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View Full Version : Chiefs Line take and such.


Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 10:05 AM
Carl Sagan, probably the most famous astronomer since Galileo, once said "if you want to make apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." I've always liked that quote. It speaks to the fallacy of human egoism. Regardless of our perception of the situation, none of us ever truly does anything alone. If you drove to work alone today, you did so with the aid of the men and women that built your car. If along the way you read a street sign, you did so with the aid of your parents and teachers, who taught you to read. And if you're logged onto the internet and reading this article, I don't have to tell you how beholden you are to Al Gore.

I keep a watchful eye on first time head coaches and general managers. A lot of them want to make apple pie from scratch. A lot of them think they have the recipe. They've worked in the kitchens of some of the finest pastry chefs. They've learned a lot. Not enough to make apple pie from scratch, of course, but enough to really earnestly believe they can. They take that earnest belief into their new jobs, and sometimes they fall on their faces.

It's hard to fault them when they do. Coaching or managing a football team is intrinsically more difficult than coaching or managing a baseball or basketball team. The front office evaluates 53 active players rather than 25 or 15. There is no farm system or proper minor league. Age and injury are greater factors than in other sports. Cohesive team play is a greater factor too. It's a tough gig for even the most seasoned vets of the profession, let alone first timers.

That's why I'm scared as hell watching Scott Pioli and Todd Haley right now. I can't figure out if either one has the slightest clue what the hell they're doing.

During the Matt Millen era the Detroit Lions were the perennial laughing stock of the draft. Millen used three of his 10 first round picks on offensive tackles and four more on receivers. The common thread is that they consistently panned out poorly (though the jury is still out on Calvin Johnson and Gosder Cherilus). It's that level of stunning consistency (let's not forget that their 1st round quarterback and 1st round tailback mightily sucked as well) that gets a team to 0-16.

In the same time frame the Chiefs have used no less than eight high round picks on defensive linemen, and all for naught. The only top flight player they've produced in the interim was a happy accident in the 4th round. He's no longer with the team, as per the tradition of shedding the team's best player at the end of every season (see also: Willie Roaf, Will Shields, Priest Holmes, Tony Gonzalez). The Chiefs are addicted to questionable linemen the same way the Lions are addicted to questionable wideouts and left tackles.

The problem with defensive linemen, however, is that when a team has bad ones, they have no choice but to keep taking more. If a team is incapable of winning in the trenches, they are incapable of winning. That's precisely the reason I never once second guessed Herm Edwards' decision to sink a good part of the 2006, 2007, and 2008 drafts into fixing that issue--he had no choice. Hicks, Browning, and Dalton were old and Sims was bad. New blood was needed.

In the same vein, a part of me wants to justify Pioli and Haley taking Tyson Jackson and Alex Magee with high round picks. But I can't, and here's why. When Hali, McBride, Tyler, and Dorsey were selected, it was done so out of both design and necessity. All of them fit the implemented scheme and all of them replaced players who were old, bad, and/or career backups. At the present juncture, however, Pioli and Haley aren't replacing players who are old, bad, and/or career backups. They're replacing first, second, and third year players for whom, as with Detroit's Johnson and Cherilus, the jury is still out. The change is by design, but not at all by necessity.

The design, of course, is the somehow urgent rush to transition the defense from a 4-3 front to a 3-4, a scheme for which Tamba Hali, Turk McBride, Tank Tyler, and Glenn Dorsey are not ideally suited. Pioli seems to have forgotten that with Romeo Crennel in New England it took four full years to change schemes. Bobby Hamilton and Anthony Pleasant weren't ideally suited for the job, so the team phased them out over time, replacing them one by one with players that suited their burgeoning team concept. It was that skillful graduated transition that kept the defense afloat.

In Kansas City, however, there will be no graduation to the transition. The Chiefs will employ a 3-4 in 2009, and they will do so with 4-3 personnel. Tyler (too small) will line up at nose tackle. Dorsey (too short) will line up at defensive end. Hali (too slow) will line up at outside linebacker. Rounding out the starting front seven will be Derrick Johnson (never played in a 3-4), the aforementioned Tyson Jackson (rookie who has never played in a 3-4), Mike Vrabel (old as dirt), and Zach Thomas (older than Mike Vrabel, and with only one season in a 3-4). The likely backups will be Magee, McBride, Demorrio Williams, and Monty Beisel. Three of them have never played in a 3-4.

That doesn't sound like a recipe for success. It sounds like a recipe for making apple pie from scratch.

...

rad
05-07-2009, 10:17 AM
I like pie.

MOhillbilly
05-07-2009, 10:18 AM
expect to see lots of 4-3

blaise
05-07-2009, 10:26 AM
Carl Sagan ran like a 14.4 forty.

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 10:27 AM
Carl Sagan ran like a 14.4 forty.

Carl Sagan would make interesting Monday Night Football banter.

L.A. Chieffan
05-07-2009, 10:29 AM
Pioli is super genius.

DON'T FUCK WITH HIM.

blaise
05-07-2009, 10:38 AM
Carl Sagan would make interesting Monday Night Football banter.

Didn't he talk like he had a mouth full of spit all the time?

FAX
05-07-2009, 10:40 AM
"That receiver just ran billions and billions of yards."

FAX

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 10:44 AM
Didn't he talk like he had a mouth full of spit all the time?

...

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htismaqe
05-07-2009, 10:46 AM
This article is bullshit, plain and simple.

Matt Millen himself drafted ALL of those guys.

Pioli didn't draft Hali or Dorsey or McBride.

Todd Haley and Scott Pioli are essentially being blamed for Carl Peterson's failure.

FAX
05-07-2009, 10:48 AM
Well, in the writer's defense, we are migrating to a scheme for which we have few, if any, suitable players. And, we have drafted our asses off on d-line and continue to do so.

The move to the 3/4 is the issue, here. It may not be pretty.

FAX

Gdaddy
05-07-2009, 10:52 AM
Wasnt Jackson touted as the best 3-4 end in the draft?
Pioli and Haley cant and wont take credit for Hali, Dorsey or Tyler. No one should expect the team to have a complete turn around this season, assure you Pioli doesnt expect as much. I like the draft, they filled needs, not wants. They are not done dealing either, we have plenty of cap space and there will be significant cuts when June arrives. We must take baby steps here. If we win 4 games this year that is a huge improvement over the past two seasons. Totally new schemes on Offense and Defense.
We have to show them a little patience here.

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 10:56 AM
This article is bullshit, plain and simple.

Matt Millen himself drafted ALL of those guys.

Pioli didn't draft Hali or Dorsey or McBride.

Todd Haley and Scott Pioli are essentially being blamed for Carl Peterson's failure.

ROFL I shall relay your response to the author!

Coogs
05-07-2009, 10:59 AM
If we win 4 games this year that is a huge improvement


Something about that statement is just plan sad.

htismaqe
05-07-2009, 11:00 AM
Well, in the writer's defense, we are migrating to a scheme for which we have few, if any, suitable players. And, we have drafted our asses off on d-line and continue to do so.

The move to the 3/4 is the issue, here. It may not be pretty.

FAX

Starting over is the issue.

We should have done it 10 freaking years ago. Blaming Pioli and Haley for the fact that we spent 20 fucking years suffering with Carl Peterson is bullshit, plain and simple.

htismaqe
05-07-2009, 11:01 AM
The only line worth reading:

That doesn't sound like a recipe for success. It sounds like a recipe for making apple pie from scratch.

Of course we're making apple pie from scratch. It's kind of hard to make apple pie from the rotten peaches the previous regime left us.

htismaqe
05-07-2009, 11:15 AM
ROFL I shall relay your response to the author!

Your formatting is impeccable, sir. Good show I say! :D

T-post Tom
05-07-2009, 12:07 PM
That's why I'm scared as hell watching Scott Pioli and Todd Haley right now. I can't figure out if either one has the slightest clue what the hell they're doing.

:spock:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/super-bowl-ring.jpg
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/super-bowl-ring.jpg
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/super-bowl-ring.jpg

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 12:10 PM
:spock:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/super-bowl-ring.jpg
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/super-bowl-ring.jpg
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/super-bowl-ring.jpg

When did I say that? I want the date of that quote. Don't just go throwing shit out there.
And I didn't write this fucking article either.

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 12:22 PM
:spock:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/super-bowl-ring.jpg
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/super-bowl-ring.jpg
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/super-bowl-ring.jpg

"I'll take things that are completely fucking irrelevant to the Kansas City Chiefs as of this date in NFL History for $500, Alex"!

T-post Tom
05-07-2009, 12:22 PM
When did I say that? I want the date of that quote. Don't just go throwing shit out there.
And I didn't write this ****ing article either.

That's a direct quote from the article. I wasn't attributing it to you.

Brock
05-07-2009, 12:23 PM
the jury is still out on Calvin Johnson

No it isn't.

T-post Tom
05-07-2009, 12:24 PM
"I'll take things that are completely ****ing irrelevant to the Kansas City Chiefs as of this date in NFL History for $500, Alex"!


Dude, the author is questioning someone with 3 SB rings. I think I have a point. Might want to switch over to Sanka, bro. :)

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 12:26 PM
That's a direct quote from the article. I wasn't attributing it to you.

Very well then, sorry.

No it isn't.

I was gonna' say that myself, but I knew someone would come along and say "yes it is".
Yay.

jrowe
05-07-2009, 12:26 PM
What people, like the author of this article, fail to realize is that that you simply can't generalize 3-4 or 4-3. For example, the pats play a 2 gap 3-4. The cardinals played a 1 gap 3-4 similar to a 4-3 under. They are very different defenses. While the current personell is not suited to a 2 gap 3-4, they could thrive in a 1 gap 3-4, particularly with the addition of the rookie ends. This has been discussed ad naseum in other posts. Do we really need to ressurect this discussion again based on a misunderstanding of different defenses and how players may be used?

Fat Elvis
05-07-2009, 12:28 PM
The author of that article (and this thread for that matter) might very well be the biggest moron(s) on the face of the earth.

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 12:29 PM
Dude, the author is questioning someone with 3 SB rings. I think I have a point. Might want to switch over to Sanka, bro. :)

"Show Me The MONEY":

http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv252/raisedonriots/KCSuperBowlRing.png

Coogs
05-07-2009, 12:29 PM
The author of that article (and this thread for that matter) might very well be the biggest moron(s) on the face of the earth.A link would be nice, so we could see who is the author of the article.

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 12:30 PM
The author of that article (and this thread for that matter) might very well be the biggest moron(s) on the face of the earth.

He posts here, so feel free to tell him.

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 12:31 PM
A link would be nice, so we could see who is the author of the article.

Coming right up:

http://www.homeofthechiefs.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2570

Fat Elvis
05-07-2009, 12:31 PM
What people, like the author of this article, fail to realize is that that you simply can't generalize 3-4 or 4-3. For example, the pats play a 2 gap 3-4. The cardinals played a 1 gap 3-4 similar to a 4-3 under. They are very different defenses. While the current personell is not suited to a 2 gap 3-4, they could thrive in a 1 gap 3-4, particularly with the addition of the rookie ends. This has been discussed ad naseum in other posts. Do we really need to ressurect this discussion again based on a misunderstanding of different defenses and how players may be used?

Do you not realize the new levels of stupidity the author of this article manages to achieve time and time again?

T-post Tom
05-07-2009, 12:33 PM
"Show Me The MONEY":

http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv252/raisedonriots/KCSuperBowlRing.png

I think they're working on that. But you're going to have to wait until 9-13-09 to see the results. A watched pot never boils?

Coogs
05-07-2009, 12:34 PM
Coming right up:

http://www.homeofthechiefs.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2570

Thanks! Never heard of the dude.

Fat Elvis
05-07-2009, 12:34 PM
Coming right up:

http://www.homeofthechiefs.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2570

Surprise, surprise, surprise...another alias.:rolleyes:

alpha_omega
05-07-2009, 12:36 PM
Who is the mysterious writer in question?

Edit....I see it.

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 12:40 PM
Surprise, surprise, surprise...another alias.:rolleyes:

Elvis weeps in the Great Beyond every time you post.

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 12:41 PM
Thanks! Never heard of the dude.

You're welcome.

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 12:42 PM
I think they're working on that. But you're going to have to wait until 9-13-09 to see the results. A watched pot never boils?

We're gonna' win a Super Bowl against the Texans? Yay!!!!!!!!:D

Chiefnj2
05-07-2009, 12:52 PM
The author thinks the new GM and coach should have proudly continued Herm's scheme rather than implement their own. Hmm, losers of 23 of the last 25. Sounds like a model of efficiency. Clark must be an idiot for getting rid of Herm.

T-post Tom
05-07-2009, 12:52 PM
We're gonna' win a Super Bowl against the Texans? Yay!!!!!!!!:D

I think they're working on that. But you're going to have to wait until 9-13-09 to see the initial results. A watched pot never boils? And a SB isn't going to happen in just one season. But they're working on it.

FMODP [fixed my own damn post]

BTW, Scott Pioli says: "What are you staring at?!? I'm working on it!"
http://img.snlarc.jt.org/caps/characters/MiMy-Middle-Aged%20Man.jpg

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 12:53 PM
FMODP [fixed my own damn post]

BTW, Scott Pioli says: "What are you staring at?!? I'm working on it!"
http://img.snlarc.jt.org/caps/characters/MiMy-Middle-Aged%20Man.jpg

ROFL:thumb:

htismaqe
05-07-2009, 12:55 PM
The author thinks the new GM and coach should have proudly continued Herm's scheme rather than implement their own. Hmm, losers of 23 of the last 25. Sounds like a model of efficiency. Clark must be an idiot for getting rid of Herm.

The author also compared the Lions string of draft picks, ALL MADE UNDER THE SAME GM, to the Chiefs' string of defensive linemen even though we've changed GM's in that time.

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 12:56 PM
The author thinks the new GM and coach should have proudly continued Herm's scheme rather than implement their own. Hmm, losers of 23 of the last 25. Sounds like a model of efficiency. Clark must be an idiot for getting rid of Herm.

Are you saying that 4-3, using the talent we drafted( and drafted, and drafted, and drafted )for a 4-3, under the NEW coaching and direction of competent personnel is a "retarded" use of resources?

Interesting...

Chiefnj2
05-07-2009, 12:58 PM
The author also compared the Lions string of draft picks, ALL MADE UNDER THE SAME GM, to the Chiefs' string of defensive linemen even though we've changed GM's in that time.

I also don't know what the idiot means about shedding the best players every year and naming Roaf, Shields and Holmes. 2 retired because of age and one because of neck injuries.

Chiefnj2
05-07-2009, 01:00 PM
Are you saying that 4-3, using the talent we drafted( and drafted, and drafted, and drafted )for a 4-3, under the NEW coaching and direction of competent personnel is a "retarded" use of resources?

Interesting...

Yes.

Once you hire a new GM. You let him build the team as he sees fit. You don't handcuff him and tell him he must try his best to use the existing players, etc. If Pioli's plan calls for a 3-4, then let him build it the way he wants to. That's why you hired a GM in the first place.

Raised On Riots
05-07-2009, 01:01 PM
Yes.

Once you hire a new GM. You let him build the team as he sees fit. You don't handcuff him and tell him he must try his best to use the existing players, etc. If Pioli's plan calls for a 3-4, then let him build it the way he wants to. That's why you hired a GM in the first place.

True enough. Bring on the pudding.

htismaqe
05-07-2009, 01:12 PM
Yes.

Once you hire a new GM. You let him build the team as he sees fit. You don't handcuff him and tell him he must try his best to use the existing players, etc. If Pioli's plan calls for a 3-4, then let him build it the way he wants to. That's why you hired a GM in the first place.

THIS.

rad
05-07-2009, 01:44 PM
THIS.

LMAO...THISmaqe