PDA

View Full Version : U.S. Issues Obama promises NO new taxes on families under 250k a year


Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 11:12 AM
I guess cigarette taxes don't count. I understand that he was implying federal tax, payroll tax, etc. I don't care. He didn't quantify it, and I voted for him in part because of it. Now, less than 3 months into office my tax burden just went up by about $600 a year. I don't make half of 250k. What happened? And how much more of the tax burden will get shifted to nasty smokers? Better yet, who's next after everyone has been priced out of smoking?

COMPLY. OR WE WILL BREAK YOU FINANCIALLY.

Brock
04-01-2009, 11:41 AM
Are you going to quit?

Katipan
04-01-2009, 11:43 AM
Someone's gotta pay for all the Octuplets in the country.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 11:45 AM
Are you going to quit?

Yeah. I have an appointment with the Dr. in a couple of weeks to get Chantix. Honestly, I'm a little bitter about it, but I do see the long term value in it. Financially, healthwise, and other. I just don't feel as free anymore. Boo hoo I guess.

Mr. Kotter
04-01-2009, 11:48 AM
This kind of thing will definitely get used against him in upcoming elections. Politics as usual, and there will be a political price to be paid. The question is how much? In the end, probably won't hurt him too much though IMHO. Guess we'll see though.

patteeu
04-01-2009, 11:48 AM
Shame on anyone who believed any of Obama's pseudo-promises.

http://reformationnation.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.jpg

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 11:51 AM
I'm pissed because I can't kill myself more cheaply.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 11:51 AM
Shame on anyone who believed any of Obama's pseudo-promises.

http://reformationnation.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.jpg

Shame on me then. I don't think I was the only one desperate for some real action in Washington. I'm certainly not casting the guy aside over this, it's just a red flag going off.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 11:52 AM
I'm pissed because I can't kill myself more cheaply.


Really? That's all this is for you? Being the intellectual you are, I figured you would definitely understand my position whether you agreed with it or not.

Brock
04-01-2009, 11:52 AM
I'm pissed because I can't kill myself more cheaply.

Sure you can. There isn't any federal tax on Big Macs or pizza.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 11:53 AM
Sure you can. There isn't any federal tax on Big Macs or pizza.

I can't figure out if food is next, or alcohol. Maybe simoutaneously?

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 11:55 AM
Really? That's all this is for you? Being the intellectual you are, I figured you would definitely understand my position whether you agreed with it or not.

Pretty much, Mr. Flopnuts. Your freedom to essentially give yourself cancer is still available to you, just at a higher price. The government is just encouraging you to live a healthier life, at the same time collecting money to do things like -- curing cancer.

Brock
04-01-2009, 11:56 AM
Pretty much, Mr. Flopnuts. Your freedom to essentially give yourself cancer is still available to you, just at a higher price. The government is just encouraging you to live a healthier life, at the same time collecting money to do things like -- give it to insurance and banking executives.

FYP

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 11:56 AM
There is a difference between food and cigarettes. People need food, and even Big Macs provide nutrition.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 11:58 AM
FYP

That, too.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 12:00 PM
Pretty much, Mr. Flopnuts. Your freedom to essentially give yourself cancer is still available to you, just at a higher price. The government is just encouraging you to live a healthier life, at the same time collecting money to do things like -- curing cancer.

There is a difference between food and cigarettes. People need food, and even Big Macs provide nutrition.

LMAO Someone once said something along the lines of, a 20 year old conservative is a heartless creature. A 40 year old liberal is a foolish one.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 12:01 PM
Oh, they won't raise our taxes, they'll just "let tax cuts expire". Somehow that isn't the same thing.

blaise
04-01-2009, 12:01 PM
There is a difference between food and cigarettes. People need food, and even Big Macs provide nutrition.

Give it time. There will be extra taxes on fast food soon enough.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 12:02 PM
LMAO Someone once said something along the lines of, a 20 year old conservative is a heartless creature. A 40 year old liberal is a foolish one.

I heard it as "If you're young and not a liberal you have no heart. If you're old and not a conservative you have no brain."

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 12:04 PM
Churchill, I think. I guess I have something to look forward to. I consider myself conservative in many respects actually. I want to conserve a lot of things. Also, I don't know why you or Iowanian think and say of me as some intellectual. I'm just debating like the rest of you, and don't have any Ivy League education or anything. I'm just a regular person. I like to watch baseball and The Godfather. I play video games sometime. I'm not an intellectual dammit! I'm an Iowan, a middle class worker. What makes me an intellectual? Is it the black and white avatars I use? I just prefer black and white photos. And I can spell well.

patteeu
04-01-2009, 12:07 PM
Shame on me then. I don't think I was the only one desperate for some real action in Washington. I'm certainly not casting the guy aside over this, it's just a red flag going off.

Just look at his cute pink nose.

BigCatDaddy
04-01-2009, 12:12 PM
Is the Gov't trying to get the country to get smoking? I mean with the taxes and bans it sure appears that way. If so why? Could it be to help with reduce with the cost of national healthcare? Just curious to eveyone's thoughts.

KC Dan
04-01-2009, 12:13 PM
Pretty much, Mr. Flopnuts. Your freedom to essentially give yourself cancer is still available to you, just at a higher price. The government is just encouraging you to live a healthier life, at the same time collecting money to do things like -- curing cancer.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! You actually believe that dribble....Thanks for the laugh. This is all about grabbing money, nothing more.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 12:15 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! You actually believe that dribble....Thanks for the laugh. This is all about grabbing money, nothing more.

Kind of cute though, huh?

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 12:16 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! You actually believe that dribble....Thanks for the laugh. This is all about grabbing money, nothing more.

That is the biggest and most essential part of it, I will agree with that. Our government needs money = the largest part comes from taxes. The fact that it's taxing something that is totally destructive to people makes it fine to me.

Katipan
04-01-2009, 12:17 PM
Maybe if it was drivel.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 12:18 PM
Churchill, I think. I guess I have something to look forward to. I consider myself conservative in many respects actually. I want to conserve a lot of things. Also, I don't know why you or Iowanian think and say of me as some intellectual. I'm just debating like the rest of you, and don't have any Ivy League education or anything. I'm just a regular person. I like to watch baseball and The Godfather. I play video games sometime. I'm not an intellectual dammit! I'm an Iowan, a middle class worker. What makes me an intellectual? Is it the black and white avatars I use? I just prefer black and white photos. And I can spell well.

Actually, that wasn't meant as some kind of backhanded jab. That was a genuine compliment. You're posts have become much more insightful over the last 2-3 years.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 12:19 PM
I heard it as "If you're young and not a liberal you have no heart. If you're old and not a conservative you have no brain."

That's what it was. I couldn't remember it verbatum and couldn't find it on google.

Dave Lane
04-01-2009, 12:22 PM
Shame on me then. I don't think I was the only one desperate for some real action in Washington. I'm certainly not casting the guy aside over this, it's just a red flag going off.

You are joking right? This is sarcasm I assume April fools? Seriously you thought no tax in the country might go up. And this is totally voluntary, no way you have to spend one extra buck. I'll go all republican here for a moment. I you can't afford to smoke don't smoke if you can't pay your own health care for the rest of your life don't smoke cuz I sure as hell ain't paying for your bad behavior!!

I feel sorta dirty now...

KC Dan
04-01-2009, 12:22 PM
That is the biggest and most essential part of it, I will agree with that. Our government needs money = the largest part comes from taxes. The fact that it's taxing something that is totally destructive to people makes it fine to me.
No, No, No, our gov't needs to spend less and get out of our lives! That is what the gov't needs to do. You really think they need more money? They have printed Trillions (with a BIG F'N- T) out of thin air. They need ZERO more money. They need to take a page out of the ordinary tax payer and live within their means. That means realistic budget not the proposed Presidential wish list.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 12:22 PM
Actually, that wasn't meant as some kind of backhanded jab. That was a genuine compliment. You're posts have become much more insightful over the last 2-3 years.

Could be dementia, Mr. Flopnuts. I would schedule an appointment if I were you.

Dave Lane
04-01-2009, 12:24 PM
Churchill, I think. I guess I have something to look forward to. I consider myself conservative in many respects actually. I want to conserve a lot of things. Also, I don't know why you or Iowanian think and say of me as some intellectual. I'm just debating like the rest of you, and don't have any Ivy League education or anything. I'm just a regular person. I like to watch baseball and The Godfather. I play video games sometime. I'm not an intellectual dammit! I'm an Iowan, a middle class worker. What makes me an intellectual? Is it the black and white avatars I use? I just prefer black and white photos. And I can spell well.

Never EVER EVER deny or think that you don't want to be an intellectual. It is a badge of honor above all others!!

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 12:25 PM
That is the biggest and most essential part of it, I will agree with that. Our government needs money = the largest part comes from taxes. The fact that it's taxing something that is totally destructive to people makes it fine to me.

Problem is that people will quit smoking, but the government program the smoking tax was for won't go away. What gets taxed next? Are you going to hope that it isn't something you like to do?

patteeu
04-01-2009, 12:25 PM
Actually, that wasn't meant as some kind of backhanded jab. That was a genuine compliment. You're posts have become much more insightful over the last 2-3 years.

I agree with this, Jenson71. You put a lot of thought into your posts and when you gain more experience, I expect that that thoughtfulness will pay off and turn you into a conservative unless you get stuck living in a cesspool of liberalism like Amnorix. :D

Hog Farmer
04-01-2009, 12:26 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again.


If you voted for Hussein Obama.

Your and Idiot !!!!

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 12:29 PM
No, No, No, our gov't needs to spend less and get out of our lives! That is what the gov't needs to do. You really think they need more money? They have printed Trillions (with a BIG F'N- T) out of thin air. They need ZERO more money. They need to take a page out of the ordinary tax payer and live within their means. That means realistic budget not the proposed Presidential wish list.

Weelll, there's a lot there that I both agree and disagree with. In short, I think government, our country as a whole, does need to live within their means. But, I think we can have things like health care, unemployment benefits, and top of the line education and energy (as Obama has said he wants to focus on) and still live within our means. Okay, but the budget has a huge deficit. Correct, that can't go on for longer than is absolutely necessary.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 12:33 PM
You can't give people "free" things and have them not abuse the system. Anything provided by the government is perceived as free and will therefore be abused.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 12:35 PM
Problem is that people will quit smoking, but the government program the smoking tax was for won't go away. What gets taxed next? Are you going to hope that it isn't something you like to do?

Hopefully by then we have a just and equitable tax rate. :) It's easy going down the slippery slope argument, but I'll just leave it at taxing things that do nothing but harm people is fine by me. I think pornography should be taxed heavily also, if it isn't already. I don't think there should be sales tax on books.

Brock
04-01-2009, 12:38 PM
I think pornography should be taxed heavily also, if it isn't already.

ROFL

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 12:39 PM
You are joking right? This is sarcasm I assume April fools? Seriously you thought no tax in the country might go up. And this is totally voluntary, no way you have to spend one extra buck. I'll go all republican here for a moment. I you can't afford to smoke don't smoke if you can't pay your own health care for the rest of your life don't smoke cuz I sure as hell ain't paying for your bad behavior!!

I feel sorta dirty now...

Totally. In the meantime, fornicate at will, go on welfare, and have those smokers put your kids through school. We are such a blame shifting society.................

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 12:40 PM
I had to add that in being that I assume everyone reading it looks up porn on the internet. Just making sure they're all awake.

It will be tracked and you will be fined!

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 12:41 PM
Hopefully by then we have a just and equitable tax rate. :) It's easy going down the slippery slope argument, but I'll just leave it at taxing things that do nothing but harm people is fine by me. I think pornography should be taxed heavily also, if it isn't already. I don't think there should be sales tax on books.

I think religion is harmful. I'd love nothing more than to tax the crap out of it. Catholicism is the worst kind, so I'm going to tax that doubly. Oh, and it's going to be retroactive.

By agreeing with taxing certain behaviors you have granted yourself a power you don't want your enemies to have.

FishingRod
04-01-2009, 12:45 PM
Whats next, My guess Alcohol, Some additional taxes on Trucks and SUVs. Internet porn, Gambling. So called Assault weapons, Then just any gun. Any luxury and or recreational item like a boat, PWC . Pretty much anything that we can find more than 50% of the people that it doesn't directly affect. People don't care if it is right or wrong or an overstepping of where government should stick its nose as long as they are sticking it to someone else. Oh Trans Fats will get it eventually but most people like to go to the drive through from time to time so it will be much further down the list.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 12:48 PM
I think religion is harmful. I'd love nothing more than to tax the crap out of it. Catholicism is the worst kind, so I'm going to tax that doubly. Oh, and it's going to be retroactive.

By agreeing with taxing certain behaviors you have granted yourself a power you don't want your enemies to have.

A few problems here: 1. We don't just believe that smoking is harmful. There is plenty of proof on that. 2. Freedom of speech and thought, like religion, are well protected in our country. 3. By taxing one religion more than others, you are by default, favoring the others, which is not allowed.

Garcia Bronco
04-01-2009, 12:49 PM
Sure you can. There isn't any federal tax on Big Macs or pizza.

yet

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 12:49 PM
Problem is that people will quit smoking, but the government program the smoking tax was for won't go away. What gets taxed next? Are you going to hope that it isn't something you like to do?

Exactly. And when you cry about it, there's a whole army of people ready to laugh about it, much like many are doing now.

Garcia Bronco
04-01-2009, 12:50 PM
Pretty much, Mr. Flopnuts. Your freedom to essentially give yourself cancer is still available to you, just at a higher price. The government is just encouraging you to live a healthier life, at the same time collecting money to do things like -- curing cancer.

Incorrect. This tax increase is going to fund chp. Health insurance for kids who's parents are WELL above the poverty line.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 12:50 PM
By the way, I want to point out that if there is good ground for your rights being taken away because you are in the minority, there is a legitimate, independent, and well-respected branch of our government that sees to secure your rights. I know the political election process can being a lot of hostility out against the majority, but our government is actually very good at respecting peoples' rights.

Taco John
04-01-2009, 12:52 PM
Hopefully by then we have a just and equitable tax rate. :) It's easy going down the slippery slope argument, but I'll just leave it at taxing things that do nothing but harm people is fine by me. I think pornography should be taxed heavily also, if it isn't already. I don't think there should be sales tax on books.


Our resident liberty-sucking authoritarian. Aren't kids cute?

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 12:52 PM
Incorrect. This tax increase is going to fund chp. Health insurance for kids who's parents are WELL above the poverty line.

Which is what makes me bring up Obama's role in this at all. His whole campaign was predicated on poor people living to a higher standard, then turns around and doubles a tax that is being paid for in majority by poor people. Not every smoker is poor, but it's a pretty common fact that more poor people smoke than rich people.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 12:52 PM
By the way, I want to point out that if there is good ground for your rights being taken away because you are in the minority, there is a legitimate, independent, and well-respected branch of our government that sees to secure your rights. I know the political election process can being a lot of hostility out against the majority, but our government is actually very good at respecting peoples' rights.

And on that note, I hope you will agree with me that an independent judicial branch is of utmost importance to our country. That's why judges should not be elected.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 12:56 PM
Our resident liberty-sucking authoritarian. Aren't kids cute?

The Holy Prophet of the Glorious Free Market has spoken! The Book of Wisdom is opened!

Garcia Bronco
04-01-2009, 12:57 PM
Which is what makes me bring up Obama's role in this at all. His whole campaign was predicated on poor people living to a higher standard, then turns around and doubles a tax that is being paid for in majority by poor people. Not every smoker is poor, but it's a pretty common fact that more poor people smoke than rich people.

Well. George Bush vetoed this same bill to cover 12 million kids at 5 billion. This bill covers 12 million kids at 32 billion. That math just doesn't add up. And you are absolutely right. If Obama was a true man of his word he would have vetoed this bill, but politically he couldn't.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 12:59 PM
A few problems here: 1. We don't just believe that smoking is harmful. There is plenty of proof on that. 2. Freedom of speech and thought, like religion, are well protected in our country. 3. By taxing one religion more than others, you are by default, favoring the others, which is not allowed.

More people have died in the name of God than will ever die from cigarettes.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:00 PM
A few problems here: 1. We don't just believe that smoking is harmful. There is plenty of proof on that.

I can prove religion is harmful as well or better than you can prove smoking is harmful. Religion has killed far more people than cigarettes ever could have.

2. Freedom of speech and thought, like religion, are well protected in our country.

Not really. We've whittled around the edges of all of those for decades.

3. By taxing one religion more than others, you are by default, favoring the others, which is not allowed.

Affirmative action. Tax brackets. We choose to treat people differently based upon grouping all the time. This is just a logical extension of that.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 01:00 PM
Well. George Bush vetoed this same bill to cover 12 million kids at 5 billion. This bill covers 12 million kids at 32 billion. That math just doesn't add up. And you are absolutely right. If Obama was a true man of his word he would have vetoed this bill, but politically he couldn't.

And the real reason I voted for him is because I thought he was man enough to stand up to political bullying. The red flag stands. Luckily, I'm an eternal optimist. Tomorrow will be a brighter day.l

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:04 PM
By the way, I want to point out that if there is good ground for your rights being taken away because you are in the minority, there is a legitimate, independent, and well-respected branch of our government that sees to secure your rights. I know the political election process can being a lot of hostility out against the majority, but our government is actually very good at respecting peoples' rights.

:spock:

There is never any excuse for removing any of a citizen's Constitutional rights except when they have been convicted by a jury of their peers of a federal crime.

The federal government has encroached on our liberty for decades under the false promises of safety and security. We still have neither, but now we have fewer options to protect ourselves.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:06 PM
The fact that more people have died either defending their religion, or killing in the name of their religion is not proof that religion harms people. It's not a direct causation. Now the question "does smoking cause cancer" leads to plenty of evidence that says yes.

We can treat people differently, we just can't treat people differently for their religions, except if they are Native Americans who smoke peyote.

We really do have freedom of speech and freedom of thought -- it is very protected. Are there cases of censorship? Yes, certainly. You may disagree with those, but the conclusions that lead to censorship you have to allow, are reasonable. And for the great most part, we have freedom of speech and freedom of thought.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:07 PM
And on that note, I hope you will agree with me that an independent judicial branch is of utmost importance to our country. That's why judges should not be elected.

They're elected by the people or by elitist lawyers. Either way they're at someone's whim. Just depends on if you want a position at that table.

I'm personally OK with having them be appointed by other lawyers, but people need to be able to vote judges off the bench.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:11 PM
The fact that more people have died either defending their religion, or killing in the name of their religion is not proof that religion harms people. It's not a direct causation. Now the question "does smoking cause cancer" leads to plenty of evidence that says yes.

We can treat people differently, we just can't treat people differently for their religions, except if they are Native Americans who smoke peyote.

We really do have freedom of speech and freedom of thought -- it is very protected. Are there cases of censorship? Yes, certainly. You may disagree with those, but the conclusions that lead to censorship you have to allow, are reasonable. And for the great most part, we have freedom of speech and freedom of thought.

If you are free "for the most part" then you aren't free.

Even the dumbasses in Metallica get that. "Freedom with their exceptions..."

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/U9Xl3vKgGPc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/U9Xl3vKgGPc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:11 PM
:spock:

There is never any excuse for removing any of a citizen's Constitutional rights except when they have been convicted by a jury of their peers of a federal crime.

The federal government has encroached on our liberty for decades under the false promises of safety and security. We still have neither, but now we have fewer options to protect ourselves.

Do you mean with things like the Patriot Act? Some would say yes, you're right, others would say it was necessary. Still, overall, our country is a pretty good place to live and live freely. Our federal government is not as evil as a lot of demagogues like to think. Let's acknowledge that some on the right think America is now totalitarian, and some on the left think America's government is so far from its people and actually protecting them that the government is no longer even legitimate.

Maybe it's the optimist in me, but I think despite some abridgments, our country is still pretty good.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 01:13 PM
Maybe it's the optimist in me, but I think despite some abridgments, our country is still pretty good.

How about comparing our country now to 5 years ago? 10? 20? We've had financial difficulties many times in our history, but we've never been this affronted on our personal liberties. JMO.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:13 PM
If you are free "for the most part" then you aren't free.

Even the dumbasses in Metallica get that.

Your understanding of freedom is distorted and incomplete. You'll never be all the way free, thank God. If men were angels, we would need no government, laws, or restrictions. Luckily for us, we get to endure the struggle of being human, and we can set things up like laws to help us achieve our potential.

Mr. Kotter
04-01-2009, 01:17 PM
Your understanding of freedom is distorted and incomplete. You'll never be all the way free, thank God. If men were angels, we would need no government, laws, or restrictions. Luckily for us, we get to endure the struggle of being human, and we can set things up like laws to help us achieve our potential.

Sounds like something out of the mouth of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, or Ho Chi Minh....

"Well stated, comrade." :thumb:

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:17 PM
How about comparing our country now to 5 years ago? 10? 20? We've had financial difficulties many times in our history, but we've never been this affronted on our personal liberties. JMO.

I don't know. It's hard to compare off the top of my head. We went through prohibition in the 1920s. Raising taxes on cigarettes isn't anything like that.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:18 PM
Sounds like something out of the mouth of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, or Ho Chi Minh....

"Well stated, comrade." :thumb:

Actually, Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Papers. Close!

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 01:18 PM
Sounds like something out of the mouth of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, or Ho Chi Minh....

"Well stated, comrade." :thumb:

John Adams is another one who was of that line of thinking. I admit I only know that after watching the mini series. I'm kind of a dumbass, I mean, I do smoke cigarettes after all.

whatsmynameagain
04-01-2009, 01:19 PM
Which is what makes me bring up Obama's role in this at all. His whole campaign was predicated on poor people living to a higher standard, then turns around and doubles a tax that is being paid for in majority by poor people. Not every smoker is poor, but it's a pretty common fact that more poor people smoke than rich people.

if your poor, you might want to be more wise with your money and not smoke it....especially if your a welfare leach
Posted via Mobile Device

Mr. Kotter
04-01-2009, 01:19 PM
Actually, Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Papers. Close!

And you do know that Hamiliton was the primary reason the founding fathers included "natural born citizen" as one of the requirements for becoming President, don't you?

:hmmm:

Good judgement on their part, IMHO.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 01:19 PM
I don't know. It's hard to compare off the top of my head. We went through prohibition in the 1920s. Raising taxes on cigarettes isn't anything like that.

I disagree. It wasn't at first, but it's become clear that we're going to tax, and continue to tax until we achieve the results we desire. Compliance. Again, COMPLY. OR WE WILL BREAK YOU FINANCIALLY.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:20 PM
Do you mean with things like the Patriot Act? Some would say yes, you're right, others would say it was necessary. Still, overall, our country is a pretty good place to live and live freely. Our federal government is not as evil as a lot of demagogues like to think. Let's acknowledge that some on the right think America is now totalitarian, and some on the left think America's government is so far from its people and actually protecting them that the government is no longer even legitimate.

Maybe it's the optimist in me, but I think despite some abridgments, our country is still pretty good.

"Well shit. They've only taken a certain percentage of my rights so far, so what's the worry? Besides, they tell me it was necessary. Also, I'm still more free here than I would be somewhere else."

I can't go there. It isn't something I can accept. "I'm not as dumb or lazy as person X" isn't good enough for me. I want to be as free as I can be. Not as free as someone else says I can afford to be.

Is our country still pretty good? I would content that it isn't. It's surprising how many things have adversely changed just in the time I've been alive. The problem I have is that for the time being it is still more free than any of my other options.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 01:21 PM
if your poor, you might want to be more wise with your money and not smoke it....especially if your a welfare leach
Posted via Mobile Device

I'm not poor. I still want to be more wise with my money and not smoke it. I'll be interested to see who gets my share of the tax burden next. Alcoholics? Fatties? Who's next?

Mr. Kotter
04-01-2009, 01:22 PM
Actually, Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Papers. Close!

Hamilton and the Federalists were way over-rated; I myself, much prefer the Jeffersonian perspective when it comes to the matter of federalism.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:23 PM
Again, COMPLY. OR WE WILL BREAK YOU FINANCIALLY.

"We can't force your state to set a 70mph speed limit on interstate highways, but we can not give you back the money we stole from the people and businesses in your state if you don't."

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:24 PM
And you do know that Hamiliton was the primary reason the founding fathers included "natural born citizen" as one of the requirements for becoming President, don't you?

:hmmm:

Good judgement on their part, IMHO.

Cause we know one thing -- Alexander Hamilton hated freedom.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 01:27 PM
"We can't force your state to set a 70mph speed limit on interstate highways, but we can not give you back the money we stole from the people and businesses in your state if you don't."

Same applies to every other prohibitional law created. Seat belts, pot, etc. What is the boiling point? Or are we too fat, and passive to do anything anymore?

KC Dan
04-01-2009, 01:29 PM
if your poor, you might want to be more wise with your money and not smoke it....especially if your a welfare leach
Posted via Mobile Device
WTH, smoke 'em if you got 'em - po' folks. I'm paying taxes for your welfare and I say enjoy it. I want all that benefit from my hard work to enjoy my gift to them.

blaise
04-01-2009, 01:29 PM
Coca Cola tax coming soon.

mlyonsd
04-01-2009, 01:31 PM
Problem is that people will quit smoking, but the government program the smoking tax was for won't go away. What gets taxed next? Are you going to hope that it isn't something you like to do?

QFT. If the tobacco taxes were going to something like roads or bridges we could all say, well, we'll have to do without a new bridge every other year now when the revenue gets low.

Instead it's going to fund health care, and when the tax's purpose of making people quit runs it's course we'll have a health care program sitting there with no funding.

F'ing brilliant.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:31 PM
Two central themes always prevail in political discussions:

1. Our country is no longer as good as it once was
2. There is no rationality involved in government

No matter what political side you are involved in, or what era you live in, things are almost always getting worse, and government is broken, corrupted, and Congress is a bunch of damned fools.

These are the two central tenants that hold us Americans together. My Republican grandfather and Democratic grandfather could agree on this for hours. Just do not ask why. Peace will never be between them.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:32 PM
Same applies to every other prohibitional law created. Seat belts, pot, etc. What is the boiling point? Or are we too fat, and passive to do anything anymore?

I'm reasonably convinced the majority of Americans don't know that it is possible to survive without someone telling you what to do.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:34 PM
Two central themes always prevail in political discussions:

1. Our country is no longer as good as it once was
2. There is no rationality involved in government

No matter what political side you are involved in, or what era you live in, things are almost always getting worse, and government is broken, corrupted, and Congress is a bunch of damned fools.

These are the two central tenants that hold us Americans together.

This is exactly why government should be slashed. It cannot make 300M people happy. However, 300M people could each make themselves happy if the government would just get the hell out of their way.

blaise
04-01-2009, 01:34 PM
My brother still lives in NY state. He says the governor there is trying to add an extra tax on haircuts. You'd go get a haircut and pay an extra haircut tax.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:36 PM
My brother still lives in NY state. He says the governor there is trying to add an extra tax on haircuts. You'd go get a haircut and pay an extra haircut tax.

Damn Jenson, I hope baldness runs in your family.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:37 PM
This is exactly why government should be slashed. It cannot make 300M people happy. However, 300M people could each make themselves happy if the government would just get the hell out of their way.

A chorus of "Har, aack, harr," grunts, assertive head nods, and sporadic clapping is heard in the distance.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:37 PM
Damn Jenson, I hope baldness runs in your family.

I shave my own head.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:38 PM
A chorus of "Har, aack, harr," grunts, assertive head nods, and sporadic clapping is heard in the distance.

I'm sure that's hilarious, but have you found a fault in the plan?

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:38 PM
I shave my own head.

Phew. For a second I was afraid we'd found a tax you'd have to actually pay.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:38 PM
I'm sure that's hilarious, but have you found a fault in the plan?

Did you lay out a plan?

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:39 PM
Phew. For a second I was afraid we'd found a tax you'd have to actually pay.

I pay sales tax and state tax

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:40 PM
Did you lay out a plan?

Yes. You do what you want, I do what I want, and the other 299,999,998 people do what they want as long as nobody encroaches on anyone else's rights to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:41 PM
I pay sales tax and state tax

I hope you've been stretching your butt for the reaming you'll get when you get out of college and get a job. It isn't something you want to be unprepared for.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:42 PM
Yes. You do what you want, I do what I want, and the other 299,999,998 people do what they want as long as nobody encroaches on anyone else's rights to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

That plan is oddly similarly to the one that is already put in place. You will run into the same issue we do today which is -- what constitutes encroaches? If you would like to read about the history of the United States, I definitely recommend it.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:43 PM
I hope you've been stretching your butt for the reaming you'll get when you get out of college and get a job. It isn't something you want to be unprepared for.

Is there no one who shares some of my main views and has a job and is out of college?

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:46 PM
Is there no one who shares some of my main views and has a job and is out of college?

I can't think of anyone I know. :shrug:

And no, I'm not being a smartass.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 01:47 PM
I can't think of anyone I know. :shrug:

And no, I'm not being a smartass.

We are talking about a cigarette tax, right?

Mr. Kotter
04-01-2009, 01:49 PM
Cause we know one thing -- Alexander Hamilton hated freedom.

He was definitely an elitist who wanted the aristocracy to control society. I wouldn't call that being a big fan of "freedom" as we have come to understand it today, that's for sure.

Mr. Kotter
04-01-2009, 01:51 PM
Is there no one who shares some of my main views and has a job and is out of college?

Out of college? Yeah. Coincidentally, many of them decide to "stay" in college by teaching there as a matter of fact. The Ivory Tower, you know?

Older than 30 or 35, paying real taxes and a real mortgage, with a real family? Not too many.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:52 PM
That plan is oddly similarly to the one that is already put in place. You will run into the same issue we do today which is -- what constitutes encroaches? If you would like to read about the history of the United States, I definitely recommend it.

First, this country is nothing like that. At all. My wife and I can't enter into a contractual agreement on what property would go with which of us upon a separation because divorce law would trump that and limit what we could or couldn't agree to. I can't enter into certain types of contracts with people because of various consumer protection laws, even though we both wish to. All because someone MIGHT get screwed.

As to what constitutes encroachment, it's quite clear.

Life: I killed someone.
Liberty: I forcibly imprisoned someone.

Simplex3
04-01-2009, 01:53 PM
We are talking about a cigarette tax, right?

A high cigarette tax is one of your main views?

Mr. Kotter
04-01-2009, 02:01 PM
Two central themes always prevail in political discussions:

1. Our country is no longer as good as it once was
2. There is no rationality involved in government

No matter what political side you are involved in, or what era you live in, things are almost always getting worse, and government is broken, corrupted, and Congress is a bunch of damned fools.

These are the two central tenants that hold us Americans together. My Republican grandfather and Democratic grandfather could agree on this for hours. Just do not ask why. Peace will never be between them.

Ah, the naivete' of youth.... :shake:

The themes are not what you suggest, but rather:

1. Our country has improved over time, but it's not been because of "progressive" reforms...but rather individual liberty and freedom.
2. Individual liberty and freedom, while crucial....are always relative the liberty and freedom of other people.
3. A rational, and the best, government is one that can help maintain that balance without undue interference or intrusion....because it is interference and intrusion that bring about the irrational government that you complain of.

petegz28
04-01-2009, 02:04 PM
Pretty much, Mr. Flopnuts. Your freedom to essentially give yourself cancer is still available to you, just at a higher price. The government is just encouraging you to live a healthier life, at the same time collecting money to do things like -- curing cancer.

Bullshit. The government is tapping the well they have been tapping time and time again since the 90's. They can give a fuck about you being healthy. They know they can get away with taxing the fuck out of tobacco and get away with it.

ROYC75
04-01-2009, 02:06 PM
We tried to tell you Dems and liberals, but ya didn't want to listen.

Thanks to you all, we all suffer.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 02:13 PM
We tried to tell you Dems and liberals, but ya didn't want to listen.

Thanks to you all, we all suffer.

C'mon Roy. We could say the same thing about the Republicans and this entire financial fiasco. Or is that somehow the Dem's fault too? Let's not pretend that there isn't 7 shades of corruption in each political party. Seriously. Until we do, it'll be more of the same with all the manipulation, and mind fucking one can stand.

ROYC75
04-01-2009, 02:19 PM
C'mon Roy. We could say the same thing about the Republicans and this entire financial fiasco. Or is that somehow the Dem's fault too? Let's not pretend that there isn't 7 shades of corruption in each political party. Seriously. Until we do, it'll be more of the same with all the manipulation, and mind ****ing one can stand.

I guess you were not up to speed on the cost of the Obama plan. Many Dems and Libs' claimed he would not raise taxes. We spoke of it thru other channels, smoke and mirrors. Many did not believe or chose not to believe.

I said all along his 95% tax break was a smoking mirror......, do whatever, say whatever to get elected.

KC Dan
04-01-2009, 02:23 PM
I guess you were not up to speed on the cost of the Obama plan. Many Dems and Libs' claimed he would not raise taxes. We spoke of it thru other channels, smoke and mirrors. Many did not believe or chose not to believe.

I said all along his 95% tax break was a smoking mirror......, do whatever, say whatever to get elected.
Actually, I just had a thought. If you get (on average) $13 per week back from the gov't now (Tax cut) and you smoke 2 pk/day. Your $13 per wk tax cut would be reduced by $8.40 of cigarette taxes. Thus, a well-off person making $100k/yr that doesn't smoke gets a larger tax cut than a poor smoker. Change you can believe in!

Brock
04-01-2009, 02:23 PM
"a smoking mirror". LMAO

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 03:36 PM
He was definitely an elitist who wanted the aristocracy to control society. I wouldn't call that being a big fan of "freedom" as we have come to understand it today, that's for sure.

Hey guess what? All of the Founders were elitist. Most of them came from rich families, and had an elite education, a none of them completely trusted the mass of people. None of them were advocates of "freedom" as we have come to understand it today, that's for sure.

They were also great men who cared about freedom, Hamilton included.

So what was your original point again? Oh yes, limited government, and taking issue with my Hamilton paraphrase which stated that because men are not angels, we need government. And where are your tax rate posts these days? Is it Mr. Hyde today for you Mr. Kotter? Because I hate to break it to you, but progressive tax rates, minimum wage laws, and funding for public teachers is seen by some around here as an intrusive government.

If anyone can speak out of both sides of the mouth, here you are Mr. Kotter. It's worse than "moderate Roy" who warned us how we should vote Republican because otherwise the little people will get screwed. Now, we are all suffering.

Here's another great quote, perhaps from Mao Tse-tung, if you'd like. A man who can't stand for something will fall for anything.

Swanman
04-01-2009, 03:50 PM
Legalize marijuana and tax it. Problem solved, at least in part.

Fact is this, Bush's tax cuts, while cheered by the masses, were fiscally reckless as the government had no plans to curb spending. So unless the government learns to live on a leaner budget, taxes have to go up unless you like the deficit and national debt spinning out of control. And we all know that the government, under either Republican or Democrat rule, is not reducing spending anytime soon, so mathematically, taxes have to go up to keep some semblance of balance.

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 03:54 PM
Out of college? Yeah. Coincidentally, many of them decide to "stay" in college by teaching there as a matter of fact. The Ivory Tower, you know?

Older than 30 or 35, paying real taxes and a real mortgage, with a real family? Not too many.

As opposed to those with the fake family, and fake taxes and a fake mortgage...

Kotter, ranting about teachers and their opinions. How anti-conformist of you!

BucEyedPea
04-01-2009, 04:18 PM
Oh yes, limited government, and taking issue with my Hamilton paraphrase which stated that because men are not angels, we need government.

No that was Madison who said that. All of Hamilton's ideas were rejected at the Constitutional Convention. ALL of THEM! It's a wonder he campaigned for it at all. Then as soon as it passed he quickly went about subverting the document to what he wanted originally.

BucEyedPea
04-01-2009, 04:19 PM
As opposed to those with the fake family, and fake taxes and a fake mortgage...

...and fake boobs? :) :D

BucEyedPea
04-01-2009, 04:22 PM
John Adams is another one who was of that line of thinking. I admit I only know that after watching the mini series. I'm kind of a dumbass, I mean, I do smoke cigarettes after all.

Beware of such a production without further reading anyway. John Adams was another federalist. ( not as in federalism)

BucEyedPea
04-01-2009, 04:24 PM
Hamilton and the Federalists were way over-rated; I myself, much prefer the Jeffersonian perspective when it comes to the matter of federalism.

Yes they were overrated. Not in their time though. They actually wanted more power but alas! There was a compromise. Still, the anti-federalists turned out to be right.

I much prefer the Jeffersonian/Jacksonian ideal... even if none of them were perfect.

patteeu
04-01-2009, 04:47 PM
C'mon Roy. We could say the same thing about the Republicans and this entire financial fiasco. Or is that somehow the Dem's fault too? Let's not pretend that there isn't 7 shades of corruption in each political party. Seriously. Until we do, it'll be more of the same with all the manipulation, and mind ****ing one can stand.

The democrats had almost 2 years to prevent a crisis from developing. What steps did they take? They've been in control of Fannie Mae for even longer, how'd that work out?

I'm not saying that this is exclusively a democrat-created problem, but you can't lay it at solely at the feet of Republicans either. One thing we can say for sure though is that it is a problem spawned by big government arrogance.

patteeu
04-01-2009, 04:52 PM
Legalize marijuana and tax it. Problem solved, at least in part.

Fact is this, Bush's tax cuts, while cheered by the masses, were fiscally reckless as the government had no plans to curb spending. So unless the government learns to live on a leaner budget, taxes have to go up unless you like the deficit and national debt spinning out of control. And we all know that the government, under either Republican or Democrat rule, is not reducing spending anytime soon, so mathematically, taxes have to go up to keep some semblance of balance.

Barack Obama's high tax plan is going to result in bigger deficits than the Republican alternative which is based on tax cuts according to the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/01/AR2009040102261.html?hpid=topnews).

memyselfI
04-01-2009, 05:28 PM
suckah!

Swanman
04-01-2009, 06:26 PM
Barack Obama's high tax plan is going to result in bigger deficits than the Republican alternative which is based on tax cuts according to the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/01/AR2009040102261.html?hpid=topnews).

Because it's printed means it must be true.

patteeu
04-01-2009, 06:40 PM
Because it's printed means it must be true.

As opposed to "because you really want to believe it means it must be true".

As if the Washington Post is a mouthpiece for conservatives.

banyon
04-01-2009, 07:03 PM
Ah, the naivete' of youth.... :shake:

The themes are not what you suggest, but rather:

1. Our country has improved over time, but it's not been because of "progressive" reforms...but rather individual liberty and freedom.

So you think that progressives don't value freedom and liberty? What are these historical instances to which you are referring?

2. Individual liberty and freedom, while crucial....are always relative the liberty and freedom of other people.

Hard not to agree with this.

3. A rational, and the best, government is one that can help maintain that balance without undue interference or intrusion....because it is interference and intrusion that bring about the irrational government that you complain of.

I think that there are probably farily many instances of where non "interference" and non "intrusion" were pretty irrational as well. Jefferson's refusal to import goods from France or England, Buchanan's asleep at the switch while the South organized and prepared rebel, and pretty Much Bush II's whole term (except when he wanted to start wars and interfere in other countries) all come to mind, certainly among others.

Swanman
04-01-2009, 07:24 PM
As opposed to "because you really want to believe it means it must be true".

As if the Washington Post is a mouthpiece for conservatives.

Fact is no one really knows what's going to happen. There are about 8 million wildcards that come into play to affect what's going to happen with the plan right now. I'm just going to take a wait and see approach to this whole thing and not run around in the streets shouting like an idiot that Obama is the socialist debbil.

Swanman
04-01-2009, 07:28 PM
Bullshit. The government is tapping the well they have been tapping time and time again since the 90's. They can give a **** about you being healthy. They know they can get away with taxing the **** out of tobacco and get away with it.

There is quite a bit of truth in that. The government, by and large, is a big dumb retarded animal (dems and repubs, both sides are retards), but it does understand simple things like many smokers will amputate limbs and sell them on the black market to get money for their cigarettes, no matter the price. So if you want the gift that keeps on giving from a tax revenue perspective, cigarettes are the ticket.

ROYC75
04-01-2009, 09:00 PM
"a smoking mirror". LMAO

Ooops ... Oh well.o:-)

wild1
04-01-2009, 09:04 PM
this doesn't really get my blood boiling, we should know who we are dealing with, and that everything that has a tax will be taxed more, and many things that don't have taxes will in the future, for that matter.

the trouble lies down the road when they eventually do get everyone to quit, and then they tax people who were never smokers to begin with, because there aren't any smokers left to pay the sin taxes.

so don't worry if you don't smoke, you'll be getting a stiff one out back from BHO just like everyone else.

patteeu
04-01-2009, 09:15 PM
Fact is no one really knows what's going to happen. There are about 8 million wildcards that come into play to affect what's going to happen with the plan right now. I'm just going to take a wait and see approach to this whole thing and not run around in the streets shouting like an idiot that Obama is the socialist debbil.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with your position if you were equally hard on massive spending increases as you are on the Bush tax cuts, but you aren't. Bush and the Republicans may not have gotten spending under control during their 6 year window, but Obama and the democrats are spending at levels that make Bush and the Republicans seem like penny pinching misers and they've managed to do it in only a few months. Whatever you think of the Republican deficits, they pale by comparison to the Obama deficits we will now experience and we'll get to enjoy them while paying much higher taxes at the same time. That's the worst of both worlds.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-01-2009, 09:20 PM
The democrats had almost 2 years to prevent a crisis from developing. What steps did they take? They've been in control of Fannie Mae for even longer, how'd that work out?

I'm not saying that this is exclusively a democrat-created problem, but you can't lay it at solely at the feet of Republicans either. One thing we can say for sure though is that it is a problem spawned by big government arrogance.

That pretty much perfectly sums up my thoughts. At some point we have to individually look across party lines and recognize the bullshit that lies at the feet of both organizations. Until a majority of us see it for what it is, we can never hope to make it any better.

Velvet_Jones
04-01-2009, 09:21 PM
Pretty much, Mr. Flopnuts. Your freedom to essentially give yourself cancer is still available to you, just at a higher price. The government is just encouraging you to live a healthier life, at the same time collecting money to do things like -- curing cancer.

Are you really this stupid or is this you shtick?

banyon
04-01-2009, 09:26 PM
Are you really this stupid or is this you shtick?

Que?

Jenson71
04-01-2009, 09:51 PM
Are you really this stupid or is this you shtick?

Are you too ****ing dense to understand when a person is being serious? Or is it just your schtick to comment on a poster's stupidity or a post's stupidity as you do so often? Do I have to put "I'm serious" after every ****ing post for you to finally get it and move to a discussion? I'll let you know now that I'm not going to do that work for you. Either figure it out and respond or don't say anything. I'm not going to help every child that has been left behind.

It's not too late to get a GED. Any jerk off can sit around and blow his load of senseless nothing into a thread, but for the world's sake we don't need another low comprehending dumbass cracking shit one liners.

alanm
04-01-2009, 10:46 PM
Problem is that people will quit smoking, but the government program the smoking tax was for won't go away. What gets taxed next? Are you going to hope that it isn't something you like to do?You can be damn sure Alcohol is being eyeballed at the moment. ROFL
I'm on my last carton of smokes at the moment. I refuse to pay the extortion fee any longer.

alanm
04-01-2009, 10:56 PM
QFT. If the tobacco taxes were going to something like roads or bridges we could all say, well, we'll have to do without a new bridge every other year now when the revenue gets low.

Instead it's going to fund health care, and when the tax's purpose of making people quit runs it's course we'll have a health care program sitting there with no funding.

F'ing brilliant.Unintended consequences are a mother f*cker. ROFL
The only thing the cig tax hike will promote is a boost to organized crime and black market cigarettes.

BigRedChief
04-02-2009, 06:22 AM
11 million kids have health insurance and smokers have to pay $1.00 more per pack seems to be a good trade off to me.;)

Simplex3
04-02-2009, 07:36 AM
11 million kids have health insurance and smokers have to pay $1.00 more per pack seems to be a good trade off to me.;)

What are you going to do for those 11M kids when the revenue from smoking taxes no longer covers their health care?

BigRedChief
04-02-2009, 07:39 AM
What are you going to do for those 11M kids when the revenue from smoking taxes no longer covers their health care?
Don't you read the papers? Obama's budget is going to pass and health care reform is on the way.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-02-2009, 07:52 AM
11 million kids have health insurance and smokers have to pay $1.00 more per pack seems to be a good trade off to me.;)

You must have kids and not smoke.

patteeu
04-02-2009, 07:55 AM
You must have kids and not smoke.

He's more committed than that. He has Obama eyes.

BigRedChief
04-02-2009, 08:03 AM
You must have kids and not smoke.
smoked for 13 years. One son who is 17.

Garcia Bronco
04-02-2009, 08:05 AM
11 million kids have health insurance and smokers have to pay $1.00 more per pack seems to be a good trade off to me.;)

It's a regressive tax and the money os going to kids who's parent can afford to provide health insurance for their children yet chose not to.

Mr. Kotter
04-02-2009, 10:51 AM
Hey guess what? All of the Founders were elitist. Most of them came from rich families, and had an elite education, a none of them completely trusted the mass of people. None of them were advocates of "freedom" as we have come to understand it today, that's for sure.

They were also great men who cared about freedom, Hamilton included.

So what was your original point again? Oh yes, limited government, and taking issue with my Hamilton paraphrase which stated that because men are not angels, we need government. And where are your tax rate posts these days? Is it Mr. Hyde today for you Mr. Kotter? Because I hate to break it to you, but progressive tax rates, minimum wage laws, and funding for public teachers is seen by some around here as an intrusive government.

If anyone can speak out of both sides of the mouth, here you are Mr. Kotter. It's worse than "moderate Roy" who warned us how we should vote Republican because otherwise the little people will get screwed. Now, we are all suffering.

Here's another great quote, perhaps from Mao Tse-tung, if you'd like. A man who can't stand for something will fall for anything.Nothing I've offered suggests I disagree with your portrayal of the founders, or federalism. I don't have to guess much these days. You are the one attempting, badly I might add, to make "educated" guesses.

That which you offer about the founding fathers, I already know. Duh. That you think it is news to me is amusing and evidence of your youth and naivete'.

Sure the founders valued "freedom," even Hamilton. Of course, the sticky wicket is "to what degree"--especially given the evolution of society. I'm comfortable saying, Jefferson (while perhaps surprised by the extent) would view modern freedom and democracy with favor. Given that Hamilton's proposals (even many of his "ideas") were rejected by his contemporaries, I'm also confident Hamilton would have viewed with disdain our current state as something approaching "mob rule." Both views are defensible, of course.

OTOH, what is indefensible....is the idea that federalism and pragmatic and effective governance are, somehow, mutually exclusive. They are not. At what point does pragmatic and effective governance become intrusive or overly burdensome...is the essence of political science.

What you see as "speaking out of both sides" of my mouth, or what you see as lacking a political philosophy is neither. It is the wisdom of seeing the world as it is, in shades of gray; rather than the naivete' of seeing the world through a dogmatic and ideological lens of socialism. Marx would be proud, son.

Alas, rest assured that age and experience usually tempers such ignorant idealism.

Donger
04-02-2009, 12:34 PM
You see, according to Cocteau's plan I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think; I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder - "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of gravy fries?" I WANT high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and BUCKETS of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener".

KC Dan
04-02-2009, 01:13 PM
Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener".
Now, be nice and don't bring GoChiefs into the discussion...

El Jefe
04-02-2009, 01:15 PM
I wouldn't trust Obama farther than I could throw him.

alanm
04-02-2009, 11:13 PM
You see, according to Cocteau's plan I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think; I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder - "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of gravy fries?" I WANT high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and BUCKETS of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener".

Dennis Leary. :thumb:

Raised On Riots
04-03-2009, 12:49 AM
My Federal tax just got cut in half, my weekly can of tobacco is going from $12.00 to $25.00, but the end balance still puts me ahead of the game.

And one more thing:

Are we Holland yet?

patteeu
04-03-2009, 05:24 AM
My Federal tax just got cut in half, my weekly can of tobacco is going from $12.00 to $25.00, but the end balance still puts me ahead of the game.

And one more thing:

Are we Holland yet?

You're going to pay on things like increased prices (especially energy prices), and that's before inflation (another form of hidden taxation).

Mr. Kotter
04-03-2009, 06:26 AM
My Federal tax just got cut in half, my weekly can of tobacco is going from $12.00 to $25.00, but the end balance still puts me ahead of the game.

And one more thing:

Are we Holland yet?


Holland? :spock:

No one wants to be Dutch...

We are going for France; we wanna be American FROGS, dude.

Adept Havelock
04-03-2009, 06:47 AM
You see, according to Cocteau's plan I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think; I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder - "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of gravy fries?" I WANT high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and BUCKETS of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener".

Mellow greetings, citizen. What seems to be your boggle?

Raised On Riots
04-03-2009, 11:34 AM
You're going to pay on things like increased prices (especially energy prices), and that's before inflation (another form of hidden taxation).
Right. But I rent with paid utilities, and the cost will not go up( I am being dead serious and certain on that matter ).

Holland? :spock:

No one wants to be Dutch...

We are going for France; we wanna be American FROGS, dude.

I don't want to BE Dutch, I just want their women and their non-dogmatic lifestyle and world outlook.
Also, I want my Nuro, my tracking implant, and my tatooed mark of the beast.

What does a guy gotta' do to get some service around here?!:shrug:

patteeu
04-03-2009, 01:58 PM
Right. But I rent with paid utilities, and the cost will not go up( I am being dead serious and certain on that matter ).

Rent control or Mom's basement?

Raised On Riots
04-03-2009, 03:39 PM
Rent control or Mom's basement?

The former, and superior bartering skills on my part.

TEX
04-03-2009, 03:43 PM
I guess cigarette taxes don't count. I understand that he was implying federal tax, payroll tax, etc. I don't care. He didn't quantify it, and I voted for him in part because of it. Now, less than 3 months into office my tax burden just went up by about $600 a year. I don't make half of 250k. What happened? And how much more of the tax burden will get shifted to nasty smokers? Better yet, who's next after everyone has been priced out of smoking?


COMPLY. OR WE WILL BREAK YOU FINANCIALLY.

What happened is YOU FELL FOR IT! LMAO
Just apply for food stamps or something to get even...

patteeu
04-03-2009, 07:58 PM
The former, and superior bartering skills on my part.

Congratulations. You'll still pay (albeit less than your fair share) when you use/buy anything that is dependent on energy.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-06-2009, 10:31 AM
What happened is YOU FELL FOR IT! LMAO
Just apply for food stamps or something to get even...

No way. They may steal my money, but I will not relinquish my integrity. Even if they show none.