PDA

View Full Version : Chiefs I think I understand the new defense.


Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 12:24 PM
Ok.
So, I've been confused like everyone else, but I think I now understand what we're going to be doing defensively and how the personnel will fit.

In what our version of the 3-4 will be:

the left outside linebacker will line up on the outside shoulder of the tackle to head up on the TE . This is more like a classic LDE in terms of responsibilities. Outside containment/pass rush type stuff. This is where Hali fits as an OLB. Basically pretty much the same as his role in the 4-3. He can play a little lighter if he likes, as he won't be singled up on the Tackle pretty much ever because:

the LDE will line up on the outside shoulder of the RG (B gap). His job is to shoot that gap between the guard and tackle, attacking the line of scrimmage, disrupting the blocking scheme. This is where you'd use Glenn Dorsey. The role is very similar to what a penetrating DT in a 4-3 scheme would be doing. This is what Haley said they'd do with Dorsey in the PC yesterday. Magee is probably a rotational player at both DE spots. So no more 'Dorsey is a bad fit at NT' talk. That's not the plan, because:

Ron Edwards and Tank Tyler are your NT. However, they're not going to be traditional NT's in the Ted Washington mold. They too will have one gap responsibility, usually shading to the strong side on the center's outside shoulder, (A gap) but not always. They don't need to be 350 pound space eaters, as they're not playing two gap. Personally, I think Tyler is the most promising guy at this spot physically.

Your RILB would be the player that is basically lined up on the center/LG gap (albeit a few yards off the ball) in what would be nearly identical to a classic MLB role (this is what Zach Thomas meant about playing MLB).

Your LILB (Derrick Johnson's spot) is your 'flow to the ball' playmaker. He's covered by the LOLB outside and the LDE right in front of him. On a running play up the gut, for example, the center would take on ONE of the ILB's, but not likely get both, so this guy will probably rack up a ton of tackles.

Your RDE (Jackson) will be on the LG's outside shoulder, with one gap responsibility there. If the guard can't handle him alone, they're in real trouble, because outside the tackle is the ROLB (or rush-backer). Outside containment responsibilities, yes-and rush the passer. This is what Vrabel fits in. he's only a year removed from double digit sacks, and that's because he was injured. He needs only to require the Tackle's full attention to be successful, because that means the LDE has got a single man to beat. The whole point of a 6-5 295 monster DE with long arms is that you HAVE to double him. So choose your poison.

Safeties will play a more prominent role in run support than they did in cover 2 (at least our version, in which they were basically non-existant) and corners will probably play some man. I'm not worried about our secondary, actually, I feel pretty good about it and not too much is different for them.

I think I'm pretty accurate about the responsibilities and the personnel I named is based on the interviews with Pioli and/or Haley.

Did I get it right?

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 12:29 PM
Makes sense to me but I'm not really well educated X's and O's wise.

How much pass coverage responsibility do the LB's have in this system? Just LILB?

CupidStunt
04-27-2009, 12:29 PM
Good post. Very accurate. Shame it'll be torn down by idiots.

Dave Lane
04-27-2009, 12:30 PM
Thats pretty damn close. Good post

Chiefnj2
04-27-2009, 12:30 PM
You think they are going to play a 34 one gap defense?

Basileus777
04-27-2009, 12:31 PM
That sounds like the 4-3 under defense that has been talked about.

http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/43_under_blitz_schemes.html

Chiefnj2
04-27-2009, 12:34 PM
That sounds like the 4-3 under defense that has been talked about.

http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/43_under_blitz_schemes.html

With the 4-3 under your RDE is your pass rusher. I think they said Jackson would be the RDE. It wouldn't make much sense to play in at that position in a 4-3 because he isn't much of a pass rusher.

Basileus777
04-27-2009, 12:38 PM
With the 4-3 under your RDE is your pass rusher. I think they said Jackson would be the RDE. It wouldn't make much sense to play in at that position in a 4-3 because he isn't much of a pass rusher.

Jackson would be the LDE (on the closed side of the field) in that scheme which plays the 5-tech.

"The defensive end to the tight end side is responsible for controlling the C gap. He is an inside-foot to outside-foot alignment on the offensive tackle he is lining up against. If the tackle blocks inside then the defensive end has to close down with him in keep relative control of the C gap."

Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 12:39 PM
You think they are going to play a 34 one gap defense?

yeah, basically. I think that's what they mean by it being a 'hybrid'.

but I don't think they'll play it EXCLUSIVELY. I think there'll be some 4-3 and of course, standard nickel and dime stuff.

bandwagonjumper
04-27-2009, 12:39 PM
Great post. I'm by no means a x's and o's type guy but it sounded good.

Mr. Krab
04-27-2009, 12:40 PM
Wasn't a detailed post about our defense already posted?

bevischief
04-27-2009, 12:41 PM
Very good. Fits the personnel.

Chiefnj2
04-27-2009, 12:42 PM
Jackson would be the LDE (on the closed side of the field) in that scheme which plays the 5-tech.

"The defensive end to the tight end side is responsible for controlling the C gap. He is an inside-foot to outside-foot alignment on the offensive tackle he is lining up against. If the tackle blocks inside then the defensive end has to close down with him in keep relative control of the C gap."

I thought Pioli said he wanted Jackson on the open side.

dirk digler
04-27-2009, 12:43 PM
Great post Meck

htismaqe
04-27-2009, 12:43 PM
You think they are going to play a 34 one gap defense?

They're going to use parts of it, yes.

Chiefnj2
04-27-2009, 12:44 PM
They're going to use parts of it, yes.

Aren't the Pats a 2 gap?

Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 12:44 PM
Makes sense to me but I'm not really well educated X's and O's wise.

How much pass coverage responsibility do the LB's have in this system? Just LILB?

I think it would depend on coverage calls, but I wouldn't think the OLB's would have anything other than maybe swing pass-type responsibilities unless it was some sort of zone blitz. ILB's probably would have more in the short crossing type lanes.

RJ
04-27-2009, 12:44 PM
My left or your left?

Excellent post, thanks for sharing.

keg in kc
04-27-2009, 12:45 PM
I thought Pioli said he wanted Jackson on the open side.He did, or rather Haley did.

Basileus777
04-27-2009, 12:46 PM
I thought Pioli said he wanted Jackson on the open side.

You are right, Haley did say that.

CupidStunt
04-27-2009, 12:49 PM
Aren't the Pats a 2 gap?

Yes, but only because they managed to get the personnel for it early on. Washington and then Wilfork, Seymour, Warren, etc. KC has Jackson but Dorsey would not dominate as a two-gapper and neither Tank or Edwards are good enough to play head-up over the center.

Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 12:49 PM
Yeah, Haley indicated that he wanted Jackson on the weak-side.

I've seen no detailed outline of 'our' defense; I did see the details of the 4-3 under defense that USC runs, and I found it helpful in understanding how it would translate to a 30 front with our personnel if that's what you're referring to...dunno. I am just thinking out loud here, and basing it on the Pioli/Haley interviews with a little common sense thrown in. (i.e.-of course Hali is not going to be covering RB's downfield, that'd be dumb! so what WOULD he be suitable for?)etc.

Rain Man
04-27-2009, 12:50 PM
Nice post. I think I get it.

Though I'd be pulling my guards and running left a lot.

Chiefnj2
04-27-2009, 12:51 PM
You are right, Haley did say that.

Right, so what Meck is describing is not like the 4-3 under. In the 4-3 under, the RDE is lined up outside the LOT. Meck is describing a system where Jackson would be in the B gap between the guard and tackle.

Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 12:51 PM
Pats play a 2 gap, Dallas plays basically a one gap, if I remember correctly...as does Arizona basically, in their hybrid-which I think works pretty much like my outline.

again, I could be wrong, this is just what I think they're talking about doing.

Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 12:55 PM
Nice post. I think I get it.

Though I'd be pulling my guards and running left a lot.

well, that's where the veteran MLB would be important. If your defense is smart and pursuit oriented, they should be able to string out that sweep. Also, if your RDE gets penetration, it'll clog up any sort of pulling scheme.

It's not flawless, but I think that's the idea.

jAZ
04-27-2009, 12:58 PM
Outstanding post. Wish I knew enough to contribute to this discussion, but it's over my head. But it sounds good to me.

Chiefnj2
04-27-2009, 01:02 PM
They're going to use parts of it, yes.

I have no idea what KC is going to run. If Dallas plays a 1 gap scheme, and you think KC is going to play a similar scheme, why did Zach Thomas talk about getting away from Dallas' scheme where he wasn't that comfortable.

Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 01:04 PM
well, I think it's helpful (maybe even crucial) to stop thinking of people as a position (as in Glenn Dorsey is a DT, and DT=NT or Tamba Hali is a DE, and not suited to be a LB) and think in terms of what they will be asked to DO, since the 3-4 is SO different than the 4-3, and this particular 3-4 is even more so. We're not used to it, since we haven't run it since...when? Cowher? With Saleamua at NT maybe? I forget.

Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 01:06 PM
I have no idea what KC is going to run. If Dallas plays a 1 gap scheme, and you think KC is going to play a similar scheme, why did Zach Thomas talk about getting away from Dallas' scheme where he wasn't that comfortable.


I think that Zach was playing the other LB spot, with different responsibilities. I think in THIS hybrid, that spot would look almost exactly like a MLB spot in a 4-3, in that you'd be looking at the center basically uncovered when you line up. Hence, his comments about getting back to playing MLB.

again, this is all just my theory.

Chiefnj2
04-27-2009, 01:08 PM
I think that Zach was playing the other LB spot, with different responsibilities. I think in THIS hybrid, that spot would look almost exactly like a MLB spot in a 4-3, in that you'd be looking at the center basically uncovered when you line up. Hence, his comments about getting back to playing MLB.

again, this is all just my theory.

Again, I have no idea what they are going to run, but if it is the same as the Cards 4-3 under, then, IMHO, taking Jackson at #3 was a horrible mistake.

googlegoogle
04-27-2009, 01:11 PM
I heard rumor on the other board that Derrick Johnson will lose his starting job. Pioli doesn't like him.

Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 01:13 PM
Again, I have no idea what they are going to run, but if it is the same as the Cards 4-3 under, then, IMHO, taking Jackson at #3 was a horrible mistake.

well, I don't think it IS a 4-3 under. I think it's more like a one gap 3-4.

and while I know it's great fun to assume that the new gm and coach are fools and that we all know better how to assemble and run the team, I don't think they're stupid and would target a player that is a horrible fit for the new defense they're drafting him to play in...and then repeat that horrible mistake in the 3rd round with a very similar player.

not meaning to be snarky, I just don't think a 4-3 is the idea here.

Wa-Z
04-27-2009, 01:14 PM
I heard rumor on the other board that Derrick Johnson will lose his starting job. Pioli doesn't like him.

No board is more credible than chiefsplanet!!

htismaqe
04-27-2009, 01:15 PM
TheGuardian has pretty much nailed the defensive scheme, there's a series of posts by him over the past week that spell it out in great detail.

htismaqe
04-27-2009, 01:16 PM
I have no idea what KC is going to run. If Dallas plays a 1 gap scheme, and you think KC is going to play a similar scheme, why did Zach Thomas talk about getting away from Dallas' scheme where he wasn't that comfortable.

In Dallas' scheme, similar to what we ran in the early 90's, the ILB's have responsbilities that nearly mirror the MLB and WLB spots in a traditional 4-3. Thomas' issue wasn't with the 3-4 as much as it was that he was playing the "weakside" ILB instead of the "middle" ILB.

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 01:18 PM
I heard rumor on the other board that Derrick Johnson will lose his starting job. Pioli doesn't like him.

That would be a waste of talent on a team that is short on it.

Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 01:20 PM
TheGuardian has pretty much nailed the defensive scheme, there's a series of posts by him over the past week that spell it out in great detail.

oh, that's right. Only the personnel was different. Dorsey is being looked at "outside" according to Haley. And of course, pre-draft we didn't know about Jackson or Magee. and Haley indicated that Tyler and Edwards are at NT.

I think what Guardian had is pretty much what i'm thinking it'll be too...

Chiefnj2
04-27-2009, 01:20 PM
TheGuardian has pretty much nailed the defensive scheme, there's a series of posts by him over the past week that spell it out in great detail.

I thought he talked about the 4-3 under.

Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 01:22 PM
I thought he talked about the 4-3 under.

or maybe that was it. I don't remember.

htismaqe
04-27-2009, 01:34 PM
I thought he talked about the 4-3 under.

He explained the 4-3 under, but I think he's looking for us to run more of a mix of 1-gap and 2-gap up front. Usually your entire front would run one of the other, but it looks like we might be using both, at the same time, which would be rather unconventional.

John_Wayne
04-27-2009, 01:36 PM
But where is Napoleon Harris and Kendrell Bell going to play??!! Come on! Don't dodge the hard questions.

kysirsoze
04-27-2009, 01:43 PM
But where is Napoleon Harris and Kendrell Bell going to play??!! Come on! Don't dodge the hard questions.

Bell would have done much better if he had come along now rather than when he did, right? Wouldn't he have fit in that ROLB pass rushing spot pretty well? Talk about a guy being used for something that he wasn't equipped to do.

(Yes I know it was a sarcastic question.:))

cdcox
04-27-2009, 01:58 PM
I have a hard time seeing Hali lined up against a TE. You can get SS help on the deeper routes, but Hali against a TE is a complete mismatch in the short passing game.

Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 02:04 PM
I don't think that'd be his job, unless as a zone blitz assignment. I think his job would on a passing down would be to hit the TE, preventing a clean release, and rush the QB. the actual coverage would fall to the ILB and/or SS.

again, I don't know, I'm speculating. I am assuming that Pioli and Haley know football, and I can't imagine that they think Hali is going to be a traditional OLB. I don't think that's the planned responsibility.

Chris Meck
04-27-2009, 06:58 PM
I'm bumping this back to the front page as there are new posts about NT's, and why we didn't draft one, etc. and I think there was some pretty good info passed around here. Not by me neccessarily, but in general.

as you were.

booger
04-27-2009, 08:08 PM
Scheme flexibility

Do the Cardinals run a 3-4 or 4-3 defense? The answer is, well, yes

By Eric Edholm
Jan. 30, 2009


TAMPA, Fla. — Cardinals LB coach Bill Davis leaned back in his seat, exhaled and tried to remember a conversation he had five years and two jobs ago.

“I have been so many places, you tend to forget what you did when and when things happened,” Davis said. “It all blends together.”

Indeed. In 17 NFL seasons, Davis has worked for eight clubs and has run or been a part of just about every kind of defensive scheme there is. He has been around long enough to have seen the 3-4 defense go out of style and subsequently come back as, what Steelers offensive coordinator Bruce Arians calls it, “the vogue defense right now,” including his own team’s superior unit.


But do the Cardinals run a 3-4 also? The answer might surprise you.
“Everybody puts us in that 3-4 category, but what we are is an ‘under’ front, a 4-3 ‘under’ defense,” Davis explains. “The ‘under’ is almost a 3-4. As 3-4 [defenses] go, it’s not really what we do here.”

An “under” defense slants toward the tight end. Likewise, an “over” front shifts away from the tight end. As he explains the workings of the Cardinals’ defense, Davis starts talking, then does as any good coach or teacher would: He grabs a pen and paper. “Well, here, let me show you what I mean …”

Pretty soon, he’s scratching out the defensive scheme on paper, the same one the Cardinals will use to try to stop the Steelers on Sunday. He also, for comparison, sketches out the traditional 3-4 defense and the 4-3 “even” front, both of which he has taught and coached in the NFL.

“When you’re talking about the 3-4 team, you have the three D-linemen,” Davis said. “Then you have [two] outside ’backers; then [the inside linebackers] bubble on the guards.”

Bubbling, in defensive terms, is to line up across from an uncovered offensive lineman. In a 3-4, it’s the two offensive guards that most often don’t have a defensive lineman in front of them. The two defensive ends are lined up in five-techniques, or on the outside shoulder of the offensive tackles. The nose tackle is head up across from the center.

Said Davis: “These guys [defensive linemen] are supposed to two-gap, and these outside [linebackers] are interchangeable rush-or-pass guys. And that’s the dynamic of the 3-4.”

But in the 4-3 “under” front, like the Cardinals use as their base defense, which looks similar to the 3-4 to the naked eye, the biggest difference is in the outside linebackers. The strong-side linebacker is still outside the tight end. But the other outside guy — the Cardinals call this player their “Predator” — is almost always rushing the passer, although the Cards will occasionally drop him into coverage to mix things up. Other differences: The nose tackle shades to the A-gap (in between the center and guard) on the tight end side, and the end on that side moves between the tackle and tight end.

Davis explained that the 3-4 defense creates the most confusion for the offense in terms of which outside linebacker is doing what, and the standard 4-3 offers the least unpredictability. The Cardinals’ 4-3 “under” scheme is somewhere in between the two in terms of causing the offense to guess who is rushing and who is dropping.

The only player in the 4-3 “under” who is left uncovered is the “Mike,” or middle linebacker. In the Cardinals’ scheme, that’s usually Gerald Hayes. “That’s my thumper, more of a thick guy,” Davis said, circling the capital M on his piece of paper. “In the ‘over’ front, when I was in Atlanta [2001 to 2003], we put Keith Brooking — we were actually playing an even scheme, too – but we stacked Keith right behind the three [technique] and he got to run and make plays and use his athleticism, and he made his first Pro Bowl playing behind the three.”

But in this scheme Hayes, listed at 249 pounds (“or a little less than that,” he admits with a wink and a smile), is the only uncovered linebacker. That means he often will be taking on 300-pound guards head on. On Sunday, it could be Steelers ORG Darnell Stapleton and his 305 pounds that will meet Hayes more than once. “You don’t think about it,” Hayes says, “you just do it. You can’t worry about taking those guys on. It comes with the territory.”

Antonio Smith and Darnell Dockett are the ends in this system, backed up by rookies Kenny Iwabema and Calais Campbell. Bryan Robinson and Gabe Watson are the nose tackles. Chike Okeafor is the primary strong-side linebacker, now that Clark Haggans is out with an injury.

Karlos Dansby is the weak-side linebacker. The way the defense is set up, he has a nice protective shield to keep potential blockers at bay. “What we’ve done with Karlos is put him behind a three-technique, so basically — we call these anchor points — he’s got a wall in front of him,” Davis said. “So he can run and use his athleticism. The center can’t get him because the nose is on him. The guard can’t get him because the end is on him. And the tackle can’t get him because the predator is on him. So this is your athlete that can run, go cover ground and make plays.”

The “Predator” position is manned by Bertrand Berry and Travis LaBoy, assuming LaBoy is healthy enough to play Sunday. Both guys really are defensive ends by trade, but Davis considers them his guys.

“At the end of the day, I have these guys [the “Predators”] in my meeting room, so that puts us closer to this scheme [the 4-3 under],” he said. “And I put them in a two-point stance. This is the key right here: This guy right here [the three-technique weakside end] almost makes us have to rush the passer. As soon as you move him inside [from a five-technique], his responsibility in this is to play this very same gap.”

Davis has coached this scheme with the Giants and 49ers, but this is the first time in a while one of his defenses has used it as their base grouping. He has picked up pieces of different schemes from a bunch of different schools around the league and likes the flexibility of what he and other defenses have discovered in the 4-3 “under” formation.

“The Belichicks, [Dom] Capers, the [Bill] Parcells, that whole group … they play the ‘under’ front most of the time, but they move to it,” Davis said. [B]“So are we a 3-4? Almost.”

It just depends on how you look at it. Or under it.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/NFC/NFC+West/Arizona/Features/2008/wwhi013009.htm

I keep refering back at this article and think it comes in handy.

BTW, Good post/thread Chris.

Ralphy Boy
04-27-2009, 08:13 PM
the left outside linebacker will line up on the outside shoulder of the tackle to head up on the TE . This is more like a classic LDE in terms of responsibilities. Outside containment/pass rush type stuff. This is where Hali fits as an OLB. Basically pretty much the same as his role in the 4-3. He can play a little lighter if he likes, as he won't be singled up on the Tackle pretty much ever because:


I thought this part was interesting, so I went back and found Hali's draft info from 2006 and saw this quote from
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2006/draft/players/4660.html
Offers possibilities as a pass-rushing end in a conventional defense or could stand up over tackle in a 34.

Much like Merriman in terms of position and size only. Merriman was quite a bit quicker coming out of college with a 4.65 40 compared to 4.75 on Hali. There are similarities in terms of size. Hali 6'3" 275, Merriman 6'4" 272.

Wishful thinking on my part.

Interestingly, CNNSI had Merriman graded as a 4.2 and Hali as a 4.19.

booger
04-27-2009, 08:24 PM
I also think back to Todd Bowles, the asst. HC/DB coach in Miami, who was a hot HC candidate and many on here thought highly of him as a DC candidate.

When he interviewed in Detroit for the head job he mentioned that he was a 34 guy but didn't see a problem with a potential scheme change in detroit because they could always ease into things by going with a hybrid D in the first year or two.

That coming from a Parcells guy who like most all the parcells guys, like the 34.

Like pendergast did the first 2 seasons under Whiz in AZ, I see him doing the same here. After that who knows?

It's just to big of an adjustment to attempt a true/Steeler 34 and expect to compete if completely changing instead of gradually adjusting things.

DRU
04-27-2009, 08:41 PM
Outside containment responsibilities,

Did I get it right?

Yup, and I'm glad you did. All of those dumb ass TV announcers drive me crazy saying "outside contain."

OctoberFart
04-27-2009, 08:43 PM
You think they are going to play a 34 one gap defense?

It's really a 50 4-3 defense ran with 3-4 personel. It is traditionally used when a team transitions to a full blown 3-4 like NE and is much easier to mask weaknesses. They did the same thing in NE and Balt when they transitioned.

Mr. Kotter
04-27-2009, 09:09 PM
It's really a 50 4-3 defense ran with 3-4 personel. It is traditionally used when a team transitions to a full blown 3-4 like NE and is much easier to mask weaknesses. They did the same thing in NE and Balt when they transitioned.

:spock:

That may be your FIRST semi-intelligent post I've seen you make here.

:eek:

T-post Tom
04-27-2009, 11:14 PM
Nice post.