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View Full Version : Economics Does history repeat itself?


KC native
04-08-2009, 03:44 PM
This is a cartoon from 1934 Chicago Tribune

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/1934-cartoonf.jpg

Garcia Bronco
04-08-2009, 03:46 PM
I just don't think it changes. You can make all the laws you want, but you can't fight human nature. Not in any kind of observable way over one lifetime or maybe even 10 lifetimes

KC native
04-08-2009, 03:47 PM
I just don't think it changes. You can make all the laws you want, but you can't fight human nature. Not in any kind of observable way over one lifetime or maybe even 10 lifetimes

You missed the joke.

Garcia Bronco
04-08-2009, 03:53 PM
You missed the joke.

They are talking about the Soviets?

KC native
04-08-2009, 03:54 PM
They are talking about the Soviets?

still missed it.

Donger
04-08-2009, 04:13 PM
No, Communists have been around for decades. They poke their heads out when it is convenient.

KC native
04-08-2009, 04:18 PM
No, Communists have been around for decades. They poke their heads out when it is convenient.

Missed it too.

Hint, it's not the cartoon in isolation.

Donger
04-08-2009, 04:22 PM
Missed it too.

Hint, it's not the cartoon in isolation.

You are attempting to draw parallels to 1934 and today regarding people being concerned that we were/are going down a socialist path. We were then and we are now.

KC native
04-08-2009, 04:23 PM
You are attempting to draw parallels to 1934 and today regarding people being concerned that we were/are going down a socialist path. We were then and we are now.

:thumb: I was really hoping Garcia was going to keep guessing.

Donger
04-08-2009, 04:26 PM
:thumb: I was really hoping Garcia was going to keep guessing.

I would bet that he knew what you getting at from the start.

Garcia Bronco
04-08-2009, 04:27 PM
You are attempting to draw parallels to 1934 and today regarding people being concerned that we were/are going down a socialist path. We were then and we are now.

I got that out of it, but gosh all we need is another world war to seal the deal

KC native
04-08-2009, 04:33 PM
I got that out of it, but gosh all we need is another world war to seal the deal

Suuuuuuuuure you did :p

Mojo Jojo
04-08-2009, 05:05 PM
I got that out of it, but gosh all we need is another world war to seal the deal

History proves that the "New Deal" was not working...in fact unemployment continued to grow until the first orders from England for war materials came in 1939/1940.
People love to point to the "New Deal" for turning around the US economy but the facts do not support that argument. In fact if you look at history the "New Deal" is very much like Hitler's rebuilding plan for Germany circa 1930's. Lots of money into public programs and building a nation's infrastructure.

SBK
04-08-2009, 05:08 PM
History does repeat itself, the problem is that people think what Obama is doing now actually worked when FDR did it.

Mojo Jojo
04-08-2009, 05:10 PM
History does repeat itself, the problem is that people think what Obama is doing now actually worked when FDR did it.

Bingo!!! We have a winner!!!! Please don't let the public school teachers or University Profs read this or they will go nuts.

Taco John
04-08-2009, 05:22 PM
In the game of Jenga, history repeats itself again and again and again as the actors in the game work to build the largest tower that they possibly can without the entire structure collapsing. With some foresight, and a little bit of luck, the participants can actually get the tower impressively high. Eventually, though, the height of the tower is unsustainable by the structure beneath, and the whole thing comes crashing down.

SBK
04-08-2009, 05:23 PM
Bingo!!! We have a winner!!!! Please don't let the public school teachers or University Profs read this or they will go nuts.

Around here it's the true believers that hunt for posts like that.

SBK
04-08-2009, 05:24 PM
This is a cartoon from 1934 Chicago Tribune

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/1934-cartoonf.jpg


The amazing thing here is that it would seem the Chicago Tribune once was a supporter of capitalism. Who knew?

patteeu
04-08-2009, 06:09 PM
You are attempting to draw parallels to 1934 and today regarding people being concerned that we were/are going down a socialist path. We were then and we are now.

I'll vote for this one.

Jenson71
04-08-2009, 06:56 PM
History proves that the "New Deal" was not working...in fact unemployment continued to grow until the first orders from England for war materials came in 1939/1940.
People love to point to the "New Deal" for turning around the US economy but the facts do not support that argument. In fact if you look at history the "New Deal" is very much like Hitler's rebuilding plan for Germany circa 1930's. Lots of money into public programs and building a nation's infrastructure.

No, history does not prove that the New Deal was not working. There is evidence that the New Deal did accomplish things, and there is evidence that the New Deal was not perfect by any means.

The opposition of the New Deal usually comes not with saying that FDR did not do enough (although there certainly are those who say that), but usually we hear today that FDR should not have done anything. Only then would the economy have recovered, and things would have been fine.

This is hardly an argument though. We have no evidence that the economy would have rebounded just as well without the New Deal as with the New Deal. Proponents for this can only deal on a theoretical model, "The economy always rebounds. The free market always comes through." Similarily, if things had gotten worse, I could theoretically argue that there would have been a communist revolution. Although your opinion may disagree with Roosevelt's actions, we simply do not know if that would have happened. It's not proof, it's merely, "I think the economy would have rebounded shortly after, and the results would have been the same." Even taking into account WWII, you can't argue that FDR should not have done anything because WWII got the economy back into swing, simply for the fact that FDR, and no one else either, had no idea there would be a WWII that would have increased government money into war-time industrial production.

Let's deal with your facts - you say unemployment continued to grow throughout the New Deal. This isn't all the way true. It dropped, actually, and then picked up a little right before WWII. People disagree over why this happened, but policies were a part of it.

There is also a parallel relationship between the rise of government spending and GDP over the years that is more evidence the New Deal helped.

It's also important to note that there was actually a small amount of time between the New Deal and WWII - really 6-7 years. And it's not like everyone jumped on board of the New Deal. There were many opponents, including the Supreme Court that would initially strike down ND acts as unconstitutional. FDR even had people in his own party oppose the ND - like my good friend and Catholic, Al Smith. We are really judging a small framework as being totally successful or not. In reality, it put a lot of people back to work, it helped the rural farming families, it put a lot of public works programs together, and it definitely helped the overall feeling of our country as we headed into WWII. Despite what a lot of newspaper editorialists say, the New Deal did a lot of good. I'm not saying it was perfect, or even had the chance to be perfect, but I am suggesting that you not dismiss the knowledge of the high school teachers and University professors you are so eager to dismiss. Sometimes they do know what they're talking about.

Last point: Your comparison to Nazi Germany is intriguing. I suppose you use it not because Hitler really helped the Germany economy (remember, all the talk we've heard lately about the wheelbarrows and the Weimar Republic?), but because Hitler was a bad guy, and bad guy's can't do anything right. Even if Hitler's economic policies were designed to strictly build up an army, it's hard to parallel that the New Deal didn't work and was actually like Hitler's economics, and still maintain that Hitler's economics were fairly productive. Do you see the contradiction there?

KC native
04-08-2009, 08:26 PM
History proves that the "New Deal" was not working...in fact unemployment continued to grow until the first orders from England for war materials came in 1939/1940.
People love to point to the "New Deal" for turning around the US economy but the facts do not support that argument. In fact if you look at history the "New Deal" is very much like Hitler's rebuilding plan for Germany circa 1930's. Lots of money into public programs and building a nation's infrastructure.

Jenson already corrected your resuscitation of the recent right wing meme that the New Deal didn't end the Great Depression.

I'm picking a bone with your "comparison" to Hitler's plan. Hitler's plan required slave labor and conquest to fuel it. With out that his fascist economy would have collapsed. To even insinuate that Obama's stimulus plans are in any way related to Hitler is fucking retarded.

splatbass
04-09-2009, 02:19 AM
History proves that the "New Deal" was not working...in fact unemployment continued to grow until the first orders from England for war materials came in 1939/1940.


Most agree that WWII helped end the depression. How? GOVERNMENT SPENDING ON A VERY HIGH LEVEL.