn't going to settle for less, he's going to be wanting a long term deal with a signing bonus of probably more than that. But it won't be 14 million for one year.

CoMoChief
03-17-2009, 01:55 PM
Monroe, Albert, Center from Lousiville, Waters, Taylor

AustinChief
03-17-2009, 01:55 PM
Drafting Monroe is the absolute worst decision that could be made. Given our position, we are probably best off going

1. Stafford
2. Sanchez
3. Raji
4. Brown
5. Maclin
6. Curry
7. Orakpo

Any one of those is preferable to drafting Monroe at 3.

Not the question... this is just a what if... IF we drafted Monroe, where do you put Albert... I think LG is the best spot .

keg in kc
03-17-2009, 02:05 PM
I believe Albert is already a better left tackle than Monroe, and that he'll have had a better run in the NFL by the time both their careers are over. The problem is that Monroe can't play anywhere else, which is why Albert was playing guard at UVA in the first place.

If they did take Monroe, then Albert would be my pick for right guard in 2009. Be like having Will Shields back. Waters would be the vet on the left side by the rookie tackle, rather than Albert transitioning, meaning two new young starters on the left side and Waters moving out of the position he's been in for years. That still leaves center and right tackle as problems, of course.

As for Cassel, he's better served with a long-term contract. Higher one-time bonus, plus guaranteed salary over a number of years.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 02:09 PM
He isn't going to settle for less, he's going to be wanting a long term deal with a signing bonus of probably more than that. But it won't be 14 million for one year.

So you'd wrap him up to a long term deal right now rather than give him a 1 year tryout at the 14 mil figure? Romo and Bulger received between 27 and 30 mil guaranteed. You want to hand him nearly 30 mil guaranteed right now?

Brock
03-17-2009, 02:10 PM
So you'd wrap him up to a long term deal right now rather than give him a 1 year tryout at the 14 mil figure? Romo and Bulger received between 27 and 30 mil guaranteed. You want to hand him nearly 30 mil guaranteed right now?

That's most likely what he will get. This isn't about what I would do, we've already veered off that track long ago.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 02:15 PM
I'd rather keep Waters if a 4th round pick is all they can get.

All you can get?

Do you know how many current NFL starters (and good ones, at that) were drafted in the 4th round?

Give me a break. If the Chiefs can get a 4th rounder for a 32 year old malcontent, I'd be happy as shit.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 02:17 PM
Monroe, Albert, Center from Lousiville, Waters, Taylor

That is about the most pathetic projection for the Chiefs offensive line that I've seen this offseason.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 02:18 PM
As for Cassel, he's better served with a long-term contract. Higher one-time bonus, plus guaranteed salary over a number of years.

Since the Chiefs are like $30 million under the salary floor, I'd pay Cassel the franchise amount and give him a one year try out. IMO, there's no reason to lock him up long term at this point and it's possible (though not likely) that he could be trade bait again in 2010.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2009, 02:35 PM
Not the question... this is just a what if... IF we drafted Monroe, where do you put Albert... I think LG is the best spot .

What is the point of the question? Seriously, it's like asking if you'd want to shoot yourself in the right or left nut.

If you're asking where he'd have the most value, it's right tackle, but it wouldn't be his second best position, it's left guard. He's not a mauler, he's a technician.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 02:35 PM
All you can get?

Do you know how many current NFL starters (and good ones, at that) were drafted in the 4th round?

Give me a break. If the Chiefs can get a 4th rounder for a 32 year old malcontent, I'd be happy as shit.

He's worth more to the team than a 4th round project at this point. They need to be able to play out of a pro set, protect the QB and open some running lanes.

keg in kc
03-17-2009, 02:36 PM
Since the Chiefs are like $30 million under the salary floor, I'd pay Cassel the franchise amount and give him a one year try out. IMO, there's no reason to lock him up long term at this point and it's possible (though not likely) that he could be trade bait again in 2010.I don't think they'd trade a high second rounder for a one year try out. We'll see what they do.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 02:46 PM
He's worth more to the team than a 4th round project at this point. They need to be able to play out of a pro set, protect the QB and open some running lanes.

I don't buy that for one second.

You can find guards anywhere after the 4th round. Ryan Lilja was an undrafted free agent. Same as Waters.

You know who wasn't an undrafted free agent?

Ko Simpson, Jhari Evans, Marion Barber, Leon Washington, Gabe Watson, Brad Smith, Brandon Marshall, Domenik Hixon, Sean Considine, Brandon Jacobs, Chris Canty, Darren Sproles, Jared Allen, Assante Samuel and Shaun Phillips to name a few.

What do they have in common? All fourth rounders.

I'll take a 4th for Waters.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 03:36 PM
I don't buy that for one second.

You can find guards anywhere after the 4th round. Ryan Lilja was an undrafted free agent. Same as Waters.

You know who wasn't an undrafted free agent?

Ko Simpson, Jhari Evans, Marion Barber, Leon Washington, Gabe Watson, Brad Smith, Brandon Marshall, Domenik Hixon, Sean Considine, Brandon Jacobs, Chris Canty, Darren Sproles, Jared Allen, Assante Samuel and Shaun Phillips to name a few.

What do they have in common? All fourth rounders.

I'll take a 4th for Waters.

I'm sure they will be able to find second day draft picks that are able to come in and play LG, C, RG and RT all in one draft.

Rain Man
03-17-2009, 05:08 PM
Trading a pro bowl guard for a fourth-round pick is insane. Especially on a team whose line was beaten like an Afghan wife last year. So just stop that talk.

I'd draft Monroe and move Albert to right tackle. A little upgrade at RG and C and we suddenly have a line that will protect our new quarterback and give our running backs some room.

My only other preference would be to arrange a trade if one of the QBs is coming our way.

ChiefsCountry
03-17-2009, 05:48 PM
Trading a pro bowl guard for a fourth-round pick is insane. Especially on a team whose line was beaten like an Afghan wife last year. So just stop that talk.


He is a guard, an old one at that who's play is slipping. Lets ship his out for about anything.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-17-2009, 06:00 PM
Waters is a pretty average guard without Bill Roaf next to him.

Rain Man
03-17-2009, 06:36 PM
Waters is a pretty average guard without Bill Roaf next to him.

He is a guard, an old one at that who's play is slipping. Lets ship his out for about anything.


Roaf makes us all better people, but nonetheless Waters went to Hawaii this year. And before anyone says that he's getting in on past reputation, recall that a) he didn't make the pro bowl last year, and b) he was on a 2-14 team.

I'd rather have three more years of Waters than roll the dice on plucking the gems out of these guys (4th round picks selected from random years of 2005 and 2002).

4 1 102 Sean Considine Eagles DB Iowa
2 103 Antonio Perkins Browns DB Oklahoma
3 104 Travis Daniels Dolphins DB Louisiana State
4 105 Ray Willis Seahawks T Florida State
5 106 Kyle Orton Bears QB Purdue
6 107 Dan Buenning Buccaneers G Wisconsin
7 108 Vincent Fuller Titans DB Virginia Tech
8 109 Marion Barber Cowboys RB Minnesota
9 110 Brandon Jacobs Giants RB Southern Illinois
10 111 Elton Brown Cardinals G Virginia
11 112 Ciatrick Fason Vikings RB Florida
12 113 David Stewart Titans T Mississippi State
13 114 Jerome Mathis Texans WR Hampton
14 115 Marviel Underwood Packers DB San Diego State
15 116 Craphonso Thorpe Chiefs WR Florida State
16 117 Jerome Carter Rams DB Florida State
17 118 Chase Lyman Saints WR California
18 119 Eric Ghiaciuc Bengals C Central Michigan
19 120 Manuel White Redskins RB UCLA
20 121 Stefan Lefors Panthers QB Louisville
21 122 Duke Preston Bills C Illinois
22 123 Kerry Rhodes Jets DB Louisville
23 124 Jason Brown Ravens C North Carolina
24 125 Brady Poppinga Packers LB Brigham Young
25 126 Todd Herremans Eagles T Saginaw Valley State
26 127 Alvin Pearman Jaguars RB Virginia
27 128 Chauncey Davis Falcons DE Florida State
28 129 Dylan Gandy Colts G Texas Tech
29 130 Darren Sproles Chargers RB Kansas State
30 131 Fred Gibson Steelers WR Georgia
31 132 Chris Canty Cowboys DE Virginia
32 133 James Sanders Patriots DB Fresno State
33 134 Claude Terrell Rams G New Mexico
34 135 Matt Giordano Colts DB California
35 136 Roydell Williams Titans WR Tulane


4 1 99 Jonathan Wells Texans RB Ohio State
2 100 Dante Wesley Panthers DB Arkansas-Pine Bluff
3 101 Kevin Bentley Browns LB Northwestern
4 102 Jeff Chandler 49ers K Florida
5 103 Justin Peelle Chargers TE Oregon
6 104 Alex Brown Bears DE Florida
7 105 Brian Williams Vikings DB North Carolina State
8 106 David Thorton Colts LB North Carolina
9 107 Omar Easy Chiefs RB Penn State
10 108 David Garrard Jaguars QB East Carolina
11 109 Travis Dorsch Bengals K Purdue
12 110 Mike Echols Titans DB Wisconsin
13 111 Ben Taylor Browns LB Virginia Tech
14 112 Dave Zastudil Ravens P Ohio
15 113 Nate Dwyer Cardinals DT Kansas
16 114 Randy McMichael Dolphins TE Georgia
17 115 Tony Beckham Titans DB Wisconsin-Stout
18 116 Martin Bibla Falcons G Miami (FL)
19 117 Rohan Davey Patriots QB Louisiana State
20 118 Chris Luzar Jaguars TE Virginia
21 119 Travis Stephens Buccaneers RB Tennessee
22 120 Terreal Bierria Seahawks DB Georgia
23 121 Alan Harper Jets DT Fresno State
24 122 Darnell Sanders Browns TE Ohio State
25 123 Ron Johnson Ravens WR Minnesota
26 124 Scott Peters Eagles C Arizona State
27 125 Keyuo Craver Saints DB Nebraska
28 126 Jarvis Green Patriots DE Louisiana State
29 127 Kevin Curtis 49ers DB Texas Tech
30 128 Larry Foote Steelers LB Michigan
31 129 Jamar Martin Cowboys RB Ohio State
32 130 Travis Scott Rams G Arizona State
33 131 Sam Brandon Broncos DB UNLV
34 132 Edward Ta'amu Vikings G Utah
35 133 Rocky Boiman Titans LB Notre Dame
36 134 John Taylor Lions LB Montana State
37 135 Najeh Davenport Packers RB Miami (FL)

Mr. Krab
03-17-2009, 07:03 PM
Roaf makes us all better people, but nonetheless Waters went to Hawaii this year. And before anyone says that he's getting in on past reputation, recall that a) he didn't make the pro bowl last year, and b) he was on a 2-14 team.

I'd rather have three more years of Waters than roll the dice on plucking the gems out of these guys (4th round picks selected from random years of 2005 and 2002).
Did you see how many times Waters got smoked like year? I realize that it had something to do with being coached by a bunch of dumbasses but still.

Mecca
03-17-2009, 07:32 PM
Brian Waters hasn't been all that good since Roaf retired, and guard is arguably the least valuable position on a team.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 07:35 PM
I'm sure they will be able to find second day draft picks that are able to come in and play LG, C, RG and RT all in one draft.

I'm pretty sure they'll be able to find guys from rounds 2-5 that would be immediate starters.

This is an extremely deep class for centers, guards and tackles.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 07:37 PM
Roaf makes us all better people, but nonetheless Waters went to Hawaii this year. And before anyone says that he's getting in on past reputation, recall that a) he didn't make the pro bowl last year, and b) he was on a 2-14 team.

I'd rather have three more years of Waters than roll the dice on plucking the gems out of these guys (4th round picks selected from random years of 2005 and 2002).



You're missing the point.

I listed several extremely productive 4th round players, from Westbrook to Jared Allen and beyond.

If you believe the hype from the Pioli peeps, it should be a no-brainer for him to nab a talented player with that additional pick.

Get it.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 08:32 PM
But dane I thought according to you impact players were only found in the first round. I would still like to know why you called me an idiot in my mock thread, dumbass.

Mecca
03-17-2009, 08:35 PM
Generally it has to do with the position they play...as to what impact they'll make for the round they are taken in.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 08:38 PM
Obviously it's easier to find devalued positions later on.

I'm not disagreeing with the point at all, I'd just like "Mr. Talk" to finish the original argument. Not call me an idiot and then offer no response to my answer. It's St. Patty's I'm drunk and I've got an hour, let's f****** argue:$2500:

bdeg
03-17-2009, 09:38 PM
Figures. %(/. Run away . . . :lame:

:moon:4321

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 09:46 PM
But dane I thought according to you impact players were only found in the first round. I would still like to know why you called me an idiot in my mock thread, dumbass.

Impact PASS RUSHERS, dumbass.

IF there is an IMPACT PASS RUSHER, he's going to be chosen in the Top 5.

Since it appears that you're new at this, not all positions carry the same value. Centers, guards and right tackles can be found anywhere from the 2nd to the 5th rounds and can start immediately.

Look no further than last year's draft of Carl Nicks in the 5th round. He started at right tackle for the most potent offense in the league.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 09:58 PM
Impact PASS RUSHERS, dumbass.

IF there is an IMPACT PASS RUSHER, he's going to be chosen in the Top 5.

Since it appears that you're new at this, not all positions carry the same value. Centers, guards and right tackles can be found anywhere from the 2nd to the 5th rounds and can start immediately.

Look no further than last year's draft of Carl Nicks in the 5th round. He started at right tackle for the most potent offense in the league.

no shit punk

Obviously it's easier to find devalued positions later on.



So if impact pass rushers are only chosen in the top five how come more than half of the best pass rushers were selected in the third round or later?

It's because scouting departments are still figuring out how to value certain traits. It's not perfect, and just because most mock drafters don't think a player is a top-5 talent DOESN't mean he won't turn out to be.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:04 PM
Did you REALLY just hide for an hour until you thought I'd be gone, come back with nothing, and then disappear again when you got your shit owned?

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 10:05 PM
no shit punk

GFY you drunk bastard.



So if impact pass rushers are only chosen in the top five how come more than half of the best pass rushers were selected in the third round or later?

Do you understand that when you draft a player in the first or second round, you're not drafting on potential, you're drafting for IMMEDIATE IMPACT? Do you get that?

You don't draft a guy in the first round and "hope he pans out". That fucking retarded. You draft him and play him immediately. He's an NFL starter before he even signs the contract. If he's not, you've fucked your team AND your salary cap.

It's because scouting departments are still figuring out how to value certain traits. It's not perfect, and just because most mock drafters don't think a player is a top-5 talent DOESN't mean he won't turn out to be.

No shit, Sherlock. But you don't spend a Top 5 pick on a guy unless you're absolutely positive that he's going to be an animal. Otherwise, you take him late in draft, based on potential. You can't draft guys in the Top Five because you THINK they might become an impact player years down the road.

That's fucking stupid. And that's what you were implying with your draft.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 10:07 PM
I'm pretty sure they'll be able to find guys from rounds 2-5 that would be immediate starters.

This is an extremely deep class for centers, guards and tackles.

Put on your red ruby slippers, and click your heels three times if you think you can get immediate starters across the OL in one draft from second day picks.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:08 PM
GFY you drunk bastard.





Do you understand that when you draft a player in the first or second round, you're not drafting on potential, you're drafting for IMMEDIATE IMPACT? Do you get that?

You don't draft a guy in the first round and "hope he pans out". That ****ing retarded. You draft him and play him immediately. He's an NFL starter before he even signs the contract. If he's not, you've ****ed your team AND your salary cap.



No shit, Sherlock. But you don't spend a Top 5 pick on a guy unless you're absolutely positive that he's going to be an animal. Otherwise, you take him late in draft, based on potential. You can't draft guys in the Top Five because you THINK they might become an impact player years down the road.

That's ****ing stupid. And that's what you were implying with your draft.
No player is a sure thing. Players are drafted on potential all the time.


If you don't draft on potential you end up with Tamba Hali.

If you don't think nearly every QB taken is a gamble on potential, you haven't been paying attention.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 10:09 PM
Did you REALLY just hide for an hour until you thought I'd be gone, come back with nothing, and then disappear again when you got your shit owned?

You're a stupid, fucking dickhead. I had to eat dinner with my family, bathe my infant daughter and take a shower.

Need anymore details, Asswipe?

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 10:10 PM
No player is a sure thing. Players are drafted on potential all the time.


If you don't draft on potential you end up with Tamba Hali.

If you don't think nearly every QB taken is a gamble on potential, you haven't been paying attention.

Okay, now I get it.

You're an outright dumbfuck.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:11 PM
And I'm talking about the first round, let alone the argument that "players aren't drafted on potential in the second round" WOW! we have a record for dumbassery here folks. Anyone seen a draft in the last ten years?

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:12 PM
Okay, now I get it.

You're an outright dumb****.

Explain and defend yourself and your opinion instead of insulting me.

BTW, I couldn't care less about what you claim you had to do. You brought this on yourself.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:19 PM
Do you understand that when you draft a player in the first or second round, you're not drafting on potential, you're drafting for IMMEDIATE IMPACT? Do you get that?
No shit, Sherlock. But you don't spend a Top 5 pick on a guy unless you're absolutely positive that he's going to be an animal. Otherwise, you take him late in draft, based on potential. You can't draft guys in the Top Five because you THINK they might become an impact player years down the road.

That's ****ing stupid. And that's what you were implying with your draft.

This part is my favorite because in the thread i bet you $20 that everette brown would win DROY(meaning immediate f****** impact pass rusher) vs your pick

of course no reply. I'm seeing a pattern here. Copy what someone else says and then spew insults and run away when it's disproven instead of being able to rationally refute anything I've said. GREAT.
4321

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 10:24 PM
So if impact pass rushers are only chosen in the top five how come more than half of the best pass rushers were selected in the third round or later?

Half? HALF? You REALLY need to get your facts straight:

1. DeMarcus Ware (First round)
2. Joey Porter (Third Round)
3. John Abraham (First Round)
4. James Harrison (UDFA)
5. Jared Allen (Fourth Round)
6. Julius Peppers (First Round)
7. Justin Tuck (Fourth Round)
8. Mario Williams (First Round)
9. Robert Mathis (Fifth Round)
10. Lamar Woodley (Second Round)
11. Dwight Freeney (First Round)
12. Darren Howard (First Round)
13. Aaron Kampman (Fifth Round)
14. Trent Cole (Fifth Round)
15. Albert Haynesworth (First Round)

Out of the Top 15 Pass rushers in 2008, 46.67% were drafted in the FIRST ROUND. 6.67% were drafted in the second and third. Two were chosen in the 4th (13%) three in the 5th, none in the 6th or 7th and one undrafted free agent (who was cut multiple times).

So, as with quarterbacks, you're far more likely to find star pass rusher in the first round than you are in any other round.

By far.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 10:25 PM
This part is my favorite because in the thread i bet you $20 that everette brown would win DROY(meaning immediate f****** impact pass rusher) vs your pick

of course no reply. I'm seeing a pattern here. Copy what someone else says and then spew insults and run away when it's disproven instead of being able to rationally refute anything I've said. GREAT.
4321

Huh?

We haven't seen a retard in the parts like you in a long, long, long time.

Welcome, you fucking stupid n00b.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:29 PM
Half? HALF? You REALLY need to get your facts straight:

1. DeMarcus Ware (First round)
2. Joey Porter (Third Round)
3. John Abraham (First Round)
4. James Harrison (UDFA)
5. Jared Allen (Fourth Round)
6. Julius Peppers (First Round)
7. Justin Tuck (Fourth Round)
8. Mario Williams (First Round)
9. Robert Mathis (Fifth Round)
10. Lamar Woodley (Second Round)
11. Dwight Freeney (First Round)
12. Darren Howard (First Round)
13. Aaron Kampman (Fifth Round)
14. Trent Cole (Fifth Round)
15. Albert Haynesworth (First Round)

Out of the Top 15 Pass rushers in 2008, 46.67% were drafted in the FIRST ROUND. 6.67% were drafted in the second and third. 20% in the 5th, none in the 6th or 7th and one undrafted free agent (who was cut multiple times).

So, as with quarterbacks, you're far more likely to find star pass rusher in the first round than you are in any other round.

By far.

Well that depends how many you count. In my analysis I took the top 5 and then top 10.

I guess you really proved you can't find impact pass rushers later on. Great job, little buddy. Better luck next time.

BY THE WAY, the thing that set all this off was your point that impact pass rushers(should we just start saying IPR? I'm sick of typing that) would definitely be rated in the top 5 pre-draft rankings.

Absolutely RIDICULOUS.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 10:29 PM
This part is my favorite because in the thread i bet you $20 that everette brown would win DROY(meaning immediate f****** impact pass rusher) vs your pick

of course no reply. I'm seeing a pattern here. Copy what someone else says and then spew insults and run away when it's disproven instead of being able to rationally refute anything I've said. GREAT.


First, you've said nothing "rational". Secondly, you should avoid doing any more mock drafts if you're going to get your panties in a bunch when people disagree.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 10:32 PM
Well that depends how many you count. In my analysis I took the top 5 and then top 10.

I guess you really proved you can't find impact pass rushers later on.

I "proved" that the likelihood of finding an elite pass rusher is wholly dictated on draft position.

I only listed the Top 15 pass rushers in 2008 and their draft position. Do I need to go back 10 years to list all of the "potential" pass rushers taken in rounds three through seven to prove that it's nearly impossible to hit on a pass rusher statistically on Day 2?

Use your head.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 10:33 PM
BY THE WAY, the thing that set all this off was your point that impact pass rushers(should we just start saying IPR? I'm sick of typing that) would definitely be rated in the top 5 pre-draft rankings.

Absolutely RIDICULOUS.

Oh, this is fucking TOO rich.

Please, keep 'em coming!

LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:34 PM
Really?

So you're advocating that the Chiefs pass on what could be the best offensive lineman draft in maybe decades to draft an "impact pass rusher" that doesn't exist in the 2009 draft?

Where's Mario Williams? Where's Julius Peppers? Where's Bruce Smith? Where's Derrick Thomas? Where's Neil Smith?

Oh, there ISN'T one in 2009.

But you know what there is? GREAT centers. GREAT left tackles. And a very good crop of guards.


YA DANE, let's draft f****** MONROE instead of getting a possibly elite pass rusher.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:34 PM
First, you've said nothing "rational". Secondly, you should avoid doing any more mock drafts if you're going to get your panties in a bunch when people disagree.

You disputed 0 picks in my mock draft. Pick one, please. I'd love some feedback.

Rain Man
03-17-2009, 10:35 PM
If teams can get pro bowl guards in the fourth round, then we would have 64 pro bowl guards and planes would be going down all over the South Pacific.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:35 PM
Dane McCloud wants to draft Monroe that's all I or anyone else on CP needs to know.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:37 PM
This whole thing is hilarious because I'm actually advocating taking a pass rusher in the first and Dane wants to essentially draft a RT.

F****** hilarious. I'm going to quote it again for emphasis.
Really?

So you're advocating that the Chiefs pass on what could be the best offensive lineman draft in maybe decades to draft an "impact pass rusher" that doesn't exist in the 2009 draft?

Where's Mario Williams? Where's Julius Peppers? Where's Bruce Smith? Where's Derrick Thomas? Where's Neil Smith?

Oh, there ISN'T one in 2009.

But you know what there is? GREAT centers. GREAT left tackles. And a very good crop of guards.


This one too.




You need to do more research. Why don't you go ahead and tell who the last, immediate impact pass rusher was that wasn't drafted in the first round.

Your "numbers" are extremely inaccurate.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:40 PM
Make up your mind Dane. Or, ya know, just call me an idiot again.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:41 PM
And for those giving his post too much credit,no I never suggested we ignore the OL and am hoping to draft at least a center if not 3 OL this draft.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 10:43 PM
Dane McCloud wants to draft Monroe that's all I or anyone else on CP needs to know.

Go ahead and keep embarrassing yourself.

You seem to be pretty good at it.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 10:45 PM
This whole thing is hilarious because I'm actually advocating taking a pass rusher in the first and Dane wants to essentially draft a RT.

F****** hilarious. I'm going to quote it again for emphasis.


Again, for the second time in this thread, this was directed at another member with a trade in mind. The Chiefs in that scenario would be picking at #23, NOT #3 overall.

Reading comprehension is certainly not your strong suit.

No. I made the comment based on his trade back to #23 overall, not #3.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:48 PM
Well how does that comment make sense?


"So you're advocating that the Chiefs pass on what could be the best offensive lineman draft in maybe decades to draft an "impact pass rusher" that doesn't exist in the 2009 draft?"


The point remains that you claim no impact pass rusher exists in this draft.

You have no such knowledge, don't act like you do.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:48 PM
Go ahead and keep embarrassing yourself.

You seem to be pretty good at it.

Well when you don't have anything substantial to say, revert back to your habits I guess.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 10:49 PM
Well how does that comment make sense?


"So you're advocating that the Chiefs pass on what could be the best offensive lineman draft in maybe decades to draft an "impact pass rusher" that doesn't exist in the 2009 draft?"

I was advocating Brown at #6. When did I comment on this #23 bullshit? You brought me into that when I had no comment.

No, once again, you brought yourself into the conversation.

ChiefsNJ and I were discussing other players and you hopped in, not understanding that we were discussing the #23 spot (based on a trade), NOT the #3 spot.

Then you proceeded to go nuts.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:51 PM
I misunderstood that you were talking to him. I have already edited my post, please respond to that instead.


*The point remains that you claim no impact pass rusher exists in this draft.

You have no such knowledge, don't act like you do.

Once again, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm willing to bet $20 that one player out of this draft ranks in the top 10 in sacks within the next 2 years.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 10:56 PM
No, once again, you brought yourself into the conversation.

ChiefsNJ and I were discussing other players and you hopped in, not understanding that we were discussing the #23 spot (based on a trade), NOT the #3 spot.

Then you proceeded to go nuts.

When was I talking about a trade and the #23 spot? I don't recall any of that. Then again, it's late on the east coast.

bdeg
03-17-2009, 10:58 PM
No, once again, you brought yourself into the conversation.

ChiefsNJ and I were discussing other players and you hopped in, not understanding that we were discussing the #23 spot (based on a trade), NOT the #3 spot.

Then you proceeded to go nuts.

BULLS*IT You quoted me.

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdeg View Post
Those positions are a lot easier to fill through FA and later picks than an impact pass rusher.


DANE:Really?
So you're advocating that the Chiefs pass on what could be the
best offensive lineman draft in maybe decades to draft an "impact pass rusher" that doesn't exist in the 2009 draft?

Where's Mario Williams? Where's Julius Peppers? Where's Bruce Smith? Where's Derrick Thomas? Where's Neil Smith?

Oh, there ISN'T one in 2009.

But you know what there is? GREAT centers. GREAT left tackles. And a very good crop of guards.

And furthermore, WHERE are these "free agent" lineman you speak of? The best center signed with the Rams. The free-agency class of lineman was extremely weak and all that's left now are bunch of scrubs at best."


Why am I the only one who sees through Dane? He just repeats what he sees as the consensus opinion and demeans anyone who disagrees. Go suck a big fat one. I'm out.

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 11:05 PM
BULLS*IT You quoted me.

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdeg View Post
Those positions are a lot easier to fill through FA and later picks than an impact pass rusher.
Really?

DANE: So you're advocating that the Chiefs pass on what could be the best offensive lineman draft in maybe decades to draft an "impact pass rusher" that doesn't exist in the 2009 draft?

Where's Mario Williams? Where's Julius Peppers? Where's Bruce Smith? Where's Derrick Thomas? Where's Neil Smith?

Oh, there ISN'T one in 2009.

But you know what there is? GREAT centers. GREAT left tackles. And a very good crop of guards.

And furthermore, WHERE are these "free agent" lineman you speak of? The best center signed with the Rams. The free-agency class of lineman was extremely weak and all that's left now are bunch of scrubs at best."


Why am I the only one who sees through Dane? He just repeats what he sees as the consensus opinion and demeans anyone who disagrees.

You're such a dumbfuck.

Again, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE #23 SPOT.

Furthermore, THERE ARE NO GAME CHANGING, PASS RUSHING SPECIALISTS IN THIS DRAFT THAT WE KNOW OF.

If there were, they'd unequivocally be rated in the Top 5.

NO DOUBT.

Or, are you going to argue that if the 2004 draft were held again, that Jared Allen wouldn't be a Top 5 pick?

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 11:12 PM
When was I talking about a trade and the #23 spot? I don't recall any of that. Then again, it's late on the east coast.

Okay, no offense to you Chiefnj2. This is the progression of a discussion that occurred in Bdeg's mock draft thread. I think this will clear up everything. It sure as hell better! :)

IMO, I believe Pioli will try his hardest to trade to the bottom half of the round and " KC could be picking #3 or move down to #23" is indicative of that.

I believe they're eyeing Barwin or English if a full out trade scenario occurs.

I'd think Mack or Unger.

I honestly expect the Chiefs to get at least three starting offensive lineman in this draft. As much as the defense sucks, it can wait until next year to fix.

I just cannot envision them sending out Cassel behind Niswanger, Sackintosh and Jones.

That would just be a waste of a 2nd rounder because Cassel wouldn't survive out there.

Those positions are a lot easier to fill through FA and later picks than an impact pass rusher.

Really?

So you're advocating that the Chiefs pass on what could be the best offensive lineman draft in maybe decades to draft an "impact pass rusher" that doesn't exist in the 2009 draft?

Where's Mario Williams? Where's Julius Peppers? Where's Bruce Smith? Where's Derrick Thomas? Where's Neil Smith?

Oh, there ISN'T one in 2009.

But you know what there is? GREAT centers. GREAT left tackles. And a very good crop of guards.

And furthermore, WHERE are these "free agent" lineman you speak of? The best center signed with the Rams. The free-agency class of lineman was extremely weak and all that's left now are bunch of scrubs at best.

You have no idea whether or not great pass rushers will emerge by this time next year. It could be Selvie, or Hardy or the kid from TCU if they have monster seasons.

All of a sudden, you want to take a LT this year?

A LT would be a waste of a pick, I'm not going to rehash that again. I'd love to get a center and said we should take Mack if we can get a 2nd and he's there.

You don't know Brown, Barwin, or anyone else won't be great. What percentage of current elite pass-rushers were uniformly regarded as top-5 talent coming out(I say uniformly because I've seen Brown going #1 in mocks)? Maybe 1 out of every 3 or 4?

and here's one http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=204111

When you have a roster as talent depleted as the Chiefs, you can't take chances on guys like Selvie or Hardy becoming a dominant pass rusher. It's not like the Chiefs are ONE player away from competing and neither of those guys you mentioned appear to be a dominant, game changing player.

If they were, they'd be rated higher.



No. I made the comment based on his trade back to #23 overall, not #3.

Again, you should read a little more carefully. I said Mack at #23 in your trade back scenario, not a LT at #3.



You need to do more research. Why don't you go ahead and tell who the last, immediate impact pass rusher was that wasn't drafted in the first round.

Your "numbers" are extremely inaccurate.




Great. A guy who couldn't cut it with a worse offense than the Chiefs. That really sounds like a long-term upgrade.

:rolleyes:

Are stating that none of these players will be first rounders or that there was another year of college evaluation needed?

One more thing: Great pass rushers don't grow on trees and they don't often go unnoticed by the NFL. If there were any great pass rusher that they know of, we'd know of them.

milkman
03-17-2009, 11:17 PM
That's become the oral history of the Planet, but it doesn't necessarily make it true. Monroe backed up Brick at LT in 2005 and also played right guard. Albert started LG.

Soph season Monroe split LT with a kid named Stair while Albert remained at G. If Albert was so good, you'd think he would have gotten some time that year at LT instead of Stair.

In 2007 Monroe started 11 games at LOT (Albert played 2 when Monroe was injured) and Monroe didn't give up a single sack that year.

Albert declared early and Monroe stayed his Senior year at LT.

The reason that Albert stayed inside is because he moves better in space, and Viriginia did/does a lot of pulling.

Monroe isn't as gifted athletically as Albert, and doesn't have nearly as fluid foot movement.

In college, you aren't facing the same kind of speed and athleticism week in and week out at DE, you don't have to be the most athletic and fluid LT to succeed.

That's why guys like Robert Gallery and Levi Brown have success in college and struggle in the NFL.

But in the NFL, when you have guy like Dwight Freeny, Julius Peppers, Jared Allen, Shawne "roidman" Merriman, DeMarcus Ware, etc., you need the most athletically gifted O-Lineman on the edge.

Monroe is going to be a good, even outstanding, LT, in the NFl.

But Albert is more athletic, and has quicker feet, and is going to be an elite LT in the NFL.

DeezNutz
03-17-2009, 11:18 PM
The reason that Albert stayed inside is because he moves better in space, and Viriginia did/does a lot of pulling.

Monroe isn't as gifted athletically as Albert, and doesn't have nearly as fluid foot movement.

In college, you aren't facing the same kind of speed and athleticism week in and week out at DE, you don't have to be the most athletic and fluid LT to succeed.

That's why guys like Robert Gallery and Levi Brown have success in college and struggle in the NFL.

But in the NFL, when you have guy like Dwight Freeny, Julius Peppers, Jared Allen, Shawne "roidman" Merriman, DeMarcus Ware, etc., you need the most athletically gifted O-Lineman on the edge.

Monroe is going to be a good, even outstanding, LT, in the NFl.

But Albert is more athletic, and has quicker feet, and is going to be an elite LT in the NFL.

Nice analysis.

Chiefnj2
03-17-2009, 11:20 PM
I didn't realize that this was a cross thread discussion from last week. (I'm referencing post 91)

DaneMcCloud
03-17-2009, 11:21 PM
I didn't realize that this was a cross thread discussion from last week.

Bdeg made it that way.

Taking quotes out of context and trying to convince me and everyone else that I said something that I never said.

milkman
03-17-2009, 11:22 PM
Not the question... this is just a what if... IF we drafted Monroe, where do you put Albert... I think LG is the best spot .

We leave Albert at LT, and move Monroe to RT.

And FTR, drafting Monroe, regardless of how they line up, would be the stupidest fucking decision we could possibly make.

The bottom line is this.

Drafting Monroe is filling a need at RT or guard, and that is terrible fucking value.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 12:49 AM
Bdeg made it that way.

Taking quotes out of context and trying to convince me and everyone else that I said something that I never said.

Yes, I don't appreciate being called an idiot when I've said nothing incorrect. Didn't want to let you get away with it.


What did I insinuate you said that you didn't say? I only quoted your posts.

Maybe you didn't specify Monroe, I already conceded that I misunderstood your wording on that but you did say there weren't any elite pass rushers. The draft is ultimately a crap-shoot, and as I've said I'm willing to bet you cash that there are elite pass rushers in this draft.

SBK
03-18-2009, 12:52 AM
Drafting a LT in the first would be like drafting a P in the 2nd. We already have one that's great, total waste of a pick.

And this bdeg guy is pure genious.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 12:54 AM
Drafting a LT in the first would be like drafting a P in the 2nd. We already have one that's great, total waste of a pick.

And this bdeg guy is pure genious.
Are you being being serious or sarcastic? I have no idea how I'm coming off to you guys.

BTW not fishing for a compliment here, it's just that even with my best arguments I've received more negative feedback than positive from the gang on here. The best ones usually go unanswered, and I never know what to expect.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:02 AM
Are you being being serious or sarcastic? I have no idea how I'm coming off to you guys.

LMAO


Apparently not.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:04 AM
LMAO


Apparently not.

Depends who you ask I guess. Some Dane McClouds and some thinkers(or not?).

Gimme a break and take my bet pussy

$20 and a renig is a year long ban from CP

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:12 AM
Make it 100 if you want, pal

I won't back down.

Put your money where your mouth is

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:40 AM
I'll admit there was a little confusion on what you meant with your post about the OL, but I swear to god if SBK's comment was sarcastic(and judging by the spelling I'm guessing it was) and noone can see through Dane McParrot's bullshit I may give up on actively posting at chiefs planet. Can I get a second opinion?

Dane please don't comment, I'm sure everyone knows what you'd say. you'd love to have me out of your hair no longer disproving your photocopied opinions you can't back up.

Dane's arguments:

1. Players aren't drafted on potential in the first or second round
Do you understand that when you draft a player in the first or second round, you're not drafting on potential, you're drafting for IMMEDIATE IMPACT? Do you get that?

I'll say it again: If you don't draft at least partially on potential, you end up with Tamba Hali. To which you replied "Okay, now I get it.

You're an outright dumb****."


2. There are no impact pass rushers in this draft, all impact pass rushers are rated in the top 5 by mock drafters coming into the draft. The evaluation of these internet wannabes perfectly predicts who succeeds in the NFL. Because most don't have any rated in the top five, there are no great pass rushers in this draft.
Impact PASS RUSHERS, dumbass.

IF there is an IMPACT PASS RUSHER, he's going to be chosen in the Top 5.


Furthermore, THERE ARE NO GAME CHANGING, PASS RUSHING SPECIALISTS IN THIS DRAFT THAT WE KNOW OF.

If there were, they'd unequivocally be rated in the Top 5.

NO DOUBT.

In the last three years, the top five sack-getters have only had a top five(or top ten) draft pick among them once. If Dane's right, wouldn't there be more than 1/15?

To be honest I can't believe I've been forced to argue these points, which I had hoped would seem obviously insensible to most of you.

You can comment on this Dane: is there anything besides those two points you disagree with me on? It really just looks like a lot of deflecting and posturing(trying to make yourself look right by insulting) One more question: are you Orlandochfsgrl?

htismaqe
03-18-2009, 12:22 PM
I'll say it again: If you don't draft at least partially on potential, you end up with Tamba Hali.

You could attribute this quote to Mecca and nobody would be the wiser. He's said stuff like this for years.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 12:24 PM
You could attribute this quote to Mecca and nobody would be the wiser. He's said stuff like this for years.

Doesn't everyone draft on potential? Does anyone think a college player is 100% maxed out in terms of physical and mental development?

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 12:24 PM
Make it 100 if you want, pal

I won't back down.

Put your money where your mouth is

Shut your fucking mouth, douchebag.

Nobody gives a fuck about your "bet".

Least of all, me.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 12:25 PM
I'll admit there was a little confusion on what you meant with your post about the OL, but I swear to god if SBK's comment was sarcastic(and judging by the spelling I'm guessing it was) and noone can see through Dane McParrot's bullshit I may give up on actively posting at chiefs planet. Can I get a second opinion?

That sounds like the best idea you've had yet.

AustinChief
03-18-2009, 12:27 PM
What is the point of the question? Seriously, it's like asking if you'd want to shoot yourself in the right or left nut.

If you're asking where he'd have the most value, it's right tackle, but it wouldn't be his second best position, it's left guard. He's not a mauler, he's a technician.

The point is... I keep seeing people talk about moving him to RT as if it is a foregone conclusion should we draft a OT at #3...

I seriously doubt that would happen which is why I asked why everyone is assuming that...

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 12:28 PM
Dane's arguments:

1. Players aren't drafted on potential in the first or second round

Players drafted in the first and second round are expected to start immediately and produce. I don't know why you can't understand this. It's mind boggling.

Furthermore, we were previously talking about the Top Ten picks (if not Top 5). Guys are expected to start and make an immediate impact, period.

Again, I'll ask you: Please name the last pass rusher to make an immediate impact that was drafted outside of the first round.

I'm waiting.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 12:36 PM
There are no impact pass rushers in this draft, all impact pass rushers are rated in the top 5 by mock drafters coming into the draft. The evaluation of these internet wannabes perfectly predicts who succeeds in the NFL. Because most don't have any rated in the top five, there are no great pass rushers in this draft.

In the last three years, the top five sack-getters have only had a top five(or top ten) draft pick among them once. If Dane's right, wouldn't there be more than 1/15?

You are an absolute fucking moron. What do the words IMMEDIATE IMPACT mean to you?

Just because a guy from the fourth round develops into a great pass rusher doesn't mean he's made an IMMEDIATE IMPACT.

Mario Williams was considered by many (dumbfucks) to be a bust after his first season. WHY? Because he failed to make AN IMMEDIATE IMPACT.

If a defensive lineman is drafted in the Top Five, he's expected to have an IMMEDIATE IMPACT. You're not supposed to wait around for three or four years for THAT GUY to improve. Improvement and development is reserved for day two players, not a Top Five defensive player.

Get it? Comprende? Understand how this works?

Somehow, I doubt it.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 12:38 PM
You can comment on this Dane: is there anything besides those two points you disagree with me on? It really just looks like a lot of deflecting and posturing(trying to make yourself look right by insulting) One more question: are you Orlandochfsgrl?

I don't even know what kind of "point" your trying to make. The only thing I see from you is a lot of name-calling because you're butt-hurt from my comments about your mock draft draft.

I'm sorry I wounded your vagina with my words.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 12:45 PM
Players drafted in the first and second round are expected to start immediately and produce. I don't know why you can't understand this. It's mind boggling.

Furthermore, we were previously talking about the Top Ten picks (if not Top 5). Guys are expected to start and make an immediate impact, period.

Again, I'll ask you: Please name the last pass rusher to make an immediate impact that was drafted outside of the first round.

I'm waiting.

The leading rookie in sacks last year was Detroit's Cliff Avril.

In 2006 Anderson of the Bears had 12 sacks and Dumervil had 8 1/2. Those are definitely immediate impacts.

ChiefsCountry
03-18-2009, 12:52 PM
Players drafted in the first and second round are expected to start immediately and produce.

Expect one position - QB.

ChiefsCountry
03-18-2009, 12:52 PM
The leading rookie in sacks last year was Detroit's Cliff Avril.

In 2006 Anderson of the Bears had 12 sacks and Dumervil had 8 1/2. Those are definitely immediate impacts.

Forgeting Hali's 9.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 12:53 PM
Players drafted in the first and second round are expected to start immediately and produce. I don't know why you can't understand this. It's mind boggling.

Furthermore, we were previously talking about the Top Ten picks (if not Top 5). Guys are expected to start and make an immediate impact, period.

Again, I'll ask you: Please name the last pass rusher to make an immediate impact that was drafted outside of the first round.

I'm waiting.

The leading rookie in sacks last year was Detroit's Cliff Avril.

In 2006 Anderson of the Bears had 12 sacks and Dumervil had 8 1/2. Those are definitely immediate impacts.

Lamarr Woodley had 11.5, plus 6 in the postseason.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 12:55 PM
Expect one position - QB.

No player is a sure thing. Players are drafted on potential all the time.


If you don't draft on potential you end up with Tamba Hali.

If you don't think nearly every QB taken is a gamble on potential, you haven't been paying attention.


Thanks, finally I'm getting some support around here.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 12:56 PM
I don't even know what kind of "point" your trying to make. The only thing I see from you is a lot of name-calling because you're butt-hurt from my comments about your mock draft draft.

I'm sorry I wounded your vagina with my words.

You started the name calling and I didn't back down. I called you out on it, go cry about it

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:00 PM
Doesn't everyone draft on potential? Does anyone think a college player is 100% maxed out in terms of physical and mental development?

Somebody doesLMAO

and just when it gets good he always needs to take a break, that aggravates me, lets get it over with:banghead:

It's just strange that his light is green after I post, and then a minute after I make a decent point it goes out. I'm assuming he's interested enough in this to check before leaving. I wouldn't call him out for just once, but I've noticed a strange pattern...

philfree
03-18-2009, 01:00 PM
Players drafted in the first and second round are expected to start immediately and produce. I don't know why you can't understand this. It's mind boggling.

Furthermore, we were previously talking about the Top Ten picks (if not Top 5). Guys are expected to start and make an immediate impact, period.

Again, I'll ask you: Please name the last pass rusher to make an immediate impact that was drafted outside of the first round.

I'm waiting.

What's expected to happen and what does happen are usually two different things. Out of all the top ten draft picks how many actually immediately produce at a high level?


PhilFree:arrow:

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:10 PM
Thanks, finally I'm getting some support around here.

You're not getting any support: The conversation between me and you is about defensive players.

PERIOD.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:11 PM
The leading rookie in sacks last year was Detroit's Cliff Avril.

In 2006 Anderson of the Bears had 12 sacks and Dumervil had 8 1/2. Those are definitely immediate impacts.

Yes.

And in hindsight, I'd say that had anyone known that they'd have that type of production, they'd have been drafted much higher.

Say, in the first round?

Please don't tell me that you're trying to convince us (me) that the Broncos expected a fourth round draft choice to make an immediate impact and have nearly a double-digit rookie season.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:13 PM
Forgeting Hali's 9.

Hali was a first rounder, thus not eligible for this conversation.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:15 PM
Lamarr Woodley had 11.5, plus 6 in the postseason.

Woodley was in his second year when he compiled those numbers, not his first.

He had only 4 sacks in 2007 and was considered a disappointment.

Furthermore, he was a second round draft pick, not a "second day" draft pick.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:17 PM
Your whole point is that we KNOW there aren't any great pass rushers in the draft(according to your posts immediate or future) not because of where they were selected in the draft, but where they are PROJECTED to go by mock drafters.

You're "moving the goalposts"

Do I need to quote your posts again?

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:17 PM
In 2006 Anderson of the Bears had 12 sacks

At a time when Alex Brown on the other side was enjoying his finest season (and it was a Super Bowl defense for the Bears).

Since then:

2007: 5 sacks
2008: 1 sacks

This is similar to the type of numbers that would be enjoyed by Robert Mathis if it weren't for Dwight Freeney on the opposite end.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:19 PM
Your whole point is that we KNOW there aren't any great pass rushers in the draft(according to your posts immediate or future) because. not on where they were selected in the draft, but where they are PROJECTED to go by mock drafters.

You're "moving the goalposts"

Bullshit.

I'll give you a break because you're new here but you can find countless posts where I've stated that there are no impact, game changing defensive players that we know of. Countless.

Otherwise, they'd be rated in the top ten. They ALWAYS are.

I guess you think that in hindsight, Tom Brady would still be a 6th round pick? Or Jared Allen a 4th?

Do you not GET THIS?

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 01:20 PM
At a time when Alex Brown on the other side was enjoying his finest season (and it was a Super Bowl defense for the Bears).

Since then:

2007: 5 sacks
2008: 1 sacks

This is similar to the type of numbers that would be enjoyed by Robert Mathis if it weren't for Dwight Freeney on the opposite end.

Don't change the criteria because you were proven wrong.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:21 PM
Just because you changed it after I called you out on it doesn't mean you didn't say this

Impact PASS RUSHERS, dumbass.

IF there is an IMPACT PASS RUSHER, he's going to be chosen in the Top 5.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:21 PM
Don't change the criteria because you were proven wrong.

WTF?

Yeah, Anderson had ONE great season.

Has he been consistent? No.

Could he have had ONE great season due to the talent on the rest of the defense?

Yes.

JFC. I'm surrounded by morons.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:22 PM
Just because you changed it after I called you out on it doesn't mean you didn't say this

Oh bull fucking shit. You didn't "call me" on anything. I've been saying it in this forum since January. Look it up.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:23 PM
Bullshit.

I'll give you a break because you're new here but you can find countless posts where I've stated that there are no impact, game changing defensive players that we know of. Countless.

Otherwise, they'd be rated in the top ten. They ALWAYS are.

I guess you think that in hindsight, Tom Brady would still be a 6th round pick? Or Jared Allen a 4th?

Do you not GET THIS?

Half of my point is that projections aren't perfect and that you can find great players outside of the top 5. Thanks for reinforcing it.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:24 PM
Somebody doesLMAO

and just when it gets good he always needs to take a break, that aggravates me, lets get it over with:banghead:

It's just strange that his light is green after I post, and then a minute after I make a decent point it goes out. I'm assuming he's interested enough in this to check before leaving. I wouldn't call him out for just once, but I've noticed a strange pattern...

You really need to get over yourself.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:25 PM
You really need to get over yourself.

I think you're the one who needs to reevaluate your opinions and concede the point.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:26 PM
Half of my point is that projections aren't perfect and that you can find great players outside of the top 5. Thanks for reinforcing it.

This is fucking stupid. You're changing your "argument" with each and every post.

This started out because I disagreed with taking a defensive player with the #23 pick, who in my opinion would be a reach, especially given the fact that guys like Mack & Unger are as close to you get to a sure thing, to you arguing that you can find pass rusher on Day 2 of the NFL draft and somehow confusing everything.

You really need a lesson in logical thought and reading comprehension because you're just all over the place.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:28 PM
I think you're the one who needs to reevaluate your opinions and concede the point.

Concede what point? That you're a fucking moron incapable of linear thought?

Guilty until proven otherwise.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:28 PM
We already finished that discussion, I was drunk last night and already admitted I misunderstood your post. let's get back to this one

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:30 PM
Concede what point? That you're a ****ing moron incapable of linear thought?

Guilty until proven otherwise.

That you can find, as you said, "impact pass rushers" outside of the top 5 picks. And not all IPR's were rated in the top 5 coming out

Am I really having to disprove that ridiculous statement? What is this, a big joke?

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:32 PM
That you can find as you said, "impact pass rushers" outside of the top 5 picks. And not all IPR's were rated in the top 5 coming out

I NEVER stated that you couldn't FIND an impact pass rusher outside of the Top Ten.

I said that IF there was an impact pass rusher in the draft THAT WE KNOW OF, he'd be rated in the Top Ten. Impact pass rushers aren't rated as 4th round picks.

PERIOD.

htismaqe
03-18-2009, 01:32 PM
Does anyone think a college player is 100% maxed out in terms of physical and mental development?

Mecca would argue Tamba Hali was.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:34 PM
I NEVER stated that you couldn't FIND an impact pass rusher outside of the Top Ten.

I said that IF there was an impact pass rusher in the draft THAT WE KNOW OF, he'd be rated in the Top Ten. Impact pass rushers aren't rated as 4th round picks.

PERIOD.

"So you're advocating that the Chiefs pass on what could be the best offensive lineman draft in maybe decades to draft an "impact pass rusher" that doesn't exist in the 2009 draft?"

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:36 PM
Let's touch of the potential argument too, care to explain this?

"Then you don't understand the definition of impact. If you're selecting a guy in the first or second round, he'd better have an immediate impact or you've just ****ed yourself."

So Lamarr Woodley ****ed the steelers?
]

He had only 4 sacks in 2007 and was considered a disappointment.

Furthermore, he was a second round draft pick, not a "second day" draft pick.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:36 PM
"So you're advocating that the Chiefs pass on what could be the best offensive lineman draft in maybe decades to draft an "impact pass rusher" that doesn't exist in the 2009 draft?"

Exactly.

At the 23 spot, you were advocating taking a player that isn't considered to be an impact pass rusher over a player who's considered to be the closest thing to a sure thing at center.

That is a "chance" that I'm not willing to take.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:38 PM
Let's touch of the potential argument too, care to explain this?

"Then you don't understand the definition of impact. If you're selecting a guy in the first or second round, he'd better have an immediate impact or you've just ****ed yourself."

So Lamarr Woodley ****ed the steelers?

He had four sacks his first year and was a late 2nd rounder. He was considered to be a major disappointment his first year and to say otherwise is either uninformed or stupid.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:38 PM
Because he has the potential to be better than Jared Allen. And Mack, while a great center, wouldn't have that same impact in the end.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:38 PM
He had four sacks his first year and was a late 2nd rounder. He was considered to be a major disappointment his first year and to say otherwise is either uninformed or stupid.

I'm not calling that wrong. I'm calling this wrong:
"Then you don't understand the definition of impact. If you're selecting a guy in the first or second round, he'd better have an immediate impact or you've just ****ed yourself."

Did Woodley's selection fuck the steelers, or did it work out?

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:39 PM
Mecca would argue Tamba Hali was.

I did, too.

Hali was a typical Peterson "crony" pick. Coached by LJ's dad. And since the Chiefs were always "one player away", Hali was the "safe" pick.

He was serviceable before departure of Allen. Now, who knows?

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:41 PM
I'm not calling that wrong. I'm calling this wrong:
"Then you don't understand the definition of impact. If you're selecting a guy in the first or second round, he'd better have an immediate impact or you've just ****ed yourself."

Yep. And I stand by that.

Given your example, Woodley progressed in his second season. But he was considered a "bust" in his first season by the Steeler organization and their fans. He had no significant impact.

Just imagine how poor the Chiefs defense would have been last year without Brandon Flowers' excellent rookie season? What if he virtually "disappeared" like Woodley?

Wouldn't we ALL be saying he was a wasted pick that fucked the Chiefs?

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:43 PM
Totally irrelevant and beside the point. Woodley became a good player. You can find good players outside of the first round. You claim there are no great pass rushers anywhere in the draft, I'm willing to bet you're wrong.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:44 PM
Totally irrelevant and beside the point. Woodley became a good player. You can find good players outside of the first round. You claim there are no great pass rushers anywhere in the draft, I'm willing to bet you're wrong.

JFC.

You are really an idiot. I mean, really.

Were you Voyager?

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:46 PM
Hey if you can't discount anything I've said, just go back to that again. Fine

doomy3
03-18-2009, 01:52 PM
So if impact pass rushers are only chosen in the top five how come more than half of the best pass rushers were selected in the third round or later?


Half? HALF? You REALLY need to get your facts straight:

1. DeMarcus Ware (First round)
2. Joey Porter (Third Round)
3. John Abraham (First Round)
4. James Harrison (UDFA)
5. Jared Allen (Fourth Round)
6. Julius Peppers (First Round)
7. Justin Tuck (Fourth Round)
8. Mario Williams (First Round)
9. Robert Mathis (Fifth Round)
10. Lamar Woodley (Second Round)
11. Dwight Freeney (First Round)
12. Darren Howard (First Round)
13. Aaron Kampman (Fifth Round)
14. Trent Cole (Fifth Round)
15. Albert Haynesworth (First Round)

Out of the Top 15 Pass rushers in 2008, 46.67% were drafted in the FIRST ROUND. 6.67% were drafted in the second and third. Two were chosen in the 4th (13%) three in the 5th, none in the 6th or 7th and one undrafted free agent (who was cut multiple times).

So, as with quarterbacks, you're far more likely to find star pass rusher in the first round than you are in any other round.

By far.


Not to get involved in this argument, because I don't give a shit, but this is one weird way to try to prove a point, and to act like he was so out of line for saying half of the best pass rushers were drafted in the third round or later. By your very own postings, 7 out of 15 were drafted in the third round or later.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 01:55 PM
Not to get involved in this argument, because I don't give a shit, but this is one weird way to try to prove a point, and to act like he was so out of line for saying half of the best pass rushers were drafted in the third round or later. By your very own postings, 7 out of 15 were drafted in the third round or later.

It's even funnier because when I first made the point I only included the top 10. He had to change the parameters to suit his argument. Even though it still proves mine.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 01:58 PM
Hey if you can't discount anything I've said, just go back to that again. Fine

What you've said? You've said a lot of shit. That "half the sack leaders were found" beyond the third round? WTF?

DUDE, Jared Allen and Aaron Kampman being drafted in the 4th round doesn't mean that the second day is littered with impact defensive players.

Don't you get that?

Earlier, I provided statistics and figures about the Top 15 Pass Rushers in 2008. Over 53% were first round choices. None were selected in the 6th or 7th round. A few were found in the fourth and so on.

What does that tell you?

Well, out of the thousands of players that are drafted over the course of a decade, the scouts did a helluva job of identifying the impact pass rushers.

Did a few guys slip through? Yes. But overall and by a WIDE margin, the scouts were correct.

Additionally, this little "exercise" of yours has not taken into account the dozens and dozens of defensive lineman and linebackers over this same time period that haven't amounted to squat.

So in essence, this whole "argument" of yours is absolutely flawed.

And in no way, shape or form would I chose a guy who has not shown that he can be an impact, game-changing defensive player with the #23 pick over a player like Mack or Unger.

No fucking way.

doomy3
03-18-2009, 02:00 PM
What you've said? You've said a lot of shit. That "half the sack leaders were found" beyond the third round? WTF?

DUDE, Jared Allen and Aaron Kampman being drafted in the 4th round doesn't mean that the second day is littered with impact defensive players.

Don't you get that?

Earlier, I provided statistics and figures about the Top 15 Pass Rushers in 2008. Over 53% were first round choices. None were selected in the 6th or 7th round. A few were found in the fourth and so on.

What does that tell you?

Well, out of the thousands of players that are drafted over the course of a decade, the scouts did a helluva job of identifying the impact pass rushers.

Did a few guys slip through? Yes. But overall and by a WIDE margin, the scouts were correct.

Additionally, this little "exercise" of yours has not taken into account the dozens and dozens of defensive lineman and linebackers over this same time period that haven't amounted to squat.

So in essence, this whole "argument" of yours is absolutely flawed.

And in no way, shape or form would I chose a guy who has not shown that he can be an impact, game-changing defensive player with the #23 pick over a player like Mack or Unger.

No ****ing way.

How high would you take Mack or Unger?

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:00 PM
Not to get involved in this argument, because I don't give a shit, but this is one weird way to try to prove a point, and to act like he was so out of line for saying half of the best pass rushers were drafted in the third round or later. By your very own postings, 7 out of 15 were drafted in the third round or later.

And how many of those second day players had an immediate impact (which is what this "discussion" is about)?

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:02 PM
How high would you take Mack or Unger?

Well, going back to the very beginning of this "conversation" which started in the mock draft thread, I stated that I'd take Mack or Unger (in that scenario) at #23 over one of the defensive players.

Personally, I'd have no problem taking either with the #20 selection at highest. I think either guy is going to be a multiple Pro Bowler and barring injury, a solid player for at least a decade.

I cannot say the same thing about a defensive player at the position in the 2009 draft.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:02 PM
I never said it wasn't harder to find them later on. I said they're out there. You said they aren't.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:02 PM
And how many of those second day players had an immediate impact (which is what this "discussion" is about)?

NO, stop moving the goalposts. Just because you changed your argument later on doesn't mean you didn't say there aren't any impact pass rushers ANYWHERE in the draft.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:03 PM
I never said it wasn't harder to find them later on. I said they're out there. You said they aren't.

Bullshit.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

doomy3
03-18-2009, 02:04 PM
Well, going back to the very beginning of this "conversation" which started in the mock draft thread, I stated that I'd take Mack or Unger (in that scenario) at #23 over one of the defensive players.

Personally, I'd have no problem taking either with the #20 selection at highest. I think either guy is going to be a multiple Pro Bowler and barring injury, a solid player for at least a decade.

I cannot say the same thing about a defensive player at the position in the 2009 draft.

OK, so number 20 for one of these guards. My question is then, do you feel like Mack or Unger will be better at their position than Monroe would be at LT? Also, do you think they will be better guards than Albert would be at guard?

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:05 PM
Bullshit.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.
short memory?
"So you're advocating that the Chiefs pass on what could be the best offensive lineman draft in maybe decades to draft an "impact pass rusher" that doesn't exist in the 2009 draft?"

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 02:05 PM
WTF?

Yeah, Anderson had ONE great season.

Has he been consistent? No.

Could he have had ONE great season due to the talent on the rest of the defense?

Yes.

JFC. I'm surrounded by morons.

You asked people to name defensive ends drafted outside of the first round who made an impact their rookie season. That's what you got.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:06 PM
NO, stop moving the goalposts. Just because you changed your argument later on doesn't mean you didn't say there aren't any impact pass rushers ANYWHERE in the draft.

That we know of? No. There aren't.

Otherwise, they'd be rated in the Top Ten.

What don't you get?

I'll say it again: Where's the Mario Williams? Julius Peppers? Javon Kearse? Bruce Smith? Neil Smith? Derrick Thomas?

Oh, there isn't one.

These faux scouts have scouted all of the available players for the 2009 NFL Draft and have determined, via their rankings, that there are no immediate impact pass rushers in the 2009 draft.

Otherwise, they'd be ranked in the Top Ten (if not Top Five).

Get it?

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:06 PM
You asked people to name defensive ends drafted outside of the first round who made an impact their rookie season. That's what you got.

Thanks.

And I followed it up by stating that Anderson has disappeared since.

5 sacks.

1 sack.

Both are correct.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:07 PM
That we know of? No. There aren't.

Otherwise, they'd be rated in the Top Ten.

What don't you get?

I'll say it again: Where's the Mario Williams? Julius Peppers? Javon Kearse? Bruce Smith? Neil Smith? Derrick Thomas?

Oh, there isn't one.

These faux scouts have scouted all of the available players for the 2009 NFL Draft and have determined, via their rankings, that there are no immediate impact pass rushers in the 2009 draft.

Otherwise, they'd be ranked in the Top Ten (if not Top Five).

Get it?

faux scouts. exactly. I read an interview with a scout, said he watched 80 hours of film a week year round and evaluated maybe 120 prospects a year. He laughed at those guys.

It's ridiculous to discount these players as not impact players when you really have no idea. You're the one that needs to get over yourself.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:08 PM
short memory?

And thanks for quoting me in the draft thread, which is totally unrelated.

You really like taking shit out of context.

And again, why don't you go ahead and tell us WHO are the impact pass rushers in the 2009 draft.

Because I can list the impact offensive lineman for days.

LIST 'Em and shut the fuck up!

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:09 PM
It's ridiculous to discount these players as not impact players when you really have no idea. You're the one that needs to get over yourself.

And it's ridiculous to spend a high draft choice on a guy who hasn't proven himself to be worthy of a high selection.

If he had proven himself in college to be worthy (Williams, Kearse, Peppers, Smith, etc.), he'd be ranked as such.

See how this works?

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:10 PM
And thanks for quoting me in the draft thread, which is totally unrelated.

You really like taking shit out of context.

And again, why don't you go ahead and tell us WHO are the impact pass rushers in the 2009 draft.

Because I can list the impact offensive lineman for days.

LIST 'Em and shut the **** up!

Have you read anything I've written?

I'll lay money down that Everette Brown wins DROY vs your pick(anyone but Curry whose impact will be overrated IMO)

Connor Barwin will be great.

And it's not unrelated, its the origin of the argument.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:12 PM
Have you read anything I've written?

I'll lay money down that Everette Brown wins DROY vs your pick(anyone but Curry who I think his impact will be overrated)

Connor Barwin will be great.

Big fucking deal. You're really going out on a limb by stating that a guy who's been listed as a first round selection in nearly every projection (and the top DE) is going to be DROY.

Wow. Such insight!

Claythan's a virgin!

Water is wet!

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:13 PM
I also offered you a bet that one player out of this draft would be in the top ten in sacks within the next two years. If there are no impact pass rushers, why don't you want my money?

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 02:13 PM
That we know of? No. There aren't.

Otherwise, they'd be rated in the Top Ten.

What don't you get?

I'll say it again: Where's the Mario Williams? Julius Peppers? Javon Kearse? Bruce Smith? Neil Smith? Derrick Thomas?

Oh, there isn't one.

These faux scouts have scouted all of the available players for the 2009 NFL Draft and have determined, via their rankings, that there are no immediate impact pass rushers in the 2009 draft.

Otherwise, they'd be ranked in the Top Ten (if not Top Five).

Get it?

Orakpo is getting top 10, and at times top 5 ratings by the experts. Not that I necessarily agree, but if we use your definition, then Orakpo would be this years pass rush specialist worthy of the 3rd pick.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:13 PM
Big ****ing deal. You're really going out on a limb by stating that a guy who's been listed as a first round selection in nearly every projection (and the top DE) is going to be DROY.

Wow. Such insight!

Claythan's a virgin!

Water is wet!
Gimme a break, not everyone thinks as highly of Brown as I do.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:16 PM
Orakpo is getting top 10, and at times top 5 ratings by the experts. Not that I necessarily agree, but if we use your definition, then Orakpo would be this years pass rush specialist worthy of the 3rd pick.

I haven't read anywhere that Orapko is the next Kearse, Peppers, etc.

Have you?

This draft is WEAK defensively.

And how is that my definition? I think Orapko's going to be marginal at best in the NFL and have stated that repeatedly.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:16 PM
Gimme a break, not everyone thinks as highly of Brown as I do.

So you're telling me that he's not a projected first rounder?

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:17 PM
I haven't read anywhere that Orapko is the next Kearse, Peppers, etc.

Have you?

This draft is WEAK defensively.

And how is that my definition? I think Orapko's going to be marginal at best in the NFL and have stated that repeatedly.
Can you show me one example where you gave your opinion on a player before a general consensus was formed, or one of your buddies already made the same point?

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by bdeg View Post
Gimme a break, not everyone thinks as highly of Brown as I do.So you're telling me that he's not a projected first rounder?

Is every first rounder expected to win DROY? That's what I think of him. I'd say that's above the average opinion.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:19 PM
Can you show me one example where you gave your opinion on a player before a general consensus was formed, or one of your buddies already made the same point?

If you're so interested in my opinion, use the Search function

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 02:20 PM
I haven't read anywhere that Orapko is the next Kearse, Peppers, etc.

Have you?

This draft is WEAK defensively.

And how is that my definition? I think Orapko's going to be marginal at best in the NFL and have stated that repeatedly.

Do you pay attention to, or understand, what you write? You said there are no impact pass rushers because otherwise they'd be rated in the top 10. That was your criteria.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:21 PM
Like I want to read any more of your posts than I have to(without resolving this)

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by bdeg View Post
Gimme a break, not everyone thinks as highly of Brown as I do.

Is every first rounder expected to win DROY? That's what I think of him. I'd say that's above the average opinion.

This is an extremely weak draft class for defensive players. Stating that a consensus top ten defensive player is going to win the DROY isn't exactly going out on a limb.

doomy3
03-18-2009, 02:26 PM
Can you show me one example where you gave your opinion on a player before a general consensus was formed, or one of your buddies already made the same point?

I would say his opinion that we should trade back to draft a guard or center in the first round is a pretty rare opinion around here. I haven't seen a lot of people saying that.

Dane, can you answer my question about if you think Mack or Unger will be better guards than what Albert could be. Also, if you think they will be better at the guard position than Monroe will be at LT.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:27 PM
I hate posting 5 great arguments and having you dispute the most pointless one. Go back and read, answer those.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:27 PM
Do you pay attention to, or understand, what you write? You said there are no impact pass rushers because otherwise they'd be rated in the top 10. That was your criteria.

And I think Orapko's going to be the typical Texas player in the NFL and suck.

If he goes in the top ten, he's a reach.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:27 PM
I would say his opinion that we should trade back to draft a guard in the first round is a pretty rare opinion around here. I haven't seen a lot of people saying that.

Dane, can you answer my question about if you think Mack or Unger will be better guards than what Albert could be. Also, if you think they will be better at the guard position than Monroe will be at LT.

He didn't say we should trade back. Tribal did, Dane said if we did we shouldn't take a pass rusher because there aren't any great ones.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:29 PM
I would say his opinion that we should trade back to draft a guard or center in the first round is a pretty rare opinion around here. I haven't seen a lot of people saying that.

Dane, can you answer my question about if you think Mack or Unger will be better guards than what Albert could be. Also, if you think they will be better at the guard position than Monroe will be at LT.

Mack and Unger would be centers, not guards. Drafting a right guard with the #23 overall pick would be a bit of a stretch.

Albert's not a guard. He's a left tackle that plays well in space. Monroe will be a good left tackle but he's a different type of player than Albert.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:30 PM
He didn't say we should trade back. Tribal did, Dane said if we did we shouldn't take a pass rusher because there aren't any great ones.

That's absolutely correct.

I'd take a sure-thing center like Mack or Unger any day of the week over any defensive player in this draft at #23.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:30 PM
And I think Orapko's going to be the typical Texas player in the NFL and suck.

If he goes in the top ten, he's a reach.

Mack and Unger would be centers, not guards. Drafting a right guard with the #23 overall pick would be a bit of a stretch.

Albert's not a guard. He's a left tackle that plays well in space. Monroe will be a good left tackle but he's a different type of player than Albert.
Dane going back to what he does best. Repeating the consensus after I or others establish it.

Why don't you address the multiple holes in your argument? I asked a lot of questions you skipped.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:32 PM
Dane going back to what he does best. Repeating the consensus after I or others establish it.

Excuse me, Fuckdoll?

The only original thought you've had in this entire thread is your proclamation that Brown will be rookie of the year.

The rest of your posts have been littered with bad grammar and nonsense.

You're a real fucking moron. I guess I just can't say it enough.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:34 PM
You can't admit when you're wrong.

Players never drafted on potential!ROFL

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:35 PM
Excuse me, ****doll?

The only original thought you've had in this entire thread is your proclamation that Brown will be rookie of the year.

The rest of your posts have been littered with bad grammar and nonsense.

You're a real ****ing moron. I guess I just can't say it enough.

I'm talking about more than this thread. I have a lot of original thoughts and voice them

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:35 PM
You can't admit when you're wrong.

Players never drafted on potential !ROFL

You're a fucking moron.

And judging by your grammar, you're somewhere between a 5th and 6th grade student.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-18-2009, 02:36 PM
At it's heart, this boils down to a question of positional value.

Dane's argument is that if we knew what the defensive players like Allen and Kampman would do, they would go in the top 5-10 every year. If we knew that guys like Mack and Unger were going to make 5 pro bowls a pop, they still don't crack the top 10, because their positions just aren't as important.

This is virtually identical to the argument that was had about 1st round QBs.

Your best bet to find a franchise QB is in the first round, just like your best bet to find an impact rusher is in the first round. Is it possible to find impact rushers past the first? Of course. Do the odds drop off precipitously? Yes, they do.

doomy3
03-18-2009, 02:36 PM
Mack and Unger would be centers, not guards. Drafting a right guard with the #23 overall pick would be a bit of a stretch.

Albert's not a guard. He's a left tackle that plays well in space. Monroe will be a good left tackle but he's a different type of player than Albert.

So, it's OK to take a center at #20? I just don't understand why you expect your opinion on this to be universally accepted when anyone who would be OK with taking Monroe, assuming BPA, if we can't trade down is a fucktard. I mean the positional value between center and RT or Guard can't be that great right? And essentially we would be using the 15th pick of last year's draft to fill that position, which isn't too much of a reach from #20, which is where you would take a center. And, I think Albert has proven he can play guard by doing so at a very high level at Virginia.

By the way, I am in no way saying we should draft Monroe at #3, but I don't think it is as completely stupid of an idea as what you are making it out to be.

I guess the question is in your and BDeg's argument, is it more important for a football team to have a stud center and crap at OLB in a 3-4, or to have a pretty good prospect in Orakpo or Brown and draft a position with a lower value like center later in the draft. Like you've pointed out, centers can easily be found in later rounds.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:37 PM
At it's heart, this boils down to a question of positional value.

Dane's argument is that if we knew what the defensive players like Allen and Kampman would do, they would go in the top 5-10 every year. If we knew that guys like Mack and Unger were going to make 5 pro bowls a pop, they still don't crack the top 10, because their positions just aren't as important.

This is virtually identical to the argument that was had about 1st round QBs.

Your best bet to find a franchise QB is in the first round, just like your best bet to find an impact rusher is in the first round. Is it possible to find impact rushers past the first? Of course. Do the odds drop off precipitously? Yes, they do.
It's more an argument of semantics. I'm not disputing that, you know I want to take a pass rusher in the first.

The point is that regardless of what Dane thinks impact rushers are out there and will be selected outside of the top 5.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:37 PM
You're a ****ing moron.

And judging by your grammar , you're somewhere between a 5th and 6th grade student.

Big difference between bad grammar and
A. not giving a shit, and
B. typos

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 02:42 PM
At it's heart, this boils down to a question of positional value.

Dane's argument is that if we knew what the defensive players like Allen and Kampman would do, they would go in the top 5-10 every year. If we knew that guys like Mack and Unger were going to make 5 pro bowls a pop, they still don't crack the top 10, because their positions just aren't as important.

This is virtually identical to the argument that was had about 1st round QBs.

Your best bet to find a franchise QB is in the first round, just like your best bet to find an impact rusher is in the first round. Is it possible to find impact rushers past the first? Of course. Do the odds drop off precipitously? Yes, they do.

Dane's had a lot of arguments, none of which are as cogent as the one you set forth. Dane has argued their are no impact pass rushers in this years draft. There are no impact draft rushers in this years draft, because if there were they would be rated in the top 10. There are no impact pass rushers taken outside of the first round, etc.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:42 PM
So, it's OK to take a center at #20? I just don't understand why you expect your opinion on this to be universally accepted when anyone who would be OK with taking Monroe, assuming BPA, if we can't trade down is a fucktard. I mean the positional value between center and RT or Guard can't be that great right? And essentially we would be using the 15th pick of last year's draft to fill that position, which isn't too much of a reach from #20, which is where you would take a center. And, I think Albert has proven he can play guard by doing so at a very high level at Virginia.

Not just "a center". Guys that could anchor the line for more than a decade. I'm not talking about Wood or Caldwell at #23, I specifically stated Mack or Unger. And that's based on the defensive players in THIS draft.

As to Albert, you're missing the point. Albert is going to be a good, if not great left tackle. He's equally as good as Monroe if not better. Why have $60 million plus wrapped up in 2 left tackles, especially if you've got a good one on the roster?

By the way, I am in no way saying we should draft Monroe at #3, but I don't think it is as completely stupid of an idea as what you are making it out to be.

It's completely stupid because the Chiefs have a fine left tackle in Albert. If they didn't, I'd be all for drafting Monroe.

I guess the question is in your and BDeg's argument, is it more important for a football team to have a stud center and crap at OLB in a 3-4, or to have a pretty good prospect in Orakpo or Brown and draft a position with a lower value like center later in the draft. Like you've pointed out, centers can easily be found in later rounds.

No, the "argument" started when I stated that at #23, I'd take Mack or Unger before any of the defensive players because Mack and Unger are the closest thing to a "sure thing" in this year's draft at that draft spot.

The defensive players are not a sure thing at that spot and the Chiefs could use a stud center.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:43 PM
Dane's had a lot of arguments, none of which are as cogent as the one you set forth. Dane has argued their are no impact pass rushers in this years draft. There are no impact draft rushers in this years draft, because if there were they would be rated in the top 10. There are no impact pass rushers taken outside of the first round, etc.

What I've stated time and again is that there are no impact pass rushers that we know of. No sure things. No Mario Williams, Javon Kearse, Julius Peppers, etc. and I've stated as such several times.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 02:45 PM
I guess the question is in your and BDeg's argument, is it more important for a football team to have a stud center and crap at OLB in a 3-4, or to have a pretty good prospect in Orakpo or Brown and draft a position with a lower value like center later in the draft. Like you've pointed out, centers can easily be found in later rounds.

If it is so easy to find quality centers, guards and right tackles in rounds 3-7 then every team in the NFL would have a solid OL.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:46 PM
What I've stated time and again is that there are no impact pass rushers that we know of. No sure things. No Mario Williams, Javon Kearse, Julius Peppers, etc. and I've stated as such several times.

After I called you out on your original statement, you began qualifying it with "that we know of."

That doesn't change what you said. And seeing as how you've conceded nothing, I can only assume you still believe there are no impact pass rushers anywhere in this draft. None of them will ever be great according to your original words.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:46 PM
If it is so easy to find quality centers, guards and right tackles in rounds 3-7 then every team in the NFL would have a solid OL.

This year is exceptional in regards to offensive lineman.

And those teams that draft well DO have solid offensive lines.

Are you new?

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:47 PM
After I called you out on your original statement, you began qualifying it with "that we know of."

That doesn't change what you already said.

Go fuck yourself.

Search the archives. I've been saying this since January. It's nothing new.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:49 PM
pathetic

So many points just ignored.

How can someone with 13k posts on here not realize that every year potential is one of, if not the biggest factor in a player's value to most NFL teams.

Even in the first, and especially in the second. Regardless of your "expert opinion"

doomy3
03-18-2009, 02:49 PM
Not just "a center". Guys that could anchor the line for more than a decade. I'm not talking about Wood or Caldwell at #23, I specifically stated Mack or Unger. And that's based on the defensive players in THIS draft.

As to Albert, you're missing the point. Albert is going to be a good, if not great left tackle. He's equally as good as Monroe if not better. Why have $60 million plus wrapped up in 2 left tackles, especially if you've got a good one on the roster?



It's completely stupid because the Chiefs have a fine left tackle in Albert. If they didn't, I'd be all for drafting Monroe.



No, the "argument" started when I stated that at #23, I'd take Mack or Unger before any of the defensive players because Mack and Unger are the closest thing to a "sure thing" in this year's draft at that draft spot.

The defensive players are not a sure thing at that spot and the Chiefs could use a stud center.


So, it's your belief that a guy like Monroe, along with Albert, and a center later in the draft like Wood couldn't "anchor" the line for years? Seems like this year their is elite talent at the top of the draft at tackle, and a ton of depth at center. So, why isn't it plausible to play Monroe at LT, Abert at RT/G and grab a guy like Wood or Caldwell later. Seems to me that could be where the best value is if we are talking about taking an OL anywhere in the first round and an OL later in the draft.

And yes, I know Albert is good as a LT, so there's no reason to call me any names or anything, I just don't see why we can't move him if he is versatile enough to play another position. And the money argument doesn't really work because Albert is paid as the #15 pick, not a top 5 pick like Monroe would be. And Monroe is about as sure of a thing as you can have for a LT prospect. Definitely every bit as sure as Mack or Unger are at Center.

doomy3
03-18-2009, 02:50 PM
This year is exceptional in regards to offensive lineman.

And those teams that draft well DO have solid offensive lines.

Are you new?

That's why we probably shouldn't draft a center in the first round, huh? Because this year, more than others, there will be high end quality at that position later in the draft.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:52 PM
So, it's your belief that a guy like Monroe, along with Albert, and a center later in the draft like Wood couldn't "anchor" the line for years? Seems like this year their is elite talent at the top of the draft at tackle, and a ton of depth at center. So, why isn't it plausible to play Monroe at LT, Abert at RT/G and grab a guy like Wood or Caldwell later. Seems to me that could be where the best value is if we are talking about taking an OL anywhere in the first round and an OL later in the draft.

And yes, I know Albert is good as a LT, so there's no reason to call me any names or anything, I just don't see why we can't move him if he is versatile enough to play another position. And the money argument doesn't really work because Albert is paid as the #15 pick, not a top 5 pick like Monroe would be. And Monroe is about as sure of a thing as you can have for a LT prospect. Definitely every bit as sure as Mack or Unger are at Center.

Would Monroe, Albert & Wood anchor a great line?

Absolutely.

The problem is that the value isn't there for the Chiefs. They've GOT a good left tackle and if you drafted Monroe, you've got TWO left tackles and a shit ton of cap room tied up in them.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:54 PM
That's why we probably shouldn't draft a center in the first round, huh? Because this year, more than others, there will be high end quality at that position later in the draft.

First off, I didn't say "we". In a different thread, Tribal had a trade back to #23. I said I'd chose Mack or Unger at #23 because there's better value than choosing one of the defensive players.

This isn't a one year fix. The Chiefs defensive is going suck this year, regardless of who they draft. And it's stupid to draft for need when the value isn't there.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:55 PM
pathetic

So many points just ignored.

How can someone with 13k posts on here not realize that every year potential is one of, if not the biggest factor in a player's value to most NFL teams.

Even in the first, and especially in the second. Regardless of your "expert opinion"

Potential is what get a coach fired.

The Chiefs need football players, not potential football players.

Especially in the first two rounds.

bdeg
03-18-2009, 02:55 PM
Potential is what get a coach fired.

The Chiefs need football players, not potential football players.

Especially in the first two rounds.

So you draft Tamba Hali(field production), I'll draft Connor Barwin(all potential), let's see who's ahead in 5 years.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 02:56 PM
This year is exceptional in regards to offensive lineman.

And those teams that draft well DO have solid offensive lines.

Are you new?

You're funny. If teams that draft well have solid offensive lines then why did I read about how bad the Steelers line was all year? A lot of good "draft" teams finished poorly in sacks allowed.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:57 PM
You're funny. If teams that draft well have solid offensive lines then why did I read about how bad the Steelers line was all year? A lot of good "draft" teams finished poorly in sacks allowed.

The Steelers line does suck.

The Steelers draft defensive players well.

Offensive lineman, not so much.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 02:59 PM
So you draft Tamba Hali(field production), I'll draft Connor Barwin(all potential), let's see who's ahead in 5 years.

I thought Hali was a bad pick in 2005 and I think he's a bad pick in 2009. He was chosen because of Carl's relationship with LJ's father and because he was "NFL Ready".

He was maxed out in college and was a poor draft decision.

Much like nearly every draft decision made by Carl Peterson during his 20 year reign of terror.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 03:01 PM
Potential is what get a coach fired.

The Chiefs need football players, not potential football players.

Especially in the first two rounds.

Are you okay with Curry at #3?

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 03:03 PM
Would Monroe, Albert & Wood anchor a great line?

Absolutely.

The problem is that the value isn't there for the Chiefs. They've GOT a good left tackle and if you drafted Monroe, you've got TWO left tackles and a shit ton of cap room tied up in them.

It's been pointed out many times, there isn't a lot of cap room tied up in Albert.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 03:07 PM
Are you okay with Curry at #3?

:Lin:

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 03:08 PM
It's been pointed out many times, there isn't a lot of cap room tied up in Albert.

I have not seen that posted.

Regardless, I would not advocate drafting another left tackle in the first round. The current left tackle is just fine.

keg in kc
03-18-2009, 03:10 PM
I have not seen that posted.

Regardless, I would not advocate drafting another left tackle in the first round. The current left tackle is just fine.My personal belief is that the current left tackle is a better left tackle than any of the ones we'd be drafting.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 03:14 PM
My personal belief is that the current left tackle is a better left tackle than any of the ones we'd be drafting.

I concur.

I still think (and I've said this in many threads), the Chiefs will find a way to trade back at least once in the first round (if not twice) so they can gain extra picks in which to rebuild the offense, specifically the offense line.

There's no way they put their $14 million dollar QB out there behind Niswanger, Sackintosh and Jones.

keg in kc
03-18-2009, 03:27 PM
I hope they can trade down, but I think their initial pick is defense. This is a year for mid-round picks on offense. And no, I don't mean Curry. I think they'll go nose tackle or pass rusher first (this assuming they'll be doing some 3-4).

It's really hard to tell, though.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 03:30 PM
:Lin:

You say you want the team to take the best football player and that potential is what gets coaches fired. You adhere to that belief, yet you don't want the best football player in the draft?

Brock
03-18-2009, 03:36 PM
There should be an equivalent player at another position. There is no reason to replace a rookie LT who did more than hold his own. Ideally, these trade down rumors are true.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 03:43 PM
You say you want the team to take the best football player and that potential is what gets coaches fired. You adhere to that belief, yet you don't want the best football player in the draft?

Personally, I don't believe he warrants that draft position.

htismaqe
03-18-2009, 04:17 PM
My personal belief is that the current left tackle is a better left tackle than any of the ones we'd be drafting.

This.

Tribal Warfare
03-18-2009, 04:30 PM
So you draft Tamba Hali(field production), I'll draft Connor Barwin(all potential), let's see who's ahead in 5 years.


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=169399

Barwin's stat line isn't shabby either, even the Patriots are looking at this kid which means Pioli is analyzing this kids ability to play in the hybrid scheme that could be coming in the '09 season.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 07:07 PM
After I called you out on your original statement, you began qualifying it with "that we know of."

That doesn't change what you said. And seeing as how you've conceded nothing, I can only assume you still believe there are no impact pass rushers anywhere in this draft. None of them will ever be great according to your original words.

I said it numerous times your "mock" thread:

Are stating that none of these players will be first rounders or that there was another year of college evaluation needed?

One more thing: Great pass rushers don't grow on trees and they don't often go unnoticed by the NFL. If there were any great pass rusher that they know of, we'd know of them.

What I'm saying is that at this time, there are no game changing, monster defensive ends that we know of at this time.

Anything's possible. But if you THINK a guy is a monster, you take him high and you rate him high.

At this time, there's no such guy.

He said "that they know of." No one had any clue that Jared Allen would turn out as good as he did on the field.

I've said it so many times in the Draft forum over the past several months that I didn't think I needed to say it in every fucking post to make myself clear or my position.

Furthermore:

The oldest guy on that list is Bertram Berry, going on his 12 season. So take the last 11 drafts:

Total players taken in draft since 1998: 2789 (100%)

Total players taken in first two rounds since 1998: 703 (25%) (NE forfeited a pick)

Total player taken in 3rd or later since 1998: 2086 (75%)

Total players taken "undrafted" since 1998: unknown (I'm not digging)


3rd round or later is a very large group. 3X the size of the top 2 round guys.

I'll let you take a guess at how many of those player were DE's. Once you decide, do the math and let us all know what the chances of a player taken in the top 2 rounds chances are of becoming a top 10 DE. Then let us know what kind of chance the 3rd round or later guys have.

To be more accurate, you could find out where the top 10 sack leaders of the last 10-12 yrs. were drafted. Then let us know the chances.

I'm guessing the Chances of a guy taken early, are much much higher than the guy taken late. Hence the importance of the early picks.

Saul Good
03-18-2009, 08:29 PM
Players drafted in the first and second round are expected to start immediately and produce. I don't know why you can't understand this. It's mind boggling.

Furthermore, we were previously talking about the Top Ten picks (if not Top 5). Guys are expected to start and make an immediate impact, period.

Again, I'll ask you: Please name the last pass rusher to make an immediate impact that was drafted outside of the first round.

I'm waiting.
Three players tied for the lead in sacks for rookies in 2008.

Cliff Avril tied for the lead among NFL rookies in sacks in 2008. 3rd round pick.

Jason Jones tied for the lead among NFL rookies in sacks in 2008. 2nd round pick.

Trevor Scott tied for the lead among NFL rookies in sacks in 2008. 6th round pick.

Saul Good
03-18-2009, 08:33 PM
Yes.

And in hindsight, I'd say that had anyone known that they'd have that type of production, they'd have been drafted much higher.

Say, in the first round?

Please don't tell me that you're trying to convince us (me) that the Broncos expected a fourth round draft choice to make an immediate impact and have nearly a double-digit rookie season.How is that different than any player at other positions that turns out to be great?

I fail to see your point.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 08:34 PM
Three players tied for the lead in sacks for rookies in 2008.

Cliff Avril tied for the lead among NFL rookies in sacks in 2008. 3rd round pick.

Jason Jones tied for the lead among NFL rookies in sacks in 2008. 2nd round pick.

Trevor Scott tied for the lead among NFL rookies in sacks in 2008. 6th round pick.

All three had five sacks.

Does that spell "impact" for you?

If so, I guess Tamba Hali is a monster.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 08:35 PM
How is that different than any player at other positions that turns out to be great?

I fail to see your point.

The point, Mr. Good, is that you cannot rely on second day picks to make an immediate impact.

Which is exactly why they're second day picks and not first day picks.

The ratio of second day picks overall to those who "turn out to be great" is heinously low.

Saul Good
03-18-2009, 08:48 PM
All three had five sacks.

Does that spell "impact" for you?

If so, I guess Tamba Hali is a monster.And the year before, the leader had six, and the runner up had 5.5. Mark Anderson had 12 as a 5th round pick in 2006. Jared Allen led the league all rookies as a late round pick. Hali had 8 his rookie year.

Your point holds no water on so many levels that refuting it is like trying to cram toothpaste back into the tube.

Saul Good
03-18-2009, 08:54 PM
The point, Mr. Good, is that you cannot rely on second day picks to make an immediate impact.

Which is exactly why they're second day picks and not first day picks.

The ratio of second day picks overall to those who "turn out to be great" is heinously low.

And not one first round pick in 2008 had more than 4 sacks. Mario Williams had 4.5 in his rookie year. I guess he just wasn't an immediate impact. Fortunately, he had the potential to rack up 26 sacks in the next 2 seasons.

I seem to recall an argument about players being drafted in the top 10 only if they are expected to have an immediate impact. If that were the case, nobody would ever draft a DT in the first round. It's been 9 years since a DT had 6 or more sacks as a rookie.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 09:25 PM
And the year before, the leader had six, and the runner up had 5.5. Mark Anderson had 12 as a 5th round pick in 2006. Jared Allen led the league all rookies as a late round pick. Hali had 8 his rookie year.

And Mark Anderson has had 6 total sacks since.

Jared Allen got a DUI in high school, a DUI in college, only bench pressed 225 nine times and went to Idaho State.

No one, including the Chiefs, expected him to become a dominant pass rusher.

But you just go ahead and give us the dozens and dozens of examples of second day picks that had an immediate impact, beyond the obvious few.

Considering that there are a minimum of 165 players taken each year from rounds 3-7, over the course of a decade, that's well more than 1,000 players.

The percentage that become "great" players and have "great" careers is miniscule.

Your point holds no water on so many levels that refuting it is like trying to cram toothpaste back into the tube.

And you're an idiot.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 09:28 PM
And not one first round pick in 2008 had more than 4 sacks. Mario Williams had 4.5 in his rookie year. I guess he just wasn't an immediate impact. Fortunately, he had the potential to rack up 26 sacks in the next 2 seasons.

And Mario Williams was considered a "bust" by many, including dozens on this very forum. Neil Smith (3 sacks) was considered a "bust" by Chiefs fans, too.

Why is that?

Expectations. These guys were expected to make a larger impact immediately. Some, like Ryan Sims, never make an impact.

I seem to recall an argument about players being drafted in the top 10 only if they are expected to have an immediate impact. If that were the case, nobody would ever draft a DT in the first round. It's been 9 years since a DT had 6 or more sacks as a rookie.

Sacks are only one aspect of a great DT prospect. I'd also say it's a highly over-rated aspect in today's game.

Chiefnj2
03-18-2009, 10:12 PM
The point, Mr. Good, is that you cannot rely on second day picks to make an immediate impact.

Which is exactly why they're second day picks and not first day picks.

The ratio of second day picks overall to those who "turn out to be great" is heinously low.

Dane, you've been given a bunch of examples where 2nd day picks led all rookies in sacks their first year. Your point fails tonight, just like it did earlier in the day.

A lot of those non-first round picks are 4 year college players with lots of playing experience but are viewed as having a lower ceiling mostly because of limited god-given athleticism. Their playing experience gives them an edge their first year in the league. Lots of the top DE's are guys taken because of their athleticism (Gholston) and many come out early. Guys who declare early struggle very often getting used to the game. That's a reason why they don't put up numbers their first year.

DaneMcCloud
03-18-2009, 10:35 PM
Dane, you've been given a bunch of examples where 2nd day picks led all rookies in sacks their first year. Your point fails tonight, just like it did earlier in the day.

A lot of those non-first round picks are 4 year college players with lots of playing experience but are viewed as having a lower ceiling mostly because of limited god-given athleticism. Their playing experience gives them an edge their first year in the league. Lots of the top DE's are guys taken because of their athleticism (Gholston) and many come out early. Guys who declare early struggle very often getting used to the game. That's a reason why they don't put up numbers their first year.

So, you're of the opinion, despite the facts to the contrary, that's there's no difference between a first rounder and a 5th rounder?

And 5 sacks isn't jackshit. And as for Anderson, do you think he's a impact player now?

WTF?

htismaqe
03-19-2009, 10:28 AM
Can we move past this now?

DaneMcCloud
03-19-2009, 11:38 AM
Can we move past this now?

Apparently not.

I guess I missed the memo that stated that draft status is worthless and 2nd day picks are the real superstars.

bdeg
03-19-2009, 02:27 PM
Apparently not.

I guess I missed the memo that stated that draft status is worthless and 2nd day picks are the real superstars.

You claimed that every pass rusher who's going to have a great career would be rated in the top 5 coming out. Because there are none rated in the top five, you claimed:
dane: "an impact pass rusher that DOESN'T EXIST in the 2009 draft"
That's flat out wrong and none of this changes that

I never said a 4th round pass rusher has as good of a chance to be great as that of a first rounder. I used stats to prove you wrong, and you used those stats to put words in my mouth.

And that post you quoted that disputed my stats is totally inaccurate. Bertrand Berry only had 5 reg season sacks last year.

If all or even most of these elite pass rushers were rated in the top 5 coming out, I would expect to see that more than 6.7% of the top-5 sack-getters from the last 3 years were selected in the top 10. Not the case.

Don't say noone expected Jared Allen to be a good pass rusher, that's not true and half of my point is that the scouting process isn't perfect.

htismaqe
03-19-2009, 02:32 PM
Obviously, neither of you are going to yield, regardless of who is right. Can we just move on?

bdeg
03-19-2009, 02:39 PM
He was chosen because of Carl's relationship with LJ's father and because he was "NFL Ready".

He was maxed out in college and was a poor draft decision.


So why was he a bad decision? Because he was maxed out in college? I thought potential wasn't important, Tamba was "NFL Ready" isn't that what you've been clamoring for?

bdeg
03-19-2009, 02:40 PM
Obviously, neither of you are going to yield, regardless of who is right. Can we just move on?

I left it alone for a day and he's still quoting posts at me, without answering any of my questions. I was ready to be done

Chiefnj2
03-19-2009, 02:48 PM
I left it alone for a day and he's still quoting posts at me, without answering any of my questions. I was ready to be done

Why bother? He's not going to admit he was wrong. He'll just keep changing the question. The fact that just about everything he said was refuted and he still came back to bump the thread after htis asked it to end, tells you everything you need to know.

bdeg
03-19-2009, 02:49 PM
Why bother? He's not going to admit he was wrong. He'll just keep changing the question. The fact that just about everything he said was refuted and he still came back to bump the thread after htis asked it to end, tells you everything you need to know.

Agreed. I'm done.

SBK
03-19-2009, 03:40 PM
Obviously, neither of you are going to yield, regardless of who is right. Can we just move on?

No, it still has yet to be decided who has the bigger dick. :)

bdeg
03-19-2009, 03:50 PM
No, it still has yet to be decided who has the bigger dick. :)

Shut up. I took issue with him because he started name-calling for no reason. That's all this was.

DaneMcCloud
03-19-2009, 03:58 PM
You claimed that every pass rusher who's going to have a great career would be rated in the top 5 coming out. Because there are none rated in the top five, you claimed:
dane: "an impact pass rusher that DOESN'T EXIST in the 2009 draft"
That's flat out wrong and none of this changes that

Alright, Fuckface, I quoted myself in several posts where I said "THAT WE KNOW OF".

Are you going to continue to bash me because I didn't say it one fucking time after proclaiming that very thing for MONTHS?

And it's NOT wrong because IF the scouts were aware of any game-changing, pass rushing monsters, they'd most certainly be rated in the Top 5. THEY ALWAYS ARE.

I never ONCE said that players couldn't develop into impact pass rushers, I said that IF there were any available that WE KNOW OF, WE KNOW.

I never said a 4th round pass rusher has as good of a chance to be great as that of a first rounder. I used stats to prove you wrong, and you used those stats to put words in my mouth.


Don't say noone expected Jared Allen to be a good pass rusher, that's not true and half of my point is that the scouting process isn't perfect.

BULL FUCKING SHIT.

If ANY NFL team knew for certain that Jared Allen (of little tiny Idaho State) was going to be a consistent, double digit sack machine each and every year, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN A TOP 5 PICK.

The Chiefs fucking drafted him to be a long snapper. That CANNOT be disputed.

SBK
03-19-2009, 03:59 PM
Shut up. I took issue with him because he started name-calling for no reason. That's all this was.

Would you please give me some more F U negative rep?

DaneMcCloud
03-19-2009, 03:59 PM
So why was he a bad decision? Because he was maxed out in college? I thought potential wasn't important, Tamba was "NFL Ready" isn't that what you've been clamoring for?

Go fuck yourself.

You clearly can't read.

Maybe that'll make you happy.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-19-2009, 04:00 PM
Alright, Fuckface, I quoted myself in several posts where I said "THAT WE KNOW OF".

Are you going to continue to bash me because I didn't say it one fucking time after proclaiming that very thing for MONTHS?

And it's NOT wrong because IF the scouts were aware of any game-changing, pass rushing monsters, they'd most certainly be rated in the Top 5. THEY ALWAYS ARE.

I never ONCE said that players couldn't develop into impact pass rushers, I said that IF there were any available that WE KNOW OF, WE KNOW.

I never said a 4th round pass rusher has as good of a chance to be great as that of a first rounder. I used stats to prove you wrong, and you used those stats to put words in my mouth.




BULL FUCKING SHIT.

If ANY NFL team knew for certain that Jared Allen (of little tiny Idaho State) was going to be a consistent, double digit sack machine each and every year, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN A TOP 5 PICK.

The Chiefs fucking drafted him to be a long snapper. That CANNOT be disputed.


..............you had me at "Alright, Fuckface."

DaneMcCloud
03-19-2009, 04:00 PM
I left it alone for a day and he's still quoting posts at me, without answering any of my questions. I was ready to be done

What question, you fucking moron?

YOU repeatedly quoted ME out of context and you clearly left out the most important aspect of my argument: THAT WE KNOW OF.

You fucking admitted it earlier but you just kept going.