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View Full Version : What makes a QB a franchise QB?


luv
04-08-2009, 09:40 PM
Smart, athletic, accurate, all of the above? What about mobility? Does being versatile in that way play into anything? I like watching a QB who knows how to handle himself, his team, and the ball. I think it's even more entertaining when they're ab;e to run the ball as well.

Define "franchise QB".

ChiefsCountry
04-08-2009, 09:51 PM
See Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer, Big Ben, Matt Ryan.

luv
04-08-2009, 10:08 PM
See Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer, Big Ben, Matt Ryan.

But did everyone see them as franchise QB's when they got drafted? I saw Carson Palmer on my fantasy team last year, unfortunately.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-08-2009, 10:10 PM
The ability to hand off, throw screens, and most importantly, hold on to the ball so he doesn't make mistakes.

Reaper16
04-08-2009, 10:12 PM
But did everyone see them as franchise QB's when they got drafted? I saw Carson Palmer on my fantasy team last year, unfortunately.
The only one who wasn't viewed that way was Brady. Scouting isn't objective.

luv
04-08-2009, 10:40 PM
So far, I'm getting that a franchise QB should be a basic QB, and given examples of franchise QB's.

I'm asking, in your opinion, what makes a franchise QB? I mean, hell, there were people who thought Thigpen could be one.

cdcox
04-08-2009, 10:42 PM
You don't know who IS a franchise QB until he's already established himself. As Reaper16 mentioned, all but Brady were drafted with that potential in mind.

When you have a franchise QB you know it. He is your QB and you don't think about anyone else under center for the next 10 years. Fans from other teams don't make jokes about him. They fear him and don't want the ball in his hands with the game on the line. He has the ability to make plays that most QBs wouldn't. He can bring a team back by himself. He makes John Madden say all kinds of stupid stuff. Everyone wants to see him play, because he is one of the best players in the league. It is like no other feeling in the world, because if the rest of your team is average you are an automatic contender year in and year out.

The Chiefs haven't had one in 35 years.

SBK
04-08-2009, 10:42 PM
Franchise QB's are always picked late in the draft.

cdcox
04-08-2009, 10:45 PM
So far, I'm getting that a franchise QB should be a basic QB, and given examples of franchise QB's.

I'm asking, in your opinion, what makes a franchise QB? I mean, hell, there were people who thought Thigpen could be one.

There are people on here who think the government planted ground level explosives to bring down the World Trade Center.

DeezNutz
04-08-2009, 10:45 PM
A franchise QB is a "sure thing." And the only sure thing in this draft class is Curry.

So, to answer your question, take all the qualities of Aaron Curry and apply them to the QB position.

SBK
04-08-2009, 10:48 PM
I would also like to add that a franchise QB is inferior to the ever threatening game manager who doesn't make mistakes.

SBK
04-08-2009, 10:49 PM
A franchise QB is a "sure thing." And the only sure thing in this draft class is Curry.

So, to answer your question, take all the qualities of Aaron Curry and apply them to the QB position.

I think you'd be better off to just move Curry to QB.

cdcox
04-08-2009, 10:50 PM
A franchise QB is a "sure thing." And the only sure thing in this draft class is Curry.

So, to answer your question, take all the qualities of Aaron Curry and apply them to the QB position.

Someone who makes sure tackles after he throws a Sancheception?

DeezNutz
04-08-2009, 10:52 PM
I think you'd be better off to just move Curry to QB.

Someone who makes sure tackles after he throws a Sancheception?

Both thoughtful and helpful comments.

DeezNutz
04-08-2009, 10:54 PM
Another way that you can identify a franchise QB is to take the best G in all of football, look at his number of Pro-Bowls made, and divide that figure in half.

luv
04-08-2009, 10:55 PM
I would also like to add that a franchise QB is inferior to the ever threatening game manager who doesn't make mistakes.

Wouldn't a franchise QB be a game manager?

ChiefsCountry
04-08-2009, 10:57 PM
Wouldn't a franchise QB be a game manager?

Hell NO.

Mecca
04-08-2009, 10:58 PM
Wouldn't a franchise QB be a game manager?

Nah see when people say game manager they basically mean a QB that is protected, asked to not throw INT's hand off let the defense play...you know the Marty thing.

Franchise QB's their teams give the games to them and tell them to win them.

cdcox
04-08-2009, 11:00 PM
Wouldn't a franchise QB be a game manager?

Trent Green and Matt Hasselhoff are game managers. Decent guys, but they aren't going to wow you. Calling someone a game manger is a nice way of slamming a QB.

DeezNutz
04-08-2009, 11:00 PM
Wouldn't a franchise QB be a game manager?

:rockon::whackit: /KC fans/

ChiefsCountry
04-08-2009, 11:03 PM
Lets let look at examples - its easier than trying to explain in words.

Franchise QB
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Big Ben
Donovan McNabb
Carson Palmer
Phillip Rivers
Matt Ryan

Fringe Franchise QB's
Eli Manning
Tony Romo
Jay Cutler
Aaron Rodgers

Game Mangers
Chad Pennington
Kerry Collins
Trent Green
Tavarius Jackson/Gus Frettore
Kyle Orton

Ebolapox
04-08-2009, 11:03 PM
hmmmmm... it isn't an exact science. there are guys like brady who slip through the cracks (by being undersized/skinny/unimpressive through the scouting process), and guys like ryan leaf who is as physically impressive as you could want, yet doesn't have it mental. so much of it is how they're developed/brought up in a system. there are guys like david carr who had a lot of talent, but wasn't taught how to succeed as a qb (film watching is an art that guys like peyton manning know, yet most young qbs never properly learn).

so, what does it take? off the top of my head (and a qb doesn't have to have ALL of these, but a good number of them... the more they have, the more successful they'll be)

1) intangibles. we'll break this down into several categories... a) desire to succeed. they're willing to work their ass off in the film room, which usually leads to success on the field. b) intelligence. ability to quickly process information gleaned by off-field preparation. c) 'it.' some guys have 'it,' some guys don't. this is impossible to define. guys like brady have it, roethlisberger, manning, etc.

2) arm strength. you don't have to have a cannon, but if you have a better arm, it's easier to make up for mistakes. if you have a plus-plus arm, it gives you more time to process in the pocket. in a game of milliseconds, that extra few moments is a LIFETIME.

3) confidence. guys like favre excel here. the ability to appear that you're always in charge--to get your team behind you. to be able to throw an interception and not shatter mentally.

4) work ethic. it kinda goes in 'intangibles,' but it's so important that it gets its own category. there really is a reason why guys like brady, manning, and the rest of the franchise guys succeed--they work their asses off.

5) right system. sure, the true franchise guys can play in any system. but let's be honest--if you put joe montana in a different system (not WCO), he doesn't have any rings. if you put warren moon in a WCO (and not run/shoot), his numbers aren't as gaudy and he isn't in the hall-of fame. coaching is VERY important--if your coaches utilize you properly, you'll be more able to utilize the first four attributes.


not sure if any of the above worked or made sense. it's hard to put together a list of qualities that make a guy a franchise qb. you have guys who have all of the physical talent, but something is lacking mentally. you have guys who have the mental game down pat, but can't complete the 20 yard out.

and after making my list, I'll go completely out on a limb (and keep in mind, I'm not a cassel homer. I still want us to go QB at number 3)

cassel:

1) from what I've read, he possesses a and b. we have no idea about C. if he has C, we'll have a lombardi at some point in the near future.

2) seems to have a 'good enough' arm. isn't weak-armed, but he's no stafford. however, you don't HAVE to have a howitzer to win the super bowl.

3) we have no idea at this point. none at all. probably the biggest unknown of cassel at this point.

4) as previously mentioned, everything I've read says that this is something cassel excels at. he has a great work ethic.

5) the other great unknown. will haley be smart enough to put cassel in a good position to succeed? who the fuck knows right now.

Mecca
04-08-2009, 11:06 PM
I'd use a video game analogy but I don't think she plays football video games.

DeezNutz
04-08-2009, 11:09 PM
A game manager is like Pierce Brosnan's wife: steady, reliable, someone you can count on, not flashy, but someone whom you can be happy with.

A franchise QB is like Jessica Biel with the sex drive of Jenna Jameson in her prime. Give her the rock(s--as the case may be) and let 'er go to work. You won't be disappointed.

RustShack
04-08-2009, 11:10 PM
I think you'd be better off to just move Curry to QB.

Jesus Saves!

cdcox
04-08-2009, 11:10 PM
hmmmmm... it isn't an exact science. there are guys like brady who slip through the cracks (by being undersized/skinny/unimpressive through the scouting process), and guys like ryan leaf who is as physically impressive as you could want, yet doesn't have it mental. so much of it is how they're developed/brought up in a system. there are guys like david carr who had a lot of talent, but wasn't taught how to succeed as a qb (film watching is an art that guys like peyton manning know, yet most young qbs never properly learn).

so, what does it take? off the top of my head (and a qb doesn't have to have ALL of these, but a good number of them... the more they have, the more successful they'll be)

1) intangibles. we'll break this down into several categories... a) desire to succeed. they're willing to work their ass off in the film room, which usually leads to success on the field. b) intelligence. ability to quickly process information gleaned by off-field preparation. c) 'it.' some guys have 'it,' some guys don't. this is impossible to define. guys like brady have it, roethlisberger, manning, etc.

2) arm strength. you don't have to have a cannon, but if you have a better arm, it's easier to make up for mistakes. if you have a plus-plus arm, it gives you more time to process in the pocket. in a game of milliseconds, that extra few moments is a LIFETIME.

3) confidence. guys like favre excel here. the ability to appear that you're always in charge--to get your team behind you. to be able to throw an interception and not shatter mentally.

4) work ethic. it kinda goes in 'intangibles,' but it's so important that it gets its own category. there really is a reason why guys like brady, manning, and the rest of the franchise guys succeed--they work their asses off.

5) right system. sure, the true franchise guys can play in any system. but let's be honest--if you put joe montana in a different system (not WCO), he doesn't have any rings. if you put warren moon in a WCO (and not run/shoot), his numbers aren't as gaudy and he isn't in the hall-of fame. coaching is VERY important--if your coaches utilize you properly, you'll be more able to utilize the first four attributes.


not sure if any of the above worked or made sense. it's hard to put together a list of qualities that make a guy a franchise qb. you have guys who have all of the physical talent, but something is lacking mentally. you have guys who have the mental game down pat, but can't complete the 20 yard out.

and after making my list, I'll go completely out on a limb (and keep in mind, I'm not a cassel homer. I still want us to go QB at number 3)

cassel:

1) from what I've read, he possesses a and b. we have no idea about C. if he has C, we'll have a lombardi at some point in the near future.

2) seems to have a 'good enough' arm. isn't weak-armed, but he's no stafford. however, you don't HAVE to have a howitzer to win the super bowl.

3) we have no idea at this point. none at all. probably the biggest unknown of cassel at this point.

4) as previously mentioned, everything I've read says that this is something cassel excels at. he has a great work ethic.

5) the other great unknown. will haley be smart enough to put cassel in a good position to succeed? who the **** knows right now.

I'd be interested to see how you rated Trent Green in these categories. To me, he's going to score a lot like you scored Cassel, but I never considered TG to be a franchise guy. Maybe because Cassel is younger than Trent was and we manage to put a defense together, Cassel (in the end) gets viewed much better than Trent.

luv
04-08-2009, 11:15 PM
I'd use a video game analogy but I don't think she plays football video games.

I don't play any video games.

Mecca
04-08-2009, 11:18 PM
I don't play any video games.

Which is why using the analogy would be pointless it was going to be about playing with QB's with certain ratings.

SBK
04-08-2009, 11:25 PM
On a more serious note, I would tend to say franchise QB's will be known for a few things.

1. They take games over. These are the kind of guys that you have to game plan around because they will beat you. Elway, Marino, Montana, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady all come to mind.

2. Because they are absolutely dominant you see them everywhere--which is why they're called The Franchise.

3. Teams that have a franchise QB will be good for a long time, because that QB will put the team on their back and win a lot of games. Peyton Manning has made the Colts into one of the best teams in the league over the last 10 years or so, even when their defense was as bad as KC's. It never matters who they play, people always think the Colts will win--entirely because of Manning. People didn't gameplan ways to score on their D, they didn't say the key to stopping them was to stop Edge. They went out and picked up Champ Bailey, or boatloads of DE's to try and stop them.

4. Most of the times these guys have $100,000,000+ contracts. The one exception to this rule is Michael Vick. But I can tell you living in Atlanta he got paid that much because he brought a lot more than that into the team, and the city here LOVED him.

Ebolapox
04-08-2009, 11:31 PM
I'd be interested to see how you rated Trent Green in these categories. To me, he's going to score a lot like you scored Cassel, but I never considered TG to be a franchise guy. Maybe because Cassel is younger than Trent was and we manage to put a defense together, Cassel (in the end) gets viewed much better than Trent.

yeah, pretty much. however, to me, the most important attribute a QB can possess is 'it.' I know it's cliche. but there really is something that the truly great possess aside from work ethic and talent. I never saw green as truly 'talented.' he was good, but, I guess, let's grade trent green out on my scale...

let's even up the scale... every category is worth ten points.

1) green had A and B, but wasn't freakishly impressive in either. he didn't have to be, as he had weapons all around him. he had priest holmes and a brilliant offensive line. I never saw green as a guy with 'it' though. so, under perfect circumstances, a franchise qb gets 2 points for a and b each, and 6 for c. let's give trent 2/10 points for the first category.

2) his arm was 'good enough.' I guess I'd grade him out at a 6/10

3) to the best of my memory, green was never really in the franchise qb category as far as confidence went. he wasn't 'the unquestioned leader' of the team who had the ball in go-time. I'll give him a 5/10.

4) I never really heard any stories about how hard green worked. guess I'll give him a 6/10.

5) trent green was absolutely in the perfect system for his skill set. he had priest holmes, tony gonzalez, eddie kennison and the best offensive line in...a long time. give him a 10/10 on this one. this is where he gets major points, and for good reason. give him a defense, and maybe we have a lombardi or two...

so, add em' up. 29/50.

let's further muddle things up.

franchise qb: 45-50 (best of the best: they're in the top 10% of points available)

fringe franchise qb: 35-44
above average: 25-34
below average: 15-24
not worth mentioning: 5-14
bust: 0-4

htismaqe
04-09-2009, 07:30 AM
Mister Bird Flu summed it up nicely in one word.

"IT"

I think the mental/emotional aspects to a QB's game - how he performs under pressure, how well he goes through progressions, what he works on in his off days, how he reacts to and leads his teammates, etc.

Chiefnj2
04-09-2009, 07:40 AM
Trent Green had a lot more "it" than people want to give him credit for. He was a good leader and had the respect of his teammates. He took tough hits and got up. He was never afraid to lead the way with a block. He wasn't fast, but he scrambled and went for the first down marker when he had to. Some people act like he had a weaker arm than Pennington.

luv
04-09-2009, 07:46 AM
Hell NO.

You listed Peyton Manning as a franchise QB, though. To me, Peyton is also a game manager. I figured that was just part of what it takes.

htismaqe
04-09-2009, 07:51 AM
Trent Green had a lot more "it" than people want to give him credit for. He was a good leader and had the respect of his teammates. He took tough hits and got up. He was never afraid to lead the way with a block. He wasn't fast, but he scrambled and went for the first down marker when he had to. Some people act like he had a weaker arm than Pennington.

I'm inclined to agree with you. It's just not as clear with him because he had a HoF supporting cast and seemed to get overshadowed by them.

Coogs
04-09-2009, 08:35 AM
They take games over. These are the kind of guys that you have to game plan around because they will beat you. Elway, Marino, Montana, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady all come to mind.


This.

You leave any time on the clock late in the game, and this type of QB will find a way to get it done. I didn't see to many Falcons games last year, but I did happen to be watching when the Bears had a victory in their back pocket, and let Ryan back on the field. Dude made them pay. To early to put him in that class listed above, but that is what franchise QB's do.

ChiefsCountry
04-09-2009, 11:44 AM
You listed Peyton Manning as a franchise QB, though. To me, Peyton is also a game manager.

Never say game manager and Peyton Manning in the same sentance.

DeezNutz
04-09-2009, 11:50 AM
You listed Peyton Manning as a franchise QB, though. To me, Peyton is also a game manager. I figured that was just part of what it takes.

Literally speaking, every QB "manages" a game, but this isn't the primary connotation of the word in NFL terms.

Left-handed compliment.

alpha_omega
04-09-2009, 11:52 AM
The ability to win consistently....and in the postseason.

Mecca
04-09-2009, 01:31 PM
The problem with Trent Greens it is he wasn't really good in pressure situation...

Count Zarth
04-09-2009, 01:37 PM
Accuracy, brains, the ability to stay healthy. Everything else is a bonus.


The problem with Trent Greens it is he wasn't really good in pressure situation...Eh I wouldn't say this. He wasn't Elway maybe but he wasn't a choker by any means. He led a lot of important drives late in games in his five good years.

Count Zarth
04-09-2009, 01:42 PM
Which is why using the analogy would be pointless it was going to be about playing with QB's with certain ratings.

I have an old franchise QB who gets hurt a lot now. When he went down in my last season my offense went to shit. I lost in the first round of the playoffs despite having the #1 seed because of it. My backup has some talent but he's just not accurate enough downfield. He even has ridiculous speed, but it doesn't make him for his lack of accuracy. Of course my receivers dropped five passes, which didn't help. But I killed the other team on the ground and my defense played an awesome game, until overtime when they collapsed...because I only scored 13 points...because my fucking quarterback choked....of course losing my surest-handed receiver didn't help. Basically it was a nightmare.

He's 36 now but I refuse to trade him. I'm going Carl Peterson and loading up on free agents. I might go a little conservative on offense to keep him healthy, though. He's lost a lot of his athleticism so I'm afraid what might happen if I expose him to the rush too much.

Crush
04-10-2009, 11:47 AM
When the game is on the line with less than two minutes to go, a game manager will look at the sidelines with a ****ing retarded look on his face. He will, in essence, confirm the fact that he has no balls.

A franchise QB carries the team on his back and wins the game.


Sample Quiz:

1. With 1:05 left in the game at your own 35, who do you want at QB?
a. Peyton Manning
b. Kyle Orton
c. Kerry Collins
d. Jeff Garcia

2. If you could have any QB to lead your team, who would you pick from the following choices?
a. Trent Dilfer, 2000 Baltimore Ravens
b. Mark Rypien, 1991 Washington Redskins
c. Brad Johnson, 2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
d. Joe Montana, 1989 San Francisco 49ers

3. If the Chiefs had the #1 overall pick in the 1989 NFL Draft, who would you want them to take?
1. Troy Aikman, QB, UCLA
2. Barry Sanders, RB, Oklahoma State
3. Tony Mandarich, OT, Michigan State
4. Deion Sanders, CB, Florida State
5. Derrick Thomas, LB, Alabama

OnTheWarpath58
04-10-2009, 12:27 PM
When the game is on the line with less than two minutes to go, a game manager will look at the sidelines with a ****ing retarded look on his face. He will, in essence, confirm the fact that he has no balls.

A franchise QB carries the team on his back and wins the game.


Sample Quiz:

1. With 1:05 left in the game at your own 35, who do you want at QB?
a. Peyton Manning
b. Kyle Orton
c. Kerry Collins
d. Jeff Garcia

2. If you could have any QB to lead your team, who would you pick from the following choices?
a. Trent Dilfer, 2000 Baltimore Ravens
b. Mark Rypien, 1991 Washington Redskins
c. Brad Johnson, 2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
d. Joe Montana, 1989 San Francisco 49ers

3. If the Chiefs had the #1 overall pick in the 1989 NFL Draft, who would you want them to take?
1. Troy Aikman, QB, UCLA
2. Barry Sanders, RB, Oklahoma State
3. Tony Mandarich, OT, Michigan State
4. Deion Sanders, CB, Florida State
5. Derrick Thomas, LB, Alabama

True Fan answers:

1) b, c or d

2) a, b or c

3) 2, 3 4 or 5.

OnTheWarpath58
04-10-2009, 12:28 PM
Accuracy, brains, the ability to stay healthy. Everything else is a bonus.

Eh I wouldn't say this. He wasn't Elway maybe but he wasn't a choker by any means. He led a lot of important drives late in games in his five good years.

Important drives, or game winning drives?

Count Zarth
04-10-2009, 12:35 PM
Important drives, or game winning drives?

Game winning drives, sure.

OnTheWarpath58
04-10-2009, 12:41 PM
Game winning drives, sure.

How many?

DrRyan
04-10-2009, 12:45 PM
Lets let look at examples - its easier than trying to explain in words.

Franchise QB
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Big Ben
Donovan McNabb
Phillip Rivers
Matt Ryan

Fringe Franchise QB's
Eli Manning
Tony Romo
Jay Cutler
Aaron Rodgers
Carson Palmer

Game Mangers
Chad Pennington
Kerry Collins
Trent Green
Tavarius Jackson/Gus Frettore
Kyle Orton

FYP. I have not yet understood why people lump Carson Palmer into the top echelon of QBs. IMO he has all the physical tools but has not yet put it together. Sure, things may have been different if his knee is not blown out on his first throw of the game against Pittsburgh, but he has not yet showed me he is a franchise QB.

Count Zarth
04-10-2009, 01:49 PM
How many?

I'll look it up later.

milkman
04-11-2009, 07:44 AM
When your team has the ball with about 1:30 left in the game, needing to drive 70 yards for a TD to win, with no timeouts left, and you know, you know, that your QB can get it done, even though he's had a mediocre game up to that point against a great defense, because he's done it time and again, then you have a franchise QB.

milkman
04-11-2009, 07:47 AM
The problem with Trent Greens it is he wasn't really good in pressure situation...

Exactly.

I'd be surprise if he lead the Chiefs to more than 5 late game winning drives in his five years.

When the Chiefs were down with little time on the clock, I had no confidence in Green to get the job done.