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View Full Version : Chiefs My opinion of Scott Pioli will be set based on the performance of this draft class.


Frankie
04-27-2009, 11:58 AM
These guys better be solid. I don't expect superstars but I expect each and everyone of them to contribute to a serious rapid surge towards being a SB contender.

I AM (as my other thread indicated) a bit concerned about this draft. I admit, part of that feeling is I expected perhaps a sexier or a more thrilling draft.

Another part is perhaps the middle eastern blood in me. It makes me a bit of a wheeler dealer in life and as such I really get excited about my favorite team engage in it. I envied Dallas under Jones and Johnson on draft days while I got frustrated with Peterson.

I expected pioli to rape some lesser GM out of their draft picks, move up and down the board and build up a cashe of future picks. While Belichick did this again, Pioli - at least it seems for now - got concervative and forced his picks (ala Carl Peterson). OK, I really didn't expect that dynamic a draft day as I realize that Belichik had more ammunition to do this with. But zero?! Nada?! Zilch?! I really liked Tyson Jackson, but he was not the only one I liked. Maybe we chould have made a trade with the Jets and if Pioli is the genius that every one says he is he could have squeezed a better deal from then than Cleveland did.

I also cannot understand why everything is forced toward a 3-4 or bust. Nothing's wrong with 4-3, especially if we already have accumulated some viable personnel for it. Why not use our picks toward improving on our 4-3 personnel and also address some glaring needs. And please don't give me the bullshit about we need EVERYTHING! That's a cop out and the first poster who plays that card will earn himself (or herself) a nice neg-rep. Fact is we seemed to run behind, throughout the draft, after our first pick. Maybe our lack of a 2nd caused that. But I do wonder if we had picked Maualuga for example with a 2nd whether we would have had a course adjustment and could have run into better prospects before they were picked ahead of us.

But those are the breaks. I am not unhappy with having the 2nd spent on Cassel. But he also better pan out big. In short, if Cassel and the rest of our draftees put my mind at ease, I'm prepared to become a Pioli groupy and bow to his genius like the rest of you are with blind faith. NOT BEFORE! If the selectees cause this team to lose even one year of recovery, I will brand Pioli another pig-headed clone of Carl Peterson who sacrificed our roster for a system. Bottom line, Pioli will be either a god of football or a total loser in my eyes after next season. No shades of gray in this for me.

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 12:04 PM
These guys better be solid. I don't expect superstars but I expect each and everyone of them to contribute to a serious rapid surge towards being a SB contender. I AM (as my other thread indicated) a bit concerned about this draft. I admit, part of that feeling is I expected perhaps a sexier or a more thrilling draft. Another part is perhaps the middle eastern blood in me. It makes me a bit of a wheeler dealer in life and as such I really get excited about my favorite team engage in it. I envied Dallas under Jones and Johnson on draft days while I got frustrated with Peterson. I expected pioli to rape some lesser GM out of their draft picks, move up and down the board and build up a cashe of future picks. While Belichick did this again, Pioli - at least it seems for now - got concervative and forced his picks (ala Carl Peterson). OK, I really didn't expect that dynamic a draft day as I realize that Belichik had more ammunition to do this with. But zero?! Nada?! Zilch?! I really liked Tyson Jackson, but he was not the only one I liked. I also cannot understand why everything is forced toward a 3-4 or bust. Nothing's wrong with 4-3, especially if we already have accumulated some viable personnel for it. Why not use our picks toward improving on our 4-3 personnel and also address some glaring needs. And please don't give me the bullshit about we need EVERYTHING! That's a cop out and the first poster who plays that card will earn himself (or herself) a nice neg-rep. Fact is we seemed to run behind, throughout the draft, after our first pick. Maybe our lack of a 2nd caused that. But I do wonder if we had picked Maualuga for example with a 2nd whether we would have had a course adjustment and could have run into better prospects before they were picked ahead of us. But those are the breaks. I am not unhappy with having the 2nd spent on Cassel. But he also better pan out big. In short, if Cassel and the rest of our draftees put my mind at ease, I'm prepared to become a Pioli groupy and bow to his genius like the rest of you are with blind faith. NOT BEFORE! If the selectees cause this team to lose even one year of recovery, I will brand Pioli another pig-headed clone of Carl Peterson who sacrificed our roster for a system. Bottom line, Pioli will be either a god of football or a total loser in my eyes after next season. No shades of gray in this for me.

Starts a post and threatens to neg rep naysayers. :clap:ROFL

Mr. Krab
04-27-2009, 12:06 PM
Starts a post and threatens to neg rep naysayers. :clap:ROFL
Sounds like he's challenging everyone to a rep war, doesn't it?

:fire:

Basileus777
04-27-2009, 12:06 PM
Paragraphs are your friend.

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 12:06 PM
These guys better be solid. I don't expect superstars but I expect each and everyone of them to contribute to a serious rapid surge towards being a SB contender.

How often does every single member of a draft class significantly contribute to a team at all? Much less help make a last place team a SB contender?

Pants
04-27-2009, 12:07 PM
WALL OF TEXT!!!1

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 12:08 PM
Bottom line, Pioli will be either a god of football or a total loser in my eyes after next season. No shades of gray in this for me.

Also, not only do all these players have to kick ass, but they have to do it in their rookie seasons. Come on, dude. You can't be serious.

Woodrow Call
04-27-2009, 12:08 PM
Paragraphs are your friend.

This

I can't read it, I've tried but I can't pull it off.

The Bad Guy
04-27-2009, 12:09 PM
So if this class turns out to suck, but the Chiefs win the SB in 2 years, you'll still hate him.

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 12:09 PM
WALL OF TEXT!!!1

I'm trying to break down the highlights as I go. :p

Mr. Flopnuts
04-27-2009, 12:10 PM
Paragraphs are your friend.

This

I can't read it, I've tried but I can't pull it off.

I enjoy your takes Frankie but I agree. I simply can't give myself a headache to read it. Could you split it up into 3 or 4 paragraphs?

Pants
04-27-2009, 12:12 PM
I enjoy your takes Frankie but I agree. I simply can't give myself a headache to read it. Could you split it up into 3 or 4 paragraphs?

There is nothing to read. That wall of text is full of retard.

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 12:13 PM
There is nothing to read. That wall of text is full of retard.

:eek:I hope the reason there's no response from Frankie isn't because he's busy Neg Repping us!

Pants
04-27-2009, 12:14 PM
:eek:I hope the reason there's no response from Frankie isn't because he's busy Neg Repping us!

oh noes~

Cannibal
04-27-2009, 12:15 PM
Frankie = Douche.

I used to get excited about the draft. But what's the point? It takes 3-4 years for real answers about draft picks to come in. I can't believe after all these years how worked up people get over the draft.

NO ONE has any idea how this draft will end up.

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 12:17 PM
Frankie = Douche.

I used to get excited about the draft. But what's the point? It takes 3-4 years for real answers about draft picks to come in. I can't believe after all these years how worked up people get over the draft.

NO ONE has any idea how this draft will end up.

No one really has any idea how LAST years draft will end up.

Frankie
04-27-2009, 12:17 PM
How often does every single member of a draft class significantly contribute to a team at all? Much less help make a last place team a SB contender?

When it is a significant year for a team. I'm of the opinion that our team is not that far from having a reasonably good roster and I don't see any reason to F it up just because of a personal infatuation with a different system. This draft IMO could have taken us a giant step higher. Instead I'm afraid it at best will take us back to where we are right now. What personnel we may have gained are a wash when you consider the personnel that will no longer fit our system and we will either release or give to other teams at bargain prices.

tooge
04-27-2009, 12:18 PM
I just want to see hwat happens. They need EVERYTHING

Pioli Zombie
04-27-2009, 12:18 PM
These guys better be solid. I don't expect superstars but I expect each and everyone of them to contribute to a serious rapid surge towards being a SB contender. I AM (as my other thread indicated) a bit concerned about this draft. I admit, part of that feeling is I expected perhaps a sexier or a more thrilling draft. Another part is perhaps the middle eastern blood in me. It makes me a bit of a wheeler dealer in life and as such I really get excited about my favorite team engage in it. I envied Dallas under Jones and Johnson on draft days while I got frustrated with Peterson. I expected pioli to rape some lesser GM out of their draft picks, move up and down the board and build up a cashe of future picks. While Belichick did this again, Pioli - at least it seems for now - got concervative and forced his picks (ala Carl Peterson). OK, I really didn't expect that dynamic a draft day as I realize that Belichik had more ammunition to do this with. But zero?! Nada?! Zilch?! I really liked Tyson Jackson, but he was not the only one I liked. I also cannot understand why everything is forced toward a 3-4 or bust. Nothing's wrong with 4-3, especially if we already have accumulated some viable personnel for it. Why not use our picks toward improving on our 4-3 personnel and also address some glaring needs. And please don't give me the bullshit about we need EVERYTHING! That's a cop out and the first poster who plays that card will earn himself (or herself) a nice neg-rep. Fact is we seemed to run behind, throughout the draft, after our first pick. Maybe our lack of a 2nd caused that. But I do wonder if we had picked Maualuga for example with a 2nd whether we would have had a course adjustment and could have run into better prospects before they were picked ahead of us. But those are the breaks. I am not unhappy with having the 2nd spent on Cassel. But he also better pan out big. In short, if Cassel and the rest of our draftees put my mind at ease, I'm prepared to become a Pioli groupy and bow to his genius like the rest of you are with blind faith. NOT BEFORE! If the selectees cause this team to lose even one year of recovery, I will brand Pioli another pig-headed clone of Carl Peterson who sacrificed our roster for a system. Bottom line, Pioli will be either a god of football or a total loser in my eyes after next season. No shades of gray in this for me.

Gee, wow. I don't know how I can wait for your important assessment.
Posted via Mobile Device

Frankie
04-27-2009, 12:18 PM
Starts a post and threatens to neg rep naysayers. :clap:ROFL

You didn't read the whole thing did you. Only one sentence jumped out at you? :shake:

Pants
04-27-2009, 12:19 PM
When it is a significant year for a team. I'm of the opinion that our team is not that far from having a reasonably good roster and I don't see any reason to F it up just because of a personal infatuation with a different system. This draft IMO could have taken us a giant step higher. Instead I'm afraid it at best will take us back to where we are right now. What personnel we may have gained are a wash when you consider the personnel that will no longer fit our system and we will either release or give to other teams at bargain prices.

By "personnel" you mean Dorsey?

Frankie
04-27-2009, 12:20 PM
Sounds like he's challenging everyone to a rep war, doesn't it?

:fire:

I do not believe in rep wars. To me that's an illegitimate use of what negs were inted for. The "we need help EVERYWHERE" card has been played too often not to warrant a neg rep though.

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 12:21 PM
When it is a significant year for a team. I'm of the opinion that our team is not that far from having a reasonably good roster and I don't see any reason to F it up just because of a personal infatuation with a different system. This draft IMO could have taken us a giant step higher. Instead I'm afraid it at best will take us back to where we are right now. What personnel we may have gained are a wash when you consider the personnel that will no longer fit our system and we will either release or give to other teams at bargain prices.

Even though I like the switch to the 3-4, I understand the arguement against it. I was just pointing out that it is completely unrealistic to expect every player drafted this year (or any year) to pan out as a significant contributer. If all but two maybe three of these guys are solid Chiefs in a few years, with Jackson leading a vastly improved D-Line, I will consider this a pretty decent draft.

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 12:21 PM
You didn't read the whole thing did you. Only one sentence jumped out at you? :shake:

I read it all......God help me I read it all.

Messier
04-27-2009, 12:22 PM
So if a year from now these picks don't seem to be panning out, and I don't even know what that means, let's say Jackson is the only starter, Okay? Then it's time to state that Pioli is a bum and needs to go? He gets this year and this draft to prove himself as a GM and then it's time to go. Does the next GM get one year too?

Pioli Zombie
04-27-2009, 12:24 PM
So if a year from now these picks don't seem to be panning out, and I don't even know what that means, let's say Jackson is the only starter, Okay? Then it's time to state that Pioli is a bum and needs to go? He gets this year and this draft to prove himself as a GM and then it's time to go. Does the next GM get one year too?

That about sums up a lot of jackasses on this board
Posted via Mobile Device

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 12:24 PM
So if a year from now these picks don't seem to be panning out, and I don't even know what that means, let's say Jackson is the only starter, Okay? Then it's time to state that Pioli is a bum and needs to go? He gets this year and this draft to prove himself as a GM and then it's time to go. Does the next GM get one year too?

Don't forget Cassel is essentially our second rounder, so there's another starter right there.

Frankie
04-27-2009, 12:27 PM
Paragraphs are your friend.

This

I can't read it, I've tried but I can't pull it off.

WALL OF TEXT!!!1

A bunch of wussies you are. Go back and read it now that I have reformatted.

Pants
04-27-2009, 12:33 PM
A bunch of wussies you are. Go back and read it now that I have reformatted.

The wall didn't deter me.

Frankie
04-27-2009, 12:35 PM
Frankie = Douche.

I used to get excited about the draft. But what's the point? It takes 3-4 years for real answers about draft picks to come in. I can't believe after all these years how worked up people get over the draft.

NO ONE has any idea how this draft will end up.

Actually a real douche is one who calls others names while missing the entire point of their post. Trust me, go chect the dictionary on this.

Most drafts should be judged in 3 or 4 years, I agree. But there are always exceptions to things. Our team did get a fairly immediate impact from last year's draft. Poor coaching and personnel decisions were what led us to a 2-14 record. Another draft like last years while keeping the rudder firm would have put this team over the top toward viability immediately. Instead we are forcing a new system our roster be damned.

bevischief
04-27-2009, 12:35 PM
There is nothing to read. That wall of text is full of retard.

ROFLROFL

tooge
04-27-2009, 12:37 PM
Look, you wont even be able to evaluate it after this season. Next? Maybe, but you are talking about a bunch of rookies, except for Cassel. I look at this years draft under Pioli this way. Comming in, it was pretty obvious what the chiefs needed to be competitive. First, D line help, both in scheme and talent. Second, solid quarterback play. Thigpen showed he was a solid backup, that is all. Third, an O line player or two and some depth there.

tooge
04-27-2009, 12:41 PM
Look, you wont even be able to evaluate it after this season. Next? Maybe, but you are talking about a bunch of rookies, except for Cassel. I look at this years draft under Pioli this way. Comming in, it was pretty obvious what the chiefs needed to be competitive. First, D line help, both in scheme and talent. Second, solid quarterback play. Thigpen showed he was a solid backup, that is all. Third, an O line player or two and some depth there.OOps.

I think they adressed the first two concerns in the draft and with the Cassel trade. They made some ground in the third area (O line) with the signing of Mike Goff, but that is only a stopgap. Rome wasn't built in a day, so maybe the rest of the O line issues are adressed in next years free agency and draft. Maybe they get lucky with the tackle they took this year and can move him inside or something. Overall though, I think they are adressing the major concerns of the team that were obvious when the new regime took over. what more can you ask?

Tuckdaddy
04-27-2009, 12:41 PM
My opinion of him will be based on Wins and Wins alone.

Frankie
04-27-2009, 12:43 PM
So if a year from now these picks don't seem to be panning out, and I don't even know what that means, let's say Jackson is the only starter, Okay? Then it's time to state that Pioli is a bum and needs to go? He gets this year and this draft to prove himself as a GM and then it's time to go. Does the next GM get one year too?

Pretty much the spirit of my rant. Except for your last sentence. Any time a new GM comes in and does immediate "fix" to something that does not need fixing (just improving), with a "just because" attitude, he gets one year from me. Not to win the Superbowl. But to show viability. His first draft better be terrific. I'm tired of waiting and i'm not getting any younger. I've been a loyal fan of this team from age 19 and I'm well into my 50s now.

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2008/6/16/mad_as_hell.jpg

Frankie
04-27-2009, 12:59 PM
First, D line help, both in scheme and talent.See I disagree there. We had arguably the best player in the draft last year. I believe Tank could be a viable DT with good coaching. I'm not that sour on Tamba Hali. He had no help. All we need there is a good RE for a 4-3. There were potentially good ones in this draft through the 3rd round if we had kept the 4-3.

Second, solid quarterback play. Thigpen showed he was a solid backup, that is all. Third, an O line player or two and some depth there.
I agree with your QB assessment and that's why I have been willing to accept and believe in the Cassel trade. I totally identify O-line as an area of need, especially with our new expensive QB. Our only attempt at addressing that in this draft was a doubious one at best. Is switching to 3-4 such a glaring need that out-necessitates the O-line needs?

Pants
04-27-2009, 01:02 PM
I believe Tank could be a viable DT with good coaching. I'm not that sour on Tamba Hali. He had no help. All we need there is a good RE for a 4-3. There were potentially good ones in this draft through the 3rd round if we had kept the 4-3.


Wrong.

2-14.

Frankie
04-27-2009, 01:05 PM
Wrong.

2-14.

There's a VACANCY on the top floor, hey?

Pants
04-27-2009, 01:11 PM
There's a VACANCY on the top floor, hey?

Frankie, how can you expect something like what you posted in OP and call yourself sane? That's one.

Two - Pioli doesn't give a flying fuck of what your opinion is of him or anything else for that matter.

Three - Pioli knows 3-4, that's what he knows to draft for. Your argument about pieces in place for 4-3 isn't very sound anyway.

tooge
04-27-2009, 01:15 PM
See I disagree there. We had arguably the best player in the draft last year. I believe Tank could be a viable DT with good coaching. I'm not that sour on Tamba Hali. He had no help. All we need there is a good RE for a 4-3. There were potentially good ones in this draft through the 3rd round if we had kept the 4-3.


I agree with your QB assessment and that's why I have been willing to accept and believe in the Cassel trade. I totally identify O-line as an area of need, especially with our new expensive QB. Our only attempt at addressing that in this draft was a doubious one at best. Is switching to 3-4 such a glaring need that out-necessitates the O-line needs?

No, because if you wanted to change the GM and head coach, which everyone did, then you have to accept the philosophical changes that come with it. You knew Pioli was gonna go 3-4. He is a Parcels, Belichick disciple. I could argue that maybe we should have found a different GM then if we had the talent to run the 3-4. Fact is, the D didn't get it done last year with the talent they had and it wasn't just because of 1 pass rusher. If you remember, they got gashed at the run also. The D needed a scheme change, coordinator change, and attitude change, and now they have done that. As far as O line, what is wrong with this?
LT Albert
LG Waters
Center Rudy (cant spell is last name)
RG Goff
RT Taylor, or Rookie, or Last years rookie
Macintosh backs up Goff and Taylor. That O line is servicable for a year or two, and that is plenty of time to rebuild it. Read Gretzs site today. He has a great comparison with how new england drafted in 2001 and the chiefs drafted this year. Eerily similar. This is how Pioli does it. Build a 3-4 front seven. Then draft O line and skill players. I'd say we are right on track

DaWolf
04-27-2009, 01:20 PM
So if this class turns out to suck, but the Chiefs win the SB in 2 years, you'll still hate him.

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T

Exactly.

Let's not forget the Pats went 6-10 in Bill Belichik's first year, despite all of their supposed genius. You don't build a dynasty overnight. And you also don't want to build a team like Green Bay which goes from "best young team in the NFL" one year to disaster the next.

This thing will not be built overnight...

Frankie
04-27-2009, 01:22 PM
Frankie, how can you expect something like what you posted in OP and call yourself sane? That's one.

Two - Pioli doesn't give a flying **** of what your opinion is of him or anything else for that matter.

Three - Pioli knows 3-4, that's what he knows to draft for. Your argument about pieces in place for 4-3 isn't very sound anyway.

One - (btw you missed it) Just because questioning Pioli is sacreligious in your opinion I'm insane. that statement by itself speaks of how blurry you are.

Two - Where did I say that I'm looking for his approval of my opinion?

Three - The god of football and the savior does not know 4-3? Then how can you blindly defend him and call yourself sane?

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 01:28 PM
Pretty much the spirit of my rant. Except for your last sentence. Any time a new GM comes in and does immediate "fix" to something that does not need fixing (just improving), with a "just because" attitude, he gets one year from me. Not to win the Superbowl. But to show viability. His first draft better be terrific. I'm tired of waiting and i'm not getting any younger. I've been a loyal fan of this team from age 19 and I'm well into my 50s now.

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2008/6/16/mad_as_hell.jpg

I even agree that Pioli should be largly judged on the success of this class, but demanding that they all pan out in one year is just insane.

If Pioli is handled with this kind of knee jerk ownership, then you will be waiting for a lot longer. You might as well start rooting for the Raiders or the Redskins.

Pants
04-27-2009, 01:32 PM
One - (btw you missed it) Just because questioning Pioli is sacreligious in your opinion I'm insane. that statement by itself speaks of how blurry you are.

Two - Where did I say that I'm looking for his approval of my opinion?

Three - The god of football and the savior does not know 4-3? Then how can you blindly defend him and call yourself sane?

Why are you of the opinion that I don't question Pioli or that doing so is sacrilegious in my mind? Is it because I don't expect him to draft a superstar in every round? What is wrong with you, man?

And I know you're probably not finishing reading my posts in your rage, but I didn't, in fact, miss it.

kstater
04-27-2009, 02:57 PM
JFC

bkkcoh
04-27-2009, 03:09 PM
Maybe one should wait until he has his own scouts in place before really judging him on the draft.

chiefzilla1501
04-27-2009, 03:10 PM
When it is a significant year for a team. I'm of the opinion that our team is not that far from having a reasonably good roster and I don't see any reason to F it up just because of a personal infatuation with a different system. This draft IMO could have taken us a giant step higher. Instead I'm afraid it at best will take us back to where we are right now. What personnel we may have gained are a wash when you consider the personnel that will no longer fit our system and we will either release or give to other teams at bargain prices.

Well, Frankie, let's see if this makes sense to you. Do you think that when Dick Vermeil came into Kansas City that the front office should have forced him to coach around Marty Schottenheimer's players? Given that we know Vermeil wanted lighter, 180 lb receivers, should we force him to use another guy's 200+ lb, bigger west coast receivers? There's no reason for Pioli to be forced to run another guy's system. When most new coaches come in, the GMs build a system around that coach and generally give them at least 3 years to turn the team around. It's especially true with a new GM--that's why you let him bring in his own coaches most of the time. Pioli really wants to run a 3-4. It's what he likes, it's what he knows, it's what he's good at. Why should he have to suffer behind the mistakes of Carl Peterson? So we'll suck for 1-2 years on D as we transition, but we're not building to win now. We're building toward a strong foundation for 3+ years from now.

And so, when you say you'll negatively rep anyone who suggests that we need help everywhere, can you tell me if you truly believe that this team can be built around our current front 7? Because the only guy on that front 7 that must be protected is Glenn Dorsey--and we have no idea if he'll pan out at all. You don't build the defense around one guy. It sucks that we might have to burn last year's #5 pick, but the cost of that is well worth the reward of your GM having the ability to build a defense that he believes in.

Sure, we can ask Pioli to scout and recruit for a 4-3. If he's a good GM, he should know how to do it. But you're asking him to build a defense he doesn't believe in and you're expecting that he knows how to recruit 4-3 players as well as he does 3-4. Over time, I'm sure Pioli has developed a certain eye for finding the right players based on a 3-4 mentality. While some of the evaluations for these players might be the same, they are also quite different--case in point, the fact that Pioli gushes over Tyson Jackson while most traditional 4-3 coaches think it's a major reach.

So to answer your question, it's what we're good at and while there is obviously some cost and short-term pain involved to make the switch, it's well worth it for the long-term benefit we'll get from it.

Fritz88
04-27-2009, 03:35 PM
come on Frankie, we will need to wait at least 3 years to judge this year's class.

Carl had the jackpot with DT but then sucked monkey balls afterwards..it's hard to judge..

CoMoChief
04-27-2009, 03:44 PM
Unless our DE becomes the next Richard Seymour I think this draft really sucked.

Frankie
04-27-2009, 03:51 PM
Why are you of the opinion that I don't question Pioli or that doing so is sacrilegious in my mind? Is it because I don't expect him to draft a superstar in every round? What is wrong with you, man?

And I know you're probably not finishing reading my posts in your rage, but I didn't, in fact, miss it.

There was no sure superstar in this draft class. I never asked for a superstar. It's obviously you who don't finish reading my posts.

kstater
04-27-2009, 03:52 PM
There was no sure superstar in this draft class. I never asked for a superstar. It's obviously you who don't finish reading my posts.

Yet you expect all 7 picks to play like super stars and be great their rookie year.

Frankie
04-27-2009, 03:52 PM
Maybe one should wait until he has his own scouts in place before really judging him on the draft.

Acceptable point. In a limited way.

Frankie
04-27-2009, 04:09 PM
Well, Frankie, let's see if this makes sense to you. Do you think that when Dick Vermeil came into Kansas City that the front office should have forced him to coach around Marty Schottenheimer's players? Given that we know Vermeil wanted lighter, 180 lb receivers, should we force him to use another guy's 200+ lb, bigger west coast receivers?When DV came in we had an old team. The time was ripe for a rebuild and a new system. The diff here is we are halfway through a rebuild with another system. Arguably half the young starting roster is in place. the timing to force a new system is terrible.


And so, when you say you'll negatively rep anyone who suggests that we need help everywhere, can you tell me if you truly believe that this team can be built around our current front 7? Because the only guy on that front 7 that must be protected is Glenn Dorsey--and we have no idea if he'll pan out at all. I have more faith than most people here in our defensive front line. Hali could be solid IMO if he would have a legit rushing partner. Dorsey, despite a sub-par rookie season would bounce back in his future years. It is very rare to draft a D-lineman and have him dominate the first year. Tank, under better coaching has very good potential. All we need for the front 4 would be a legit RE. As for the LBs I was never a big fan of drafting DJ (wanted Ware that year). And the rest last year were scrubs. That's where we should have concentrated our D rebuild.


Sure, we can ask Pioli to scout and recruit for a 4-3. If he's a good GM, he should know how to do it. But you're asking him to build a defense he doesn't believe in and you're expecting that he knows how to recruit 4-3 players as well as he does 3-4. Over time, I'm sure Pioli has developed a certain eye for finding the right players based on a 3-4 mentality. While some of the evaluations for these players might be the same, they are also quite different--case in point, the fact that Pioli gushes over Tyson Jackson while most traditional 4-3 coaches think it's a major reach.

So to answer your question, it's what we're good at and while there is obviously some cost and short-term pain involved to make the switch, it's well worth it for the long-term benefit we'll get from it.
Thanks for engaging in a debate cerebrally. A lot of posters here should learn from you.

Frankie
04-27-2009, 04:12 PM
These guys better be solid. I don't expect superstars but I expect each and everyone of them to contribute to a serious rapid surge towards being a SB contender.

Yet you expect all 7 picks to play like super stars and be great their rookie year.

No I don't.

chiefzilla1501
04-27-2009, 05:02 PM
When DV came in we had an old team. The time was ripe for a rebuild and a new system. The diff here is we are halfway through a rebuild with another system. Arguably half the young starting roster is in place. the timing to force a new system is terrible.

I have more faith than most people here in our defensive front line. Hali could be solid IMO if he would have a legit rushing partner. Dorsey, despite a sub-par rookie season would bounce back in his future years. It is very rare to draft a D-lineman and have him dominate the first year. Tank, under better coaching has very good potential. All we need for the front 4 would be a legit RE. As for the LBs I was never a big fan of drafting DJ (wanted Ware that year). And the rest last year were scrubs. That's where we should have concentrated our D rebuild.


Thanks for engaging in a debate cerebrally. A lot of posters here should learn from you.

I actually liked the potential of our interior D-line too. Believe me, I was one of the few that actually believed we were moving in the right direction after last season.

But the question you have to ask is if there is enough potential in the current pieces to justify the cost of not moving to a 3-4. Those costs are that we have no idea if Pioli is any good at evaluating to fill in a 4-3, and then there's my opinion that 3-4 defenses are a lot easier to build. If you know what you're doing. Yes, we've seen lots of 3-4's fail recently (i.e. SF and Cleveland), but I've also seen that the most consistently dominant defenses (Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England) run 3-4's and still to this day continue to run them extremely effectively. Even though these teams have gone through lots of changes at D-coordinator. And I think that's because 4-3 defenses require you to have playmakers at almost every position. I also think you need a genius/innovator at D-coordinator, like Monte Kiffin or Jim Johnson. In a 3-4, if you have a terrific defensive line, you can build around them. That's why every single year, you see the Steelers and Pats lose key players in their back 7 and never once miss a beat. Part of that is scouting, but it's too much of a coincidence that these teams happen to run a 3-4.

But here's the greater picture. Pioli isn't building for now. He's building for a team that he believes can win in 3 years and that he can hopefully keep replenishing with good pieces 10 years down the road. The reason the Pats are so successful is not because they draft a lot of stars, but because they build a roster that is 53-players deep with players that are great system players. Take them out of New England, and many of them won't be nearly as good. That's the system Pioli knows. We have no idea if he knows anything else. And what's great about it is, you don't need "windows" to make it work. Whereas 4-3 defenses often load up with talent to make a 5-year run, teams like Pitt, Baltimore, and NE have continually shown that they can keep the window open for 10 years by consistently drafting people they know how to draft.

I know the word "Patriot Way" is cliche, but I think the method also applies to Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Like it or hate it, teams that know how to run a 3-4 well have been very consistent over time. And I don't think that's a coincidence.

chiefzilla1501
04-27-2009, 05:06 PM
Unless our DE becomes the next Richard Seymour I think this draft really sucked.

I disagree. I thought it was a great analogy that if he becomes Russell Maryland, a difference making D-lineman who never got the credit he deserved, even though he made everyone on that defense better, then w had a decent draft. The Patriots are built around a core of solid players who fit well into their system. They are generally not built around a ton of superstars.

keg in kc
04-27-2009, 05:28 PM
My opinion of Scott Pioli will be based on the performance of this and the next two draft classes. And he probably deserves more time than that.

wild1
04-27-2009, 05:30 PM
another thread

OnTheWarpath58
04-27-2009, 05:32 PM
I disagree. I thought it was a great analogy that if he becomes Russell Maryland, a difference making D-lineman who never got the credit he deserved, even though he made everyone on that defense better, then w had a decent draft. The Patriots are built around a core of solid players who fit well into their system. They are generally not built around a ton of superstars.

Tom Brady
Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Richard Seymour
Vince Wilfork
Adalius Thomas
Tedy Bruschi
Jared Mayo
Asante Samuel

Not a superstar in the bunch.

JASONSAUTO
04-27-2009, 05:36 PM
Tom Brady
Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Richard Seymour
Vince Wilfork
Adalius Thomas
Tedy Bruschi
Jared Mayo
Asante Samuel

Not a superstar in the bunch.

i know this isnt what the thread is about, but how many were drafted by the pats? 5?

OnTheWarpath58
04-27-2009, 05:37 PM
i know this isnt what the thread is about, but how many were drafted by the pats? 5?

You build a team through the draft, FA and trades, correct?

JASONSAUTO
04-27-2009, 05:48 PM
You build a team through the draft, FA and trades, correct?

dont get defensive OTW my question had NOTHING to do with the conversation. just curious. couldnt remember if bruschi was drafted by the pats. if it is 5 they have got some good guys.

OnTheWarpath58
04-27-2009, 05:49 PM
dont get defensive OTW my question had NOTHING to do with the conversation. just curious. couldnt remember if bruschi was drafted by the pats. if it is 5 they have got some good guys.

Not getting defensive at all, just asking a question.

kstater
04-27-2009, 05:50 PM
No I don't.

If you're expecting all 7 draft picks to make a serious rapid surge to a SB in year one, they're going to have to be superstars, in fact, all 22 starters would have to be superstars.

JASONSAUTO
04-27-2009, 05:52 PM
Not getting defensive at all, just asking a question.

then i will answer(just making sure that you knew i didnt have ulterior motives)


yes thats the way to build a team, and IMO pioli has been pretty good at it

Frankie
04-27-2009, 06:21 PM
These guys better be solid. I don't expect superstars but I expect each and everyone of them to contribute to a serious rapid surge towards being a SB contender.

If you're expecting all 7 draft picks to make a serious rapid surge to a SB in year one, they're going to have to be superstars,

And,....

"Rapid rise" does not equate a single year.

RNR
04-27-2009, 06:22 PM
Dang Frankie I think you are being a tad unrealistic. It is going to take more than a draft for this guy to turn a 2-12 team into a competitive team much less a Superbowl contender. Comparing what he has to work with and what Dallas had to work with is silly. When Dallas was where the Chiefs are at now they pulled off the great train robbery with the Vikings.

Trading Walker gave them multiple picks and multiple players (who if cut from the roster provided more picks) allowing them to turn a also ran into a contender rather quickly. Dallas later was much like the Patriots are now a talent loaded team which afforded them to wheel and deal as they were looking for depth and not in need of filling several holes.

As far as Cassel I have a wait and see attitude towards him as he is a one year performer going back to high school and was in the perfect situation. He put up "good" numbers in a "great" offense. That said he is most likely at least as good as any QB on the roster and may turn out to be a solid QB. The Chiefs also got a solid starter in Vrabel (sp) for that #2.

That was a good trade even on the down side. Overall Pioli seems to be looking for the players that fit the scheme the Chiefs will be running. You are wondering why they are pushing the 3-4 well I would say that is the defense the coaching staff believes in and of course the GM is going to get players to fit that scheme. As a fan of a 2-12 team you had better be willing to give this guy a few years to accomplish a Superbowl run IMO

Molitoth
04-27-2009, 06:50 PM
Frankie is and idiot.

Pants
04-27-2009, 06:50 PM
And,....

"Rapid rise" does not equate a single year.

Define a SB contender. And even then, expecting all the picks to immediately start and contribute or otherwise Pioli is a failure? Laughable.

Molitoth
04-27-2009, 06:53 PM
Bottom line, Pioli will be either a god of football or a total loser in my eyes after next season


I'm going to quote this before you edit your post again.

You're giving Pioli 1 year to turn this franchise completely around with success. WTG Mr. Expectation.

RippedmyFlesh
04-27-2009, 07:29 PM
I also cannot understand why everything is forced toward a 3-4 or bust. Nothing's wrong with 4-3, especially if we already have accumulated some viable personnel for it. Why not use our picks toward improving on our 4-3 personnel and also address some glaring needs. And please don't give me the bullshit about we need EVERYTHING! That's a cop out and the first poster who plays that card will earn himself (or herself) a nice neg-rep. Fact is we seemed to run behind, throughout the draft, after our first pick. Maybe our lack of a 2nd caused that. But I do wonder if we had picked Maualuga for example with a 2nd whether we would have had a course adjustment and could have run into better prospects before they were picked ahead of us.


The Tampa 2 is dead for now.Even tampa isn't going to run it.
Jared Allen had enough talent to over come the horrible coaching enough to make us a middle of the road D.
You may want to follow the meandaring aimless ways of the past. I'll take a proven plan even if it means starting over.

GoHuge
04-27-2009, 07:38 PM
One draft and that's it? Carl had twenty and your gonna string this guy up over one if it's not gang busters? He'll be correcting years of subpar drafts under the past regime for a while...see Dayton Moore.

KcFanInGA
04-27-2009, 07:45 PM
Really? Neg rep for disagreeing with you? Better withhold my post.

el borracho
04-27-2009, 07:50 PM
Why wait? Just go psycho-bananacakes now and get it over with.

Frankie
04-27-2009, 08:46 PM
Frankie is and idiot.






You're giving Pioli 1 year to turn this franchise completely around with success. WTG Mr. Expectation.

No moron, I'm giving Pioli 1 year to prove to me these picks are viable stones to build a championship team. And since he is making major alterations without cause I want him to place the team in the exact same progress stage that this team would have been had he not used the picks for a system switch. IMO keeping 4-3 and using the picks well on a RDE, A center and a RT and a 4-3 Lb would have put this team in a position to at least give SD a good challenge for the division. That's where we should be next year. I want accelerated performance from these picks because I feel the switch is causing us a year of delay in our comeback.

Is it that difficult for some of you to read simple English and get it?

luv
04-27-2009, 09:16 PM
All of them? When's the last time a team had their draft picks all fan out well?

Molitoth
04-27-2009, 09:50 PM
No moron, I'm giving Pioli 1 year to prove to me these picks are viable stones to build a championship team. And since he is making major alterations without cause I want him to place the team in the exact same progress stage that this team would have been had he not used the picks for a system switch. IMO keeping 4-3 and using the picks well on a RDE, A center and a RT and a 4-3 Lb would have put this team in a position to at least give SD a good challenge for the division. That's where we should be next year. I want accelerated performance from these picks because I feel the switch is causing us a year of delay in our comeback.

Is it that difficult for some of you to read simple English and get it?

Funny, I thought winning the SuperBowl was the ultimate goal of an NFL team, not just winning the division this year in the shitty AFC west.

You should've applied for the Chiefs GM position when it came open, maybe you could be leading this team to a successful 8-8 division championship this year.

Oh, I forgot about the Non-cause to use a system switch. The 4-3 Cover 2 was working SOOOOO well.... all we were missing was a new Linebacker (Curry?).

You have dug yourself a giant hole in this thread, good luck getting out. I'm glad you're just an armchair QB posting shitty insight on a messageboard and we have a proven winner to GM the team.

Frankie
04-28-2009, 07:55 AM
Funny, I thought winning the SuperBowl was the ultimate goal of an NFL team, not just winning the division this year in the shitty AFC west. I did not mention winning the Superbowl in one year. Did I?


Oh, I forgot about the Non-cause to use a system switch. The 4-3 Cover 2 was working SOOOOO well.... all we were missing was a new Linebacker (Curry?). Marty's 4-3 worked rather well for a good long time. 4-3 does not have to be cover 2.

You have dug yourself a giant hole in this thread, good luck getting out. I'm glad you're just an armchair QB posting shitty insight on a messageboard and we have a proven winner to GM the team.
The hole was dug by the zealots of the Pioli religion. Not me. I made a good point and voiced a lrgitimate concern. I have listened to the opposing view, albeit only a few from "thinking" posters. But I stand by my view. I have to observe these draftees in action to say "Aha, I was wrong," at which point I will annoit Pioli the genius you are all accepting without question. Or, depending on the said performances, I will form a permanent opinion that Pioli is CP.2. Until then Pioli is not "a proven winner."

And btw:

We are all armchair QBs my friend. We are also fans. This fan has had it with wholesale changes to this team every few years.

MahiMike
04-28-2009, 08:49 AM
I agree (mostly) with this post. I was looking for fireworks and got sparklers. Hopefully, Pioli is right on Jackson and the "experts" are not. I think he was stuck at #3 and took his guy regardless of value. Also, since the rumor was that several teams were going 3-4, he made sure he got the best player for the system.

htismaqe
04-28-2009, 09:14 AM
Marty's 4-3 worked rather well for a good long time. 4-3 does not have to be cover 2.

Marty's 3-4 worked pretty good too.

Amazing what Derrick Thomas can do for a defense, huh?

Frankie
04-28-2009, 10:18 AM
Marty's 3-4 worked pretty good too.

Amazing what Derrick Thomas can do for a defense, huh?

Correct.

buddha
04-28-2009, 10:37 AM
The change to the 3-4 has to happen NOW. Pull the band-aid off all at once. What's the alternative? Let's wait until we get to 8-8 and THEN switch to a defense we don't have the players for? No. That really would be a stupid way to transition.

Personally, I don't think the scheme matters nearly as much as the personnel. However, if a staff STRONGLY believes in a particular scheme and they really know how to coach it, then they should use it. It's pretty simple.

Pioli and his front office are bright guys. I don't care if the Frankies of the world get that or not. At some point, who cares?

I will say this...some of the people on this board would rather be right than see the Chiefs succeed.

KC doesn't need immediate help at QB or punter. As for the other positions on the field, I don't see any future hall of famers, so upgrades are welcome.

wild1
04-28-2009, 10:40 AM
Funny, my opinion of Scott Pioli will be based on whether the team improves or not.

htismaqe
04-28-2009, 10:52 AM
The change to the 3-4 has to happen NOW. Pull the band-aid off all at once. What's the alternative? Let's wait until we get to 8-8 and THEN switch to a defense we don't have the players for? No. That really would be a stupid way to transition.

I agree.

chiefsfan1963
04-28-2009, 11:03 AM
CP had 20 years as GM pioli is just getting started. Give him a couple of drafts before you pull the plug. Belichek has been in NE for 10 plus seasons. It has taken him awhile to built what he has. Pioli will position KC in the same manner in 3 years.
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chiefsfan1963
04-28-2009, 11:13 AM
Pioli and company will find and develop talent where no one is expecting. He is positioning KC for a better draft in 2010. 3 picks on the 1st day. I will be surprised if we win more than 7 games this year with the new regime. But this would be progress given the last 2 seasons.
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Messier
04-28-2009, 11:18 AM
We're already into month 4 of his five year plan! Nothing has happened yet!

Frankie
04-28-2009, 11:22 AM
The change to the 3-4 has to happen NOW. Why? Why can't it be a gradual?

Pioli and his front office are bright guys. I don't care if the Frankies of the world get that or not. LMAO I'm happy you can testify to that. I think they are but I have no access to any airtight evidence like the result of IQ tests, Wonderlic test, or MENSA membership to support that. I'm glad you do.... You do, don't you? If not you are just having BLIND FAITH. I am too reasonable to have blind faith on unproven folks. ERGO,... I will question moves that do not make sense to me. No matter how many neg-reps the sheep give me.

I will say this...some of the people on this board would rather be right than see the Chiefs succeed.


I don't know your age, but chances are i've been a loyal fan of this team longer than you've been on this earth. As such I want nothing more than the return of the glory days for the Chiefs. I've had plenty of chances to jump ship. No i do not prefer to be right than see the Chiefs to succeed. Being right or earning approval of the flock here is not winning a Nobel prize. I don't care one way or another.

Just Passin' By
04-28-2009, 11:35 AM
Ok, someone please list for me the bonafide stars under 30 years of age that this team had when Pioli came aboard. That will allow us to compare that whopping list to the other teams in the pathetic AFCW to see where the starting points are for the various squads. We can worry about above average, average and below average players later.

htismaqe
04-28-2009, 11:41 AM
Why? Why can't it be a gradual?

Because it hampers the player acquisition process.

You're having to fill spots in TWO schemes instead of one, and some of the players you're acquiring would be throw-away in the new scheme anyway.

They're going to suck next year, might as well get something out of it and find out how many of the young guys fit the eventual defense rather than trying to cater to them.