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Dave Lane
03-27-2009, 04:05 PM
A stunning defense of christianity.


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chasedude
03-27-2009, 04:12 PM
LMAO That was comical!

Mr. Kotter
03-27-2009, 04:13 PM
Dave, Dave, Dave...:rolleyes:

I'd look up some equally retarded and "stunning" defenses of Atheism.

I think I'll take a dump instead though, okay?

nstygma
03-27-2009, 04:14 PM
anyone else find that guy's voice highly irritating?

nstygma
03-27-2009, 04:31 PM
so do atheists believe in the supernatural at all?

keg in kc
03-27-2009, 04:36 PM
so do atheists believe in the supernatural at all?Would probably depend on what you're talking about, and whether there's any verifiable evidence of it.

Psyko Tek
03-27-2009, 04:41 PM
is this guy for real?

edward current
has some amazing agurments

Baby Lee
03-27-2009, 04:43 PM
so do atheists believe in the supernatural at all?

They kneel before the God of snark.

BucEyedPea
03-27-2009, 04:50 PM
Gee Dave, I checked out that Bahia link since you claimed to be spiritual and you had to work for a One World Govt per that site. Nice blend of state and religion there.

***SPRAYER
03-27-2009, 04:57 PM
Hey, look at me! I'm Dave Lane! Please, somebody, notice me! Please!

Adept Havelock
03-27-2009, 05:01 PM
so do atheists believe in the supernatural at all?

I don't know about others, but I don't.

I don't see any difference between believing in some supernatural all powerful entity, or believing in ghosts, demons, goblins, angels, astrology, crystal healing, astral projection, remote viewing, magic, ouija boards, tarot cards, etc.

JMO.

Would probably depend on what you're talking about, and whether there's any verifiable evidence of it.

Seems to me if there is verifiable evidence of it, it's part of the natural world, not supernatural. :shrug:

sd4chiefs
03-27-2009, 05:02 PM
so do atheists believe in the supernatural at all?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-tJKP1bWFw

kaplin42
03-27-2009, 05:15 PM
those were hilarious.

I personally liked the OP, and the What if God Disappeared.

***SPRAYER
03-27-2009, 05:19 PM
I don't know about others, but I don't.

I don't see any difference between believing in some supernatural all powerful entity, or believing in ghosts, demons, goblins, angels, astrology, crystal healing, astral projection, remote viewing, magic, ouija boards, tarot cards, etc.

JMO.



Seems to me if there is verifiable evidence of it, it's part of the natural world, not supernatural. :shrug:


HEY LOOK AT ME! I'M AN ATHEIST AND I'M SMARTER THAN YOU!

Dave Lane
03-27-2009, 05:20 PM
HEY LOOK AT ME! I'M AN ATHEIST AND I'M SMARTER THAN YOU!

Now you're getting it! Good job!!

;)

kaplin42
03-27-2009, 05:21 PM
I don't know about others, but I don't.

I don't see any difference between believing in some supernatural all powerful entity, or believing in ghosts, demons, goblins, angels, astrology, crystal healing, astral projection, remote viewing, magic, ouija boards, tarot cards, etc.

JMO.



Seems to me if there is verifiable evidence of it, it's part of the natural world, not supernatural. :shrug:


I on the other hand would say yes. Atheist don't believe in a supreme being, designed the world and all other things and plans everything out. While angels and demons would come along with the christian version of this god, they may be suspect be included in the general supernatural.

But ghosts, spirits, things we don't understand, yes very possible.

keg in kc
03-27-2009, 05:21 PM
Seems to me if there is verifiable evidence of it, it's part of the natural world, not supernatural. It would be once you understood it.

I'll just use a ghost as an example. One person studying the phenomena could be looking for a lingering spirit, while another could be searching for some kind of electromagnetic temporal imprint. Still a "supernatural" event by its nature and long-standing tradition, but you could be an atheist and still look for either of those things; a belief in 'God' is not required, even for the 'spirit' argument.

Baby Lee
03-27-2009, 05:22 PM
I don't know about others, but I don't.

I don't see any difference between believing in some supernatural all powerful entity, or believing in ghosts, demons, goblins, angels, astrology, crystal healing, astral projection, remote viewing, magic, ouija boards, tarot cards, etc.

JMO.



Seems to me if there is verifiable evidence of it, it's part of the natural world, not supernatural. :shrug:


Further, you can't see any difference between the Mona Lisa and a Velvet Elvis, ergo all art is equally stupid.

***SPRAYER
03-27-2009, 05:22 PM
Now you're getting it! Good job!!

;)

Dave, if you really want to have a good laugh, watch An Inconvient Truth.

ROFL

keg in kc
03-27-2009, 05:23 PM
Hey, look at me, I'm an apricot and I'm smarter than you.

http://ladybirds.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/apricot31.jpg

SBK
03-27-2009, 05:27 PM
so do atheists believe in the supernatural at all?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wxZUnN00WM4/SakwkNsE5wI/AAAAAAAAA7s/2bgP276mxF8/s400/barack_obama_halo_Dear_Lord.png

***SPRAYER
03-27-2009, 05:28 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wxZUnN00WM4/SakwkNsE5wI/AAAAAAAAA7s/2bgP276mxF8/s400/barack_obama_halo_Dear_Lord.png


HOLY SHIT!

ROFL

Ultra Peanut
03-27-2009, 05:30 PM
http://j.photos.cx/1zykkgp-e0f.gif

***SPRAYER
03-27-2009, 05:31 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wxZUnN00WM4/SakwkNsE5wI/AAAAAAAAA7s/2bgP276mxF8/s400/barack_obama_halo_Dear_Lord.png


ROFL

Adept Havelock
03-27-2009, 05:39 PM
I on the other hand would say yes. Atheist don't believe in a supreme being, designed the world and all other things and plans everything out. While angels and demons would come along with the christian version of this god, they may be suspect be included in the general supernatural.

But ghosts, spirits, things we don't understand, yes very possible.

It would be once you understood it.

I'll just use a ghost as an example. One person studying the phenomena could be looking for a lingering spirit, while another could be searching for some kind of electromagnetic temporal imprint. Still a "supernatural" event by its nature and long-standing tradition, but you could be an atheist and still look for either of those things; a belief in 'God' is not required, even for the 'spirit' argument.

Fair enough. The world would be frightfully boring if we all believed the same thing. I certainly don't pretend to know the absolute inerrant truth from some infallible source. I just go with what works for me. YMMV.

Further, you can't see any difference between the Mona Lisa and a Velvet Elvis, ergo all art is equally stupid.

Not really, but that does nicely illustrate that the difference between quality and pedestrian art, like the difference between religion and superstition, resides solely in the "eye of the beholder".

Chief Henry
03-27-2009, 05:41 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wxZUnN00WM4/SakwkNsE5wI/AAAAAAAAA7s/2bgP276mxF8/s400/barack_obama_halo_Dear_Lord.png




ROFL




Thread over

Jenson71
03-27-2009, 06:38 PM
Dave, Dave, Dave...:rolleyes:

I'd look up some equally retarded and "stunning" defenses of Atheism.

I think I'll take a dump instead though, okay?

I have just a slight feeling the creater of the video was not actually a Christian.

Sully
03-27-2009, 06:42 PM
What's the point of this thread?
- to change minds?
- honest discussion?
- to poke fun?

Only one of those options looks right to me.

stevieray
03-27-2009, 06:43 PM
meet the new thread
same as the old thread

Douche Baggins
03-27-2009, 06:45 PM
This is why I'm agnostic. I can piss off more people. Including God. If he exists.

BucEyedPea
03-27-2009, 06:47 PM
meet the new thread
same as the old thread

LMAO Now that's funny! Especially for a Dave Lane topic— one trick pony.

jAZ
03-27-2009, 06:50 PM
Hey, look at me! I'm Dave Lane! Please, somebody, notice me! Please!

Correction, your name is SHTSPRAYER, not Dave Lane.

You are welcome.

Thig Lyfe
03-27-2009, 06:53 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wxZUnN00WM4/SakwkNsE5wI/AAAAAAAAA7s/2bgP276mxF8/s400/barack_obama_halo_Dear_Lord.png

You guys realize the only people who call Obama a messiah are conservatives, right?

What a hilariously persistent misconception.

Mr. Kotter
03-27-2009, 06:54 PM
What's the point of this thread?
- to change minds?
- honest discussion?
- to poke fun?

Only one of those options looks right to me.

Dave is bored again...

Choice "C"....:Poke:

irishjayhawk
03-27-2009, 06:56 PM
Ed Current is the man. He's pretty hilarious in almost all his videos.

Having said that, pretty dumb thread.

Mr. Kotter
03-27-2009, 06:56 PM
You guys realize the only people who call Obama a messiah are conservatives, right?

What a hilariously persistent misconception.

Did you see the emotion/tears/"joy" of some during the innauguration? :spock:

At least with Reagan, he was an actor even.... :hmmm:

jAZ
03-27-2009, 07:01 PM
so do atheists believe in the supernatural at all?

I don't know about atheists, but science by definition doesn't even address supernatural at all.

Dave Lane
03-27-2009, 10:13 PM
Hey, look at me, I'm an apricot and I'm smarter than you.

http://ladybirds.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/apricot31.jpg

Thats true it is smarter than shithead...

nstygma
03-27-2009, 10:21 PM
Seems to me if there is verifiable evidence of it, it's part of the natural world, not supernatural. :shrug:what about things we know of or currently beleive, but cannot yet prove?
what do you think of this? http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2009/mar/17/templeton-quantum-entanglement

petegz28
03-27-2009, 10:24 PM
Is this serious? Is this guy really serious with this bullshit? WOW! Just fucking wow. I am utterly speechless at the amount of fail in this snipit of ignorance.

Jenson71
03-27-2009, 11:03 PM
Is this serious? Is this guy really serious with this bullshit? WOW! Just ****ing wow. I am utterly speechless at the amount of fail in this snipit of ignorance.

No.

irishjayhawk
03-27-2009, 11:10 PM
No.

Yes.

Cannibal
03-27-2009, 11:19 PM
Hey, look at me! I'm Dave Lane! Please, somebody, notice me! Please!

How ironic, since everyone of your pathetic ramblings on this board are cries for attention... you f@ckin retard.

Cannibal
03-27-2009, 11:24 PM
LMAO Now that's funny! Especially for a Dave Lane topic— one trick pony.

Another ironic post seeing how you are the very definition of a one trick pony.

Jenson71
03-27-2009, 11:36 PM
Yes.

Don't try to confuse people now Irish

irishjayhawk
03-27-2009, 11:38 PM
Don't try to confuse people now Irish

A yes to a no is not confusing. ;)

Jenson71
03-27-2009, 11:42 PM
You should say "You are right, Jenson. As always." In fact, more people should be saying that around here.

jAZ
03-28-2009, 02:13 AM
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Psyko Tek
03-28-2009, 02:21 AM
I have just a slight feeling the creater of the video was not actually a Christian.

I really hope it's a parody, 'cause if that's the way faith works I don't want any part of it

BucEyedPea
03-28-2009, 06:39 AM
Another ironic post seeing how you are the very definition of a one trick pony.

Not like Dave Lane. He's only here to bash religion and Christianity. In fact that's when he shows up in here. Nothing more.

I post on numerous topics: war, economics, enviro issues, education. I just do it from a limited govt/freedom point of view ( anti socialist)...that's not the same thing and it's no different than anyone else in this forum including yourself. In general I avoid most the scandals on either side of the aisle. You just weren't here when I was agreeing with the left on the Iraq war...the Republican spending, Bush lying and even Nafta. Now take your lying misrepresentations elsewhere pinko.

Cannibal
03-28-2009, 01:58 PM
Not like Dave Lane. He's only here to bash religion and Christianity. In fact that's when he shows up in here. Nothing more.

I post on numerous topics: war, economics, enviro issues, education. I just do it from a limited govt/freedom point of view ( anti socialist)...that's not the same thing and it's no different than anyone else in this forum including yourself. In general I avoid most the scandals on either side of the aisle. You just weren't here when I was agreeing with the left on the Iraq war...the Republican spending, Bush lying and even Nafta. Now take your lying misrepresentations elsewhere pinko.

99% of your posts involve calling everything and everyone Socialist. You may start out on a different topic but you end up saying how that topic is or is not Socialist or how it does or does not relate to Ron Paul. So yes, you are a one trick pony and I stand by my statement.

KILLER_CLOWN
03-28-2009, 02:08 PM
Thunderbolts of the gods

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beavis
03-28-2009, 03:42 PM
http://j.photos.cx/1zykkgp-e0f.gif

That was the scariest documentary I've ever watched.

petegz28
03-28-2009, 05:11 PM
That was the scariest documentary I've ever watched.

WTF is that?

KC native
03-28-2009, 05:18 PM
You're all wrong. Accept his noodly goodness.

nstygma
03-28-2009, 06:17 PM
WTF is that?
that's the Lizardman trailer for the new Soul Calibur Live Action Movie coming out this Fall
here's another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xmD-jWlqK4
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/4876/27591739458121ninsoul20.jpg

Jenson71
03-28-2009, 06:26 PM
WTF is that?

It's from a film called Jesus Camp. It's been edited, and the strobe light effect has been added. I don't remember the dinosaur head though.

Ultra Peanut
03-28-2009, 06:44 PM
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Amnorix
03-28-2009, 08:18 PM
anyone else find that guy's voice highly irritating?

Yes, and I think it's got to be a parody. Especially since there's a "let's make it feel like the 14th century" or whatever screen in there about 3/4ths of the way through.

Amnorix
03-28-2009, 08:20 PM
I don't know about others, but I don't.

I don't see any difference between believing in some supernatural all powerful entity, or believing in ghosts, demons, goblins, angels, astrology, crystal healing, astral projection, remote viewing, magic, ouija boards, tarot cards, etc.

JMO.



Seems to me if there is verifiable evidence of it, it's part of the natural world, not supernatural. :shrug:

What he said.

sd4chiefs
03-28-2009, 10:45 PM
You're all wrong. Accept his noodly goodness.

http://www.freeworldgroup.com/games2/gameindex/flyingspag.htm

Ebolapox
03-29-2009, 12:35 PM
I on the other hand would say yes. Atheist don't believe in a supreme being, designed the world and all other things and plans everything out. While angels and demons would come along with the christian version of this god, they may be suspect be included in the general supernatural.

But ghosts, spirits, things we don't understand, yes very possible.

I lean to saying THIS.

I don't necessarily 'believe' in a supernatural--aka, ghosts, spirits, and things we don't understand. I think it's possible, but when I see shows that try to explain it through scientific means (those ghost hunter shows where they break out the hi-tech ghost hunting stuff) and they have NOTHING to show for it other than spooky montages, it kills almost any and all credibility and 'evidence.'

is it possible? sure. I believe almost anything is possible. but is it probable? no, I don't think so.

Molitoth
03-30-2009, 08:12 AM
That video was screaming sarcasm all of the way through.

Dave Lane
03-30-2009, 12:38 PM
99% of your posts involve calling everything and everyone Socialist. You may start out on a different topic but you end up saying how that topic is or is not Socialist or how it does or does not relate to Ron Paul. So yes, you are a one trick pony and I stand by my statement.

This is true and projection can be a bitch...

Chief Henry
03-30-2009, 01:34 PM
When atheists get really sick and are on they're death bed, do they even think about praying to GOD or to they're "Chicken Little" ?

petegz28
03-30-2009, 01:53 PM
When atheists get really sick and are on they're death bed, do they even think about praying to GOD or to they're "Chicken Little" ?

I think you have a very narrow view on "Atheism".

tiptap
03-30-2009, 02:47 PM
When atheists get really sick and are on they're death bed, do they even think about praying to GOD or to they're "Chicken Little" ?

Neither of my wife's parents offered any interest in such things in their deaths. Just loving family. It will be the same for my wife and for me. I don't doubt there are death bed conversions but I know that Richard Dawkins has plans to film his death to insure that wild and false rumors aren't started like was done by a christian women who only lived in the same town as Darwin.

If by some chance I am wrong I will be happy that my genetics will still be represented in heaven since a lot of my family claim Christianity for themselves. NOT.

kaplin42
03-30-2009, 02:47 PM
No.

Yes. He is serious about not being serious. He is delibertly trying to get a point acrossed. All though it is obvious its a satire. And I will say that if you watch all his videos, several of the points that he makes in his act, I have had used on me to prove how Christianity is right.

keg in kc
03-30-2009, 02:48 PM
When atheists get really sick and are on they're death bed, do they even think about praying to GOD or to they're "Chicken Little" ?Would it mean anything if they did? Is that really spiritual? Oh shit I'm gonna die I better hedge my bets?

Cannibal
03-30-2009, 03:00 PM
When atheists get really sick and are on they're death bed, do they even think about praying to GOD or to they're "Chicken Little" ?

Conversly, if and when stem cell research develops cures for various death dealing diseases, will Christians accept the cure, or will they stand by their religious principles of "life" and let god take them into heaven?

kaplin42
03-31-2009, 10:04 AM
Conversly, if and when stem cell research develops cures for various death dealing diseases, will Christians accept the cure, or will they stand by their religious principles of "life" and let god take them into heaven?

Right. Then it will be "God's Will" and they will be some of the first in line.

Chief Henry
03-31-2009, 11:07 AM
It looks like I struck a nerve with some.

In all seriousness now. If you have a loved one that developes cancer or some serious
sickenss, do you not pray even at those times ?

keg in kc
03-31-2009, 11:18 AM
In all seriousness now. If you have a loved one that developes cancer or some serious sickenss, do you not pray even at those times ?Of course not. It would be disingenuous. When there's an illness or a death in your family, do you pray to another religion's deity, or all other religions' deities, just to make sure you have your bases covered, even though you don't believe in any of them? I'm going to assume your answer is a resounding 'no'. So why would you expect someone else to do that?

Chief Henry
03-31-2009, 11:53 AM
Of course not. It would be disingenuous. When there's an illness or a death in your family, do you pray to another religion's deity, or all other religions' deities, just to make sure you have your bases covered, even though you don't believe in any of them? I'm going to assume your answer is a resounding 'no'. So why would you expect someone else to do that?



What do you do then ?

Dave Lane
03-31-2009, 04:17 PM
What do you do then ?

I don't know eat well and hope you get better???

keg in kc
03-31-2009, 04:33 PM
What do you do then ?What would anybody do? You be supportive if it's someone else, and you fight until you can't fight any more if it's you.

bowener
03-31-2009, 04:55 PM
Here is a good way to look at it, not much difference from a believer and a nonbeliever:

http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/gods-we-dont-believe-in.jpg

bowener
03-31-2009, 04:57 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_e7AQifMQKD4/SC-8fRZbd9I/AAAAAAAAApk/L4b0RPheuzQ/s400/fsm.jpg

Ebolapox
03-31-2009, 05:07 PM
It looks like I struck a nerve with some.

In all seriousness now. If you have a loved one that developes cancer or some serious
sickenss, do you not pray even at those times ?

honestly? no. doesn't mean I want them to die, but prayer does absolutely nothing. there have been studies that test prayer using the scientific method and double-blind studies (I know, science=scary for some people of a religious bent) and guess what... absolutely nothing.

Dave Lane
03-31-2009, 05:11 PM
honestly? no. doesn't mean I want them to die, but prayer does absolutely nothing. there have been studies that test prayer using the scientific method and double-blind studies (I know, science=scary for some people of a religious bent) and guess what... absolutely nothing.

If the pope never got sick or died you might have to go well maybe the power of 500 million people prayer means something.

Ebolapox
03-31-2009, 05:15 PM
If the pope never got sick or died you might have to go well maybe the power of 500 million people prayer means something.

I kinda get why some people believe. it can be comforting, I guess. I'm a third generation pk. I remember having been brainwashed. it's effective--catch em' young. however, it's fairly telling when any amount of logic is inflicted into the system, it breaks down.

that's all I'll say--I realize there are people who do believe on the board, who believe prayer works. more power to em.' I believed in santa claus at one point too.

nstygma
03-31-2009, 08:10 PM
I'm a third generation pk.what's that?

Jenson71
03-31-2009, 08:48 PM
Preacher's kid

Chief Henry
04-01-2009, 08:49 AM
What would anybody do? You be supportive if it's someone else, and you fight until you can't fight any more if it's you.

I know you'd be supportive, I know you'd show thelove and care that any one would. I guess I look back at my own life experiances and all the
family surgeries and days in the hospital. I've prayed countless times and
it gives me our strenth to get throughdifficult times.

I pray for strength and guidance daily and someone on here psoted that it
gives comfort. I think thats a good discription.

Prayer isn't just about being on someones death bed to hope they go to heaven. Prayer is a way of communication with the Lord. TO ask God for
help and forgiveness in ones life. Does it help ? It doesn't hurt.
It does help give comfort.

Miracles do happen and Prayer is vey powerful. I've seen it in our own families day to day life.

Dave Lane
04-01-2009, 09:02 AM
Why don't you just have the strength yourself? One of my biggest beefs with religion is that it dis-empowers people into believe the only way they succeed is through "god" and when things go wrong they don't blame him. So he gets all the credit when things go good and you get all the credit for things going wrong.

Pretty fucked up way to go through life psychologically.

petegz28
04-01-2009, 09:16 AM
Why don't you just have the strength yourself? One of my biggest beefs with religion is that it dis-empowers people into believe the only way they succeed is through "god" and when things go wrong they don't blame him. So he gets all the credit when things go good and you get all the credit for things going wrong.

Pretty ****ed up way to go through life psychologically.


Well now hold on a sec, Mr. Man. While I agree about the superficial take you demonstrate about having to rely on a diety, I do think it is not dis-empowering to gain strength from those around you. Including your environment. Tapping into the energy of the universe is not a bad thing, as it is there. I believe a lot of people who pray to God are simply doing just that.

But I agree to the point that the Chiefs lost in the playoff cause Jesus hates them or that the Colts won cause Jesus likes Peyton better is just hooey.

Chief Henry
04-01-2009, 10:05 AM
Why don't you just have the strength yourself? One of my biggest beefs with religion is that it dis-empowers people into believe the only way they succeed is through "god" and when things go wrong they don't blame him. So he gets all the credit when things go good and you get all the credit for things going wrong.

Pretty ****ed up way to go through life psychologically.



Its not "dis-empowering" to me. Prayer helps if its a genuine thing.

Prayer isn't "Oh God, please let Mizzou make this free throw
and I'll never kick another dog as long as I live" .

I wouldn't say its one of my biggest beefs how non believers think its
pretty ****ed up to go through life "believing". Why would you think
its pretty ****ed up when someone wants to pray for you or for help in they're personal life if they're own life is pretty ****ed up to begin with?
:shrug:

kaplin42
04-01-2009, 10:15 AM
What do you do then ?

We go crazy and eat people. Cause without the bible, and the prayer we are nothing more than animals.

I'm sorry, but this is exactly the type of comment, and mindset that this guy's videos are pointing out.

As stated above, we be as supportive as we can to our friends and loved ones, and if it's yourself, then you do what ever you can to get through it.

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 10:59 AM
The one thing I've gathered from listening to Atheists, is they all are assholes. Real first rate pricks, who think they know more than anyone else.

nstygma
04-01-2009, 11:05 AM
The one thing I've gathered from listening to Atheists, is they all are assholes. Real first rate pricks, who think they know more than anyone else.i'm prefer to think that most of the athiest posters here who behave that way, are probably not that way in real life. same can be said for anyone else too who acts up here.
what i tend to think is that the athiests put so much faith in their own intelligence that they completely discount anything above them simply because it doesn't follow their human logic. however, its easy to comprehend that God wouldn't conform to our rules and ideas anyway. plus, why wouldn't you want to search out the truth anyway, instead of being full of doubt and unbelief.

SBK
04-01-2009, 11:11 AM
The only difference is you put your faith in God, or you put your faith in the idea that there is no God.

Either way you have to believe something you cannot 100% prove.

Amnorix
04-01-2009, 11:13 AM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_e7AQifMQKD4/SC-8fRZbd9I/AAAAAAAAApk/L4b0RPheuzQ/s400/fsm.jpg

ROFL

Amnorix
04-01-2009, 11:15 AM
The one thing I've gathered from listening to Atheists, is they all are assholes. Real first rate pricks, who think they know more than anyone else.

Well, I'm sure that's true of atheists who are passionate about it.

Just like strongly religious folks are real firts rate pricks to either disbelievers or infidels. Keep in mind -- atheists haven't killed millions of non-believers the way just about every religious sect of any size has, so you can't really win the bigger prick argument here.

Amnorix
04-01-2009, 11:17 AM
The only difference is you put your faith in God, or you put your faith in the idea that there is no God.

Either way you have to believe something you cannot 100% prove.

Hence agnosticism.

But I don't consider myself as having "faith" in atheism/agnosticism, much more than you might have faith that the Earth isn't flat or whatever. I find most organized religions to be about as silly as flat earthers.

I do understand and appreciate, however, that organized religions can and do have related societal benefits if religious extremism isn't allowed to get carried away, whereas flat earthers offer nothing worth talking about.

Chief Faithful
04-01-2009, 11:20 AM
Why don't you just have the strength yourself? One of my biggest beefs with religion is that it dis-empowers people into believe the only way they succeed is through "god" and when things go wrong they don't blame him. So he gets all the credit when things go good and you get all the credit for things going wrong.

Pretty ****ed up way to go through life psychologically.

Some people of faith are like that, but why should it matter to you?

nstygma
04-01-2009, 11:21 AM
Well, I'm sure that's true of atheists who are passionate about it.

Just like strongly religious folks are real firts rate pricks to either disbelievers or infidels. Keep in mind -- atheists haven't killed millions of non-believers the way just about every religious sect of any size has, so you can't really win the bigger prick argument here.you are correct about people and their attitudes. being "religious" is often worse than being not. i think they call it self-righteousness or something like that. however, about the killing millions of people... do you think 46 million abortions yearly count for anything? (not trying to switch focus to that though)

nstygma
04-01-2009, 11:23 AM
The only difference is you put your faith in God, or you put your faith in the idea that there is no God.

Either way you have to believe something you cannot 100% prove.
tell that to people who get miracles and healing. cancer disappearing and so many other things. do you have any knowledge that things like that occur, through faith in God?

Chief Faithful
04-01-2009, 11:23 AM
Well, I'm sure that's true of atheists who are passionate about it.

Just like strongly religious folks are real firts rate pricks to either disbelievers or infidels. Keep in mind -- atheists haven't killed millions of non-believers the way just about every religious sect of any size has, so you can't really win the bigger prick argument here.

When did atheists ever have the numbers and organization to ever do anything of significance other than be pricks?

Amnorix
04-01-2009, 11:28 AM
you are correct about people and their attitudes. being "religious" is often worse than being not. i think they call it self-righteousness or something like that. however, about the killing millions of people... do you think 46 million abortions yearly count for anything? (not trying to switch focus to that though)

While I can appreciate how the deeply religious might attribute something that is such an anathema to their faith to the non-religious, I don't believe you can properly put "death by abortion" (even if we were to agree that the aborted fetus counted as people for purposes of being killed) into the column of responsibility of atheists/agnostics.

Simply put, atheists and agnostics still constitute a very small minority of the population of the United States and the world. They don't have the political clout that you might be suggesting. In any event the atheists/agnostics aren't directly committing the act in question (or, at least, not the vast majority of them), nor (and this is critical), are abortions committed BECAUSE OF the atheistic/agnostic beliefs of people who are in that category.

Millions have died BECAUSE they were not of the "right" religion in the history fo the world. I don't seem to recall ever reading about anyone being killed by a bunch of atheists for not being atheist.

Amnorix
04-01-2009, 11:28 AM
When did atheists ever have the numbers and organization to ever do anything of significance other than be pricks?

Not really.

Amnorix
04-01-2009, 11:30 AM
tell that to people who get miracles and healing. cancer disappearing and so many other things. do you have any knowledge that things like that occur, through faith in God?

Even if true, and I won't concede that it is, why has every religion in history ascribed acts to the gods in which they believed? Or does God give miracles to people no matter what religion they are, so long as they believe in God in some kind of generic sense?

kaplin42
04-01-2009, 11:39 AM
When did atheists ever have the numbers and organization to ever do anything of significance other than be pricks?

Holy Crap! Just because you have the numbers to do something doesn't make you right.

Dave Lane
04-01-2009, 11:54 AM
tell that to people who get miracles and healing. cancer disappearing and so many other things. do you have any knowledge that things like that occur, through faith in God?

:) You're fucking with me right??

Dave Lane
04-01-2009, 11:56 AM
Even if true, and I won't concede that it is, why has every religion in history ascribed acts to the gods in which they believed? Or does God give miracles to people no matter what religion they are, so long as they believe in God in some kind of generic sense?

Or don't believe in any at all? I've know several friends who were non believers and got well for no reason at all from nasty stuff. And yet the Pope keeps dying...

nstygma
04-01-2009, 12:02 PM
Even if true, and I won't concede that it is, why has every religion in history ascribed acts to the gods in which they believed? Or does God give miracles to people no matter what religion they are, so long as they believe in God in some kind of generic sense?satan does counterfeit stuff to deceive people. do you ever wonder why witch doctors, etc, have some real results?

:) You're ****ing with me right??
lol, you would never beleive most of the things i know.

nstygma
04-01-2009, 12:04 PM
And yet the Pope keeps dying...the same pope? :)
we're all human anyway. plus, he's just an ordinary man like you

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 12:13 PM
Well, I'm sure that's true of atheists who are passionate about it.

Just like strongly religious folks are real firts rate pricks to either disbelievers or infidels. Keep in mind -- atheists haven't killed millions of non-believers the way just about every religious sect of any size has, so you can't really win the bigger prick argument here.

Oh, I agree. I just think Atheists are special kind of asshole. It takes a special kind of asshole to preach about your non beliefs.

Fish
04-01-2009, 12:14 PM
you are correct about people and their attitudes. being "religious" is often worse than being not. i think they call it self-righteousness or something like that. however, about the killing millions of people... do you think 46 million abortions yearly count for anything? (not trying to switch focus to that though)

Out of those 46 million abortions, do you believe all of them were atheists?

Dave Lane
04-01-2009, 12:17 PM
the same pope? :)
we're all human anyway. plus, he's just an ordinary man like you

But your prayer and your miracles he is the number one most prayed for person on earth what gives??

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 12:18 PM
Oh, I agree. I just think Atheists are special kind of asshole. It takes a special kind of asshole to preach about your non beliefs.

The typical Atheist just wants Christians to quit trying to control public policy and force everyone else to live by Christian ideals. To say otherwise is to imply that all Christians are Branch Davidians.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 12:23 PM
Out of those 46 million abortions, do you believe all of them were atheists?

The Atheists I know are more concerned for their fellow human beings than most, precisely because they don't believe there is some magical invisible man that will do it for them.

nstygma
04-01-2009, 12:24 PM
But your prayer and your miracles he is the number one most prayed for person on earth what gives??who is the pope? you act like he's someone special. anyway, praying contrary to God's will doesn't tend to produce much.

Out of those 46 million abortions, do you believe all of them were atheists?i haven't had a chance any of them, so i don't know.

nstygma
04-01-2009, 12:26 PM
The Atheists I know are more concerned for their fellow human beings than most, precisely because they don't believe there is some magical invisible man that will do it for them.so you see why man-made religion is junk

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 12:27 PM
so you see why man-made religion is junk

All object religions are man-made.

That isn't a statement of fact about the existence or non-existence of a God.

Cannibal
04-01-2009, 12:28 PM
I have been on a plane that had some really rough turbulence, bad enough that quite a few people on the plane screamed more than once. I guarantee that at least 80% or more of them were religious. I've always wondered why they screamed. Shouldn't they have been cheering in happyness with the knowledge that they'd be going to heaven? Wouldn't they also be aware that their families will be happy they are going to heaven?

nstygma
04-01-2009, 12:34 PM
All object religions are man-made.

That isn't a statement of fact about the existence or non-existence of a God.i think i agree, although i am a bit ignorant on the exact meaning.

nstygma
04-01-2009, 12:34 PM
I have been on a plane that had some really rough turbulence, bad enough that quite a few people on the plane screamed more than once. I guarantee that at least 80% or more of them were religious. I've always wondered why they screamed. Shouldn't they have been cheering in happyness with the knowledge that they'd be going to heaven? Wouldn't they also be aware that their families will be happy they are going to heaven?you can be religious and go to hell.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 12:38 PM
i think i agree, although i am a bit ignorant on the exact meaning.

Most world religions are object religions. There is a God or group of gods or some entity that is to be worshiped. That entity's will must be followed, as expressed by men more in tune with that god than you and/or some religious text or you're in eternal deep shit.

The other classification would be a subject religion, Buddhism is the only example of one that I can think of. In Buddhism there is not god, no heaven, no hell. They do have some teaching aids that speak of things like seven levels of being, reincarnation, etc, but really it all boils down (very roughly) to "there is nothing and we don't exist".

Chief Faithful
04-01-2009, 12:52 PM
Holy Crap! Just because you have the numbers to do something doesn't make you right.

Holy Crap! The arguement was comparing apples to oranges. One bad person with no followers does not equal one bad person with millions of followers. I wasn't defending anything.

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 12:54 PM
The typical Atheist just wants Christians to quit trying to control public policy and force everyone else to live by Christian ideals. To say otherwise is to imply that all Christians are Branch Davidians.

Removing Christmas from all public forums will eventually save us all, won't it? Can't you see the hypocrisy? Atheists forcing their brand of beliefs (or non beliefs) on us is just as bad as any zealot preaching from the podium.

Chief Henry
04-01-2009, 12:59 PM
But your prayer and your miracles he is the number one most prayed for person on earth what gives??

It is ? How would you know ? Just wondering.

Chief Henry
04-01-2009, 01:02 PM
I have been on a plane that had some really rough turbulence, bad enough that quite a few people on the plane screamed more than once. I guarantee that at least 80% or more of them were religious. I've always wondered why they screamed. Shouldn't they have been cheering in happyness with the knowledge that they'd be going to heaven? Wouldn't they also be aware that their families will be happy they are going to heaven?

My guess those who you speak of on the plane all want to go to heaven - but they didn't want to go at that particular time. I would think that would be reasonable to understand, since they have loved ones on earth too.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:29 PM
Removing Christmas from all public forums will eventually save us all, won't it? Can't you see the hypocrisy? Atheists forcing their brand of beliefs (or non beliefs) on us is just as bad as any zealot preaching from the podium.

No sane Atheist is worried about a Christmas tree at Wal-mart. What they're bitching about are Christian specific laws. Gays can't marry, for example. Two men getting married cannot be construed in any way, shape, or form to violate YOUR Constitutional rights, but Christians feel compelled to stop it.

I'm all for people running about trying to reason with people on an individual basis. I'm not for blanket laws keeping large groups of people from doing something that doesn't affect anyone else's rights to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:30 PM
My guess those who you speak of on the plane all want to go to heaven - but they didn't want to go at that particular time. I would think that would be reasonable to understand, since they have loved ones on earth too.

They have loved ones in Heaven as well. Also, you're going to spend eternity in Heaven, so in the grand scheme of things what is another fifteen or twenty years here on Earth?

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 01:54 PM
No sane Atheist is worried about a Christmas tree at Wal-mart. What they're bitching about are Christian specific laws. Gays can't marry, for example. Two men getting married cannot be construed in any way, shape, or form to violate YOUR Constitutional rights, but Christians feel compelled to stop it.

I'm all for people running about trying to reason with people on an individual basis. I'm not for blanket laws keeping large groups of people from doing something that doesn't affect anyone else's rights to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

Good, as long as you Atheists leave Christmas alone, there won't be any need to start a war with you. Keep fucking with it though, and bam, there will be hell to pay.

:D

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:54 PM
Good, as long as you Atheists leave Christmas alone, there won't be any need to start a war with you. Keep fucking with it though, and bam, there will be hell to pay.

:D

:eek:

petegz28
04-01-2009, 01:58 PM
satan does counterfeit stuff to deceive people. do you ever wonder why witch doctors, etc, have some real results?


lol, you would never beleive most of the things i know.

Horseshit.

petegz28
04-01-2009, 02:00 PM
Good, as long as you Atheists leave Christmas alone, there won't be any need to start a war with you. Keep ****ing with it though, and bam, there will be hell to pay.

:D

Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday. They had to rip it off from the fucking Pagans.

Why people get so uptight about a hollow-message holiday is beyond me? I presume though it is because most have no fucking clue where Christmas really started?

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 02:10 PM
Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday. They had to rip it off from the ****ing Pagans.

Why people get so uptight about a hollow-message holiday is beyond me? I presume though it is because most have no ****ing clue where Christmas really started?

Hey jerk off, don't start with the I don't know what Christmas is. Christmas to me, is what I want it to fucking be, nothing more, nothing less.

Do you have Children? Do you have a family at all?

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 02:13 PM
p.s. Why do people care if others celebrate Christmas? For any reason? I know the answer. Because they belong to that special group of assholes!

Fish
04-01-2009, 02:22 PM
Hey jerk off, don't start with the I don't know what Christmas is. Christmas to me, is what I want it to ****ing be, nothing more, nothing less.

Good, as long as you Atheists leave Christmas alone, there won't be any need to start a war with you. Keep ****ing with it though, and bam, there will be hell to pay.

These 2 quotes from you are a bit hypocritical.... Christmas is what you want it to fucking be, but if atheists take that mindset, there will be war? Why do you get to have Christmas the way you want it to be, but atheists do not?

Chief Henry
04-01-2009, 02:28 PM
These 2 quotes from you are a bit hypocritical.... Christmas is what you want it to ****ing be, but if atheists take that mindset, there will be war? Why do you get to have Christmas the way you want it to be, but atheists do not?

Huh ? Do atheists celebrate Christmas ?

KC native
04-01-2009, 02:28 PM
p.s. Why do people care if others celebrate Christmas? For any reason? I know the answer. Because they belong to that special group of assholes!

We don't care if you celebrate Christmas. We just don't want to walk into government buildings and see Christmas crap plastered everywhere. We don't want our kids going to public school and being made to sing religious songs and taught a religion's concepts that we don't believe in. If private business want to celebrate Christmas I don't give a rat's ass because they're a private entity.

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 02:33 PM
These 2 quotes from you are a bit hypocritical.... Christmas is what you want it to ****ing be, but if atheists take that mindset, there will be war? Why do you get to have Christmas the way you want it to be, but atheists do not?

Lighten up, you Godless heathen. I put a little smiley on the bottom of the post. It was meant to be sarcastic but I see Atheists must of had to hand over their sense of humors too.

Seriously, though. Christmas doesn't have to be about religion. To some it's a family holiday.

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 02:40 PM
We don't care if you celebrate Christmas. We just don't want to walk into government buildings and see Christmas crap plastered everywhere. We don't want our kids going to public school and being made to sing religious songs and taught a religion's concepts that we don't believe in. If private business want to celebrate Christmas I don't give a rat's ass because they're a private entity.

I know what you mean. When my 4 year old was taught 'Here's comes Santa Claus' at preschool, I nearly shit a brick. :rolleyes:

Oh and don't get me started about Frosty the snow man and Rudolph the red nosed rain deer. We all know they are metaphors for Jesus, Mary and Joseph and the North Pole is really Bethlehem.

kaplin42
04-01-2009, 02:40 PM
p.s. Why do people care if others celebrate Christmas? For any reason? I know the answer. Because they belong to that special group of assholes!


All though xmas is my least favorite holiday, it has nothing to do with religion as to why I dislike it so much. I used to love it, I never celebrated the Christian or the Pagan reason of the day, but I loved the idea that people were just a little nicer, a little more respectful on that day, and that time of year.

Lately though, the last several years, xmas has been a time of greed, and nastyness. People cussng eachother out over parking spaces, getting killed while waiting in line to get tha special gift, and just generally being assholes.

The idea of what it was when I was a kid is what made it great, now that that sentiment is practically gone, I could do with out it. It's so PC now, whether to have displays or not, what to buy and who to buy for, it just generally sucks.

KC native
04-01-2009, 02:42 PM
I know what you mean. When my 4 year old was taught 'Here's comes Santa Claus' at preschool, I nearly shit a brick. :rolleyes:

Oh and don't get me started about Frosty the snow man and Rudolph the red nosed rain deer. We all know they are metaphors for Jesus, Mary and Joseph and the North Pole is really Bethlehem.

And you call athiests assholes? Wow!

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 02:43 PM
All though xmas is my least favorite holiday, it has nothing to do with religion as to why I dislike it so much. I used to love it, I never celebrated the Christian or the Pagan reason of the day, but I loved the idea that people were just a little nicer, a little more respectful on that day, and that time of year.

Lately though, the last several years, xmas has been a time of greed, and nastyness. People cussng eachother out over parking spaces, getting killed while waiting in line to get tha special gift, and just generally being assholes.

The idea of what it was when I was a kid is what made it great, now that that sentiment is practically gone, I could do with out it. It's so PC now, whether to have displays or not, what to buy and who to buy for, it just generally sucks.


I agree with you. I have children, so I try my best so they can enjoy it.

Chief Faithful
04-01-2009, 02:44 PM
Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday. They had to rip it off from the ****ing Pagans.



What a tired threadbare argument. Symbols are what people make them to be.

For example, the Confederate Battle flag did not start as a symbol of slavery, but people post war made it that way so now it is one of the most protested symbols in this country.

Same with Christmas, it is a symbolic Christian holiday and has been since before the founding of this country. And no matter what Atheists think is appropriate Christians are not done with the holiday and plan on keeping it.

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 02:45 PM
We don't care if you celebrate Christmas. We just don't want to walk into government buildings and see Christmas crap plastered everywhere. We don't want our kids going to public school and being made to sing religious songs and taught a religion's concepts that we don't believe in. If private business want to celebrate Christmas I don't give a rat's ass because they're a private entity.

Would you be OK if you went into a local government center and saw Christmas crap that wasn't of the religious variety?

Chief Faithful
04-01-2009, 02:49 PM
All though xmas is my least favorite holiday, it has nothing to do with religion as to why I dislike it so much. I used to love it, I never celebrated the Christian or the Pagan reason of the day, but I loved the idea that people were just a little nicer, a little more respectful on that day, and that time of year.

Lately though, the last several years, xmas has been a time of greed, and nastyness. People cussng eachother out over parking spaces, getting killed while waiting in line to get tha special gift, and just generally being assholes.

The idea of what it was when I was a kid is what made it great, now that that sentiment is practically gone, I could do with out it. It's so PC now, whether to have displays or not, what to buy and who to buy for, it just generally sucks.


I used to feel the same way about losing its meaning, but through the years I've noticed many people are reminded that Christ was about love of God and neighbor. For that reason alone I've started to enjoy it again. I've learned there is a beautiful baby alive and well in that bath water.

It is all a matter of what you chose to focus on.

kaplin42
04-01-2009, 02:50 PM
What a tired threadbare argument. Symbols are what people make them to be.

For example, the Confederate Battle flag did not start as a symbol of slavery, but people post war made it that way so now it is one of the most protested symbols in this country.

Same with Christmas, it is a symbolic Christian holiday and has been since before the founding of this country. And no matter what Atheists think is appropriate Christians are not done with the holiday and plan on keeping it.


Except that Christmas was put on the Dec. 25th to help cover up a Pagan holiday to help Christianity take over and to help people forget about their pagan gods.

Your "tired argument" comment is in complete disregard of facts.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 02:52 PM
Huh ? Do atheists celebrate Christmas ?

Those that do don't celebrate it as Christians do.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 02:53 PM
I know what you mean. When my 4 year old was taught 'Here's comes Santa Claus' at preschool, I nearly shit a brick. :rolleyes:

Oh and don't get me started about Frosty the snow man and Rudolph the red nosed rain deer. We all know they are metaphors for Jesus, Mary and Joseph and the North Pole is really Bethlehem.

So you won't sweat it when your kids come home singing Jewish and Islamic hymns?

Garcia Bronco
04-01-2009, 02:55 PM
Atheism is just as much a religion as Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, and so on.

KC native
04-01-2009, 02:57 PM
Would you be OK if you went into a local government center and saw Christmas crap that wasn't of the religious variety?

Only if it's completely devoid of religious content. Other than that no.

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 02:58 PM
So you won't sweat it when your kids come home singing Jewish and Islamic hymns?

My kids don't come home singing Christian hymns, why would they sing Jewish or Islamic hymns.

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 03:01 PM
Only if it's completely devoid of religious content. Other than that no.

I'm cool with that.

Here is where the smart ass in me would usually say (as long as you don't fuck with Santa). But you all have no sense of humor and would take it as a threat.

Amnorix
04-01-2009, 03:34 PM
No sane Atheist is worried about a Christmas tree at Wal-mart. What they're bitching about are Christian specific laws. Gays can't marry, for example. Two men getting married cannot be construed in any way, shape, or form to violate YOUR Constitutional rights, but Christians feel compelled to stop it.

I'm all for people running about trying to reason with people on an individual basis. I'm not for blanket laws keeping large groups of people from doing something that doesn't affect anyone else's rights to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

Wow. I'm in agreement with nearly everything you've said on this thread.

It ain't often I can say that! :D

petegz28
04-01-2009, 03:40 PM
What a tired threadbare argument. Symbols are what people make them to be.

For example, the Confederate Battle flag did not start as a symbol of slavery, but people post war made it that way so now it is one of the most protested symbols in this country.

Same with Christmas, it is a symbolic Christian holiday and has been since before the founding of this country. And no matter what Atheists think is appropriate Christians are not done with the holiday and plan on keeping it.

Except some actually understand where Christmas came from and how it was morphed.

They stole it and made it their own.

Duck Dog
04-01-2009, 03:53 PM
Except some actually understand where Christmas came from and how it was morphed.

They stole it and made it their own.

Do you celebrate Christmas in any form? I'm just curious as to why so many people are ready to cut Kris Kringle's throat.

Ya know what? I don't think Jesus arose from the dead and pushed open a huge rock and walked from his tomb. But I still enjoy hiding Easter eggs so my daughters can find them.

Lighten up and celebrate these holidays for whatever they mean to you. If they don't mean jack shit, fine, leave the rest of us alone.

ClevelandBronco
04-01-2009, 04:06 PM
The typical Atheist just wants Christians to quit trying to control public policy and force everyone else to live by Christian ideals. To say otherwise is to imply that all Christians are Branch Davidians.

There are atheists and there are evangelical atheists.

I was of the evangelical variety. I needed to spread the word.

It appears as if you have a similar mission.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 05:33 PM
There are atheists and there are evangelical atheists.

I was of the evangelical variety. I needed to spread the word.

It appears as if you have a similar mission.

I'm an evangelical agnostic, thank you. :)

petegz28
04-01-2009, 07:28 PM
Do you celebrate Christmas in any form? I'm just curious as to why so many people are ready to cut Kris Kringle's throat.

Ya know what? I don't think Jesus arose from the dead and pushed open a huge rock and walked from his tomb. But I still enjoy hiding Easter eggs so my daughters can find them.

Lighten up and celebrate these holidays for whatever they mean to you. If they don't mean jack shit, fine, leave the rest of us alone.

I think you are taking it the wrong way. I celebrate Christmas but not for the same reasons most people do.

Easter actually started prior to Jesus as well. There is not 1 Christian holiday that is not rooted in Paganism.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 07:39 PM
What about Epiphany?

petegz28
04-01-2009, 07:51 PM
What about Epiphany?

What about it? I think and I am rusty on this...but even the visiting of the Magi existed in prior Pagan tales.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 07:55 PM
What are the pagan roots of Epiphany?

petegz28
04-01-2009, 08:00 PM
What are the pagan roots of Epiphany?

The ancient Egyptians observed winter solstice on January 6, and they believed that the Nile River acquired miraculous powers at this time. Some texts even say the Nile turned into wine, (to the great delight of the fish, no doubt!). The Christians, who had in the first century experienced the power of Jesus directly in His Word and wonders, and who now experienced the power of Jesus in the liturgy, would quite naturally seek to squelch pagan superstition by celebrating Epiphany in opposition, and construct the feast accordingly.

http://www.georgiabulletin.org/local/1978/01/05/b/

And that comes from a Catholic Newspaper as I understand it.

petegz28
04-01-2009, 08:05 PM
The irony of Epiphany is the fact that Dec 25th was picked for reasons other than it being the time of birth of Jesus. As I understand it, if anything, Jesus was born around July, not December. So how Jan. 6th worked it's way into Christiaity other than what the link I gave you describes, I do not know.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 08:05 PM
That might explain why they celebrated it on that day, but are there no pagan roots for the holiday itself?

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 08:06 PM
The irony of Epiphany is the fact that Dec 25th was picked for reasons other than it being the time of birth of Jesus. As I understand it, if anything, Jesus was born around July, not December.

Why July?

petegz28
04-01-2009, 08:08 PM
Why July?

Not sure. My brother majored in antropology and all that religous stuff in college. That is what he tells me. I never really got into detail on it with him but I will ask him next time we get into these discussions.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 08:11 PM
I've heard spring time, because that's supposedly when the shepherds were out in the field and slept out with them. I don't know...

petegz28
04-01-2009, 08:11 PM
That might explain why they celebrated it on that day, but are there no pagan roots for the holiday itself?

Well yes there was. If you read the text I gave you, Jan 6 was picked to bascially override a day of Pagan Celebration.

It all comes down to what you believe about Christianity. I myself believe the Church purposely picked specific dates for their celebration to cancel out the Paganism of it all.

So in essence, Jan 6 was celebrated bby cultures who were not Christian. So as with Christmas, you pick that day, create a Christian Holiday for it, and basically hi-jack it for lack of a better phrase.

I mean, common sense has to make you question why the dates of Christian Holidays were all celebrated for one reason or another prior to Christianity?

Hardly a coincidence in my opinion.

petegz28
04-01-2009, 08:13 PM
I've heard spring time, because that's supposedly when the shepherds were out in the field and slept out with them. I don't know...

Well that may be. Either way, we pretty much know for a fact it was not Dec. 25th. Yet that date was chosen by the church for reasons of gaining power and converting non-Christians. IMO.

Dave Lane
04-01-2009, 08:14 PM
who is the pope? you act like he's someone special. anyway, praying contrary to God's will doesn't tend to produce much.

.

Then why bother? I mean if its gods will and all why pray? Why not just wait for his will to manifest itself.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 08:20 PM
Well yes there was. If you read the text I gave you, Jan 6 was picked to bascially override a day of Pagan Celebration.

It all comes down to what you believe about Christianity. I myself believe the Church purposely picked specific dates for their celebration to cancel out the Paganism of it all.

So in essence, Jan 6 was celebrated bby cultures who were not Christian. So as with Christmas, you pick that day, create a Christian Holiday for it, and basically hi-jack it for lack of a better phrase.

I mean, common sense has to make you question why the dates of Christian Holidays were all celebrated for one reason or another prior to Christianity?

Hardly a coincidence in my opinion.

Of course. New Christians were probably just going to celebrate Wnter Solitice no matter, so people in charge were just like "well, hell, let's call that Epiphany and make them come to church."

But to your knowledge there is no pagan underlying to celebrating Epiphany? For instance, Remus didn't have 3 kings come to his birth or anything?

Dave Lane
04-01-2009, 08:25 PM
Wow. I'm in agreement with nearly everything you've said on this thread.

It ain't often I can say that! :D

I know I repped him pretty odd day!

petegz28
04-01-2009, 08:25 PM
Of course. New Christians were probably just going to celebrate Wnter Solitice no matter, so people in charge were just like "well, hell, let's call that Epiphany and make them come to church."

But to your knowledge there is no pagan underlying to celebrating Epiphany? For instance, Remus didn't have 3 kings come to his birth or anything?

Did you not read or are you just ignoring the test of the link?

The Christians, who had in the first century experienced the power of Jesus directly in His Word and wonders, and who now experienced the power of Jesus in the liturgy, would quite naturally seek to squelch pagan superstition by celebrating Epiphany in opposition, and construct the feast accordingly.

In other words they manufactured it and stuck their own label on it.

Amnorix
04-01-2009, 08:31 PM
Except some actually understand where Christmas came from and how it was morphed.

They stole it and made it their own.

There is really darn little about Christianity that is new. Most of the concepts can be found in the major religions that pre-dated it, and certainly most of the religiously significant dates were the high holy days of the other religions.

This, of course, doesn't make it a bad religion at all. Just one that, perhaps, did a better job of seizing opportunities to become a "big tent". :D

petegz28
04-01-2009, 08:32 PM
There is really darn little about Christianity that is new. Most of the concepts can be found in the major religions that pre-dated it, and certainly most of the religiously significant dates were the high holy days of the other religions.

This, of course, doesn't make it a bad religion at all. Just one that, perhaps, did a better job of seizing opportunities to become a "big tent". :D

I agree... I shouldn;t come off as trying to make it sound like a bad religion.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 08:36 PM
Did you not read or are you just ignoring the test of the link?

In other words they manufactured it and stuck their own label on it.

You don't understand what I'm saying.

Epiphany - when the magi came to visit baby Jesus. What are the pagan origins? All you're telling me is that it was a Christian holiday.

petegz28
04-01-2009, 08:42 PM
You don't understand what I'm saying.

Epiphany - when the magi came to visit baby Jesus. What are the pagan origins? All you're telling me is that it was a Christian holiday.

I understand perfectly. What I am trying to say to you is it is a manufactured holiday meant to replace a holiday celebrated by Pagans. In other words, if Pagans never celebrated anything in Jan 6th, you would not have a need for the creation of Epiphany.

Much the same way the Pagans didn't celebrate Christmas because of the birth of Jesus. It wasn't even called Christmas. I think you get the picture.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 08:54 PM
I understand perfectly. What I am trying to say to you is it is a manufactured holiday meant to replace a holiday celebrated by Pagans. In other words, if Pagans never celebrated anything in Jan 6th, you would not have a need for the creation of Epiphany.

Of course it's manufactured, but what are the origins? From the Bible?

petegz28
04-01-2009, 08:57 PM
Of course it's manufactured, but what are the origins? From the Bible?

Ok, play this little game all you want. The origins of "Christmas" are from the Bible too. But we already have covered that it was a Pagan holiday prior to Christianity.


The fact of the matter is, had there been no Pagan celebration for anything on Jan 6, you probably would never have had the creation of Epiphany.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 09:02 PM
All I'm wondering is if in pagan myths, there was a story like the visit from the magi. This isn't a game.

petegz28
04-01-2009, 09:09 PM
All I'm wondering is if in pagan myths, there was a story like the visit from the magi. This isn't a game.

Actually I think there was. Take that for what it is worth. That being said it is something I will try to look up over the next couple days.

petegz28
04-01-2009, 09:21 PM
All I'm wondering is if in pagan myths, there was a story like the visit from the magi. This isn't a game.

Next Matthew tells us the tallest story in the whole of this tissue of legends. These wise men, led by a star which nobody sees but themselves, and which moves in such a way as to guide them across country -- one apologist suggests that it was a meteorite (which moves at the rate of about a hundred miles a second!) -- arrive at Jerusalem and lose the scent. The divine guidance then acts in a way which certainly perplexes the mere human mind. The sages are moved to go and tell King Herod that a new "King of the Jews" has been born somewhere; and Herod, in a fury, and believing the statement with childish credulity, orders the murder of all the children in Bethlehem and the entire region under the age of two and a half years. The little Almighty is taken, presumably on donkey-back, hundreds of miles across the desert, to get out of the way, and let the innocent suffer. Miracles and apparitions crowd the narrative; but the simple miracle of changing the king's heart and sparing the children occurs to nobody.

The Christian cannot expect a non-Christian to write politely about such things as this. What we may more profitably do, however, is to remind him that just such a massacre and hiding of a child of great promise from the wrath of a king is one of the oldest themes in mythology. Turn to Exodus (i, 15-22):

And the King of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives. ... And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him. ...

And so Moses was (like Sargon of Babylon thousands of years before) hidden in an ark of bulrushes on the river. Herodotus, the Greek historian, tells us that King Cyrus of Persia had similarly to be hidden away at birth from a jealous king; and every Jew knew the story of Cyrus. Suetonius, the Roman historian, gives a similar legend about the birth of the Emperor Augustus. But one could fill whole pages with legends of new-born gods and mortals of great promise thus pursued by reigning monarchs, and we will return to the subject later. The wholesale "massacre" alone is peculiar to the Jesus-story; and that horrible detail is enough of itself to damn it. No Jewish writer ever heard of the horror.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_14.html


This I found I thought I would pass onto you.

Dr. Van Halen
04-01-2009, 10:02 PM
All I'm wondering is if in pagan myths, there was a story like the visit from the magi. This isn't a game.

I remember reading something about how Christmas was originally celebrated on January 6th. It was the eastern church that came up with that (Syria, Turkey?), so if there was an pagan holiday-swiping it would be from a Middle Eastern pre-Islamic tradition (of which I know nothing).

The Roman Christians changed it to Dec. 25. The official story has to do with calculating Jesus' death day (March 25) and then, going with the contemporary tradition that you are conceived on the same day of the year that you die (so, again, March 25), then forwarding 9 months ... to December 25! Ta-da!

Dave Lane
04-02-2009, 07:44 AM
You don't understand what I'm saying.

Epiphany - when the magi came to visit baby Jesus. What are the pagan origins? All you're telling me is that it was a Christian holiday.

There's several religions that had three wise men visit the new "god". Pretty standard stuff.

Dave Lane
04-02-2009, 07:47 AM
I remember reading something about how Christmas was originally celebrated on January 6th. It was the eastern church that came up with that (Syria, Turkey?), so if there was an pagan holiday-swiping it would be from a Middle Eastern pre-Islamic tradition (of which I know nothing).

The Roman Christians changed it to Dec. 25. The official story has to do with calculating Jesus' death day (March 25) and then, going with the contemporary tradition that you are conceived on the same day of the year that you die (so, again, March 25), then forwarding 9 months ... to December 25! Ta-da!

Nope it was the festival day of Apollonius I believe that the Romans worshiped and gave out gifts so the christians swiped that day and made it jesus's birthday.

SLAG
04-02-2009, 09:30 AM
For those that think Christmas is a Pagan Holiday - here is the proper argument against it:
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4427963

now on the topic of Atheists I offer this Video:

<object width="480" height="295"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Xe5kVw9JsYI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Xe5kVw9JsYI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="295"></embed></object>

Dr. Van Halen
04-02-2009, 09:37 AM
Nope it was the festival day of Apollonius I believe that the Romans worshiped and gave out gifts so the christians swiped that day and made it jesus's birthday.

Hmm, well, I'm pretty sure what I said was correct.

Apollonius of Tyana? Jesus' high school rival? Jesus beat Apollonius out for the last spot on the basketball team, and Apollonius never forgave him.

Are you saying that the feast of Apollonius was Jan. 6? I didn't see that anywhere. I also didn't see anything about giving gifts. I did, however, see that Apollonius had eee ess pee!

Simplex3
04-02-2009, 12:34 PM
Well that may be. Either way, we pretty much know for a fact it was not Dec. 25th. Yet that date was chosen by the church for reasons of gaining power and converting non-Christians. IMO.

As Christians would take over pagan tribes they would incorporate some of the pagan holidays/customs/stories to help assimilate them into the culture.

Bowser
04-02-2009, 12:35 PM
For those that think Christmas is a Pagan Holiday - here is the proper argument against it:
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4427963

now on the topic of Atheists I offer this Video:

<object width="480" height="295"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Xe5kVw9JsYI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Xe5kVw9JsYI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="295"></embed></object>

That was a waste of seven minutes.

Jenson71
04-02-2009, 12:43 PM
Nonsense. That was a clear, well-reasoned, articulate, and intelligent response. The proof is not entirely proof, how can we really say that everyone naturally has a desire for God without it becoming opinion, I wonder. But the last minute was a fantastic attack on materialism.

petegz28
04-02-2009, 01:31 PM
As Christians would take over pagan tribes they would incorporate some of the pagan holidays/customs/stories to help assimilate them into the culture.

Yes, I know. It was a common practice.

petegz28
04-02-2009, 01:40 PM
That was a waste of seven minutes.

I thought this was a well stated argument. Granted what Father Barron and I would disagree on is "what\who is God", he makes a very intelligent argument.

petegz28
04-02-2009, 01:42 PM
For those that think Christmas is a Pagan Holiday - here is the proper argument against it:
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4427963



I do not buy this argument that Dec 25th was picked out of honest intention. In fact. I call it pure hooey! HOOEY I SAY!

KC native
04-02-2009, 01:48 PM
I do not buy this argument that Dec 25th was picked out of honest intention. In fact. I call it pure hooey! HOOEY I SAY!

Look up Saturnalia. It was the Roman festival that ended on December 25th.

SLAG
04-02-2009, 01:51 PM
Look up Saturnalia. It was the Roman festival that ended on December 25th.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4427963

KC native
04-02-2009, 01:54 PM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4427963

So, where does that article address Saturnalia which was celebrated as Christianity started to take hold amongst the Romans?

petegz28
04-02-2009, 01:55 PM
Look up Saturnalia. It was the Roman festival that ended on December 25th.

Saturnalia was a public festival in Rome. Originally celebrated for a day, on December 17th, popularity grew it to week-long extravaganza, ending on the 25th. Efforts to shorten the celebration were unsuccessful. Augustus tried to reduce it to three days, and Caligula to five.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia


And from what I read, it had nothing to do with Jesus being born.

But rahter intersting to note:

Saturnalia's relation to Christmas
Main article: Christmas
Christians in the fourth century assigned December 25 (the Winter Solstice on the Julian calendar[dubious – discuss]) as Christ's birthday (and thus Christmas) because pagans already observed this day as a holiday. As the dates of Saturnalia are not precisely coincident with Christmas, a more refined argument is that Christmas was set on the feast of Sol Invictus, which was on December 25, and which had supplanted Saturnalia. However, with many of the traditions of Saturnalia incorporated into Sol Invictus, it is possible that some of those traditions — such as the exchanging of gifts — were also carried forward as a part of the Christian holiday.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-02-2009, 01:56 PM
Look up Saturnalia. It was the Roman festival that ended on December 25th.

This is correct, also was the date that celebrated the fallen god tammusz. This is the exact reason that as a Christian I do NOT celebrate Christmas or Ishtar(Easter).

petegz28
04-02-2009, 02:00 PM
This is correct, also was the date that celebrated the fallen god tammusz. This is the exact reason that as a Christian I do NOT celebrate Christmas or Ishtar(Easter).


Interesting to hear you say such. Props to you for understanding your religion.

Adept Havelock
04-02-2009, 03:37 PM
This isn't a game.

Really? It sure seems like it.

I do not buy this argument that Dec 25th was picked out of honest intention. In fact. I call it pure hooey! HOOEY I SAY!

I believe the modern terminology is that the holiday was "Re-Branded".

In other words, the same old s**t in a new and improved box.

chasedude
04-02-2009, 09:07 PM
I believe the modern terminology is that the holiday was "Re-Branded".

In other words, the same old s**t in a new and improved box.

I hadn't realized so many different deities have used "Dec 25th" as a holy day until I watched Maher's Religulous. It was quite insightful in how many different religions have used the same things.

irishjayhawk
04-02-2009, 09:24 PM
I only posted once in a thread like this. I think that's a record for me, but I'm bored.

Removing Christmas from all public forums will eventually save us all, won't it? Can't you see the hypocrisy? Atheists forcing their brand of beliefs (or non beliefs) on us is just as bad as any zealot preaching from the podium.

To the contrary, atheists merely want equality on displays on government or public property. Last year Washington state's snafu was a great example. They allowed anyone to post a religious icon on their property. They got numerous requests - so many they had to shut it down. However, it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster that riled many Christians up. What was the point?

You can't show favor to one religion (legal definition) over another. So, anything goes.

It's not about religion. It's about the separation of religion and state.

Atheism is just as much a religion as Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, and so on.

Only in as legal definition. Otherwise they are worlds apart.

irishjayhawk
04-02-2009, 09:25 PM
I hadn't realized so many different deities have used "Dec 25th" as a holy day until I watched Maher's Religulous. It was quite insightful in how many different religions have used the same things.

"Virgin births" and "resurrections" are even more prevalent.

chasedude
04-02-2009, 11:04 PM
"Virgin births" and "resurrections" are even more prevalent.

Yup, noticed that too

petegz28
04-02-2009, 11:30 PM
"Virgin births" and "resurrections" are even more prevalent.

just about everything in the story of Jesus had happened prior too....

Psyko Tek
04-02-2009, 11:36 PM
Conversly, if and when stem cell research develops cures for various death dealing diseases, will Christians accept the cure, or will they stand by their religious principles of "life" and let god take them into heaven?

thew religious principles of life are only for fetuses, (fetusi?sp) killing or saving them after they are born has nothing to do with that argument

Jenson71
04-03-2009, 01:09 AM
Really? It sure seems like it.

No, that was an honest question.

But it is fun watching "an outsider" get so giddy about the relationship between pagan rituals and Christianity, as if it holds the key to all further understanding of the religion (See the similarities!! Haha!! You're actually pagans!) Good Lord, does anyone think this is a new revelation? Oh shit, we've only been studying this for about 1800 years. And then when you press pete, he gets so defensive (I TOLD YOU, THEY ARE THE SAME!! YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR RELIGION AS WELL AS I DO, EXCEPT FOR THE GUY WHO DOESN'T CELELBRATE CHRISTMAS -- NOW THERE'S A THINKING MAN'S CHRISTIAN) Listen people, celebrate Christmas. You're not celebrating Winter when you do so. You're not worshipping the devil by decorating the tree. You're not a pagan. You're a Christian, and Christmas is celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. That is what Christmas means now, and that's what Christmas meant when they first started celebrating it.

For him, the focal point is this: the Church was a corrupt band of thieves who manipulated information to gain power. Hey Dan Brown, looking for a sequel? It's elementary and shallow, but it works because many think that's exactly what the Church, and all religions, do today. Manipulate and corrupt, manipulate and corrupt. Religious leaders are the perfect thieving, power hungry bands of corruption. It's a wonderful and compelling story. The irony is so edgy -- get it, a religious person who is actually bad.

BWillie
04-03-2009, 01:18 AM
you are correct about people and their attitudes. being "religious" is often worse than being not. i think they call it self-righteousness or something like that. however, about the killing millions of people... do you think 46 million abortions yearly count for anything? (not trying to switch focus to that though)

I'm agnostic, I'm against abortion. I think I'm one of the few. I just don't see how getting rid of your own just because you don't want it can be the right thing to do. At the same token, I get pissed off at the poor 17 year old chicks who just keep their baby just BECAUSE. There is such thing called f*cking adoption.

irishjayhawk
04-03-2009, 06:59 AM
No, that was an honest question.

But it is fun watching "an outsider" get so giddy about the relationship between pagan rituals and Christianity, as if it holds the key to all further understanding of the religion (See the similarities!! Haha!! You're actually pagans!) Good Lord, does anyone think this is a new revelation? Oh shit, we've only been studying this for about 1800 years. And then when you press pete, he gets so defensive (I TOLD YOU, THEY ARE THE SAME!! YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR RELIGION AS WELL AS I DO, EXCEPT FOR THE GUY WHO DOESN'T CELELBRATE CHRISTMAS -- NOW THERE'S A THINKING MAN'S CHRISTIAN) Listen people, celebrate Christmas. You're not celebrating Winter when you do so. You're not worshipping the devil by decorating the tree. You're not a pagan. You're a Christian, and Christmas is celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. That is what Christmas means now, and that's what Christmas meant when they first started celebrating it.

For him, the focal point is this: the Church was a corrupt band of thieves who manipulated information to gain power. Hey Dan Brown, looking for a sequel? It's elementary and shallow, but it works because many think that's exactly what the Church, and all religions, do today. Manipulate and corrupt, manipulate and corrupt. Religious leaders are the perfect thieving, power hungry bands of corruption. It's a wonderful and compelling story. The irony is so edgy -- get it, a religious person who is actually bad.

I have to disagree with one minor thing. I'd say that in today's world, Christmas isn't so much Jesus as it is Santa; birth as it is gifts; religious as it is commercialized.

I'm agnostic, I'm against abortion. I think I'm one of the few. I just don't see how getting rid of your own just because you don't want it can be the right thing to do. At the same token, I get pissed off at the poor 17 year old chicks who just keep their baby just BECAUSE. There is such thing called f*cking adoption.

I'm sorta in the same boat. I personally think that any time in the first three months is an okay time to terminate. After that, the question looms as to what exactly you were thinking 3 months in. That is, how can you go six months pregnant and one day wake up and not want it (life threatening situations aside). Of course, I'm also not in the camp that fetuses are "humans."

stevieray
04-03-2009, 07:11 AM
Of course people are deluded, that's why they need to start threads like these every month. A negative conviction doesn't carry much weight.

petegz28
04-03-2009, 08:05 AM
No, that was an honest question.

But it is fun watching "an outsider" get so giddy about the relationship between pagan rituals and Christianity, as if it holds the key to all further understanding of the religion (See the similarities!! Haha!! You're actually pagans!) Good Lord, does anyone think this is a new revelation? Oh shit, we've only been studying this for about 1800 years. And then when you press pete, he gets so defensive (I TOLD YOU, THEY ARE THE SAME!! YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR RELIGION AS WELL AS I DO, EXCEPT FOR THE GUY WHO DOESN'T CELELBRATE CHRISTMAS -- NOW THERE'S A THINKING MAN'S CHRISTIAN) Listen people, celebrate Christmas. You're not celebrating Winter when you do so. You're not worshipping the devil by decorating the tree. You're not a pagan. You're a Christian, and Christmas is celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. That is what Christmas means now, and that's what Christmas meant when they first started celebrating it.

For him, the focal point is this: the Church was a corrupt band of thieves who manipulated information to gain power. Hey Dan Brown, looking for a sequel? It's elementary and shallow, but it works because many think that's exactly what the Church, and all religions, do today. Manipulate and corrupt, manipulate and corrupt. Religious leaders are the perfect thieving, power hungry bands of corruption. It's a wonderful and compelling story. The irony is so edgy -- get it, a religious person who is actually bad.


I think you are being way too defensive fro someone who thinks I am way off base. The only thing that is elementary and shallow is your pretending what was, wasn't.

BTW, you were the one who asked me as question, so STFU on that. And secondly, you are still wrong about Christmas. As well as every other holiday you have tried to pretend didn't exist until the alleged Jesus was born, etc.

SLAG
04-03-2009, 08:57 AM
I think you are being way too defensive fro someone who thinks I am way off base. The only thing that is elementary and shallow is your pretending what was, wasn't.

BTW, you were the one who asked me as question, so STFU on that. And secondly, you are still wrong about Christmas. As well as every other holiday you have tried to pretend didn't exist until the alleged Jesus was born, etc.

I think the point is..

SO WHAT.. Whoopty Frikkin Doo!

They were all prefigurements of the real Christ, Just because there were stories and fables that were similar in nature as Jesus himself, does not take away from Christianity's claim at all.

QUAERITUR:
If there was SOOOO many different Pagan gods before Christ that has all the similar aspects, why then has there not been any more? Where is the "new" christ - Todays Virgin Births?

Why has Christianity lasted so long and continues to endure?

irishjayhawk
04-03-2009, 09:00 AM
I think the point is..

SO WHAT.. Whoopty Frikkin Doo!

They were all prefigurements of the real Christ, Just because there were stories and fables that were similar in nature as Jesus himself, does not take away from Christianity's claim at all.

QUAERITUR:
If there was SOOOO many different Pagan gods before Christ that has all the similar aspects, why then has there not been any more? Where is the "new" christ - Todays Virgin Births?

Why has Christianity lasted so long and continues to endure?

SLAG,

The point he's getting at is it strips away credibility. It calls into question the supernatural portions of the story (virgin birth, resurrection, etc). It's just like plagiarism.

Also, the whole "x has lasted so long and endured the years" argument is a logical fallacy.

petegz28
04-03-2009, 09:02 AM
I think the point is..

SO WHAT.. Whoopty Frikkin Doo!

They were all prefigurements of the real Christ, Just because there were stories and fables that were similar in nature as Jesus himself, does not take away from Christianity's claim at all.

QUAERITUR:
If there was SOOOO many different Pagan gods before Christ that has all the similar aspects, why then has there not been any more? Where is the "new" christ - Todays Virgin Births?

Why has Christianity lasted so long and continues to endure?

The "real" Christ? Man that is too much.

Why has it lasted so long? Well, let's see there were wars killing people if they weren't Christian. We indoctrinate people from birth in some cases. And Christianity is rather young compared to some other religions. You should know that.

SLAG
04-03-2009, 09:17 AM
SLAG,

The point he's getting at is it strips away credibility. It calls into question the supernatural portions of the story (virgin birth, resurrection, etc). It's just like plagiarism.

Also, the whole "x has lasted so long and endured the years" argument is a logical fallacy.

The Idea that it strips away its credibility is a Logical Fallacy

It Does no such thing

petegz28
04-03-2009, 09:34 AM
The Idea that it strips away its credibility is a Logical Fallacy

It Does no such thing

Well, you are free to live in denial all you wish.

irishjayhawk
04-03-2009, 09:34 AM
The Idea that it strips away its credibility is a Logical Fallacy

It Does no such thing

Yes it does.

A scientists that forges data is less credible than a scientist who doesn't.
An author who copies another's story for their own gain.............

On and on.

mcan
04-03-2009, 12:35 PM
For those that think Christmas is a Pagan Holiday - here is the proper argument against it:
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4427963

now on the topic of Atheists I offer this Video:

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1: Campaign in Europe and "new" atheism:
-Father says that this is an unintelligent form of atheism. He contrasts it with the work of the existentialists like Sartre. Father is making a basic mistake about the definition of "atheist." Atheist just means a LACK of belief in "theism." It's not a BELIEF, it's a lack of belief. Sartre's LACK of belief is exactly equivalent to the "new" atheist's LACK of belief. There is nothing more or less intelligent about my lack of belief in talking walnuts than the people who had a lack of belief in talking walnuts 100 years ago, regardless of whatever "isms" or ideas I might have or they might have had about other things...

2: Our natural "hunger" for God
-Father rather quickly breezes past his premise that provides the foundation for the rest of his argument. He says "They knew that we have in us a deep desire for: Fulfillment, truth, goodness, justice... In other words, GOD." While I have no doubt that the vast majority of people desire truth and goodness and the like, and while it's fairly certain we are all looking for fulfillment, there can be no doubt that the definition of these words is NOT, "GOD." It might be true that there IS a god. It might also be true that this god cares about us, and even embodies these qualities, and it might be even further true that god CAN bring a person fulfillment. But it's also true that I can give someone a Pepsi, and like to make people happy. That does NOT make ME "happiness", and it should stand to reason that I am NOT a Pepsi.

3: On the Bible providing an adequate answer to "atheism"
-Father talks about how the psalms, et al... Are every bit as "dark" as the work of Sartre. He argues that the story of Cohalev shows clearly that money and fame and 'wordly pleasures' aren't enough to satisfy us. While the story may tell us that's the case, this is not a proof or an argument. And even if it were a proof, again, it's an either/or fallacy. It might be true that 'worldly pleasures' are ultimately unsatisfying, but it could very well be that there is something else (other than a diety) that provides satisfaction to humans. Perhaps love, family, or maybe even a struggle to survive... Further, if it were true that God is the ultimate satisfaction, one would think that every church goer would be happy. But we don't see this either.

4: The metaphor of the Dog
-Father asks us to think of a thought experiment of a dog who gets his fill of food and love and falls asleep, blissfully happy. He argues that when humans are just as satisfied with the goods of this world, that we are STILL unsatisfied, unlike the dog. Two problems here. Firstly, there is no way that Father could know that every dog is always blissfully happy. It could very well be that a dog has psychological problems such as depression, just as any human might, regardless of its circumstances. Second, Father runs into the same problem. Just because humans are not completely satisfied with a full belly and good health does not mean that God can make up the difference, and EVEN if God does for some people... There is no way of telling if that is a placebo effect.

5: On the Opiate of the Masses argument.
-Father believes that atheists are wrong to call religion a drug. Rather, he says that our desire for God (see above) proves the existence of God, in the same way that our hunger proves the existence of food, and to believe in SPITE of this obvious fact is why it is atheists who are actually forced to take a drug... Despite the beauty and romanticism in this argument, there are a great number of problems with it. Firstly, no true or discernible "desire" for God can be shown. It can be CLAIMED, and with great fervor by believers, but it can not be proven to be a real desire, and certainly can not be shown to be an innate desire had by all humans. Second, even if we DO have a desire for GOD... Which GOD? One might point to the VAST number of Gods created and say "we must have a NEED for God or else we wouldn't always be inventing Gods" but the flip side of that coin is that there is absolutely NO was of telling if the God we currently find in favor is any more or less of an invention than the extinct Gods that ancient man prayed to for rain. Thirdly, there are a great many more explanations for our tendency to create and worship Gods than "God made us with a God shaped hole in our soul." One such explanation might be that humans desire knowledge every bit as much as we desire food and shelter and comfort. In order to compensate for our lack of knowledge, past humans have created Gods to fill in the gaps. In this way, I would argue that religion is less like a drug, and more like a placebo.

Bowser
04-03-2009, 12:37 PM
I thought this was a well stated argument. Granted what Father Barron and I would disagree on is "what\who is God", he makes a very intelligent argument.

Yes, the man sounds quite intelligent, but all he does there is try to use an atheists argument against the atheists. It was the equivalent of "I'm rubber and you're glue; it bounces off me and sticks to you!"

petegz28
04-03-2009, 12:39 PM
Yes, the man sounds quite intelligent, but all he does there is try to use an atheists argument against the atheists. It was the equivalent of "I'm rubber and you're glue; it bounces off me and sticks to you!"

I didn't see it that way at all. In fact I think he points out something very accurate about people. Now, whether that leads you to a religion as in Chrisitanity or any other Diety based religion is another debate.

But he does a great job at pointing out the fact that humans are not satisfied or rarely so with any amount of earthly pleasures. Does that mean we need to believe in God as the Christians say God is? Another debate. But I think the jist of his point is spot on.

Bowser
04-03-2009, 12:42 PM
I didn't see it that way at all. In fact I think he points out something very accurate about people. Now, whether that leads you to a religion as in Chrisitanity or any other Diety based religion is another debate.

But he does a great job at pointing out the fact that humans are not satisfied or rarely so with any amount of earthly pleasures. Does that mean we need to believe in God as the Christians say God is? Another debate. But I think the jist of his point is spot on.

I'll defer to mcan's post, as he broke it down far better than I would have ever attempted to.

Mecca
04-03-2009, 01:12 PM
I'm atheist so what...it's not something I routinely think about or something that crosses my mind even once every few days.

I have no belief in anything of that nature.

petegz28
04-03-2009, 01:44 PM
I'll defer to mcan's post, as he broke it down far better than I would have ever attempted to.

Yea, I read that and he went onto tangents I was not even addressing. I am talking about the fact he made the point that people are never satisfied with material possession. The recent record amount of layoffs by the extremely rich are evidence. People will always want more. Now that doesn't mean they are seeking "Jesus" as the Father tried to say. But I still thought it a good point.

SLAG
04-03-2009, 01:55 PM
mcan- that was one of the best replies i have ever seen on the board

I have emailed your response to Father, and I hope he responds, if he does I will post it here.

Thanks
Chris

mcan
04-03-2009, 04:44 PM
mcan- that was one of the best replies i have ever seen on the board

I have emailed your response to Father, and I hope he responds, if he does I will post it here.

Thanks
Chris

Thanks man. :) Let's see what he has to say.

Simplex3
04-04-2009, 01:01 PM
Why has Christianity lasted so long and continues to endure?

Couldn't have anything to do with being better at killing other people could it?

whoman69
04-04-2009, 10:17 PM
Believing in science does not cancel a belief in God. He uses Steven Hawking as a poster child, yet Steven Hawking is on record defending that God created the universe. Disbelieving science because it ruins your literal interpretation of the bible is delusional. Let's use an example. God created man in his own image. Not many people I know look like a burning bush.

petegz28
04-04-2009, 11:21 PM
Believing in science does not cancel a belief in God. He uses Steven Hawking as a poster child, yet Steven Hawking is on record defending that God created the universe. Disbelieving science because it ruins your literal interpretation of the bible is delusional. Let's use an example. God created man in his own image. Not many people I know look like a burning bush.

Steven Hawking is also a Pantheist I believe. Which is what I am.


Stephen Hawking
Larry King: Do you believe in God?
Stephen Hawking:
Yes, if by God is meant the embodiment of the laws of the universe.
Larry King Live, December 25, 1999
http://www.pantheism.net/

stevieray
04-05-2009, 11:56 AM
God created man in his own image. Not many people I know look like a burning bush.

these two statements don't lean towards one another.

humans being created in his image..likeness semblance, form,, is different than appearing to humans...I think that we could not handle looking into the face of God.

look how people react around beautiful women, movie stars, athletes, etc.

it's exactly why God doesn't give us something to see as a means to believe, other than changes in yours and other's lives..nobody would ever feel worthy, therefore inhibiting their desire to surrender to Him.

Ultra Peanut
04-06-2009, 03:17 PM
I slam dunk on ya soul,
BAM! In yo faith!