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HonestChieffan
04-08-2009, 09:22 PM
So.

Obama is so interested in fixing unemployment and getting people back to work, he plans to make every (immigrant) a legal citizen....wowwwwww...wait now...how does that help get the legal citizens back to work?

Ohh I get it, if we give the vote to every illegal in western Kansas and western Nebraska and eastern Colorado, the old republican strongholds will be broken and democrats will rein forever. Hope everyone is ready for Spanish classes. We are gonna need it.




http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/09/us/politics/09immig.html?_r=1&hp

Obama to Push Immigration Bill as One Priority
By JULIA PRESTON
Published: April 8, 2009

While acknowledging that the recession makes the political battle more difficult, President Obama plans to begin addressing the country’s immigration system this year, including looking for a path for illegal immigrants to become legal, a senior administration official said on Wednesday.


Representative Luis V. Gutierrez, center, has been visiting churches to build support for a bill.

Mr. Obama will frame the new effort — likely to rouse passions on all sides of the highly divisive issue — as “policy reform that controls immigration and makes it an orderly system,” said the official, Cecilia Muñoz, deputy assistant to the president and director of intergovernmental affairs in the White House.

Mr. Obama plans to speak publicly about the issue in May, administration officials said, and over the summer he will convene working groups, including lawmakers from both parties and a range of immigration groups, to begin discussing possible legislation for as early as this fall.

Some White House officials said that immigration would not take precedence over the health care and energy proposals that Mr. Obama has identified as priorities. But the timetable is consistent with pledges Mr. Obama made to Hispanic groups in last year’s campaign.

He said then that comprehensive immigration legislation, including a plan to make legal status possible for an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants, would be a priority in his first year in office. Latino voters turned out strongly for Mr. Obama in the election.

“He intends to start the debate this year,” Ms. Muñoz said.

But with the economy seriously ailing, advocates on different sides of the debate said that immigration could become a polarizing issue for Mr. Obama in a year when he has many other major battles to fight.

Opponents, mainly Republicans, say they will seek to mobilize popular outrage against any effort to legalize unauthorized immigrant workers while so many Americans are out of jobs.

Democratic legislative aides said that opening a full-fledged debate this year on immigration, particularly with health care as a looming priority, could weigh down the president’s domestic agenda.

Debate is still under way among administration officials about the precise timing and strategy. For example, it is unclear who will take up the Obama initiative in Congress.

No serious legislative talks on the issue are expected until after some of Mr. Obama’s other priorities have been debated, Congressional aides said.

Just last month, Mr. Obama openly recognized that immigration is a potential minefield.

"I know this is an emotional issue; I know it’s a controversial issue,” he told an audience at a town meeting on March 18 in Costa Mesa, Calif. “I know that the people get real riled up politically about this."

But, he said, immigrants who are long-time residents but lack legal status “have to have some mechanism over time to get out of the shadows.”

The White House is calculating that public support for fixing the immigration system, which is widely acknowledged to be broken, will outweigh opposition from voters who argue that immigrants take jobs from Americans. A groundswell among voters opposed to legal status for illegal immigrants led to the defeat in 2007 of a bipartisan immigration bill that was strongly supported by President George W. Bush.

Administration officials said that Mr. Obama’s plan would not add new workers to the American work force, but that it would recognize millions of illegal immigrants who have already been working here. Despite the deep recession, there is no evidence of any wholesale exodus of illegal immigrant workers, independent studies of census data show.

Opponents of legalization legislation were incredulous at the idea that Mr. Obama would take on immigration when economic pain for Americans is so widespread.

“It just doesn’t seem rational that any political leader would say, let’s give millions of foreign workers permanent access to U.S. jobs when we have millions of Americans looking for jobs,” said Roy Beck, executive director of NumbersUSA, a group that favors reduced immigration. Mr. Beck predicted that Mr. Obama would face “an explosion” if he proceeded this year.

“It’s going to be, ‘You’re letting them keep that job, when I could have that job,’ ” he said.

In broad outlines, officials said, the Obama administration favors legislation that would bring illegal immigrants into the legal system by recognizing that they violated the law, and imposing fines and other penalties to fit the offense. The legislation would seek to prevent future illegal immigration by strengthening border enforcement and cracking down on employers who hire illegal immigrants, while creating a national system for verifying the legal immigration status of new workers.

But administration officials emphasized that many details remained to be debated.

Opponents of a legalization effort said that if the Obama administration maintained the enforcement pressure initiated by Mr. Bush, the recession would force many illegal immigrants to return home. Dan Stein, the president of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, said it would be “politically disastrous” for Mr. Obama to begin an immigration initiative at this time.

Anticipating opposition, Mr. Obama has sought to shift some of the political burden to advocates for immigrants, by encouraging them to build support among voters for when his proposal goes to Congress.

That is why Representative Luis V. Gutierrez, a Democrat from Mr. Obama’s hometown, Chicago, has been on the road most weekends since last December, traveling far outside his district to meetings in Hispanic churches, hoping to generate something like a civil rights movement in favor of broad immigration legislation.

Mr. Gutierrez was in Philadelphia on Saturday at the Iglesia Internacional, a big Hispanic evangelical church in a former warehouse, the 17th meeting in a tour that has included cities as far flung as Providence, R.I.; Atlanta; Miami; and San Francisco. Greeted with cheers and amens by a full house of about 350 people, Mr. Gutierrez, shifting fluidly between Spanish and English, called for immigration policies to preserve family unity, the strategic theme of his campaign.

At each meeting, speakers from the community, mainly citizens, tell stories of loved ones who were deported or of delays and setbacks in the immigration system. Illegal immigrants have not been invited to speak.

Mr. Gutierrez’s meetings have all been held in churches, both evangelical and Roman Catholic, with clergy members from various denominations, including in several places Muslim imams. At one meeting in Chicago, Cardinal Francis George, president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, officiated.

One speaker on Saturday, Jill Flores, said that her husband, Felix, an immigrant from Mexico who crossed the border illegally, had applied for legal status five years ago but had not been able to gain it even though she is an American citizen, as are their two children. Now, Ms. Flores said, she fears that her husband will have to leave for Mexico and will not be permitted to return for many years.

In an interview, Mr. Gutierrez rejected the idea that the timing is bad for an immigration debate. “There is never a wrong time for us,” he said. “Families are being divided and destroyed, and they need help now.”

Ultra Peanut
04-08-2009, 09:23 PM
ROCK

banyon
04-08-2009, 09:25 PM
I thought slurs were bannable offenses?

HonestChieffan
04-08-2009, 09:44 PM
I thought slurs were bannable offenses?

I'm sure you are aware the term comes from the federal government program called "Operation Wetback" started in 1954. That does not excuse the use of the term I suppose but for those who only know it as a "slur" as you seem to see it, it does come from a federal program headed by the commissioner of Immigration and Naturalization Service and implemented in Texas.

But then im sure you were aware of that.

wild1
04-08-2009, 09:45 PM
Madness. Utter madness.

Taco John
04-08-2009, 09:46 PM
So.

Obama is so interested in fixing unemployment and getting people back to work, he plans to make every wetback a legal citizen....



Fuck off you racist asshole.

KC native
04-08-2009, 09:47 PM
So.

Obama is so interested in fixing unemployment and getting people back to work, he plans to make every wetback a legal citizen....wowwwwww...wait now...how does that help get the legal citizens back to work?

Ohh I get it, if we give the vote to every illegal in western Kansas and western Nebraska and eastern Colorado, the old republican strongholds will be broken and democrats will rein forever. Hope everyone is ready for Spanish classes. We are gonna need it.


Excuse me, but PHUCK YOU. You know damn well you are intended that to be a slur. You just showed your true colors you racist prick.

wild1
04-08-2009, 09:48 PM
Nice work, HonestChiefFan. You staged and executed the distraction perfectly

banyon
04-08-2009, 09:51 PM
I'm sure you are aware the term comes from the federal government program called "Operation Wetback" started in 1954. That does not excuse the use of the term I suppose but for those who only know it as a "slur" as you seem to see it, it does come from a federal program headed by the commissioner of Immigration and Naturalization Service and implemented in Texas.

But then im sure you were aware of that.

Yes, I'm also aware that this historical factoid has nothing at all to do with the patently racist way you used the term and doesn't legitimize it in the least.

Taco put it more succinctly though.

banyon
04-08-2009, 09:51 PM
Nice work, HonestChiefFan. You staged and executed the distraction perfectly

You think that's a legit debating tactic? :spock:

wild1
04-08-2009, 09:52 PM
You think that's a legit debating tactic? :spock:

i was just remarking on how his vulgar display of moron ensured no one would talk about the immigration amnesty insanity that is coming down the pike

banyon
04-08-2009, 09:59 PM
i was just remarking on how his vulgar display of moron ensured no one would talk about the immigration amnesty insanity that is coming down the pike

Yeah, he picked about the worst way possible to try to engage a serious debate on an issue.

Jenson71
04-08-2009, 10:01 PM
If you have children, it is imperative that you make sure they learn Spanish. This is a development you can not fight. They will have such a huge step above everyone else. I took some Spanish in high school but was too ignorant to know of its importance. Now I think I am going to take further college courses even after I graduate.

Ebolapox
04-08-2009, 10:02 PM
ya know, I could care less whether we make them citizens or not. I would just like to see them paying into the tax system and not just poaching on the resources of taxpayers while paying no taxes.

HonestChieffan
04-08-2009, 10:02 PM
Yeah, he picked about the worst way possible to try to engage a serious debate on an issue. Pardon everyone for not excusing it with the casual nonchalance you appear to have treated it with.

When have you engaged in any serious debate? When you have you usually end up with some name calling and then go off and sulk. Pardon me but your rage over the term is as much a ploy to deflect from the issue as Obamas rush to pass bills to save the world was a ploy to get all the pork in before anyone noticed.

Taco John
04-08-2009, 10:03 PM
When have you engaged in any serious debate? When you have you usually end up with some name calling and then go off and sulk. Pardon me but your rage over the term is as much a ploy to deflect from the issue as Obamas rush to pass bills to save the world was a ploy to get all the pork in before anyone noticed.



Banyon is a far better debate tactician on this site than you've ever been.

Jenson71
04-08-2009, 10:06 PM
ya know, I could care less whether we make them citizens or not. I would just like to see them paying into the tax system and not just poaching on the resources of taxpayers while paying no taxes.

The reality is illegal immigrants make up probably .05% of our population and work in poor conditions for small wages. The attention and almost hatred put on them is so out of proportion it's unbelievable and of course, poorly misplaced. We need to legalize them to protect everybody's interests: theirs and the American citizen worker. An exploitative owning class pushes everybody under the water to lift themselves up -- citizens and non-.

DaneMcCloud
04-08-2009, 10:09 PM
I can't wait for this to happen. Maybe it'll get my state out of the red.

But

I think it's imperative that after the millions of illegal Mexican immigrants are granted amnesty that Congress enact a National Language Bill, requiring every American to speak English.

Without that bill, we're going to see a further widening of the haves and have-nots.

Ebolapox
04-08-2009, 10:09 PM
The reality is illegal immigrants make up probably .05% of our population and work in poor conditions for small wages. The attention and almost hatred put on them is so out of proportion it's unbelievable. We need to legalize them to protect everybody's interests: theirs and the American citizen worker. An exploitative owning class pushes everybody under the water to lift themselves up -- citizens and non-.

oh, absolutely. for every story of an illegal immigrant's kid complaining about not getting a free scholarship, there's 100 stories of illegal immigrants getting paid shitty wages and being treated like shit.

DaneMcCloud
04-08-2009, 10:11 PM
The reality is illegal immigrants make up probably .05% of our population

Uh, apparently, you haven't visited Los Angeles lately (or California in general).

Three to four million illegals enter every year. If the Census reports that there are 42 million currently living in California, I'd dare to say to that it's closer to 52 million.

Taco John
04-08-2009, 10:13 PM
I think it's imperative that after the millions of illegal Mexican immigrants are granted amnesty that Congress enact a National Language Bill, requiring every American to speak English.




It will never happen. The First Amendment protects everybody's right to free speech.


"Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech..."

Ebolapox
04-08-2009, 10:15 PM
It will never happen. The First Amendment protects everybody's right to free speech.


"Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech..."

how the fuck does 'free speech' have ANYTHING to do with speaking spanish rather than english?

Jenson71
04-08-2009, 10:31 PM
Uh, apparently, you haven't visited Los Angeles lately (or California in general).

Three to four million illegals enter every year. If the Census reports that there are 42 million currently living in California, I'd dare to say to that it's closer to 52 million.

The last research I've looked up estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in America (this might be low estimate, though). If there are over 300 million total, that's less than 5 percent of the population (not .05 as I incorrectly said above). Yes, there are probably more in California and other border states. But many are also moving to the midwest. You'll recall that the largest raid last summer was right near my home in Waterloo, Iowa. The Homeland Security raided the place, families being separated, lives really torn apart (not to mention the conditions they were living in before the raid - hands getting caught in machinery and other numerous accidents). I'm not trying to make HS the bad guy, just pointing out the reality.

As long as people are able to exploit them, they will come for jobs because it's better than home. That's why we need to find a way to help our neighbors, not turn our backs on them.

It's a very tough situation. I have very few answers. But one thing I can say for certain is that more Mexicans will continue to move here, legally or not, so we might as well try to make it easy and beneficial for them to live or work here legally. Because helping them helps everyone, the American worker including.

Jenson71
04-08-2009, 10:39 PM
oh, absolutely. for every story of an illegal immigrant's kid complaining about not getting a free scholarship, there's 100 stories of illegal immigrants getting paid shitty wages and being treated like shit.

Yes, they are in a tough situation. On one hand, they are just trying to support and help their family, something not a few Americans should learn something about. On the other, they have very few legal rights, and less public sympathy, as noted by our partisan, comfortable, leisured thread poster who spews his racism because he's too damn ignorant to understand who the real threats to American workers are.

HonestChieffan
04-08-2009, 10:44 PM
As an "illegal alien" would you grant any and all "illegal aliens" that same level of non chalance and welcome any and all people from any place who choses to enter the country illegally?

Your sure making it pretty lax...why have any immigration laws at all?

WoodDraw
04-08-2009, 10:47 PM
how the **** does 'free speech' have ANYTHING to do with speaking spanish rather than english?

Once you're protected by the constitution, you can tell the government to go blow themselves in whatever language you please. You can't make it mandatory for all those living in America to learn English, but you could make it part of the immigration process.

Taco John
04-08-2009, 10:49 PM
how the **** does 'free speech' have ANYTHING to do with speaking spanish rather than english?


Is this a serious question? I mean - you seriously are having a hard time understanding this? Which part are you having trouble with? The "Congress shall make no law" part or the "abridging the freedom of speech" part? Or are you having trouble understanding that language is speech? It couldn't be that. I'll give you enough credit to accept that you understand that language is speech.

Taco John
04-08-2009, 10:52 PM
As long as people are able to exploit them, they will come for jobs because it's better than home. That's why we need to find a way to help our neighbors, not turn our backs on them.





Exploit them? What are you talking about? They're coming here TO EXPLOIT US. Or to put it in your terms - they are coming here to be exploited.

Why do you have to taint this situation with your exploitation ideology? It's very shallow and shows a fundamental lack of understanding.

Taco John
04-08-2009, 10:53 PM
As an "illegal alien" would you grant any and all "illegal aliens" that same level of non chalance and welcome any and all people from any place who choses to enter the country illegally?

Your sure making it pretty lax...why have any immigration laws at all?

Go to hell racist.

SBK
04-08-2009, 10:54 PM
I think it's imperative that after the millions of illegal Mexican immigrants are granted amnesty that Congress enact a National Language Bill, requiring every American to speak English.

Without that bill, we're going to see a further widening of the haves and have-nots.

I work with a lot of Spanish speaking people, and I can tell you from my experience--the people who don't know English are true have nots. The way they are treated (by very few) is insane, the stories I hear from these folks are tragic.

If you live here and don't speak English 99% of the time you are screwed.

And I'll add, anyone who thinks Hispanics are lazy is insane. Hardest working people in America today.

Demonpenz
04-08-2009, 10:55 PM
they should learn to speak english and have min liability insurance on their cars

SBK
04-08-2009, 10:58 PM
Yes, they are in a tough situation. On one hand, they are just trying to support and help their family, something not a few Americans should learn something about. On the other, they have very few legal rights, and less public sympathy, as noted by our partisan, comfortable, leisured thread poster who spews his racism because he's too damn ignorant to understand who the real threats to American workers are.

The fault with this lies in the government's hands. Every person that came to America did it to make a better life for their family. From the 1600's to today. I don't have a problem with anyone that came here to do that. Whether they came here legally or not. It's no secret that our government didn't have a problem with anyone and everyone pouring through our borders anyway they could.

However, I have a huge problem with the government choosing not to enforce the laws of this country thereby allowing people who came here to harm us, harm others, or commit crimes in.

SBK
04-08-2009, 10:59 PM
Also, defining a race of people as was done here is no different than the term rappers use in all their music today. Very, very bad form.

Jenson71
04-08-2009, 11:10 PM
Exploit them? What are you talking about? They're coming here TO EXPLOIT US. Or to put it in your terms - they are coming here to be exploited.

I have trouble putting these two together, but I want you to mean that because they are exploited, we end up being exploited. I would agree with you, but I don't think that is what you mean. They aren't coming here to exploit us, unless you view their cheap labor as exploiting the meatpacking industry leaders. They are coming here to get a job. That is the fundamental reason for them coming here. Not religious reasons, not political refugee reasons, not ethnic genocide. They can earn a better wage here at $4 an hour or whatever, then they would in Mexico at 60 pesos a day. What's that? A few dollars a day? It is entirely about exploitation. The corporation buys cheap illegal labor for $4 and avoids paying legal workers for $10 an hour. In the end, the meatpacking owner wins, the American worker loses, and the Mexican worker, if not deported, barely comes out even and maybe loses a limb in the process.

But where does the hatred go to? The exploitative capitalist right? No, the w------s and sp--s, of course.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-08-2009, 11:11 PM
I work with a lot of Spanish speaking people, and I can tell you from my experience--the people who don't know English are true have nots. The way they are treated (by very few) is insane, the stories I hear from these folks are tragic.

If you live here and don't speak English 99% of the time you are screwed.

And I'll add, anyone who thinks Hispanics are lazy is insane. Hardest working people in America today.

When I lived in NC there were more than a few people there that I heard refer to them like they were property. "I'll just have my Mexican handle it in the morning."

Being raised in Seattle, I was more than a little shocked the first couple of times I heard it.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-08-2009, 11:12 PM
Oh, and way to show those redneck republican colors. No one can say you're not an honest Chiefs fan.

SBK
04-08-2009, 11:16 PM
When I lived in NC there were more than a few people there that I heard refer to them like they were property. "I'll just have my Mexican handle it in the morning."

Being raised in Seattle, I was more than a little shocked the first couple of times I heard it.

A friend of mine down here told me people will hire daylaborers (I'm sure they've got to be illegals) that stand around and wait for work--then after their done they'll tell them to leave or they'll call the cops. So these guys will work all day for nothing.

People that do that deserve a kick in the balls. With steel toed boots.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-08-2009, 11:20 PM
A friend of mine down here told me people will hire daylaborers (I'm sure they've got to be illegals) that stand around and wait for work--then after their done they'll tell them to leave or they'll call the cops. So these guys will work all day for nothing.

People that do that deserve a kick in the balls. With steel toed boots.

That is fucking disgusting. I honestly don't think they should be rewarded for breaking the rules, but the fact that someone out there can manipulate themselves to think this is okay is just fucking gross.

KC native
04-08-2009, 11:25 PM
A friend of mine down here told me people will hire daylaborers (I'm sure they've got to be illegals) that stand around and wait for work--then after their done they'll tell them to leave or they'll call the cops. So these guys will work all day for nothing.

People that do that deserve a kick in the balls. With steel toed boots.

Happens all the time here in Texas. Those people definitely deserve a kick in the balls.

Taco John
04-08-2009, 11:29 PM
I have trouble putting these two together, but I want you to mean that because they are exploited, we end up being exploited. I would agree with you, but I don't think that is what you mean. They aren't coming here to exploit us, unless you view their cheap labor as exploiting the meatpacking industry leaders. They are coming here to get a job. That is the fundamental reason for them coming here. Not religious reasons, not political refugee reasons, not ethnic genocide. They can earn a better wage here at $4 an hour or whatever, then they would in Mexico at 60 pesos a day. What's that? A few dollars a day? It is entirely about exploitation. The corporation buys cheap illegal labor for $4 and avoids paying legal workers for $10 an hour. In the end, the meatpacking owner wins, the American worker loses, and the Mexican worker, if not deported, barely comes out even and maybe loses a limb in the process.

But where does the hatred go to? The exploitative capitalist right? No, the w------s and sp--s, of course.


You're using the term "exploited" out of context. You're using it in the context that they're being treated unfairly. This is not the case. They are taking advantage of the situation that is being offered to them. They are exploiting our system to their benefit. They are coming here to exploit our system and get rich by their standards. Many of them go home in the "offseason" and live the high life.

To view illegal aliens as victims of "exploitaton" is a crooked and naive viewpoint.

HonestChieffan
04-08-2009, 11:34 PM
I love the "I have a friend" stories....I have a friend who hires 2-3 mexican laborers to work on his ranch northwest of Ft Worth and he pays 8-12 per hour and glad to do it for the quality of work and the willingness they have to work hard. The fact is he could never find anyone else to do the work.

Now thats not to say every illegal is paid 8-12 bucks an hour. But lets not project that every person who hires these people is out to screw them. There are both out there, its not all one way.

My house was painted by legal, not English speaking Mexicans. Legal...here with work permits and paying into Social Security and paying income tax. Ive never had a better job or seen people work as hard as they did. I learned a few things from that experience...one was that when people bitch about illegals (meaning all Mexican people in most cases) getting social security benefits, we fail to remember many pay into SS and will never collect a dime if the move home as many do.

Taco John
04-08-2009, 11:34 PM
I love the "I have a friend" stories....I have a friend who hires 2-3 mexican laborers to work on his ranch northwest of Ft Worth and he pays 8-12 per hour and glad to do it for the quality of work and the willingness they have to work hard. The fact is he could never find anyone else to do the work.

Now thats not to say every illegal is paid 8-12 bucks an hour. But lets not project that every person who hires these people is out to screw them. There are both out there, its not all one way.

My house was painted by legal, not English speaking Mexicans. Legal...here with work permits and paying into Social Security and paying income tax. Ive never had a better job or seen people work as hard as they did. I learned a few things from that experience...one was that when people bitch about illegals (meaning all Mexican people in most cases) getting social security benefits, we fail to remember many pay into SS and will never collect a dime if the move home as many do.



Shut up you ****ing racist pice of shit. No one wants to hear from your stupid ass.

Jenson71
04-08-2009, 11:42 PM
I love the "I have a friend" stories....I have a friend who hires 2-3 mexican laborers to work on his ranch northwest of Ft Worth and he pays 8-12 per hour and glad to do it for the quality of work and the willingness they have to work hard. The fact is he could never find anyone else to do the work.

Now thats not to say every illegal is paid 8-12 bucks an hour. But lets not project that every person who hires these people is out to screw them. There are both out there, its not all one way.

Take a guess as to which it is the majority of the time.

My house was painted by legal, not English speaking Mexicans. Legal...here with work permits and paying into Social Security and paying income tax. Ive never had a better job or seen people work as hard as they did. I learned a few things from that experience...one was that when people bitch about illegals (meaning all Mexican people in most cases) getting social security benefits, we fail to remember many pay into SS and will never collect a dime if the move home as many do.

LMAO Yeah, good luck digging out of this hole. "I really like the wetbacks, guys."

Ebolapox
04-08-2009, 11:44 PM
Is this a serious question? I mean - you seriously are having a hard time understanding this? Which part are you having trouble with? The "Congress shall make no law" part or the "abridging the freedom of speech" part? Or are you having trouble understanding that language is speech? It couldn't be that. I'll give you enough credit to accept that you understand that language is speech.

oh, I absolutely understand that language=speech.

the issue comes to the fact that it feels like you're attempting to take the spirit of the law (right to free speech) and using it to your own gain.

I'll use wiki (yeah, I know, it's wiki. I could find a better source, but I'm lazy at this moment) for how I've always interpreted 'freedom of speech.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak freely without censorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship) or limitation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limitation). The synonymous term freedom of expression is sometimes used to denote not only freedom of verbal speech but any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression are closely related to, yet distinct from, the concept of freedom of thought (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_thought). In practice, the right to freedom of speech is not absolute in any country and the right is commonly subject to limitations, such as on "hate speech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech)".

I guess you could make an argument that you can't 'force' those who can't speak English to learn or 'get out.'

to me, though, the spirit of the law has always meant that it's freedom to express ideas that may not be status quo. the freedom to use verbal and/or written language to say whatever you want to say, regardless of how offensive it may be or how controversial it may be. see: lenny bruce, george carlin (to name a few comedians who pushed the line), and MANY others.

could you interpret it as freedom of type of language used? I suppose so. that's the brilliant part about a living constitution. it can be interpreted many ways, for many reasons.

Jenson71
04-08-2009, 11:48 PM
You're using the term "exploited" out of context. You're using it in the context that they're being treated unfairly. This is not the case. They are taking advantage of the situation that is being offered to them. They are exploiting our system to their benefit. They are coming here to exploit our system and get rich by their standards. Many of them go home in the "offseason" and live the high life.

To view illegal aliens as victims of "exploitaton" is a crooked and naive viewpoint.

I use exploit exactly as it means: to make use of something (in this case, someone) unfairly for one's own advantage. The meatpacking owner buys labor at a wage deemed unfair for American standards to save costs. Every worker in America, even those with just a working permit and no citizenship, must be paid a fair wage, in most cases a minimum wage unless it's in a service industry. The meatpacking owner unlawfully goes around that. The exploitation is 100% on the backs of the owner.

SBK
04-08-2009, 11:51 PM
You're using the term "exploited" out of context. You're using it in the context that they're being treated unfairly. This is not the case. They are taking advantage of the situation that is being offered to them. They are exploiting our system to their benefit. They are coming here to exploit our system and get rich by their standards. Many of them go home in the "offseason" and live the high life.

To view illegal aliens as victims of "exploitaton" is a crooked and naive viewpoint.

This is true.

Taco John
04-09-2009, 01:01 AM
oh, I absolutely understand that language=speech.

Thats good. Then you understand that Congress shall not abridge the right of it, correct?


the issue comes to the fact that it feels like you're attempting to take the spirit of the law (right to free speech) and using it to your own gain.


My own gain? I don't speak any language but English. I don't gain anything by allowing others the freedom of speech except for my own freedom of speech.



I'll use wiki (yeah, I know, it's wiki. I could find a better source, but I'm lazy at this moment) for how I've always interpreted 'freedom of speech.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech


No need to give any interpretation of speech. I think that we all understand that any communication that comes from out mouths qualifies as "speech." I'm certain that neither of us are confused on this point. And I don't think we're confused about the word "Freedom" here. These are both really simple terms to understand without needing to go to wikipedia to figure out, don't you think?

I think the confusion might be on your part with regards to how congress can regulate it. It's pretty easy to clarify. All we have to do is read the first amendment:

"Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech..."

Taco John
04-09-2009, 01:36 AM
I use exploit exactly as it means: to make use of something (in this case, someone) unfairly for one's own advantage.
The meatpacking owner buys labor at a wage deemed unfair for American standards to save costs. Every worker in America, even those with just a working permit and no citizenship, must be paid a fair wage, in most cases a minimum wage unless it's in a service industry. The meatpacking owner unlawfully goes around that. The exploitation is 100% on the backs of the owner.

The difference between my view and yours is that you are only willing to consider one side. In my view, I see "exploiters" on both sides of the equation - but when I say "exploiters" I mean the positive (and more correct) definition of the word "exploit" which is, to make productive use of. Both sides happen to be making productive use of eachother, which is why they're in the mutual engagement at all.

But to look at the situation from the negative standpoint that you insist on, we have two classes of criminals. The first class illegally enters the country, and illegally enters a voluntary agreement to work for wages that are higher than he would receive if he had not illegally entered this country and illegally entered into this voluntary agreement. This class of criminal, through their actions, also illegally and voluntarily refuse to pay the income taxes that this country requires of its citizens - however, this class of criminal takes advantage - er, excuse me, EXPLOITS the social system that this nation has to offer, making use of it unfairly to their own advantage without consideration of the social costs of their exploitation.

The second class of criminals illegally enters into a voluntary agreement with the former class of criminals, paying them lower wages than they might pay a legal citizen who criminal A has displaced from a job. This conspiracy between these two criminals materially damages the social fabric of the US by displacing a legal citizen from this higher wage, tax-paying job that would presumably be available if this voluntary but illegal transaction had not taken place. This second class of criminal, in conspiracy with the first class of criminal, voluntarily exploits eachother without consideration of the social costs of their exploitation.

The best way to solve this is heavy-handed and extremely aggressive prosecution of the exploiters. This means exceedingly puntative penalties for those who hire illegal aliens - including oppressive fines, and even jail time. By ensuring that nobody hires an illegal alien without living in constant fear that their lives will be upended, we'll ensure that no illegal alien will ever be forced to voluntarily enter an agreement that would price out a legal member of our workforce ever again. And when an illegal alien is found in a job that he's essentially stealing from a non-criminal American, he too must face puntative measures - including deportation.

Of course, this is a pipe dream. What will more likely happen is that the Democrats will be as short-sighted as you are about who are the real victims of this conspiracy, and the business owners will be penalized while the criminals that drive this racket will be rewarded with citizenship. The result will be a drying up of about half (or more) of the jobs that these criminals were occupying, adding more strain on the social system that they were exploiting - eventually causing it to snap, leaving everybody in bad shape.

Down with exploiters, right?

***SPRAYER
04-09-2009, 05:28 AM
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/09/25/mexicos_immigration_problem.php

"Gringo hordes"

:LOL:

Donger
04-09-2009, 07:02 AM
Having the ability to speak and write English is a requirement (and has been) for naturalization. I see no reason why that rule shouldn't be applied in this case.

Iowanian
04-09-2009, 07:10 AM
As usual, GoJenson has it all figured out.

Otter
04-09-2009, 07:29 AM
The reality is illegal immigrants make up probably .05% of our population and work in poor conditions for small wages. The attention and almost hatred put on them is so out of proportion it's unbelievable and of course, poorly misplaced. We need to legalize them to protect everybody's interests: theirs and the American citizen worker. An exploitative owning class pushes everybody under the water to lift themselves up -- citizens and non-.

With total disregard that they've broken a federal law?

What should we do with all the criminals in jail who robbed a convenience store to feed themselves or their family? Amnesty is the only option if we're going to treat people fairly.

Where does this convenient oversight of laws end?

What about the next 12 million illegal invaders that enter the country and isn't this amnesty going to encourage just that action? Shouldn't we make sure our government actually has control of the border before their even allowed to think of such a bill?

Dude, what world do you live in? The scary part about people like you is that you actually "think" you know what you're talking about.

HonestChieffan
04-09-2009, 07:33 AM
With total disregard that they've broken a federal law?

What should we do with all the criminals in jail who robbed a convenience store to feed themselves or their family? Amnesty is the only option if we're going to treat people fairly.

Where does this convenient oversight of laws end?

What about the next 12 million illegal invaders that enter the country and isn't this amnesty going to encourage just that action? Shouldn't we make sure our government actually has control of the border before their even allowed to think of such a bill?

Dude, what world do you live in?

He lives in a very safe protected paid for idealistic world. He will learn once he graduates and can't find work in the new Obama economy.

He does have a point, if we didn't have immigration laws at all then no one would be illegal and we would be at peace...

Otter
04-09-2009, 07:34 AM
oh, absolutely. for every story of an illegal immigrant's kid complaining about not getting a free scholarship, there's 100 stories of illegal immigrants getting paid shitty wages and being treated like shit.

And what should be the reward for breaking into a country illegally?

Duck Dog
04-09-2009, 07:39 AM
What bothers me is our politicians are looking for the amnestied voter. Both party's are guilty.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 07:47 AM
I will not support this bill and I am very far right on this issue.

With that being said I see that DaFace edited hcf's racist post and he should have been temp banned for what he said.

***SPRAYER
04-09-2009, 07:51 AM
I really don't see the difference between wetback and redneck. I mean, they both love to shoot off fireworks.

El Jefe
04-09-2009, 08:00 AM
ya know, I could care less whether we make them citizens or not. I would just like to see them paying into the tax system and not just poaching on the resources of taxpayers while paying no taxes.

Likewise, I really couldn't care less about different races becoming citizens. It's the illegals who make everything more expensive for the legal taxpaying citizens, that makes me angry. If you want to come in the right way, then come on in, if you just want to work illegally then stay out. JMO

Duck Dog
04-09-2009, 08:03 AM
I really don't see the difference between wetback and redneck. I mean, they both love to shoot off fireworks.

It all starts with the self loathing liberals who think it's OK to sling racist remarks at their evil white brothers.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 08:05 AM
I really don't see the difference between wetback and redneck. I mean, they both love to shoot off fireworks.

I would equate wetback, spic = nigger

banyon
04-09-2009, 08:08 AM
When have you engaged in any serious debate? When you have you usually end up with some name calling and then go off and sulk. Pardon me but your rage over the term is as much a ploy to deflect from the issue as Obamas rush to pass bills to save the world was a ploy to get all the pork in before anyone noticed.

You have always run away from any debate I've attempted to start with you like a little b*tch.

I didn't know you were a dumba**, racist, little b*tch too. You've forfeited your right to have any type of serious dicussion in this forum for a good while, IMO. You should really be temporarily banned for a while for using that slur.

HonestChieffan
04-09-2009, 08:32 AM
I appreciate your consistancy.

Taco John
04-09-2009, 09:38 AM
I will not support this bill and I am very far right on this issue.

With that being said I see that DaFace edited hcf's racist post and he should have been temp banned for what he said.


This site acts quick if the racist remark is made against black people. It rarely acts if its made against Mexicans though - and that's the truth.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-09-2009, 09:42 AM
I appreciate your consistancy.

I'm sure he appreciates yours as well.

Donger
04-09-2009, 09:48 AM
This site acts quick if the racist remark is made against black people. It rarely acts if its made against Mexicans though - and that's the truth.

There may be some truth to that. I wonder why that is? Maybe because people see so many Mexicans choosing not to be assimilated? A form of resentment, perhaps?

HonestChieffan
04-09-2009, 10:10 AM
This site acts quick if the racist remark is made against black people. It rarely acts if its made against Mexicans though - and that's the truth.

DaFace acted and was quite appropriate. I understand I have possibly offended some and was approriately taken to the woodshed. So dont get all up in a snit. I wont make the same judgement error again.

banyon
04-09-2009, 10:14 AM
I appreciate your consistancy.

"consistency", f***tard.

banyon
04-09-2009, 10:16 AM
DaFace acted and was quite appropriate. I understand I have possibly offended some and was approriately taken to the woodshed. So dont get all up in a snit. I wont make the same judgement error again.

Not really. Taco is right, had that been the n-word, you would have been instantly banned, so if this is all that's going to happen is someone edited your post, then that's pretty much a wrist slap.

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 10:20 AM
The reality is illegal immigrants make up probably .05% of our population and work in poor conditions for small wages. The attention and almost hatred put on them is so out of proportion it's unbelievable and of course, poorly misplaced. We need to legalize them to protect everybody's interests: theirs and the American citizen worker. An exploitative owning class pushes everybody under the water to lift themselves up -- citizens and non-.

They also consume a greatly disproportional percentage of public services.

KC native
04-09-2009, 10:24 AM
They also consume a greatly disproportional percentage of public services.

I hate this argument. How? You have to have a valid social security number to receive TANF, food stamps, or unemployment. They can't receive SS benefits. Please explain how they use a disproportional % of public services.

Brock
04-09-2009, 10:25 AM
Follow the law, round them up, send them home, fix the border. NOW.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 10:29 AM
Follow the law, round them up, send them home, fix the border. NOW.

I agree with that but I would go farther. Stop legal immigration for a period of 5 years and put the military on the southern border

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 10:33 AM
I hate this argument. How? You have to have a valid social security number to receive TANF, food stamps, or unemployment. They can't receive SS benefits. Please explain how they use a disproportional % of public services.

Visits to the ER. Using Social Security numbers of deceased. Taking charitable contributions. Hell, in many states you can now get in-state tuition at college if you can prove you don't belong in the country at all. By 'social services' I'm not simply referring to federal government programs.

Donger
04-09-2009, 10:37 AM
I agree with that but I would go farther. Stop legal immigration for a period of 5 years and put the military on the southern border

Charming.

MOhillbilly
04-09-2009, 10:41 AM
There may be some truth to that. I wonder why that is? Maybe because people see so many Mexicans choosing not to be assimilated? A form of resentment, perhaps?

and blacks are assimilated? what planet do you live on?

its a tradition of wasp culture in this country.

Otter
04-09-2009, 10:42 AM
Visits to the ER. Using Social Security numbers of deceased. Taking charitable contributions. Hell, in many states you can now get in-state tuition at college if you can prove you don't belong in the country at all. By 'social services' I'm not simply referring to federal government programs.

Let's not forget the cost of educating their children that often involves the extra cost of bilingual teachers and the costs of prosecuting and incarcerating the criminal elements. Current DOJ estimates 270,000 illegal aliens currently in prison.

Read this KC Native and get back to me.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 10:42 AM
Charming.

Thanks I try

KC native
04-09-2009, 10:43 AM
Visits to the ER. Using Social Security numbers of deceased. Taking charitable contributions. Hell, in many states you can now get in-state tuition at college if you can prove you don't belong in the country at all. By 'social services' I'm not simply referring to federal government programs.

On the bolded part, that benefits the US because they are paying into social security and will never receive those benefits.

On the in state tuition, they have to live in that state. I haven't seen any state say that if you can prove you're illegal then you can have in state tuition. Furthermore, they are disqualified from federal financial aid so a university education is still prohibitively expensive for most illegal immigrants and their children. So, in reality we're talking about a very small number of people here.

Visits to the ER, this is one area where you are right. A path to becoming legal residents will help with this. Once these people have a way to obtain insurance and integrated into society then IMO you will see the ER visits drop off significantly.

Charitable contributions? You're going to have to explain that one because I don't get what point you are trying to make with that one.

Otter
04-09-2009, 10:44 AM
I hate this argument. How? You have to have a valid social security number to receive TANF, food stamps, or unemployment. They can't receive SS benefits. Please explain how they use a disproportional % of public services.

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the findings:


Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.
Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).
With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.
On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.
Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.
If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.
Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.
Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.
The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.
The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.
The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.

Donger
04-09-2009, 10:46 AM
and blacks are assimilated? what planet do you live on?

its a tradition of wasp culture in this country.

From a language perspective, yes.

Otter
04-09-2009, 10:48 AM
On the bolded part, that benefits the US because they are paying into social security and will never receive those benefits.

On the in state tuition, they have to live in that state. I haven't seen any state say that if you can prove you're illegal then you can have in state tuition. Furthermore, they are disqualified from federal financial aid so a university education is still prohibitively expensive for most illegal immigrants and their children. So, in reality we're talking about a very small number of people here.

Visits to the ER, this is one area where you are right. A path to becoming legal residents will help with this. Once these people have a way to obtain insurance and integrated into society then IMO you will see the ER visits drop off significantly.

Charitable contributions? You're going to have to explain that one because I don't get what point you are trying to make with that one.

You're assuming the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS aren't working under the table.

Donger
04-09-2009, 10:50 AM
On the bolded part, that benefits the US because they are paying into social security and will never receive those benefits.

On the in state tuition, they have to live in that state. I haven't seen any state say that if you can prove you're illegal then you can have in state tuition. Furthermore, they are disqualified from federal financial aid so a university education is still prohibitively expensive for most illegal immigrants and their children. So, in reality we're talking about a very small number of people here.

Visits to the ER, this is one area where you are right. A path to becoming legal residents will help with this. Once these people have a way to obtain insurance and integrated into society then IMO you will see the ER visits drop off significantly.

Charitable contributions? You're going to have to explain that one because I don't get what point you are trying to make with that one.

You are aware that one of Mexico's largest sources of revenue is cash coming back in from illegal aliens in our country, yes?

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 10:52 AM
You are aware that one of Mexico's largest sources of revenue is cash coming back in from illegal aliens in our country, yes?

Charming isn't it?

Donger
04-09-2009, 10:54 AM
Charming isn't it?

No, it isn't. But your callousness is revolting. Have SOME sympathy.

KC native
04-09-2009, 10:54 AM
This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.
.

Sorry but the CIS is not reputable in any way when it comes to immigration costs and studies. They're a right wing partisan think tank. I've refuted their study before (not here) and don't have to time right now to go back through, read, and find where there "analysis" is lacking.

KC native
04-09-2009, 10:55 AM
You're assuming the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS aren't working under the table.

You're assuming they are. There are instances of both.

mlyonsd
04-09-2009, 10:56 AM
How about setting the Federal income tax rate to 50% for anyone working in the US that's not a citizen.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 10:56 AM
No, it isn't. But your callousness is revolting. Have SOME sympathy.

For law breakers?

KC native
04-09-2009, 10:56 AM
You are aware that one of Mexico's largest sources of revenue is cash coming back in from illegal aliens in our country, yes?

And what does that have to do with the costs of immigration? They earned the money and can send it anywhere they want.

Jenson71
04-09-2009, 10:56 AM
The difference between my view and yours is that you are only willing to consider one side. In my view, I see "exploiters" on both sides of the equation - but when I say "exploiters" I mean the positive (and more correct) definition of the word "exploit" which is, to make productive use of. Both sides happen to be making productive use of eachother, which is why they're in the mutual engagement at all.

But to look at the situation from the negative standpoint that you insist on, we have two classes of criminals. The first class illegally enters the country, and illegally enters a voluntary agreement to work for wages that are higher than he would receive if he had not illegally entered this country and illegally entered into this voluntary agreement. This class of criminal, through their actions, also illegally and voluntarily refuse to pay the income taxes that this country requires of its citizens - however, this class of criminal takes advantage - er, excuse me, EXPLOITS the social system that this nation has to offer, making use of it unfairly to their own advantage without consideration of the social costs of their exploitation.

They would be at an advantage if they made enough and were legal enough to pay income taxes then the often under-the-table payments they receive. Furthermore, no one gets by paying sales tax unless they live in a state specifically with no sales tax requirement. Also, payroll and corporate income taxes usually fall on the backs of the worker, further lowering his pay.

But your solution as to what should be done with the capitalist owners that exploit these people is in line with mine, so your post is somewhat agreeable. What I can not get behind is the absolute irrationale anger and blame placed upon the Mexican workers, while in most cases, the anger towards the owners is absent.

Donger
04-09-2009, 10:57 AM
For law breakers?

That's such an ugly term for this issue. You do realize that most are here just to provide a better life for their families, right?

Donger
04-09-2009, 10:58 AM
And what does that have to do with the costs of immigration? They earned the money and can send it anywhere they want.

Because if they spent it here, it would benefit our country, not their country.

KC native
04-09-2009, 10:58 AM
They would be at an advantage if they made enough and were legal enough to pay income taxes then the often under-the-table payments they receive. Furthermore, no one gets by paying sales tax unless they live in a state specifically with no sales tax requirement. Also, payroll and corporate income taxes usually fall on the backs of the worker, further lowering his pay.

But your solution as to what should be done with the capitalist owners that exploit these people is in line with mine, so your post is somewhat agreeable. What I can not get behind is the absolute irrationale anger and blame placed upon the Mexican workers, while in most cases, the anger towards the owners is absent.

Exactly. These people wouldn't come here if no one hired them.

KC native
04-09-2009, 10:59 AM
Because if they spent it here, it would benefit our country, not their country.

Do they not buy food, cars, clothes, etc while they are here?

Also, I don't see you bitching about any other immigrants who send funds to their home countries.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 11:00 AM
That's such an ugly term for this issue. You do realize that most are here just to provide a better life for their families, right?

Isn't it against the law yes or no?

There is a right way to go about things and a wrong way to do things. They could go the legal route if they wanted too but they choose not to.

mlyonsd
04-09-2009, 11:01 AM
Tax the crap out of them to make them go home.

Kind of like taxing tobacco to make people quit.

Donger
04-09-2009, 11:02 AM
Do they not buy food, cars, clothes, etc while they are here?

Also, I don't see you bitching about any other immigrants who send funds to their home countries.

Yes, they do. But they also send a tremendous amount out of the country. Surely you acknowledge that it would be better for us if they spent it all here, yes?

Regarding your second point, I would have issue with any other illegal immigrant doing the same.

It's a double slap in the face, IMO. Here illegally AND sending wealth back "home."

Donger
04-09-2009, 11:03 AM
Isn't it against the law yes or no?

There is a right way to go about things and a wrong way to do things. They could go the legal route if they wanted too but they choose not to.

Yes, it is. But laws are meant to be broken. I take it you've never gotten a speeding ticket? Parking ticket?

***SPRAYER
04-09-2009, 11:04 AM
Exactly. These people wouldn't come here if no one hired them.


Really?

:drool:

Jenson71
04-09-2009, 11:05 AM
With total disregard that they've broken a federal law?

What should we do with all the criminals in jail who robbed a convenience store to feed themselves or their family? Amnesty is the only option if we're going to treat people fairly.

First of all, if a person is in jail because they robbed a convenience store to feed their family, that's totally ridiculous. I doubt most prosecutors would seek to put that person in jail, and would go for fines and community service instead, with maybe a few nights in jail at max.

It's not the prosecuting of the law I'm angry at. It's the law itself. The sanctions against corporations that hire illegals are hardly ever followed through. There's no reason more worker permits can't be given to uneducated foreigners who want a job, and yes, I'm in full support of granting citizenship to the 12 million now, and the 12 million "invaders" later.

More poor foreigners should have the opportunity to become US citizens, and even get workers permits, at least, that ensure just wages.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:05 AM
Fuck off you racist asshole.

ROFL

Brock
04-09-2009, 11:06 AM
What I can not get behind is the absolute irrationale anger and blame placed upon the Mexican workers, while in most cases, the anger towards the owners is absent.

Bullshit. Most people want the companies that hire the illegals to be punished severely for it.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:06 AM
Excuse me, but PHUCK YOU. You know damn well you are intended that to be a slur. You just showed your true colors you racist prick.

:LOL:

Brock
04-09-2009, 11:06 AM
That's such an ugly term for this issue. You do realize that most are here just to provide a better life for their families, right?

So are meth dealers.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:08 AM
This site acts quick if the racist remark is made against black people. It rarely acts if its made against Mexicans though - and that's the truth.

:LOL:

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 11:10 AM
Yes, it is. But laws are meant to be broken. I take it you've never gotten a speeding ticket? Parking ticket?

You are actually comparing a speeding ticket to crossing a nation's borders?

You realize Mexico has its military on its southern border?

Otter
04-09-2009, 11:10 AM
You're assuming they are. There are instances of both.

Let's assume the ones who are have a stolen SSN which mean they are guilty of breaking both federal immigration laws and identity theft.

OK by you?

Jenson71
04-09-2009, 11:11 AM
Bullshit. Most people want the companies that hire the illegals to be punished severely for it.

Two different things: The people that understand it do. But the anger and hate is disportionately placed on the backs of the working foreigners. If more people were angry at the capitalists, the sanctions would more likely be enforced, and the focus on building walls and militarizing the borders would be less prominent, almost non-existent. But that's almost entirely where the debate is. How big should the wall be? Should troops stand on top of the wall?

And the favorite: the illegal Mexicans are killing American citizens! While this has happened, it's so disportionately focused on, it's incredible.

But the easiest thing to rail on is the defenseless.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 11:13 AM
Two different things: The people that understand it do. But the anger and hate is disportionately placed on the backs of the working foreigners. If more people were angry at the capitalists, the sanctions would more likely be enforced, and the focus on building walls and militarizing the borders would be less prominent, almost non-existent. But that's almost entirely where the debate is. How big should the wall be? Should troops stand on top of the wall?

Because they walk the streets protesting all the while waving the Mexican flag.

Fuck em and send them back

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:13 AM
I hate this argument. How? You have to have a valid social security number to receive TANF, food stamps, or unemployment. They can't receive SS benefits. Please explain how they use a disproportional % of public services.

Come on out to Phoenix and I'll show you exactly how illegals consume an inordinate amount of resources. We can start with the emergency rooms, go to the welfare line, roads, and public facilities and end up in the public schools. Then we can proceed on to the theft and illegal use of social security numbers to obtain jobs, loans and credit all while paying ZERO in taxes or social security. This I have observed first-hand in a cleaning woman that worked for an aquaintance.

Here in Scottsdale we have it more under control but it is still a very real issue.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:14 AM
You are actually comparing a speeding ticket to crossing a nation's borders?

You realize Mexico has its military on its southern border?

ROFL First time on the Donger-mindphuck-train huh? Enjoy the ride.

DaneMcCloud
04-09-2009, 11:16 AM
Wow, there are quite a few different views on this issue. For me, it's rather simple: Give amnesty to those illegals living in the U.S. and significantly relax the immigration requirements to allow Mexicans to immigrate legally in a much shorter time period (say, 3 to 5 years).

My wife's family is from the Philippines. It took her uncle 17 years to legally immigrate to the U.S. and this was after her parents had been here for more than 25 years. That's insane. If people from Mexico want to live and work in the United States, sign them up and get them in the system.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:16 AM
Do they not buy food, cars, clothes, etc while they are here?

Also, I don't see you bitching about any other immigrants who send funds to their home countries.

Illegals aren't immigrants.
I'm curious: what do you do for a living that you are so blase about illegals working here?
I respect your right to privacy should you choose not to answer.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:18 AM
Wow, there are quite a few different views on this issue. For me, it's rather simple: Give amnesty to those illegals living in the U.S. and significantly relax the immigration requirements to allow Mexicans to immigrate legally in a much shorter time period (say, 3 to 5 years).

My wife's family is from the Philippines. It took her uncle 17 years to legally immigrate to the U.S. and this was after her parents had been here for more than 25 years. That's insane. If people from Mexico want to live and work in the United States, sign them up and get them in the system.

In Los Angeles over 60% of outstanding warrants for violent crime that are more than 1 year old are for Mexican illegals.
Do you propose legalizing all illegals or implementing a procedure where they all have to get in line and be processed with background, criminal, disease, mental helath, drug checks?

Brock
04-09-2009, 11:20 AM
Two different things: The people that understand it do. But the anger and hate is disportionately placed on the backs of the working foreigners. If more people were angry at the capitalists, the sanctions would more likely be enforced, and the focus on building walls and militarizing the borders would be less prominent, almost non-existent. But that's almost entirely where the debate is. How big should the wall be? Should troops stand on top of the wall?

And the favorite: the illegal Mexicans are killing American citizens! While this has happened, it's so disportionately focused on, it's incredible.

But the easiest thing to rail on is the defenseless.

I don't want to rail on them. I don't want to hurt them. I just want them loaded up on a series of busses and sent home.

Otter
04-09-2009, 11:21 AM
Yes, it is. But laws are meant to be broken. I take it you've never gotten a speeding ticket? Parking ticket?

You pull out this same shtick every time this topic is brought up. Any point you're trying to make that we've missed the first 10 times?

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:21 AM
On the in state tuition, they have to live in that state. I haven't seen any state say that if you can prove you're illegal then you can have in state tuition. Furthermore, they are disqualified from federal financial aid so a university education is still prohibitively expensive for most illegal immigrants and their children. So, in reality we're talking about a very small number of people here.

Visits to the ER, this is one area where you are right. A path to becoming legal residents will help with this. Once these people have a way to obtain insurance and integrated into society then IMO you will see the ER visits drop off significantly.

Arizona is preparing to offer in-state tuition to illegal children.

You want to give insurance to illegals when our own citizens, those who have been paying taxes and social security for years and generations, aren't 100% covered?
You don't feed a beggar when part of your family is starving.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 11:22 AM
Wow, there are quite a few different views on this issue. For me, it's rather simple: Give amnesty to those illegals living in the U.S. and significantly relax the immigration requirements to allow Mexicans to immigrate legally in a much shorter time period (say, 3 to 5 years).

My wife's family is from the Philippines. It took her uncle 17 years to legally immigrate to the U.S. and this was after her parents had been here for more than 25 years. That's insane. If people from Mexico want to live and work in the United States, sign them up and get them in the system.

That's insane. I agree part of the problem is the length of getting citizenship that is why I proposed to stop all legal immigration for a period of 5 years to clean up everything and then come up with a different policy to address this problem.

But I am not in favor at all for blanket amnesty. You realize how many Mexican gang members are living here? Fuck that.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 11:23 AM
Arizona is preparing to offer in-state tuition to illegal children.

You want to give insurance to illegals when our own citizens, those who have been paying taxes and social security for years and generations, aren't 100% covered?
You con't feed a beggar when part of your family is starving.

Yep. I am all for universal health care but not for illegals and if what you are saying happens that is really fucked up.

KC native
04-09-2009, 11:25 AM
Let's assume the ones who are have a stolen SSN which mean they are guilty of breaking both federal immigration laws and identity theft.

OK by you?

If we had a functioning immigration system they wouldn't have to resort to those measures.

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 11:27 AM
On the bolded part, that benefits the US Visits to the ER, this is one area where you are right. A path to becoming legal residents will help with this. Once these people have a way to obtain insurance and integrated into society then IMO you will see the ER visits drop off significantly.

Why bother with health insurance even if they were legal? In my limited experience people from Mexico are far less afraid of death due to long term illness then Americans and they've already established that they can get any urgent care they need for free by showing up in an ER, citizen or not.

Charitable contributions? You're going to have to explain that one because I don't get what point you are trying to make with that one.

If Church Charity A has $100 of food to give out, and gives $50 of that to illegals, that's $50 that didn't go to help a family that is supposed to be here.

Otter
04-09-2009, 11:27 AM
If we had a functioning immigration system they wouldn't have to resort to those measures.

You're obviously going to rationalize any wrong doing from identity theft to probably murder.

When's its your SSN or someone in family hurt I hope you can come back here and see how big of a fool you are regarding this subject.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:27 AM
If we had a functioning immigration system they wouldn't have to resort to those measures.

Enable much?
Those of you who excuse criminal behavior under the guise of necessity are on a slippery slope the likes of which you can't comprehend.

KC native
04-09-2009, 11:27 AM
Come on out to Phoenix and I'll show you exactly how illegals consume an inordinate amount of resources. We can start with the emergency rooms, go to the welfare line, roads, and public facilities and end up in the public schools. Then we can proceed on to the theft and illegal use of social security numbers to obtain jobs, loans and credit all while paying ZERO in taxes or social security. This I have observed first-hand in a cleaning woman that worked for an aquaintance.

Here in Scottsdale we have it more under control but it is still a very real issue.


I live in Texas. I'm very familiar with our broken immigration system. I've already addressed the canard of them using a disproportionate share of resources.

KC native
04-09-2009, 11:30 AM
Arizona is preparing to offer in-state tuition to illegal children.

You want to give insurance to illegals when our own citizens, those who have been paying taxes and social security for years and generations, aren't 100% covered?
You don't feed a beggar when part of your family is starving.

They are offering in state tuition if the children reside there. That's fair IMO.

I've never advocated giving immigrants anything that US residents don't get. The fact of the matter is that illegal immigrants don't receive insurance.

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 11:32 AM
What I can not get behind is the absolute irrationale anger and blame placed upon the Mexican workers, while in most cases, the anger towards the owners is absent.

I've said for years that there needs to be a minimum one year jail sentence per worker for anyone caught employing illegal aliens. That would stop the whole thing cold.

MOhillbilly
04-09-2009, 11:33 AM
You're obviously going to rationalize any wrong doing from identity theft to probably murder.

When's its your SSN or someone in family hurt I hope you can come back here and see how big of a fool you are regarding this subject.

-native- 'that will never happen to me-

logic scares people.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 11:33 AM
I've said for years that there needs to be a minimum one year jail sentence per worker for anyone caught employing illegal aliens. That would stop the whole thing cold.

No they should just enforce the current law and that would stop it cold.

The current law is a fine of $100,000\illegal alien.

KC native
04-09-2009, 11:33 AM
Why bother with health insurance even if they were legal? In my limited experience people from Mexico are far less afraid of death due to long term illness then Americans and they've already established that they can get any urgent care they need for free by showing up in an ER, citizen or not.

So, you're an expert on Mexican culture now? LMAO This is ridiculous and unprovable in any way.


If Church Charity A has $100 of food to give out, and gives $50 of that to illegals, that's $50 that didn't go to help a family that is supposed to be here.

So, where's your evidence that they receive a disproportionate share of charity?

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 11:34 AM
First of all, if a person is in jail because they robbed a convenience store to feed their family, that's totally ridiculous. I doubt most prosecutors would seek to put that person in jail, and would go for fines and community service instead, with maybe a few nights in jail at max.

It's not the prosecuting of the law I'm angry at. It's the law itself. The sanctions against corporations that hire illegals are hardly ever followed through. There's no reason more worker permits can't be given to uneducated foreigners who want a job, and yes, I'm in full support of granting citizenship to the 12 million now, and the 12 million "invaders" later.

More poor foreigners should have the opportunity to become US citizens, and even get workers permits, at least, that ensure just wages.

Dude, if you don't want a job there are easier ways.

KC native
04-09-2009, 11:36 AM
You're obviously going to rationalize any wrong doing from identity theft to probably murder.

When's its your SSN or someone in family hurt I hope you can come back here and see how big of a fool you are regarding this subject.

Rationalize murder? You're almost as big a jackass as racistChiefan.

If we reformed our immigration system then the use of other people's ss numbers is unnecessary. Right now these people have no workable solution to become integrated into society so they do what they have to.

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 11:37 AM
And the favorite: the illegal Mexicans are killing American citizens! While this has happened, it's so disportionately focused on, it's incredible.

DOJ statistics show that illegal immigrants commit a hugely disproportional amount of crimes compared to the population in general. It shouldn't come as a real surprise, you're talking about people who have broken laws just by being here and holding a job. What's one more law when you're already breaking so many?

Additionally, a percentage of those here illegally are here avoiding capture by Mexican authorities for crimes they committed in Mexico. By all means, let's grant them US citizenship.

Donger
04-09-2009, 11:39 AM
They are offering in state tuition if the children reside there. That's fair IMO.

I've never advocated giving immigrants anything that US residents don't get. The fact of the matter is that illegal immigrants don't receive insurance.

They don't need to have it when the ER is free, now do they.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 11:42 AM
They don't need to have it when the ER is free, now do they.

Yep. It is one of the reasons why health care costs have skyrocketed

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:42 AM
They are offering in state tuition if the children reside there. That's fair IMO.

I've never advocated giving immigrants anything that US residents don't get. The fact of the matter is that illegal immigrants don't receive insurance.

You think it is fair to say "it doesn't matter if you do so illegally if you can make it in to America you can have the same tuition benefits as legal citizens"?

You are an illegal apologist and obsure the facts.
Illegals don't receive health insurance? No.
They receive all medical care in the ER where they know they can't be turned away. They cost hundreds of millions in health care $, health care that is not going toward legal citizens.

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 11:42 AM
So, you're an expert on Mexican culture now? LMAO This is ridiculous and unprovable in any way.

Read much? I qualified it with "In my limited experience", so you can go fuck yourself.

So, where's your evidence that they receive a disproportionate share of charity?

If one of them ever received a dime then it's disproportionate.

El Jefe
04-09-2009, 11:43 AM
They are offering in state tuition if the children reside there. That's fair IMO.

I've never advocated giving immigrants anything that US residents don't get. The fact of the matter is that illegal immigrants don't receive insurance.

Why would they need it? They just go to the ER.

Brock
04-09-2009, 11:44 AM
If we had a functioning immigration system they wouldn't have to resort to those measures.

We need border security and enforcement of immigration law more than we need a functioning immigration system.

KC native
04-09-2009, 11:49 AM
DOJ statistics show that illegal immigrants commit a hugely disproportional amount of crimes compared to the population in general. It shouldn't come as a real surprise, you're talking about people who have broken laws just by being here and holding a job. What's one more law when you're already breaking so many?

Additionally, a percentage of those here illegally are here avoiding capture by Mexican authorities for crimes they committed in Mexico. By all means, let's grant them US citizenship.

No they don't. That's been thoroughly disproven. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at the same rate as everyone else.


The Illegal Immigrant Crime Myth

By EDWARD SCHUMACHER-MATOS

The Tampa Tribune
The fury of Bill O'Reilly, Lou Dobbs and other nativists in response to the news that the prime suspect wanted for the murder of Chandra Levy is an illegal immigrant from El Salvador could easily be dismissed as racism. But complicating matters is that most Americans probably agree with them.

The immigration restrictionists point to Salvadoran Ingmar Guandique, who is in prison for knife attacks against two other women, as an example of illegal immigrant crime run amok. "About a half-million serious crimes have been committed by illegal aliens over the past 10 years," declared O'Reilly.

Some polls show that as many as three-fourths of Americans believe that immigrants cause crime to rise. Crime by illegal immigrants in particular has stirred such unease that even liberal communities such as San Francisco and the Washington suburb of Montgomery County, Md., known for providing sanctuary to the undocumented, are now moving to turn in some felony suspects to immigration authorities.

But in all the furor, there is this hitch: The perception of high crime rates by illegal immigrants is pure myth. And it is misdirecting public policy about what we really should do to stop illegal immigration. A century of studies has consistently shown that recent immigrants are in fact less likely to commit a crime or be in jail than native Americans.

The last comprehensive national report, by Ruben G. Rumbaut, Walter A. Ewing and the American Immigration Law Foundation, found two years ago that while the number of unauthorized Latino immigrants in the country doubled between 1994 and 2005, violent crime during the same period dropped nearly 35 percent.

Other studies show that the drop fell faster in major illegal immigrant destinations such as Los Angeles and New York than in cities with lower immigration rates. Rumbaut and Ewing reported that U.S-born men ages 18-39 were five times more likely to be in jail than foreign-born ones, even though nearly 30 percent of those foreign-born were here illegally and often jailed for only that offense.

In California, home to the largest illegal immigrant Latino population, immigrants in 2005 made up about 35 percent of California's adult population but accounted for only 17 percent of the prison population, according to the Public Policy Institute of California.

What researchers also have found is a Latino paradox: Their incarceration rates go up one generation to the next. Most Latino crime, in other words, is learned here. It is due to higher rates of family disintegration, drug and alcohol addiction, and gang membership.

To be sure, some illegal immigrants join gangs and are involved in the drug trade. But this is a phenomenon that would exist regardless of there being 12 million illegal immigrants here.

For the overwhelming number of illegal immigrants who are law-abiding and have come to the U.S. merely to work, the solution lies in comprehensive reform that imposes controls, but also responds to labor demand by opening pathways to legal temporary work and citizenship.

KC native
04-09-2009, 11:50 AM
You think it is fair to say "it doesn't matter if you do so illegally if you can make it in to America you can have the same tuition benefits as legal citizens"?

You are an illegal apologist and obsure the facts.
Illegals don't receive health insurance? No.
They receive all medical care in the ER where they know they can't be turned away. They cost hundreds of millions in health care $, health care that is not going toward legal citizens.

Why should their children be penalized for decisions the parents made? They are children. It doesn't matter where they come from

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:51 AM
No they don't. That's been thoroughly disproven. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at the same rate as everyone else.

One article proves nothing.
Why do you ignore the facts surrounding the cost to the American people of illegal aliens living here?

I'm curious as to your background and employment situation.

Donger
04-09-2009, 11:52 AM
No they don't. That's been thoroughly disproven. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at the same rate as everyone else.

"illegal immigrants who are law-abiding"

LMAO

KC native
04-09-2009, 11:52 AM
Read much? I qualified it with "In my limited experience", so you can go **** yourself.



If one of them ever received a dime then it's disproportionate.

So, I guess that means you have no evidence to support your claim.

KC native
04-09-2009, 11:53 AM
One article proves nothing.
Why do you ignore the facts surrounding the cost to the American people of illegal aliens living here?

I'm curious as to your background and employment situation.

I'm an investment professional. I have done extensive volunteer work with the immigrant community.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:53 AM
Why should their children be penalized for decisions the parents made? They are children. It doesn't matter where they come from

Anything that gives incentive and reward to illegal behavior is counter-productive and so must be prevented.

Why are you so in favor of giving away for free that which the immigrants who built this country earned with effort and dedication?
Are you Mexican?

KC native
04-09-2009, 11:54 AM
One article proves nothing.
Why do you ignore the facts surrounding the cost to the American people of illegal aliens living here?

I'm curious as to your background and employment situation.

I posted the article because they referenced the studies that have confirmed this. I knew if I went and found the studies you wouldn't read them.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 11:55 AM
"illegal immigrants who are law-abiding"

LMAO

By definition what's the first thing an illegal alien does upon entering the US?
Breaks the law.

KC native
04-09-2009, 11:55 AM
Anything that gives incentive and reward to illegal behavior is counter-productive and so must be prevented.

Why are you so in favor of giving away for free that which the immigrants who built this country earned with effort and dedication?
Are you Mexican?

What are we giving away free? No one prevented your ancestors from moving here. Why are you so adamant about preventing others from having the same opportunity?

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 11:55 AM
Why should their children be penalized for decisions the parents made? They are children. It doesn't matter where they come from

Yeah anchor babies!

:shake:

I'm all for immigration. If it were up to me I'd just open the borders. Problem is that in order to be able to afford that you have to drop all the socialist programs first, which we've proven we won't do. So, if the government is going to take money from one group and give it to another we need to control the types of people who are allowed to be in the system. This country is already bankrupt. Adding more system-dependent citizens, regardless of their country of origin, isn't sustainable.

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 11:59 AM
One article proves nothing.
Why do you ignore the facts surrounding the cost to the American people of illegal aliens living here?

I'm curious as to your background and employment situation.

The very nature of being here illegally means that every one of them is, in fact, a criminal. It's a hard fact to gather in, though, huh?

Your article only looks at violent crime. It also ignores that illegal-on-illegal crime is going to be significantly under-reported. It also admits that their children are an ever-increasing source of fuel for gangs.

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 12:00 PM
So, I guess that means you have no evidence to support your claim.

Wow, I only had to point out twice that it was anecdotal for you to figure it out. You're really on the ball today.

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 12:01 PM
What are we giving away free? No one prevented your ancestors from moving here. Why are you so adamant about preventing others from having the same opportunity?

When my ancestors came here they weren't propped up by government programs.

DaneMcCloud
04-09-2009, 12:03 PM
In Los Angeles over 60% of outstanding warrants for violent crime that are more than 1 year old are for Mexican illegals.
Do you propose legalizing all illegals or implementing a procedure where they all have to get in line and be processed with background, criminal, disease, mental helath, drug checks?

Well most certainly, there would have to be procedure in place. There couldn't just be a "waving of the wand" as it were to legalize the illegals.

I would think that violent criminals would be deported immediately.

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:16 PM
When my ancestors came here they weren't propped up by government programs.

So which programs are propping up immigrants now?

Otter
04-09-2009, 01:17 PM
No they don't. That's been thoroughly disproven. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at the same rate as everyone else.

So this article proves it but the Department of Justice studies are to be ignored?

Dude, you're a fucking moron.

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:17 PM
The very nature of being here illegally means that every one of them is, in fact, a criminal. It's a hard fact to gather in, though, huh?

Your article only looks at violent crime. It also ignores that illegal-on-illegal crime is going to be significantly under-reported. It also admits that their children are an ever-increasing source of fuel for gangs.

OHHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOO, they might join gangs. Again, another ridiculous assertion that's not backed up by anything other than your unreasonable fear of Hispanic immigrants.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:18 PM
What are we giving away free? No one prevented your ancestors from moving here. Why are you so adamant about preventing others from having the same opportunity?

This one question shows you have no crecibility nor logical basis on which to discuss this issue.

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:18 PM
This one question shows you have no crecibility nor logical basis on which to discuss this issue.

How about you answer the question. What are we giving away free?

Brock
04-09-2009, 01:20 PM
Round them up, send them home, keep them out, problem solved.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 01:21 PM
How about you answer the question. What are we giving away free?

Healthcare for one.

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:21 PM
So this article proves it but the Department of Justice studies are to be ignored?

Dude, you're a ****ing moron.

Produce the study and your claim might have merit.

PS. I already know what you're referring to and it doesn't say what you think it does.

Duck Dog
04-09-2009, 01:21 PM
So which programs are propping up immigrants now?

Try Google dot com

Medical assistance, unemployment insurance, and public education may be the programs most used by illegal aliens. Public assistance used by illegal aliens may place a greater financial burden on State and local governments than on the Federal Government. Access to public assistance programs by illegal aliens can be obtained through use of illicit documents, absence of statutory or regulatory denial, administrative error, or court order. The indirect burden placed on public assistance programs by illegal aliens (such as displacing citizens in jobs, causing them to seek public assistance, and aid to U.S. citizen children of illegal aliens) may be greater than that caused by direct participation in the programs. Although the data suggest that the total dollars illegal aliens send to their home countries is significant, only a minor part appears to come from public assistance dollars.

http://www.gao.gov/products/GGD-78-20

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:22 PM
OHHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOO, they might join gangs. Again, another ridiculous assertion that's not backed up by anything other than your unreasonable fear of Hispanic immigrants.

They aren't immigrants they are ILLEGALS. Stop trying to cloud the issue by being dishonest and bestowing the honorable title of 'immigrant' on these unworthy trespassing criminals.The instant they cross over our border illegally they are criminals, what part of that do you not understand?

Here in Phoenix they passed a law punishing anyone who employs illegals. That law combined with the crash in the construction industry has the illegals leaving in droves.
Home Depot is no longer allowing them to congregate in their parking lots.
Committees are being appointed on a local level to investigate and document the activities of illegals using the Emergency Rooms as their local doctor's office.

In spite of uninformed bleding hearts like you that would give away for free that which so many have worked so hard to obtain the tide is turning against the abuses illegals perpetuate on our resources every day.

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:22 PM
Healthcare for one.

It's not free. They get billed for services received.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 01:24 PM
It's not free. They get billed for services received.

LMAO

They go to the ER and leave and they will never pay a dime.

The policy should be unless you have insurance, medicaid, or medicare the ER should be COD.

Otter
04-09-2009, 01:26 PM
It's not free. They get billed for services received.

Who are they billing if they have no identification and use fake credentials to gain employment? Do you think they pay the bill if it by some miracle gets to them?

Why are hospitals so over burdened by illegals if they're paying on time and not using up funds set aside for citizens to pay bills of people who can't afford to pay.

Seriously dude, you're so one-sided it's beyond ridiculous.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:27 PM
How about you answer the question. What are we giving away free?

You advocate giving the illegals the benefits of our society without their having to earn them via the legal immigration process.

Free Emergency Room access, free education for their children, free access to social services, free access to our roads, buidlings, parks, bridges, public buildings.
Free legal representation, translation services.
They don't pay a dime in taxes or social security yet they receive all of these benefits and many more.

If you really don't know any of this you need to stay out of discussions on this topic or simply say"I don't know any of the facts but my heart bleeds for illegals" and leave it at that.

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:29 PM
Try Google dot com



http://www.gao.gov/products/GGD-78-20

Next time you should read the report because it doesn't say that those programs are incentive for them to stay and that there isn't enough data to suggest that they are draining the programs either. This is the first page of it.

DOCUMENT ESO[E
04526 - (B3394627] // it
Impact of Illegal Aliens on Public Assistance Programs: Too
Little Is Known. GGD-78-20; B-125051. December 1, 1977. 3 pp. +
6 appendices (32 pp.).
Report to Sen. Edmund S. Muskie, Chai.man, Senate Committee on
Budget; Sen. Henry Bellmon, Ranking inority Member; by Elmer B.
Staats, Comptroller General.
Issue Area: Income Security Programs (1300).
Contact: General Governent Div.
Budget Function: Law Enforcement and Justice: Federal Law
Enforcement and Prosecution (751).
Organization Concerned: Department of Justice.
Congressional Relevance: Senate Committee on Budget. Sen. Henry
Bellmon.
wing public assisExisting information is inadequate to reasonably
estimate the extent or cost of illegal aliens receiving public
assistance under Federal, State, and local government programs.
whether the payments il.legal aliens contribute to the wlfare
system by paying taxes are sufficient to offset the benefits
received is also unknown. However, public assistantce programs do
not appear to provide significant incentives for aliens to enter
and remain in the United States illegally. The impact of illegal
aliens on the follotance programs was
investigated: Aid to Families with Dependent Children,
Supplemental Security Income, Medicaid/Medicare, food stamps,
unemployment insurance, and pubiic education and housing.
Findings/Conclusions:Medical assistance, unemployment
insurance, and public education may be the programs most used by
illegal aliens. Public assistance used by illegal aliens may
place a greater financial burden on State and local governments
than on the Federal Government. Access to public assistance
programs by illegal aliens can be obtained through use of
illicit documents, absence of statutory or regulatory denial,
administrative error, or court order. The indirect burden placed
on public assistance programs by illegal aliens (such as
displacing citizens in jobs, causing them to seek public
assistance, and aid to U.S. citizen children of illegal aliens)
may be greater than that caused by direct participation in the
programs. Although the data suggest that the actual dollars
illegal aliens send to their home countries is significant, only
a minor part appears o cone from public assistance dollars.
(Author/SC)

J Diddy
04-09-2009, 01:30 PM
LMAO

They go to the ER and leave and they will never pay a dime.

The policy should be unless you have insurance, medicaid, or medicare the ER should be COD.


I suppose that's one way to look it at. Unless you can't afford to pay and don't want to die.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:30 PM
It's not free. They get billed for services received.

Again you are a liar. You know they don't pay a penny for these services, that they are illegals and there is no way to trace them or collect on them.
They know they won't pay the minute they accept these services, the hospital knows they won't pay.
You know there are hundreds of millions of dollars in unpaid bills from illegals yet you choose to lie about it because you support their cause. You and your ilk sicken me; fortunately there are many more of us than there are of you.

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:31 PM
Who are they billing if they have no identification and use fake credentials to gain employment? Do you think they pay the bill if it by some miracle gets to them?

Why are hospitals so over burdened by illegals if they're paying on time and not using up funds set aside for citizens to pay bills of people who can't afford to pay.

Seriously dude, you're so one-sided it's beyond ridiculous.

Do you not think that a program to recognize and assimilate these people into our society would remove a majority of these problems?

J Diddy
04-09-2009, 01:32 PM
You advocate giving the illegals the benefits of our society without their having to earn them via the legal immigration process.

Free Emergency Room access, free education for their children, free access to social services, free access to our roads, buidlings, parks, bridges, public buildings.
Free legal representation, translation services.
They don't pay a dime in taxes or social security yet they receive all of these benefits and many more.

If you really don't know any of this you need to stay out of discussions on this topic or simply say"I don't know any of the facts but my heart bleeds for illegals" and leave it at that.

Okay some of this is true some of this is not. If they are purchasing anything here they are paying sales tax. Majority of kids who are here and in school were born here thus making them legal. If they gain employment even falsely then they are paying payroll taxes and the company is matching.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:32 PM
I suppose that's one way to look it at. Unless you can't afford to pay and don't want to die.

That policy should apply to illegals only. If they knew they couldn't obtain free health care they would not come here and abuse the system.
Hard?Absolutely but it is a hard cold world.
Our resources are not unlimited.
If there are only 12 meals you can't feed 120 people. Some have to be left to fend for themselves.

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 01:32 PM
OHHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOO, they might join gangs. Again, another ridiculous assertion that's not backed up by anything other than your unreasonable fear of Hispanic immigrants.

First, you should read your own damned article:

What researchers also have found is a Latino paradox: Their incarceration rates go up one generation to the next. Most Latino crime, in other words, is learned here. It is due to higher rates of family disintegration, drug and alcohol addiction, and gang membership.

Second, unlike you I don't care the nationality of the illegal immigrant. There are a few racists in this thread and you may be one of them, but I'm not.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 01:32 PM
They don't pay a dime in taxes or social security yet they receive all of these benefits and many more.



In fairness that is not true. As a restaurant manager a large portion of my staff were illegals and they had taxes and SS taken out every paycheck.

Now I realize there is alot of illegals that work underneath the table so yes you would be accurate for those people.

Otter
04-09-2009, 01:33 PM
Do you not think that a program to recognize and assimilate these people into our society would remove a majority of these problems?

You answer my question and I'll answer yours.

Donger
04-09-2009, 01:34 PM
Do you not think that a program to recognize and assimilate these people into our society would remove a majority of these problems?

A question for you regarding assimilation: do you think that if illegals were granted amnesty, they would be more willing to accept our society than they do as illegals? Do you think that illegals (and/or legal Mexican immigrants) would be more inclined to use English as their first language if such a concession were made?

I've never gotten a good answer to why so many Mexican immigrants refuse to adopt the language of the land.

Donger
04-09-2009, 01:34 PM
In fairness that is not true. As a restaurant manager a large portion of my staff were illegals and they had taxes and SS taken out every paycheck.

Now I realize there is alot of illegals that work underneath the table so yes you would be accurate for those people.

Why didn't you report them?

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:35 PM
You advocate giving the illegals the benefits of our society without their having to earn them via the legal immigration process.

Free Emergency Room access, free education for their children, free access to social services, free access to our roads, buidlings, parks, bridges, public buildings.
Free legal representation, translation services.
They don't pay a dime in taxes or social security yet they receive all of these benefits and many more.

If you really don't know any of this you need to stay out of discussions on this topic or simply say"I don't know any of the facts but my heart bleeds for illegals" and leave it at that.

The legal immigration system is broken. It has at least a 7 year back log and it's not improving.

FINALLY, WHAT PART OF THEY DON'T RECEIVE SOCIAL SERVICES UNLESS THEY HAVE A VALID SOCIAL DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? When I was forced to resign from my last job I had to seek food stamps and unemployment. You get a case worker for each item and they VERIFY your social to make sure you are who you say you are.

Also, they do paxes as long as they're not employed under the table. They pay sales and property taxes. Property taxes fund schools so they are paying for sending their kids to schools. For you to say they have free access is a lie.

Iowanian
04-09-2009, 01:36 PM
if this happens, and its stupid if it does...they should land mine every 6" of the boarder a quarter mile strip, and run strafing missions for training of new pilots.

It would be nice if more of them started paying taxes, paying their bills and education, and have some actual recourse when they get in an accident with no license, registration or insurance to cover the damages.


And....NO I should not have to listen to El Spanish version and press 1...first.

English...learn it, live it, love it.

J Diddy
04-09-2009, 01:37 PM
That policy should apply to illegals only. If they knew they couldn't obtain free health care they would not come here and abuse the system.
Hard?Absolutely but it is a hard cold world.
Our resources are not unlimited.
If there are only 12 meals you can't feed 120 people. Some have to be left to fend for themselves.

Then you get into a slippery slope altogether. What if someone has a fake id (which I'm certain alot do in order to acquire employment)? How do you differentiate?

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:37 PM
Okay some of this is true some of this is not. If they are purchasing anything here they are paying sales tax. Majority of kids who are here and in school were born here thus making them legal. If they gain employment even falsely then they are paying payroll taxes and the company is matching.

1. The illegals purchase very little here, they Western Union most of it back to Mexico. Come to Phoenix and see all of the Western Union stations whose signs are all in Spanish.

2.In this state the majority of ESL kids are illegals. Again, come to Phoenix and see the huge percentage of kids in the public schools who don't speak English because until this year they were in Mexico.

3. Dude, seriously.A huge percenteage of illegals work on a cash-per-day basis. There are centers set up here for them called "day worker centers". They call them that because they work by the day for whoever needs them to haul or clean or carry or plant or weed.

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 01:38 PM
Do you not think that a program to recognize and assimilate these people into our society would remove a majority of these problems?

Why in the hell would the illegals *want* to become citizens?

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 01:38 PM
Why didn't you report them?

I suspected they were illegals. We ran their SSN's and what not and the ones that came up clean were hired the ones that didn't weren't.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:38 PM
Then you get into a slippery slope altogether. What if someone has a fake id (which I'm certain alot do in order to acquire employment)? How do you differentiate?

e-verify. They system will tell you who that social security number really belongs to then you call ICE.

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:39 PM
What researchers also have found is a Latino paradox: Their incarceration rates go up one generation to the next. Most Latino crime, in other words, is learned here. It is due to higher rates of family disintegration, drug and alcohol addiction, and gang membership.

Second, unlike you I don't care the nationality of the illegal immigrant. There are a few racists in this thread and you may be one of them, but I'm not.

They are also referring to legal residents in those crime rates. Hispanic communities have gang problems just as any other community does. Trying to blame gang problems on illegal immigrants is disingenous.

Donger
04-09-2009, 01:39 PM
I suspected they were illegals. We ran their SSN's and what not and the ones that came up clean were hired the ones that didn't weren't.

That isn't what you just wrote.

Otter
04-09-2009, 01:39 PM
In fairness that is not true. As a restaurant manager a large portion of my staff were illegals and they had taxes and SS taken out every paycheck.

Now I realize there is alot of illegals that work underneath the table so yes you would be accurate for those people.

Good job enabling

Duck Dog
04-09-2009, 01:41 PM
Next time you should read the report because it doesn't say that those programs are incentive for them to stay and that there isn't enough data to suggest that they are draining the programs either. This is the first page of it.

That's not what you asked. Don't move the goal posts.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:43 PM
In fairness that is not true. As a restaurant manager a large portion of my staff were illegals and they had taxes and SS taken out every paycheck.

Now I realize there is alot of illegals that work underneath the table so yes you would be accurate for those people.

Speaking for here in Phoenix where there are as many or more illegals than anywhere outside of LA: There is a very large percentage of illegals who work on a cash-per day basis. Check any construction or roofing site you want.
Those illegals who work on the books have stolen social security numbers and claim large numbers of dependents so almost no taxes are deducted.

We are bombarded with news about illegals every day here.
I used to not care. I admit when I first moved here I thought it was a great novelty to hire illegals to do all of my yardwork and anything else I wanted at a tenth of the price you could hire a citizen for. Now that I know what a strain they are and realize how they are a slap in the face to all of those who follow the proper immigration channels I no longer hire them.

Duck Dog
04-09-2009, 01:43 PM
The legal immigration system is broken. It has at least a 7 year back log and it's not improving.

FINALLY, WHAT PART OF THEY DON'T RECEIVE SOCIAL SERVICES UNLESS THEY HAVE A VALID SOCIAL DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? When I was forced to resign from my last job I had to seek food stamps and unemployment. You get a case worker for each item and they VERIFY your social to make sure you are who you say you are.

Also, they do paxes as long as they're not employed under the table. They pay sales and property taxes. Property taxes fund schools so they are paying for sending their kids to schools. For you to say they have free access is a lie.

WHAT PART OF THEY USE FORGED DOCUMENTS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:43 PM
A question for you regarding assimilation: do you think that if illegals were granted amnesty, they would be more willing to accept our society than they do as illegals? Do you think that illegals (and/or legal Mexican immigrants) would be more inclined to use English as their first language if such a concession were made?

I've never gotten a good answer to why so many Mexican immigrants refuse to adopt the language of the land.

I think it would make them more willing to assimilate.

One of the biggest beefs I have with illegal immigrants is with the ones who refuse to learn English. I'm fluent in Spanish and won't speak it with them because I know they can speak Spanish. They need to learn English for the benefit of their children, themselves, and their community. In my interactions with them I stress the importance of learning English.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 01:43 PM
That isn't what you just wrote.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out if a person is probably an illegal or not.

I had several legal immigrants though mostly from Guatemala.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 01:44 PM
Good job enabling

Yeah Yeah that was when I was young and didn't know or care.

Jenson71
04-09-2009, 01:44 PM
It's nice to see we've come to the landmine solution. We don't need to sanction corporate exploiters, we need to fucking blow limbs off people like third world failed states.

Donger
04-09-2009, 01:45 PM
I think it would make them more willing to assimilate.

One of the biggest beefs I have with illegal immigrants is with the ones who refuse to learn English. I'm fluent in Spanish and won't speak it with them because I know they can speak Spanish. They need to learn English for the benefit of their children, themselves, and their community. In my interactions with them I stress the importance of learning English.

Good for you, seriously. Why do so many refuse?

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:45 PM
Do you not think that a program to recognize and assimilate these people into our society would remove a majority of these problems?

Oh I see, change the laws so the people breaking them can now be legal. Can we please apply that concept to everyone?
Do you know how many LEGAL immigrants there are in this country?
Why can't the Mexicans follow the same rules as everyone else?
Why do you advocate a different standard for them?

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:45 PM
WHAT PART OF THEY USE FORGED DOCUMENTS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

The case worker verifies the social to make sure the person who is using it is in fact that person. Your social number is tied to your name. If they don't match then no benefits.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:47 PM
WHAT PART OF THEY USE FORGED DOCUMENTS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

This guy is either ignorant or he is being purposely obtuse for the sake of supporting his weak arguments.

J Diddy
04-09-2009, 01:47 PM
1. The illegals purchase very little here, they Western Union most of it back to Mexico. Come to Phoenix and see all of the Western Union stations whose signs are all in Spanish.

2.In this state the majority of ESL kids are illegals. Again, come to Phoenix and see the huge percentage of kids in the public schools who don't speak English because until this year they were in Mexico.

3. Dude, seriously.A huge percenteage of illegals work on a cash-per-day basis. There are centers set up here for them called "day worker centers". They call them that because they work by the day for whoever needs them to haul or clean or carry or plant or weed.

Perhaps the problem is with Arizona. Maybe who should just make it part of Mexico.

Mr. Kotter
04-09-2009, 01:48 PM
Punish the companies that hire illegals. Severely.

Problem would be solved PDQ.

:shake:

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:48 PM
Good for you, seriously. Why do so many refuse?

A variety of reasons. Some actually speak or understand English but play stupid because they, for some reason, feel it makes their life easier. A lot of them are functionally illiterate (this is really dependent on where they come from) if they can't read or write Spanish it makes it really difficult to learn English.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 01:48 PM
Good job enabling

One thing I will add is that unless I had proof they were illegal then I or the company could be sued for discrimination since all employers are required to be Equal Opportunity.

So if their SSN's, green cards, etc were clean we had to hire them.

Duck Dog
04-09-2009, 01:49 PM
This guy is either ignorant or he is being purposely obtuse for the sake of supporting his weak arguments.

I'm guessing both.

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:50 PM
This guy is either ignorant or he is being purposely obtuse for the sake of supporting his weak arguments.

I've been through the process of getting public assistance and it's not a walk in the park. You idiots like to claim they receive all these benefits but you have no idea what you have to go through to get them and realize only a random few illegals would be able to make it through the process to the point where they actually receive benefits.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 01:50 PM
Speaking for here in Phoenix where there are as many or more illegals than anywhere outside of LA: There is a very large percentage of illegals who work on a cash-per day basis. Check any construction or roofing site you want.
Those illegals who work on the books have stolen social security numbers and claim large numbers of dependents so almost no taxes are deducted.

We are bombarded with news about illegals every day here.
I used to not care. I admit when I first moved here I thought it was a great novelty to hire illegals to do all of my yardwork and anything else I wanted at a tenth of the price you could hire a citizen for. Now that I know what a strain they are and realize how they are a slap in the face to all of those who follow the proper immigration channels I no longer hire them.

I am not disagreeing with you Vali just pointing out that alot of illegals work in the service industry like hotels and restaurants and they do have taxes and Social Security taken out.

I am sure you have been in many hotels and all the cleaning staff are Mexicans and not a one of them speaks English.

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:52 PM
Punish the companies that hire illegals. Severely.

Problem would be solved PDQ.

:shake:

This

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 01:52 PM
It's nice to see we've come to the landmine solution. We don't need to sanction corporate exploiters, we need to fucking blow limbs off people like third world failed states.

I'm not for that solution, but you're saying a homeowner is responsible for a burglar who was injured breaking into a home.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 01:52 PM
Punish the companies that hire illegals. Severely.

Problem would be solved PDQ.

:shake:

Like I said earlier they should enforce the laws they have now.

Right now the fine is $100,000/illegal caught being employed in your business

Duck Dog
04-09-2009, 01:54 PM
I've been through the process of getting public assistance and it's not a walk in the park. You idiots like to claim they receive all these benefits but you have no idea what you have to go through to get them and realize only a random few illegals would be able to make it through the process to the point where they actually receive benefits.

We aren't the idiots. I got my info from the Government Accountability Office. You are the one that has chosen to ignore the evidence.

A few illegals?

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:54 PM
Perhaps the problem is with Arizona. Maybe who should just make it part of Mexico.

:) My son was recently studying the US-MEXICO war in school. When he read the part about US troops marching to Mexico to make them surrender and Mexico giving us all of the territories they did he said "Arizona used to be Mexico? No wonder they like it here so much".

J Diddy
04-09-2009, 01:55 PM
Punish the companies that hire illegals. Severely.

Problem would be solved PDQ.

:shake:


IMO, that's the best way to handle it. Except you have to punish them severely enough that the penalty won't be offset by their advantages. For instance Tyson Chicken down here. Seems like they're getting busted but they pay less and it saves them more than enough that a couple of fines don't hurt em.

KC native
04-09-2009, 01:55 PM
:) My son was recently studying the US-MEXICO war in school. When he read the part about US troops marching to Mexico to make them surrender and Mexico giving us all of the territories they did he said "Arizona used to be Mexico? No wonder they like it here so much".

Ah, a little racist in training. You should be proud.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:55 PM
I am not disagreeing with you Vali just pointing out that alot of illegals work in the service industry like hotels and restaurants and they do have taxes and Social Security taken out.

I am sure you have been in many hotels and all the cleaning staff are Mexicans and not a one of them speaks English.

Yes, agree 100%. In fact I can't remember the last time I saw a caucasian room serivce worker at a hotel.

Mr. Kotter
04-09-2009, 01:56 PM
Like I said earlier they should enforce the laws they have now.

Right now the fine is $100,000/illegal caught being employed in your business


And it should be enforced in Draconian fashion. The problem would be solved.

J Diddy
04-09-2009, 01:56 PM
:) My son was recently studying the US-MEXICO war in school. When he read the part about US troops marching to Mexico to make them surrender and Mexico giving us all of the territories they did he said "Arizona used to be Mexico? No wonder they like it here so much".

Your son about ruined my laptop. I had to turn fast so as not to spit my coke zero on the screen.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:58 PM
I've been through the process of getting public assistance and it's not a walk in the park. You idiots like to claim they receive all these benefits but you have no idea what you have to go through to get them and realize only a random few illegals would be able to make it through the process to the point where they actually receive benefits.

Good news everybody! There are only a FEW illegals who get any money or benefits and services illegally.
All the news, facts and figures you hear about the hundreds of millions of dollars drained from our system by illegal aliens is simply not true?
KC Native here has been through the system and he assures us that illegals are a-ok, that they aren't here to take jobs and medical services, that they don't use any of our public facilities at all.
Thank goodness you came by KCN.

Duck Dog
04-09-2009, 01:58 PM
Ah, a little racist in training. You should be proud.

You should go fuck yourself now. If you scream racism enough, eventually people stop listening. Fucking with peoples kids on here is no no and you deserve any pile on you get.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 01:59 PM
Your son about ruined my laptop. I had to turn fast so as not to spit my coke zero on the screen.

:D You know how 10 year old kids are: they know just enough to know whats going on yet not enough to know what they should and shouldn't say.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 02:00 PM
Ah, a little racist in training. You should be proud.

And there goes the R card.

KC native
04-09-2009, 02:00 PM
Good news everybody! There are only a FEW illegals who get any money or benefits and services illegally.
All the news, facts and figures you hear about the hundreds of millions of dollars drained from our system by illegal aliens is simply not true?
KC Native here has been through the system and he assures us that illegals are a-ok, that they aren't here to take jobs and medical services, that they don't use any of our public facilities at all.
Thank goodness you came by KCN.

The problem is what you guys use to justify your arguments isn't true. The GAO said they can't estimate the costs because there's not enough data points then what makes you think the right wing CIS can reasonably estimate the costs?

vailpass
04-09-2009, 02:01 PM
You should go fuck yourself now. If you scream racism enough, eventually people stop listening. Fucking with peoples kids on here is no no and you deserve any pile on you get.

Thanks DD but don't sweat it. My skin is so much thicker than that.
Besides, my kid could kick the shit out of his homo kid any day of the week.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 02:01 PM
Yes, agree 100%. In fact I can't remember the last time I saw a caucasian room serivce worker at a hotel.

And it should be enforced in Draconian fashion. The problem would be solved.

I totally agree with both of you.

I know I take a hardline approach but vali mentioning he can't remember the last white service worker at a hotel makes me rethink my position a little.

What if we did round up all the illegals or fined companies this huge fine who would work those jobs?

Let's be honest here alot of Americans don't want to work in fast food, restaurants, cleaning hotel rooms, picking oranges, etc for various reasons mostly because they are lazy.

It is something to think about anyway.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 02:01 PM
The problem is what you guys use to justify your arguments isn't true. The GAO said they can't estimate the costs because there's not enough data points then what makes you think the right wing CIS can reasonably estimate the costs?

Exactly what is an acceptable dollar amount for illegals to drain off of our system on an annual basis?

J Diddy
04-09-2009, 02:02 PM
You should go **** yourself now. If you scream racism enough, eventually people stop listening. ****ing with peoples kids on here is no no and you deserve any pile on you get.

I don't think it was so much a dig at vp's kid as it was vp.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 02:05 PM
I don't think it was so much a dig at vp's kid as it was vp.

Do you think he digs me?

***SPRAYER
04-09-2009, 02:05 PM
I would like to know why our politicians are allocating scarce resources in favor of illegal aliens over citizens.

Thanks.

KC native
04-09-2009, 02:08 PM
You should go **** yourself now. If you scream racism enough, eventually people stop listening. ****ing with peoples kids on here is no no and you deserve any pile on you get.

And there goes the R card.


Thanks DD but don't sweat it. My skin is so much thicker than that.
Besides, my kid could kick the shit out of his homo kid any day of the week.

DD,
So why do you direct all of your ire torwards Mexican immigrants? None of you have bitched about Eastern European, Haitian, Jamaican, or Cuban illegal immigrants. BTW how was I phucking with his kid? I made a comment based upon what his kid said and he typed here.

Vailpass,
My homo kid? Way to go tough guy. My child is 2 1/2. I would hope a 10 year old could kick his ass. One thing I've learned in my years on this planet is that kids aren't racist. They learn color and racist attitudes at home. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree you know.

J Diddy
04-09-2009, 02:08 PM
I would like to know why our politicians are allocating scarce resources in favor of illegal aliens over citizens.

Thanks.


Which scarce resources?

KC native
04-09-2009, 02:08 PM
I don't think it was so much a dig at vp's kid as it was vp.

And you would be correct sir.

J Diddy
04-09-2009, 02:10 PM
I will attempt to be the voice of reason here.

We should probably leave the child bashing out before someone's tampon gets dirty.

Just throwing it out there fwiw.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 02:10 PM
I think we should leave race out of this. it has nothing to do with anything

vailpass
04-09-2009, 02:17 PM
DD,

Vailpass,
My homo kid? Way to go tough guy. My child is 2 1/2. I would hope a 10 year old could kick his ass. One thing I've learned in my years on this planet is that kids aren't racist. They learn color and racist attitudes at home. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree you know.

Does he look anything like the illegal immigrants you have been working with?
Have you noticed a very high landscaping aptitude in him?
If you scream !LA MIGRA! does he involuntaryily flinch, as though he were genetically predisposed to do so?
Have you noticed an abnormal amount of habaneros in your refrigerator?

***SPRAYER
04-09-2009, 02:19 PM
I think we should leave race out of this. it has nothing to do with anything

When they say it's not about race...

It's about race.

LMAO

Simplex3
04-09-2009, 02:20 PM
I totally agree with both of you.

I know I take a hardline approach but vali mentioning he can't remember the last white service worker at a hotel makes me rethink my position a little.

What if we did round up all the illegals or fined companies this huge fine who would work those jobs?

Let's be honest here alot of Americans don't want to work in fast food, restaurants, cleaning hotel rooms, picking oranges, etc for various reasons mostly because they are lazy.

It is something to think about anyway.

Then the pay for those positions would go up until Americans were willing to do the job.

:shrug:

KC native
04-09-2009, 02:24 PM
Does he look anything like the illegal immigrants you have been working with?
Have you noticed a very high landscaping aptitude in him?
If you scream !LA MIGRA! does he involuntaryily flinch, as though he were genetically predisposed to do so?
Have you noticed an abnormal amount of habaneros in your refrigerator?

This is way over the line.

You are a pussay. You attack my child with racist slurs when your arguments fall short. Have fun being old and bitter. The demographics aren't working in your favor.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 02:25 PM
This is way over the line.

You are a pussay. You attack my child with racist slurs when your arguments fall short. Have fun being old and bitter. The demographics aren't working in your favor.

I wasn't commenting on your child, I was commenting on you.
That's what you were doing, right?
Next time don't start something you don't want to finish.

KC native
04-09-2009, 02:26 PM
Next time don't start something you don't want to finish. I wasn't commenting on your child, I was commenting on you.
That's what you were doing, right?

Phuck you. The character of that post is completely different from what I wrote and you know it. I can finish anything I start though and don't have to resort to tactics like that when my arguments are blown out of the water. The demographics are on my side huero, not yours.

mlyonsd
04-09-2009, 02:27 PM
Make them legal and then tax this chit out of them until they become citizens.

Duck Dog
04-09-2009, 02:28 PM
DD,
So why do you direct all of your ire torwards Mexican immigrants? None of you have bitched about Eastern European, Haitian, Jamaican, or Cuban illegal immigrants. BTW how was I phucking with his kid? I made a comment based upon what his kid said and he typed here.

Vailpass,
My homo kid? Way to go tough guy. My child is 2 1/2. I would hope a 10 year old could kick his ass. One thing I've learned in my years on this planet is that kids aren't racist. They learn color and racist attitudes at home. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree you know.

Actually, yeah, my ire is against all illegal immigrants and even some legal immigrants who come here (especially Minnesota) for it's free hand outs.

dirk digler
04-09-2009, 02:34 PM
Then the pay for those positions would go up until Americans were willing to do the job.

:shrug:

I don't think it is about pay. It is about the actual job and the work involved.

|Zach|
04-09-2009, 02:35 PM
And there goes the R card.

You are still confused by it.

This is great.

I wonder if your kid will live in as much fear as you do. Probably so, which sucks for him.

Ebolapox
04-09-2009, 02:37 PM
And what should be the reward for breaking into a country illegally?

deport them UNLESS they're willing to go through the process of either 1) becoming citizens or 2) going about the legal process of getting work visas and actually paying into the system.

look. the system currently is beyond fucked. there really is no easy answer.

Brock
04-09-2009, 02:39 PM
This is way over the line.

You are a pussay. You attack my child with racist slurs when your arguments fall short. Have fun being old and bitter. The demographics aren't working in your favor.

You called his kid a racist for no good reason. You opened that door, quit bitching about it.

Donger
04-09-2009, 02:41 PM
The legal immigration system is broken. It has at least a 7 year back log and it's not improving.

Seems like not only is it not broken, it's flourishing for Latinos:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090407/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/immigration_latinos_1

Almost 1 of 2 new Americans in 2008 was Latino

The National Association of Latino Elected and Appointed Officials said the number of Latinos who became Americans in fiscal year 2008 more than doubled over the previous year, to 461,317. That's nearly half of the record 1,046,539 new citizens overall in 2008, a 58 percent increase from 2007.

KC native
04-09-2009, 02:42 PM
You called his kid a racist for no good reason. You opened that door, quit bitching about it.

It was a one line joke and was clearly a joke. That hardly compares to his litany of racial stereotypes and slurs.

vailpass
04-09-2009, 02:43 PM
It was a one line joke and was clearly a joke. That hardly compares to his litany of racial stereotypes and slurs.

:deevee:

Donger
04-09-2009, 02:44 PM
It was a one line joke and was clearly a joke. That hardly compares to his litany of racial stereotypes and slurs.

"Don't mess with the bull, young man: you'll get the horns."

Brock
04-09-2009, 02:44 PM
It was a one line joke and was clearly a joke. That hardly compares to his litany of racial stereotypes and slurs.

No, it wasn't clearly a joke. I don't give a shit about vailpass and I didn't think it was a joke.

KC native
04-09-2009, 02:45 PM
Seems like not only is it not broken, it's flourishing for Latinos:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090407/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/immigration_latinos_1

Almost 1 of 2 new Americans in 2008 was Latino

The National Association of Latino Elected and Appointed Officials said the number of Latinos who became Americans in fiscal year 2008 more than doubled over the previous year, to 461,317. That's nearly half of the record 1,046,539 new citizens overall in 2008, a 58 percent increase from 2007.

That covers people who were already here and going through the process. There's at least a 7 year back log to enter into the process of becoming a citizen.