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Nightwish
04-13-2009, 07:47 PM
An appeal is likely, but it looks like Franken is the winner.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/minnesota_senate

ST. PAUL, Minn. – A Minnesota court confirmed Monday that Democrat Al Franken won the most votes in his 2008 Senate race against Republican Norm Coleman, who had already announced plans to appeal the decision.
Coleman has 10 days to appeal to the state Supreme Court. Once the petition is filed, it could further delay the seating of Minnesota's second senator for weeks.

After a statewide recount and seven-week trial, Franken stands 312 votes ahead. He gained more votes from the election challenge than Coleman, the candidate who brought the legal action.

The state law under which Coleman sued required three judges to determine who got the most votes and is therefore entitled to an election certificate, which is now on hold pending an appeal.

"The overwhelming weight of the evidence indicates that the November 4, 2008, election was conducted fairly, impartially and accurately," the judges wrote. "There is no evidence of a systematic problem of disenfranchisement in the state's election system, including in its absentee-balloting procedures."

In its order, the judicial panel dismissed two attempts by Coleman to subtract votes from Franken over allegations of mishandled ballots in Minneapolis.

The judges also rejected Coleman's argument that a state board improperly made up for a packet of ballots lost between the election. His lawyers conceded that the ballots' disappearance rendered them invalid and that Coleman was entitled to review all ballots as part of the recount.
Coleman's lawyers claimed dozens of ballots were double-counted when their originals couldn't be fed into optical scanning machines on Election Day. They said it was possible that originals and duplicates were included in the recount.

The ruling diminishes Coleman's chances of retaining a seat that he won in dramatic fashion in 2002, when he narrowly defeated former Vice President Walter Mondale. Democratic incumbent Paul Wellstone died in a plane crash with two weeks to go in the campaign.

Franken, a former "Saturday Night Live" comic, entered the Senate race more than two years ago. A third-party candidate's strong showing left Coleman and Franken virtually deadlocked on Election Night, triggering an automatic recount of 2.9 million ballots. Coleman led by about 700 votes before routine double-checking of figures trimmed his edge to 215 votes heading into the hand recount. By the recount's end in January, Franken had pulled ahead by 225 votes.

Coleman's trial began in January and his appeal could push the race into May or beyond.

Coleman's lawyers have said their appeal will mostly center on violations of the constitutional guarantee of equal protection, arguing that counties had differing standards in treating absentee ballots.

Franken's attorneys argued that no election is absolutely precise and that all counties operated under the same standard.

In addition to the appeal, Coleman can also initiate a new action on a federal level. Either side can appeal an eventual state Supreme Court decision to the U.S. Supreme Court or throw the disputed election before the U.S. Senate, which can judge the qualifications of its members.

Direckshun
04-13-2009, 07:48 PM
Fucking finally.

Take a seat, Al. Gives us a 59-seat majority. Holy. Fucking. Shit.

wild1
04-13-2009, 09:10 PM
it's going to the state supreme court, and the state isn't going to certify anything until all legal avenues have completely played out.

Mr. Kotter
04-13-2009, 09:28 PM
Well, if "every vote must be counted" is true....the MN S.C. will hear this case.

Of course, that was likely all just a bunch of partisan rhetoric when the shoe was on the other foot....

:hmmm:

Nightwish
04-13-2009, 10:23 PM
Of course, that was likely all just a bunch of partisan rhetoric when the shoe was on the other foot....
If you're referring to this case, the legal challenge was brought by the Republican candidate in the first place. If you're referring to 2000, Gore himself asked that the recount be stopped.

wild1
04-13-2009, 10:27 PM
If you're referring to this case, the legal challenge was brought by the Republican candidate in the first place. If you're referring to 2000, Gore himself asked that the recount be stopped.

... after dragging it out for two months when it was abundantly clear he had no path to victory

WoodDraw
04-13-2009, 10:28 PM
Once the appeal is denied by the state SC, he should be seated. Allowing the legal process to play out is fine and needed, but allowing candidates to indefinitely postpone an election with lawsuits unlike to succeed sets a terrible precedent.

Nightwish
04-13-2009, 10:34 PM
... after dragging it out for two months when it was abundantly clear he had no path to victory
It wasn't "abundantly clear." The margin of victory that was finally determined, on scale, was very similar to this one, and the vote irregularities were considerably more pronounced. The difference between the Dems in 2000 and the GOP in this case is that the Dems finally decided that it was more important to give the people a leader than to continue keeping them in limbo, whereas the GOP is now saying, "Screw what's best for the state, we want the seat at any cost!"

orange
04-13-2009, 11:12 PM
Back to Minnesota, 2009 - great bit of analysis here:

Judges’ ‘three votes’ give Al Franken convincing win in Senate recount trial
Analysis by Jay Weiner | Monday, April 13, 2009
When this 2008 U.S. Senate race is finally over, when all the appeals are exhausted, when its history is written – based on what we know today -- it will be said that Al Franken won the election and the seat of the junior senator from Minnesota by 312 votes.

But that will not be exactly correct.

After Monday’s long-awaited final legal ruling *, add three more votes to Franken’s tally: those of Judges Elizabeth Hayden, Kurt Marben and Den1se Reilly.

Technically, the three-judge panel that oversaw a seven-week-long trial that generated 19,181 pages of legal filings “voted” against Norm Coleman in their unanimous 56-page opinion, with another 12 pages of exhibits.

It was Coleman’s case to prove, and now he’ll get another chance when he appeals today’s ruling to the Minnesota Supreme Court within 10 days.

The judges, with definitive and deliberate language, said Coleman, who has been a U.S. senator for six years, didn’t come close to proving that, among other things: thousands of Minnesotans who cast absentee ballots were disenfranchised, that some ballots were counted twice or that the “equal protection” rights of Minnesota voters were violated.

Indeed, the judges listed 157 different “findings of fact,” and nary a one seemed to be in Coleman’s favor.

Hayden of St. Cloud, Marben of Thief River Falls and Reilly of Minneapolis – as they did with every ruling in this case which began in late January – wrote as one, as fact No. 28 clearly said: “All of the Orders entered by this Court throughout these proceedings have been unanimous.”

And Monday’s ruling flew in the face of just about everything Coleman’s lawyers sought to prove.

Let us count the ways:

• Coleman’s lawyers bashed the state’s voter registration system (SVRS), overseen by the secretary of state’s office, for being inaccurate and not up-to-date.

Not so, said the judges, who, in citing testimony, called the SVRS “accurate and reliable” and trustworthy.

• Coleman’s lawyers tried to show that thousands of voters were “disenfranchised” by the actions of local elections officials.

The judges: “The Court has received no evidence or testimony to support a finding of wholesale disenfranchisement of Minnesota’s absentee voters …”

• Coleman’s lawyers alleged that local election officials opened and counted ballots that should not have been counted on Election Day. The judges said there were no specific ballots cited and, besides, there was no evidence “these votes would have changed the outcome of the election and that Coleman would have received the highest number of votes.”

• Coleman’s lawyers tried to prove that some ballots were counted twice.

The panel: “The Court did not hear testimony from any precinct election judge that they duplicated damaged ballots and failed to mark the duplicates or the originals.”

• Coleman’s lawyers questioned the validity of 132 missing Minneapolis ballots. During the trial, Coleman attorney Joe Friedberg acknowledged the ballots once existed and then went missing. Until today, the judges hadn’t ruled on this.

In Monday’s ruling, the judges declared the 132 ballots “were cast and properly counted on Election Day.” As the State Canvassing Board ruled before them, those votes were included in the final count, giving Franken a net of 46 votes over Coleman.

• Coleman’s major claim – and the one that he will press in his appeal to the Minnesota Supreme Court – was summarily shot down by the judges. That involves the matter of “equal protection.”

They wrote; “Errors or irregularities identified by [Coleman] in the general election do not violate the mandates of equal protection.”

Later, in their full opinion, the judges acknowledged some votes were handled differently in different counties and precincts, but, “Equal protection … cannot be interpreted as raising every error in an election to the level of a constitutional violation … Equal protection does not guarantee a perfect election … Equal protection does not demand rigid sameness.”

Finally on this matter, the judges went right at Coleman’s assertion that some illegally cast ballots should be opened and counted now because some illegally cast ballots were opened and counted on Election Day.

“Following Contestants’ argument to its conclusion, the Court would be compelled to conclude that if one county mistakenly allowed felons to vote, then all counties would have to count the votes of felons.”

The judges called that “an absurd result.”

...

Reaction by Coleman’s side was short and scathing. An appeal to the Minnesota Supreme Court, sometime in the next 10 days, is a certainty, said Coleman legal spokesman Ben Ginsberg.

"More than 4,400 Minnesotans remain wrongly disenfranchised by this court's order,” Ginsberg said in a statement. “The court's ruling tonight is consistent with how they've ruled throughout this case but inconsistent with the Minnesota tradition of enfranchising voters. This order ignores the reality of what happened in the counties and cities on Election Day in terms of counting the votes. By its own terms, the court has included votes it has found to be 'illegal' in the contest to remain included in the final counts from Election Day, and equal protection and due process concerns have been ignored. For these reasons, we must appeal to the Minnesota Supreme Court so that no voter is left behind."

From Washington, the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee’s chairman, Sen. Robert Menendez of New Jersey said: "The people of Minnesota have many reasons to be proud tonight, not the least of which is knowing they have one of the best election systems in the entire country. A thorough election contest upheld the result of a meticulous recount. Al Franken won the election, Al Franken won the recount, Al Franken won the contest, and now Al Franken should be allowed to get to work for the people of Minnesota."

Rick Hasen, a leading election law expert at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, praised the judges’ reasoning.

The decision was emailed to members of the news media by court clerk Christopher Channing at exactly 5:59:59 Monday, one second before the clock struck 6 p.m. Exactly two hours later, Franken and his wife, Franni, practically skipped out of the door of their Elliott Park townhome, smiling and relaxed, to meet the media assembled on 10th Street.

The last time the two of them stood before the microphones and cameras to declare victory was 14 Mondays ago, they were in overcoats, and puffs of frost escaped from Franken’s mouth with each word.

Monday night, with a spring sun setting to his left, and the Twins playing baseball eight blocks away to his right, Franken declared victory again, talked of rebuilding the economy and repairing the health care system.

“We didn’t fight hard simply because we wanted to win,” Franken said of the campaign and the post-election legal tussles. “We fought hard because every Minnesotan knows someone who’s losing a job or a home, someone who’s struggling to pay for tuition or prescription drugs … It’s like Paul Wellstone always said: Politics isn’t about winning. It’s about the improvement of people’s lives … It’s a fight we must win by setting aside partisan gamesmanship and working together,” he said, sounding like the progressive senator he wants to be. “It’s long past time we got to work.”

For his part, Coleman told Channel 5’s Tom Hauser Monday night about the details of his appeal.

He spurned questions about any effects a protracted appeal could have on his political future or any suggestion he might run for governor next year should he lose this Senate race.

“I’m really not looking ahead to 2010,” Coleman told Hauser.

When Franken was asked if he’d urge Coleman to drop his appeal, Franken chuckled and said, “I’m sure that he’s made his mind up. I’m a pretty persuasive guy, but I don’t know if I could win that one with him.”

As for whether the Democrats in the Senate should seat Franken now, even before a Minnesota Supreme Court, ruling, Franken said, “That’s something I really have no control over … I really think this is something for the state of Minnesota … I think we’re gonna settle it right here.”

In his Channel 5 interview, a still combative Coleman told Hauser: “My fight ends when the ballots are counted.”

But the work of Hayden, Marben and Reilly is over and, in their view, all the appropriate ballots have been counted, and “The citizens of Minnesota should be proud of their election system.”

Still, we give the judges low marks for, as we say in the news biz, burying the lead.

It took them until Page 21 and finding Nos. 126, 127 and 128 to simply state: “Accordingly, Coleman received a total of 1,212,317 votes and Franken received a total of 1,212,629 votes in the race for United States Senator in the November 4, 2008 general election … Franken received the highest number of votes legally cast … Franken is entitled to receive the certificate of election.”

Their three votes backing those simple words are the most important votes today, and, when all is said and done, perhaps, for all of history.

Jay Weiner can be reached at jweiner@minnpost.com.

* Court decision here: http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/60825/COLEMANvFRANKENfinalfindingsoffact.pdf?elr=KArks8c7PaP3E77K_3c::D3aDhUec7PaP3E77K_0c::D3aDhUiD3aPc:_ Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUr


http://www.minnpost.com/stories/2009/04/13/8043/judges’_‘three_votes’_give_al_franken_convincing_win_in_senate_recount_trial

Mr. Kotter
04-13-2009, 11:13 PM
If you're referring to this case, the legal challenge was brought by the Republican candidate in the first place. If you're referring to 2000, Gore himself asked that the recount be stopped.

It wasn't "abundantly clear." The margin of victory that was finally determined, on scale, was very similar to this one, and the vote irregularities were considerably more pronounced. The difference between the Dems in 2000 and the GOP in this case is that the Dems finally decided that it was more important to give the people a leader than to continue keeping them in limbo, whereas the GOP is now saying, "Screw what's best for the state, we want the seat at any cost!"

I will repeat, for the Learning Disabled among us... if "every vote must be counted" is true....the MN S.C. will hear this case.

:hmmm:

orange
04-13-2009, 11:23 PM
I will repeat, for the Learning Disabled among us... if "every vote must be counted" is true....the MN S.C. will hear this case.

:hmmm:

Including all the ILLEGAL ones Coleman wants counted?

...said Coleman legal spokesman Ben Ginsberg.

"More than 4,400 Minnesotans remain wrongly disenfranchised by this court's order,” Ginsberg said in a statement. “The court's ruling tonight is consistent with how they've ruled throughout this case but inconsistent with the Minnesota tradition of enfranchising voters. This order ignores the reality of what happened in the counties and cities on Election Day in terms of counting the votes. By its own terms, the court has included votes it has found to be 'illegal' in the contest to remain included in the final counts from Election Day, and equal protection and due process concerns have been ignored. For these reasons, we must appeal to the Minnesota Supreme Court so that no voter is left behind."

blaise
04-13-2009, 11:26 PM
Al Franken is a douchebag.

Nightwish
04-13-2009, 11:27 PM
I will repeat, for the Learning Disabled among us... if "every vote must be counted" is true....the MN S.C. will hear this case.

:hmmm:
That's all fine and good. But you may have noticed that's not the part of your quote that I quoted and responded to.

Mr. Kotter
04-13-2009, 11:27 PM
Including all the ILLEGAL ones Coleman wants counted?

...said Coleman legal spokesman Ben Ginsberg.

"More than 4,400 Minnesotans remain wrongly disenfranchised by this court's order,” Ginsberg said in a statement. “The court's ruling tonight is consistent with how they've ruled throughout this case but inconsistent with the Minnesota tradition of enfranchising voters. This order ignores the reality of what happened in the counties and cities on Election Day in terms of counting the votes. By its own terms, the court has included votes it has found to be 'illegal' in the contest to remain included in the final counts from Election Day, and equal protection and due process concerns have been ignored. For these reasons, we must appeal to the Minnesota Supreme Court so that no voter is left behind."


Or the questionable and "illegal" ones "counted" by Franken and the MN DFL??? :shrug:

We'll see if the MN S.C. has balls or not...or if they wanna play a Ponzi-scheme on the lower court.

:hmmm:

That's all fine and good. But you may have noticed that's not the part of your quote that I quoted and responded to.

As I said, "Learning Diabled"....you ignored the most important part.

Nightwish
04-13-2009, 11:31 PM
Including all the ILLEGAL ones Coleman wants counted?
If the judges' opinion is an accurate rendering of what was presented to them, it would appear that Coleman simply alleged that there were illegal votes cast, but didn't bother to specify which ones or who they were for. Surely Coleman and his lawyers knew that the court would require some supporting documentation for their allegations. I would hope that someone hoping to represent an entire state in government would not expect the court to simply take his unsupported word for it.

Nightwish
04-13-2009, 11:34 PM
As I said, "Learning Diabled"....you ignored the most important part.
I ignored it because I didn't disagree with it. In fact, in my opening post, I said that an appeal was likely. I quoted and responded to the part of your post that you left vague and unclear, by way of hoping to get you to clarify your meaning. Instead of clarifying your statement, you've preferred to try to bait me into challenging a point which I had already stated agreement with before you even made your post. Now, what was that about "Learning Disabled?"

Mr. Kotter
04-13-2009, 11:38 PM
I ignored it because I didn't disagree with it. In fact, in my opening post, I said that an appeal was likely. I quoted and responded to the part of your post that you left vague and unclear, by way of hoping to get you to clarify your meaning. Instead of clarifying your statement, you've preferred to try to bait me into challenging a point which I had already stated agreement with before you even made your post. Now, what was that about "Learning Disabled?"

The second part of my first post was, purposefully, left vague....

In the pedagogical world, we call you a "Learning Disabled" student.

Nightwish
04-13-2009, 11:39 PM
Or the questionable and "illegal" ones "counted" by Franken and the MN DFL??? :shrug:
• Coleman’s lawyers alleged that local election officials opened and counted ballots that should not have been counted on Election Day. The judges said there were no specific ballots cited and, besides, there was no evidence “these votes would have changed the outcome of the election and that Coleman would have received the highest number of votes.”

Apparently, Coleman hoped they would just arbitrarily strip Franken of x number of votes, based solely on his allegation that his tally included illegal votes, but didn't bother to tell the court which votes were illegal, why they were illegal, or who these alleged illegal voters actually voted for.

Nightwish
04-13-2009, 11:41 PM
The second part of my first post was, purposefully, left vague....

In the pedagogical world, we call you a "Learning Disabled" student.
Gotcha. I'm "Learning Disabled," because you failed to notice I had already agreed with your first point before you even stated it. I'm "Learning Disabled," because I challenged you to clarify a comment you apparently lack the balls to clarify (either that, or you just didn't know WTF you were talking about, which wouldn't be surprising). Understood.

Mr. Kotter
04-13-2009, 11:42 PM
Gotcha. I'm "Learning Disabled," because you failed to notice I had already agreed with your first point before you even stated it. I'm "Learning Disabled," because I challenged you to clarify a comment you apparently lack the balls to clarify. Understood.

Well, that makes you a candidate for "mainstreaming" at least. Congrats on that. :thumb:

SBK
04-13-2009, 11:42 PM
59 votes in the Senate. That would scare me if Republicans had that, and I'm a Republican. I prefer a 50/50 split so they can't do dick.

Nightwish
04-13-2009, 11:43 PM
Well, that makes you a candidate for "mainstreaming" at least. Congrats on that. :thumb:
Are you posting drunk again?

Mr. Kotter
04-13-2009, 11:44 PM
Are you posting drunk again?

Embarrassing for you, that I'm not. Heh. ;)

Nightwish
04-13-2009, 11:55 PM
Embarrassing for you, that I'm not. Heh. ;)
It's not embarrassing for me. You're the one who stuck your foot in your mouth, claiming I "ignored" your most important point, failing to realize I had already stated it. And you're the one who still lacks either the balls or the clarity to explain which election you were talking about with your "the shoe is on the other foot" remark. If I had made the posts you've made in this thread, and wasn't drunk, I would be embarassed.

orange
04-13-2009, 11:58 PM
If the judges' opinion is an accurate rendering of what was presented to them, it would appear that Coleman simply alleged that there were illegal votes cast, but didn't bother to specify which ones or who they were for. Surely Coleman and his lawyers knew that the court would require some supporting documentation for their allegations. I would hope that someone hoping to represent an entire state in government would not expect the court to simply take his unsupported word for it.

Apparently, Coleman hoped they would just arbitrarily strip Franken of x number of votes, based solely on his allegation that his tally included illegal votes, but didn't bother to tell the court which votes were illegal, why they were illegal, or who these alleged illegal voters actually voted for.

That's not exactly right. I've been following this case - it has taken some interesting turns. The votes Coleman wanted stripped from Franken - the missing 132 ballots and the alleged duplicate ballots - are side issues that only involve a few dozen vote swing and weren't stressed by the Coleman team. In fact, the duplicate ballots allegation was so shaky it got them fined by the court for misconduct.

During the recount, Coleman argued against counting various defective absentee ballots that had been disqualified on various grounds. The Canvassing Board decided that some of them may have been improperly disqualified and ordered every county to put their disq. ballots in stacks depending on why they were disqualified pending the Board's ruling on whether to count them. Coleman didn't wait for their ruling, filed a suit at the Minn. Supreme Court to stop them from being counted. The MSC ruled against Coleman and ordered some of them to be counted, giving both campaigns and the Board the right to object to any ballot. After all the objections and counts, Franken emerged victorious.

Then Coleman launched his Contest - the case that was ruled on today. Since the MSC had already ruled that improperly disqualified ballots should be counted, Coleman reversed course and argued that ALL the disqualified ballots should be counted (since he needed as much chance as possible to change the outcome). After a series of arguments and rulings, Coleman was down to ca. 4400 ballots they insisted should be counted. That's when the three-judge panel issued what Coleman's team has dubbed their "Friday the 13th Ruling" which is the grounds for their coming appeal. The panel ruled that a strict ruling of Minnesota's election law would be used to determine which absentee ballots were improperly rejected.

Coleman's team has repeatedly objected to that ruling since then. They narrowed their list down to ca. 1329 ballots which they claimed fit the strict standard, but after presenting their evidence (or lack thereof), and Franken submitting his own much shorter list, the judges ruled that only about 380 more ballots would be counted - that gave Franken his current/final lead.

Coleman's team showed in the trial that some precincts checked the absentee ballots' witnesses against the rolls of registered voters, and disqualified ballots whose witness wasn't a registered voter. They also showed that other precincts didn't. This is the basis of their "unequal treatment" claim. Since the precincts that didn't check for that may have allowed some illegal ballots to be cast, they are arguing that all similar ballots should be counted. This is what the ruling is referring to when they say that Coleman didn't produce any actual number of such ballots or how they might have impacted the election.

If you're still awake after this, I commend you for your stamina - and I hope that makes sense.

In summary, Coleman in his appeal won't be asking for any Franken ballots to be stripped out - instead arguing that all the disqualified absentee ballots should be counted (or, as his lawyer has hinted at in interviews, that the election be thrown out because it's too close to call because the errors are more than the margin of victory).

dirk digler
04-14-2009, 08:03 AM
... after dragging it out for two months when it was abundantly clear he had no path to victory

As is Coleman 6 months after the fact. This is ridiculous and I hate Franken.

Amnorix
04-14-2009, 08:07 AM
It wasn't "abundantly clear." The margin of victory that was finally determined, on scale, was very similar to this one, and the vote irregularities were considerably more pronounced. The difference between the Dems in 2000 and the GOP in this case is that the Dems finally decided that it was more important to give the people a leader than to continue keeping them in limbo, whereas the GOP is now saying, "Screw what's best for the state, we want the seat at any cost!"

Also "we don't want to give the Democrats any better chance at cloture in the Senate at any cost".

blaise
04-14-2009, 08:07 AM
Just let him have it. There's people that think he'll do more to raise campaign funds for Republican candidates during the next elections because people will use him as a poster child for the guy you want to get rid of.

dirk digler
04-14-2009, 08:12 AM
Just let him have it. There's people that think he'll do more to raise campaign funds for Republican candidates during the next elections because people will use him as a poster child for the guy you want to get rid of.

I agree because it has been 6 months and nothing has really changed. They have counted all the votes at least 3 times. Coleman just needs to move on at this point and quit being a sore loser.

bkkcoh
04-14-2009, 08:16 AM
Nothing at all about this senate seat smells fishy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

blaise
04-14-2009, 08:27 AM
Jesse Ventura governor and now Al Franken for the Senate. Nice state.

Brock
04-14-2009, 08:29 AM
I wonder if he'll have jobs for Jeneane Garafalo and Victoria Jackson.

RINGLEADER
04-14-2009, 08:45 AM
Once the appeal is denied by the state SC, he should be seated. Allowing the legal process to play out is fine and needed, but allowing candidates to indefinitely postpone an election with lawsuits unlike to succeed sets a terrible precedent.

A lot of people on Gore's campaign thought the same thing about Bush's move to the federal courts.

That said, I think it will end up at the USSC who will politely decline intervention.

penchief
04-14-2009, 09:08 AM
Al Franken is a douchebag.

Norm Coleman is a bigger douchebag.

Amnorix
04-14-2009, 09:33 AM
A lot of people on Gore's campaign thought the same thing about Bush's move to the federal courts.

That said, I think it will end up at the USSC who will politely decline intervention.

Bush v. Gore stands mostly for the proposition that the proponents of judicial restraint only support the notion when it's in their interests to do so. If not, they're glad to be as activist as those they criticize.

Dave Lane
04-14-2009, 09:58 AM
Senator Al Franken is a douchebag.

FYP

Taco John
04-14-2009, 09:59 AM
Well, if "every vote must be counted" is true....the MN S.C. will hear this case.

Of course, that was likely all just a bunch of partisan rhetoric when the shoe was on the other foot....

:hmmm:



Every legal vote should be counted. Ones that don't fit the criteria for legality shouldn't be counted. Wouldn't you agree?

Iowanian
04-14-2009, 10:24 AM
Stewart Smalley, Twin City Senator.


I can't wait for the "Al Franken is a big fat douchebag" book to come out from his political opponents.

blaise
04-14-2009, 10:36 AM
Stewart Smalley, Twin City Senator.


I can't wait for the "Al Franken is a big fat douchebag" book to come out from his political opponents.

They'll need to print it before his one term is up.

Iowanian
04-14-2009, 10:42 AM
I wouldn't say that, the Twin Cities are a unique area of strange folks who like to think of themselves as the Hollywood of the midwest.

Duck Dog
04-14-2009, 03:41 PM
The twin city's is a dizzying maze of liberal elitism. The rest of the state is run by greedy farmers who rape the land of all it's resources in exchange for welfare. Both sides support Franken.

I did find the headline on Minneapolis's liberal news paper, The (RED)Star Tribune pretty funny.

'Fraken Winner'.

KC native
04-14-2009, 04:26 PM
FYP

ROFL

BucEyedPea
04-14-2009, 04:33 PM
The twin city's is a dizzying maze of liberal elitism. The rest of the state is run by greedy farmers who rape the land of all it's resources in exchange for welfare. Both sides support Franken.

I did find the headline on Minneapolis's liberal news paper, The (RED)Star Tribune pretty funny.

'Fraken Winner'.

They've got a not too small libetarian contingent up there. Remember Jesse Ventura won a governership. And Ron Paul came in at 16% in the R primary up there. One of the state's he did better in.

orange
04-14-2009, 04:36 PM
Scarborough to Coleman - "It's over"

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Ultra Peanut
04-14-2009, 04:59 PM
Al Franken is a douchebag.That's Senator Douchebag to you.

Ultra Peanut
04-14-2009, 05:00 PM
The twin city's is a dizzying maze of liberal elitism."Those elitist liebrulls. We sure are better than them!"

morphius
04-14-2009, 05:04 PM
Al Frankin in the senate, its enough to make a sane man ill.

Ultra Peanut
04-14-2009, 05:34 PM
Al Frankin in the senate, its enough to make a sane man ill.really now, is there no dignity remaining in public office?!?!?!?!

http://j.photos.cx/mn_reagan_bonzo-9de.jpg

mlyonsd
04-14-2009, 05:36 PM
really now, is there no dignity remaining in public office?!?!?!?!

http://j.photos.cx/mn_reagan_bonzo-9de.jpg

I didn't know Reagan knew Franken when he was a baby.

VAChief
04-14-2009, 05:43 PM
I didn't know Reagan knew Franken when he was a baby.

I thought it was his astrologer.

mlyonsd
04-14-2009, 05:52 PM
I thought it was his astrologer.

Everyone would do well with an astrologer like Reagan had.

Simplex3
04-14-2009, 06:19 PM
Once the appeal is denied by the state SC, he should be seated. Allowing the legal process to play out is fine and needed, but allowing candidates to indefinitely postpone an election with lawsuits unlike to succeed sets a terrible precedent.

Counting votes "found" in cars weeks after the election which fall well outside the statistical norm for one candidate is what set the bad precedent.

Nightwish
04-14-2009, 07:28 PM
Counting votes "found" in cars weeks after the election which fall well outside the statistical norm for one candidate is what set the bad precedent.
link?

Dave Lane
04-14-2009, 07:30 PM
link?

There isn't one but humor him :)

VAChief
04-14-2009, 07:49 PM
Everyone would do well with an astrologer like Reagan had.

Maybe but...

86835

:)

Simplex3
04-14-2009, 08:42 PM
link?

http://tinyurl.com/d286tr

Of course the election worker now denies it. She didn't at the time, mind you.

orange
04-14-2009, 09:00 PM
http://tinyurl.com/d286tr

Of course the election worker now denies it. She didn't at the time, mind you.



Pawlenty: No evidence of wrongdoing in MN election

David Edwards and Andrew McLemore
Published: Sunday November 16, 2008

Allegations of fraudulent election practices are patently false, Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty told Fox's Chris Wallace on Sunday.

Pawlenty said that there was no truth to the rumor that ballots were found in the trunk of an election official's car and said he doesn't know of any suspicious activity in the tight race between Sen. Norm Coleman and Al Franken.

"As of this moment we know of no actual evidence of wrongdoing or fraud in the process," Pawlenty said.

Earlier this week, Pawlenty told Fox's Megyn Kelly he thought the story of the found ballots sounded suspicious.

"There has not been a good explanation for that, Kelly. That's a very good question, but they've been included in the count pile which is concerning," Pawlenty said.

Sen. Coleman currently has a slim lead of 206 votes over Franken and a recount is expected.

Coleman's lawyer Fritz Knack first ran the story of the found ballots.

David Brauer of the Minnesota Post debunked the idea of ballot tampering, but pundits and reporters have continued to cite the story.

This video is from Fox's Fox News Sunday, broadcast Nov. 16, 2008

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Pawlenty_No_evidence_of_wrongdoing_in_1116.html




This is the link you meant us to click, right?

orange
04-14-2009, 09:11 PM
Minneapolis election director speaks: 'Ballots in my car' story false

You'd think Democrats would be content with last week's electoral rout. But judging from the odd doings in Minnesota, some in their party wouldn't mind adding to their jackpot by stealing a Senate seat for left-wing joker Al Franken. ... For example, there was Friday night's announcement by Minneapolis's director of elections that she'd forgotten to count 32 absentee ballots in her car. — Wall Street Journal, Nov. 12

--

Mark Twain’s quip is that “a lie travels halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes” is proving apt when it comes to Minnesota’s recount.

The “car ballot” anecdote has become the tent pole for Republicans and allies raising doubts about the recount’s fairness. Sometimes, re-tellers get Minneapolis Elections Director Cindy Reichert’s gender wrong — as in this Toronto Globe and Mail story, or on Fox News Wednesday, when our own Gov. Tim Pawlenty said:

“As I understand it, and this is based on news accounts, he claims that even though they were in his car, that they were never outside of his security or area of control, so the courts allowed that. It seems a little loose to me.”

Asked host Megyn Kelly, “What were they doing in his car?”

Pawlenty: “There has not been a good explanation for that, Kelly. That’s a very good question, but they’ve been included in the count pile which is concerning.”




Reichert is all too happy to provide an explanation. She says the “car ballot” story is “just not true,” painting a picture of normal balloting procedures twisted into something grotesquely misleading.

The “car ballot” story emerged Saturday from the mouth of Coleman lawyer Fritz Knaak, who, according to AP, told reporters, “We were actually told ballots had been riding around in her car for several days, which raised all kinds of integrity questions.”

Knaak never provided a source and did not return two MinnPost calls for comment. However, he was already backing off his story at the same press event. As that day’s Pioneer Press noted, “Knaak said he feels assured that what was going on with the 32 ballots was neither wrong nor unfair.”

Still, the lie that won’t die is that Reichert toted around ballots like an empty McDonald’s bag thrown into the back seat.



Before getting into the details, she makes three fundamental points:

1. The ballots were never in her car.

2. The ballots were never in anyone’s car for several days.

3. The ballots were never lost or forgotten, and spent Election Night until counting day in secure city facilities.


OK, so were the ballots ever in a car?

Yes. But stow the outrage until you hear the details.

As most folks know, there were a ton of absentee ballots this year. State law mandates voters return absentee ballots to elections offices, such as the Government Center or City Hall. Officials then must deliver the ballots to individual precincts on Election Day for tallying.

Since the "Star Trek" teleporter has not yet been invented, these ballots are driven to the polling places.

Yes, in cars — like they are every year, throughout Minnesota. (Ramsey County officials confirm they do this, too, for example.)

“What I find ludicrous is that this goes on all around the state,” Reichert says. “If we could process them [at City Hall] we’d love to do that.”

In Minneapolis, the cargo is transported by “precinct support judges,” one for each ward. Seven of the city’s 2008 “PSJs” were declared Democrats, three Republican, two independents and one listed no affiliation.

At about 7 p.m. Election Night, the county sent the city a batch of “uniformed overseas citizens” absentee ballots — from military personnel and Minnesotans living abroad. The ballots have two envelopes — an outer one with basic registration information, and an inner security envelope with the actual vote.

City Hall staff checks the outer envelope to assure registration validity. They then sort the envelopes into 131 Minneapolis precincts for delivery.

Ballots are further sorted byfive differing absentee-voting instructions. (For example, some electronically delivered overseas ballots don’t come back in machine-readable form, so precinct judges must transcribe them onto optically scannable sheets.)

Then they have to be handed to the PSJs, who have to travel a 10- or 11-precinct circuit so judges on-site can open the inner security envelope and cast the vote.

For this final batch, it all had to happen in as little as an hour.

Driving the ballots
The drivers went out about 7:30 p.m. Reichert soon heard from some who were worried they might not get to every precinct before closing. Once a precinct judge removes a tallying machine memory card, votes can no longer be counted there.

Reichert says she sent a broadcast message to each precinct’s lead judge to keep sites open, but not everyone received it. Some less-busy sites shut down before the drivers got there.

In accordance with longstanding procedures, the couriers immediately brought the uncounted, unopened ballots — 28 of the now-famous 32 — back to City Hall, where they were stored in a secure room.

(The other four ballots were accidentally unprocessed in the precincts, and were also returned that night to the same place.)

So: The ballots were in cars because state law mandates precinct counting. An election judge always had custody, and they were never “lost.” They were not in vehicles overnight and spent Election Night, and the next several nights, tucked away safely in City Hall.

The Saturday count
Reichert says the Coleman camp knew of the uncounted ballots on Thursday, when she told a volunteer “guardian of the ballots” about them. On Friday, Reichert called Coleman’s office to tell them they’d be counted Saturday; she doesn’t remember who took the call.

On Saturday, Coleman filed suit, with Knaak uttering his now-infamous quote.

Did Reichert use the word “lost” when talking to Coleman’s forces? “No!” she exclaims.

What about "car"?

She laughs. “I don’t know. We were all really tired on Thursday. I’ve been wracking my brain trying to recall what I said that made them think this. I talked to their attorney Friday night, explained this whole situation.”

So why weren’t the ballots counted until Saturday?

Reichert says she needed to get back each precinct's voter rolls to assure absentee voters didn't cast in-person ballots Election Day. Truckers bring back precinct supplies to the city’s elections warehouse throughout election week. Enough equipment came back Friday to count the first 28 votes Saturday.

For the record, those ballots, plus the four mistakenly uncounted precinct ones, made a final car trip that morning. They were driven from City Hall to the warehouse — accompanied by three election judges from differing parties.

In the end, Franken claimed 18 of the 32 votes and Coleman got seven. The rest were non-votes or for other candidates.

http://www.minnpost.com/davidbrauer/2008/11/12/4565/minneapolis_election_director_speaks_ballots_in_my_car_story_false


Or perhaps this is the one.

Nightwish
04-15-2009, 01:04 AM
Or perhaps this is the one.
I'm certain that this is the one Symplex hoped we would find. I imagine he enjoys shooting himself in the foot.

Ultra Peanut
04-15-2009, 04:57 AM
Counting votes "found" in cars weeks after the election which fall well outside the statistical norm for one candidate is what set the bad precedent.you fucking tard

Nightwish
04-15-2009, 05:23 AM
Counting votes "found" in cars weeks after the election which fall well outside the statistical norm for one candidate is what set the bad precedent.
How do votes that were transported in a car and kept at City Hall and counted the Saturday after the election translate into "weeks after the election?"

How far outside the statistical norm for one candidate are 18 votes out of a total 32?

Duck Dog
04-15-2009, 08:39 AM
really now, is there no dignity remaining in public office?!?!?!?!

http://j.photos.cx/mn_reagan_bonzo-9de.jpg

Comparing Reagan to Franken? Wow, you really a little mixed up, eh?

Duck Dog
04-15-2009, 08:43 AM
They've got a not too small libetarian contingent up there. Remember Jesse Ventura won a governership. And Ron Paul came in at 16% in the R primary up there. One of the state's he did better in.

Do I remember Jesse Ventura? I remember it well, I was wee lad of 32 when he was elected.

ChiTown
04-15-2009, 08:57 AM
Comparing Reagan to Franken? Wow, you really a little mixed up, eh?

and water is wet.

stevieray
04-15-2009, 09:09 AM
..and that's okaaay..he's in therapy..(adjusts sweater around shulders)

Dave Lane
04-15-2009, 09:46 AM
Comparing Reagan to Franken? Wow, you really a little mixed up, eh?

Not that big a difference. Reagan was fundamentally wrong with his approach and we have paid for that for 20+ years. Having said that I did vote for him twice, so even I make mistakes...

beer bacon
04-15-2009, 10:14 AM
Count all the votes (I hope the Supreme Court decides in my candidate's favor against the results of the election)!

Chief Henry
04-15-2009, 10:21 AM
Not that big a difference. Reagan was fundamentally wrong with his approach and we have paid for that for 20+ years. Having said that I did vote for him twice, so even I make mistakes...


Fundamentally wrong ? :rolleyes:

ChiTown
04-15-2009, 10:39 AM
Not that big a difference. Reagan was fundamentally wrong with his approach and we have paid for that for 20+ years. .

Holy crap!

Are you serious? Fundamentally wrong? ROFL

KC native
04-15-2009, 10:43 AM
Fundamentally wrong ? :rolleyes:

Yes he was fundamentally wrong. Supply side economics doesn't work.

Brock
04-15-2009, 12:25 PM
Yes he was fundamentally wrong. Supply side economics doesn't work.

Whether that's right or wrong I don't know, but it's the way it is and it isn't going to change.

MOhillbilly
04-15-2009, 01:07 PM
Whether that's right or wrong I don't know, but it's the way it is and it isn't going to change.

that aint no shit. the world got a whole lot bigger in the past 20 years.

Mr. Kotter
04-15-2009, 01:23 PM
Count all the votes (I hope the Supreme Court decides in my candidate's favor against the results of the election)!

Minus "Supreme" that's the argument Franken used to get this "victory"..... :hmmm:

orange
04-15-2009, 01:34 PM
Minus "Supreme" that's the argument Franken used to get this "victory"..... :hmmm:

That's hilarious. Franken won after the recount - he had the most votes.

This court case was BROUGHT BY COLEMAN to reverse the election results.

Every time more votes have been counted, Franken's lead has INCREASED.

Coleman's continuing effort is all about one thing - DELAY. Keeping Franken's vote out of the Senate as long as possible.

Nightwish
04-15-2009, 02:45 PM
Minus "Supreme" that's the argument Franken used to get this "victory"..... :hmmm:
Franken didn't file the suit, Coleman did.

Mr. Kotter
04-15-2009, 02:48 PM
Franken didn't file the suit, Coleman did.

The original case....for the "recount"? :shrug:

orange
04-15-2009, 02:54 PM
The original case....for the "recount"? :shrug:

AUTOMATIC under Minnesota law (because of the narrowness of the vote margin).

You do agree Minnesota ought to follow its law, don't you?

Mr. Kotter
04-15-2009, 02:58 PM
AUTOMATIC under Minnesota law (because of the narrowness of the vote margin).

You do agree Minnesota ought to follow its law, don't you?

Sure. You've obviously followed this more than I have, because with the DFL in MN....I anticipated this "outcome." My recollection was that after the initial "recount"....there was another "recount" which was compelled by a court action initiated by Franken. Perhaps I'm mistaken, though.

:hmmm:

orange
04-15-2009, 03:09 PM
Sure. You've obviously followed this more than I have, because with the DFL in MN....I anticipated this "outcome." My recollection was that after the initial "recount"....there was another "recount" which was compelled by a court action initiated by Franken. Perhaps I'm mistaken, though.

:hmmm:

What you're probably referring to was the "adjustment" of the original election night vote tallies in the days immediately after the election. That was simply a matter of clerical double-checking - like what went on in New York last week. That reduced Coleman's initially reported lead from ca 700 to ca 200 - but that didn't entail any actual recounting. The recounting came later.

That initial adjustment is SOP in any election. The recount in this one was triggered by the closeness of the vote. Franken hasn't initiated any court action involving the recount. He DID file a suit after the recount to be seated provisionally while Coleman's court case was tried, but he was rebuffed by the Minn. Supreme Court.

Mr. Kotter
04-15-2009, 03:32 PM
What you're probably referring to was the "adjustment" of the original election night vote tallies in the days immediately after the election. That was simply a matter of clerical double-checking - like what went on in New York last week. That reduced Coleman's initially reported lead from ca 700 to ca 200 - but that didn't entail any actual recounting. The recounting came later.

That initial adjustment is SOP in any election. The recount in this one was triggered by the closeness of the vote. Franken hasn't initiated any court action involving the recount. He DID file a suit after the recount to be seated provisionally while Coleman's court case was tried, but he was rebuffed by the Minn. Supreme Court.

Thanks for the clarification.

wild1
04-15-2009, 05:51 PM
somehow, the only possible person was located who would be more embarrassing than Jesse Ventura.

penchief
04-15-2009, 06:22 PM
somehow, the only possible person was located who would be more embarrassing than Jesse Ventura.

Says you.

Coleman is a lackey and a bigger douchebag than Franken could ever dream of being.

mlyonsd
04-15-2009, 06:55 PM
Says you.

Coleman is a lackey and a bigger douchebag than Franken could ever dream of being.

That's because Franken doesn't think he's a douchebag even though he is, thus he doesn't ever dream of being one.

FTR I think this has run its course. Time to move on. Franken can't do any worse than the congress that's already in place, let the voters of MN figure out in 6 years if they like him or not.

orange
04-15-2009, 07:06 PM
That's because Franken doesn't think he's a douchebag even though he is, thus he doesn't ever dream of being one.

FTR I think this has run its course. Time to move on. Franken can't do any worse than the congress that's already in place, let the voters of MN figure out in 6 years if they like him or not.

5.5

Mr. Kotter
04-15-2009, 07:08 PM
5.5

Maybe a MN SC & a U.S. SC appeals can take another .3 or .4 yrs off of it. :hmmm:

:)

mlyonsd
04-15-2009, 07:13 PM
5.5

I think the new Senate was sworn in sometime in January. So that makes it about 5.75. :p

penchief
04-16-2009, 09:06 AM
That's because Franken doesn't think he's a douchebag even though he is, thus he doesn't ever dream of being one.

FTR I think this has run its course. Time to move on. Franken can't do any worse than the congress that's already in place, let the voters of MN figure out in 6 years if they like him or not.

I agree. Franken can't do any worse than the lockstep republican congress that rubber stamped Bush's cluster****.

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2009, 10:08 AM
I agree. Franken can't do any worse than the lockstep republican congress that rubber stamped Bush's cluster****.


Or like the lockstep democratic congress that rubber stampts Obama's stuff, either....right?

:rolleyes:

penchief
04-16-2009, 10:15 AM
Or like the lockstep democratic congress that rubber stampts Obama's stuff, either....right?

:rolleyes:

If deep into Obama's term that turns out to be the case I'll be the first to be critical. But I think it is already apparent that democrats aren't going to be nearly as unified as the republican congress was. Most of what is going on now is deference to the newly elected president in the context of an economic crisis. Democrats are traditionally all over the board and that will begin to take shape again. Republicans have proven their ideological rigidness over a long period of time by being in lockstep over just about everything no matter how extreme or how destructive to the country.

Mr. Kotter
04-16-2009, 10:17 AM
If deep into Obama's term that turns out to be the case I'll be the first to be critical. But I think it is already apparent that democrats aren't going to be nearly as unified as the republican congress was. Democrats are all over the board. Republicans have proven their ideological rigidness by being in lockstep over just about everything no matter how extreme or how destructive to the country.

You wouldn't "see" it if it were a snake laying in bed next too you.

penchief
04-16-2009, 10:24 AM
You wouldn't "see" it if it were a snake laying in bed next too you.

Your presumption about me is incorrect. I can only go on what I observe. My observations are what form my opinions. And unlike some people, my objective observations won't allow me to pretend to be a "non-partisan" when I have come to certain conclusions based on my observing.

However, I will have no problem being critical of Obama or any liberal if I have a problem with their words or actions. In fact, I think a review of my posts will reveal quite a lot of criticisms of the democratic party, some of it very harsh.