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View Full Version : General Politics Israel to begin controversial construction on West Bank. Ummm.... yikes?


Direckshun
03-25-2009, 06:15 PM
Map for the geographically challenged:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/West_Bank_%26_Gaza_Map_2007_%28Settlements%29.png

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073771.html

Last update - 13:38 25/03/2009
Netanyahu, Lieberman 'struck secret deal for West Bank construction'

By Haaretz Service

Prime Minister-designate Benjamin Netanyahu has struck a secret deal with Yisrael Beiteinu leader Avigdor Lieberman for highly contentious construction on West Bank land known as E1, Army Radio reported Wednesday.

A source close to the negotiations between the pair told Army Radio that the plan had been agreed upon even though it did not appear in the official document detailing the coalition deal between Yisrael Beiteinu and Netanyahu's Likud.

The plan is for the West Bank settlement of Ma'aleh Adumim to build 3000 new housing units on the territory, which stretches between it and Jerusalem, the source was quoted as saying.

Construction in the area is particularly sensitive because it would create contiguity between the settlement and the capital, which in turn would prevent Palestinian construction between East Jerusalem and Ramallah.

This would also make it difficult to reach agreement between Israel and the Palestinians on the question of permanent borders.

For this reason, the United States has strongly opposed this sort of Israeli construction for more than a decade. Israeli governments have avoided construction in this area, mostly because of U.S. pressure.

Direckshun
03-25-2009, 06:17 PM
I think most folks know that a two-state solution is the only thing you can do to get a mediocum of rational conversation going here.

To get two states, you need borders. This is perhaps the most aggressive challenge to that by ISRAEL THEMSELVES that we've seen.

So.

Fuck.

Simplex3
03-25-2009, 06:22 PM
So when Mexico decides to lay claim on California because more than 50% of the inhabitants are their citizens and it once was a part of Mexico (a claim the Palestinians can't make), will your solution be to give it to them?

wild1
03-25-2009, 06:25 PM
Well, isn't Hamas is getting something like $900 million from our government to do "construction" in Gaza? I guess that evens it out.

Direckshun
03-25-2009, 06:31 PM
So when Mexico decides to lay claim on California because more than 50% of the inhabitants are their citizens and it once was a part of Mexico (a claim the Palestinians can't make), will your solution be to give it to them?

Wow. Okay.

Direckshun
03-25-2009, 06:34 PM
Well, isn't Hamas is getting something like $900 million from our government to do "construction" in Gaza? I guess that evens it out.

I don't really know how that evens it out, if the construction is largely RECONSTRUCTION of area that ISN'T disputed by both sides.

jAZ
03-25-2009, 06:36 PM
why?
Posted via Mobile Device

wild1
03-25-2009, 06:38 PM
I don't really know how that evens it out, if the construction is largely RECONSTRUCTION of area that ISN'T disputed by both sides.

i am just amusing myself. I wanted to confirm that you wouldn't object to almost a billion dollars being funneled to Hamas. You did not disappoint.

SBK
03-25-2009, 06:43 PM
I think most folks know that a two-state solution is the only thing you can do to get a mediocum of rational conversation going here.

To get two states, you need borders. This is perhaps the most aggressive challenge to that by ISRAEL THEMSELVES that we've seen.

So.

****.

They're always going to be fighting. They've been fighting for thousands of years.

wazu
03-25-2009, 06:46 PM
So when Mexico decides to lay claim on California because more than 50% of the inhabitants are their citizens and it once was a part of Mexico (a claim the Palestinians can't make), will your solution be to give it to them?

Yes, but not for any of the reasons you named.

HonestChieffan
03-25-2009, 06:51 PM
Jews dont trust US Government right now so they will do whatever they want and let the chips fall. The fact is when push comes to shove, the US will still need them to help us out and when we do the price will be high. In the meantime they have to look out for themselves since they cant depend on the US.

Direckshun
03-25-2009, 06:54 PM
i am just amusing myself. I wanted to confirm that you wouldn't object to almost a billion dollars being funneled to Hamas. You did not disappoint.

I didn't opine on that either way, but I'll leave you to your scarecrow.

Direckshun
03-25-2009, 06:54 PM
why?

Hm?

Direckshun
03-25-2009, 06:55 PM
They're always going to be fighting. They've been fighting for thousands of years.

Thanks for that knowledge. Since I've been living under a fucking rock for two thousand years, I appreciate it.

Direckshun
03-25-2009, 07:00 PM
Jews dont trust US Government right now so they will do whatever they want and let the chips fall. The fact is when push comes to shove, the US will still need them to help us out and when we do the price will be high. In the meantime they have to look out for themselves since they cant depend on the US.

I don't know why they wouldn't trust the US government. We continue to funnel as much money and arms their way as we always have, and the one attempt by the Obama administration to appoint somebody who wasn't ridiculously pro-Israel (Chas Freeman, who is actually pro-Palestinian) was completely shot down before it ever began. The Obama administration, from all outward appearances, is in Israel's pocket just as much as the Bush administration was.

But I'm loving your rational for ALL of Israel's aggressiveness -- it's Obama's fault. When they launced a small-scale war on Gaza during Bush's final days, it was because they didn't trust Obama. Now that they're embarking on a construction project that may single-handedly jeopardize a rational two-state solution, it's Obama's fault because they didn't trust Obama.

Maybe it's because the new Israel government is a hard right, fundamentalist government that spouts a particularly aggressive foreign policy. This is not the same Israel we've been dealing with in recent years.

mlyonsd
03-25-2009, 07:32 PM
I don't know why they wouldn't trust the US government. We continue to funnel as much money and arms their way as we always have, and the one attempt by the Obama administration to appoint somebody who wasn't ridiculously pro-Israel (Chas Freeman, who is actually pro-Palestinian) was completely shot down before it ever began. The Obama administration, from all outward appearances, is in Israel's pocket just as much as the Bush administration was.

But I'm loving your rational for ALL of Israel's aggressiveness -- it's Obama's fault. When they launced a small-scale war on Gaza during Bush's final days, it was because they didn't trust Obama. Now that they're embarking on a construction project that may single-handedly jeopardize a rational two-state solution, it's Obama's fault because they didn't trust Obama.

Maybe it's because the new Israel government is a hard right, fundamentalist government that spouts a particularly aggressive foreign policy. This is not the same Israel we've been dealing with in recent years.

Tell us, what should Israel do so rockets quit dropping out of the sky on the general population?

FTR, I think Obama being president has no bearing on what Israeil thinks they should do. Or Carter, or Clinton, or Bush.

Direckshun
03-25-2009, 07:37 PM
Tell us, what should Israel do so rockets quit dropping out of the sky on the general population?

FTR, I think Obama being president has no bearing on what Israeil thinks they should do. Or Carter, or Clinton, or Bush.

Me neither.

Thing is, I don't think there's anything Israel can do to prevent attacks from Palestine, especially under Hamas rule. So long as Palestine's ruling authority is held captive to the idea that Jews must be wiped off the map, these attacks will never stop.

But there are perfectly reasonable things you can do to reduce attacks. You're never going to be rid of the religious fanatics, but you can reduce their stateside support by giving them their own territory that they can call their own. By understanding that warfare with Hamas fanatics will always be asymmetrical, and therefore never ceasing the high ground in terms of battle strategy. By not threatening Palestinian access to Jerusalem.

These are perfectly reasonable requests that the Palestinians deserve and the Israeli state can deliver. And it all starts with a two-state solution.

The Obama administration knows that. To a lesser extent, the Bush administration knew that.

Natenyahu may even know that. But the truth is, he doesn't care.

Simplex3
03-25-2009, 07:44 PM
Wow. In the same post you admit that they are religious zealots who are only interested in your destruction and then suggest that they'll give that up if you give them some stuff.

Direckshun
03-26-2009, 05:44 PM
Wow. In the same post you admit that they are religious zealots who are only interested in your destruction and then suggest that they'll give that up if you give them some stuff.

First of all, I don't think they give a shit about me. I live in Springfield.

Second of all, you must understand that nothing we ever do will stop the worst of the worst in Palestine from bombing Jews. Nothing. We could move every Jew to the other side of the planet and it will never stop.

And while we fight these guys (and a civilized, self-respecting democracy will always have the short end of the stick in assymetrical warfare), it's important not to adopt tactics that will provide larger swaths of the moderate population in Palestine to throw their support behind Hamas and the dangerous assholes who want Jews dead.

Moderates in the Middle East largely hate being run by over-aggressive, jihad-waging fanatics who want to kill people. They just want their land run effectively and for their families and rights to be protected. Hamas was not voted in because they hate Jews; they were voted in because no other organization in Palestine came close to matching their massive humanitarian efforts in Palestine. I'm not saying its right, but it's important to understand context here.

Moderates in Palestine don't want radicals firing missles indiscriminately into Israel because they hate Jews or America. It kills just as many Muslims as it does Jews, and it incites a brutally strong Israeli military to storm the border. If moderates in Palestine support firing missles, it's because they think firing missles keeps them safe and somehow ensures their rights.

When the moderates in Palestine find themselve backing the Hamas regime, any hope that might have existed for a peaceful solution (I know, I know) is lost before it began. Win those moderates over, and you've got a chance, especially when that chance is a two-state solution that nearly everybody thinks is a great starting point for peace. Stupid, unnecessary moves like building condos between the West Bank and Jerusalem hurts those odds immeasurably.

Simplex3
03-27-2009, 11:39 AM
You can't reason with someone who believes their eternal salvation depends on either converting you or killing you. Do what you want, say what you want, because at the end of the day the end game doesn't change. They may whine a complain to the media more, less, or differently, but they still think that their eternal soul depends on you being dead or worshiping Allah. Those are the only two options.

Direckshun
03-27-2009, 11:43 AM
You can't reason with someone who believes their eternal salvation depends on either converting you or killing you. Do what you want, say what you want, because at the end of the day the end game doesn't change. They may whine a complain to the media more, less, or differently, but they still think that their eternal soul depends on you being dead or worshiping Allah. Those are the only two options.

The EXTREMISTS, yes. You can't reason with them. I've said as much.

But Palestinians, for the most part, ARE NOT extremists. They just want to be safe and they want their families taken care of. This is mainstream Palestinian society.

The war we're at is winning over that mainstream society, and convincing them they do not need to rely on Hamas and extremists to be safe and provided for. If we do that, peace is achievable.

Although, and you're right about this, that peace will probably never be absolute.

patteeu
03-27-2009, 12:01 PM
I don't know why they wouldn't trust the US government.

Because we've elected a pro-Hamas POTUS, maybe?

Or maybe it's just because he surrounded himself during his campaign with anti-Israeli foreign policy experts. :shrug:

Direckshun
03-27-2009, 12:06 PM
Because we've elected a pro-Hamas POTUS, maybe?

This "pro-Hamas POTUS" tried to appoint a single pro-Palestinian individual to his cabinet and got shot down, hard. The vote never even occured.

So I don't know why people fail to understand that the Obama administration is just as beholden to AIPAC and the Israeli lobby as the Bush administration was when its Cabinet is ideologically identical on the issue and its goals are identical on the issue.

You cannot tell me the billions in reconstruction to Palestine was a ploy to weaken Israel. You just can't force Palestine to rebuild itself without help after an Israeli invasion and expect a successful solution.

Brock
03-27-2009, 02:12 PM
Why does this bother you?

petegz28
03-27-2009, 02:44 PM
Yes, but not for any of the reasons you named.

You are ready to hand Ca over to Mexico?