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Tribal Warfare
03-28-2009, 01:38 PM
Barwin Adds Another Visit (http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=2&cid=851070&nid=3681814&fhn=1)
by Ed Thompson of ScoutNFLNetwork.com, March 27, 2009 at 7:58am ET



Scout.com has been told that University of Cincinnati DE/TE Connor Barwin has an official visit scheduled with the New England Patriots on Friday, March 29-30, according to a source.

The visit signals a strong level of interest from New England, since they also held a private workout with Barwin on March 10.

Barwin's already had an official visit with the Buffalo Bills in March, but he has four visits planned for April already. He'll kick off his road trips with the Kansas City Chiefs on April 1st and 2nd, then he's off to Tennessee to meet with the Titans on the 5th and 6th. Then it's off to Jacksonville for a visit on the 12th and 13th followed by the Rams on the 15th and 16th.

Spicy McHaggis
03-28-2009, 10:54 PM
The more I watch and read about this kid, the more I want him to suit up for the Chiefs.

Tribal Warfare
03-28-2009, 11:22 PM
The more I watch and read about this kid, the more I want him to suit up for the Chiefs.



The more hear about him, the more I think KC is going to tradedown to pick up a 2nd round pick plus change at the mid to bottom end of the 1st to get Barwin.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-29-2009, 02:34 AM
The more hear about him, the more I think KC is going to tradedown to pick up a 2nd round pick plus change at the mid to bottom end of the 1st to get Barwin.

I think he has a lot of upside, but there is absolutely no way he goes in the first round.

Tribal Warfare
03-29-2009, 03:13 AM
I think he has a lot of upside, but there is absolutely no way he goes in the first round.

Just depending how he interviews, I can definitely see him going into the bottom end of the 1st round.

Tribal Warfare
03-30-2009, 12:09 AM
Chiefs scheduling a private workout with Barwin (http://profootball.scout.com/2/849052.html)

The Atlanta Falcons and the Chiefs have also expressed interest in setting up a private workout, but a date hasn't been firmed-up as of yet.

Scout.com will continue to track Barwin's progress up through draft weekend, so be sure to check back frequently for updates and special features on this unique individual and player.

htismaqe
03-30-2009, 09:34 AM
I think he has a lot of upside, but there is absolutely no way he goes in the first round.

I think there's a chance.

If we were to trade with the Eagles for instance, that 28 spot would be somewhere he could go.

Tribal Warfare
03-30-2009, 09:39 AM
I think there's a chance.

If we were to trade with the Eagles for instance, that 28 spot would be somewhere he could go.

or if the Jets sell us their soul if Stafford is available.

bdeg
03-30-2009, 09:43 AM
Jerry Reese loves potential. I don't think there's any chance he makes it by the Giants. And if he does I wouldn't be shocked to see the Steelers take him. The Ravens would also probably be interested. I'd make a small bet he doesn't make it to the 2nd if anyone's interested.

KCrockaholic
03-31-2009, 01:00 AM
The more hear about him, the more I think KC is going to tradedown to pick up a 2nd round pick plus change at the mid to bottom end of the 1st to get Barwin.

Im curious...What makes you think The Chiefs are wanting to trade down to select Barwin? Hes an interesting kid, but why do you think KC is that interested in him besides the fact that we will be interviewing him.

Tribal Warfare
03-31-2009, 01:09 AM
Im curious...What makes you think The Chiefs are wanting to trade down to select Barwin? Hes an interesting kid, but why do you think KC is that interested in him besides the fact that we will be interviewing him.



private workouts with an interview indicates a strong interest , fits the Pioli profile he is looking for, and can be had later down othe round while obtaining more picks.

KCrockaholic
03-31-2009, 01:29 AM
private workouts with an interview indicates a strong interest , fits the Pioli profile he is looking for, and can be had later down othe round while obtaining more picks.

I would love having him, hes a high risk, high reward player IMO. But the Risk is likely worth the chance. I just dont like that he has only had 1 year as a defense player. He reminds me a lot of Mike Vrabel actually. Barwin could play TE in the redzone much like Vrabel does. And he could end up being a good rush off the edge type player.

DaneMcCloud
03-31-2009, 02:09 AM
I would love having him, hes a high risk, high reward player IMO. But the Risk is likely worth the chance. I just dont like that he has only had 1 year as a defense player. He reminds me a lot of Mike Vrabel actually. Barwin could play TE in the redzone much like Vrabel does. And he could end up being a good rush off the edge type player.

I'm sorry, most of us don't speak Spanish.

And for the record, Champ, Vrabel was a late third round selection.

Nice comparison.

KCrockaholic
03-31-2009, 08:18 AM
I'm sorry, most of us don't speak Spanish.

And for the record, Champ, Vrabel was a late third round selection.

Nice comparison.

most of us dont speak douchebag either, but we put up with you. :rolleyes:

It doesnt matter when Vrabel was drafted, im talking about Barwins projected NFL skills. Ive seen my fair share of Barwin, and he is very much like Vrabel. Even all the "experts" will tell you Barwin is a lot like Vrabel, and ive seen some call him a "Vrabel clone". Somebody needs to block you from the draft forum until you learn a thing or two about the players in this years draft.

kcbubb
03-31-2009, 09:42 AM
Barwin is probably the best big athlete in the draft. He has the potential to be the best player in the draft. But can he play up to his ability? That's the question. He's raw.

Saccopoo
03-31-2009, 12:13 PM
Mistakenly posted in another thread, but Barwin is a major reach. A one year player at DE after switching from TE in a weak conference equates into a huge project.

As I stated elsewhere, he doesn't give you anything over what the Chiefs already have in Brian Johnston, who was a one man wrecking crew and athletic freak of nature in small college at the DE spot.

Barwin would be a complete waste of a pick in my opinion.

KCrockaholic
03-31-2009, 12:22 PM
Mistakenly posted in another thread, but Barwin is a major reach. A one year player at DE after switching from TE in a weak conference equates into a huge project.

As I stated elsewhere, he doesn't give you anything over what the Chiefs already have in Brian Johnston, who was a one man wrecking crew and athletic freak of nature in small college at the DE spot.

Barwin would be a complete waste of a pick in my opinion.

I agree with most of this except the bold part. Johnston was just an overhyped guy because he was a white defensive end and we all wished that he could become the next Jared Allen. Johnston really didnt even do anything special in college like putting up big numbers or anything for a division II player. Barwin is a pure athlete. Not really a DE/LB/TE but hes a guy that can help out in a number of ways whether its defense or offense. Johnston cant offer that. Taking Barwin would be a very high risk. A reach? depends on where we get him. If we trade back up into the 2nd round and get him there...that would be a good deal. He wont be a waste of a pick because he offers so much. Yes he may be one of the most raw players in this draft, but I think the reward would be worth the risk.

htismaqe
03-31-2009, 12:26 PM
I don't believe Brian Johnston is on the roster anymore.

Coogs
03-31-2009, 12:28 PM
I don't believe Brian Johnston is on the roster anymore.

http://www.kcchiefs.com/players/

It still has him listed on the roster. :shrug:

Saccopoo
03-31-2009, 02:21 PM
I agree with most of this except the bold part. Johnston was just an overhyped guy because he was a white defensive end and we all wished that he could become the next Jared Allen. Johnston really didnt even do anything special in college like putting up big numbers or anything for a division II player. Barwin is a pure athlete. Not really a DE/LB/TE but hes a guy that can help out in a number of ways whether its defense or offense. Johnston cant offer that. Taking Barwin would be a very high risk. A reach? depends on where we get him. If we trade back up into the 2nd round and get him there...that would be a good deal. He wont be a waste of a pick because he offers so much. Yes he may be one of the most raw players in this draft, but I think the reward would be worth the risk.

Johnston was a pure athlete. His measurables were off the chart for a guy of his size and he also was second in the country in stops behind the line of scrimmage. Dude was a beast in the I-AA. To wit:

"Johnston played very well in the 2008 Hula Bowl, one of the nation’s better College Football All-Star games. He didn't get an invitation to the 2008 NFL Scouting Combine, but on 8 March 2008 he dazzled scouts at his Pro Day workout. Measuring in at 6-foot-5, 274 pounds, Johnston ran his first 40-yard dash in an eye-popping 4.66 seconds. His slowest time of the day was 4.70, which is still faster than Johnston’s best time a year ago. Johnston’s 40-yard dash time during his pro day, would have been the fourth best at the recent NFL Scouting Combine for defensive ends, and the best for any lineman weighing more than 260 pounds.

His most impressive stat from the 40-yard dash came with a very strong 1.51-second time through the first 10 yards, an important time with regards to a players quickness. By comparison, Johnston's 10-yard split was the same as Arkansas running back Darren McFadden turned in at the Combine earlier this year.

He recorded an impressive 35-inch vertical leap as well, which would have ranked second among defensive linemen at the NFL Scouting Combine – and best for a player of his size.

The most impressive result overall, however, may have been Johnston’s time in the 20-yard shuttle. He turned in a 4.18-second time, which is better than any lineman at the NFL’s Scouting Combine. In fact, the 4.18-second time was faster than any running back at the event – with Illinois’ Rashard Mendenhall the only back to match that time.

A 6.96-second time in the 3-cone, was also impressive, and would rank him third if he would have went to the combine."

Tell me what a guy like Barwin gives you over that? Especially considering that he's only played the DE for one single season in a mid-major conference. Nope. Nothing more than Johnston, and at this point, maybe a lot less based on his lack of experience and smaller size.

bdeg
03-31-2009, 02:23 PM
a 10'8 broadjump and a 4.47 40
He matched that shuttle, too.

Johnston's 1.51 10 yard split is really impressive though, Barwin wasn't far behind with 1.53

Barwin's ceiling is literally 'through the roof'

Someone explain to me why Maybin is a better prospect than Barwin.

Tribal Warfare
03-31-2009, 02:24 PM
a 10'8 broadjump and a 4.49 40

A ceiling literally 'through the roof'

4.47 at his pro day

bdeg
03-31-2009, 02:30 PM
4.47 at his pro day

yup good call, I'd already corrected it too lol

Barwin also had a 40 inch vertical

Saccopoo
03-31-2009, 02:35 PM
yup good call, I'd already corrected it too lol

Barwin also had a 40 inch vertical

Great. Second coming of Matt Jones. Freak athlete with no experience at any position. That's a first round pick for teams that border on insanity and a sixth round pick for a smart team.

Tribal Warfare
03-31-2009, 02:38 PM
Great. Second coming of Matt Jones. Freak athlete with no experience at any position. That's a first round pick for teams that border on insanity and a sixth round pick for a smart team.

Matt Jones played QB for the Razorbacks without any college production as a WR, how does that relate to Barwin?

bdeg
03-31-2009, 02:41 PM
Great. Second coming of Matt Jones. Freak athlete with no experience at any position. That's a first round pick for teams that border on insanity and a sixth round pick for a smart team.

He did get like 11 sacks or something like that last year. He didn't look inept at DE. He looked natural. Once he learned to time the snap he was a force rushing the edge. If he gets good coaching and learns the pass rush moves of a player like Brown he will be near unblockable. This may take a couple years, but he will contribute as a rusher early, and I believe he'll continue to show the hard work and improvement he showed in his one year on D.

bdeg
03-31-2009, 06:01 PM
I'd still love for someone to tell me what makes Aaron Maybin(commonly projected top 10 pick) a better prospect than Barwin.

Shouldn't be hard right, if Barwin is a questionable first rounder?

But Barwin's ceiling is higher, and Maybin is practically just as raw.

KCrockaholic
03-31-2009, 06:05 PM
I'd still love for someone to tell me what makes Aaron Maybin(commonly projected top 10 pick) a better prospect than Barwin.

Shouldn't be hard right, if Barwin is a questionable first rounder?

But Barwin's ceiling is higher, and Maybin is practically just as raw.

Im not a Maybin fan by any means but if i had to guess why he is rated so high would be....His school (penn state) compared to Barwins Cincinnati. Maybin has been slightly more productive. But other than this its hard to say why he is rated so high by so many people.

bdeg
03-31-2009, 06:08 PM
Level of competition has something to do with it, but when you look at the players and how they play...
Barwin has better size
Barwin has better speed
Barwin has better quickness/explosiveness
Barwin has shown more improvement during his time on defense.

I have a feeling if Barwin had been playing DE as long as Maybin he could already have the pass rushing moves of a player like Brown. Unfortunately that's a gamble someone's going to have to take with only one season of film on him.

KCrockaholic
03-31-2009, 06:22 PM
Level of competition has something to do with it, but when you look at the players and how they play...
Barwin has better size
Barwin has better speed
Barwin has better quickness/explosiveness
Barwin has shown more improvement during his time on defense.

I have a feeling if Barwin had been playing DE as long as Maybin he could already have the pass rushing moves of a player like Brown. Unfortunately that's a gamble someone's going to have to take with only one season of film on him.

Im hoping that we take him in the 2nd if we can get a pick that high.

htismaqe
03-31-2009, 06:23 PM
Im hoping that we take him in the 2nd if we can get a pick that high.

I really hope we can trade down and get some picks back. Being able to get Barwin would mean we somehow ended up with a late 1st or very early 2nd.

KCrockaholic
03-31-2009, 06:27 PM
I really hope we can trade down and get some picks back. Being able to get Barwin would mean we somehow ended up with a late 1st or very early 2nd.

It would be nice to have a 2nd again. I bet Barwin slides just because he only had one year of production.

Tribal Warfare
03-31-2009, 06:27 PM
I really hope we can trade down and get some picks back. Being able to get Barwin would mean we somehow ended up with a late 1st or very early 2nd.

IMO it will be in the 17- 21 range if KC selects Barwin.

ChiefsCountry
03-31-2009, 06:35 PM
Barwin stood out in the Orange Bowl. He just popped out.

Saccopoo
03-31-2009, 08:26 PM
a 10'8 broadjump and a 4.47 40
He matched that shuttle, too.

Johnston's 1.51 10 yard split is really impressive though, Barwin wasn't far behind with 1.53

Barwin's ceiling is literally 'through the roof'

Someone explain to me why Maybin is a better prospect than Barwin.

I'm not high on Maybin either and also Brown for the same reason - that they operated in a pure pass rush mode all season with little technique other than a speed rush.

Barwin is an athletic freak, and dominated rushing from the DE spot in his only season there. I don't know if it was because of the lack of competition or that he was just that good. I'm just a little leary of taking a guy with absolutely no experience at the OLB spot as early in the draft as they are considering him. It's just too much of a risk with that high of a pick. If the Chiefs had multiple second round picks, maybe...but it's asking a lot to go out on a limb for a guy you really don't know about other than insane combine numbers. The draft is littered with guys like that who never pan out. Chiefs just recently with Kawika Mitchell as an example. Crazy numbers, but the guy was simply a marginal at best football player. At least to me, with three years of TE experience and his athletic ability, Barwin should have been absolutely devastating people from that TE spot, unless he had oven mitts for hands and had an epiphany about football once he was thrown over to the other side of the ball. Who knows?

I understand that getting a one dimensional player is okay, if that one dimension is rushing the passer, but they had better do it better than anyone in the NFL to justify a #3 pick, ala DT. But I think you can pick up a two down Elvis Dumervil type of player later on...maybe not this draft though. Allen turned out to be so much more than that. Lucky for the Chiefs - at least for a couple of years. I think that they looked at Johnston in the same manner. Maybe he turns it on this next season. But I don't see Barwin as anything more than a smaller version of Brian Johnston at this point - with less experience at the edge.

The real befuddlement that I have is why George Selvie was told to go back to school and work on his game, but Maybin is in the draft and is being considered a first round pick. Selvie is an absolute beast in rushing the passer, and uses a variety of moves to do so. Absolutely relentless. That's the guy that I'd love the Chiefs to look at for next years draft. Him or Germaine Gresham as Tony's replacement.

bdeg
03-31-2009, 08:35 PM
I think it's ridiculous to group Brown in with Maybin and Barwin when he has the best, most well-developed pass rush moves of any rusher in this draft. And as keg has pointed out, Brown was moved around on FSU's defense. They lined him up inside on some plays, had him rush standing up sometimes, and also had him occasionally drop into coverage.

Of course, I hope you realize I don't want to take Barwin at #3, right?

Dumervil doesn't have the same long-term upside. The same natural tools. You may get the same immediate production, but you're not drafting for potential.

Spicy McHaggis
03-31-2009, 08:42 PM
Great. Second coming of Matt Jones. Freak athlete with no experience at any position. That's a first round pick for teams that border on insanity and a sixth round pick for a smart team.

I can see why you would say that, (both guys are "potential" guys, freakish athletes, played b-ball) but it isn't a great comparison IMO. Jones hadn't played any wide out prior to the pros aside from splitting a bit of time there his freshman year. There was really no evidence to think he would turn out to be really productive as a wideout in the NFL. Barwin has at least a year of experience at DE and was productive with 11 sacks.

Jones was a third round pick or later that Jacksonville took a major chance on. Barwin has generally been viewed as a 2nd rounder and if the Chiefs select him, it will probably be in that range. Jones looked disinterested in games in both college and the NFL whereas Barwin's work ethic has been lauded as great.

And Barwin doesn't have a coke problem.

Chiefnj2
03-31-2009, 08:44 PM
Jones was a third round pick or later that Jacksonville took a major chance on. .

Jones was a first round pick.

bdeg
03-31-2009, 08:45 PM
Hey, don't repeat me on that 11 sacks, I checked and it was 10.

Saccopoo
03-31-2009, 09:03 PM
I think it's ridiculous to group Brown in with Maybin and Barwin when he has the best, most well-developed pass rush moves of any rusher in this draft. And as keg has pointed out, Brown was moved around on FSU's defense. They lined him up inside on some plays, had him rush standing up sometimes, and also had him occasionally drop into coverage.

Of course, I hope you realize I don't want to take Barwin at #3, right?

Dumervil doesn't have the same long-term upside. The same natural tools. You may get the same immediate production, but you're not drafting for potential.

I agree that Brown is better, at this point, than Maybin and Barwin, and does present a player with the potential for immediate production over these two players.

If the Chiefs are looking for that OLB/edge rusher, it comes down to him, Orakpo, Clint Sintim, or Larry English - all who are beasts off the edge and who have shown skills in other facets of the game (something that seems to be the knock on guys like Maybin and Barwin). I know that there are some on this board who aren't high on Orakpo, but he looks to be the guy with the most upside in this group. Big, and could get bigger. Fast, and is immensely strong. This is a guy who would be able to be a full game three down rush end. I'd personally take Orakpo over Brown by a hair based on Orakpo's size and strength. Both are quality players. However, I think that you could get Sintim or English later on in the first round/beginning of the second round and get about the same level of player - maybe more. English played at a smaller school, so his numbers are probably a little more inflated than the others, but he did it year in and year out and is a physical specimen - even more so than Orakpo. However, I think Sintim is the most well rounded of the four and might have the most productive long term future of all of them.

Another one to consider is Paul Kruger, but he's more of a 4-3 DE than a 3-4 LB or 3-4 DE. Absolute monster that never gives up and plays sideline to sideline. One man wrecking crew that looks to be the modern day equivalent to, say, Howie Long. Big frame and carries his weight well on it. He was impossible to stop one on one in the MWC, and every team basically ran the opposite direction from him. Destroyed Alabama in the Sugar Bowl, and I really regret that Andre Smith pussed out and didn't show for their matchup.

bdeg
03-31-2009, 09:14 PM
I don't think Orakpo has the athleticism, the elite first-step, or the ability to use his hands to shed blocks necessary to make it as a 3-4 OLB. You can point to bad coaching, but he hasn't shown me enough improvement in his time at Texas for me to want to take him in the top 15. I think he'll end up as a 4-3 left end in 5 years. I'm impressed with your analysis of Kruger, I wasn't that impressed with his #'s, but I'll have to check him out more.

English I like a lot, and I see flashes of quickness. Gotta love the long-term productivity. Very physical player.

Sintim plays with great technique. I think he'd probably make the easiest transition to a 3-4 OLB. He's grown on me a bit recently, but something bugs me a little. I didn't watch a whole game of his unfortunately so I have to go off highlight tapes. Maybe it's that he's getting fatigued but he just doesn't seem to always be as explosive as he can be.

Spicy McHaggis
03-31-2009, 09:19 PM
Jones was a first round pick.

I know, I was just stating prior to the draft he was widely considered about a 3rd round value. I was shocked that the Jaguars spent a first on him.

bdeg
03-31-2009, 09:44 PM
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I like when Utah lined up with 3 linemen, Kruger had to be double-teamed and still got to the QB. At 6'4 I wonder if he couldn't add 30 lbs and be a monster 3-4 DE in a couple years. I think he might have the athleticism to play 3-4 OLB, they dropped him into coverage occasionally, and he can obviously fight through blocks. You're right he probably fits best in a 4-3.

It's really frustrating not having any picks in the range of where all of these players will go, makes me think we're going to trade down even more.

rockymtnchief
03-31-2009, 09:53 PM
Nice to finally hear a few others who've noticed Simtin. I've mentioned him in other threads and got little or no replies. I was hoping to get him in the 2nd round. Then the big trade changed all that.

DaneMcCloud
03-31-2009, 10:32 PM
most of us dont speak douchebag either, but we put up with you. :rolleyes:

It doesnt matter when Vrabel was drafted, im talking about Barwins projected NFL skills. Ive seen my fair share of Barwin, and he is very much like Vrabel. Even all the "experts" will tell you Barwin is a lot like Vrabel, and ive seen some call him a "Vrabel clone".

Okay, n00b, there is a little thing called "Ignore". If you don't like getting shit slung in your face for ridiculous comparisons, use it.

It absolutely matters when Vrabel was drafted because it took him nearly 5 years to figure how to play in the NFL and that was with his second team. So are you comparing him to Vrabel when he was drafted or Mike Vrabel 8 years after he was drafted?

Somebody needs to block you from the draft forum until you learn a thing or two about the players in this years draft.

And you need to go fuck yourself, Dickhead.

Saccopoo
04-01-2009, 01:05 AM
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I like when Utah lined up with 3 linemen, Kruger had to be double-teamed and still got to the QB. At 6'4 I wonder if he couldn't add 30 lbs and be a monster 3-4 DE in a couple years. I think he might have the athleticism to play 3-4 OLB, they dropped him into coverage occasionally, and he can obviously fight through blocks. You're right he probably fits best in a 4-3.

It's really frustrating not having any picks in the range of where all of these players will go, makes me think we're going to trade down even more.

Kruger saw double and triples almost every game the past two years. Strong enough to fight through blocks and double teams, but is also quick enough to get around the edge. And he has the frame to add another 20-30 pounds. Bone structure/frame is huge, he's smart, athletic and incredibly instinctive. Was an All-American at quarterback in high school, got recruited to play that position for Utah by Urban Meyer, went on a Mormon mission and basically out grew it. Way to talented to not be on the field, so the Utes stuck him at DE because of his size and athleticism, and he was a man among boys.

IMHO, and I've stated this before, I think Kruger is the best pure DE in this draft and is going to be a steal for anyone in the second round.

DaneMcCloud
04-01-2009, 01:34 AM
IF Kruger wasn't missing a kidney and other internal organs, he'd be less of a risk.

He has serious, serious health issues that absolutely must be taken into consideration.

He's the prototypical "Boom or Bust" guy.

KCrockaholic
04-01-2009, 02:22 AM
Okay, n00b, there is a little thing called "Ignore". If you don't like getting shit slung in your face for ridiculous comparisons, use it.

It absolutely matters when Vrabel was drafted because it took him nearly 5 years to figure how to play in the NFL and that was with his second team. So are you comparing him to Vrabel when he was drafted or Mike Vrabel 8 years after he was drafted?



And you need to go **** yourself, Dickhead.

Its not a ridiculous comparison at all. Ive projected Barwin to be a player a lot like Vrabel is right now. Im not the only one who thinks this either.

How is it that im the dickhead when your the one who cant make an educated statement without throwing in some stupid cuss word. You throw temper tantrums worse than a 3 year old.

Saccopoo
04-01-2009, 02:23 AM
IF Kruger wasn't missing a kidney and other internal organs, he'd be less of a risk.

He has serious, serious health issues that absolutely must be taken into consideration.

He's the prototypical "Boom or Bust" guy.

I don't think that makes him a boom or bust guy. I think that makes him a "I hope you don't play running back or fullback" type of guy and take body shots from DT's and LB's and SS's all game long type of guy. He's primarily going to get hands to the shoulders from offensive tackles.

And everyone is a risk in this league. One bad roll over on your legs and you never play again. One head shot and you never play again. One I hope Rodney Harrison is out of the league permanently and I can play again next week.

Sure there are question marks on Kruger about the internals. A team would be stupid not to make sure he checked out, and perhaps it drops him to the Chiefs in the third *crosses fingers*. But you can't question the talent, production, drive or prototype size and skill. There is always some level of crap shoot with any of these guys regardless.

KCrockaholic
04-01-2009, 02:25 AM
Nice to finally hear a few others who've noticed Simtin. I've mentioned him in other threads and got little or no replies. I was hoping to get him in the 2nd round. Then the big trade changed all that.

I like Sintim as well. Hes just not that, you know "sexy pick" that everyone loves. But he gets the job done with the best of them.

Saccopoo
04-01-2009, 02:46 AM
I like Sintim as well. Hes just not that, you know "sexy pick" that everyone loves. But he gets the job done with the best of them.

By sexy pick you mean that he has massive holes in his game and put up an amazing number in a single category but sucked in everything else, correct?

Sintim led the NCAA's in sacks by a LB. If that isn't a sexy stat, I don't know what is. He can also cover, run through blockers and eats RBs.

Oh, but he isn't Aaron Maybin, who posted a wacky 40 time at his pro day, so he isn't as sexy. Or better yet, Michael Johnson.

I hate guys who can actually play football. Just ruins my draft prognostications. Where would I be without guys like Gholston, Mitchell, Gallery, et al.?

bdeg
04-01-2009, 08:29 AM
Kruger saw double and triples almost every game the past two years. Strong enough to fight through blocks and double teams, but is also quick enough to get around the edge. And he has the frame to add another 20-30 pounds. Bone structure/frame is huge, he's smart, athletic and incredibly instinctive. Was an All-American at quarterback in high school, got recruited to play that position for Utah by Urban Meyer, went on a Mormon mission and basically out grew it. Way to talented to not be on the field, so the Utes stuck him at DE because of his size and athleticism, and he was a man among boys.

IMHO, and I've stated this before, I think Kruger is the best pure DE in this draft and is going to be a steal for anyone in the second round.

My only disagreement is that I'm not convinced he has the quickness to get the edge on any LT's in the pros. I think he's a prototypical monster 4-3 LE.

Chiefnj2
04-01-2009, 08:44 AM
By sexy pick you mean that he has massive holes in his game and put up an amazing number in a single category but sucked in everything else, correct?

Sintim led the NCAA's in sacks by a LB. If that isn't a sexy stat, I don't know what is. He can also cover, run through blockers and eats RBs.

Oh, but he isn't Aaron Maybin, who posted a wacky 40 time at his pro day, so he isn't as sexy. Or better yet, Michael Johnson.

I hate guys who can actually play football. Just ruins my draft prognostications. Where would I be without guys like Gholston, Mitchell, Gallery, et al.?

Not all that many colleges run a 3-4 so to lead in sacks as a LB isn't necessarily a great feat. It's good, but not necessarily first round NFL draft pick worthy. Sintim would make a quick adjustment, but based on pure athleticism he is probably on the bottom rung of guys like Barwin, Orakpo, Brown and Kruger. From a pure athleticism point of view Barwin looks to have a very high ceiling.

KCrockaholic
04-01-2009, 09:13 AM
By sexy pick you mean that he has massive holes in his game and put up an amazing number in a single category but sucked in everything else, correct?

Sintim led the NCAA's in sacks by a LB. If that isn't a sexy stat, I don't know what is. He can also cover, run through blockers and eats RBs.

Oh, but he isn't Aaron Maybin, who posted a wacky 40 time at his pro day, so he isn't as sexy. Or better yet, Michael Johnson.

I hate guys who can actually play football. Just ruins my draft prognostications. Where would I be without guys like Gholston, Mitchell, Gallery, et al.?

WTF? its not like i said he is a bad player. Yeah he had 11 sacks, I know. He is very rarely talked about within the media. Its nothing against his talent, he just seems to get lost in the shuffle of the other linebackers. Which may turn out to be a good thing for a team looking for a steal in the 2nd round. A "sexy pick" for example would be Brian Cushing IMO, the media raves him, and although he might not be better than Sintim he is still going to be looked at as the better player from the media.

DaneMcCloud
04-01-2009, 02:35 PM
Its not a ridiculous comparison at all. Ive projected Barwin to be a player a lot like Vrabel is right now. Im not the only one who thinks this either.

I'm sorry, it's a ridiculous comparison. Projecting him as a first rounder, then comparing him to a guy who was drafted in the third and took five years to mature is dumb. Especially when the guy's only played for ONE year.

Furthermore, teams are looking at him as either a LB or a TE. Clearly, there's no consensus as to where he'll play in the NFL.

How is it that im the dickhead when your the one who cant make an educated statement without throwing in some stupid cuss word. You throw temper tantrums worse than a 3 year old.

I'm sorry my words wounded your vagina.

Saccopoo
04-01-2009, 03:11 PM
WTF? its not like i said he is a bad player. Yeah he had 11 sacks, I know. He is very rarely talked about within the media. Its nothing against his talent, he just seems to get lost in the shuffle of the other linebackers. Which may turn out to be a good thing for a team looking for a steal in the 2nd round. A "sexy pick" for example would be Brian Cushing IMO, the media raves him, and although he might not be better than Sintim he is still going to be looked at as the better player from the media.

I was attempting to be sarcastic. It didn't work out well.

I like Sintim. I think he's athletic enough to be mentioned with guys like Brown, Maybin, et al., but he also possess a more well-rounded game and did it while being the primary focus on defense.

He's the guy I wanted the Chiefs to take with their second round pick when that was still available to them. A trade down from the three gives them a shot at him, while picking up additional picks in the process. I'd rather have Sintim or a guy like English and picks than Brown, Orakpo, Maybin, Johnson or whathaveyou with the #3 pick. That is, unless Brian Orakpo is the second coming of John Abraham, or Everette Brown is the next Dwight Freeney. Then you take them at the #3. But you just never know. That's why a trade down and a pick of Sintim or English plus addition picks seems like the best thing at this point.

Although, I still would be happy with Curry. Our ILB spot has been nothing short of tragic, and I think the MILB is the most important position on the defense. A good one will elevate the rest of the players around them substantially. They may not have the sexy stats other than tackles, but they start helping the rest of the defense fill up the stat sheet. And I just don't see another MILB other than Curry being able to do that in a 3-4 hybrid. I like Lauriniatis and Phillips from TCU, but I don't think that Laur is in Curry's class from an athletic standpoint, and Phillips looks like a pure 4-3 ILB.

DaneMcCloud
04-01-2009, 03:15 PM
I think the MILB is the most important position on the defense.

I MLB is probably the least important position on defense, which is why they rarely, if ever go in the Top Ten.

Wow.

Saccopoo
04-01-2009, 03:40 PM
I MLB is probably the least important position on defense, which is why they rarely, if ever go in the Top Ten.

Wow.

I know you do. I don't. I think that they are very important. The Chiefs had one of the best pass rushers and the most complete player at DE in Jared Allen and they didn't do squat. However, their ILB position has been virtually empty since the days of Dino Hackett, and it's been a reason why the Chiefs have sucked on that side of the ball for a long, long time.

DaneMcCloud
04-01-2009, 05:19 PM
I know you do. I don't. I think that they are very important. The Chiefs had one of the best pass rushers and the most complete player at DE in Jared Allen and they didn't do squat. However, their ILB position has been virtually empty since the days of Dino Hackett, and it's been a reason why the Chiefs have sucked on that side of the ball for a long, long time.

That is absolutely untrue.

The Chiefs have "sucked" on that side of the ball due to lack of adequate play at the safety, cornerback and interior defensive line. They've been virtually talentless at those positions for more than a decade, though the players selected in the 2008 draft may bring long-term stability to the cornerback position (interior d-line is still a question mark).

As much as I liked Dino Hackett as a player, his presence the past few seasons wouldn't have made much, if any difference on these woefully undermanned Chiefs defenses.

Poor drafting for more than a decade led to the current state of the Chiefs defense.

Not a lack of a MLB.

KCrockaholic
04-01-2009, 11:09 PM
That is absolutely untrue.

The Chiefs have "sucked" on that side of the ball due to lack of adequate play at the safety, cornerback and interior defensive line. They've been virtually talentless at those positions for more than a decade, though the players selected in the 2008 draft may bring long-term stability to the cornerback position (interior d-line is still a question mark).

As much as I liked Dino Hackett as a player, his presence the past few seasons wouldn't have made much, if any difference on these woefully undermanned Chiefs defenses.

Poor drafting for more than a decade led to the current state of the Chiefs defense.

Not a lack of a MLB.


:clap: Im proud. A response as if you have any class may be a first. Maybe you grew up?

bdeg
04-02-2009, 03:02 AM
I think part of our issue was definitely not having anybody at MLB. The fact that we gave Napoleon Harris 24 mil made us look like the raiders.

I was just hoping we'd find a good MLB in the 2nd or 3rd. Like someone else mentioned the Eagles have mastered getting lb's late.
I'm not sure exactly how the value translates going from a 4-3 to a 3-4 ILB.

Tribal Warfare
04-03-2009, 01:40 PM
Several Players Test Positive (http://draftheadquarters.com/blog/?p=522)

April 3rd, 2009 Shawn Posted in Zobel's Blog |

According to NFL Draft Bible, Percy Harvin, Jose Martinez, and Vontae Davis all tested positive for marijuana, while Clay Matthews and Brian Cushing tested positive for steroids. SI.com has also reported that B.J. Raji tested positive, for marijuana as well.

First off, how dumb can some players get? Like I’ve said before, I don’t normally call players out, but things like this are just amazing. These players know that they will be tested at the Combine, yet they still decide to use the drugs. For a player with that bad of decision making, it makes you question whether you’d want to use a first round pick on them, which is the case for 5/6’s of the players that were in the reports.

This is big news on the draft front. I personally think that the steroids issue with the two USC linebackers is biggest. Cushing has been under the spotlight for quite awhile now, so not many people will be surprised about this. It’s very disappointing to hear that Matthews tested positive, if it’s true. A former walk-on, Clay had worked hard to develop into a starter on the top defense in the nation. You just had really hoped that he was able to do it without taking steroids. This could hurt each player’s draft stock.

At the Combine there were two player who scouts continually told me had attitude problems, and that is Percy Harvin and Vontae Davis. By more than two or three teams I was told that they were bad characters off the field. With this news, both players will see their draft stock drop. If I was running a draft, I wouldn’t touch either of them. I love Harvin’s playmaking ability, but his attitude problems and now this make it too much for me to want to draft him. I detailed each player’s problems in my 2009 Draft Preview.

Jose Martinez could potentially lose his chance of playing in the NFL if the report is true. From a team’s standpoint, when there are several kickers to choose from every year, why would you take a chance on a rookie who tested positive for an illegal drug?

B.J. Raji may lose more money out of this than any other player. A potential Top 10 pick, I now think that Raji could likely fall to the ‘teens to a team like Denver, if they don’t trade up.

- With five of the top 84 picks, I think that it’s fairly likely that Broncos will attempt to trade up to draft USC’s Mark Sanchez. To assure themselves that they will get him, Denver will likely need to trade up to No. 3 overall with Kansas City in order to move ahead of Seattle, who could take Sanchez.

- The Ravens will reportedly be looking at wide receiver in the first round this year.

- The Chiefs told Cincinnati’s Connor Barwin that they would move him to outside linebacker if Kansas City drafted him. One interesting note from Barwin: “They [Kansas City] said they had the third pick right now but that things could change.”

- Like I said in my mock draft, there’s a realistic chance the New Orleans could select Beanie Wells in the first round.

Dicky McElephant
04-03-2009, 01:47 PM
- With five of the top 84 picks, I think that it’s fairly likely that Broncos will attempt to trade up to draft USC’s Mark Sanchez. To assure themselves that they will get him, Denver will likely need to trade up to No. 3 overall with Kansas City in order to move ahead of Seattle, who could take Sanchez.

:D:clap:

htismaqe
04-03-2009, 01:47 PM
- The Chiefs told Cincinnati’s Connor Barwin that they would move him to outside linebacker if Kansas City drafted him. One interesting note from Barwin: “They [Kansas City] said they had the third pick right now but that things could change.”


Awesome!

Tribal Warfare
04-03-2009, 01:53 PM
Awesome!

can I call it or what :rockon:

Chiefnj2
04-03-2009, 02:10 PM
The Chiefs aren't trading with the Broncos.

bdeg
04-03-2009, 02:11 PM
This part should also be noted

"At the Combine there were two player who scouts continually told me had attitude problems, and that is Percy Harvin and Vontae Davis. By more than two or three teams I was told that they were bad characters off the field. With this news, both players will see their draft stock drop. If I was running a draft, I wouldn’t touch either of them. I love Harvin’s playmaking ability, but his attitude problems and now this make it too much for me to want to draft him. I detailed each player’s problems in my 2009 Draft Preview."

I didn't realize Harvin was being grouped with Vontae on this.

htismaqe
04-03-2009, 02:12 PM
The Chiefs aren't trading with the Broncos.

But they are trading, if at all possible. And that's all that matters.

Mecca
04-03-2009, 02:17 PM
I'd love for someone to tell me what the attitude problems they have are....this is the time of year where looking at someone wrong is an attitude problem.

bdeg
04-03-2009, 02:29 PM
I'd love for someone to tell me what the attitude problems they have are....this is the time of year where looking at someone wrong is an attitude problem.

I've heard numerous reports

Here's one

"Talks down to coaches. Prima Donna--thinks he walks on water and does not respect others. Beat too often and quits on plays--lacks mental toughness. Babies injuries to escape practice. Does not work at the craft. Does not make mental adjustments.

Tribal Warfare
04-03-2009, 02:29 PM
Chiefs trying to match team's shopping list with draft slots (http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/1121758.html)
By ADAM TEICHER
The Kansas City Star

Because of the trade that brought quarterback Matt Cassel and linebacker Mike Vrabel from New England, the Chiefs have no selection in between the first and third rounds of the upcoming draft.

They are proceeding as if they’ll pick later in the first round, sometime in the second or perhaps both. They entertained three highly regarded defensive prospects Thursday at their Truman Sports Complex headquarters — defensive end Brian Orakpo of Texas and linebackers Connor Barwin of Cincinnati and James Laurinaitis of Ohio State.

Orakpo, who had 11 sacks for the Longhorns last season, is one of the draft’s most coveted players, and the Chiefs could choose him with their top pick, third overall.

Barwin and Laurinaitis will probably be selected later in the first round or possibly the second. That is no-man’s land for the Chiefs currently but maybe not by the time the draft rolls around.

“We kind of touched on that a little bit,” Barwin said. “The Chiefs asked me how high I thought I would be drafted. I said I expected to be drafted in the first round, but I didn’t think I would go as high as the third pick overall.

“They said they had the third pick right now but that things could change. They never told me I’d be a Chief, but they did say they didn’t know what draft picks they might have April 25.”

When Chiefs general manager Scott Pioli was personnel director for New England, the Patriots were aggressive traders when it came to the draft. They frequently tried to collect extra draft picks and were usually successful.

Of the nine drafts in which Pioli was involved, six times the Patriots made more than their originally allotted seven picks.

The Chiefs this year have seven picks. They are missing their second-rounder but picked up an extra selection at the end of the seventh round as a compensatory pick.

Barwin in particular looks like a Pioli kind of player. He had 10 sacks last season, his first in college as a defensive player.

“From what they told me, it looks like I’m a guy who would be a pressure player in their 3-4 defense,” Barwin said. “Primarily, I’d be a guy that could rush the passer from a standup position at outside linebacker and also drop into coverage at times.”

The Chiefs also value Barwin for his versatility. He was a tight end during his first three collegiate seasons, catching 31 passes as a junior. Barwin said some teams he’s talked to are interested in him primarily as a tight end.

The Chiefs are not among them, but he said they indicated plans to use him as an extra tight end in certain situations.

Barwin was moved to defense as a senior because his coaches thought he could have more impact there than on offense. The Bearcats moved to the spread, largely eliminating the need for a tight end.

“I think it was good for me,” he said. “I got to show teams my versatility. I can play defense, but I can always go back to tight end, too.”

Vrabel is, like Barwin, an outside linebacker. He was also an effective pass receiver as an extra tight end for the Patriots in goal-line and short-yardage situations.

“I know all about what Mike’s done as a linebacker and catching passes as an extra tight end,” Barwin said. “That would be an ideal mentor for me to learn from right away.”

Vrabel was also a defensive end in college at Ohio State. He had to make the transition to linebacker in the NFL, just as Barwin will.

“I have some foundation for that from high school,” Barwin said. “I played that position in high school. But there are teams, and the Chiefs I guess are one of them, that think I can play that position in the NFL, too. I’m good playing in open areas, but I can also rush the quarterback, too.”

Mecca
04-03-2009, 02:30 PM
I've heard numerous reports

Here's one

"Talks down to coaches. Prima Donna--thinks he walks on water and does not respect others. Beat too often and quits on plays--lacks mental toughness. Babies injuries to escape practice. Does not work at the craft. Does not make mental adjustments.

So basically "he's Vernon Davis brother" is enough.

Chiefnj2
04-03-2009, 02:35 PM
KC is looking to see how wide the gap is between the top guys and the next tier.

htismaqe
04-03-2009, 02:38 PM
KC is looking to see how wide the gap is between the top guys and the next tier.

They're scouting the players they'll have a shot at after they trade down.

Dicky McElephant
04-03-2009, 03:05 PM
Have they had private meetings with any of the top people? Stafford? Monroe? Smith? Curry?

I'm pretty sure they've met with Smith and Curry.

Chiefnj2
04-03-2009, 03:11 PM
They're scouting the players they'll have a shot at after they trade down.

Deciding if it is worth it to trade down.

Tribal Warfare
04-03-2009, 03:17 PM
Deciding if it is worth it to trade down.

and it is

Chiefnj2
04-03-2009, 03:19 PM
Have they had private meetings with any of the top people? Stafford? Monroe? Smith? Curry?

I'm pretty sure they've met with Smith and Curry.

I think they are with Curry today or yesterday. I've read they have a second interview (not workout) with Curry for two weeks from now. They are supposed to work out Brown and a WR named Taurus Johnson.

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/3/21/805900/tracking-the-kansas-city-c

Chiefshrink
04-04-2009, 01:38 AM
The more I watch and read about this kid, the more I want him to suit up for the Chiefs.

Dwight Freeney speed and quickness:thumb:

DaneMcCloud
04-04-2009, 01:40 AM
and it is

Just a question:

Why are you so sold on a guy who started one year on defense for Cincinnati of all teams? A lot of teams are looking at him as a tight end.

Personally, this sounds like a recipe for disaster because he is a long, long way from a "Sure Thing" and the Chiefs have about 20 holes to fill.

Chiefshrink
04-04-2009, 01:41 AM
Deciding if it is worth it to trade down.

I really feel we will trade down and get our 2nd rd pick back.:thumb: Casserly on NFLn was saying he sees us swapping with possibly Seattle or Cleveland depending on what Pioli/Haley value the most.

Tribal Warfare
04-04-2009, 02:04 AM
Just a question:

Why are you so sold on a guy who started one year on defense for Cincinnati of all teams? A lot of teams are looking at him as a tight end.





I saw some of the game film , and the guy made a Pat Swilling spin move that just floored the opposing tackle.I mean if this kid is raw, and he developed that rush move effectively within a year then he has very bright future as an OLB/DE.

DaneMcCloud
04-04-2009, 11:47 AM
I saw some of the game film , and the guy made a Pat Swilling spin move that just floored the opposing tackle.I mean if this kid is raw, and he developed that rush move effectively within a year then he has very bright future as an OLB/DE.

Okay, I get that.

But a first? If he doesn't kick ass his first season, people are going to be all over his ass.

I've watched some clips and read reports and honestly, he sounds like a 3rd rounder to me. He has a very high ceiling (if he can get there) but a first, IMO, should be reserved for an immediate starter.

I guess we'll see...

milkman
04-04-2009, 11:53 AM
That's the guy that I'd love the Chiefs to look at for next years draft. Him or Germaine Gresham as Tony's replacement.

Wait.....


You are advocating taking TE in the top ten?

Are you fucking high?

Saccopoo
04-04-2009, 02:41 PM
Wait.....


You are advocating taking TE in the top ten?

Are you ****ing high?

Not when I typed that I wasn't.

I like getting the best football player possible, and Gresham is one of, if not the, best tight ends I've ever seen in college. I understand that there is a whole of people around here that like picking position value with their mocks or whathaveyou; e.g., *in the most whiny voice possible* "You don't pick linebackers in the top three!!!! Waaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!", etc.

Personally, I don't give a rat's patootie what position a guy plays. Get the best guy possible unless you got a great guy there already. To take a flyer on a boom/bust guy or a reach just because he plays a certain position that "considered" by some to be more important than another is not very intelligent in my book.

And it's because of this that certain positions are overvalued by the casual fan - positions such as cornerback, wide receiver, rush end, etc. Everyone likes to see replay highlights of a sack, of a douchey touchdown celebration by some Diva level wideout (who would have never have made that touchdown if they didn't get an amazingly good throw from their quarterback - a REAL position of importance), etc.

A football team is the sum of it's parts, and if you can get quality football players who have great instincts and talent at each position, that wins you football games. More often than not, it is the trenches type positions that ultimately win you football games over the long haul than the perceived glamour positions. Give me a top three middle linebacker over a top three rush backer all day long. Same with tight end and wide receiver. Same with safety versus cornerback. It's nice to have a little flash, but the substance has got to be there for a team to win games, and I'm a firm believer that that has to happen in the middle of the field, the trenches before it can happen on the outside "flashy" positions.

bdeg
04-04-2009, 02:49 PM
Give me a top three middle linebacker over a top three rush backer all day long. Same with tight end and wide receiver. Same with safety versus cornerback. It's nice to have a little flash, but the substance has got to be there for a team to win games, and I'm a firm believer that that has to happen in the middle of the field, the trenches before it can happen on the outside "flashy" positions.

I was with you until this. Really? 3-4 ILB > 3-4 OLB? I know where you're coming from and agree for the most part, but I think that's wrong.

Mecca
04-04-2009, 02:52 PM
If you built a team that way, you'd basically stop the run and then get killed by teams that could throw the ball...

It was a great theory when it wasn't a passing league, now that it is, the highest valued defensive players are, pass rushers.

I think his theory is ok other than I think he's overvaluing some positions that you can get by at with an alright player.

KCrockaholic
04-05-2009, 01:39 AM
If we trade with Denver, we better rape them like no other. Not just the 12 and 18. But their 12,18,79, and 185th. If Sanchez is really that important to them they can trade away their souls before they get to him. All in favor of us trading down better hope Brady Quinn stays a Brown.

Saccopoo
04-05-2009, 02:51 AM
If you built a team that way, you'd basically stop the run and then get killed by teams that could throw the ball...

It was a great theory when it wasn't a passing league, now that it is, the highest valued defensive players are, pass rushers.

I think his theory is ok other than I think he's overvaluing some positions that you can get by at with an alright player.

Problem with that point is that the Chiefs, in the last 20 years, had two of the most dominant pass rushers of their day in DT and Jared Allen. Some success in the DT period, none in the JA period.

I fully understand the importance of a decent pass rush, but a good pass rush has to be married to a stable solid defense up the middle. Otherwise, that dominant pass rusher doesn't mean doodlely squat. It's about proper balance. About getting quality, and not necessarily the most dynamic player, but the most fundamentally sound, well rounded player at each position. The sum of the whole is greater than the individual parts. It's why you don't pay Albert Haynesworth like the Redskins did, but instead get good players at a multitude of positions. It takes 11 guys to win a game - on both sides of the ball. I just think building stability up the middle (both sides) is a better way to achieve it than building with the glamour positions. I value a middle linebacker over a ROLB because of that. The MLB might not get the oohs and aahs that a OLB would, but the middle linebacker is doing all the other stuff - supporting the run, calling the defense, dropping in coverage, etc. A very good one will cover a lot of sins by the rest of the defense. However, a bad one or even a mediocre one will cost you a boat load of games because he is required to do so much and a good offense will exploit that a lot more than just having a full back or extra tight end help the LT on a really good pass rusher.

That's just how I see it. There's a lot of different ways to build a football team, and most of them have worked in some capacity.

htismaqe
04-06-2009, 09:53 AM
Personally, I don't give a rat's patootie what position a guy plays.

Well, the NFL doesn't do things that way. Sorry.

eazyb81
04-11-2009, 05:40 PM
Connor Barwin is a sick athlete and probably has more upside than any other player in this draft.

At this point, my ideal scenario would be us trading down to around 20-25 and taking this kid. He has Merriman potential.

Tribal Warfare
04-11-2009, 07:11 PM
Connor Barwin is a sick athlete and probably has more upside than any other player in this draft.

At this point, my ideal scenario would be us trading down to around 20-25 and taking this kid. He has Merriman potential.

When I saw him make a spin move on a left tackle that made the OT dumbfounded that he got past him, and after hearing this was his 1st year at DE. I immediately thought that this kid has Demarcus Ware potential.