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kcbubb
04-28-2009, 09:50 AM
With the selection of Tyson Jackson and Alex Magee, what does the depth chart for Chiefs defensive line look like? I know it's just best guesses this time of year, but give it your best shot. Also, how many d-lineman do they dress in the 3-4, and which lineman do you think they dress on gameday? And is it possible that they plan to use Turk McBride at OLB with Hali?

Yahoo has the depth chart listed as (obviously without Jackson and Magee):

DLE Turk McBride Wallace Gilberry
NT Tank Tyler Ron Edwards T.J. Jackson
DRE Glenn Dorsey Alfonso Boone Derek Lokey

bdeg
04-28-2009, 09:57 AM
LE Jackson Boone Turk
Tank Edwards
RE Dorsey Magee Turk

I'm thinking the RE will often line up in the gap, I'd guess Turk will mostly rotate in there.

nychief
04-28-2009, 10:01 AM
Turk is a LBer now.

Buehler445
04-28-2009, 10:03 AM
Turk is a LBer now.

:spock:

He's a tweener DT DE in the 4-3.
Posted via Mobile Device

bdeg
04-28-2009, 10:03 AM
not gonna happen. one thread i read boone playing olb.

slow guys don't play linebacker. these are linemen

nychief
04-28-2009, 10:05 AM
both Hali and McBride lined up at Linebacker at the most recent mini-camp... we'll see, but they are trying to convert him, like it or not.

Chiefnj2
04-28-2009, 10:05 AM
According to Bob Gretz, when the media was allowed to watch individual drills McBride was working with the LBs.

LE (tight end side) Dorsey/Magee
NT - Boone/Tyler
RE (open side) Jackson/ maybe Johnson on passing downs

OLBS: Hali, McBride, Vrabel
ILBs: DJ, Thomas

bdeg
04-28-2009, 10:10 AM
Is Jackson a better pass rusher than Dorsey? or why do you have him at RE?

Chiefnj2
04-28-2009, 10:11 AM
Is Jackson a better pass rusher than Dorsey? or why do you have him at RE?

Probably since he played DE at LSU.

bdeg
04-28-2009, 10:14 AM
but isn't dorsey more explosive?

kcbubb
04-28-2009, 10:17 AM
I guess if Matt Roth can do it for the fins at 6'4" 275 then McBride can do it too. I never thought Roth could make the transition to OLB from DE. I didn't think he was fast or athletic enough to do it.

If Hali and McBride can play OLB, I will feel much better about this draft.

bdeg
04-28-2009, 10:20 AM
Also, how many d-lineman do they dress in the 3-4, and which lineman do you think they dress on gameday?
According to this
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/230422-45-man-active-roster.html

it looks like we'll probably dress 6 linemen, seeing as how we need extra depth without their quality

Dorsey
Tank
Jackson
Magee
Turk
Boone/Edwards
Didn't realize this would be a tough call, if we want Edwards to back up NT Boone could be getting the axe.

bdeg
04-28-2009, 10:23 AM
I guess if Matt Roth can do it for the fins at 6'4" 275 then McBride can do it too. I never thought Roth could make the transition to OLB from DE. I didn't think he was fast or athletic enough to do it.

If Hali and McBride can play OLB, I will feel much better about this draft.

True, he's a good exception. I'd be surprised if Turk is still in the 270's, although that might be right.

Pestilence
04-28-2009, 10:23 AM
Jackson, Magee, McBride

Tyler, Edwards

Dorsey, Boone

Mr. Krab
04-28-2009, 10:24 AM
Rushbacker - Vrabel,McBride,Hali (honestly don't see how Mcbride,Hali are gonna work)
RDE - Dorsey,McGee,Boone
NT - Tyler, Edwards
LDE - Jackson,Mcbride,Boone,Johnson

For some reason i thought Brian Johnson would be tried out at rushbacker. I guess not.

kcbubb
04-28-2009, 10:24 AM
I'm thinking....

LE (tight end side) Dorsey/Magee
NT - Tyler/Edwards
RE (open side) Jackson/ Boone

OLBS: Hali, Vrabel, McBride, Brian Johnson
ILBs: DJ, Thomas, Beisel, Williams

that's 14 players, will they dress that many??? surely not....

htismaqe
04-28-2009, 10:25 AM
I guess if Matt Roth can do it for the fins at 6'4" 275 then McBride can do it too. I never thought Roth could make the transition to OLB from DE. I didn't think he was fast or athletic enough to do it.

If Hali and McBride can play OLB, I will feel much better about this draft.

McBride played MUCH bigger than Roth last season. I'm guessing he was in the 290-295 range.

And Matt Roth started at OLB before moving to DE at Iowa.

McBride was a DEFENSIVE TACKLE.

If he's not playing DE in the 3-4 for this team, he might as well be cut.

bdeg
04-28-2009, 10:27 AM
Rushbacker - Vrabel,McBride,Hali (honestly don't see how Mcbride,Hali are gonna work)
RDE - Dorsey,McGee,Boone
NT - Tyler, Edwards
LDE - Jackson,Mcbride,Boone,Johnson

For some reason i thought Brian Johnson would be tried out at rushbacker. I guess not.

johnston, and why not?

Mr. Krab
04-28-2009, 10:27 AM
We got people flip-floping Right side/Left side. I always look at the Defensive line from Safeties point of view.

ROLB/Rushbacker
RDE
NT
LDE

Chiefnj2
04-28-2009, 10:30 AM
In interviews this past weekend Haley/Pioli both said and/or gave clues as to some of the lineup.

They said Jackson would be on the open side (RDE) and move inside on passing situations.
They said Boone and Tyler had experience playing NT.
They said they saw Dorsey on the outside to begin with. I'm assuming LDE since they used the #3 pick on Jackson.

Mr. Krab
04-28-2009, 10:30 AM
johnston, and why not?
Have you heard something about him at rushbacker? I thought he would but they have talk about Hali and Mcbride being used at LB/Rushbacker but not Johnston. Some players are listed at linebacker but Johnston is listed at DE.

:shrug:

bdeg
04-28-2009, 10:31 AM
I'd keep Jackson head up on the RT. He should be a better run stopper than Dorsey with his length. Use Dorsey to shoot gaps on the other side. Bring Magee in to do a little of both? I've heard from different sources that he's best at either one.

Mr. Arrowhead
04-28-2009, 10:31 AM
seeing Turk play OLB in the 3-4 defense is going to be the funniest shit i will ever see.

Mr. Krab
04-28-2009, 10:32 AM
They said Jackson would be on the open side (RDE) and move inside on passing situations
This makes no sense to me. I thought Jackson was a pure 3-4 DE which means he should be put on the backside DE and just stay there. Dorsey is the guy who is a undertackle, which means he should be the RDE and slide inside to DT as the OLB steps up.

bdeg
04-28-2009, 10:33 AM
Have you heard something about him at rushbacker? I thought he would but they have talk about Hali and Mcbride being used at LB/Rushbacker but not Johnston. Some players are listed at linebacker but Johnston is listed at DE.

:shrug:

He may come in at DE on forced passing downs, but his best fit is OLB. People aren't talking about him because they don't know about him, he's not one of our highly drafted big name players.

Mr. Krab
04-28-2009, 10:35 AM
He may come in at DE on forced passing downs, but his best fit is OLB. People aren't talking about him because they don't know about him, he's not one of our highly drafted big name players.
I was referring to the Chiefs brass talking about Hali and Mcbride being tried at DE/OLB, not fans. I would think that Johnston would have a better chance at DE/OLB than McBride. Imo McBride should be a backside DE in a 3-4.

boogblaster
04-28-2009, 10:35 AM
To play the 3-4 right u have to have plenty of big DL to rotate and keep fresh ...

talastan
04-28-2009, 10:40 AM
Jackson - Tank - Dorsey
Hali - DJ - Thomas - McBride/Vrabel (passing downs)

Flowers - Pollard - Morgan/Page - Carr

JMO on the starting lineup for our D.

htismaqe
04-28-2009, 10:42 AM
In interviews this past weekend Haley/Pioli both said and/or gave clues as to some of the lineup.

They said Jackson would be on the open side (RDE) and move inside on passing situations.
They said Boone and Tyler had experience playing NT.
They said they saw Dorsey on the outside to begin with. I'm assuming LDE since they used the #3 pick on Jackson.

Well, in most 3-4 defenses, the side without the OLB is the "open" side and would play the 5-technique.

It's very possible they're going to play Dorsey at a 3-technique inside the rushbacker, technically making him a DE on the "outside" even though his responsibility would be similar to a 4-3 undertackle.

Mr. Krab
04-28-2009, 10:42 AM
Jackson - Tank - Dorsey
Hali - DJ - Thomas - McBride/Vrabel (passing downs)

Flowers - Pollard - Morgan/Page - Carr

JMO on the starting lineup for our D.
So Hali is gonna be our backside OLB?

htismaqe
04-28-2009, 10:43 AM
Imo McBride should be a backside DE in a 3-4.

I agree. He's not a 4-3 DE and he's DEFINITELY not a 3-4 OLB.

Mr. Krab
04-28-2009, 10:43 AM
Well, in most 3-4 defenses, the side without the OLB is the "open" side and would play the 5-technique.

It's very possible they're going to play Dorsey at a 3-technique inside the rushbacker, technically making him a DE on the "outside" even though his responsibility would be similar to a 4-3 undertackle.
This

kcbubb
04-28-2009, 10:44 AM
Jackson - Tank - Dorsey
Hali - DJ - Thomas - McBride/Vrabel (passing downs)

Flowers - Pollard - Morgan/Page - Carr

JMO on the starting lineup for our D.

so, you think McBride and Hali start opposite of each other??? hmmm..... that would be interesting... if they blitz 5, that's a lot of beef to block. Tank, Dorsey, Jackson, Hali and McBride.

talastan
04-28-2009, 10:46 AM
So Hali is gonna be our backside OLB?

Not too familar with the 3-4 myself, but it would be less of a shift I think being on the same side he's played for most of his NFL career. He has experience shedding TE's blocks IMO. He's not tremendous at it, but a workable stop gap till we get someone else in. :shrug:

Balto
04-28-2009, 11:03 AM
No question about this:

5-Tech DE: Jackson, Magee

NT: Tank, Edwards

3-Tech DE: Dorsey, Magee

I'd watch for Boone and McBride getting cut or traded in a package deal.

L.A. Chieffan
04-28-2009, 11:09 AM
as long as kumrie is still there it really doesnt matter

Fish
04-28-2009, 11:11 AM
as long as kumrie is still there it really doesnt matter

I'm terrified that you're right.....

movinbones
04-28-2009, 11:20 AM
This is shaping up to be more of a 5-2 Defense than a 3-4.

htismaqe
04-28-2009, 11:22 AM
No question about this:

5-Tech DE: Jackson, Magee

NT: Tank, Edwards

3-Tech DE: Dorsey, Magee

I'd watch for Boone and McBride getting cut or traded in a package deal.

Sounded good until you suggested trading Boone and McBride.

NOBODY would want them. NOBODY.

EyePod
04-28-2009, 11:24 AM
Well, at least after this draft I feel better about our D-Line. It definitely has improved.

Direckshun
04-28-2009, 11:31 AM
Boone and McBride both fit the 3-4 DE mold. There's no reason to try out a 280 lbs defensive tackle at OLB.

Put them both at DE and have them provide us some depth. If either of them can get used to the scheme, we've got depth.

Mr. Krab
04-28-2009, 11:34 AM
Not too familar with the 3-4 myself, but it would be less of a shift I think being on the same side he's played for most of his NFL career. He has experience shedding TE's blocks IMO. He's not tremendous at it, but a workable stop gap till we get someone else in. :shrug:
It might be the same side but a OLB job is almost completely different unless they play the OLB/DE rushbacker position in a 3-4.

You might want to read this thread, it has information about the defensive.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=204166

bdeg
04-28-2009, 11:52 AM
So what's the word on Magee, you guys think we will use him more in the Jackson or Dorsey role? here's his nfldc report

Strengths:
Good size and bulk with long arms...Above average athleticism...Nice speed and quickness...Uses his hands well...Pretty good strength...Can get upfield and penetrate...Excellent range and is good in pursuit...A reliable tackler...Has a decent motor..Relatively durable...Offers some positional versatility...Has a lot of experience versus top competition.

Weaknesses:
Way too inconsistent...Marginal instincts and awareness...Has trouble getting off blocks...Needs to use better leverage...Can be eliminated by double-teams... Average against the run ...Was not overly productive.

Notes:
Also being looked at as a five-technique by 3-4 teams...Played out of position at defensive end as a senior...Moved back inside at the Senior Bowl and looked awfully impressive...An underachiever who has the tools you look for but for one reason or another he doesn't always play up to them...Could excel as a three-technique...

I'd guess next year he'll sub Dorsey's spot but not be asked to penetrate all the time. Maybe a little more 5-tech in future years?

Iowanian
04-28-2009, 11:54 AM
I think they'll try McBride at OLB in this defense, but he'll end up cut, playing the Under Tackle for a 4-3 D where he should have been from the beginning instead of pretending to be a DE.

CoMoChief
04-28-2009, 11:55 AM
This defense will suck

bowener
04-28-2009, 11:56 AM
Have you heard something about him at rushbacker? I thought he would but they have talk about Hali and Mcbride being used at LB/Rushbacker but not Johnston. Some players are listed at linebacker but Johnston is listed at DE.

:shrug:

Maybe they feel he can put on another 10-15 pounds and still be pretty quick as a DE still. He would end up around 6'4" and 280-285lbs.

Or, maybe they know nothing about him yet since there was little tape on him from last year, and probably little on him from college as well.

bowener
04-28-2009, 11:58 AM
Not too familar with the 3-4 myself, but it would be less of a shift I think being on the same side he's played for most of his NFL career. He has experience shedding TE's blocks IMO. He's not tremendous at it, but a workable stop gap till we get someone else in. :shrug:

I thought the understanding was that we are not a 3-4, but a 4-3 "under", and apparently, yes, there is a difference.

Somebody posted an article in the thread covering this (43 under) from an interview before the Cards/Pitt superbowl. Very good read, go read that.

bdeg
04-28-2009, 11:58 AM
Maybe they feel he can put on another 10-15 pounds and still be pretty quick as a DE still. He would end up around 6'4" and 280-285lbs.

Or, maybe they know nothing about him yet since there was little tape on him from last year, and probably little on him from college as well.

his combine #'s are all they'd need to see he's a rush backer.

i'm pissed cbs absorbed nfldraftscout.com that site used to have archives with combine and proday #'s for all prospects past and present, but it is no more

but I was able to dig this up

Measuring in at 6-foot-5, 274 pounds, Johnston ran his first 40-yard dash in an eye-popping 4.66 seconds. His slowest time of the day was 4.70, which is still faster than Johnston’s best time a year ago. Johnston’s 40-yard dash time during his pro day, would have been the fourth best at the recent NFL Scouting Combine for defensive ends, and the best for any lineman weighing more than 260 pounds.

His most impressive stat from the 40-yard dash came with a very strong 1.51-second time through the first 10 yards, an important time with regards to a players quickness. By comparison, Johnston's 10-yard split was the same as Arkansas running back Darren McFadden turned in at the Combine earlier this year.

He recorded an impressive 35-inch vertical leap as well, which would have ranked second among defensive linemen at the NFL Scouting Combine – and best for a player of his size.

The most impressive result overall, however, may have been Johnston’s time in the 20-yard shuttle. He turned in a 4.18-second time, which is better than any lineman at the NFL’s Scouting Combine. In fact, the 4.18-second time was faster than any running back at the event – with Illinois’ Rashard Mendenhall the only back to match that time.

A 6.96-second time in the 3-cone, was also impressive, and would rank him third if he would have went to the combine.

bowener
04-28-2009, 12:01 PM
I'd guess next year he'll sub Dorsey's spot but not be asked to penetrate all the time. Maybe a little more 5-tech in future years?

I think he will add depth at one of the end's postions, and in passing down, play DT with Jackson/Dorsey (when one of them is out).

The biggest positive we have right now is raw talent and youth on the DL. With a lot of depth we can have them play at 100% for a series or two and start subbing to keep them all fresh the entire game.

bowener
04-28-2009, 12:02 PM
his combine #'s are all they'd need to see he's a rush backer.

i'm pissed cbs absorbed nfldraftscout.com that site used to have archives with combine and proday #'s for all prospects past and present, but it is no more

but I was able to dig this up

Measuring in at 6-foot-5, 274 pounds, Johnston ran his first 40-yard dash in an eye-popping 4.66 seconds. His slowest time of the day was 4.70, which is still faster than Johnston’s best time a year ago. Johnston’s 40-yard dash time during his pro day, would have been the fourth best at the recent NFL Scouting Combine for defensive ends, and the best for any lineman weighing more than 260 pounds.

His most impressive stat from the 40-yard dash came with a very strong 1.51-second time through the first 10 yards, an important time with regards to a players quickness. By comparison, Johnston's 10-yard split was the same as Arkansas running back Darren McFadden turned in at the Combine earlier this year.

He recorded an impressive 35-inch vertical leap as well, which would have ranked second among defensive linemen at the NFL Scouting Combine – and best for a player of his size.

The most impressive result overall, however, may have been Johnston’s time in the 20-yard shuttle. He turned in a 4.18-second time, which is better than any lineman at the NFL’s Scouting Combine. In fact, the 4.18-second time was faster than any running back at the event – with Illinois’ Rashard Mendenhall the only back to match that time.

A 6.96-second time in the 3-cone, was also impressive, and would rank him third if he would have went to the combine.

While I somewhat agree with you, we all know that combine numbers can get you into a lot of trouble when you base future performance off of them.

I am not saying he wont be an OLB, or DE, just giving a possibility as to why, so far, he is still listed as DE.

bdeg
04-28-2009, 12:05 PM
Those #'s tell me he has the quickness and speed to be a monster at 3-4 OLB, he just needs to learn technique. I never said he's done that, but his best fit is definitely not as a 3-4 DE.

He has the tools to be a really really good edge rusher

kcbubb
04-28-2009, 12:48 PM
It might be the same side but a OLB job is almost completely different unless they play the OLB/DE rushbacker position in a 3-4.

You might want to read this thread, it has information about the defensive.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=204166

good info. I thought this was interesting...

"But in the 4-3 'under' front, like the Cardinals use as their base defense which looks similar to the 3-4 to the naked eye, the biggest difference is in the outside linebackers. The strong-side linebacker is still outside the tightend. But the other outside guy - the Cardinals call this player their "Predator" - is almost always rushing the passer, although the Cards will occasionally drop him into covers to mix things up. Other differences: The nose tackle shades to the A-gap (in between the center and the guard) on the tightend side, and the end on that side moves between the tackle and tightend."

maybe the chiefs are thinking that Hali and Turk can play the "predator" position??? can vrable cover the tight end? is he good enough in coverage to do that?

KcFanInGA
04-28-2009, 01:00 PM
good info. I thought this was interesting...

"But in the 4-3 'under' front, like the Cardinals use as their base defense which looks similar to the 3-4 to the naked eye, the biggest difference is in the outside linebackers. The strong-side linebacker is still outside the tightend. But the other outside guy - the Cardinals call this player their "Predator" - is almost always rushing the passer, although the Cards will occasionally drop him into covers to mix things up. Other differences: The nose tackle shades to the A-gap (in between the center and the guard) on the tightend side, and the end on that side moves between the tackle and tightend."

maybe the chiefs are thinking that Hali and Turk can play the "predator" position??? can vrable cover the tight end? is he good enough in coverage to do that?

I would say depends on the TE, so normally yes. But we are gonna see some good TE's this year, more so than last I think. Versatility has been big in most of our offseason action, so I think he probably can.

kcbubb
04-28-2009, 01:02 PM
I would say depends on the TE, so normally yes. But we are gonna see some good TE's this year, more so than last I think. Versatility has been big in most of our offseason action, so I think he probably can.

I'm sure Antonio Gates will be happy if that is the case. I'm guessing Vrabel doesn't scare him too much. I know Donnie Edwards was getting old, but I would sure like to have him around for those two games against the chargers. Hopefully Vrabel is better in coverage than I'm giving him credit for.

RustShack
04-28-2009, 01:06 PM
Dorsey, Magee
Edwards, Tank
Jackson, Boone

bdeg
04-28-2009, 01:15 PM
good info. I thought this was interesting...

"But in the 4-3 'under' front, like the Cardinals use as their base defense which looks similar to the 3-4 to the naked eye, the biggest difference is in the outside linebackers. The strong-side linebacker is still outside the tightend. But the other outside guy - the Cardinals call this player their "Predator" - is almost always rushing the passer, although the Cards will occasionally drop him into covers to mix things up. Other differences: The nose tackle shades to the A-gap (in between the center and the guard) on the tightend side, and the end on that side moves between the tackle and tightend."

maybe the chiefs are thinking that Hali and Turk can play the "predator" position??? can vrable cover the tight end? is he good enough in coverage to do that?

I didn't realize the LE played outside the OT in that scheme. I guess Johnston would fit there on passing downs, as well.

I think the predator needs an upgrade.

RedThat
04-28-2009, 01:17 PM
McBride played MUCH bigger than Roth last season. I'm guessing he was in the 290-295 range.

And Matt Roth started at OLB before moving to DE at Iowa.

McBride was a DEFENSIVE TACKLE.

If he's not playing DE in the 3-4 for this team, he might as well be cut.

I can see that happening.

beach tribe
04-28-2009, 01:18 PM
Those #'s tell me he has the quickness and speed to be a monster at 3-4 OLB, he just needs to learn technique. I never said he's done that, but his best fit is definitely not as a 3-4 DE.

He has the tools to be a really really good edge rusher

Sounds like it. It would be so awesome if he pans out to be a decent pass rusher. It definitely indicates that he has the natural ability, he just needs to learn some moves. All that stuff can be taught. Too bad we've got ****ing Krumrie, who obviously can't teach shit.

Mr. Krab
04-28-2009, 01:18 PM
I didn't realize the LE played outside the OT in that scheme. I guess Johnston would fit there on passing downs, as well.

I think the predator needs an upgrade.
You mean someone that could do both like Aaron Curry?




:fire:

beach tribe
04-28-2009, 01:20 PM
McBride played MUCH bigger than Roth last season. I'm guessing he was in the 290-295 range.

And Matt Roth started at OLB before moving to DE at Iowa.

McBride was a DEFENSIVE TACKLE.

If he's not playing DE in the 3-4 for this team, he might as well be cut.

I'm almost certain he will end up there, and Johnston at ROLB.

bdeg
04-28-2009, 01:22 PM
You mean someone that could do both like Aaron Curry?




:fire:
not at all. he wouldn't be that guy, I'm talking a DeMarcus Ware sack machine

RedThat
04-28-2009, 01:26 PM
This defense will suck

It was awful last year, it will be better this year.

I admire Pioli for what hes doing on sticking with his plan and philosophy, the defense needed to be blown up. It was terrible last year and quite frankly they have nothing to lose by changing schemes and philosophies. They will be better based on better philosophy and plan alone.

there were very few players on our roster last year with experience and knowledge on playing in a 3-4 scheme. Adding Thomas and Vrabel provide this team with knowledge and experience, drafting Tyson Jackson will be a good fit. This is how you do it, you find the experience vets who've been in this system before, and have the knowledge to teach the younger men.

The moves they made aren't the most popular amongst media and fans, but they are right and make the most sense. finally, they are building the right way imo.

veist
04-28-2009, 01:48 PM
2007: Started all year at left defensive end leading the Big South and ranking third nationally with 24 stops for losses of 115 yards…His 24 stops for losses rank third on the school's season-record list…Led the team and ranked second in the league with six sacks for minus 41 yards…Recorded 74 tackles (34 solos) and led the squad with 22 quarterback pressures…Caused one fumble and deflected three passes…Made 74 plays vs. the run, holding the opposition to 9 yards on those rushing attempts (0.12 avg) and stopped those ball carriers for no gain on five other attempts… Registered 17 third-down plays, including eight vs. the run and had four more fourth-down stops…Collected thirteen tackles inside the red zone, including eight on goal-line plays. 11 GP; 11 GS; 77 TT, 14 TFL, 8 SK, 23 QBH, 2 FF; DPOY, 1st team All-Big South in '06. 11 GP; 11 GS; 59 TT, 12.5 TFL, 5 SK, 1 PBU, 15 QBH, 4 FF, 1 BLK; A first-team All-Big South Conference selection in '05. 9 GP; 7 GS; 58 TT, 5 TFL, 2 SK, 2 PBU, 10 QBH, 3 FF; Played outside linebacker as a true freshman in '04.

That's what they had on Johnston on NFL Draft Scout in addition to his Pro Day numbers. Looks like he has some LB experience so it is an even larger head scratcher if they don't at least consider standing him back up with the natural athleticism he has.

Chiefnj2
04-28-2009, 01:49 PM
Probably a repost, but sheds some light on the scheme to be used:

Chiefs Picks Stay True To Form
Apr 27, 2009, 9:43:20 AM by Bob Gretz - FAQ

Last year, the Chiefs defense was 31st in the NFL in yards allowed, finishing ahead of only the dreadful 0-16 Detroit Lions defense.


Scott Pioli and Todd Haley took notice, because without a doubt they went after defensive players with the 2009 Draft. Two defensive linemen and a cornerback were the first players taken among the eight picks that went off the draft board on Saturday and Sunday.

“We spent a lot of time with the defensive coaches this week trying to understand how they want to play the scheme and finding the right players to fit in there,” Pioli said. “That’s where we’re at.”

The rest of the Chiefs ‘09 draft, starting with the fifth round, was given over to the offense, with a tackle, wide receiver, running back, tight end and kicker rounding out the ‘09 class.

But the premier positions went to the defenders. There are two avenues that Pioli/Haley are using to improve matters on the defensive side of the ball. First, they are no longer going to be a 4-3 defense. They are going to play an odd-man front, the 3-5 or the hybrid 3-4 that actually has as many as five players on the line of scrimmage at the snap. The second avenue comes in the personnel being acquired to help make the change functional.

That process has gone on since the end of February with free agency and it continued in the draft. The attention has been on the front seven: the defensive line and linebackers.

“When you start to think about changing over into an odd front you need certain types of players,” said Haley. “To get two big defensive linemen who can compete right away, that’s a pretty big deal.”

The head coach was talking about the team’s first two picks: first-round DE Tyson Jackson and third-round DT Alex Magee. Football people call Jackson a five-technique defensive lineman and Magee is a three-technique. What the jargon means is that Jackson is probably best on the outside shoulder of the tackle, while Magee is best in the gap between guard and tackle.

But what Pioli/Haley liked best is that Jackson and Magee can play inside and outside, no matter whether it’s the 3-4 or the 4-3. Nose tackle is about the only spot on the defensive line that these guys are not suited to play. Haley thinks there are a couple of guys on the Chiefs roster who can handle the nose, Ron Edwards and Tank Tyler. It’s the defensive ends in the 290-pound range that the Chiefs lacked. They found that with Jackson (296) and Magee (298).

What sort of contribution can Chiefs fans expect in the ‘09 season from Jackson and Magee? Pioli was speaking of Jackson, but you can be sure he thinks the same of Magee: it takes time to make the transition.

“The history of the defensive linemen that I’ve been with whether it was Vince Wilfork, Ty Warren or Richard Seymour, people see what those players become in their second or third years and they forget what they were as rookies,” Pioli said. “Richard Seymour as a rookie struggled tremendously, as did Ty Warren, and did Vince Wilfork. All three as rookies were not the players they became.

“Picking the player where we did we obviously think he’s a good player but we have to be careful in terms of managing expectations of a player coming into his first year in the National Football League. It’s a longer schedule, bigger players and it’s a significant adjustment for the players. It’s a dramatic difference from the college game, particularly up front.”

Getting Jackson and Magee on the field and allowing that growing process to begin is one of the most important things that can happen this fall. No matter how much they may struggle, these guys need snaps and they need time.

It’s all part of the next steps in rebuilding the Chiefs defense. Earlier, veteran linebackers Mike Vrabel, Monty Beisel and Zach Thomas were added to help out on the second level of the defense. Don’t be surprised if another veteran on the defensive line or at linebacker is added before the start of training camp. The addition of fourth-round pick CB Donald Washington provides more depth in the secondary.

Pioli promised on Sunday that the Chiefs were not done in adding talent, whether offense or defense. “There’s still a lot of ground to cover,” he said.

It’s all very important ground because the Chiefs will continue to struggle as long as their defense continues to have problems. That’s what made the first choices of the ‘09 Draft so important for the short and long term future of the team.

Chiefnj2
04-28-2009, 01:57 PM
I couldn't find much on the 3-4 hybrid, but see it didn't work very well in San Fran:

"49ers defensive coordinator Greg Manusky scrapped the 49ers’ “hybrid 3-4” scheme in the second half of the season after Mike Nolan was fired as head coach and went with a simple 3-4. The 49ers yielded nearly 10 points fewer per game, and the team’s defensive ranking improved to No. 13 in the league."

veist
04-28-2009, 02:15 PM
The 49ers under Nolan the "hybrid" was big nickel. In fact I think their base defense was big nickel, which is just another example of why Nolan is a bad coach.

kcbubb
04-28-2009, 04:51 PM
not at all. he wouldn't be that guy, I'm talking a DeMarcus Ware sack machine

I think Johnston has that kind of athletic ability too, but right now I think him and vrabel are probably playing over the TE, which means that they will have more coverage responsibilities.

I think that hali and turk are going to be the the "predator" or rush backer or whatever you want to call it.

bdeg
04-28-2009, 05:04 PM
Vrabel might be over the TE, it's hard to say. From what I've heard his pass rush ability and speed fell a bit last year. I think Johnston comes in as the predator sometimes, maybe as the strong side olb when they want to rush 5(though in that situation I'd rather see him as the pred and Hali on the SS).

Hali may be the predator next season even though he's much better rushing the RT, but only by default.

I agree about Johnston, though. huge upside, hope we have the coaching to allow him to realize his potential.

talastan
04-28-2009, 05:06 PM
The 49ers under Nolan the "hybrid" was big nickel. In fact I think their base defense was big nickel, which is just another example of why Nolan is a bad coach.

Thank gawd he's coaching for the Donkeys!! ROFL

Ralphy Boy
04-28-2009, 07:20 PM
For what its worth, here is how Yahoo has our depth chart prior to the draft. Not that they know any better than any of us who'll be playing where.

Groves
04-28-2009, 09:08 PM
The moves they made aren't the most popular amongst media and fans, but they are right and make the most sense. finally, they are building the right way imo.

Just like a good parent.

Looks like we finally have a Father that cares. Go Pioli.

FD
04-28-2009, 09:46 PM
With the new coaches and scheme, and reliance on a very, very young d-line, not to mention what it was like last year, the defense we field next year has the potential to be epically, historically terrible.

But it might also be a huge improvement.

Blick
04-28-2009, 10:05 PM
The run defense should be a hell of a lot better simply because Pat Thomas is gone and we're going to have bigger guys around the line of scrimmage.

The pass rush is still going to be shit unless somebody comes on as a surprise.

ChiefaRoo
04-28-2009, 10:55 PM
If they're doing it right (like Marty did early on) KC will still suck next year but will be competitive. 6-10 to 8-8.

veist
04-29-2009, 12:24 AM
Thank gawd he's coaching for the Donkeys!! ROFL

Seriously, I love it. If he runs big nickel with the personnel he has in Denver its going to be hilariously bad, I mean 30-32nd in most D categories bad.

htismaqe
04-29-2009, 07:48 AM
If they're doing it right (like Marty did early on) KC will still suck next year but will be competitive. 6-10 to 8-8.

Marty didn't do it right. The first thing they did was anoint the aging Steve Deberg as the starter. Marty never did build his team around the QB and that's THE single reason they never won a Super Bowl.

Furthmore, they went 8-7-1 in his first season and were 11-5 and playoff bound in his second.

htismaqe
04-29-2009, 07:49 AM
With the new coaches and scheme, and reliance on a very, very young d-line, not to mention what it was like last year, the defense we field next year has the potential to be epically, historically terrible.

But it might also be a huge improvement.

Last year's defense was epically, historically terrible. They're going to be dramatically improved against the run, which will make them LOOK a whole lot better than they'll likely actually be.

bdeg
04-29-2009, 08:36 AM
Last year's defense was epically, historically terrible. They're going to be dramatically improved against the run, which will make them LOOK a whole lot better than they'll likely actually be.

What's the difference between improvement and perceived improvement in this scenario? I don't follow

If they're better against the run won't they be genuinely improved?

Jethopper
04-29-2009, 08:38 AM
What's the difference between improvement and perceived improvement in this scenario? I don't follow

If they're better against the run won't they be genuinely improved?

What he said didn't even begin to make a lick of sense.

Jethopper
04-29-2009, 08:41 AM
If your terrible defense does better against the run, then of coarse you have improved.

bdeg
04-29-2009, 08:44 AM
If your terrible defense does better against the run, then of coarse you have improved.
Rhetorical question i spose, just further explaining my point.

kcbubb
04-29-2009, 08:49 AM
For what its worth, here is how Yahoo has our depth chart prior to the draft. Not that they know any better than any of us who'll be playing where.

I saw that too, but the rumor is that they are working Turk and Hali at the rush backer, predator, or whatever you want to call it(basically the OLB that rushes most of the time in the 3-4). I would think that they wouldn't have drafted both Tyson and Magee if Turk were going to play inside. I'm guessing they are going to play Turk at the "predator" position. If they weren't planning to play Turk and Hali there, they really need to sign someone. Who else is going to play that spot??? and if Vrable plays there, who plays the other side (over the TE)???

TheGuardian
04-29-2009, 09:35 AM
First, they are no longer going to be a 4-3 defense. They are going to play an odd-man front, the 3-5 or the hybrid 3-4 that actually has as many as five players on the line of scrimmage at the snap. The second avenue comes in the personnel being acquired to help make the change functional.


The people who have been arguing with me about this please step forward now.

I told you we would NOT be running a traditional 3-4 front. EVER. Not with this coaching staff because they do NOT know that. They do know a hybrid under and over front and THAT is what we will run.

Just like I said over and over and over again.

Thank you, and good night.

Chiefnj2
04-29-2009, 09:39 AM
The people who have been arguing with me about this please step forward now.

I told you we would NOT be running a traditional 3-4 front. EVER. Not with this coaching staff because they do NOT know that. They do know a hybrid under and over front and THAT is what we will run.

Just like I said over and over and over again.

Thank you, and good night.

What exactly is the 3-4 hybrid? How is it different than the 4-3 under?

TheGuardian
04-29-2009, 09:55 AM
What exactly is the 3-4 hybrid? How is it different than the 4-3 under?

I've explained it a ton on here. Just find some of my posts and read.

Chiefnj2
04-29-2009, 09:59 AM
I've explained it a ton on here. Just find some of my posts and read.

You explained the difference between the 3-4 hybrid and 4-3 under?

I recall a 4-3 under discussion with the links I provided to Pete Carroll's discussion and diagrams. The first I saw of the 3-4 hybrid was Gretz' mention of it yesterday, although I could have missed a previous discussion of it.

bdeg
04-29-2009, 12:02 PM
You explained the difference between the 3-4 hybrid and 4-3 under?

I recall a 4-3 under discussion with the links I provided to Pete Carroll's discussion and diagrams. The first I saw of the 3-4 hybrid was Gretz' mention of it yesterday, although I could have missed a previous discussion of it.

I rewatched a bit of the superbowl at work today and this is what I was able to gather

in nickel they'd play 1 down on the lg shaded to the c, and one between rg/t penetrating and 2 standup rushers
another time they had a de rush outside the lt, with dt's in both a gaps and astandup rusher on the rt
bringing 5 against a double TE set, they had the RE over the LT, NT shaded to that side, a DT between the G/RT and another DE between the RT and TE, with a standup rusher outside the left tightend.

sometimes against a typical formation they have an end over the LG, NT shaded to the RG, and the LE between the RT and TE. Or they bring in 4 linemen with a lb on the line if they think it's a rush.

So expect it to be mixed up quite a bit

Chiefnj2
04-29-2009, 12:08 PM
I rewatched a bit of the superbowl at work today and this is what I was able to gather

in nickel they'd play 1 down on the lg shaded to the c, and one between rg/t penetrating and 2 standup rushers
another time they had a de rush outside the lt, with dt's in both a gaps and astandup rusher on the rt
bringing 5 against a double TE set, they had the RE over the LT, NT shaded to that side, a DT between the G/RT and another DE between the RT and TE, with a standup rusher outside the left tightend.

sometimes against a typical formation they have an end over the LG, NT shaded to the RG, and the LE between the RT and TE. Or they bring in 4 linemen with a lb on the line if they think it's a rush.

So expect it to be mixed up quite a bit

I'm not a coach, but it seems to me that switching all these guys to new positions and then implementing a scheme that is part 4-3 under, 3-4 hybrid, etc., is going to cause tons of confusion. I hope I'm wrong, but I can foresee lots of defensive breakdowns early in the year. (Yes, I know there were breakdowns all the time with Herm).

bdeg
04-29-2009, 12:11 PM
Our linemen are either going to be asked to shoot gaps(Dorsey), stand up blockers(Jackson), or both(Magee(he already has experience with both)). I don't think it'll be too confusing. Many players are asked to do both.

you may be right, it might take them a bit to learn their assignments, hopefully the coaching is up to the task. I imagine Vrabel can help with that, too.

bdeg
04-29-2009, 12:27 PM
I saw that too, but the rumor is that they are working Turk and Hali at the rush backer, predator, or whatever you want to call it(basically the OLB that rushes most of the time in the 3-4). I would think that they wouldn't have drafted both Tyson and Magee if Turk were going to play inside. I'm guessing they are going to play Turk at the "predator" position. If they weren't planning to play Turk and Hali there, they really need to sign someone. Who else is going to play that spot??? and if Vrable plays there, who plays the other side (over the TE)???

I'd say sign Jason Taylor but I'm not sure if he's a team player. Turk should stick on the line I'd keep him around for depth, he's a solid young guy who should improve, and depending on Magee to start full time in his first year as a third rounder is asking a lot. Let's not forget how dl usually translate to the NFL.

htismaqe
04-29-2009, 12:37 PM
What's the difference between improvement and perceived improvement in this scenario? I don't follow

If they're better against the run won't they be genuinely improved?

Absolutely. But if they only manage 20 sacks as a team, people will be bitching that they didn't improve.

htismaqe
04-29-2009, 12:38 PM
If your terrible defense does better against the run, then of coarse you have improved.

But if your terrible defense does better against the run but still doesn't get any sacks, the average fan views that as "no improvement".

Buehler445
04-29-2009, 12:56 PM
Absolutely. But if they only manage 20 sacks as a team, people will be bitching that they didn't improve.

People may argue that they aren't GOOD, but 20 sacks is twice as many as last year, that sounds like improvement to me.

But then again this is ChiefsPlanet.

Mr. Krab
04-29-2009, 01:05 PM
If your terrible defense does better against the run, then of coarse you have improved.
Not if you sacrifice your pass defense in the process, which is what we might end up doing if we don't find a pass rush. We are going to get kill with passes to the tightends and runningbacks if we field a linebacker corp as slow as it seems like we are going to do now.

Vrabel and Thomas are pretty frackin' slow and Demorrio Williams isn't much better. DJ is the only guy with any speed and he has unperformed so far. Monty Beisel is a converted DE that's always been on the slow side. Unless we sign some new guys or Weston/Mays turn out to be something, we will be slow as hell linebacker. Not good in a 3-4.

* Mike Vrabel - slow
*Zach Thomas -slow
Derrick Johnson - fast
Demorrio Williams -average
Monty Beisel - slow
Tamba Hali - slow
Turk Mcbride - not slow for a DE but ...
Brian Johnston - decent quicks, but i don't even know where he's playing
Weston Dacus - ?
Corey Mays- ?

htismaqe
04-29-2009, 01:10 PM
See what I mean?

There's already one person in this thread that says that if the pass rush doesn't improve, even if we improve against the run, it's not an improvement.

CoMoChief
04-29-2009, 01:12 PM
People may argue that they aren't GOOD, but 20 sacks is twice as many as last year, that sounds like improvement to me.

But then again this is ChiefsPlanet.

20 sacks is an improvement, but from league standards 20 as a team is just fuckin terrible. We wanna be around 40+

Remember we set the all time NFL low for least sacks in a season. Anything would be an improvement from that, but lets not set the bar that low to start with jeeez.

Chiefnj2
04-29-2009, 01:21 PM
See what I mean?

There's already one person in this thread that says that if the pass rush doesn't improve, even if we improve against the run, it's not an improvement.

It might not be a real improvement. Run D could improve statistically because teams are throwing more.

Buehler445
04-29-2009, 01:39 PM
20 sacks is an improvement, but from league standards 20 as a team is just fuckin terrible. We wanna be around 40+

Remember we set the all time NFL low for least sacks in a season. Anything would be an improvement from that, but lets not set the bar that low to start with jeeez.

Oh I know. "Horribly terrible and embarrassing" is most certainly an improvement from "so goddamn terrible it makes you sick to your stomach that you are forced to watch this worthless abortion of a defense and seriously considering offing yourself because it is truely unbearable to watch". At least in my opinion.
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htismaqe
04-29-2009, 02:02 PM
It might not be a real improvement. Run D could improve statistically because teams are throwing more.

The only statistic I look at is YPC. I don't look at total yards.

kcbubb
04-29-2009, 02:12 PM
Marty didn't do it right. The first thing they did was anoint the aging Steve Deberg as the starter. Marty never did build his team around the QB and that's THE single reason they never won a Super Bowl.

Furthmore, they went 8-7-1 in his first season and were 11-5 and playoff bound in his second.

I think Marty tried with Drew Brees in San Diego. I think that was part of the large problem that started with AJ and Marty was that Marty wanted to stick with Brees, bc he knew how hard it was to find a QB. It turned out to be a non issue with the emergence of Rivers, but I think Marty tried to build around Brees.

kcbubb
04-29-2009, 02:15 PM
What exactly is the 3-4 hybrid? How is it different than the 4-3 under?

it's a 4-3 under with the end standing up instead of with his hand down in the dirt. that's why it looks like a 3-4.

they call the stand up end the "predator" position.

tymania
04-29-2009, 02:18 PM
I guess if Matt Roth can do it for the fins at 6'4" 275 then McBride can do it too. I never thought Roth could make the transition to OLB from DE. I didn't think he was fast or athletic enough to do it.

If Hali and McBride can play OLB, I will feel much better about this draft.

Matt Roth is an U of Iowa GOD!!!! I think Hali will be able to play OLB, Mcbride might be to slow..

RustShack
04-29-2009, 02:18 PM
So is Hali, McBride, or Vrable our predator?

kcbubb
04-29-2009, 02:29 PM
So is Hali, McBride, or Vrable our predator?

that's kinda the whole question of this thread. we are all chiefs nuts, but no one really knows where any of these guys are going to play. or at least they haven't convinced me of it yet.

I think that Hali and McBride will play the predator spot and Vrable and ???? maybe Brian Johnston will play opposite of him over the TE. That's just my best guess, but I really don't know. The selection of Tyson and Magee make me think that Hali and McBride will be the predator and possibly rotate.

That would leave DJ, Z. Thomas, D. Williams and Beisel to compete for the inside spots. Thomas and Beisel would compete at Mike and DJ and D. Williams would compete at the Will linebacker spot. just guessing.

RedThat
04-29-2009, 02:29 PM
People may argue that they aren't GOOD, but 20 sacks is twice as many as last year, that sounds like improvement to me.

But then again this is ChiefsPlanet.

I just think people on this board have really high expectations.

Chiefnj2
04-29-2009, 02:40 PM
I just think people on this board have really high expectations.

Well, when you see Miami turn around with a group of vets in one year, some people think KC can do the same.

Chiefnj2
04-29-2009, 02:41 PM
it's a 4-3 under with the end standing up instead of with his hand down in the dirt. that's why it looks like a 3-4.

they call the stand up end the "predator" position.

If KC intends on playing the 4-3 under with Jackson on the open side, then IMHO, taking Jackson at the #3 was a horrible mistake.

kcbubb
04-29-2009, 03:21 PM
If KC intends on playing the 4-3 under with Jackson on the open side, then IMHO, taking Jackson at the #3 was a horrible mistake.

I think he is going to play on the TE side, not the open side.

kcbubb
04-29-2009, 03:32 PM
it's a 4-3 under with the end standing up instead of with his hand down in the dirt. that's why it looks like a 3-4.

they call the stand up end the "predator" position.


If KC intends on playing the 4-3 under with Jackson on the open side, then IMHO, taking Jackson at the #3 was a horrible mistake.

I attached an image of the 4-3 under. From what I understand the RDE stands up in the hybrid. He is what they call the predator. I expect Tyson Jackson to play LDE in this image. Tank at NT and Dorsey at DT. The DE to the open side or predator will be Hali. I think Vrabel will be on the TE side as the SLB. Z. Thomas is MLB and DJ is WLB.

If I'm wrong here, someone let me know.

I think this will fit DJ great bc as you can see the o-lineman in front of him are covered, so he should be able to run around quite a bit and make plays.

kcbubb
04-29-2009, 03:37 PM
ok.... nevermind. I'm confused again.

as quoted by Haley, he said he would play away from the TE????

this is from the press conference:

Q: What side do you envision him lining up on?

HALEY: “We probably see him right now away from the tight end, on the back side, the open side. That’s a key position for the defense as far as stopping the run mainly.”


http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2009/04/25/qa_with_scott_pioli__todd_haley_on_1st_pick/


is it possible that haley just screwed that up??? if not, does that mean that he will be playing the 3 technique or the DT spot in the image above??? the 5 technique on the open side is the predator position and is a stand up DE. no way they are standing Jackson up.

bdeg
04-29-2009, 05:21 PM
ok.... nevermind. I'm confused again.

as quoted by Haley, he said he would play away from the TE????

this is from the press conference:

Q: What side do you envision him lining up on?

HALEY: “We probably see him right now away from the tight end, on the back side, the open side. That’s a key position for the defense as far as stopping the run mainly.”


http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2009/04/25/qa_with_scott_pioli__todd_haley_on_1st_pick/


is it possible that haley just screwed that up??? if not, does that mean that he will be playing the 3 technique or the DT spot in the image above??? the 5 technique on the open side is the predator position and is a stand up DE. no way they are standing Jackson up.

I rewatched a bit of the superbowl at work today and this is what I was able to gather

in nickel they'd play 1 down on the lg shaded to the c, and one between rg/t penetrating and 2 standup rushers
another time they had a de rush outside the lt(johnston?), with dt's in both a gaps and astandup rusher on the rt
bringing 5 against a double TE set, they had the RE over the LT, NT shaded to that side, a DT between the G/RT and another DE between the RT and TE(Johnston?), with a standup rusher outside the left tightend.

sometimes against a typical formation they have an end over the LG, NT shaded to the RG, and the LE between the RT and TE. Or they bring in 4 linemen with a lb on the line if they think it's a rush.

So expect it to be mixed up quite a bit

I bolded where I expect Jackson to play, underlined for Dorsey. It looks like in this scheme they usually like to use their RE to occupy the blockers.

htismaqe
04-29-2009, 05:49 PM
I think Marty tried with Drew Brees in San Diego. I think that was part of the large problem that started with AJ and Marty was that Marty wanted to stick with Brees, bc he knew how hard it was to find a QB. It turned out to be a non issue with the emergence of Rivers, but I think Marty tried to build around Brees.

I was talking about Marty in KC, as was everybody else.

kcbubb
04-29-2009, 09:06 PM
sometimes against a typical formation they have an end over the LG, NT shaded to the RG, and the LE between the RT and TE. Or they bring in 4 linemen with a lb on the line if they think it's a rush.


I bolded where I expect Jackson to play, underlined for Dorsey. It looks like in this scheme they usually like to use their RE to occupy the blockers.

the problem with that is that Tyson Jackson would be playing the 3 technique. he has been projected by everyone as a 5 technique. and Dorsey has been talked about as being a 3 technique. A 3 technique is really a DT not a DE. a 5 technique is a DE. I really find it interesting that no one has posted more about this. How can Tyson Jackson play on the open side? they would using him like a DT not a DE if they did that unless they are going to run a more traditional 3-4 that has two 4 techniques.


you probably know this, but I'll say it anyway for those that don't. i added an image too.

A (zero technique) would mean a nose tackle aligned nose-to-nose with a center.
(1 technique) the defensive lineman is line up in the middle of the A gap.
(2 technique) defensive lineman is nose-to-nose with the offensive guard.
(3 technique) defensive lineman is line up in the middle of the B gap or outside shade of the guard. He is responsible for maintaining outside leverage and not letting himself get hook or reached blocked by the offense.
(4 technique) defensive lineman is line up nose-to-nose with the offensive tackle.
(5 technique) meant that the defensive lineman had his nose on the outside shoulder of the offensive tackle.
(6 technique) was nose-to-nose with the offensive tight end.
(7 technique) meant the defensive lineman had his nose on the inside shoulder of the offensive tight end.
(8 technique) meant that the defensive lineman was aligned on air outside the outside shoulder of the offensive tight end.
(9 technique) meant that the defensive lineman has his nose on the outside shoulder of the offensive tight end.

kcbubb
04-29-2009, 09:08 PM
I was talking about Marty in KC, as was everybody else.


oh... my bad. i guess he learned by the time he got to San Diego or maybe it was Carl. I'm guessing probably more Carl than Marty.

Mr. Krab
04-29-2009, 09:10 PM
They should put a sticky up describing the hybrid defense.

bdeg
04-29-2009, 09:14 PM
I was just thinking about this... Brian Johnston is basically a poor man's Connor Barwin. Give him another year to develop and we may have a decent predator.

As for where Jackson will line up, I think the more important thing to look at is whether he is lining up over an offensive linemen or in a gap. I think they'll use him against the LT and sometimes the LG. They talked about moving him inside on passing downs, I'm assuming that doesn't mean just to over the LG. It might make more sense to use him to absorb the LT and free up an edge rusher. thoughts?

bdeg
04-29-2009, 09:18 PM
"the problem with that is that Tyson Jackson would be playing the 3 technique. he has been projected by everyone as a 5 technique. and Dorsey has been talked about as being a 3 technique."

maybe i wasn't being clear with 'over' but what i was describing would be a 2 tech, not 3. But I'd expect him to play some 2, 4, and 5.

kcbubb
04-30-2009, 09:17 AM
"the problem with that is that Tyson Jackson would be playing the 3 technique. he has been projected by everyone as a 5 technique. and Dorsey has been talked about as being a 3 technique."

maybe i wasn't being clear with 'over' but what i was describing would be a 2 tech, not 3. But I'd expect him to play some 2, 4, and 5.

a 2 technique is definitely a DT. but I can't believe they draft Tyson Jackson to play DT spot which would be a 2 or 3 technique. but I guess that is how they are going to do it.

seems backwards to me. if they put Tyson at over the guard in either a 2 or 3 tech on the open side and Tank at NT, that would leave them putting Dorsey at the 5 tech or DE spot.

The other way around makes more sense. with Dorsey over the guard and Jackson at the 5. bc Jackson played DE and Dorsey played DT.

If Haley just screwed that up at the press conference, I will lose a lot respect for him. That should be really basic for him. I don't think he meant to say open side. Dorsey should play the open side.

I guess we'll see.

Buehler445
04-30-2009, 09:22 AM
a 2 technique is definitely a DT. but I can't believe they draft Tyson Jackson to play DT spot which would be a 2 or 3 technique. but I guess that is how they are going to do it.

seems backwards to me. if they put Tyson at over the guard in either a 2 or 3 tech on the open side and Tank at NT, that would leave them putting Dorsey at the 5 tech or DE spot.

The other way around makes more sense. with Dorsey over the guard and Jackson at the 5. bc Jackson played DE and Dorsey played DT.

If Haley just screwed that up at the press conference, I will lose a lot respect for him. That should be really basic for him. I don't think he meant to say open side. Dorsey should play the open side.

I guess we'll see.

I will base my judgement on his ability to coach a team to wins, not how he talks to the press. Everything that is said to the press is bullshit anyway. Like, "good effort today" or "X team really made us earn it.". "X team is a great team". FFS Belichick said Herm was a good coach and he was really worried.

Its all BS, so if he got some BS incorrect, who cares? It was BS to start with.
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kcbubb
04-30-2009, 09:28 AM
They should put a sticky up describing the hybrid defense.


that would be nice, but from everything I've read, I think I understand it. it's the 4-3 under with the DE on the open side standing up.

what if they really are planning on running a pure traditional 3-4 like the pats do? that would make sense for what Haley said with him lining up on the open side.

it would put tank at the nose and Dorsey and Jackson head up on the tackles. all three of those guys would have 2 gap responsibility.

that would also make sense from a Pioli stand point bc he is more familiar with getting guys that fit that system.

I'm really starting to think that even though they keep selling this hybrid stuff that they maybe running more of pure 3-4 because of Jackson. I just don't see them drafting Jackson to play DT #3 overall when most of his experience is at DE. and a 2 or 3 technique IS DT.

it has got to be one or the other..... either Haley screwed up when he said Tyson Jackson was playing on the open side or they really plan on running a pure 3-4. bc I hope they didn't draft Tyson Jackson to play DT.

kcbubb
04-30-2009, 09:33 AM
I will base my judgement on his ability to coach a team to wins, not how he talks to the press. Everything that is said to the press is bullshit anyway. Like, "good effort today" or "X team really made us earn it.". "X team is a great team". FFS Belichick said Herm was a good coach and he was really worried.

Its all BS, so if he got some BS incorrect, who cares? It was BS to start with.
Posted via Mobile Device

I guess I could buy into that bc he is an offensive coach. I don't see him really running the defense anyway. But really, he should know where his #3 pick is going to play. If I were the owner, I wouldn't feel really good about giving the guy 30 million or 40 million with the HC getting confused about where he is lining up.

htismaqe
04-30-2009, 09:39 AM
that would be nice, but from everything I've read, I think I understand it. it's the 4-3 under with the DE on the open side standing up.

what if they really are planning on running a pure traditional 3-4 like the pats do? that would make sense for what Haley said with him lining up on the open side.

it would put tank at the nose and Dorsey and Jackson head up on the tackles. all three of those guys would have 2 gap responsibility.

that would also make sense from a Pioli stand point bc he is more familiar with getting guys that fit that system.

I'm really starting to think that even though they keep selling this hybrid stuff that they maybe running more of pure 3-4 because of Jackson. I just don't see them drafting Jackson to play DT #3 overall when most of his experience is at DE. and a 2 or 3 technique IS DT.

it has got to be one or the other..... either Haley screwed up when he said Tyson Jackson was playing on the open side or they really plan on running a pure 3-4. bc I hope they didn't draft Tyson Jackson to play DT.

It's much more likely that they are going to run a pure 3-4. Haley didn't become an NFL offensive coordinator without having a FULL understanding of NFL defenses.

kcbubb
04-30-2009, 10:12 AM
It's much more likely that they are going to run a pure 3-4. Haley didn't become an NFL offensive coordinator without having a FULL understanding of NFL defenses.

that's what I'm thinking too. it makes more sense that way. Pioli knows how to evaluate talent in the pure 3-4 that the pats run.

Dallas runs a one gap system 3-4. And in that system, the LB have to take on more blockers and I can see why Zach Thomas wouldn't like that system.

But in the pats 2-gap system where the nose has both A gaps and the two DE have both B & C gaps that LB are free to run around and make plays. The linemen eat up blockers and don't penetrate.

all of the selections make sense in the pure 3-4, IF Hali and McBride can play the OLB position bc Vrabel and hopefully Brian Johnston can play the other OLB spot. DJ and Zach can play inside.

kcbubb
04-30-2009, 10:13 AM
It's much more likely that they are going to run a pure 3-4. Haley didn't become an NFL offensive coordinator without having a FULL understanding of NFL defenses.

it also sucks that I learned all this crap about the 3-4 hyrbrid or 4-3 under with stand up DE and we probably aren't even running it. :banghead:

Buehler445
04-30-2009, 10:23 AM
it also sucks that I learned all this crap about the 3-4 hyrbrid or 4-3 under with stand up DE and we probably aren't even running it. :banghead:

It happens dude. You can't know enough about football.
Posted via Mobile Device

TheGuardian
04-30-2009, 10:57 AM
It's much more likely that they are going to run a pure 3-4. Haley didn't become an NFL offensive coordinator without having a FULL understanding of NFL defenses.

It's not much more likely at all. You are only basing that off of the fact that Haley is a Parcell's guy. But the fact is he didn't hire a single defensive guy that comes from a two gap 3-4 background. And every single thing we have seen points to the fact that we will run a 30 front hybrid, not a true 3-4.

kcbubb
04-30-2009, 11:19 AM
It's not much more likely at all. You are only basing that off of the fact that Haley is a Parcell's guy. But the fact is he didn't hire a single defensive guy that comes from a two gap 3-4 background. And every single thing we have seen points to the fact that we will run a 30 front hybrid, not a true 3-4.

except the fact that Pioli comes for two-gap 3-4 background and he is used to getting players that fit that scheme.

and Haley said that Tyson Jackson would play on the open side, which means that in the hybrid he is either playing a 3 tech DT position or a standing up as a OLB, rushbacker, or predator. ummm... I don't think so.

Tyson is supposed to be a great 5 tech not a 3 tech DT or stand up guy. with his long arms, he should be a good 2 gap player.

the selection of Tyson with the #3 pick tells me that Pioli is running this show and that he wants to run a pure 3-4 like they did in New England. defensive lineman in that system are extremely important because if they don't require a double team it doesn't work. which makes the selection of Magee make sense too.

i'm thinking the hybrid talk is just that, talk.

TheGuardian
04-30-2009, 11:26 AM
except the fact that Pioli comes for two-gap 3-4 background and he is used to getting players that fit that scheme.

and Haley said that Tyson Jackson would play on the open side, which means that in the hybrid he is either playing a 3 tech DT position or a standing up as a OLB, rushbacker, or predator. ummm... I don't think so.

Uh no he said he would be playing the 5 technique. And then slide inside on some passing downs.


Tyson is supposed to be a great 5 tech not a 3 tech DT or stand up guy. with his long arms, he should be a good 2 gap player.

the selection of Tyson with the #3 pick tells me that Pioli is running this show and that he wants to run a pure 3-4 like they did in New England. defensive lineman in that system are extremely important because if they don't require a double team it doesn't work. which makes the selection of Magee make sense too.

i'm thinking the hybrid talk is just that, talk.

Actually Magree played in a 1 gap scheme. but either way, the hybrid talk has more teeth than what you are going on about because the defensive coordinator run a hybrid scheme in Arizona, and now Gretz is reporting that the Chiefs will run a hybrid scheme as well.

The selection of Jackson doesn't change that. Tyson can play inside or outside. We don't have ANYONE like that. so his ability to play in a hybrid front is just as valuable as it would be in a 30 front.

Add on the fact that Zach Thomas already said in an interview that he was looking forward to getting back into a "normal" mike backer role says we are NOT running a true 3-4. There.

Chiefnj2
04-30-2009, 11:30 AM
except the fact that Pioli comes for two-gap 3-4 background and he is used to getting players that fit that scheme.

and Haley said that Tyson Jackson would play on the open side, which means that in the hybrid he is either playing a 3 tech DT position or a standing up as a OLB, rushbacker, or predator. ummm... I don't think so.

Tyson is supposed to be a great 5 tech not a 3 tech DT or stand up guy. with his long arms, he should be a good 2 gap player.

the selection of Tyson with the #3 pick tells me that Pioli is running this show and that he wants to run a pure 3-4 like they did in New England. defensive lineman in that system are extremely important because if they don't require a double team it doesn't work. which makes the selection of Magee make sense too.

i'm thinking the hybrid talk is just that, talk.

They can play Jackson at open side in the 5 tech. It means he'll be lined up on the outside shoulder of the OT.

htismaqe
04-30-2009, 11:36 AM
It's not much more likely at all. You are only basing that off of the fact that Haley is a Parcell's guy. But the fact is he didn't hire a single defensive guy that comes from a two gap 3-4 background. And every single thing we have seen points to the fact that we will run a 30 front hybrid, not a true 3-4.

Tim Krumrie has EXTENSIVE experience in the 3-4, he PLAYED in it. Gary Gibbs was a 3-4 coach for nearly TWO DECADES before moving to the 4-3.

htismaqe
04-30-2009, 11:37 AM
So much football knowledge gone to waste because of a holier-than-thou attitude.

Ignore.

kcbubb
04-30-2009, 11:37 AM
Uh no he said he would be playing the 5 technique. And then slide inside on some passing downs.

the 5 tech on the open side stands up. he's the predator. I don't see Jackson standing up.

if they run the hybrid, Jackson should play on the TE side not the open side.

on the open side there's two defenders on the line. a 3 and a 5 tech. the 3 is normally a DT and the 5 is stand up OLB/DE/predator. if you are right about running the hybrid and Haley is right about Tyson playing on the open side then we drafted Tyson to either play the 3 tech DT spot or 5 tech stand up predator position.

neither of those make sense to me.

zach thomas's role in the 3-4 two gap system is much different than the dallas one gap system. He doesn't have to take on blockers as much in the 2 gap system and that is really what he is looking for, not having to take on those blockers and being able to run around.

htismaqe
04-30-2009, 11:39 AM
It's not much more likely at all. You are only basing that off of the fact that Haley is a Parcell's guy. But the fact is he didn't hire a single defensive guy that comes from a two gap 3-4 background. And every single thing we have seen points to the fact that we will run a 30 front hybrid, not a true 3-4.

Can you read?

I didn't say running a 2-gap 3-4 was LIKELY.

I said it was "MUCH MORE LIKELY" than Haley not knowing what the fuck he's talking about, which is what kcbubb asked.

1 in 1 million is MUCH MORE LIKELY than 1 in 100 trillion. It doesn't make 1 in 1 million LIKELY.

kcbubb
04-30-2009, 11:39 AM
They can play Jackson at open side in the 5 tech. It means he'll be lined up on the outside shoulder of the OT.

the 5 tech stands up in the hybrid. that's why it is called the hybrid not the 4-3 under. the 5 tech DE on the open side is a stand up player. I don't see Tyson standing up. it doesn't add up.

TheGuardian
04-30-2009, 11:42 AM
the 5 tech on the open side stands up. he's the predator. I don't see Jackson standing up.

if they run the hybrid, Jackson should play on the TE side not the open side.

on the open side there's two defenders on the line. a 3 and a 5 tech. the 3 is normally a DT and the 5 is stand up OLB/DE/predator. if you are right about running the hybrid and Haley is right about Tyson playing on the open side then we drafted Tyson to either play the 3 tech DT spot or 5 tech stand up predator position.

neither of those make sense to me.

zach thomas's role in the 3-4 two gap system is much different than the dallas one gap system. He doesn't have to take on blockers as much in the 2 gap system and that is really what he is looking for, not having to take on those blockers and being able to run around.

That's because Jackson won't be playing where you are thinking he's playing.

and we aren't running a two gap scheme.

And Gary Gibbs did not help run a 3-4 in Dallas.

TheGuardian
04-30-2009, 11:43 AM
So much football knowledge gone to waste because of a holier-than-thou attitude.

Ignore.

Probably because I keep having to repeat myself while offering up facts that people keep ignoring because they think they know better, and they say something contrary.

htismaqe
04-30-2009, 11:50 AM
Probably because I keep having to repeat myself while offering up facts that people keep ignoring because they think they know better, and they say something contrary.

We're DISCUSSING a fucking topic. We're not ignoring you, we're exploring other possibilities. That's why it's called a DISCUSSION forum.

TheGuardian
04-30-2009, 11:52 AM
Yes. and in this discussion I keep asking for reasons why people think something and the reasons they give make no sense.

"We will run a 3-4, because Haley learned under Parcell's. Therefore, Haley will run a 3-4."

Yet Haley hired a guy to be his coordinator who prefers a 4-3, but can run a hybrid 3-4. He could have hired a 3-4 guy to be his defensive coordinator, but he didn't. So it doesn't jive.

kcbubb
04-30-2009, 11:53 AM
That's because Jackson won't be playing where you are thinking he's playing.

and we aren't running a two gap scheme.

And Gary Gibbs did not help run a 3-4 in Dallas.

what do you mean where I think he is playing??? Haley said he would play on the open side.

As I have said and I will say it again. In the 3-4 hybrid their are 2 defenders on the open side, a 3 tech who is normally a DT and a 5 tech that is a stand up guy called a predator. Tyson has been projected as a 5 tech with his hand in the dirt. Not a 3 tech DT or a predator. The hybrid does not make sense with Tyson on the open side. Neither position is best suited for his skills.

So, either Haley messed up and should have said that Tyson will be playing on the TE side or we drafted him to play out of position or we will be running a traditional 2 gap 3-4. You pick.

I guess you believe that they are going to put Tyson at the 3 tech DT spot bc you seem to believe Haley when he said open side and you also think we will run the hybrid.

TheGuardian
04-30-2009, 11:56 AM
what do you mean where I think he is playing??? Haley said he would play on the open side.

As I have said and I will say it again. In the 3-4 hybrid their are 2 defenders on the open side, a 3 tech who is normally a DT and a 5 tech that is a stand up guy called a predator. Tyson has been projected as a 5 tech with his hand in the dirt. Not a 3 tech DT or a predator. The hybrid does not make sense with Tyson on the open side. Neither position is best suited for his skills.

So, either Haley messed up and should have said that Tyson will be playing on the TE side or we drafted him to play out of position or we will be running a traditional 2 gap 3-4. You pick.

I guess you believe that they are going to put Tyson at the 3 tech DT spot bc you seem to believe Haley when he said open side and you also think we will run the hybrid.

Tyson is not going to play standing up. You are confusing the "predator" term in that it HAS to be the weakside guy. It doesn't. I said this before. It can flip flop. In other words, Jackson may be playing the RDE spot in a 5-tech but on the left side of the defense Dorsey could be playing in a similar role with a stand up line backer right next to him.

Tyson will slide inside on passing downs. That's because the traditional nickel and dime defenses run 40 fronts. Tyson isn't going to be playing end there. It will be the "normal" defensive end guys like Tamba. Tyson and Dorsey will most likely slide inside during those fronts.

kcbubb
04-30-2009, 12:03 PM
Tyson is not going to play standing up. You are confusing the "predator" term in that it HAS to be the weakside guy. It doesn't. I said this before. It can flip flop. In other words, Jackson may be playing the RDE spot in a 5-tech but on the left side of the defense Dorsey could be playing in a similar role with a stand up line backer right next to him.

Tyson will slide inside on passing downs. That's because the traditional nickel and dime defenses run 40 fronts. Tyson isn't going to be playing end there. It will be the "normal" defensive end guys like Tamba. Tyson and Dorsey will most likely slide inside during those fronts.

that's wrong. the open side is the side without a TE. and the 5 tech DE is the OLB. that's why they call him the predator. see the attachment of the image of the 4-3 under alignment. the DE on the side without a TE is the predator. he's a stand up guy. there is NOT another LB or predator outside of him. the only thing outside of him is the CB.

Mr. Krab
04-30-2009, 12:15 PM
Imo Jackson is going to pretty much line up just like a traditional 4-3 DE on the backside or left side. He is going to be our traditional 5 DE. Then next to him we will have a nose tackle in Tank Tyler. Those guys will be pretty standard in their alignment. Although i don't think he will won't rush upfield as freely as some DE's.

Then the motion guys ... Glenn Dorsey will line up at RDE, but he will slide inside to be over the guard in a 3-ish technique.

Our rushbacker (Vrabel) will move forward to rush the passer from the outside in a RDE type position.

Coogs
04-30-2009, 12:22 PM
So much football knowledge gone to waste because of a holier-than-thou attitude.

Ignore.

We are just lucky he his here. You never know, we may forget to how to breathe or something. :D

TheGuardian
04-30-2009, 12:24 PM
that's wrong. the open side is the side without a TE. and the 5 tech DE is the OLB. that's why they call him the predator. see the attachment of the image of the 4-3 under alignment. the DE on the side without a TE is the predator. he's a stand up guy. there is NOT another LB or predator outside of him. the only thing outside of him is the CB.

Tyson Jackson will not be standing up. you can save this post if you want to. Book it.

Both Bertrand Berry and Travis LaBoy flip flopped to both sides in this scheme and when they played on passing downs on the weakside they were in a three point stance.

kcbubb
04-30-2009, 12:28 PM
Imo Jackson is going to pretty much line up just like a traditional 4-3 DE on the backside or left side. He is going to be our tradition 5 DE. Then next to him we will have a nose tackle in Tank Tyler. Those guys will be pretty standard in their alignment. Although i don't think he will rush upfield as strongly as some DE's.

Then the motion guys ... Glenn Dorsey will line up at RDE, but he will slide inside to be over the guard in a 3-ish technique.

Our rushbacker (Vrabel) will move forward to rush the passer from the outside in a RDE type position.


This is exactly what I thought. And this fits. The selection of Tyson Jackson makes sense in this alignment and player positions.

In that alignment, Dorsey is on the open side in the 3 tech and Vrable is the 5 tech predator or OLB. That fits. But Haley said that Tyson would play on the open side. That would put Tyson in either Dorsey's spot(3 tech) or Vrable's spot(pred). He really fits neither.

kcbubb
04-30-2009, 12:36 PM
Tyson Jackson will not be standing up. you can save this post if you want to. Book it.

Both Bertrand Berry and Travis LaBoy flip flopped to both sides in this scheme and when they played on passing downs on the weakside they were in a three point stance.

wow! you really aren't getting it. That is my point that Tyson won't be standing up on the open side which is the 5 tech position. The 5 tech stands up on the open side in the 3-4 hybrid. THEIR ARE TWO DEFENDERS ON THE LINE ON THE OPEN SIDE. A 3 TECH AND A 5 TECH. THE 3 TECH IS NORMALLY A DT AND THE 5 TECH IS A STAND UP DE OR PREDATOR OR OLB.

ON THE TE SIDE THEIR IS A 5 TECH (this is where Tyson should be playing if we play the hybrid) and 1 TECH OR SHADED TO THE TE NT.

again I will repeat.... So, either Haley messed up and should have said that Tyson will be playing on the TE side or we drafted him to play out of position or we will be running a traditional 2 gap 3-4. You pick.

bdeg
04-30-2009, 01:36 PM
a 2 technique is definitely a DT. but I can't believe they draft Tyson Jackson to play DT spot which would be a 2 or 3 technique. but I guess that is how they are going to do it.

seems backwards to me. if they put Tyson at over the guard in either a 2 or 3 tech on the open side and Tank at NT, that would leave them putting Dorsey at the 5 tech or DE spot.

The other way around makes more sense. with Dorsey over the guard and Jackson at the 5. bc Jackson played DE and Dorsey played DT.

If Haley just screwed that up at the press conference, I will lose a lot respect for him. That should be really basic for him. I don't think he meant to say open side. Dorsey should play the open side.

I guess we'll see.

Wow, nothing more frustrating than reading responses but the internet crapping out for 2 hours when you try to post a response.

It's not like we drafted him to be a DT just because we slide him inside over a G on some passing downs, I believe Haley mentioned moving him inside some, too. Why can't Jackson play mostly on the open side head on w the lt, with dorsey shooting gaps on the other side? When I watched the Cards they definitely did this sometimes, using their RE as a 2 gap player along with a stand up rusher outside him and the NT shaded to his side.
This is exactly what I thought. And this fits. The selection of Tyson Jackson makes sense in this alignment and player positions.

In that alignment, Dorsey is on the open side in the 3 tech and Vrable is the 5 tech predator or OLB. That fits. But Haley said that Tyson would play on the open side. That would put Tyson in either Dorsey's spot(3 tech) or Vrable's spot(pred). He really fits neither.
that's what I expected too right after we drafted Jackson, but it seems like Pendergast would rather test the RG with our penetrator, Tyson fits defending the run against the lt if we bring another rusher on passing downs.

It wasn't the selection of Jackson that made me think we might be going pure 3-4, it was the selection of Magee. If he becomes a solid 4/5 tech, I'd expect the hybrid to see limited use and for us to phase in a more pure system. But then what about Dorsey...

bdeg
04-30-2009, 01:46 PM
you make a good pointwith Haley's commments but we don't have another legit 3-4 end besides Jackson. Where does Dorsey fit in that? I think we run mostly hybrid this year to use our current talent more effectively.

Chiefnj2
04-30-2009, 02:00 PM
you make a good pointwith Haley's commments but we don't have another legit 3-4 end besides Jackson. Where does Dorsey fit in that? I think we run mostly hybrid this year to use our current talent more effectively.

What about Magee?

RustShack
04-30-2009, 02:04 PM
What about Magee?

Not every draft pick starts their rookie year.

bdeg
04-30-2009, 02:05 PM
What about Magee?

Like I said earlier in the thread we should know from the last few years how foolish it would be to count on a 3rd round defensive linemen to start in his first year. I guess we could run the 3-4 if we really wanted to with Magee splitting time with Boone, Turk, etc but where does Dorsey play in that?

htismaqe
04-30-2009, 02:08 PM
Like I said earlier in the thread we should know from the last few years how foolish it would be to count on a 3rd round defensive linemen to start in his first year. I guess we could run the 3-4 if we really wanted to with Magee splitting time with Boone, Turk, etc but where does Dorsey play in that?

First year maybe not, but it's not out of the question that they could be looking at Magee to play 2-gap in the future. Hell, BJ Raji was a top 10 pick based on the same assumption.

bdeg
04-30-2009, 02:13 PM
First year maybe not, but it's not out of the question that they could be looking at Magee to play 2-gap in the future. Hell, BJ Raji was a top 10 pick based on the same assumption.

agreed
It wasn't the selection of Jackson that made me think we might be going pure 3-4, it was the selection of Magee. If he becomes a solid 4/5 tech, I'd expect the hybrid to see limited use and for us to phase in a more pure system. But then what about Dorsey...

kcbubb
04-30-2009, 03:52 PM
Why can't Jackson play mostly on the open side head on w the lt, with dorsey shooting gaps on the other side? When I watched the Cards they definitely did this sometimes, using their RE as a 2 gap player along with a stand up rusher outside him and the NT shaded to his side.


let's see... I think this looks like what you are describing.

---TE---RT---G---C---G---LT
--MV------GD------TT-----TJ---TH
-------------ZT------ DJ



GD = Dorsey
TT = Tank Tyler
TJ = Tyson
MV = Vrable
TH = Hali
ZT = Thomas
DJ = DJ :)


this is a 4-3 over.... I think. I'm pretty sure. but Vrabel would be considered a DE in the 4-3 over but in the hybrid Vrabel would stand up.

that defense really emphasizes the weak side. it looks more of like a stunt than a base defense to me.

4 defensive bodies to the weak side. 3 to the strong side.

it really should look like this. this is a more balanced defense. but Haley said Tyson would play open side.



---TE---RT---G---C---G---LT
--MV---TJ------TT-----GD---TH
-------------ZT------ DJ

bdeg
04-30-2009, 05:06 PM
let's see... I think this looks like what you are describing.

---TE---RT---G---C---G---LT
--MV------GD------TT-----TJ---TH
-------------ZT------ DJ



GD = Dorsey
TT = Tank Tyler
TJ = Tyson
MV = Vrable
TH = Hali
ZT = Thomas
DJ = DJ :)


this is a 4-3 over.... I think. I'm pretty sure. but Vrabel would be considered a DE in the 4-3 over but in the hybrid Vrabel would stand up.

that defense really emphasizes the weak side. it looks more of like a stunt than a base defense to me.

4 defensive bodies to the weak side. 3 to the strong side.

it really should look like this. this is a more balanced defense. but Haley said Tyson would play open side.



---TE---RT---G---C---G---LT
--MV---TJ------TT-----GD---TH
-------------ZT------ DJya the 2nd one you laid out is close to what I was expecting. But if Haley is to be believed we know Jackson will play weakside and Dorsey will have an attacking role. That and seeing a similar formation in the superbowl is all I'm basing this new guess off of.

In that situation it would be heavy on the weak side, I guess I was thinking if it's a pass sometimes I'd want it on the weak side. as for what the base d will be... IF Jackson is on the weak side, maybe we run a straight up 3-4 when Magee is in and a hybrid when Dorsey rotates in?

kcbubb
05-01-2009, 09:54 AM
i really don't know and it seems that no one else really does either. that or they don't care.

Mr. Krab
05-01-2009, 11:02 AM
This is exactly what I thought. And this fits. The selection of Tyson Jackson makes sense in this alignment and player positions.

In that alignment, Dorsey is on the open side in the 3 tech and Vrable is the 5 tech predator or OLB. That fits. But Haley said that Tyson would play on the open side. That would put Tyson in either Dorsey's spot(3 tech) or Vrable's spot(pred). He really fits neither.
Unless Haley is looking at from a Offensive side perspective. Alot of times everyone gets confused because the are switching Right vs Left side depending whether you are looking from the offensive end or Safety position perspective. I dunno.

Mr. Krab
05-01-2009, 11:04 AM
let's see... I think this looks like what you are describing.

---TE---RT---G---C---G---LT
--MV------GD------TT-----TJ---TH
-------------ZT------ DJ



GD = Dorsey
TT = Tank Tyler
TJ = Tyson
MV = Vrable
TH = Hali
ZT = Thomas
DJ = DJ :)


this is a 4-3 over.... I think. I'm pretty sure. but Vrabel would be considered a DE in the 4-3 over but in the hybrid Vrabel would stand up.

that defense really emphasizes the weak side. it looks more of like a stunt than a base defense to me.

4 defensive bodies to the weak side. 3 to the strong side.

it really should look like this. this is a more balanced defense. but Haley said Tyson would play open side.



---TE---RT---G---C---G---LT
--MV---TJ------TT-----GD---TH
-------------ZT------ DJ
That would bring our main pass rush into the face of the QB instead of the backside. Weird.

bdeg
05-01-2009, 12:10 PM
Unless Haley is looking at from a Offensive side perspective. Alot of times everyone gets confused because the are switching Right vs Left side depending whether you are looking from the offensive end or Safety position perspective. I dunno.

no, he seemed pretty confident
HALEY: “We probably see him right now away from the tight end, on the back side, the open side. That’s a key position for the defense as far as stopping the run mainly.”

as for the pass rush, ideally you'd have your best pass rusher, at the time I spose that's Tamba, rushing outside the lt, and the guy over the TE often drops into coverage. So it's still primarily on the weakside

Coogs
05-01-2009, 12:17 PM
no, he seemed pretty confident
HALEY: “We probably see him right now away from the tight end, on the back side, the open side. That’s a key position for the defense as far as stopping the run mainly.”

as for the pass rush, ideally you'd have your best pass rusher, at the time I spose that's Tamba, rushing outside the lt, and the guy over the TE often drops into coverage. So it's still primarily on the weakside

This is probably going to be a really stupid question, but here it goes anyway. It sounds to me as if they are going to move the DE's back and forth if they want one particular one to line up opposite of the TE. So what happens if they put the TE in motion, and move him to the opposite end of the line right before the snap?

bdeg
05-01-2009, 01:05 PM
This is probably going to be a really stupid question, but here it goes anyway. It sounds to me as if they are going to move the DE's back and forth if they want one particular one to line up opposite of the TE. So what happens if they put the TE in motion, and move him to the opposite end of the line right before the snap?
By TE side, I think the assumption is that a base offense usually lines up with the TE by the RT. So that whole side is the strong side, and the other is the open or weak side. If the TE is on the left side, I'd still expect Jackson to play over the lt, but I'm guessing the lb's would shift toward that side if it looks like a run

Coogs
05-01-2009, 01:09 PM
By TE side, I think the assumption is that a base offense usually lines up with the TE by the RT. So that whole side is the strong side, and the other is the open or weak side. If the TE is on the left side, I'd still expect Jackson to play over the lt, but I'm guessing the lb's would shift toward that side if it looks like a run

Thanks! And thanks for not making me feel stupid as well! :toast:

kcbubb
05-01-2009, 04:26 PM
This is probably going to be a really stupid question, but here it goes anyway. It sounds to me as if they are going to move the DE's back and forth if they want one particular one to line up opposite of the TE. So what happens if they put the TE in motion, and move him to the opposite end of the line right before the snap?

not a dumb question at all. on a shift, they will move. when the TE goes in motion, the d-lineman will normally slide or the LBs will move or both.