Why did Timothy McVeigh carry out the bombing?

[petegz28]

What was his motivation for doing such?

[wild1]

Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc

I anxiously await the attempt to tie in with people who dissent with the current state of American politics though...

[petegz28]

Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc

I anxiously await the attempt to tie in with people who dissent with the current state of American politics though...

Well according to people the DHS have on staff and\or consult...he conceived his hatred for the Fed Gov in Iraq.

[Deberg_1990]

Obviously he didnt want to pay his taxes.

[wild1]

Well according to people the DHS have on staff and\or consult...he conceived his hatred for the Fed Gov in Iraq.

It's not like he kept his reasons a secret. Go to the internet and read what he said about it.

[VAChief]

Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc

I anxiously await the attempt to tie in with people who dissent with the current state of American politics though...

You mean ignorant generalizations applied unfairly to others? Any dissent means you are a traitor, etc. Yes, I think we have seen enough of that un-American behavior for awhile.

[petegz28]

It's not like he kept his reasons a secret. Go to the internet and read what he said about it.

I know. I am not arguing with you. What you stated is correct. My point is that the DHS is using him as a poster child and lying about why he did what he did now to cover their assertion that war veterans are a risk.

[wild1]

I know. I am not arguing with you. What you stated is correct. My point is that the DHS is using him as a poster child and lying about why he did what he did now to cover their assertion that war veterans are a risk.

there is nothing new about this, they were blaming it on talk radio before the dust had even settled.

[petegz28]

there is nothing new about this, they were blaming it on talk radio before the dust had even settled.

I am telling you that this is what they are reporting today from the TEA parties.

[blaise]

Mostly because he was a nutcase fuckface asswipe.

[wild1]

I am telling you that this is what they are reporting today from the TEA parties.

are you surprised that the administration would try to cast any detractors as mentally imbalanced and dangerous?

[petegz28]

are you surprised that the administration would try to cast any detractors as mentally imbalanced and dangerous?

NO! Damn....the concept of being rhetorical seems to lost on you for some reason

[wild1]

NO! Damn....the concept of being rhetorical seems to lost on you for some reason

If the question in the title of this topic was rhetorical, does that mean that no one was supposed to reply to it?

[penchief]

Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc

I anxiously await the attempt to tie in with people who dissent with the current state of American politics though...

Not at all. But if people really believe that Obama represents socialism and coming fascism why in the hell weren't they out there protesting when Bush was actually practicing right wing fascism (torture, domestic spying, government secrecy, corporate supremacy, military aggression, invasion of privacy, erosion of civil liberties, elimination of legal protections, etc.)?

Also, I find it humorous that so many hypocrites are protesting taxes under Obama when the vast majority are paying significantly less taxes under Obama's stimulus package than they were under Bush's tax cuts. I lived through both the Bush and Reagan tax cuts and compared to the wee tiny bit of relief that I saw with those tax cuts (intended to benefit the wealthy) the Obama tax cut is a boon.

It's amazing to me that so many people will fall for bogus rhetoric without really gaging for themselves what the reality is. A lot of people probably just don't care what the reality is as long as their political ideology prevails. And that is where the Timothy McVeigh mentality comes from. If they can't have their way they're going to take their ball and go home even if it means blowing shit up. That mentality is much more prevalent with the right wing than most people care to believe.

Pretty soon BEP will be swooping in to declare that McVeigh was really a liberal.

[wild1]

Not at all. But if people really believe that Obama represents socialism and coming fascism why in the hell weren't they out there protesting when Bush was actually practicing right wing fascism

:LOL:


Also, I find it humorous that so many hypocrites are protesting taxes under Obama when the vast majority are paying significantly less taxes under Obama's stimulus package than they were under Bush's tax cuts.

The protest is not against taxation, but the shocking level of government expansion, of which the overall trend of increasing taxation is a component.

[petegz28]

If the question in the title of this topic was rhetorical, does that mean that no one was supposed to reply to it?

Dude, get over yourself for 2 secs. You and I agree on why he did what he did. Ok?

[wild1]

Dude, get over yourself for 2 secs. You and I agree on why he did what he did. Ok?

It doesn't matter who agrees, the facts are on the record from his own pen.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Even if he had the same beliefs as me in every way, and he did what he did, that doesn't detract from me any more than someone having squeaky boots makes their religion somehow ridiculous.

[petegz28]

It doesn't matter who agrees, the facts are on the record from his own pen.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Even if he had the same beliefs as me in every way, and he did what he did, that doesn't detract from me any more than someone having squeaky boots makes their religion somehow ridiculous.

UGH...do I have to break out the crayons? I want to see how many of the sheeple here believe the BS coming from the media or actually know the facts?

[wild1]

UGH...do I have to break out the crayons? I want to see how many of the sheeple here believe the BS coming from the media or actually know the facts?

I see. Did you feel that your ruse was clever, and that no one would see through what you were trying to do?

[penchief]

:LOL:


I don't know why you think that is so funny. Apparently you have no concept of what fascism has historically represented. Your education must consist of the recent rewriting of it's meaning by the right wing echo chamber.

The protest is not against taxation, but the shocking level of government expansion, of which the overall trend of increasing taxation is a component.

You can thank Bush for so much of this. Not only did he expand the government to benefit the military industrial complex (fascism) and the corporatocracy (fascism), he intentionally neglected the nation's infrastructure and undermined representative government (fascism) in the process. Much of the government's expansion would not have been necessary if the Retrocons hadn't saw fit to run our country into the ground for the sake of consolidating power and wealth.

[petegz28]

I see. Did you feel that your ruse was clever, and that no one would see through what you were trying to do?

Oh JFC, wtf is your problem?

[Nightwish]

Well according to people the DHS have on staff and\or consult...he conceived his hatred for the Fed Gov in Iraq.

...

My point is that the DHS is using him as a poster child and lying about why he did what he did now to cover their assertion that war veterans are a risk.


Where are you getting this from? You're certainly not getting it from the AP article that Banyon posted and linked to.

Here is what the AP article had to say about returning veterans:

The report warned that military veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan with combat skills could be recruitment targets, especially those having trouble finding jobs or fitting back into civilian society.

The department "is concerned that right-wing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to boost their violent capabilities," the report said.

Note that nowhere did it characterize returning veterans as "a risk." It said that they are likely targets for recruitment from groups that would seek to exploit their combat abilities. This does mean they are likely to accept recruitment, just that they are likely to be targeted for it.

Now, here is the one and ONLY thing the article said about McVeigh:

Government scrutiny disrupted violent plots following the April 1995 bombing of a federal building in Oklahoma City by Army veteran Timothy McVeigh which killed 168 people.

It mentions that he was an army veterans, but makes no further speculation about a connection between his army service and his motives for the bombing. Unless you are aware of some other source which relates the DHS's position on McVeigh's motives, then it would seem you are doing a helluva lot more speculating than anyone involved in that article.

[wild1]

I don't know why you think that is so funny. Apparently you have no concept of what fascism has historically represented.

Well, you are truly a master of ironic humor.

[petegz28]

Where are you getting this from? You're certainly not getting it from the AP article that Banyon posted and linked to.

Here is what the AP article had to say about returning veterans:



Note that nowhere did it characterize returning veterans as "a risk." It said that they are likely targets for recruitment from groups that would seek to exploit their combat abilities. This does mean they are likely to accept recruitment, just that they are likely to be targeted for it.

Now, here is the one and ONLY thing the article said about McVeigh:


It mentions that he was an army veterans, but makes no further speculation about a connection between his army service and his motives for the bombing. Unless you are aware of some other source which relates the DHS's position on McVeigh's motives, then it would seem you are doing a helluva lot more speculating than anyone involved in that article.

PErhaps you should pay more attention to the reporting from the TEA parties today, hmmm?

[wild1]

Oh JFC, wtf is your problem?

Forgive me, I probably do not have your level of education or experience. I am merely trying to appreciate the work of a true genius.

[petegz28]

Forgive me, I probably do not have your level of education or experience. I am merely trying to appreciate the work of a true genius.

You're being a total fuckhead who thinks I was here to pick an argument with you personally. Instead of accepting the fact we are of the same reasoning on the topic.

[jAZ]

Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc

I anxiously await the attempt to tie in with people who dissent with the current state of American politics though...

Michelle Malkin and Rush Limbaugh are eager to make that connection, so long as it's the Obama DHS providing the above answer and not another conservative.

[Nightwish]

PErhaps you should pay more attention to the reporting from the TEA parties today, hmmm?
What are they saying? Do they have someone there from DHS laying out their position? Or is it, as I suspect, a bunch of people offering up opinions on the DHS because they're outraged that the government is including the extremists of their stripe in it routine profiling?

[wild1]

You're being a total ****head who thinks I was here to pick an argument with you personally. Instead of accepting the fact we are of the same reasoning on the topic.

Regrettably, I concede that we sometimes agree. I just enjoy tweaking you because you're a douchenozzle.

[Nightwish]

Forgive me, I probably do not have your level of education or experience. I am merely trying to appreciate the work of a true genius.
Wild1, I don't what you're trying to get at with pete. He and I rarely agree on things (at least, not politically), but I can assure you, he isn't trying to pull any wool over your eyes. He's pretty right-wing and conservative when it comes to politics.

[petegz28]

Regrettably, I concede that we sometimes agree. I just enjoy tweaking you because you're a douchenozzle.

And you look like a butt without a crack.

[wild1]

And you look like a butt without a crack.

A very interesting insult. I shall have to ask my son what that means.

[petegz28]

What are they saying? Do they have someone there from DHS laying out their position? Or is it, as I suspect, a bunch of people offering up opinions on the DHS because they're outraged that the government is including the extremists of their stripe in it routine profiling?

It was a Tom someoe reporting...the guy from the Southern Poverty whatever, whatever.

Dudem even Dem politicians are saying the DHS crossed the line. For fuck sake, even the God damn ACLU is saying so.

[Nightwish]

And you look like a butt without a crack.
Well, that's a new one!

[petegz28]

A very interesting insult. I shall have to ask my son what that means.

Yeah, you do that.

[Nightwish]

It was a Tom someoe reporting...the guy from the Southern Poverty whatever, whatever.

Dudem even Dem politicians are saying the DHS crossed the line. For **** sake, even the God damn ACLU is saying so.
I don't think the DHS crossed the line. But they are a convenient target for public ire, which tends to be staunchly opposed to profiling, despite its value in law enforcement. But it isn't the fact that the profiling goes on that really pisses people off, it is the ways in which profiling data can be used abusively. It's the abuses of profiling that raise our ire, and the source of the material they abuse is often the most convenient target. When the DHS concluded that opposition to military recruitment is a common thread in left-wing extremism, it wasn't their fault that the Pentagon stepped over the line and used that criterion alone to place a PTA group on a terror watch list, rather than first making sure that they also met the other criteria. It was the Pentagon's fault that happened. And if some police officer pulls over someone because they're sporing a Ron Paul sticker because he read and misunderstood this report, it won't be the DHS's fault that the officer crossed the line, it will be the officer's fault.

[SBK]

Not at all. But if people really believe that Obama represents socialism and coming fascism why in the hell weren't they out there protesting when Bush was actually practicing right wing fascism (torture, domestic spying, government secrecy, corporate supremacy, military aggression, invasion of privacy, erosion of civil liberties, elimination of legal protections, etc.)?

Also, I find it humorous that so many hypocrites are protesting taxes under Obama when the vast majority are paying significantly less taxes under Obama's stimulus package than they were under Bush's tax cuts. I lived through both the Bush and Reagan tax cuts and compared to the wee tiny bit of relief that I saw with those tax cuts (intended to benefit the wealthy) the Obama tax cut is a boon.

It's amazing to me that so many people will fall for bogus rhetoric without really gaging for themselves what the reality is. A lot of people probably just don't care what the reality is as long as their political ideology prevails. And that is where the Timothy McVeigh mentality comes from. If they can't have their way they're going to take their ball and go home even if it means blowing shit up. That mentality is much more prevalent with the right wing than most people care to believe.

Pretty soon BEP will be swooping in to declare that McVeigh was really a liberal.

Even though you're by far the smartest person here, obviously, you still haven't figured out that Bush=Obama.

[SBK]

Why did he do it? Who cares, the guy was a freaking nutjob, the kind you have to protect yourself against.

Why did the folks blow up the world trade center? Who cares, they were nutjobs, the kind you need to protect yourself against.

Why these people do this doesn't matter, because you don't prevent nutjobs from being nutjobs by changing your own behavior. You cannot change them.

[Iowanian]

Because he was a twisted Psycho?



Maybe he was just misunderstood and disenfranchised in some way, but he committed that attrocity because he was a nutjob's asshole.

[Reaper16]

Mostly because he was a nutcase fuckface asswipe.Seems accurate.

[petegz28]

Why did he do it? Who cares, the guy was a freaking nutjob, the kind you have to protect yourself against.

Why did the folks blow up the world trade center? Who cares, they were nutjobs, the kind you need to protect yourself against.

Why these people do this doesn't matter, because you don't prevent nutjobs from being nutjobs by changing your own behavior. You cannot change them.

Well, knowing why people do the things they do seems key in knowing how to protect yourself from it.

[petegz28]

Because he was a twisted Psycho?



Maybe he was just misunderstood and disenfranchised in some way, but he committed that attrocity because he was a nutjob's asshole.

I agree except on the point of that is why he did it. He didn't just wake up one day and say "I'm going to go blow some people up". Granted he was a nutjob.

[Pioli Zombie]

Obama caused the Oklahoma City bombing
Posted via Mobile Device

[SBK]

Well, knowing why people do the things they do seems key in knowing how to protect yourself from it.

No, not the why, you have to learn the warning signs. What did they do to give away what they were planning?

The Columbine kids, the psycho mom that drowns her kids, the list goes on forever. Why they did it is because they're insane, when they gave signs they were crazy is what matters. If you learn the signs, then you can protect yourself.

[petegz28]

No, not the why, you have to learn the warning signs. What did they do to give away what they were planning?

The Columbine kids, the psycho mom that drowns her kids, the list goes on forever. Why they did it is because they're insane, when they gave signs they were crazy is what matters. If you learn the signs, then you can protect yourself.

Sorry but that is not entirely true. It is always good to know why someone did what they did. If you learn those things it helps you pick up on the signs a lot easier. Your philosophy is purely reactionary. Mine is more proactive in it seeks to understand and therefore gives me additional options to avoid, not just difuse and\or protect.

[SBK]

Sorry but that is not entirely true. It is always good to know why someone did what they did. If you learn those things it helps you pick up on the signs a lot easier. Your philosophy is purely reactionary. Mine is more proactive in it seeks to understand and therefore gives me additional options to avoid, not just difuse and\or protect.

Hope you enjoy pissing in the wind.

[Nightwish]

No, not the why, you have to learn the warning signs. What did they do to give away what they were planning?

The Columbine kids, the psycho mom that drowns her kids, the list goes on forever. Why they did it is because they're insane, when they gave signs they were crazy is what matters. If you learn the signs, then you can protect yourself.
That's kind of like saying a doctor should cure measles by scraping off the bumps. After all, it's only the signs that matter, the underlying cause doesn't mean squat, right?

[petegz28]

Hope you enjoy pissing in the wind.

It isn't pissing in the wind at all. No more so than it is to look for a needle in a haystack, e.g. waiting for signs to emerge.

[SBK]

It isn't pissing in the wind at all. No more so than it is to look for a needle in a haystack, e.g. waiting for signs to emerge.

The point is that there will always be nutjobs, and there will always be people that do things that defy explanation. Horrific awful things. Figuring out why (which will always be different for each individual case) is far less important than learning the warning signs one displays before they fly off the handle.

[SBK]

That's kind of like saying a doctor should cure measles by scraping off the bumps. After all, it's only the signs that matter, the underlying cause doesn't mean squat, right?

There is no cure for nutjobs.

[petegz28]

The point is that there will always be nutjobs, and there will always be people that do things that defy explanation. Horrific awful things. Figuring out why (which will always be different for each individual case) is far less important than learning the warning signs one displays before they fly off the handle.

Sure there will. That doesn't mean you don't seek to understand. And it is just as important. If you understand your "enemy" you are that much better prepared and possibly in a position to manipulate the situation. That is just common sense.

The problem with "warning signs" is we have laws and liberties. So until someone does something wrong you can't do shit based off of warning signs. Like people taking lessons on how to fly a plane but not land it.

[Nightwish]

There is no cure for nutjobs.
That was the conventional wisdom ... in the Middle Ages.

[SBK]

That was the conventional wisdom ... in the Middle Ages.

I look forward to you ending rape in the world.

[petegz28]

I look forward to you ending rape in the world.

That is such a weak argument.

[SBK]

That is such a weak argument.

Ok, I nominate everyone who thinks you can cure the world of the crazy nutjobs to be commander of our overseas contingency operation.

[petegz28]

Ok, I nominate everyone who thinks you can cure the world of the crazy nutjobs to be commander of our overseas contingency operation.

Once again you have to resort to extremist sarcasm.

[Nightwish]

I look forward to you ending rape in the world.
Whatever you say, Tom Cruise.

[SBK]

Once again you have to resort to extremist sarcasm.

Clearly the answer is that people rape because they were abused, they want the power, we've been told it's not about the sex. Knowing why people rape should make it easy to prevent rape from happening again right?

Will Obama apologizing to the world for our success make them hate us less?

I think you and are I really making the same point, there's a good way to protect yourself from these few wackos, we just disagree on what exactly you look for in them. ;)

[KILLER_CLOWN]

Attorney: Sealed Documents Indicate OKC Inside Job
FBI, defense team files identify government informants directing McVeigh

Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones
Prison Planet
Friday, February 23, 2007

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/230207insidejob.htm
UPDATED 1:10PM CST WITH PDF DECLARATIONS OF TERRY NICHOLS AND DAVID PAUL HAMMER

Declaration of Terry Lynn Nichols

Declaration of David Paul Hammer

Motion for an order allowing the videotaped depositions of David Paul Hammer and Terry Lynn Nichols

The attached exhibits to the declarations mainly consist of FBI source materials and have been placed under seal by the court and are not part of the public record.

-----------------------------------------------------

The attorney who was able to obtain a declaration from Terry Nichols fingering an FBI agent as directing Timothy McVeigh says that the documents attached to the affidavit indicate that the Oklahoma City bombing was an inside job.

"I didn't start out to solve the Oklahoma City bombing, I started out to find out who killed my brother and why," Jesse Trentadue told the Alex Jones Show.

In January 1996, Trentadue received an anonymous phone call telling him that his brother Kenneth had been murdered by the FBI in a case of mistaken identity because his brother had fit the profile of a member of a group called the Midwest Bank Robbery Gang that had been robbing banks to fund an attack on the federal government.

"Of course I dismissed it, I thought it was far fetched, unbelievable," said Trentadue, who said he ignored it until months later when he read a story in the L.A. Times about a man named Richard Lee Guthrie, also a member of the robbery gang, who was found hanging in his cell while in federal custody a day before he was due to give a confessional interview about the Oklahoma City bombing.

"Shortly before he was executed I received a message from Timothy McVeigh who told me that when he saw my brother's photograph and heard what happened to him, he knew the FBI had killed my brother because they mistook him from Richard Lee Guthrie."

Trentadue said he believes Guthrie was John Doe 2, McVeigh's accomplice in carrying out the attack on the Alfred P. Murrah building and an individual seen by multiple eyewitnesses yet omitted from the official story by the authorities. Guthrie and Kenneth Trentadue's physical description and movements were exactly the same, right down to the dragon tattoo on each's left forearm.


Jesse Trentadue stands in front of a portrait of his brother Kenneth who Trentadue claims was murdered by the FBI because he was mistaken with OKC bombing conspirator Richard Lee Guthrie.

Kenneth Trentadue's autopsy photos clearly betray a violent beating and torture as the cause of his death. The official explanation of suicide is completely inconsistent with the physical evidence.

"I didn't start out to solve the bombing, I started out to find the men who killed my brother," said Trentadue, "but every trail has taken me back to the bombing."

This is what led Trentadue to file a lawsuit in Utah ordering the FBI to release all documents relating to a failed sting operation they were running at a white supremacist paramilitary training camp in Elohim City, eastern Oklahoma, and its connection to the bombing on April 19 1995.


In being given unprecedented access to speak to McVeigh's accused co-conspirator Terry Nichols, Trentadue was able to discover that, according to Nichols, Attorney General's Ashcroft's office gagged Nichols from speaking to the media after it became apparent that McVeigh's accomplices and government ties to the bombing were in danger of leaking.

"Apparently before he had contacted me several years ago he had written to Attorney General Ashcroft, volunteering to tell everything about the bombing and the others involved," said Trentadue.

"Not only did no one from Attorney General Ashcroft's office follow up with Nichols, they actually apparently issued an order barring him from all contact with the media - it was thereafter that he reached out to me and I was able to get in to see him to spend a day and half with him."

During the process of his lawsuit, Trentadue was able to receive documents with names blacked out that show the FBI's OKC bombing informants were conducting armed robberies with Timothy McVeigh in order to fund the construction of the fertilizer bomb used in the attack on the federal building.

"One of the foreign informants was actually the explosives instructor who taught him how to make the bomb," said Trentadue, confirming that Nichols told him the criminal activities were part of a process of creating a ledger or a storyboard to which the government's version of events could later be pinned to.

The documents also show that McVeigh called Elohim City two days before the bombing asking for help. Four months before the bombing, an FBI informant told his superiors of the attack plan and said that the Alfred P. Murrah building had been scouted.

Trentadue said that Nichols is desperate to tell his story, but cannot yet go into full detail because of the court order that sealed the affidavit. He stated that he is surprised Nichols is still alive considering the amount of suspicious deaths that have occurred as a result of the cover-up. Trentadue's own insurance policy was that he immediately went public with any information he uncovered.


Terry Nichols

Trentadue said that the only way Nichols' story will ever get out is if a videotaped deposition is allowed.

"You cannot tell that whole story in a declaration," said Trentadue, adding that the more important information was contained in documents attached to the affidavit, most of which were from the FBI and Tim McVeigh's defense team.

When asked if the documents detail the fact that the Oklahoma City bombing was an inside job, Trentadue responded, "I read them that way, I read them that there's others involved."

"My feeling is that the FBI fumbled the ball so badly at Waco and Ruby Ridge that I do remember this - they were under constant pressure and criticism from Congress and from the media and from the public."

"I think they put together this harebrained idea at Elohim City to lure in all these militia groups under the pretense of teaching them how to rob banks in armored cars and attack the federal government and I think they planned to catch them in the act," said Trentadue.

"The accusations that I have made against the FBI are that they set up this operation, that they had informants who robbed banks with McVeigh to fund the attacks, that they had an informant who was the explosives instructor who taught them how to make the bomb and it got away from them - they have not once denied those accusations, they have just begged this federal judge not to order the release of the documents," the attorney concluded.

[MOhillbilly]

THE TURNER DIARIES

[penchief]

Well, you are truly a master of ironic humor.

Well, it sounds like what you are spouting is just a product of the recent Goldberg "revelation" and the right wing echo chamber instead of actually using history as a gage. While neither left nor right has a monopoly on totalitarian regimes, fascism has historically been a product of right wing ideology.

There is no irony in what either one of us is saying. Only a fundamental lack of understanding on your part that has been replaced by modern day political propaganda.

[MOhillbilly]

While neither left nor right has a monopoly on totalitarian regimes, fascism has historically been a product of right wing ideology.



fool.

[penchief]

fool.

I think not. Crack a history book, bro. That is if you can find one that has not been rewritten by the corporatocracy. Maybe you should just try doing a little historical reading on your own.

[MOhillbilly]

The Reds werent fascists?

make me laugh. you fuckers chase your tales all day about this shit.

[penchief]

The Reds werent fascists?

make me laugh. you ****ers chase your tales all day about this shit.

I said that totalitarian or authoritarian regimes have emerged from both the left and the right but that Fascism has historically been a right wing phenomenon. Just do some research.

[Radar Chief]

The Reds werent fascists?

make me laugh. you ****ers chase your tales all day about this shit.

:LOL: Perfect. :thumb:

[BucEyedPea]

I said that totalitarian or authoritarian regimes have emerged from both the left and the right but that Fascism has historically been a right wing phenomenon. Just do some research.

Fascism is on the left. Anarchy and small govts are on the right with anarch all the way to the right. All big govts are on the left until they culminate in total govt. Small govt is on the right until it reaches anarchy.

You're using an outdated spectrum that comes from the French Revolution where the aristocrats sat on the right and the peasants sat on the left. It has no position on it for anarchy or small govt.

[KILLER_CLOWN]

While they both have their nuances they equate to the same thing, loss of freedom and gun to the head enforcement.

[penchief]

Fascism is on the left. Anarchy and small govts are on the right. All big govts are on the left until they culminate in total govt.

You're using an outdated spectrum that comes from the French Revolution where the aristocrats sat on the right and the peasants sat on the left. It has no position on it for anarchy or small govt.

You are wrong. Of course my scale is outdated because people who want to rewrite history are making up their own scales. The size of government has nothing to do with left or right. Righties can be just as big spenders and just as intrusive.

Stop with this nonsense. It has more to do with political ideology than anything else. And the traditional differences between right and left have been established and really have not changed. They are apparent on this board.

When it comes to civil liberties libertarians are more in synch with the left than they are with the hardliners on the right.

[BucEyedPea]

You are wrong.

No you are wrong and remain willfully ignorant due to your denial.
There is no re-writing history here. My scale simply illustrates the arguments our founders made so they could determine how much govt was too much and how much was too little.

[SHTSPRAYER]

His target was the FBI agent who ordered the Ruby Ridge sniper killing.

[Brock]

Did Timothy McVeigh carry out the bombing?

[SHTSPRAYER]

His partner Nichols spent alot of time in an Islamic extremism hotbed in the Phillipines, but the MSM never wanted to talk about that for some reason.

[MOhillbilly]

anyone here read the turner diaries?

[Radar Chief]

Did Timothy McVeigh carry out the bombing?

Yes.
He is the one that parked the Rider truck in front of the Fed building.
IIRC during his trial it was revealed that he stuck around to watch and was highly surprised at the size of the explosion. It was much larger than he had expected.

[Radar Chief]

anyone here read the turner diaries?

No, worth the time I take it?

[Brock]

Yes.
He is the one that parked the Rider truck in front of the Fed building.
IIRC during his trial it was revealed that he stuck around to watch and was highly surprised at the size of the explosion. It was much larger than he had expected.

Who was with him when he did it?

[Radar Chief]

Who was with him when he did it?

I don’t know that there was anyone with him.
Now, building the bomb itself and setting everything up I’m sure he had help with, but as far as planting it I think he acted alone.

[penchief]

No you are wrong and remain willfully ignorant due to your denial.
There is no re-writing history here. My scale simply illustrates the arguments our founders made so they could determine how much govt was too much and how much was too little.

No, you are. You can't change the definition or create a new "scale" just because it suits your politics.

[MOhillbilly]

No, worth the time I take it?

Its almost a blue print for the OKC bombing. McVeigh sold the book and it was one of his favorites. its about a conspiracy to bring down the system and start a racewar in america. Although McVeigh claimed he was not a racist i think thats bullshit.
if you read it you will be able to wrap your mind around where McVeigh was comin from IMO.

[Brock]

I don’t know that there was anyone with him.
Now, building the bomb itself and setting everything up I’m sure he had help with, but as far as planting it I think he acted alone.

Well, witnesses said someone was with him.

[Radar Chief]

Its almost a blue print for the OKC bombing. McVeigh sold the book and it was one of his favorites. its about a conspiracy to bring down the system and start a racewar in america. Although McVeigh claimed he was not a racist i think thats bullshit.
if you read it you will be able to wrap your mind around where McVeigh was comin from IMO.

Thanks, I'll look into that.

Well, witnesses said someone was with him.

Oh, well you’ve got me then. Terry Nichols? Though I thought he had an alibi for that morning.

Edit: Wiki article just to refresh my memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

Government account indicates McVeigh acted alone. I’d be interested in whatever you have on a second person in the truck with him.

[Amnorix]

No you are wrong and remain willfully ignorant due to your denial.
There is no re-writing history here. My scale simply illustrates the arguments our founders made so they could determine how much govt was too much and how much was too little.

The Fascism of the Nazis incorporated both right and left wing elements, which is why these battles are a waste of time. The ultra-nationalistic, militaristic, racist elements, are ultra-right-wing, while the pervasive controls over the economy and efforts to appeal to the working class are more of an ultra-left-wing model.

And while Communism may well be ultra-left-wing in theory, as it was ACTUALLY PRACTICED by the Soviet Union, it also incorporated both ultra-right and ultra-left wing components.

In general, however, I'd put the Nazis brand of fascism on the right, and the Soviet Union's Communism on the left.

In reality, none of this much matters. Its' rather a pointless exercise. Nazism and Soviet Communism mostly just stand for the proposition that too much of anything is a bad thing. Just by way of example, nationalism CAN be good, but take it too far and you end up with racial-purity whackos.

[MOhillbilly]

2 sides of the same coin.

[Jenson71]

But their name is SOCIALIST party!! SOCIALIST. OBAMA = SOCIALIST. HITLER = SOCIALIST. OBAMA = HITLER. Game. Set. Match.

[Amnorix]

No, you are. You can't change the definition or create a new "scale" just because it suits your politics.

FWIW, see my prior quote, I think you're both wrong.

Classic history is to put Nazism as far right wing extremists. And while that is certainly correct to a degree, they also incorporated elaborate and extensive controls over the economy -- to the point where they came only a half-step short of full blown communism. They let the corporate leaders that they LIKED stay in place, but squeezed out those they didn't (often Jews) and made sure that friends of the Nazis controlled the military contractors.

IMHO it's a pointless debate. Best to write them off as lunatic f**kheads with a set of policies that shouldn't be pinned on either the right or the left, while standing as an example of what happens when anything is taken too far.

[penchief]

FWIW, see my prior quote, I think you're both wrong.

Classic history is to put Nazism as far right wing extremists. And while that is certainly correct to a degree, they also incorporated elaborate and extensive controls over the economy -- to the point where they came only a half-step short of full blown communism. They let the corporate leaders that they LIKED stay in place, but squeezed out those they didn't (often Jews) and made sure that friends of the Nazis controlled the military contractors.

IMHO it's a pointless debate. Best to write them off as lunatic f**kheads with a set of policies that shouldn't be pinned on either the right or the left, while standing as an example of what happens when anything is taken too far.

I don't necessarily disagree with your points. I've just had it up to my neck with all of this rewriting of history that has been going on for the past couple of years. I've already pointed out that totalitarian/authoritarian regimes are the product of both the right and left. It's just that this new effort by righties to recast Hitler-style fascism as a product of the left has got to be addressed.

[WilliamTheIrish]

As I recall, there were several witnesses who claimed he did not act alone. That indeed there was 'another person' in the truck. Never found, never identified.

[WilliamTheIrish]

And he carried out the bombing because he was a sick fuck.

[Sully]

Nazism and Soviet Communism mostly just stand for the proposition that too much of anything is a bad thing.

....and this statement could possibly be the thread ender on every topic in DC.

[KILLER_CLOWN]

Former FBI Director Calls For New OKC Bombing Investigation
Coulson names Strassmeir as "agent" in upcoming documentary

Prison Planet | March 2, 2007
Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones

Former FBI Terrorist Task Force director Danny Coulson has called for a new grand jury investigation into the Oklahoma City bombing and for the first time names Andreas Strassmeir as an "agent," in a documentary set to air Sunday, according to lawyer Jesse Trentadue.

Trentadue, attorney for bombing conspirator Terry Nichols, last week obtained an astounding declaration from Nichols in which he fingered FBI agent Larry Potts as having directed McVeigh in carrying out the attack.

In addition, Nichols' description of the bomb he helped McVeigh build does not match with official accounts of the device used in the attack, lending further credence to evidence that strongly suggests only bombs planted within the Alfred P. Murrah building, which were initially reported by TV news stations , could have caused the damage inflicted.

Trentadue was interviewed for a BBC documentary on the Oklahoma City bombing which will air this Sunday in the UK. The program has a different producer to the 9/11 hit piece show which was part of the same series and is expected to present hard hitting evidence of a cover-up.

After the Alex Jones Show broke the story yesterday, the BBC itself released a detailed article on their website focusing on Coulson's revelations.

The FBI man in charge of collecting evidence from the government building destroyed by the Oklahoma bomb has called for the case to be reopened.
Former deputy assistant director Danny Coulson has told the BBC programme The Conspiracy Files that he questions whether everyone involved was caught.

Mr Coulson said a federal grand jury is now needed to find out what really happened: "We have victims here and we have victims' families and we don't even know the answers. And the answer is frankly for a federal grand jury."


He argues this is the only way to prove whether other people were involved in the bombing in a wider conspiracy beyond Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, who was also convicted of manslaughter and conspiracy and sentenced to life in jail.
Talking to the Alex Jones Show, Jesse Trentadue stated that Coulson, then-director of the FBI's Terrorist Task Force and founding commander of the bureau's Hostage Rescue Team, "Spoke candidly and at length about the Oklahoma City bombing and the investigation."

Coulson (pictured left) has a very interesting connection to the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah building himself, leading many to allege that he was part of the conspiracy.

According to reports , Coulson checked into an Oklahoma City hotel the night before the April 19 1995 bombing, despite claims at the time that he was in Texas on the morning of the attack.

Receipts from the Embassy Suites Hotel show Coulson checked in nine hours before the bombing.

"Evidence of Coulson's clandestine trip fits squarely with a substantial body of details found in hundreds of pages of other official documents obtained [via Freedom of Information Act requests] revealing weeks of planning by an elite corps of drug and counterterrorism experts who were closely monitoring members of various far-right groups they considered religious extremists and threats to the safety and security of the nation," reported the McCurtain Daily Gazette.

Despite these suspicions, according to Trentadue, Coulson goes on record this weekend to testify that McVeigh had high-level help from as yet unpunished individuals.

"He was ordered out of the Justice Department not to pursue the Elohim City involvement in the bombing....it's my understanding that he says its his belief that Strassmeir was an agent working for a foreign government," said the Attorney.

Andreas Strassmeir, a former German military intelligence officer, was a ringleader at the Elohim City white supremacist compound where he trained willing recruits in guerilla warfare and terrorism. He is accused by many of being one of the several government provocateurs that were steering McVeigh and helping him obtain the materials and skills to carry out the bombing.

"I was told Mr .Coulson goes on camera and said he believes that a grand jury should be reconvened to investigate the Elohim City connection to the Oklahoma City bombing," said Trentadue.

Asked what the impact would be if a new investigation was allowed to go forward Trentadue responded, "It would destroy Hillary Clinton's campaign, it would result in the loss of careers of some high level people within various law enforcement agencies and the federal government, and it would probably result in a good number of them being prosecuted and sent to jail."

http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/okc_bombing_former_fbi_director_calls_for_new_investigation.htm

[Amnorix]

I don't necessarily disagree with your points. I've just had it up to my neck with all of this rewriting of history that has been going on for the past couple of years. I've already pointed out that totalitarian/authoritarian regimes are the product of both the right and left. It's just that this new effort by righties to recast Hitler-style fascism as a product of the left has got to be addressed.

To say Nazism is "leftist" is definitely wrong. Huge elements of the critical planks that propelled them to power were definitely not "liberal" in any way, shape or form.

[Amnorix]

I love it. The US government helped bring down the twin towers, AND the Murrah building.

They must have helped whack Lincoln and Kennedy too. And I really think the US Navy was involved in helping the hijackers take that ship off the Somalian Coast last week.

[KILLER_CLOWN]

I love it. The US government helped bring down the twin towers, AND the Murrah building.

They must have helped whack Lincoln and Kennedy too. And I really think the US Navy was involved in helping the hijackers take that ship off the Somalian Coast last week.

Ya i guess the former FBI director is some kind of tin foil hat wearing nut.

[Brock]

I love it. The US government helped bring down the twin towers, AND the Murrah building.

They must have helped whack Lincoln and Kennedy too. And I really think the US Navy was involved in helping the hijackers take that ship off the Somalian Coast last week.

No, it was just a lone nut, in spite of eyewitness accounts. And Boeing is to blame for TWA 800 too, never mind those hundreds of witnesses.

Just because you're not being lied to all the time doesn't mean you aren't being lied to.

[Dave Lane]

are you surprised that the administration would try to cast any detractors as mentally imbalanced and dangerous?

I think he said the teabaggers did it...

[SBK]

I think he said the teabaggers did it...

Anderson Cooper?