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View Full Version : Chiefs Can someone tell me why the Chiefs are forcing the 3-4 defense


Goldmember
04-26-2009, 04:13 AM
when they have 4-3 personnel? It seems to go against what they stated in trying to match the personnel to the right system rather than the system to the personnel.

MoreLemonPledge
04-26-2009, 04:16 AM
Well, our personnel didn't work in that system last year. Maybe it was coaching, maybe not, but something has to be done differently.

Besides, Pioli comes from a 3-4 background.

Mecca
04-26-2009, 04:16 AM
All new regimes put in the schemes/systems they like, it was inevitable.

Every team Scott Pioli has been with has been a 3-4 team.

It's not like we have good personnel anyway we ranked 30th in defense.

kysirsoze
04-26-2009, 04:19 AM
We didn't really have 4-3 personnel...

we had 2-14 personnel.

HOUSE CLEANIN TIME!

Mecca
04-26-2009, 04:20 AM
The only player it screws with is Dorsey....I don't think anyone is to concerned that Tamba Hali won't convert well seeing as he sucks anyway.

Crush
04-26-2009, 04:20 AM
This entire team needed a cleansing.

MoreLemonPledge
04-26-2009, 04:23 AM
This entire team needed a cleansing.

http://girlofwords.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/summerseve1.jpg

Goldmember
04-26-2009, 04:23 AM
true but the 3-4 seems to be latest fad these days and a good NT is hard to find. Staying with the 4-3 when the majority of other teams are going with 3-4 would seem to make it easier to find more players rather than competing with all the other 3-4 teams for those type of players. The Chiefs always seem to be behind the curve on NFL trends. i.e. the cover two

Mecca
04-26-2009, 04:24 AM
true but the 3-4 seems to be latest fad these days and a good NT is hard to find. Staying with the 4-3 when the majority of other teams are going with 3-4 would seem to make it easier to find more players rather than competing with all the other 3-4 teams for those type of players. The Chiefs always seem to be behind the curve on NFL trends. i.e. the cover two

It's about 50/50 on 4-3 3-4 now...and no one runs cover 2 anymore.

If you believe in Pioli then he should be able to get the players he's been working for that system his whole career. That's probably better than asking him to get players for a scheme he isn't familiar with.

Goldmember
04-26-2009, 04:29 AM
It's about 50/50 on 4-3 3-4 now...and no one runs cover 2 anymore.

If you believe in Pioli then he should be able to get the players he's been working for that system his whole career. That's probably better than asking him to get players for a scheme he isn't familiar with.

Excuse me, I meant Tampa Two....but yeah I get what you mean

chiefzilla1501
04-26-2009, 04:50 AM
true but the 3-4 seems to be latest fad these days and a good NT is hard to find. Staying with the 4-3 when the majority of other teams are going with 3-4 would seem to make it easier to find more players rather than competing with all the other 3-4 teams for those type of players. The Chiefs always seem to be behind the curve on NFL trends. i.e. the cover two

I don't think it's the same thing. I still think there are lots of front offices that have no idea how to build a 3-4 defense. I don't think it's a "fad." I think it's a legitimately better NFL defense if you can build it right. I am a big fan of the defense. And while nose tackles can be hard to find, getting one nose tackle is easier than getting two defensive ends. That's the main reason you look to the 3-4.

htismaqe
04-26-2009, 06:58 AM
when they have 4-3 personnel? It seems to go against what they stated in trying to match the personnel to the right system rather than the system to the personnel.

Because the 4-3 personnel you reference SUCKS?

Danman
04-26-2009, 07:52 AM
It seems easier to plug in role players specifically at LB than it is in a 4-3. Look at Pittsburg. They've had long term success plugging in different pieces. They let people go through free agency all the time and just plug in someone else.

KC Jones
04-26-2009, 07:57 AM
because they want to win games again?

TheGuardian
04-26-2009, 08:00 AM
I thought this quote from Pioli yesterday was interesting...........

"How quickly he makes an impact is to be seen,'' Pioli said. "The history of the (first-round) defensive linemen I've been with, whether that's Vince Wilfork, Ty Warren or Richard Seymour, people see what those players become their second and third years. They forget what they were as rookies. Richard Seymour as a rookie struggled tremendously as did Ty Warren as did Vince Wilfork. All three of those players as rookies were not good players.

Yet we've got bozos in here that have Dorsey labeled as a bust after 10 games and people that say he can't play in a 30 front.

Iowanian
04-26-2009, 08:03 AM
When the existing personell have been terrible, they produce 10 sacks, and the team is lacking in DEs AND linebackers, I think its perfectly fine to look at alternatives.

The Chiefs will be playing a 30 defense, but its not going to be the traditional 3-4.


The Chiefs won 2 games last season.....I don't care if they try to Monster-back defense my Jr High Football team ran.

DTLB58
04-26-2009, 08:04 AM
Because the 4-3 personnel you reference SUCKS?

LMAO

Never thought of it like this, But I like it.

Can't think of a better reason :clap:

htismaqe
04-26-2009, 08:04 AM
I thought this quote from Pioli yesterday was interesting...........

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Yet we've got bozos in here that have Dorsey labeled as a bust after 10 games and people that say he can't play in a 30 front.

Where do you see Dorsey playing?

For all of the fan and media talk about him moving to DE, I think they try him at NT.

DTLB58
04-26-2009, 08:05 AM
When the existing personell have been terrible, they produce 10 sacks, and the team is lacking in DEs AND linebackers, I think its perfectly fine to look at alternatives.

The Chiefs will be playing a 30 defense, but its not going to be the traditional 3-4.

The Chiefs won 2 games last season.....I don't care if they try to Monster-back defense my Jr High Football team ran.

Someone want to explain the "30" defense?

Iowanian
04-26-2009, 08:06 AM
Another poster did an excellent job explaining the alignments of the 30 under/over fronts. I'll see if I can find it, because its better than I can do.

DTLB58
04-26-2009, 08:08 AM
We didn't really have 4-3 personnel...

we had 2-14 personnel.

HOUSE CLEANIN TIME!

Nice. :D

TheGuardian
04-26-2009, 08:10 AM
Someone want to explain the "30" defense?

A 30 front can be a 3-4. Or it can be a 3-5 or a 3-3. You think a 3-4 is the only 30 front in all of football????

Iowanian
04-26-2009, 08:13 AM
http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/43_under_blitz_schemes.html

this was linked before.

it explains the alignments, gap responsibilities and blitz concepts of this scheme.

Iowanian
04-26-2009, 08:14 AM
The 4-3 under defense has evolved over the years and adjusted over time. There are some different ways to do things from it. The presentation that I am going to give today is the “one-gap” approach. In principle we want to give our players a chance to know exactly what they have to defend. We also want to give them an attitude in which to do that. We want to be an attacking, aggressive football team. We don’t want to sit and read the play like you often have to with “two-gap” principles of play. We want to attack into the gap at the snap, get off the ball to play on their side of the field and get after the quarterback.

The big problem with any “one-gap” approach however is that it allows a ball carrier to get into the secondary if one guy makes a mistake. No matter how aggressive the defense is there is a great amount of discipline that goes with this defense. You have to be very strict about your positioning and the placement of your players. You have to have the ability to maintain relative spacing between your players.

When we talk about this front all gaps are lettered to give us a reference point. We letter the gaps on each side of the center as A, B, C, D, etc. We do this for the strong side and the weak side. For starters the Sam linebacker controls the D gap to his side of the field. He is in an inside-foot to outside-foot alignment on the tight end or what most coaches call a 9 technique spot. He can never get reach blocked by the tight end in this position. He is the force player for everything run to his side of the field and turns everything back inside to the pursuit.

The defensive end to the tight end side is responsible for controlling the C gap. He is an inside-foot to outside-foot alignment on the offensive tackle he is lining up against. If the tackle blocks inside then the defensive end has to close down with him in keep relative control of the C gap.

The nose tackle plays in the A gap to the tight end side of the field in our defense. We have done a number of things with this position based upon the opposition at times. We have put him right in the A gap, we have cocked him on the center at times, and as needed we have even played him in a direct shade technique right over the center at times. The way we play him on base defense is as an inside-foot to outside-foot alignment or a 1 technique on the center to the strong side of the alignment.

The prime spot on the defense to the weak side is the B gap player. He is an inside-foot to outside-foot alignment on the offensive guard to his side. He is a 3 technique player. He has B gap control but he can’t get reached or hooked by the defense due to the way we align him. The whole scheme of this defense is predicated upon not getting hooked.

The best pass rusher on the team is usually the defensive end to the open side of the field. That puts him on the quarterback’s blind side and makes him a C gap player in this defense. We often align him wider than this in order to give him a better angle of attack and allow him to play in space. We align him a yard outside of the offensive tackle most of the time. He has to play C gap run support but at the same time he is rushing the passer like it is third and ten. He has to be able to close down however if the tackle blocks down on him.

The front five players I mentioned are playing aggressive defense with their outside arms free. The only thing we can’t allow to happen is for them to get hooked or reached by the defender.

This alignment leaves open the strong side B Gap and the weak side A gap which are played by the Mike and Will linebackers. The Mike linebacker is in an inside-foot to out-side foot alignment on the offensive guard on his side of the field. The Will linebacker is aligned against the offensive guard to his side of the field. He is basically a protected player in this alignment and should make a lot of tackles. He has to control his weak-side A gap and play relative to the Mike linebacker and the Free Safety.

Iowanian
04-26-2009, 08:15 AM
The Free Safety is the force player to the open side or weak side of the ball. He works off the defensive end’s play. The Defensive End works for leverage and force. The Free Safety works off of the Defensive End and fills where he is needed on run plays for example. If we are playing Cover 3 behind him the Strong Safety is going to have the middle of the secondary behind him but also fills off the linebacker’s side as needed depending upon the play. If the Sam linebacker does get hooked for example the Strong Safety will then have to come up and make the play. The offense will obviously gain a chunk of yardage on the play, but that is because there was a breakdown at the point of attack in our scheme.

The two Safeties are both fill where needed sort of players. The have to keep everything on their inside shoulder. All the players in this defense have to keep the blocks in their inside shoulder and force the ball carrier back inside to the next player. Here is an example of our base alignment against a pro set backfield with wide receivers split to either side.


4-3 UNDER DEFENSE VERSUS PRO SET





If you look at this front it is basically an eight man front against the run as we’ll bring the Free Safety down hard in run situations. This is a stop the run first type of defense. We want to outnumber the offense to either side of the ball. We call this particular alignment of the front an “under” and the coverage “flex” in our language. The open side of the alignment is the flex side and the tight end side is the strong or solid side. Those are our terms for the tight end side and the split end side of the formation.

The defense is a man to man coverage scheme for the corners in this example. If we call a cover one flex, we are man to man on the corners with the strong safety moving into the middle of the field. The Free Safety or flex side safety is down on run support. The Sam Linebacker has the tight end in man to man in coverage. He has him anywhere he goes for this defensive call. He never switches if we are in this coverage and will go with him if the tight end does go in motion.

The Mike Linebacker plays the first back out of the back field to the strong side. The Free Safety plays the first back out of the back field to the weak side. The Will linebacker plays the short middle. The gives us a man in the hole in the short middle area of the field. If we get a full flow by the backs to the strong side the Mike linebacker takes the first back and the Will linebacker takes the second back out of the backfield. The Free Safety becomes the short middle player.

If it is a full flow weak side play the Free Safety has the first back and the Will linebacker has the second man to the weak side. The Mike linebacker becomes the short hole player. In theory the middle hole player helps with the tight end but in reality he is the second line of defense against any breakdown in the pass rush. They can help on the draw play, scramble by the quarterback, or screen passes that they can see developing.

If the offense comes out in a different look such as a Twins look to one side, the basic core of the defense stays the same. There are no adjustments to be made. The defenders take their men in coverage regardless of where they line up. The Mike linebacker has help in the middle from the short hole player. However, he can’t allow himself to get beat in the flat. The play action pass is a problem for this defense. That is an area on which you really have to focus on reads and execution. That is a critical aspect you have to practice.

Iowanian
04-26-2009, 08:15 AM
Before we go any further, let’s talk about personnel. You want to get your best players on the field. The open side Defensive End has to be one of your best football players. Size does not matter as much. We want an athletic player who can move around.

At Nose Tackle you have to find a player who likes to mix it up. We want a big guy in there who likes to get down and dirty. He is going to get doubled a lot on the run and pass and is going to get down blocked a lot. He has to be a tough player. This guy can be a short and stubby type of player.

The other defensive tackle the 3 technique player should be your premier interior pass rusher. He is going to get a lot of one on one blocks as it is hard to double team him because of where he lines up.

The defensive end to the tight end side needs to be a defensive player that can play the run. He does not have to be a big time pass rusher. He has to play the C gap and stop the run.

The Mike linebacker is a traditional middle linebacker. He is instinctive and makes a lot of calls for the defense. He may be the guy with the most experience or the best feel for the game.

The Will linebacker can be a smaller player. He is generally protected in the defensive schemes and will not see as many blocks. All you want him to do most plays is flow and chase the football. We want our fastest linebacker at this position.

The Sam linebacker has to be a good containment player. He has to be big and strong enough to play on the edge of the tight end. He has to be able to run in pass coverage also.

The defensive backs that are the best run defenders are our safeties. The Free Safety is another player who makes a lot of tackles for us. He has to have good instincts. He is what we call a natural player. You don’t have to coach this player too much. He has to have a feel for the everything and understand the big picture.

The corners have to run fast if you plan on playing bump and run. If they don’t run fast then you can still play with them. But if your corners are not faster than the wide receivers you are facing don’t play bump and run. Your asking them to do something they can not do and they’ll get beat deep. It is a race when you play bump and run and if you can’t win the race don’t play bump and run.

If you have a million reads for your secondary you are crazy. They don’t need that even at our level. All they need to know is their primary responsibility and then secondary. At the highest level in the NFL the pass game is as complex as you can imagine. However if a defender can play the post and the seam route then they can learn to play at that level. The thing that kills and breaks down a defense is a ball being thrown over the defender’s head for a touchdown.

Teach your younger players to play the deep middle and forget about all the confusing rules. The guy who is playing in the middle of the field has to figure out who can get into the middle. We want our safety to play in the middle of the two receivers that can run the post route. He wants to split the relationship with anyone who can get down the middle.

When we play pass defense with our corners we play as tight was we can for the match up. Against spread offenses we back them off more.

If we get a one back or an Ace set the safeties are going to take care of it. Everything else in the defense stays the same. The Mike and Will linebackers take the back out of the backfield. If he goes to the strong side the Mike linebacker takes him. If he goes to the weak side the Will linebacker takes him. The linebacker that is not involved in coverage drops into the short middle hole on pass coverage. The Free Safety adjusts down to take the second tight end.



If the offense spreads out a bit into a double set to one side we don’t make any adjustment except to match up better with the safeties. Everything else on the defense remains the same. Everyone is playing their gap control and support schemes. If the back goes in motion to leave an empty backfield set the linebacker to the side of the motion takes him. The remaining linebacker bumps over to the middle to balance the defense and plays football.



If the offense comes out in a triples set the adjustment is made by the safeties. In this case pictured the Strong Safety goes out to cover the third receiver to the strong side. The Free Safety moves to the middle third of the field and plays the middle third. Everyone else stays the same with the linebackers playing the remaining back the same way. Trips to the other side would flop the role of the safeties. Or if one is a better cover person that the other you can protect accordingly.

Iowanian
04-26-2009, 08:16 AM
For a base defense to hold up you have to have some things that you can use to complement it. When you play USC every single one of my players is going to have a blitz pattern. The offense will have to account for every player on our side of the ball in their pass protection scheme.

The next thing that I am going to show you are some of the most basic combinations of pass rushes that we use with the under defensive front. I want it to be multiple so that the defense doesn’t know who is coming and from where.

The first blitz that I am going to show you is what we simply refer to as “Sam and Mike”. We are going to use the strong side linebacker and middle linebackers to rush the passer. We slant our strong side defensive end, nose guard, and 3 technique to the open side of their formation away from their normal rush gaps. The weak side defensive end is going to drop into pass coverage on this play. The alignment is the same as before. The Corners are line up in tight coverage but are going to bail out and play a three deep zone coverage with the Free Safety. The Corners will play outside leverage on this blitz and force everything inside. The Free Safety is playing a deep middle. The weak side Defense End and Strong Safety are the outside defenders to each side. They are playing seam coverage with the Will linebacker in the middle seam. The Strong Safety and weak side Defensive End play what we call the hot receivers to their side. Once the quarterback sees the blitz he’ll often throw to these short areas to his designated hot receiver. If the tight end comes down the middle seam the Strong Safety collapses on him. The Defensive End does the same thing with the back out of the backfield.



The Will linebacker is playing the hot receiver to the middle of the field. That means he is finding the third receiver and covering him if he comes out on a hot route. When we overload on the rush the ball with be thrown quickly. We want good spacing in our coverage people so we can react by changing up, and make the play for a short gain.

The formation doesn’t matter much. We have to find the hot receivers on this blitz and identify them. Another advantage the defense has in these types of stunts is the change up of the line. The defensive line is now slanting away from where they have been playing the entire game. That changes the landmark for the offensive lineman and gives the defensive lineman an advantage in his pass rush. The defense has to have counter moves to the keep the offense off balance.

This stunt can also be used in run defense. To give us a change up we bring the Sam linebacker underneath the tight ends block. We can also let the Sam linebacker play under all the blocks and bounce plays to the outside. Those are changes we add to the base defense to keep the offense off balance.

Another way to get five man pressure on the quarterback is our Under Safety blitz. On this stunt we are bringing the Free Safety from the outside. The defensive line is slanting away from his blitz. The corners are playing their same bail coverage and the Strong Safety is going to the deep middle. The Sam and Will linebackers have the first two hot receivers and the Mike with have the hot third receiver.



A very effective stunt from this defense is called “Sam and Safety”. On this stunt we are blitzing with both the Sam and the Free Safety. The defense line slants to the Free Safety side. The open side Defensive End comes off in coverage and everything else is the same. The Mike linebacker and the drop end have the first two hot receivers and the Will linebacker has the third.



One of the problems we have when we drop the Defensive End in coverage is containment to his side. When we drop the end it means the 3 Technique tackle has to work hard to contain outside. That is not a good situation but we work hard to make it work.

We also like to bring the defensive backs in the blitz scheme. If they can disguise the stunt they can get there in a hurry. We like to bring the Corner on a blitz as a change up from time to time. The Corner aligns in a bump and run technique. On the snap of the ball however he comes hard off the corner. The Free Safety cheats back and covers the deep outside third. The Strong Safety is covering the middle third and the strong side corner in this case is taking the outside third to his side. The rush end and the 3 technique rush the A gap and the B gap. The corner comes off the edge.


The Sam, Mike, and Will linebackers play the hot zones on this play. You can mix up your blitzes according to your needs. This simplistic blitz scheme lets you bring pressure from a number of different areas. You can game plan the match ups the way you want with other combinations as well. The important thing in this blitz pattern is that we are not changing anything in our basic schemes underneath.

That is all the time I have. I hope I have given you something you can take home with you today. It is extremely important to have a philosophy that can guide you to the success you are looking for. Thank you. It has been a pleasure.

eazyb81
04-26-2009, 08:18 AM
Totally agree, I have no idea why Pioli would want to alter the defensive scheme and personnel, we've been so awesome on defense the last few years. What an idiot.

eazyb81
04-26-2009, 08:53 AM
Where do you see Dorsey playing?

For all of the fan and media talk about him moving to DE, I think they try him at NT.

I've seen you mention this a few times.

Do you really think Dorsey can 2-gap? I just don't think he has the size for it.

Or do you think Pioli will be willing to adjust his scheme to accomodate the talents of individual players we have on the roster?

Dorsey is a very talented player, no doubt, but the Pats ran a traditional 2-gap 3-4 scheme. I just don't see how Dorsey would fit in with that system.

htismaqe
04-26-2009, 08:56 AM
I've seen you mention this a few times.

Do you really think Dorsey can 2-gap? I just don't think he has the size for it.

Or do you think Pioli will be willing to adjust his scheme to accomodate the talents of individual players we have on the roster?

Dorsey is a very talented player, no doubt, but the Pats ran a traditional 2-gap 3-4 scheme. I just don't see how Dorsey would fit in with that system.

Playing the 2-gap is more about strength than bulk.

Hell, my favorite college team plays a 2-gap alot of the time and their best DT (1st-team all-conference and national award finalist) weight 265.

I honestly don't know what they're going to do. I just see Dorsey adding strength and playing the nose as more realistic than expecting him to grow 4 inches and add a foot to his wingspan to play DE.

Braincase
04-26-2009, 09:01 AM
The one thing that stands out from the discussions I've heard is that it's a personnel issue - the big guys you stack on the line are a lot harder to find than linebackers that are 6'2" 245# and run a 4.7-4.8. Apparently those guys are easier to find than the 6'4" 300# DT/DE that runs a 4.9.

eazyb81
04-26-2009, 09:08 AM
Playing the 2-gap is more about strength than bulk.

Hell, my favorite college team plays a 2-gap alot of the time and their best DT (1st-team all-conference and national award finalist) weight 265.

I honestly don't know what they're going to do. I just see Dorsey adding strength and playing the nose as more realistic than expecting him to grow 4 inches and add a foot to his wingspan to play DE.

I guess my point is that it is going to take a lot of imagination by Pioli and Pendergast to make the 3-4 work. They might have to go to more of a 1-gap scheme like Wade Phillips uses, but I'm not sure if Pioli is willing to change that much.

chiefzilla1501
04-26-2009, 10:42 AM
I've seen you mention this a few times.

Do you really think Dorsey can 2-gap? I just don't think he has the size for it.

Or do you think Pioli will be willing to adjust his scheme to accomodate the talents of individual players we have on the roster?

Dorsey is a very talented player, no doubt, but the Pats ran a traditional 2-gap 3-4 scheme. I just don't see how Dorsey would fit in with that system.

I don't know, man. I think they'll still try to deal him. Teams are a lot more willing to get rid of good picks after the draft is over. Can he play 2-gap? Yes, he can. He did so at LSU. But it's not a type of game that plays to his strengths, in my opinion.

Goldmember
04-26-2009, 10:57 AM
Totally agree, I have no idea why Pioli would want to alter the defensive scheme and personnel, we've been so awesome on defense the last few years. What an idiot.

Let me put it this way. A lot of people seem to think the bad defense was the coaching and not the players. Maybe with better coaching and upgrades at certain positions it could be a lot better, but I suppose that is what Pioli knows and is comfortable with.

DaWolf
04-26-2009, 11:12 AM
Obviously they evaluated the personnel and realized the personnel sucked.

Really, what is the benefit of sticking with a system that has spectacularly failed over the last decade because of existing personnel? It wasn't working and you were already going to have to make wholesale changes...

htismaqe
04-26-2009, 12:55 PM
I guess my point is that it is going to take a lot of imagination by Pioli and Pendergast to make the 3-4 work. They might have to go to more of a 1-gap scheme like Wade Phillips uses, but I'm not sure if Pioli is willing to change that much.

TheGuardian seems to think we'll be running a hybrid 30 front with some guys playing 1-gap and some playing 2. It seems complicated, but it certainly has spots for ALL of our personnel.

And I could see Dorsey being a good NT before I could ever see him being a good 5T.

whoman69
04-26-2009, 01:02 PM
I feel a hell of a lot more comfortable with our personnel for the scheme right now than I did at any time last year.

htismaqe
04-26-2009, 01:16 PM
I feel a hell of a lot more comfortable with our personnel for the scheme right now than I did at any time last year.

Yep.

And while the coaching staff isn't ideal, Gunther Cunningham might be my least favorite coach in the history of the Chiefs.