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jAZ
04-26-2009, 10:17 AM
The NFL Network just did a short segment on the history of the 83 draft and the outcomes of the first round QBs.

It had never occured to me until now, but why didn't our front office trade Blackledge+ for John Elway? Seems like we had the ammunition to make the trade, with the 2nd overall QB drafted only a few spots later.

And in theory, we could have offered even more than Denver, because the move would also prvent an AFC West rival from getting one of the "elite QBs" in the draft.

I ask why we didn't, but maybe we did, and failed.

Anyone know the thinking from the time?

Dartgod
04-26-2009, 10:33 AM
Because Carl Peterson was and idiot.

Ultra Peanut
04-26-2009, 10:34 AM
Because Blackledge was the right choice.

Coogs
04-26-2009, 10:35 AM
Anyone know the thinking from the time?

Elway made it clear at that time that he wanted to play on the West Coast. Obviously, KC is not near the West Coast. ;)

Dr. Facebook Fever
04-26-2009, 10:36 AM
Because you don't get hindsite until later

Coogs
04-26-2009, 10:36 AM
Because Carl Peterson was and idiot.

Well, yeah, there is that too! :D

ChiefsRoyalsMizzou
04-26-2009, 10:38 AM
because the Chiefs didn't want to win back to back superbowls 15 years later

Coogs
04-26-2009, 10:41 AM
BTW, I was serious about the West Coast thing. He also had a baseball contract with someone, and was going to play baseball if he didn't get traded to the West Coast.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 10:42 AM
It's a good question, because that idiot was clearly the #1 rated guy. I wonder if the Chiefs thought Blackledge was a better value, or if maybe the idiot had already refused to go to Kansas City. Our team wasn't exactly strong, and he didn't want to go to a team that was weak or rebuilding.

I blame Carl more for not trading down and picking up Marino at the end of the round.

KCinNY
04-26-2009, 10:43 AM
BTW, I was serious about the West Coast thing. He also had a baseball contract with someone, and was going to play baseball if he didn't get traded to the West Coast.

Littleton and Arvada do have some spectacular ocean views.

Coogs
04-26-2009, 10:44 AM
Littleton and Arvada do have some spectacular ocean views.

Yes they do, don't they!?

mlyonsd
04-26-2009, 10:46 AM
Err, Carl didn't become our GM until 1989.

Elway was going to be picked by someone else, I think the Colts and he said he wouldn't go there, he'd play BB instead.

Blackledge was considered an elite QB back then. We also passed up on Jim Kelly and Dan Marino that year too.

Mackovich was the coach.

Coogs
04-26-2009, 10:48 AM
Err, Carl didn't become our GM until 1989.


nOObs! What are you going to do! :shrug:

Goldmember
04-26-2009, 10:55 AM
[QUOTE=mlyonsd;5713090]Err, Carl didn't become our GM until 1989.

LMAO

Poor CP, he even gets blamed for things that happened before he became the Chiefs GM. And he'll continue to get blamed for things that happen 50 years from now.

Goldmember
04-26-2009, 10:57 AM
Elway made it clear at that time that he wanted to play on the West Coast. Obviously, KC is not near the West Coast. ;)

Was Denver once on the West Coast?

jAZ
04-26-2009, 10:57 AM
BTW, I was serious about the West Coast thing. He also had a baseball contract with someone, and was going to play baseball if he didn't get traded to the West Coast.

Yeah, the California Yankees. :rolleyes:

(not at you, I'm sure you are right... but at the notion that he wouldn't be willing to play outside the westcoast of Denver.)

Short Leash Hootie
04-26-2009, 10:58 AM
I find it funny when people don't get the Carl Peterson jokes.

jAZ
04-26-2009, 10:59 AM
Err, Carl didn't become our GM until 1989.

I assumed everyone was joking about blaming Carl. Maybe not. :D

mlyonsd
04-26-2009, 11:04 AM
I find it funny when people don't get the Carl Peterson jokes.

I lived through the 80's and Carl Peterson and don't find any of it funny.

(ok, i've been had. certainly not the first or last time)

Goldmember
04-26-2009, 11:14 AM
I find it funny when people don't get the Carl Peterson jokes.

Wouldn't surprise me to find people on this board that think CP was the GM during the 70s also.

Coogs
04-26-2009, 11:20 AM
Was Denver once on the West Coast?

:shrug:

I don't know. I just know he said he was going to play baseball if he wasn't traded to the West Coast by the Colts. Geography was a much discussed topic at the time. And there wasn't much in the way of an internet in 1983 either.

IIRC, it was the Yankees who he had the baseball contract with, but I am not 100% sure on that.

whoman69
04-26-2009, 11:44 AM
Most of the problem was much like when San Diego drafted Manning. They were the laughing stock of the league. Elway didn't want to go somewhere he knew they would fail. I don't think the Chiefs seriously considered going up the draft to pick Elway with Blackledge in their sights. I don't fault them for getting Elway. I fault them for getting Blackledge with Kelly and Marino still on the boards. Buffalo took a big chance with Kelly because the USFL offered a heck of a lot more.

orange
04-26-2009, 11:55 AM
:shrug:

I don't know. I just know he said he was going to play baseball if he wasn't traded to the West Coast by the Colts. Geography was a much discussed topic at the time. And there wasn't much in the way of an internet in 1983 either.

IIRC, it was the Yankees who he had the baseball contract with, but I am not 100% sure on that.


Yes, it was the Yankees. But no, it wasn't about the West Coast. Elway didn't want to play for Robert Irsay and Frank Cush.

The Chiefs never tried to deal for Elway because they had their QB. They didn't draft Blackledge expecting him to fail.

Pioli Zombie
04-26-2009, 01:00 PM
That Elway was almost as good as Mark Sanchez
Posted via Mobile Device

Coogs
04-26-2009, 01:19 PM
Yes, it was the Yankees. But no, it wasn't about the West Coast. Elway didn't want to play for Robert Irsay and Frank Cush.


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,925961,00.html

Two-Way Elway Gets His Way
By HP-Time.com;Tom Callahan Monday, May. 16, 1983

Quarterback John Elway of Stanford, the first item up for bid at the National Football League's annual college mart, declined to show his teeth to the Baltimore Colts, who did not win a game last season and therefore had the right to any sirloin in the shop. Herschel Walker, a fullback formerly of Georgia and currently of New Jersey, once spoke of challenging this entitlement in court but never got around to it. Elway, 22, a golden Californiabred whose pedigree is by Johnny Unitas out of Mickey Mantle, had another option: he could play baseball.

How well Elway could play was a question, but how well he would be paid was not. The baseball "rights" to Elway belonged to the New York Yankees, who belong to George Steinbrenner, a free spender capable of buying a pennant and everything else on the shelf. And he seems loath to pay less than $1 million for anything. In six weeks of minor league baseball last summer, Class A ball in Oneonta, N.Y., Outfielder Elway batted .318. However, since Class A pitchers seldom throw a curve on purpose, there was naturally some uncertainty about whether Elway could ever be a major league baseball player, much less a star. Regarding his football skills, there is less doubt.

Elway stands 6 ft. 4 in. tall and does not stand still. Even at a perfectly sculpted 202 Ibs., say the scouts, he has the footwork of a middleweight boxer. Besides Elway's passing ability, they admire his "escapability," a word with a hint of a shiver in it, evoking images of 280-lb. linemen and broken bones. Still, given his choice, Elway asserted he would never elect baseball as a safer course. In his heart, he was a football player who played baseball on the side, not the other way around.

He was not given his choice, at least not right away. Despite Elway's expressed desire to play on the West Coast, Baltimore stubbornly did not trade the pick to San Diego, Seattle or the Los Angeles Raiders. "I don't want to be a jerk or anything," Elway told Colts Coach Frank Kush, "but we [meaning Elway, his agent Marvin Demoff and his father Jack, the head football coach at San Jose State] have been telling you for three months I'm not going to play in Baltimore." Elway then called a press conference to declare, ''Right now, it looks like I'll be playing baseball with the Yankees. [The Colts] knew I held a straight flush and still they called me on it."

Gambling was an embarrassing analogy to Kush, whose No. 1 draft choice of 1982, Ohio State Quarterback Art Schlichter, ran up a reported six-figure tab with bookies and recently turned to the FBI for protection. Going 0-8-1 on the field last year in his first N.F.L. season, Kush is 0-9 this year in the Supreme Court, which decided that he would have to defend himself against charges stemming from a sideline assault case brought by a former punter at Arizona State. That incident four seasons ago ended Rush's prosperous 22-year college coaching career. Probably Elway did not crave Kush's style of discipline.

Even if the coach was the one rejected, the city of Baltimore could not help feeling slurred. That Baltimore now constitutes the N.F.L.'s Black Hole of Calcutta seems rather sad if you know the charms of gritty cities and remember Lenny Moore, Raymond Berry, Jim Parker, Gino Marchetti, Alan Ameche, L.G. ("Long Gone") Dupre, "Big Daddy" Lipscomb and other remarkable players on exceptional Colts teams. "It is nothing but money, greed and selfishness any more," laments former Baltimore Quarterback Johnny Unitas, who never turned down any money but whose first salary in the N.F.L. was $5,000 in 1956.

Last week the Colts finally struck a deal with the Denver Broncos: two No. 1 draft choices plus a spare quarterback for the rights to Elway, who signed instantly, for $5 million over five years, with Denver, as close as he could get to the West Coast. The affair ended the way all N.F.L. episodes conclude lately, with Raiders Operator Al Davis claiming a league conspiracy had prevented him from trading for the Elway pick. One thing, though. The sympathy ordinarily felt toward the livestock seemed to go off somewhere else too. No matter how good they are, workaday towns are nobody's No. 1 draft choice. —By Tom Callahan

KCChiefsMan
04-26-2009, 01:23 PM
Had we taken Marino or Kelly, It would be Blackledge in the hall of fame and not Marino or Kelly

orange
04-26-2009, 01:37 PM
You missed a few lines in your highlighting:


"Gambling was an embarrassing analogy to Kush, whose No. 1 draft choice of 1982, Ohio State Quarterback Art Schlichter, ran up a reported six-figure tab with bookies and recently turned to the FBI for protection. Going 0-8-1 on the field last year in his first N.F.L. season, Kush is 0-9 this year in the Supreme Court, which decided that he would have to defend himself against charges stemming from a sideline assault case brought by a former punter at Arizona State. That incident four seasons ago ended Rush's prosperous 22-year college coaching career. Probably Elway did not crave Kush's style of discipline."

"Even if the coach was the one rejected"

"Elway, who signed instantly, for $5 million over five years, with Denver"


Denver = No Coast

Coogs
04-26-2009, 01:38 PM
You missed a few lines in your highlighting:


"Gambling was an embarrassing analogy to Kush, whose No. 1 draft choice of 1982, Ohio State Quarterback Art Schlichter, ran up a reported six-figure tab with bookies and recently turned to the FBI for protection. Going 0-8-1 on the field last year in his first N.F.L. season, Kush is 0-9 this year in the Supreme Court, which decided that he would have to defend himself against charges stemming from a sideline assault case brought by a former punter at Arizona State. That incident four seasons ago ended Rush's prosperous 22-year college coaching career. Probably Elway did not crave Kush's style of discipline."

"Even if the coach was the one rejected"

"Elway, who signed instantly, for $5 million over five years, with Denver"


Denver = No Coast


Buy some glasses dickhead.

orange
04-26-2009, 01:40 PM
Buy some glasses dickhead.

Learn to understand reality, buttface. The "west coast" preference was just a preference - not a deal breaker. "signed instantly"


http://talk.baltimoresun.com/showthread.php?p=4616730

jAZ
04-26-2009, 01:51 PM
Last week the Colts finally struck a deal with the Denver Broncos: two No. 1 draft choices plus a spare quarterback for the rights to Elway, who signed instantly, for $5 million over five years, with Denver, as close as he could get to the West Coast.

This suggests to me that there is no geographic reason why we couldn't have worked a deal for Elway. KC is close enough. Blacklege, a 1984 #1 (which was much higher than Denver's) would have been enough.

And what's up with the 1984 draft where everyone got back-to-back first round picks that year?

That's weird.

orange
04-26-2009, 01:51 PM
Elway has leverage as he awaits Draft Day

By Dave Payne
April 24, 2008


With the upcoming draft marking the 25th anniversary of the 1983 draft and its remarkable QB class, we’ve decided to republish the following feature about John Elway, written by one-time PFW contributor Dave Payne. The feature was published in the May 1983 pre-draft issue of Pro Football Weekly, with Elway facing a potential dilemma as he awaited Draft Day as the consensus top-ranked prospect in the draft.

If all he did was play quarterback, John Elway would be at the mercy of coach Frank Kush and the hapless Baltimore Colts.

As of now, the Colts have the first pick in this year’s National Football league draft in the wake of a 0-8-1 season. And the No. 1 pick is going to be Elway.

Unfortunately for Kush, the Stanford All-American has another option. If he is drafted by a team he doesn’t prefer, like the Colts, the versatile Elway can pursue a career in professional baseball.

Owner George Steinbrenner of the New York Yankees made Elway his first pick in last summer’s major-league baseball draft. A promising outfielder, Elway signed a contract estimated at $125,000 to play six weeks last summer for the Yankee organization’s Class A team in Oneonta, N.Y., where he batted .318 and had a team-leading 24 RBI. All the contract did was tie Elway to the Yankees in baseball; he is still free to play pro football.

There was — and actually still is — another option for the gifted passer. He was drafted by the Oakland Invaders and reportedly was offered $4 million over five seasons by the United States Football League club. But he turned it down, explaining that he wants to graduate this spring from Stanford with a degree in economics and, at the same time, wait for the NFL draft. Besides, for an athlete like Elway who has always had his heart set on a career in either the NFL or the major leagues, it would have been against his competitive nature to suddenly opt for something called the USFL.

As for the NFL, playing for the Colts is about as appealing to Elway as following in the footsteps of Archie Manning. It may be light-years before the Colts become a contender, and it would take more than an Elway to make them an instant challenger in the AFC East.

Kush has already made a trip west to confer with John’s father, Jack Elway, the head football coach at San Jose State University. What came out of the meeting is top secret, but Jack no doubt told Frank what he has told others, that John wants to play for an NFL team with a good track record and, more importantly, a solid offensive line. Sorry, Frank.

The Colts will end up trading the rights to Elway to the highest bidder. Several teams are interested, including Atlanta, which has offered QB Steve Bartkowski and other goodies for the pick. But, before a deal is completed, the team having a shot at Elway will want to reach an agreement with the quarterback to avoid a bidding war with the Yankees.

Elway, who was a baseball starter his first three springs at Stanford, says he “doesn’t really have a favorite” between football and baseball. At Granada Hills High School in southern California and at Stanford, he enjoyed playing football in the fall and baseball in the spring, and he never gave it much thought beyond that.

“Now I’m beyond the point of playing both,” he says, “so I have to sit down and make a choice between the two. I honestly can’t say at this time which sport I’m going to choose. I’m going to make a selection based on what I believe I’ll be happiest doing over the next 10 years.”

Two of his choices at the moment are coach Kush or Yankee manager Billy Martin. Oh, my.

If it were up to John’s mother, Jan, he would play baseball. She admits she has had more than her fill watching her son being the target of heartless defenders. John’s sisters, Lee Ann, 21, and Jana, 22, on the other hand, want their brother to play football. “They think baseball is boring,” John says with a smile.

Jack Elway naturally wants what is best for John. While the father coaches
football, he also enjoys baseball.

“My hobby is baseball; it’s my release out of football season,” Jack says. “It’s a good sport. I think the toughest thing there is in sports is hitting a baseball.”

Taking that into account, Jack began teaching John, a natural right-hander, to bat left-handed when John was only 3 years old. “A hitter will see far more right-handed curves,” Jack explained, “so he is better off looking at them from the left side.” John does all his batting as a left-hander now, but he could probably be converted into a switch-hitter without much difficulty.

Jack, who will be offering advice to John when it comes time to make the big decision, admits his son’s best sport is football.

“There’s no question that football is where he has had his best success,” Jack said. “He has amazed me with what he has accomplished in the sport.”

“If he does play football, I would like to see him be with a solid organization, one that is a winner and will be in need of a quarterback in two or three years. I don’t think it’s good for a young quarterback to play right away. John has excelled in every aspect of the game, but, mentally, it’s a difficult transition from college to pro football. I would like to see a situation where John would gradually move in and progress while learning.

“But, that might not be John’s thinking. He likes to play and maybe would prefer being the starter when the season opens. If that would happen, I’m sure I’d smoke a lot of cigarettes that day.”

Playing with a winning football team is going to be important to John Elway, his father says.

“One of the things John had his heart set on and didn’t get a chance to do in college was play in a bowl game,” Jack said. “The ultimate for him would have been to play in the Rose Bowl, and the next thing any bowl game. His main motivation his senior year was to win enough games to get into a bowl.”

John Elway, who last season completed 262-of-405 passes for 3,242 yards and 24 touchdowns, could have assured himself of three or four bowl appearances by accepting a football scholarship to perennial Pac-10 Conference powerhouse Southern Cal, but, explained Jack, “he wanted to throw the football, and he knew that’s what he would be able to do at Stanford.”

But the unexpected happened at Stanford, something Jack Elway believes handicapped his son and the school's football program the last four years.

“I thought Stanford was great for John because he would receive an outstanding education and be part of a football program that had coaching continuity,” Jack noted. “What happened was that Bill Walsh recruits John, then goes to the 49ers; Rod Dowhower takes over as coach for a season, then is gone in six months; and then Paul Wiggin comes in. Three coaches can hurt. It really disrupts your recruiting program. Keeping your coaching staff intact is extremely important because it allows you to develop a personality.

“But,” he added, “those are the types of things that are beyond your control. You make a choice and think you’re set; then, suddenly, you don’t have what you thought you did.”

The Elway family is relieved John’s college career is over for one particular reason: Jack and John will no longer be competing against each other.

San Jose State, located about 20 miles south of Stanford, upset the Cardinal the last two seasons, victories Jack admits were difficult for him.

“I had a real ambivalent feeling,” Jack said. “It was a great thing for San Jose to win — for the coaches, players, everyone. But I was never really able to feel the joy of a big win for a community.”

It was doubly difficult for Jan Elway. “Since Jack was in charge of San Jose State’s offense and John was quarterbacking Stanford,” she explained, “I pulled for both offenses to do well. What I really didn’t like was the week of the San Jose State-Stanford game, when I was asked so many questions and with the publicity and all.”

Jack added, “The important thing is that the relationship between John and I wasn’t jeopardized.”

One of the most difficult games in Jack Elway’s coaching career was the 1981 San Jose State-Stanford game, won 28-7 by the Spartans. John, who injured a foot the week before against Purdue, could not escape a relentless pass rush by the Spartans and was sacked on several occasions. Jack was fuming in the fourth quarter when Wiggin still had John at quarterback when San Jose had a three-touchdown lead. John escaped without further injury to his foot, and the incident blew over.

Jack left Fullerton State to become the head coach at San Jose State the same time John entered Stanford.

There was talk John might follow his father to San Jose, but Jack says it’s just as well he didn’t. “At Stanford, John could be himself,” the father said, “and there wouldn’t be any unnecessary pressures on either of us.”

Jack got the opportunity to coach John for the first time in January’s East-West Shrine Classic at Stanford Stadium. Jack, John and the West lost 26-25 on East QB Tony Eason’s six-yard TD pass with 19 seconds left in the game. John was voted the game’s MVP on the strength of 21 completions in 34 attempts for 202 yards and a touchdown. He was unable to finish the game, however, having suffered a bruise to his right elbow in the fourth quarter.

“It was fun playing for Dad,” John Elway said. “It wasn’t fun playing against him all those seasons at Stanford. I really enjoyed coming over to the sidelines and seeing his face there.”

He would enjoy continuing his playing career for a coach like Joe Gibbs at Washington, or Don Shula at Miami.

“That would be a dream,” he said. “That would be ideal. I’d love to play for the Washington Redskins right now, just like anyone would. I’d like to play for the Miami Dolphins or somebody who’s always going to be in contention and has a really good football team. That’s why I play the game. I love to win, like anyone else.”


Editor’s note: As it turned out, the Colts, then owned by Bob Irsay and one year prior to their relocation to Indianapolis, were unable to trade the first overall pick before Draft Day, so they drafted Elway anyway. When he finally convinced the Colts that he would never play for them, they traded him six days after the draft to Denver in exchange for OG-OT Chris Hinton, QB Mark Herrmann and a first-round choice in 1984 (OG Ron Solt) — a deal that was considered a steal for the Broncos even then. After guiding Denver to two Super Bowl wins, Elway is now a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Extras/2008/payne83.htm

jAZ
04-26-2009, 01:54 PM
And what's up with the 1984 draft where everyone got back-to-back first round picks that year?

That's weird.

I guess it's just how this website looked...

http://www.databasefootball.com/draft/draftyear.htm?yr=1984&lg=nfl

It was the supplemental draft picks listed in with the regluar picks.

jAZ
04-26-2009, 01:54 PM
We probably would have had to trade Todd Blackledge and Bill Maas for Elway.

orange
04-26-2009, 01:58 PM
We probably would have had to trade Todd Blackledge and Bill Maas for Elway.

Chris Hinton was the key to the trade, I think. He was the guy the Colts were looking at if they didn't draft Elway.

The Broncos were one of the teams that tried trading for the pick before the draft. I remember believing from the moment the pick was announced that the reason they drafted him was to stay in the hunt.

jAZ
04-26-2009, 02:05 PM
Chris Hinton was the key to the trade, I think. He was the guy the Colts were looking at if they didn't draft Elway.

The Broncos were one of the teams that tried trading for the pick before the draft. I remember believing from the moment the pick was announced that the reason they drafted him was to stay in the hunt.

I didn't realize Denver had the higer pick in 1983. That makes sense.

Still laughing at the case that Elway was making that he was only willing to play out west (I count Denver as "west" even if it's not "westcoast")... or he would go play baseball... out east.

ROFL

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 02:19 PM
Elway wanted to go to a team with a good record that would make him look better. He wouldn't have played for any team with a losing record in the previous few seasons, and I'll bet anything he would've played for Washington 20 miles away since they were strong at the time. Johnny Unitas' quote earlier pegged him exactly: "It is nothing but money, greed and selfishness any more,."

If every NFL player was like Elway, the NFL would cease to exist because we'd have the Harlem Globetrotters and nothing else. That's why I despise the jerk.

orange
04-26-2009, 02:25 PM
From another forum:

I listen to the Dan Patrick Show podcasts. It's a great, free download on iTunes. During yesterday's show, Dan interviewed Jim McMahon. It was classic. McMahon admitted he had just rolled out of bed, brushed his teeth, and put a dip in. So he sounded really out of it. Perhaps even drunk from the night before. There is a short write-up on the si.com site summarizing some of the topics that were broached if you don't care to find the podcast.

Anyway, the part that pertains to this thread is that McMahon talked about how he ended up in Chicago. The Baltimore Colts held the second and fourth picks in the '82 draft. They expressed interest in drafting McMahon, but McMahon's agent was also the agent for Curtis Dickey and was having a hell of a time getting Dickey's contract worked out with Joe Thomas and Irsay. So, as McMahon tells it to Dan Patrick, they told the Colts not to draft him because he would not sign with them.

The Colts ended up drafting Johnnie Cook and Art Schlichter with those picks (the future Baltimore Ravens drafted Chip Banks third) and McMahon fell 5th to the Bears. The Colts also drafted Mike Pagel in the fourth round, who ended up the starter over Schlichter. The rest is history.

The upshot is that Elway, who gets all the grief in Baltimore, was merely repeating the actions of McMahon from the year before. McMahon, remarkably, kept it quiet, and escaped any scorn from taking the exact same stand in 1982 as Elway in 1983.

Had the Colts drafted McMahon, would they even need Elway the next year? Would drafting McMahon in '82 and Eric Dickerson (instead of Elway) in '83 have saved the Colts in Baltimore?

Too late to ask those questions, but it was interesting to hear McMahon's story. Well, a more interesting revelation for Jamison Hemsley to write about, I thought, than the curse of the 26th pick.

vailpass
04-26-2009, 02:31 PM
Elway wanted to go to a team with a good record that would make him look better. He wouldn't have played for any team with a losing record in the previous few seasons, and I'll bet anything he would've played for Washington 20 miles away since they were strong at the time. Johnny Unitas' quote earlier pegged him exactly: "It is nothing but money, greed and selfishness any more,."

If every NFL player was like Elway, the NFL would cease to exist because we'd have the Harlem Globetrotters and nothing else. That's why I despise the jerk.

Elway's dad was his idol, they were very close. Elway's dad was enemies with the Colts ownership/front office over a disagreement that ended with an insult to Jack Elway.

John told them in no uncertain terms that he would never play for them and warned them not to draft him. It wasn't about money, he was going to get paid no matter where he went. It was about not wanting to play for a bad team and an organization he disliked.

Elway had all the cards and played them well. What is wrong with using the leverage you have created through your own efforts?
How can you claim that a player with 5 SB appearances, 2 SB rings, HOF first ballot who represented the NFL with dignity and respect on and off the field is bad for the league?

reiko57
04-26-2009, 04:33 PM
[QUOTE=mlyonsd;5713090]Err, Carl didn't become our GM until 1989.

LMAO

Poor CP, he even gets blamed for things that happened before he became the Chiefs GM. And he'll continue to get blamed for things that happen 50 years from now.

in a way, if football were to be played for 5000 years, carl petersons ripple would be felt for all of them

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 04:44 PM
Elway's dad was his idol, they were very close. Elway's dad was enemies with the Colts ownership/front office over a disagreement that ended with an insult to Jack Elway.

John told them in no uncertain terms that he would never play for them and warned them not to draft him. It wasn't about money, he was going to get paid no matter where he went. It was about not wanting to play for a bad team and an organization he disliked.

Elway had all the cards and played them well. What is wrong with using the leverage you have created through your own efforts?
How can you claim that a player with 5 SB appearances, 2 SB rings, HOF first ballot who represented the NFL with dignity and respect on and off the field is bad for the league?


The #1 pick in the draft got to go to a strong team because he had leverage, and they ended up getting some Super Bowl appearances. That's exactly the problem. If they all did that, the Patriots would win every year and the Lions would be extinct. You want the league to have balance, and that doesn't happen if the top pick gets to go to a strong team just to make himself look better.

If Elway went to the Colts, he might've busted out of the league when you consider how weak his initial stats were with the Broncos. So maybe it was a good move on his part, but it was bad for the game of football.

Deberg_1990
04-26-2009, 04:44 PM
I dont know? Why didnt we draft Dan Marino?

listopencil
04-26-2009, 05:00 PM
Elway wanted to go to a team with a good record that would make him look better. He wouldn't have played for any team with a losing record in the previous few seasons, and I'll bet anything he would've played for Washington 20 miles away since they were strong at the time. Johnny Unitas' quote earlier pegged him exactly: "It is nothing but money, greed and selfishness any more,."

If every NFL player was like Elway, the NFL would cease to exist because we'd have the Harlem Globetrotters and nothing else. That's why I despise the jerk.


Heh, what a joke. The fact is that Elway didn't want to play for a piece of shit FO like Baltimore's was at the time.

listopencil
04-26-2009, 05:06 PM
The #1 pick in the draft got to go to a strong team because he had leverage, and they ended up getting some Super Bowl appearances. That's exactly the problem. If they all did that, the Patriots would win every year and the Lions would be extinct. You want the league to have balance, and that doesn't happen if the top pick gets to go to a strong team just to make himself look better.

If Elway went to the Colts, he might've busted out of the league when you consider how weak his initial stats were with the Broncos. So maybe it was a good move on his part, but it was bad for the game of football.

First- it's the Lions ownership that has crippled that team. How many high picks have they gotten over the last several years and they are...still crap. Pretty sad.

Second- The guy had options. He really didn't have to play for Baltimore. If you don't like that...too bad. I don't know what to tell you when you let jealousy and bitterness warp your perceptions. Carry on, I guess.

orange
04-26-2009, 05:14 PM
The #1 pick in the draft got to go to a strong team because he had leverage ...


Whoa. That "strong team" was 2-7, fifth in the AFC West in 1982. That's why they had the fourth pick in 1983 (Chris Hinton).

But don't let reality get in the way of a good 26+ year stew.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:26 PM
Whoa. That "strong team" was 2-7, fifth in the AFC West in 1982. That's why they had the fourth pick in 1983 (Chris Hinton).

But don't let reality get in the way of a good 26+ year stew.


Ahem (cough, cough).

1982 was a strike year where everything was screwy. The previous six years, the Broncos had been 10-6, 8-8, 10-6, 10-6, 12-2, and 9-5, with a Super Bowl appearance.

You can't compare that with the Colts, who were 0-8-1 in the strike year, preceded by 2-14, 7-9, 5-11, and 5-11 in the previous four years.

The #1 player in the draft went to a playoff team, plain and simple, and they did well in spite of having him for his first several years.

orange
04-26-2009, 05:28 PM
Doesn't matter. The Broncos had a top pick.

San Antonio Spurs got Tim Duncan because David Robinson was injured. Where was the justice? And if you're looking for an event that warped the NFL's balance, what about the most one-sided trade in history being allowed by the Commissioner - the one that gave Dallas four Lombardis?

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:29 PM
Second- The guy had options. He really didn't have to play for Baltimore. If you don't like that...too bad. I don't know what to tell you when you let jealousy and bitterness warp your perceptions. Carry on, I guess.

It was bad for the game, and I think you'd agree if your team hadn't received the player. If I was Pete Rozelle, I wouldn't have let the guy force a trade to a playoff team and disrupt the balance of power. I would've suspended him for a year and let the Colts have the #1 pick the following year.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:34 PM
Doesn't matter. The Broncos had a top pick.

San Antonio Spurs got Tim Duncan because David Robinson was injured. Where was the justice? And if you're looking for an event that warped the NFL's balance, what about the most one-sided trade in history being allowed by the Commissioner - the one that gave Dallas four Lombardis?


I don't think Herschel Walker was responsible for that trade. He would've helped rebuild the Cowboys, but they got more value out of the trade. It helped the weak team rebuild. Elway's tantrum, and the league's allowing of it, hurt the weak team and was bad for the league.

I do recognize that it was of immense value to Elway to get to walk onto a playoff team, so from an individual selfish perspective he made out like a bandit. But again my statement is that it was bad for the game of football and therefore shouldn't have been allowed.

And I feel the same way about Eli Manning. Hate the guy because of what they did during the draft. Hate him. And in that case it nominally was screwing over a division rival, but it makes no difference. It was one player biting the league that was making him rich.

orange
04-26-2009, 05:34 PM
And Magic Johnson forced the Cavs to trade him to the Lakers...

And the Knicks missed the playoffs on the last day of the season and their one ball was pulled first for Patrick Ewing...

... and so on, and so on. Suck it up.

orange
04-26-2009, 05:38 PM
But again my statement is that it was bad for the game of football and therefore shouldn't have been allowed.


In what way was it bad? What floodgates did it open? Your jealousy is transparent. You're just mad because Elway owned the Chiefs - but even that is misplaced because through much of his career, everyone owned the Chiefs.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:39 PM
That's basketball. No one cares about basketball, and it was ruined years ago anyway.

I'm talking about football, and you have three people in 89 years who actively damaged the league in this manner - Elway, Bo Jackson, and Eli Manning. Maybe you can throw Kelly Stouffer in there. I think all of those players should've never been allowed to play other than for the teams that drafted them.

orange
04-26-2009, 05:43 PM
What about everybody who played for a rival league - HOFers Jim Kelly and Steve Young for starters. Oh yeah, and your favorite, Warren Moon?


p.s. I just think it's funny that moments after I told you to suck it up, the Chiefs drafted Ryan Succop. Someone's trying to tell you something.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:45 PM
In what way was it bad? What floodgates did it open? Your jealousy is transparent. You're just mad because Elway owned the Chiefs - but even that is misplaced because through much of his career, everyone owned the Chiefs.

It didn't open floodgates because most players are too classy to repeat their actions and/or don't have the leverage to do so. But he set a bad precedent.

And Elway against the Chiefs? Seriously? Have you seen his stats against the Chiefs? I think one other reason I dislike him is because he's so overrated. He has generally stunk against the Chiefs.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:47 PM
What about everybody who played for a rival league - HOFers Jim Kelly and Steve Young for starters. Oh yeah, and your favorite, Warren Moon?


p.s. I just think it's funny that moments after I told you to suck it up, the Chiefs drafted Ryan Succop. Someone's trying to tell you something.


If they want to go somewhere else, they can go somewhere else. I don't care that Jay Berwanger never showed up to the Bears camp, or that Gale Sayers turned down the Chiefs. Elway went to another team in the league. Huge difference.

orange
04-26-2009, 05:47 PM
It didn't open floodgates because most players are too classy to repeat their actions and/or don't have the leverage to do so. But he set a bad precedent.

And Elway against the Chiefs? Seriously? Have you seen his stats against the Chiefs? I think one other reason I dislike him is because he's so overrated. He has generally stunk against the Chiefs.

I'm speaking of ownership in the season records/playoffs sense.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:49 PM
I'm speaking of ownership in the season records/playoffs sense.


So you're saying the Broncos won more despite Elway's performances?

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:50 PM
Let's look at the superhero named John Elway against the Chiefs.


1983

13 of 34 for 143 yards, 0 TDs, 4 interceptions. Chiefs win 48-17.
Didn't play in the other game.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:52 PM
1984

16 of 36 for 183 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int. Chiefs win 16-13
17 of 29 for 172 yards, 0 TD, 2 Int. Broncos win 21-0 in spite of him.

orange
04-26-2009, 05:53 PM
So you're saying the Broncos won more despite Elway's performances?

No. You really have to reach for that. I'm saying he piled up WINS and DIVISION CHAMPIONSHIPS and PLAYOFF VICTORIES and CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIPS and eventually WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS while the Chiefs were busy soiling their diapers.

And of course, in the biggest Broncos-Chiefs game EVER, who won?

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:54 PM
1985

Broncos win 14-13. Patented Elway heroics? Well, you decide. 22 of 37 for 301 yards, 1 TD, 5 Int.

Broncos win 30-10. Elway is 13 of 20 for 116 yards, 0 TD, 0 Int.

Two Bronco wins, Elway stinks in both of them.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:56 PM
1986

23 of 42, 246 yards, 1 TD, 4 Int, as the Chiefs win 37-10. Love those interceptions.

Broncos win 38-17 despite Elway's performance of 15 of 29 for 196 yards, 0 TD, 0 Int. Yawner.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:57 PM
Four years in the league so far, and has Elway been responsible for a win over the Chiefs yet? No, sirree.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 05:59 PM
1987. Plays the Chiefs only once because he's on strike.

18 of 31 for 237 yards, 1 TD, 0 Int. Broncos win 20-17. First time he had a performance that wasn't bad in a win over the Chiefs. Not good, but not bad.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:01 PM
1988

Broncos win 17-11 in one of the Chiefs' low-water years. Elway goes 14 of 28 for 183 yards, 1 TD, 2 Int. Broncos win, Elway stinks again.

15 of 32 for 213 yards, 0 TD, 2 Int as KC wins 20-13. Typically Smellway performance.

Dave Lane
04-26-2009, 06:01 PM
Yes and Kansas City was ocean once too

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:02 PM
For those of you keeping score, that's six years now with 1 300-yard game, and in that game he threw 5 interceptions.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:04 PM
1989. A tough-talking Philly guy arrives on the scene and brings a linebacker with him.

Denver wins 16-13 despite Elway's 11 of 22 for 133 yards, 0 TD, 1 Int performance.

Denver wins again 34-20. Was Elway the star? Ummmm, 16 of 28 for 150 yards, 1 TD, 2 Int. Nope.

orange
04-26-2009, 06:05 PM
ROFLNo. You really have to reach for that. I'm saying he piled up WINS and DIVISION CHAMPIONSHIPS and PLAYOFF VICTORIES and CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIPS and eventually WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS while the Chiefs were busy soiling their diapers.

And of course, in the biggest Broncos-Chiefs game EVER, who won?

I notice you're not listing the teams' records for each season - despite my specifically saying that's what I'm talking about.

Too bad for you Championships, Pro-Bowls, MVPs, and Hall of Fame membership aren't based on a player's stats versus the Chiefs or you could write up your "expose'" and send it to the NFL and have Elway banned retroactively. ROFL

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:07 PM
1990 and the Chiefs are no longer doormats. It's Elway's 8th year in the league without a single star-quality performance against the Chiefs.

KC wins 31-20. Elway goes 20 of 31 for 231 yards, 2 TDs, 1 Int. It's the first game ever where he threw for 2 TDs against the Chiefs.

Denver wins 24-23. Elways is 14 of 30 for 263 yards, 0 TDs, 0 Ints.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:10 PM
1991.

Broncos win 24-20. Elway goes 9 of 20 for 134 yards, 1 TD, 0 Int. Woot.

Denver wins 19-16. 14 of 27 for 270 yards, 1 TD, 0 Int. 9 years in the league, and finally a decent game.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:11 PM
1992

Chiefs win 42-20. Elway is 16 of 32, 211 yards, 1 TD, 2 Int. Typical.

Broncos win 20-19. Okay, this was a good game for the ex-Colt. 23 of 38, 311 yards, 2 TDs, 0 Int.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:14 PM
1993. 11th year in the league.

Denver wins 27-21, and he has another decent game. 20 of 30, 221 yards, 3 TDs, 2 Int. No yardage and interceptions, but some scores.

Chiefs win 15-7. 28 of 45 for 300 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int. You lose.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:15 PM
1994.

Broncos win 20-17. 18 of 22 for 256 yards, 1 TD, 0 Int. Game manager.

Chiefs win 31-28. 18 of 29 for 263 yards, 2 TD, 0 Int. Don't even try to mess with Montana.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:16 PM
No. You really have to reach for that. I'm saying he piled up WINS and DIVISION CHAMPIONSHIPS and PLAYOFF VICTORIES and CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIPS and eventually WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS while the Chiefs [played by the rules].



Because he joined a playoff team. That's the whole problem.

Skip Towne
04-26-2009, 06:17 PM
I seem to remember that Elway sent letters to every team he would not play for telling them not to draft him.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:19 PM
1995. Now he should do well - 13 years in the league with a league-leading RB behind him.

Chiefs win 20-17. 24 of 36 for 242 yards, 1 TD, 0 Int. Okay, just keep handing it off.

Chiefs win 21-7. 21 of 40 for 214 yards, 1 TD, 2 Int. No play-action ability, apparently.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:21 PM
1996.

14th year in the league, and here's the first game where I can admit that Elway led them to victory. (Keep in mind that they were cheating on the salary cap at this point, though.) Broncos win 34-7, 16 of 31 for 286 yards, 3 TDs, 1 Int.

Chiefs win 17-14. 14 of 30, 156 yards, 0 TD, 2 Int. That's the Elway I know.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:22 PM
1997.

Chiefs win 24-22. Elway is 18 of 31 for 232 yards, 1 TD, 0 Int.

Broncos win 19-3. Elway is 17 of 28 for 246 yards, 0 TD, 0 Int.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:25 PM
1998.

Denver wins 35-31. Elway is 22 of 32 for 400 yards, 2 TD, 1 Int. Rod Smith was good. I admit it.

Didn't play in other Chiefs game.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:29 PM
But surely, you say, surely Elway ran well against the Chiefs. He scrambled and everything.

Quiz: In his career, how many games did Elway have with more than 30 yards rushing against the Chiefs?

3.

Of those, how many were more than 40 yards?

1.


Honestly, if you wanted to offer me those QB stats by a Broncos QB over the next 16 years, I'd say 'bring him on'.

orange
04-26-2009, 06:42 PM
If your numbers are right (they're NOT, of course - you left out the third game in 1997)

Elway 18 - Chiefs 12
Elway 12 - Chiefs 8 after Marty. Including a playoff victory in Kansas City.

Correct? (I'm double-checking my count).

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:45 PM
A summary of his career against the Chiefs. He stank twice as often as he played well, and his performance 3/4ths of the Broncos' wins against the Chiefs came on bad to mediocre performances.

Games where Elway stank and Chiefs won: 6
Games where Elway was mediocre and Chiefs won: 2
Games where Elway played well and Chiefs won: 3

Games where Elway stank and Broncos won: 7
Games where Elway was mediocre and Broncos won: 5
Games where Elway played well and Broncos won: 4

Coogs
04-26-2009, 06:47 PM
No. You really have to reach for that. I'm saying he piled up WINS and DIVISION CHAMPIONSHIPS and PLAYOFF VICTORIES and CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIPS and eventually WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS while the Chiefs were busy soiling their diapers.

And of course, in the biggest Broncos-Chiefs game EVER, who won?


Pretty damn sad when it is draft day and you have to hang out on the BB of another team.

orange
04-26-2009, 06:47 PM
SCOREBOARD!

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:50 PM
If your numbers are right (they're NOT, of course - you left out the third game in 1997)

Elway 18 - Chiefs 12
Elway 12 - Chiefs 8 after Marty. Including a playoff victory in Kansas City.

Correct? (I'm double-checking my count).

You want to include his 18 of 31 for 231 yards, 0 TD, 1 Int, 1 fumble lost performance where the Broncos won because the Chiefs had a touchdown nullified on a bad call by a score of 14 to 10? Okay. Give the Broncos another win where Elway stank.

It appears pretty obvious that the Broncos' winning record against the Chiefs was more a result of winning despite Elway than winning because of him. Any reasonable person would admit it.

orange
04-26-2009, 06:52 PM
You want to include his 18 of 31 for 231 yards, 0 TD, 1 Int, 1 fumble lost performance where the Broncos won because the Chiefs had a touchdown nullified on a bad call by a score of 14 to 10? Okay. Give the Broncos another win where Elway stank.

It appears pretty obvious that the Broncos' winning record against the Chiefs was more a result of winning despite Elway than winning because of him. Any reasonable person would admit it.

Any reasonable person would admit you don't have to throw for 300 yds and 3 TDs when you're WINNING.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 06:52 PM
And with that, I conclude my scorching expose that proves that John Elway is the worst quarterback who ever dragged his knuckles across a football field. You may feel free to contact the Pulitzer Award committee at any time.

orange
04-26-2009, 06:54 PM
And with that, I conclude my scorching expose that proves that John Elway is the worst quarterback who ever dragged his knuckles across a football field. You may feel free to contact the Pulitzer Award committee at any time.

You should multiquote yourself posts into one post, edit it into one essay, and send it in.

Seriously.

No, really.

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 07:08 PM
You should multiquote yourself posts into one post, edit it into one essay, and send it in.

Seriously.

No, really.


Gosh, you think so? Maybe I will. But I don't know, it might seem self-serving.

Skip Towne
04-26-2009, 08:16 PM
How do you conjugate "stink"? Is it stink stank stunk or stink stank stank?

Rain Man
04-26-2009, 08:19 PM
How do you conjugate "stink"? Is it stink stank stunk or stink stank stank?

I think it's:

Elway stinks.
Elway stank whenever he played the Chiefs.
Elway has stunk any time he played the Chiefs.
If Elway had stunk any worse when he played the Chiefs, the EPA would have evacuated the stadium.


Thanks for the opportunity to say this.