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FAX
05-05-2009, 06:12 PM
Of late, I have been thinking about the various and sometimes strange turn of events that have affected my life. For reasons to be forever unknown, I enjoy an existence which, by all rights, I do not deserve. I was nothing short of a heathen in my younger days but now have a fabulous family, an interesting and prosperous professional life, and many friends - some of whom are actually pretty cool peeps when sober.

Anyhow, this period of reflection has caused me to think about the concept of destiny and whether or not such a force or principle or power actually exists. Throughout the centuries (perhaps since the dawn of mankind, womankind, kidkind, and sadly midget kind) human beings have conceived of a supernatural force known as destiny or fate or fortune (both good and bad) that leads us through our lives.

I wonder ... do Planeteers believe in destiny? Some unseen, strange power that predetermines the course of our events? Or, do we wander willy nilly through the willies and nillies of our existence occasionally bumping into circumstances that merely appear to us to be somehow fateful?

So I ask you, Planeteers ... do you believe in destiny?

FAX THE THOUGHTFUL

Disclaimers: Sorry if repost.

ClevelandBronco
05-05-2009, 06:17 PM
No. I believe in self determination that God already anticipates.

That will make no sense to some folks here...

luv
05-05-2009, 06:17 PM
I believe in destiny. I believe that everything happens for a reason, good or bad. We may not understand it now, but things that happen to us today shape who/where we will be in the future.

bevischief
05-05-2009, 06:19 PM
Karma...

Rain Man
05-05-2009, 06:19 PM
I don't believe in destiny, but I do believe that the circumstances of our birth propel us toward certain outcomes and act to constrain us within certain spheres of possibility. The propelling force is weak, but the spheres are rather strong. Nonetheless, they can be escaped.

Crush
05-05-2009, 06:22 PM
This is a tough question to answer, Mr. FAX. I believe that we, as individual and independent persons, are the sole directors of our final outcomes. Sure, there may be variables along the way and there may be a higher power that is observing these events from afar. However, there are multiple paths that are created from the individual choices that we can or cannot make. I like to think of it as a never-ending Choose Your Own AdventureŽ book.

FAX
05-05-2009, 06:23 PM
I believe in destiny. I believe that everything happens for a reason, good or bad. We may not understand it now, but things that happen to us today shape who/where we will be in the future.

Yes, but "karma" is not the same as "destiny" or "fate", Ms. luv. Surely, we reap what we sow. Either for good or bad - our futures are, to some extent, determined by our past and present actions. That's how come our prisons are packed with midgets.

Destiny is something different ... a course that is plotted in advance by powers beyond our control or understanding. Sort of like predetermination, but different in the sense that fate is neither good nor bad nor spiritual in any sense ... just a script that is being acted out in which we play a part.

FAX

FAX
05-05-2009, 06:24 PM
I don't believe in destiny, but I do believe that the circumstances of our birth propel us toward certain outcomes and act to constrain us within certain spheres of possibility. The propelling force is weak, but the spheres are rather strong. Nonetheless, they can be escaped.

So, you believe that "destiny" is pre-packaged to some degree in our genes, Mr. Rain Man?

FAX

Rain Man
05-05-2009, 06:24 PM
However, there are multiple paths that are created from the individual choices that we can or cannot make. I like to think of it as a never-ending Choose Your Own AdventureŽ book.

Yes, but per my spheres and vectors theory, everyone is born with a different book.

FAX
05-05-2009, 06:27 PM
This is a tough question to answer, Mr. FAX. I believe that we, as individual and independent persons, are the sole directors of our final outcomes. Sure, there may be variables along the way and there may be a higher power that is observing these events from afar. However, there are multiple paths that are created from the individual choices that we can or cannot make. I like to think of it as a never-ending Choose Your Own AdventureŽ book.

So, your philosophy holds no room for uncontrollable destiny, Mr. Crush?

I think of the many peeps who are, for example, married to a person whom they met purely by accident. These wacky peeps spend the balance of their lives affected by another peep whom they could just have easily never known. Of course, that is merely one of the paths you speak of. Still, is it possible that something we call "destiny" causes those individual paths to cross?

FAX

luv
05-05-2009, 06:28 PM
Yes, but "karma" is not the same as "destiny" or "fate", Ms. luv. Surely, we reap what we sow. Either for good or bad - our futures are, to some extent, determined by our past and present actions. That's how come our prisons are packed with midgets.

Destiny is something different ... a course that is plotted in advance by powers beyond our control or understanding. Sort of like predetermination, but different in the sense that fate is neither good nor bad nor spiritual in any sense ... just a script that is being acted out in which we play a part.

FAX

I believe that who we are meant to be is predetermined. The things that happen to us, especially those things that are beyond our control, are meant to happen.

For example, I chose to move into the apartment I live in. Maybe one of my neighbors will end up being Mr Right. Maybe I will lose my job and lose this apartment. It would make me that much more aware and appreciative of what I had. I don't know, but someone or something does.

Rain Man
05-05-2009, 06:30 PM
So, you believe that "destiny" is pre-packaged to some degree in our genes, Mr. Rain Man?

FAX

Our genes and our circumstances of birth.

Some kid born in Appalachia to impoverished parents may have a sphere of possibilities that is significantly weighted toward "tobacco farmer" or "asphalt worker", while an Arab sheikh's son may have a sphere of possibilities that is significantly weighted toward "international partygoer" or "racing camel stable owner" Could the Appalachian kid end up owning racing camels? Yeah, maybe, but the odds are a lot lower, and probably almost zero.

JuicesFlowing
05-05-2009, 06:31 PM
To me, "destiny" is nothing more than people playing connect-the-dots with events in their life.

FAX
05-05-2009, 06:32 PM
No. I believe in self determination that God already anticipates.

That will make no sense to some folks here...

The Calvinist perspective is interesting. Still, it almost seems as though they have co-opted the ancient concept of "fate" and used biblical interpretations to place "fate" in the hands of God, Mr. ClevelandBronco. To my mind, there's very little difference, really - except for the fact that predestination includes an aspect of morality that I don't think "fate" entertains.

FAX

badgirl
05-05-2009, 06:34 PM
I do not beleive in destiny, I believe what happens in life is by the choices you make.

FAX
05-05-2009, 06:36 PM
To me, "destiny" is nothing more than people playing connect-the-dots with events in their life.

This is exactly how I used to feel, Mr. JuicesFlowing. I wonder now, however, if there is more to it.

After all, the notion of "destiny" is an extremely ancient concept described by philosopher peeps who were challenged to explain some of the more odd aspects of life. Perhaps they were on to something that our current culture ignores?

FAX

RJ
05-05-2009, 06:38 PM
It's not karma.

It's a simple - yet not so simple - matter of positive repercussions coming from positive actions. If we do the right things and follow the Golden Rule, without thought of future reward, the future reward will show up anyway.

Good things result from staying busy, being positive, treating folks right (especially in business) and doing our best to follow our moral compass.

Lots of people call that karma. I think of it more as physics.

I've actually thought a lot about this over the past few years. I could elaborate further but I'd bore you even more than I already have.

Disclaimer: None of this protects us from illness, accidents or natural disasters. This is "why bad things happen to good people". Tragedy is random by nature.

Dave Lane
05-05-2009, 06:39 PM
No. I believe in self determination that God already anticipates.

That will make no sense to any one with an intellect here...

FYP

Rain Man
05-05-2009, 06:40 PM
I do not beleive in destiny, I believe what happens in life is by the choices you make.

Yeah, but at the same time there's probably some predictability with where you ended up in life that can be traced to your parents' life situation and the place of your birth and your gender and your height and the era of your birth. Your choices are to some extent constrained by those things.

Was Yao Ming's entry to the NBA pure choice, or did his physical attributes strongly push him into a particular life path?

FAX
05-05-2009, 06:40 PM
Our genes and our circumstances of birth.

Some kid born in Appalachia to impoverished parents may have a sphere of possibilities that is significantly weighted toward "tobacco farmer" or "asphalt worker", while an Arab sheikh's son may have a sphere of possibilities that is significantly weighted toward "international partygoer" or "racing camel stable owner" Could the Appalachian kid end up owning racing camels? Yeah, maybe, but the odds are a lot lower, and probably almost zero.

Yes, Mr. Rain Man. But sometimes, the Appalachian kid selects the winning lottery ticket and the Sheikh's son is killed at the age of 12 by a rogue desert elk.

FAX

Dave Lane
05-05-2009, 06:41 PM
Actually Karma is much easier or realistic than any religion. And personally I do think if you do good things, good things will return to you. Call that what you want but it really does work...

Dave

luv
05-05-2009, 06:42 PM
Actually Karma is much easier or realistic than any religion. And personally I do think if you do good things, good things will return to you. Call that what you want but it really does work...

Dave

Sometimes yes, and sometimes no.

RJ
05-05-2009, 06:44 PM
Yeah, but at the same time there's probably some predictability with where you ended up in life that can be traced to your parents' life situation and the place of your birth and your gender and your height and the era of your birth. Your choices are to some extent constrained by those things.

Was Yao Ming's entry to the NBA pure choice, or did his physical attributes strongly push him into a particular life path?



Yao Ming would never have played in the NBA had he not grown to be 7'5". But without knowing more about him, we can't say that he wouldn't have been successful in another way at 5'5".

Rain Man
05-05-2009, 06:44 PM
Yes, Mr. Rain Man. But sometimes, the Appalachian kid selects the winning lottery ticket and the Sheikh's son is killed at the age of 12 by a rogue desert elk.

FAX


Yeah, but those are two types of extraordinary events that help one break out of the sphere of one's birth. One could also say that Yao Ming and Britney Spears are other examples where ambition or genetic good fortune allow one to break out, too.

And that's not to say that it's always a good thing to break out of one's sphere. If you're a Kennedy, your sphere of birth has "Senator" right smack dab in the middle, and your path of least resistance is to be a liberal, tax-raising Senator. Breaking out of that sphere probably ends up giving you a worse quality of life, at least materially.

FAX
05-05-2009, 06:46 PM
I like the "karma" thing. Although I wish I'd been nicer to people in years gone by.

But, it's not the same thing as "destiny". Destiny isn't a payback system. Destiny deals with the outliers in causality. I mean, if strange and unaccountable events didn't occur in peeps' lives, the concept of "destiny" would probably have never come up to begin with. It's a way to try and explain outcomes that, otherwise, make no sense. Karma attempts to explain them using a barter system. Destiny doesn't.

FAX

Rain Man
05-05-2009, 06:48 PM
Yao Ming would never have played in the NBA had he not grown to be 7'5". But without knowing more about him, we can't say that he wouldn't have been successful in another way at 5'5".


True, most definitely. But the circumstances of his birth likely placed basketball within realistic reach of the center of his life sphere, and removed astronaut from it. In a way, it steered his life even if he had the final call of playing basketball or not.

Fate is not a rifle shot that places you in the center of a bulls-eye. Fate is a wide-scattered shotgun blast that creates a big, bloody hole of possibilities.

FAX
05-05-2009, 06:49 PM
Yeah, but those are two types of extraordinary events that help one break out of the sphere of one's birth. One could also say that Yao Ming and Britney Spears are other examples where ambition or genetic good fortune allow one to break out, too.

And that's not to say that it's always a good thing to break out of one's sphere. If you're a Kennedy, your sphere of birth has "Senator" right smack dab in the middle, and your path of least resistance is to be a liberal, tax-raising Senator. Breaking out of that sphere probably ends up giving you a worse quality of life, at least materially.

I think our semantics are a tad off-kilter, Mr. Rain Man.

Destiny has to do with things that occur well outside the "spheres". It's a way of explaining why things happen as they do when the "sphere" rules no longer hold true.

FAX

Mr. Flopnuts
05-05-2009, 06:51 PM
Of late, I have been thinking about the various and sometimes strange turn of events that have affected my life. For reasons to be forever unknown, I enjoy an existence which, by all rights, I do not deserve. I was nothing short of a heathen in my younger days but now have a fabulous family, an interesting and prosperous professional life, and many friends - some of whom are actually pretty cool peeps when sober.

Anyhow, this period of reflection has caused me to think about the concept of destiny and whether or not such a force or principle or power actually exists. Throughout the centuries (perhaps since the dawn of mankind, womankind, kidkind, and sadly midget kind) human beings have conceived of a supernatural force known as destiny or fate or fortune (both good and bad) that leads us through our lives.

I wonder ... do Planeteers believe in destiny? Some unseen, strange power that predetermines the course of our events? Or, do we wander willy nilly through the willies and nillies of our existence occasionally bumping into circumstances that merely appear to us to be somehow fateful?

So I ask you, Planeteers ... do you believe in destiny?

FAX THE THOUGHTFUL

Disclaimers: Sorry if repost.

"You could stake the claim.
That good work is the key to good fortune.
Winners take that praise
Losers seldom take that blame."

luv
05-05-2009, 06:53 PM
I like the "karma" thing. Although I wish I'd been nicer to people in years gone by.

But, it's not the same thing as "destiny". Destiny isn't a payback system. Destiny deals with the outliers in causality. I mean, if strange and unaccountable events didn't occur in peeps' lives, the concept of "destiny" would probably have never come up to begin with. It's a way to try and explain outcomes that, otherwise, make no sense. Karma attempts to explain them using a barter system. Destiny doesn't.

FAX

Exactly. You're much better at describing things than I am. While I do try to do good, and I make reference to karma at times, I like the explanation of the unknown that comes with destiny. Something bad happening doesn't mean I was a bad person. It could mean that it puts me in a position for something even better. Yeah, I try to be optimistic.

Rain Man
05-05-2009, 06:55 PM
I think our semantics are a tad off-kilter, Mr. Rain Man.

Destiny has to do with things that occur well outside the "spheres". It's a way of explaining why things happen as they do when the "sphere" rules no longer hold true.

FAX


See, I think a bit differently. I think destiny is the location of the sphere in the universe of possibilities, and the gravity/inertia that pulls a person toward the center of the sphere. Once the sphere is placed by the definable forces of life, free will and luck will determine how far one travels within the sphere or even outside the sphere. But I don't think there's a destiny once the sphere is placed.

Mr. Flopnuts
05-05-2009, 06:57 PM
On a serious note, I think that we as humans are not nearly aware of the power of our own minds. Subconsciously we focus more on the positives in our life, or we focus on the negatives. We then create our future with those thoughts.

RJ
05-05-2009, 07:00 PM
True, most definitely. But the circumstances of his birth likely placed basketball within realistic reach of the center of his life sphere, and removed astronaut from it. In a way, it steered his life even if he had the final call of playing basketball or not.

Fate is not a rifle shot that places you in the center of a bulls-eye. Fate is a wide-scattered shotgun blast that creates a big, bloody hole of possibilities.



Absolutely. For every 7 foot tall man playing in the NBA, I'd suppose there are a couple hundred others driving trucks or practicing law or bedridden from illnesses associated with their unusual height.

Shotgun blast is a good description.

FAX
05-05-2009, 07:02 PM
See, I think a bit differently. I think destiny is the location of the sphere in the universe of possibilities, and the gravity/inertia that pulls a person toward the center of the sphere. Once the sphere is placed by the definable forces of life, free will and luck will determine how far one travels within the sphere or even outside the sphere. But I don't think there's a destiny once the sphere is placed.

You are juggling spheres with great skill here, Mr. Rain Man. For a second there, I thought we were talking "one person/one sphere". Now I see that a person might move from one sphere to another, or share spheres, or his sphere may pop leaving the poor bastard utterly sphereless in a dangerous world.

I need to percolate on the sphere concept for awhile. I may yet adopt your approach.

EDIT: Preliminarily, I think your sphere philosophy works on a social or economic level, Mr. Rain Man. I'm not so certain about inter-personal relationships, however. More percolation is required in this respect.

FAX

FAX
05-05-2009, 07:10 PM
On a serious note, I think that we as humans are not nearly aware of the power of our own minds. Subconsciously we focus more on the positives in our life, or we focus on the negatives. We then create our future with those thoughts.

Although only indirectly related to the concept of "destiny", Mr. Mr. Flopnuts, I do agree with your idea here. I think of it as the Physical Mind (or conscious mind) helps us navigate through the physical world via the use of our sensory systems. The MetaPhysical (or sub-conscious mind) helps us navigate the unseen world of the supernatural or ethereal or spiritual through the use of our belief systems or faith. Of course, the physical mind can certainly influence the metaphysical mind ... that's what mantras and affirmations and stuff are all about. Well, that and making peeps look at you weird.

FAX

bdeg
05-05-2009, 07:44 PM
See, I think a bit differently. I think destiny is the location of the sphere in the universe of possibilities, and the gravity/inertia that pulls a person toward the center of the sphere. Once the sphere is placed by the definable forces of life, free will and luck will determine how far one travels within the sphere or even outside the sphere. But I don't think there's a destiny once the sphere is placed.

ok, so you think conditions determined at your birth place the sphere, but I wouldn't say that is destiny. I think there may have been some confusion calling it that. Destiny, which you're pretty much saying you don't believe in, would entail predetermined life events or path

Agree on the positive thinking. If you don't dwell on the negative but focus on the positive you'll be happier, react better to people, get better reactions, and obviously just have more fun with life.

badgirl
05-05-2009, 07:56 PM
Yeah, but at the same time there's probably some predictability with where you ended up in life that can be traced to your parents' life situation and the place of your birth and your gender and your height and the era of your birth. Your choices are to some extent constrained by those things.

Was Yao Ming's entry to the NBA pure choice, or did his physical attributes strongly push him into a particular life path?

I somewhat agree, but for instance I wanted to join the Army right out of high school, but my dad had ALS and I made the decision to not join and stay home to be with him (I was 17), but later I got married, now if I had joined as I wanted to do I would probably never married the man i ended up marrying and never having the children that I had, so that decision not to join up at the time and the choice to get married led me to what happened in my life. I do not think he and I were married because of destiny, but because of a decision I made earlier. I was at a crossroad and the road I took led to the way the rest turned out, along with other decisions I made some good, some not so good.

bdeg
05-05-2009, 08:05 PM
You are juggling spheres with great skill here, Mr. Rain Man. For a second there, I thought we were talking "one person/one sphere". Now I see that a person might move from one sphere to another, or share spheres, or his sphere may pop leaving the poor bastard utterly sphereless in a dangerous world.

I need to percolate on the sphere concept for awhile. I may yet adopt your approach.

EDIT: Preliminarily, I think your sphere philosophy works on a social or economic level, Mr. Rain Man. I'm not so certain about inter-personal relationships, however. More percolation is required in this respect.

FAX
as for interpersonal relationships, I think it's often random who we encounter, but who we hit it off with and continue to hang out with is affected by all of our past actions. we all grow up with peers around us, most of us given an equal chance to meet and interact with anyone around us, and through our actions we are most likely to associate with individuals similar to ourselves. not only does this open the door to meeting similar friends/females through them, but being around them reinforces our actions and we are more likely to continue to associate with the same crowd. people who have made similar choices in the past and have similar personalities will often go to the same places to meet(a certain bar for a certain group) and act the same way(outgoing & confident or shy).

excessive
05-05-2009, 08:36 PM
The human brain is designed to make connections and discover patterns. It's how we make sense of and create the world we live in. It's why some people are bad card players or football coaches: they think they see a pattern, and thus meaning, when it is chance or circumstance driving the event. When they think they see that pattern emerging again, they incorrectly play the situation and invariably the predictable happens: chase the flush and lose your chips.

The same goes in life. The mind searches for patterns, and thus meanings for life--the events that happen to us. When humans are incapable of deciphering a pattern (sometimes because it is hidden, sometimes because it is absent, sometimes because its presence is incomprehensible, sometimes because they are blind to it) and assigning meaning, they must for the sake of their own sanity construct a rationale to bring meaning to the situation. Thus destiny or fate is born.

Not coincidentally, self-determination comes into play, as assigning of a destiny or fate to oneself creates an increasing probability of that fate occurring--the ever famous self-fulfilling prophecy. We create the world we live in. Yes, random events conspire against us as certainly as do cause and effect. We live equally in a world of design and of chaos. Destiny is a choice we make to bring meaning to life when other meaning escapes us.

Groves
05-05-2009, 08:52 PM
The Calvinist perspective is interesting.

I may be missing something, but his take seemed slanted toward the anti-calvinist view where God doesn't determine so much as "look ahead". This is most definitely not calvinist.

It's hard to read the Bible and come away with anything other than that God has planned our days before they even come to pass. I believe it to be true.

Far from stifling me as if I have no input, it frees me up to act.

Is this 'destiny'? Don't know.

I do know that once I had an experience with an italian sausage thin-crust pizza hut pizza, and a pepsi with components so divinely mixed that I cannot deny it was a spiritual episode.

cdcox
05-05-2009, 09:03 PM
Yes, but per my spheres and vectors theory, everyone is born with a different book.

So Bernard Pollard was the vector shooting into the sphere of Tom Brady's knee?

FAX
05-05-2009, 09:26 PM
I may be missing something, but his take seemed slanted toward the anti-calvinist view where God doesn't determine so much as "look ahead". This is most definitely not calvinist.

It's hard to read the Bible and come away with anything other than that God has planned our days before they even come to pass. I believe it to be true.

Far from stifling me as if I have no input, it frees me up to act.

Is this 'destiny'? Don't know.

I do know that once I had an experience with an italian sausage thin-crust pizza hut pizza, and a pepsi with components so divinely mixed that I cannot deny it was a spiritual episode.

I may have mis-interpreted his post, Mr. Groves. Probably did. My take was that, in his view, God was "predetermining" the future.

Nevertheless, one could speculate that the inventor of the Italian sausage, thin-crust pizza was influenced by destiny.

FAX

Groves
05-05-2009, 09:33 PM
Nevertheless, one could speculate that the inventor of the Italian sausage, thin-crust pizza was influenced by destiny.

Ah, destiny being a higher force at work than God himself. Something God is subject to. Interesting thought.

Whoever invented that tasty pie has good taste, I'll say that.

Ari Chi3fs
05-05-2009, 09:49 PM
I recently read a book called, Journey of Souls. It was very enlightening. That being said... all time is NOW... we determine our outcome, but we got to choose our situation prior to coming to earth... we chose our parents, challenges, etc. And if we fuck up badly... we come back to a similar situation.

according to that book... anyway.

crazycoffey
05-05-2009, 09:54 PM
No. I believe in self determination that God already anticipates.

That will make no sense to some folks here...


In many ways, this very concept is the same thing as destiny and karma.

Just saying......



Fax: I believe in destiny to an extint, I also believe in karma to an extent. or at least a variety of both philosophies. Sometimes, what comes around goes around. In your opening post you said you were a hethen in your younger life, but now enjoy many successes. I ask you to verify your "hethen existance" did you kill someone and now life a joyfull life with plenty of success and fullfillment? My guess is no.....

Third Eye
05-05-2009, 10:06 PM
I tried for many years to accept the argument for free will, but unfortunately the analytic in me just won't allow it.

bdeg
05-05-2009, 10:06 PM
In many ways, this very concept is the same thing as destiny and karma.

Just saying......



Fax: I believe in destiny to an extint, I also believe in karma to an extent. or at least a variety of both philosophies. Sometimes, what comes around goes around. In your opening post you said you were a hethen in your younger life, but now enjoy many successes. I ask you to verify your "hethen existance" did you kill someone and now life a joyfull life with plenty of success and fullfillment? My guess is no.....

I believe in karma if you include rewards/punishments in the afterlife

Kyle DeLexus
05-05-2009, 10:29 PM
I believe in personal destiny. What you do in life depends on you. It is not predetermined unless you decide you want it to happen and work to achieve it.

Then again, I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Atheism based on what I've learned and Roman/Greek mythology.

Don't want to get this thread moved so just pretend I didn't say that and I don't believe life is predetermined.

bdeg
05-05-2009, 10:38 PM
atheism makes no sense to me.

if you're right ok small moral victory for you and maybe you had a little more fun than the average christian along the way
if you're wrong you burn in hell for eternity

christianity doesn't even require you to not sin, it doesn't weigh the bad against the good(I'm not including catholicism, possibly the most corrupt prominent religion in history). you accept jesus and have 0 chance of going to hell, why take the gamble? atheists need to admit to themselves that we don't know. that's their point usually, that there is no evidence, but if you don't know there isn't a hell why take the chance of spending eternity there. people don't realize what eternity means. this life is a trial-run, the ultimate test if you will

FAX
05-05-2009, 10:38 PM
In many ways, this very concept is the same thing as destiny and karma.

Just saying......



Fax: I believe in destiny to an extint, I also believe in karma to an extent. or at least a variety of both philosophies. Sometimes, what comes around goes around. In your opening post you said you were a hethen in your younger life, but now enjoy many successes. I ask you to verify your "hethen existance" did you kill someone and now life a joyfull life with plenty of success and fullfillment? My guess is no.....

No, Mr. CrazyCoffey, I haven't killed anyone. Not yet, anyhow.

The heathenism to which I was referring could probably be more accurately described as debauchery. My earlier life (prior to being transitioned to relative normalcy by the beautiful and witty Mrs. FAX) was associated with rock & roll, after all. As I'm sure you're aware, it is incumbent upon all rock musicians to partake in every known form of unseemly conduct.

But again, destiny is not "karma". Karma is a system of barter. You trade good deeds for good fortune and vice-versa. Destiny is a plan that unfolds in your life regardless of your behavior.

FAX

Third Eye
05-05-2009, 10:47 PM
Destiny is a plan that unfolds in your life regardless of your behavior.

FAX

I think many would disagree with this. If you accept destiny, then your behavior couldn't be any different than it is.

Kyle DeLexus
05-05-2009, 10:51 PM
atheism makes no sense to me.

if you're right ok small moral victory for you and maybe you had a little more fun than the average christian along the way
if you're wrong you burn in hell for eternity

christianity doesn't even require you to not sin, it doesn't weigh the bad against the good(I'm not including catholicism, possibly the most corrupt prominent religion in history). you accept jesus and have 0 chance of going to hell, why take the gamble? atheists need to admit to themselves that we don't know. that's their point usually, that there is no evidence, but if you don't know there isn't a hell why take the chance of spending eternity there. people don't realize what eternity means. this life is a trial-run, the ultimate test if you will

I had a nice long reply, but don't want to send Mr. Fax's thread to DC. I will say that I've thought that myself and feel if you are faking it and don't believe why would you be saved? That's the hipocracy that made me give up on organized religion. As of right now I do believe in a higher power, it's just in question.

crazycoffey
05-05-2009, 10:54 PM
No, Mr. CrazyCoffey, I haven't killed anyone. Not yet, anyhow.

The heathenism to which I was referring could probably be more accurately described as debauchery. My earlier life (prior to being transitioned to relative normalcy by the beautiful and witty Mrs. FAX) was associated with rock & roll, after all. As I'm sure you're aware, it is incumbent upon all rock musicians to partake in every known form of unseemly conduct.

But again, destiny is not "karma". Karma is a system of barter. You trade good deeds for good fortune and vice-versa. Destiny is a plan that unfolds in your life regardless of your behavior.

FAX


karma is another form of religion to a sense. that sense being that there are different beliefs or forms of belief in what that word means. you say it's a barter system, while I referred to it as, if you do a good deed when you didn't have to, you get rewarded for it at a later time, in this life or the next, regardless of premeditated thought for that reward.

but, again, I'm only trying to throw a different perspective to your reflections on why you have good things now, when you don't feel you deserve them. I argue that you weren't as bad as you make it out to be. Sure, you didn't live the best life early on, but you seem to be a kind enough soul, that I suspect you were also a kind person overall in your younger life, offering the perspective that you have deserved the good life you enjoy now.

just my 2 cents, Mr Fax......

crazycoffey
05-05-2009, 10:57 PM
I had a nice long reply, but don't want to send Mr. Fax's thread to DC. I will say that I've thought that myself and feel if you are faking it and don't believe why would you be saved? That's the hipocracy that made me give up on organized religion. As of right now I do believe in a higher power, it's just in question.

hence the great religious debate..... but what do we know, none of us have died and seen what happens next. Something, nothing? who really knows?

bdeg
05-05-2009, 10:58 PM
I had a nice long reply, but don't want to send Mr. Fax's thread to DC. I will say that I've thought that myself and feel if you are faking it and don't believe why would you be saved? That's the hipocracy that made me give up on organized religion. As of right now I do believe in a higher power, it's just in question.

yes, that's not how I feel or how i view believers, but a very skeptical agnostic almost Cartesian perspective but I think that alone should convince atheists to rethink their ideas

no atheist has any proof that god doesn't exist. it's personal opinion/theory/blind assumption just as much as believing, so why take the risk, why not read the bible and see what you get out of it. the possible alternative is far too risky

if you still have it, pm me your reply. I am curious and wouldn't mind continuing this


way off topic: I think 'life' is essentially a proving or testing ground for god's love. if the bible is to be believed obviously our actions(whether or not we accept jesus) determine whether we enter hell(described as a place without god's love cast into a lake of fire), or heaven, where our rewards are based on our life

Kyle DeLexus
05-05-2009, 11:00 PM
hence the great religious debate..... but what do we know, none of us have died and seen what happens next. Something, nothing? who really knows?

Exactly. And that's why I'm still debating it myself and not just going with one way or the other. When your open to alternate possibilities, you will often make a better choice...in my experiences anyway.

Kyle DeLexus
05-05-2009, 11:04 PM
yes, that's not how I feel or how i view believers, but a very skeptical agnostic almost Cartesian perspective but I think that alone should convince atheists to rethink their ideas

no atheist has any proof that god doesn't exist. it's personal opinion/theory/blind assumption just as much as believing, so why take the risk, why not read the bible and see what you get out of it. the possible alternative is far too risky

Haha, I don't go to DC often. I might need to head over and see if this is a topic of discussion going on. I have only talked to a few people on the subject and enjoy the debate. It's sometimes strange when I'm arguing both sides.

bdeg
05-05-2009, 11:06 PM
I've never really gotten into DC myself. this is the first time I've approached the subject on here

Saulbadguy
05-05-2009, 11:08 PM
While your future may not be predetermined, there is no way to prove it is not.

I'll also add that you do not make choices based on free will, all of the choices you make in life have a desired consequence that is tied to the decision. No one can make a decision, just for the sake of making a decision - and that is why our fates may be predetermined, because we can not make choices based on free will alone.

DaneMcCloud
05-05-2009, 11:08 PM
I do not believe in destiny.

I believe that each individual is in control of their own fate and they and they alone make their own destiny.

crazycoffey
05-05-2009, 11:14 PM
Exactly. And that's why I'm still debating it myself and not just going with one way or the other. When your open to alternate possibilities, you will often make a better choice...in my experiences anyway.

which is kinda of the same thing kbeg is saying too, we don't know, so hedge your bets. Kinda anyway......

bdeg
05-05-2009, 11:20 PM
which is kinda of the same thing kbeg is saying too, we don't know, so hedge your bets. Kinda anyway......

Yes, I'm saying if you're an atheist you should hedge your bets, but I don't believe all religion is or should be so cold-hearted black and white.

oh btw, kbeg really???

Goldmember
05-05-2009, 11:37 PM
I don't believe in destiny. Humans exist as all living things exist, part of a big recycling bin, nothing more. Birth, life, death, repeat. This will continue until the sun explodes. Then it all becomes part of the universe recycling bin. I know this to be true.

Goldmember
05-05-2009, 11:42 PM
atheism makes no sense to me.

if you're right ok small moral victory for you and maybe you had a little more fun than the average christian along the way
if you're wrong you burn in hell for eternity



What if you like to burn?? That would be a good thing

bdeg
05-05-2009, 11:46 PM
let's just say i don't think you'd like that kind of burn for very long:p

Raised On Riots
05-05-2009, 11:52 PM
You make your destiny. I've seen nothing in life to indicate otherwise.

acesn8s
05-06-2009, 03:49 AM
If you are destined to X then regardless of your decisions you will end up at X. However, we know that if you eat alot of calories and sit on your ass all day, everyday, your ass gets bigger. One is not destined to be a fatass but rather chooses (knowingly or not) to become a fatass.

Was the bad call at the Denver/SD game predetermined? Was Hocholi(sp?) unable to make the correct call regardless of what he could or could not do to rectify the situation? Or was it because his poor judgement, his ego, the rule book, and the situation created such a confrontational call? IMO it was a series of decisions that led to the dumbassery.

beach tribe
05-06-2009, 05:35 AM
I believe we make what happens happen. I should by all acconts be dead or in prison, but I'm not. I'm living a GREAT life.

If God knew everything that was going to happen, what would be the point?

I think we, and life in general was his experiment, and he is watching with little interference. The only part of it that i think he knows for certain, is the final outcome, and even that can come about in many different ways.

Third Eye
05-06-2009, 06:35 AM
If you are destined to X then regardless of your decisions you will end up at X.
Not true. You will end up at X it is BECAUSE of your decisions, not IN SPITE of them.

mikey23545
05-06-2009, 06:36 AM
I think destiny is the scapegoat people cling to when they are too weak to claim responsibility for their own actions and decisions....

Third Eye
05-06-2009, 06:48 AM
I think destiny is the scapegoat people cling to when they are too weak to claim responsibility for their own actions and decisions....
Ah, one of the classic arguments. Too bad it doesn't attack the argument, merely a perceived consequence.

mikey23545
05-06-2009, 06:53 AM
I see no need to disprove the existence of destiny.

If others wish to claim the existence of such an extraordinary phenomenon (much the same as ghosts or UFOs) then it it is up to them to provide extraordinary proof.

KcFanInGA
05-06-2009, 07:00 AM
God, my friend. He will never stop looking for you and giving to you, and none of us deserve what he gives to us, we cant. The Bible is clear that his grace is a gift. He is the one you should ask this question to. But a little CP observation never hurts either!

KcFanInGA
05-06-2009, 07:03 AM
I don't believe in destiny. Humans exist as all living things exist, part of a big recycling bin, nothing more. Birth, life, death, repeat. This will continue until the sun explodes. Then it all becomes part of the universe recycling bin. I know this to be true.

You KNOW it to be true? Im pretty sure thats the overstatement of the day right there. :shake:

KcFanInGA
05-06-2009, 07:05 AM
atheism makes no sense to me.

if you're right ok small moral victory for you and maybe you had a little more fun than the average christian along the way
if you're wrong you burn in hell for eternity

christianity doesn't even require you to not sin, it doesn't weigh the bad against the good(I'm not including catholicism, possibly the most corrupt prominent religion in history). you accept jesus and have 0 chance of going to hell, why take the gamble? atheists need to admit to themselves that we don't know. that's their point usually, that there is no evidence, but if you don't know there isn't a hell why take the chance of spending eternity there. people don't realize what eternity means. this life is a trial-run, the ultimate test if you will

Wrong. This is where the Church in America is failing. One time salvation is not forever. You still have to live according to the word of God. There are plenty of saved people in the world that will not go to heaven IMO, but I do not presume to think I will not be surprised at some of the people I see when I get there. And Im sure they might be surprised to see me..:D

Katipan
05-06-2009, 07:10 AM
Of late, I have been thinking about the various and sometimes strange turn of events that have affected my life. For reasons to be forever unknown, I enjoy an existence which, by all rights, I do not deserve. I was nothing short of a heathen in my younger days but now have a fabulous family, an interesting and prosperous professional life, and many friends - some of whom are actually pretty cool peeps when sober.

Anyhow, this period of reflection has caused me to think about the concept of destiny and whether or not such a force or principle or power actually exists. Throughout the centuries (perhaps since the dawn of mankind, womankind, kidkind, and sadly midget kind) human beings have conceived of a supernatural force known as destiny or fate or fortune (both good and bad) that leads us through our lives.

I wonder ... do Planeteers believe in destiny? Some unseen, strange power that predetermines the course of our events? Or, do we wander willy nilly through the willies and nillies of our existence occasionally bumping into circumstances that merely appear to us to be somehow fateful?

So I ask you, Planeteers ... do you believe in destiny?

FAX THE THOUGHTFUL

Disclaimers: Sorry if repost.


ooooh ooooh I wanna answer before I read any responses. So if this thread has degenerated into a poop transexual thread by the time I read the last pages, I'm blaming fate.

I don't like believing that my life is pre-destined. I like believing that the opportunities are pre-destined. Like, life will give me lemons just to see what I'll do with them.

Living like that takes a lot of stress out of your life. If you go every day believing that the experiences you are living through are justified because for some outworldly reason you are SUPPOSED to be experiencing it, then well hell, why stress? Just do it. ($10 to Nike, thank you)

And of course there are the wtf moments. So many damn coincidences stacked on top of eachother that some mathematically inclined geniOUs would say that those extreme odds have to happen, but I'm more inclined to be a dreamer about.

I guess I believe I'm here because I'm supposed to be. And I won't be when I'm not supposed to be anymore. But I'm also the kind of girl that runs wide eyed and open armed into any new experience. And THAT comes from not being afraid to die.

Katipan
05-06-2009, 07:13 AM
Karma...

Now, I do believe in one of those many many many definitions of karma.

Otter
05-06-2009, 07:23 AM
Of late, I have been thinking about the various and sometimes strange turn of events that have affected my life. For reasons to be forever unknown, I enjoy an existence which, by all rights, I do not deserve. I was nothing short of a heathen in my younger days but now have a fabulous family, an interesting and prosperous professional life, and many friends - some of whom are actually pretty cool peeps when sober.The day isn't over yet

Fax, don't push your luck.

Just do a search on "whistling man hit, dragged and trapped under bus for several hours".

As far as believing in destiny - yes, I met her at a bachelor party and she gave me a lap dance to Ted Nugent's "Stranglehold" then offered to go to the wedding with me when I told her I needed a date.

MOhillbilly
05-06-2009, 07:24 AM
you play the cards you are dealt. no more, no less.

ziggysocki
05-06-2009, 07:25 AM
Pure randomness. A mixture of personal decisions, environmental factors and external forces. So many variables that the number of possible events and outcomes are nearly infinite. I honestly feel it is completely random. Unfortunately people need 'value' added to their existence to make them feel like they have a purpose, I think this is where religion, destiny, karma, fate etc. etc. come into play. They give an explanation to the unexplainable, and humans are more comfortable believing a bunch of bullshit than just accepting that their existence is nothing more than a series of random events that serve no real purpose. But wtf do I know, I am just some random CP poster.

Katipan
05-06-2009, 07:27 AM
...I think this is where religion, destiny, karma, fate etc. etc. come into play. They give an explanation to the unexplainable, and humans are more comfortable believing a bunch of bullshit than just accepting that their existence is nothing more than a series of random events that serve no real purpose. But wtf do I know, I am just some random CP poster.

Boring too.

ziggysocki
05-06-2009, 07:34 AM
Boring too.

At the risk of neg rep... THIS.

jrowe
05-06-2009, 07:35 AM
No. I believe in self determination that God already anticipates.

That will make no sense to some folks here...

The first answer given is the correct one. This is exactly what my belief and understanding of life is.

seclark
05-06-2009, 07:45 AM
there are some deep thinkers in this thread. just reading the opening post made my head spin.

i guess i'm destined to eat cheetos and surf porn.
sec

ziggysocki
05-06-2009, 07:55 AM
there are some deep thinkers in this thread. just reading the opening post made my head spin.

i guess i'm destined to eat cheetos and surf porn.
sec

Finally someone hit on the true meaning of life. ;)

Garcia Bronco
05-06-2009, 09:29 AM
I believe in tabula rasa

bdeg
05-06-2009, 11:15 AM
Wrong. This is where the Church in America is failing. One time salvation is not forever. You still have to live according to the word of God. There are plenty of saved people in the world that will not go to heaven IMO, but I do not presume to think I will not be surprised at some of the people I see when I get there. And Im sure they might be surprised to see me..:D

wrong. at least according to the bible. accept Jesus as your savior and ALL sins are forgiven. it's not accept him and then if the good outweighs the bad you're in. we're all sinners and one sin is too tarnishing to allow our entrance to heaven, so accept him and forgives all your sins(I know not all churches believe this, this is what the denomination I was brought up in believed, and it seems to line up with the bible to me).

to explain the interpersonal relationships thing i was talking about earlier, I'm not sure I ever made my real point clear.. Don't believe in fate that certain events will happen, I believe it's mostly random but how things play out in everyday scenarios and what doors are open is affected by every action and decision we've ever made. It's the decisions we make in life that determine what road we end up on, not a force pulling us toward an outcome. although I do agree with God-anticipated self-determination.

crazycoffey
05-06-2009, 01:28 PM
this thread was more fun when I was blasted on Tequilla, was it destined to be this boring for me, or did I choose to be an alcoholic so I can better accept my destiny?

acesn8s
05-06-2009, 02:44 PM
Not true. You will end up at X it is BECAUSE of your decisions, not IN SPITE of them.Then it is not destiny it is volition.

Spott
05-06-2009, 02:48 PM
It's all luck, but if you're a Chiefs fan it's all bad luck.

Goldmember
05-06-2009, 02:49 PM
You KNOW it to be true? Im pretty sure thats the overstatement of the day right there. :shake:

Yes, the sun will explode someday, unless someone like you steps in and ruins the whole thing. It's the sun's destiny.

acesn8s
05-06-2009, 02:53 PM
this thread was more fun when I was blasted on Tequilla, was it destined to be this boring for me, or did I choose to be an alcoholic so I can better accept my destiny?Ahhh tequilla God's medine to help us see clearly and understand the Planets BS.

Third Eye
05-06-2009, 05:53 PM
I see no need to disprove the existence of destiny.

If others wish to claim the existence of such an extraordinary phenomenon (much the same as ghosts or UFOs) then it it is up to them to provide extraordinary proof.

I agree in the case of the extraordinary, but I fail to see how determinism could be considered extraordinary. In fact, given all of the empirical evidence in the world, I would consider free will to be FAR more extraordinary.

Third Eye
05-06-2009, 05:55 PM
Then it is not destiny it is volition.

It is only volition if you believe the choices we make are random or changeable. I, for one, do not.

crispystl420
05-06-2009, 06:45 PM
Karma...

Yes, this

acesn8s
05-07-2009, 02:05 AM
It is only volition if you believe the choices we make are random or changeable. I, for one, do not.So free will, according to you, is not really free will. My decisions have already been made but I don't know it yet. Regardless of what I do later, my dinner plans have already been made. :rolleyes:

Third Eye
05-07-2009, 01:19 PM
So free will, according to you, is not really free will. My decisions have already been made but I don't know it yet. Regardless of what I do later, my dinner plans have already been made. :rolleyes:

No, not at all. Rather, free will simply does not exist. It is an illusion. Your decisions haven't been made before hand, but rather what you perceive as alternatives simply aren't.

Here is a cut/paste job from a post I made on another forum a long time ago:

Ok. What is the difference between fate and free-will? Choice, right? Let's illustrate this. I/you/he/she are driving home from work. I am feeling hungry. I stop my car at a four-way intersection. To the left I can go to McDonalds. Straight will take me do the deli. Right will take me home where I can eat leftovers. Here is where a diagram comes in handy. Imagine a timeline that is straight until it comes to a three-way fork. The straight part represents everything that has occurred since the beginning of time, and the fork is this current decision. There are of course many more possible paths than the three, (I could turn around and go back to work, I could get out of my car and find someone eating on the street and steal their food, etc.) but these will be sufficient to demonstrate my point.

The key here is the point right before the split. This is the point where the decision is made as to whether I will go left, straight, or right. There are many ways to come to this decision-how much money I have on me, what my beliefs are about giving money to the McDonalds machine, what I am hungry for, etc. To put it simply, my choice as to which fork I will choose is determined by the timeline before it. In this particular case we will say that I remembered that I left my wallet at home so I turn right and go eat leftovers.

Now, imagine an infinite number of timelines that are identical that all come to this fork. Here is the rub: I contend that since all of these timelines are identical, I will choose the same fork every time. Now if I choose the same fork everytime, then the other forks never really exist since they cannot possibly be taken. Therefore it is my opinion that choice is merely an illusion and our true path is unavoidable.

Groves
05-07-2009, 01:39 PM
Therefore it is my opinion that choice is merely an illusion and our true path is unavoidable.


Don't act like you put rational thought into it. You mean it was your 'destiny' to say it.

Right?

bdeg
05-07-2009, 01:46 PM
so basically our decision is already made for us because our events up to that point will have caused us to make the same decision every time.
according to that every action, every thought we have, is just a product of our past. if two people grew up with identical experiences, they would react exactly the same, down to the thought, if each was presented with an identical situation.

I understand that and agree with the general sentiment that many of our choices we 'make' are not by choice but by past. Here's the thing... we're all different going back to our genes, and we all make choices a little differently. While it's influenced by the past, not everyone would make the choice you did in your situation(so if you ask me, the choices still exist). Going back to the people growing up identically, I think even if you give them identical parents and events, their reactions and choices will differ.

a hypothetical different person who lives the first half of your 'time line' or w/e you call it, will at some point break off from your line. was that a choice, or was it dictated by past?

acesn8s
05-07-2009, 01:53 PM
No, not at all. Rather, free will simply does not exist. It is an illusion. Your decisions haven't been made before hand, but rather what you perceive as alternatives simply aren't.

Here is a cut/paste job from a post I made on another forum a long time ago:

Ok. What is the difference between fate and free-will? Choice, right? Let's illustrate this. I/you/he/she are driving home from work. I am feeling hungry. I stop my car at a four-way intersection. To the left I can go to McDonalds. Straight will take me do the deli. Right will take me home where I can eat leftovers. Here is where a diagram comes in handy. Imagine a timeline that is straight until it comes to a three-way fork. The straight part represents everything that has occurred since the beginning of time, and the fork is this current decision. There are of course many more possible paths than the three, (I could turn around and go back to work, I could get out of my car and find someone eating on the street and steal their food, etc.) but these will be sufficient to demonstrate my point.

The key here is the point right before the split. This is the point where the decision is made as to whether I will go left, straight, or right. There are many ways to come to this decision-how much money I have on me, what my beliefs are about giving money to the McDonalds machine, what I am hungry for, etc. To put it simply, my choice as to which fork I will choose is determined by the timeline before it. In this particular case we will say that I remembered that I left my wallet at home so I turn right and go eat leftovers.

Now, imagine an infinite number of timelines that are identical that all come to this fork. Here is the rub: I contend that since all of these timelines are identical, I will choose the same fork every time. Now if I choose the same fork everytime, then the other forks never really exist since they cannot possibly be taken. Therefore it is my opinion that choice is merely an illusion and our true path is unavoidable.You say that free will to be FAR more extraordinary but then say that choice is merely an illusion and our true path is unavoidable. Which is it?

To choose or not to choose? THAT is the question.

Third Eye
05-07-2009, 01:55 PM
Don't act like you put rational thought into it. You mean it was your 'destiny' to say it.

Right?

I've never really cared for that word, it has a fairy tale kind of connotation. I think you could better say that my posting was determined.

bdeg
05-07-2009, 02:01 PM
or do you see this as all irrelevant because it's still your 'choice' and going to end the same every time? the point I'm trying to make is that the decisions we make are unique to us, and that while our pasts have each placed us on a path, if everyone else had had your path up to this point we would not live the same lives from here on out. in that sense i think the decisions we make, while being somewhat dictated by our past, are still unique to us and in that sense the outcome was our choice(although you could say determined if you include not only outside events but genes, but what else is there? what else is going to shape us into this modern decision maker?)

acesn8s
05-07-2009, 02:05 PM
so basically our decision is already made for us because our events up to that point will have caused us to make the same decision every time.
according to that every action, every thought we have, is just a product of our past. if two people grew up with identical experiences, they would react exactly the same, down to the thought, if each was presented with an identical situation.

I understand that and agree with the general sentiment that many of our choices we 'make' are not by choice but by past. Here's the thing... we're all different going back to our genes, and we all make choices a little differently. While it's influenced by the past, not everyone would make the choice you did in your situation(so if you ask me, the choices still exist). Going back to the people growing up identically, I think even if you give them identical parents and events, their reactions and choices will differ.

a hypothetical different person who lives the first half of your 'time line' or w/e you call it, will at some point break off from your line. was that a choice, or was it dictated by past?To take this thought a step further...


Two identical people do the exact same things, however, a piece of gravel slips under ones foot but not the other moving one 1/10th of a mm to the right. At no point will the two experience the same situation exactly the same ever again. Each choice being slightly different until a noticable gap occurs.

Third Eye
05-07-2009, 02:07 PM
You say that free will to be FAR more extraordinary but then say that choice is merely an illusion and our true path is unavoidable. Which is it?

To choose or not to choose? THAT is the question.

When I say extraordinary, I mean less likely, literally beyond ordinary. So I guess I don't see the contradiction.

acesn8s
05-07-2009, 02:09 PM
When I say extraordinary, I mean less likely, literally beyond ordinary. So I guess I don't see the contradiction.Does free will exist or not?

Third Eye
05-07-2009, 02:11 PM
or do you see this as all irrelevant because it's still your 'choice' and going to end the same every time? the point I'm trying to make is that the decisions we make are unique to us, and that while our pasts have each placed us on a path, if everyone else had had your path up to this point we would not live the same lives from here on out. in that sense i think the decisions we make, while being somewhat dictated by our past, are still unique to us and in that sense the outcome was our choice.

I really want to respond to this and others properly, but I have company now. Promise I will get back to it later.

bdeg
05-07-2009, 02:29 PM
Every event affects our future self in a tiny way, our experiences form us to make the decisions we do. you're asserting that every time we'd make the same decision. This may be true, but I think the value of choice lies in the fact that others wouldn't have made the same one

Groves
05-07-2009, 02:40 PM
I've never really cared for that word, it has a fairy tale kind of connotation. I think you could better say that my posting was determined.

I need to be clear. Far from a thoughtless post, it seemed like your post contained a lot of thought. Well reasoned and clearly explained. (not that I agree totally)

It was at that point that I wondered where such logic and action fit into the 'everything is predetermined' line of philosophy. Where is the place of reasoning in order to figure out which path to take?

I do think it more reasonable that if everything is predetermined, that a person has determined these things, and not just an impersonal force.

Do you think there's a source to all of this? or it's just the way it is, nobody had to determine the predetermined things, they just are?

Third Eye
05-07-2009, 03:19 PM
so basically our decision is already made for us because our events up to that point will have caused us to make the same decision every time.
according to that every action, every thought we have, is just a product of our past. if two people grew up with identical experiences, they would react exactly the same, down to the thought, if each was presented with an identical situation.

I understand that and agree with the general sentiment that many of our choices we 'make' are not by choice but by past. Here's the thing... we're all different going back to our genes, and we all make choices a little differently. While it's influenced by the past, not everyone would make the choice you did in your situation(so if you ask me, the choices still exist). Going back to the people growing up identically, I think even if you give them identical parents and events, their reactions and choices will differ.

a hypothetical different person who lives the first half of your 'time line' or w/e you call it, will at some point break off from your line. was that a choice, or was it dictated by past?

I fully agree with this. I believe there is absolutely a combination of nature and nurture which shapes who we are and two people people who share exactly the same experiences can have two different outcomes. Without a doubt.

Third Eye
05-07-2009, 03:22 PM
To take this thought a step further...


Two identical people do the exact same things, however, a piece of gravel slips under ones foot but not the other moving one 1/10th of a mm to the right. At no point will the two experience the same situation exactly the same ever again. Each choice being slightly different until a noticable gap occurs.

Yeah, I should've been more clear when I mentioned the timelines. It includes not just your experiences, but your biochemical makeup as well.

RNR
05-07-2009, 03:54 PM
Being wealthy was never in the cards for me, although thinking back it is easy to understand why. I was reckless and rowdy before getting married and having kids. I have always got by with hard work. I never took the time to go to school to attain the knowledge needed for a high paying job. I have an uncanny ability to not get it sometimes...

Here are a few of my gems. Years ago a buddy and I were talking and he told me about this Beta thingy that could record tv shows and such. I looked at him like he was nuts. I said what in the heck would you want that for??? how much did you pay for it??? followed by my laughter. Why in the world would you want to watch something you have already seen??? Walking off shaking my head thinking he was a total idiot and whoever sold those recording things would soon be out of work.

Another time a I was riding with a guy who had one of the first CD players. He was telling me how cool it was. Well when ever we would hit a bump it would screw up. I ask him why in the heck would you put a record player in your truck??? Once again I walked off thinking whoever sells those record players for cars and trucks would soon be out of work! Tape players dont skip duh! I have really been pretty lucky I have two great kids that are much brighter than their dad! I have always had enough money to pay the bills and enjoy life for the most part :D

Third Eye
05-07-2009, 04:08 PM
It was at that point that I wondered where such logic and action fit into the 'everything is predetermined' line of philosophy. Where is the place of reasoning in order to figure out which path to take?



Oh man, this right here really is the crux of it. Let me answer your other question first, it is MUCH easier. Yes, I do believe there is a source, but I find it impossible to ascribe it any attributes. I tend to like the prime mover or first cause argument. That is about all I can say with any high sense of certainty. I could go further with my own personal beliefs, but they are more speculative and would require a much longer post that I don't have time for now.

Back to reasoning. Reasoning (to me) is the backbone of determinism. Reasoning is the taking in of all the relevant information, processing that information, and then ultimately using that information to make an informed decision. It is also subjective and reliant upon the information it has taken in. This is where the biochemistry comes in. Some people have better access to their memories, meaning they recall more AND recall more correctly. Two people who experience the same things walk away with different results because they process them differently. Now applying that to decision making, your reasoning, because it is grounded in your own experiences will always lead you to x + y = z in your head.

Over-Head
05-07-2009, 05:45 PM
I blieve in God almighty, creator of heaven and earth,
I believe in his only son our lord........

Other than that, Karma.

My slogan in life
"Remember whose toes you step on climbing to the top,
Cuz their usually hooked to the foot kicking your ass when you fall back down"

FAX
05-07-2009, 08:24 PM
Amen, Mr. Over-Head. Those peeps below you on the ladder of life remember you, too. The bastards.

Oh, and thanks to all for making this a 100+ post thread. I am very proud.

Oh, and oh. Really interesting posts, peeps. Some extremely thought provoking concepts and perspectives. My compliments to your brainpans.

FAX

FAX
05-07-2009, 08:29 PM
Being wealthy was never in the cards for me, although thinking back it is easy to understand why. I was reckless and rowdy before getting married and having kids. I have always got by with hard work. I never took the time to go to school to attain the knowledge needed for a high paying job. I have an uncanny ability to not get it sometimes...

Here are a few of my gems. Years ago a buddy and I were talking and he told me about this Beta thingy that could record tv shows and such. I looked at him like he was nuts. I said what in the heck would you want that for??? how much did you pay for it??? followed by my laughter. Why in the world would you want to watch something you have already seen??? Walking off shaking my head thinking he was a total idiot and whoever sold those recording things would soon be out of work.

Another time a I was riding with a guy who had one of the first CD players. He was telling me how cool it was. Well when ever we would hit a bump it would screw up. I ask him why in the heck would you put a record player in your truck??? Once again I walked off thinking whoever sells those record players for cars and trucks would soon be out of work! Tape players dont skip duh! I have really been pretty lucky I have two great kids that are much brighter than their dad! I have always had enough money to pay the bills and enjoy life for the most part :D

See, I think I was probably a lot like you in my younger days, Mr. RedNeckRaider. That's why my current existence seems particularly incongruous if you think in terms of "karma" or "ability".

Nevertheless, we must always remember that life is utterly precious. If we do, we stand a better chance of making every day count and enjoy whatever people and things that come our way ... whether we deserve them or not.

FAX THE FORMERLY RECKLESS AND ROWDY

Groves
05-07-2009, 11:11 PM
Reasoning (to me) is the backbone of determinism. Reasoning is the taking in of all the relevant information, processing that information, and then ultimately using that information to make an informed decision.

This is a very interesting take on things.

My limited mind is barely grasping it. Doesn't the system you describe kind of presuppose that people are going to follow what their reasoning and logic tell them is the best decision to make?

In this system you have articulated, the reasoning, derived from the relevant information and individual processing, will lead the individual to their decision or path.

How do I account for the fact that I don't always follow what my logic and reasoning tell me I should do? And if I sometimes do and sometimes don't follow it, how can it still be described as predetermined?

The reasoning and genetic dispositions and all of that still just lead us back to square one if we're able to resist the conclusions the deliver, yes?

FAX
05-07-2009, 11:13 PM
Excellent point, Mr. Groves. Most excellent.

It could be argued that the vast majority of peeps actually fail to make their decisions based on reasoned logic. Rather, they follow their emotions.

FAX

bdeg
05-07-2009, 11:14 PM
actually, let me rephrase all that...


"How do I account for the fact that I don't always follow what my logic and reasoning tell me I should do? And if I sometimes do and sometimes don't follow it, how can it still be described as predetermined?"
you're wrong

you do always follow your reasoning

please explain one time you didn't

FAX
05-07-2009, 11:20 PM
Sourcing emotions is a science in and of itself. Psychiatry has yet to determine how and why persons "feel" a particular way. There are as many schools of thought on this subject as there are schools.

Yet, most decisions are made on an emotional level. Watch television ads for an hour. The vast majority appeal to the emotions ... not the intellect. Why? Because emotions are, by far, the more powerful motivating force in decision making. The billions spent each year attempting to leverage that truth attest that our emotions rule our mind.

FAX

bdeg
05-07-2009, 11:23 PM
but are our emotions not shaped by the experiences that have occurred in our lives?

for example, victims of child abuse often scarred for life

maybe the emotional decisions you're making are sub-consciously weighed out in your mind. maybe you don't follow your 'logic', or the 'smart move', because you're trying to get laid, or looking for acceptance.

Groves
05-07-2009, 11:24 PM
there must be a reason


This actually seems highly speculative, and not accompanied by a lot of data. It begs the question that we're discussing.

You can't both assume that there must be a reason as we discuss the merits of whether or not there is a reason or not.

It's bad logic, methinks.

FAX
05-07-2009, 11:27 PM
I imagine they are, Mr. bdeg. Significantly so. Yet, it is unproven and unknown what the true source of emotions are. Our basic emotions may date back to the earliest points in the evolutionary time line as they were used primarily for survival and are, therefore, more genetic than experiential.

FAX

bdeg
05-07-2009, 11:27 PM
This actually seems highly speculative, and not accompanied by a lot of data. It begs the question that we're discussing.

You can't both assume that there must be a reason as we discuss the merits of whether or not there is a reason or not.

It's bad logic, methinks.ya, that part of it was a bad point, hence the edit

Groves
05-07-2009, 11:34 PM
you do always follow your reasoning

please explain one time you didn't


explaining how I don't always follow my reasoning?

This is like shooting fish in a barrel, but before I give you my examples, we need to make sure that you're not holding this concept on a God-like level.

I mean, if for anything I trot out as evidence, you just say, "no, you weren't really thinking that way deep down", or "you thought you were thinking that way, but it was an illusion brought about by the collection of your other experiences", then we might as well not even start.

Also, this doesn't all just boil down to a statement of "you always do what you decide to do."

You've led me to believe that your system holds together because, as agents of determinism are want to do, I actually always use logic and reasoning to make my decisions, and that on this basis the "determiner", whom you shall not name or ascribe attributes to, gives me this illusion of making choices, but actually predetermines everything.

How's that for a run on sentence?

Anyway, how we doin?

bdeg
05-07-2009, 11:44 PM
i'm not saying every decision is logical and/or well thought-out.

"maybe the emotional decisions you're making are sub-consciously weighed out in your mind. maybe you don't follow your 'logic', or the 'smart move', because you're trying to get laid, or looking for acceptance."

does that make sense? i think subconscious desires and fears definitely play into things

i think you're talking about that god guy..?

bdeg
05-08-2009, 01:12 AM
reasoning can just as easily be feeling overly lazy and weighing that against going to class
it's not just about picking the smart choice

Groves
05-08-2009, 06:45 AM
reasoning can just as easily be feeling overly lazy and weighing that against going to class
it's not just about picking the smart choice

It feels like we're going backwards here.

My recollection is that this branch of the conversation started because I was wondering what the role of logic was in your system because you were saying very logical things, and I wondered whether you would say those were a result of reasoning or 'destiny'.

You were kind to explain that reasoning and logic were the core of this 'destiny', and I was then confused because lots of life proceeds distinctly in opposition to the logic and reasoning of the individual.

Now it seems you're saying that logic doesn't always win, and that sometimes emotion wins, but you still call that 'reasoning'.

Help me see where I'm missing things.

hishighness
05-08-2009, 06:53 AM
Maybe it's like Forrest Gump thought and it's a little bit of both. ;)

bdeg
05-08-2009, 07:08 AM
maybe at one point one of us was too specific on the whole logic thing? it doesn't have to be a well-thought out decision, i would say we use our reasoning on some level before just about any complex action we make.
weighing emotions certainly helps us make decisions, they play into everything. if i implied otherwise it was unintentional

FAX
05-08-2009, 10:41 AM
Okay. I think the thing that we're missing here with all this "logic" and "reasoning" talk is that it doesn't take into account inborn gifts or skills.

It's easy to say that the decision about where to have dinner is made based on past experiences and resources inventoried prior to the point of decision. But what about the child prodigy? When a person can play Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 3 in D minor at the age of five, it's a good bet that he isn't going to grow up to work at Burger King. It's also pretty much assured that he didn't "acquire" that skill via prior experience, logic, reasoning, or from any other source in which man has a part.

One could argue that person's destiny is to play piano.

FAX

bdeg
05-08-2009, 11:02 AM
Okay. I think the thing that we're missing here with all this "logic" and "reasoning" talk is that it doesn't take into account inborn gifts or skills.

It's easy to say that the decision about where to have dinner is made based on past experiences and resources inventoried prior to the point of decision. But what about the child prodigy? When a person can play Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 3 in D minor at the age of five, it's a good bet that he isn't going to grow up to work at Burger King. It's also pretty much assured that he didn't "acquire" that skill via prior experience, logic, reasoning, or from any other source in which man has a part.

One could argue that person's destiny is to play piano.

FAX

that's exactly the point I originally made to third eye a couple pages back
i think it's a combination nature nurture

I understand that and agree with the general sentiment that many of our choices we 'make' are not by choice but by past. Here's the thing... we're all different going back to our genes, and we all make choices a little differently. While it's influenced by the past, not everyone would make the choice you did in your situation(so if you ask me, the choices still exist). Going back to the people growing up identically, I think even if you give them identical parents and events, their reactions and choices will differ.

bdeg
05-08-2009, 01:23 PM
at the moment you're born, with everyone currently in the world possessing the genes and experiences that will influence their future decisions, is there any way that there's more than one possible outcome? what you'll be exposed to is 'set' or 'determined' by the programming each individual already has. and you've got your genes that make you individual, so from an early age is it not a given what will happen to you and how you will react to it? and then those decisions and events influence future decisions and events from generation to generation

Groves
05-08-2009, 04:29 PM
at the moment you're born, with everyone currently in the world possessing the genes and experiences that will influence their future decisions, is there any way that there's more than one possible outcome? what you'll be exposed to is 'set' or 'determined' by the programming each individual already has. and you've got your genes that make you individual, so from an early age is it not a given what will happen to you and how you will react to it? and then those decisions and events influence future decisions and events from generation to generation

It's gattaca come true, then....

stevieray
05-08-2009, 04:40 PM
I know what you mean, Mr. FAX..I too look around and can't believe I'm here..I try not to think about it too much, rather just to do my best to not to screw it up...I think that's how you wake up one day and realize you've done okay...but just by living it and not worrying about it...

BWillie
05-08-2009, 04:56 PM
Kind of. I believe in temporal causality. It is destiny in a sense, but there is no benevolent agenda that comes with it. Everything happens the way it always has, and always will. What will occur in our lives can be predicted by mathematics if we had a way to code every variable in the universe and had a super computer. What will happen, will happen, and is what always will be. This technically means that you cannot control anything in your life, and you only have virtual will. You only feel like you can control your own destiny. But essentially it is just electrical impulses in your brain controlling what you "feel". All life and the universe really is, is energy going from a concentrated area to a lesser concentrated area until the heat death of the universe occurs. When this occurs nothing will ever happen again. It will be an infinite wasteland everywhere, all the time.

Groves
05-08-2009, 07:27 PM
It will be an infinite wasteland everywhere, all the time.

This reminds me greatly of my garage.

Groves
05-08-2009, 07:33 PM
I believe in temporal causality. It is destiny in a sense, but there is no benevolent agenda that comes with it.

You've got a great many people here and elsewhere that support this thinking. Kind of a "we're just a big machine" type of thinking.

I can see some of the benefits of this belief system, but I can't seem to let go of the idea of morality. Where does the sense of right/wrong come from in this system?

If we're all just acting (with virtual will, and not actual will), then how can anyone be blamed for their actions? Why should anyone be punished for anything?

The most heinous murderers are just kinda following their program, right?

The other hitch I can't find a way through is that some people actually prefer their marshmallows burnt to a crisp. I can't see this resulting from any mathematical equation.

bdeg
05-08-2009, 08:23 PM
You've got a great many people here and elsewhere that support this thinking. Kind of a "we're just a big machine" type of thinking.

I can see some of the benefits of this belief system, but I can't seem to let go of the idea of morality. Where does the sense of right/wrong come from in this system?

If we're all just acting (with virtual will, and not actual will), then how can anyone be blamed for their actions? Why should anyone be punished for anything?

The most heinous murderers are just kinda following their program, right?

The other hitch I can't find a way through is that some people actually prefer their marshmallows burnt to a crisp. I can't see this resulting from any mathematical equation.
Every event affects our future self in a tiny way, our experiences form us to make the decisions we do. you're asserting that every time we'd make the same decision. This may be true, but I think the value of choice lies in the fact that others wouldn't have made the same one
if your programming is bad other people should be protected from you. that's why people need to be held accountable for their actions, but it gets a lot hazier when you bring god into the question.
why would god make people with bad programming, you ask? whoa:doh!:
that's probably why most determinist theories don't contain god(correct me if i'm wrong)
for the record i'm not saying these are my hard core beliefs, i'm just theorizing