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View Full Version : Int'l Issues Leftist Lies. Like in Chicago, do whatever it takes


HonestChieffan
04-06-2009, 08:10 PM
Not hardly. You may have heard Secretary Clinton or Senator Feinstein mention recently that 90% of guns used in crimes in Mexico come from the US. Nothing could be further from the truth, according to some great reporting done by William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott of FOX News.

ATF statistics shows that 83% of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could NOT be traced to the U.S.

An ATF spokeswoman, seeking to clarify Clinton et al's comments on the 90% figure, said the statistic "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

So how many are traced?

In 2007-2008, Mexico said it recovered 29,000 guns from crime scenes.

Only 11,000, or 32%, were sent to the US for tracing, because the others were obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

Of the 11,000 guns Mexico sent to the ATF for tracing, only 6,000, or 55%, were successfully traced.

Of that 6,000, 90% were traced to the US -- hence Clinton/Feinstein's 90% claim.

So in sum: 90% of the 55% of the 32% of guns found at Mexican crime scenes came from the US.

Mexico's crimes are overwhelmingly not carried out with American guns.

banyon
04-06-2009, 08:12 PM
William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott of FOX News

Man, they've got aome real "salt of the earth" guys writing these articles don't they?

Pass the grey Poupon!

HonestChieffan
04-06-2009, 08:59 PM
Attack the source, not the content. Stay on message. Good job.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-06-2009, 09:01 PM
Fox is hardly a source for genuine news.

HonestChieffan
04-06-2009, 09:44 PM
and the facts....remain facts.

banyon
04-06-2009, 09:45 PM
and the facts....remain facts.

poop remains poop

HonestChieffan
04-06-2009, 10:07 PM
Facts are normally irrelevant to you

Mr. Flopnuts
04-06-2009, 10:39 PM
Facts are normally irrelevant to you

They're not facts until you link a credible source. Please spare me the Fox News link.

HonestChieffan
04-06-2009, 10:44 PM
So facts that are facts are not facts till someone else does the work to prove it...

Mr. Flopnuts
04-06-2009, 10:47 PM
So facts that are facts are not facts till someone else does the work to prove it...

Not someone else. The person who claimed the facts in the first place.

alanm
04-07-2009, 12:00 AM
They're not facts until you link a credible source. Please spare me the Fox News link.Try NBC. Good luck. ROFL

Dave Lane
04-07-2009, 12:11 AM
So you think factories in Mexico made the guns? Or the guns never were in the US or what exactly is your point assuming you do indeed have on?

blaise
04-07-2009, 08:20 AM
So you think factories in Mexico made the guns? Or the guns never were in the US or what exactly is your point assuming you do indeed have on?

I'm thinking he's saying that the claim that 90% of the guns in Mexico come from the US is inaccurate, and that they may come from other places..

blaise
04-07-2009, 08:25 AM
Fox is hardly a source for genuine news.

Neither are Clinton and Feinstein.

Chief Henry
04-07-2009, 09:53 AM
poop remains poop Chicago poop is the worst.

VAChief
04-07-2009, 10:01 AM
Not hardly. You may have heard Secretary Clinton or Senator Feinstein mention recently that 90% of guns used in crimes in Mexico come from the US. Nothing could be further from the truth, according to some great reporting done by William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott of FOX News.

ATF statistics shows that 83% of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could NOT be traced to the U.S.

An ATF spokeswoman, seeking to clarify Clinton et al's comments on the 90% figure, said the statistic "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

So how many are traced?

In 2007-2008, Mexico said it recovered 29,000 guns from crime scenes.

Only 11,000, or 32%, were sent to the US for tracing, because the others were obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

Of the 11,000 guns Mexico sent to the ATF for tracing, only 6,000, or 55%, were successfully traced.

Of that 6,000, 90% were traced to the US -- hence Clinton/Feinstein's 90% claim.

So in sum: 90% of the 55% of the 32% of guns found at Mexican crime scenes came from the US.

Mexico's crimes are overwhelmingly not carried out with American guns.

I fail to see any lies accepting the source as fully factual. If indeed the claim is 90% of the traced guns came from the US then it seems accurate to me. Misleading, but accurate. A good example how statistics on the surface don't mean a whole lot without full context.

patteeu
04-07-2009, 10:37 AM
Fox is hardly a source for genuine news.

I know that Fox makes mistakes from time to time, but so do all the other networks. For the sake of argument, I'll stipulate that there is an editorial bias in Fox reporting that might rival that of the New York Times, but that's hardly a reason to dismiss reported facts out of hand. Go ahead and be skeptical about these numbers, but don't be more skeptical about them than you are about Hillary's 90% claim. Surely we can agree that most politicians have even more editorial bias in their "reports" than the NYT or FN.

patteeu
04-07-2009, 10:54 AM
I fail to see any lies accepting the source as fully factual. If indeed the claim is 90% of the traced guns came from the US then it seems accurate to me. Misleading, but accurate. A good example how statistics on the surface don't mean a whole lot without full context.

This is an important admission. Do you think that Hillary or Feinstein or Obama intended for their audiences to be aware of the full context? Did they even use the "traced guns" qualifier that you used when they made their comments? I bet you they didn't.

Radar Chief
04-07-2009, 11:21 AM
poop remains poop

Do you honestly believe the numbers put forth by Clinton and Feinstein?

Simplex3
04-07-2009, 11:27 AM
The violence in Mexico is pretty much our fault, but not because of any gun laws or lack thereof. It's because of our DRUG laws.

FishingRod
04-07-2009, 11:33 AM
It is pretty sad how low our expectations of truth have sunk that we have to argue if taken in a very particular context what they said was not entirely a lie. At least at Royals games they fill in all the blanks to paint a pretty picture.

Johnny is batting .325 against lefthanders on Tuesdays, when batting 3rd in the inning after a night game the previous day when the temperature is above 80 degrees.

VAChief
04-07-2009, 11:43 AM
This is an important admission. Do you think that Hillary or Feinstein or Obama intended for their audiences to be aware of the full context? Did they even use the "traced guns" qualifier that you used when they made their comments? I bet you they didn't.

I doubt they intended them to be aware of the full context either. Again, statistics are used all the time to suit whatever purpose you want. I don't know whether they used the traced guns are not, it wouldn't surprise me either way. Since there was a clarifying statement made later by ATF one could assume they misstated earlier, but unless there is a link to the exact statement I wouldn't know.

I don't like this kind of spin no matter which side it comes from, it is unnecessary and often it undermines the value of your position.

patteeu
04-07-2009, 12:26 PM
I doubt they intended them to be aware of the full context either. Again, statistics are used all the time to suit whatever purpose you want. I don't know whether they used the traced guns are not, it wouldn't surprise me either way. Since there was a clarifying statement made later by ATF one could assume they misstated earlier, but unless there is a link to the exact statement I wouldn't know.

I don't like this kind of spin no matter which side it comes from, it is unnecessary and often it undermines the value of your position.

In this case, it certainly undermines any value that their complaint about US guns had in my mind.

KC native
04-07-2009, 12:29 PM
In this case, it certainly undermines any value that their complaint about US guns had in my mind.

Unfortunately there is a problem with US guns getting to Mexico. I know someone who was paid to carry guns into Mexico and carry drugs back. Is it as bad as they say? Who knows. It's illegal for citizens to own guns in Mexico so they have to get them from somewhere and unfortunately a good portion of them come from here.

KC native
04-07-2009, 12:30 PM
The violence in Mexico is pretty much our fault, but not because of any gun laws or lack thereof. It's because of our DRUG laws.

This

VAChief
04-07-2009, 01:08 PM
In this case, it certainly undermines any value that their complaint about US guns had in my mind.

I would tend to agree with you there.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-07-2009, 01:14 PM
Try NBC. Good luck. ROFL

I'm not saying he's wrong, or lying about it. I'm just saying, you can't expect people to not be skeptical when you don't provide some kind of credible source.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-07-2009, 01:14 PM
Neither are Clinton and Feinstein.

I'm no liberal by any stretch of the imagination.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-07-2009, 01:16 PM
I know that Fox makes mistakes from time to time, but so do all the other networks. For the sake of argument, I'll stipulate that there is an editorial bias in Fox reporting that might rival that of the New York Times, but that's hardly a reason to dismiss reported facts out of hand. Go ahead and be skeptical about these numbers, but don't be more skeptical about them than you are about Hillary's 90% claim. Surely we can agree that most politicians have even more editorial bias in their "reports" than the NYT or FN.

Oh, I'm not. And we can definitely agree on your last statement. Most definitely.

banyon
04-07-2009, 06:08 PM
Do you honestly believe the numbers put forth by Clinton and Feinstein?

The OP doesn't have the original quote, nor what it's supposed to be compared to, so I don't have a basis to answer that one way or the other.

***SPRAYER
04-07-2009, 08:35 PM
Dear kind anti-American world, America has been terrible for 232 years. Even my wife was ashamed to be an American until recently, last November to be specific. Iím king now, my wife is proud of American for the first time in her life, and Iím with you on the subject of ďbad arrogant AmericaĒ and that horrible man, George Bush. We all hate America and Bush. We can build upon this common ground.

For the first time in world history, you can now like and trust America, because Iím not George Bush. Iím going to tax the American people into third world status, and buy your friendship with gifts from the American treasury, just like I bought voters with the table scraps of others, to win the election back home. I donít care what I have to do to that awful slave country; I am going to be popular all over the world no matter how much it costs American citizens. Iím your friendÖ

--Mister Giggles

Radar Chief
04-07-2009, 08:43 PM
The OP doesn't have the original quote, nor what it's supposed to be compared to, so I don't have a basis to answer that one way or the other.

Sounds to me like now would be a good time to go find the quote for yourself and prove how stupid the OP is. :shrug:

blaise
04-08-2009, 08:33 AM
I don't know that Clinton ever said 90% of the guns come from the U.S. She did say, when she visited Mexico, that there's too many guns going from the U.S. into Mexico- which is probably true. I don't remember her saying 90%, but I could be wrong.
I think, if anything, the 90% thing is more on shoddy reporting, or disingenuous reporting. The NY Times and others had articles about her Mexico trip and then later in the article the pieces cited a statistic that 90% of the guns came from the U.S., or they referenced a statement supposedly made by a Mexican official to that effect.
The 90% statistic and Clinton were linked in most articles, but I don't know that she ever actually said it.

Messier
04-08-2009, 08:57 AM
Dear kind anti-American world, America has been terrible for 232 years. Even my wife was ashamed to be an American until recently, last November to be specific. Iím king now, my wife is proud of American for the first time in her life, and Iím with you on the subject of ďbad arrogant AmericaĒ and that horrible man, George Bush. We all hate America and Bush. We can build upon this common ground.

For the first time in world history, you can now like and trust America, because Iím not George Bush. Iím going to tax the American people into third world status, and buy your friendship with gifts from the American treasury, just like I bought voters with the table scraps of others, to win the election back home. I donít care what I have to do to that awful slave country; I am going to be popular all over the world no matter how much it costs American citizens. Iím your friendÖ

--Mister Giggles

Knocked it out of the park!

You should sent this to Limbaugh, he might even read it on the air!

***SPRAYER
04-08-2009, 11:52 AM
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2009/04/detroit_has_mor.html

patteeu
04-08-2009, 11:55 AM
I don't know that Clinton ever said 90% of the guns come from the U.S. She did say, when she visited Mexico, that there's too many guns going from the U.S. into Mexico- which is probably true. I don't remember her saying 90%, but I could be wrong.
I think, if anything, the 90% thing is more on shoddy reporting, or disingenuous reporting. The NY Times and others had articles about her Mexico trip and then later in the article the pieces cited a statistic that 90% of the guns came from the U.S., or they referenced a statement supposedly made by a Mexican official to that effect.
The 90% statistic and Clinton were linked in most articles, but I don't know that she ever actually said it.

I haven't found a direct quote to know whether she qualified the number, but the reports I've seen suggest that she repeated the 90% figure to reporters on her plane during a trip to Mexico. To be fair to her, it could be that she didn't fully understand the qualifications around that number. Apparently, the BATF came up with the number and later had to make a public statement clarifying it, so it's at least possible that Hillary was relying on the woefully misleading statistic in good faith.

***SPRAYER
04-08-2009, 12:14 PM
http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/madche.png