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View Full Version : Royals Crisp vs. DeJesus at leadoff spot


petegz28
05-11-2009, 12:03 PM
Ok, I don't get this argument at all. I have heard a few on here and others such as Petro say we need to flip flop them. Why? I am not sure what it matters. Aside from the fact that it really only matters for 1 inning, (the first), DDJ cannot hold Crisp's jock right now as a leadoff hitter.

Most of you on here who follow the Royals know I am typically a big DDJ fan. But the fact is I cannot see how this helps the team at all? DDJ can't steal, can't work the pitcher and so far this season, cannot even hit. (see his latest 0-12 and stranding 11 runners, performance).

In fact I would have to argue that in the 2nd spot he should see better pitches, particularly if Crisp gets on base. I don't get this argument at all. And if something this trivial is what is causing DDJ to play like shit then he is not near as good as I thought.

Let's hear some toughts....

BigMeatballDave
05-11-2009, 12:07 PM
Awesome. Lets start off with a strike out every game. Coco is playing well there. They should leave it alone.

htismaqe
05-11-2009, 12:08 PM
Hmmm...I apparently haven't been paying enough attention, because I haven't even heard anybody suggest this.

I agree with you, swapping them in the order makes no sense at all, IMO.

Mr_Tomahawk
05-11-2009, 12:09 PM
What's a Crsip? :)

Demonpenz
05-11-2009, 12:10 PM
When switched the numbers are better lifetime for DDJ and COCO, over the year I think you get 36 more atbats when moved up a spot. I would leave it alone unless we go into a real tailspin and need to shake something up.

Fish
05-11-2009, 12:11 PM
Not even a question. Coco is what 5th in the league in walks right now? .369 OBP compared to DDJ's .278?

Not even a question.

acesn8s
05-11-2009, 12:13 PM
DDJ isn't as good as you thought.

Dr. Facebook Fever
05-11-2009, 12:13 PM
Crisp leads off. DDJ hits 8th or 9th in my world.

CoMoChief
05-11-2009, 12:15 PM
DDJ isn't a leadoff man, he can't steal worth a shit. Coco can. Leave him there.

Coco
DDJ
Teahen
Jacobs
Butler
Guillen
Callaspo
Buck
Aviles

BigMeatballDave
05-11-2009, 12:17 PM
What's a Crsip? :)Pete: Shut up!

DaKCMan AP
05-11-2009, 12:18 PM
Coco Crisp sucks.

Deberg_1990
05-11-2009, 12:20 PM
Who has the better OBP and takes more walks?

petegz28
05-11-2009, 12:21 PM
Who has the better OBP and takes more walks?

Tha tis what I say. Which is why I don't understand people like Petro saying htey need to flip-flop them

thurman merman
05-11-2009, 12:23 PM
Coco Crisp sucks.

at what? striking out?

thurman merman
05-11-2009, 12:24 PM
Awesome. Lets start off with a strike out every game.

actually, that's not a bad idea. that would prevent him from hitting into a double play after crisp walks.

DeezNutz
05-11-2009, 12:24 PM
When switched the numbers are better lifetime for DDJ and COCO, over the year I think you get 36 more atbats when moved up a spot. I would leave it alone unless we go into a real tailspin and need to shake something up.

.

What's not to understand?

acesn8s
05-11-2009, 12:25 PM
DDJ isn't as good as you thought.

OmahaChief
05-11-2009, 12:25 PM
I think that DDJ should start for another team. Maybe someone like the White Sox. Our ptichers would appreciate a guy that swings at bad pitches and with runners on base enjoys grounding into double plays.

Demonpenz
05-11-2009, 12:29 PM
.

What's not to understand?

The numbers are better I understand that, but I just have a good feeling that coco may get another at bat per game that means more seen pitches. I just like Coco setting the tone of the game right from the start, stats be damned, Coco also gives you more flexability what he can do since he is a Switch hitter that can bunt. I like coco in the lead off, but I wouldn't be heartbroken if they flip flopped.

WoodDraw
05-11-2009, 12:29 PM
David's OBP from 2004 on:

.360
.359
.364
.351
.366

He'll be fine.

petegz28
05-11-2009, 12:31 PM
David's OBP from 2004 on:

.360
.359
.364
.351
.366

He'll be fine.

Then why can't he get on base this year? I can't see how batting 2nd instead of 1st makes THAT much of a difference.

DeezNutz
05-11-2009, 12:32 PM
The numbers are better I understand that, but I just have a good feeling that coco may get another at bat per game that means more seen pitches. I just like Coco setting the tone of the game right from the start, stats be damned, Coco also gives you more flexability what he can do since he is a Switch hitter that can bunt. I like coco in the lead off, but I wouldn't be heartbroken if they flip flopped.

Yeah, I just quoted your post because you summed up the counter-argument well.

Crisp is going to be fine, regardless, and DDJ's career stats suggest he'll snap out of it. Of course, he's always been in the leadoff spot...

I know that some will argue that where one hits in the order shouldn't matter, and theoretically I agree with this. In practice, however, this really isn't the case b/c of the mental aspect of the game. Also, you do see different pitches based on where you're hitting, so there is some tangible difference, too.

petegz28
05-11-2009, 12:35 PM
DDJ has the 3rd worst OBP of our regular starters and is hitting .224.......I am not putting him in the leadoff spot.

petegz28
05-11-2009, 12:38 PM
In fact the only people with a worse OBP than DDJ is Gordon, Olivo, TPJ and Hernandez

WoodDraw
05-11-2009, 12:39 PM
Then why can't he get on base this year? I can't see how batting 2nd instead of 1st makes THAT much of a difference.

Because it's May? He's had a bad start to the season. Be a little patient and he'll be fine.

Batting 1st or 2nd makes no difference. For whatever reason, he's just in a slump. Shit happens.

Demonpenz
05-11-2009, 12:40 PM
Coco only leads of the inning once most the time anyway. We need a true #3 hitter. it would be interesting to hear what people think Siezmore should bat in cleveland, no way I have him lead off and take some pitches. I would trust that guy to get his pitch and park one. I love patience and all, but the first pitch of the game or early in the at bat you can get a cookie and hammer it.

DeezNutz
05-11-2009, 12:42 PM
Coco only leads of the inning once most the time anyway. We need a true #3 hitter. it would be interesting to hear what people think Siezmore should bat in cleveland, no way I have him lead off and take some pitches. I would trust that guy to get his pitch and park one. I love patience and all, but the first pitch of the game or early in the at bat you can get a cookie and hammer it.

Not just fuck but fucks yes.

petegz28
05-11-2009, 12:46 PM
Not just **** but ****s yes.

We have one...but he is batting in the #4 spot. Gordon was supposed to be the #3 guy but he can't hit the ball. The way Butler is hitting right now though I could see him in the #3 and move Teahen to #5.

Great Expectations
05-11-2009, 12:48 PM
over the year I think you get 36 more atbats when moved up a spot.

It is closer to 18 and probably slightly lower at the top of the order. There is one last batter out of 9 potential slots in each game. There are 162 games, so 162/9 = 18.

DeezNutz
05-11-2009, 12:50 PM
We have one...but he is batting in the #4 spot. Gordon was supposed to be the #3 guy but he can't hit the ball. The way Butler is hitting right now though I could see him in the #3 and move Teahen to #5.

In a much smaller sample size, you have faith in Butler? Yet DeJesus has been productive over the course of years, and you're worried in May?

OmahaChief
05-11-2009, 12:51 PM
We have one...but he is batting in the #4 spot. Gordon was supposed to be the #3 guy but he can't hit the ball. The way Butler is hitting right now though I could see him in the #3 and move Teahen to #5.

For me the problem with Butler hitting third is the fact he is a sloth on the bases. He has little chance to score from second on a single and has a knack for hitting into double plays. I dread having him come up with one out and a runner on first. It seems you can just about book what is about to happen. All that said I like Butler as a hitter but guys that slow need to mash like Steve Balboni did.

A good three hitter would be Gordon if the guy could ever get it together or I would like to see a guy like Teahan really grow more into that role.

Deberg_1990
05-11-2009, 12:54 PM
Ill bet Willie Wilson could suit up tonight and still smoke both these fools.

petegz28
05-11-2009, 12:54 PM
For me the problem with Butler hitting third is the fact he is a sloth on the bases. He has little chance to score from second on a single and has a knack for hitting into double plays. I dread having him come up with one out and a runner on first. It seems you can just about book what is about to happen. All that said I like Butler as a hitter but guys that slow need to mash like Steve Balboni did.

A good three hitter would be Gordon if the guy could ever get it together or I would like to see a guy like Teahan really grow more into that role.

I think he is as fast as DDJ! :D

Ari Chi3fs
05-11-2009, 12:58 PM
if anyone needs to be flipped right now, its Guillen and Butler

Demonpenz
05-11-2009, 01:01 PM
I think people think billy is slower than what he really is. There are slow people all over the majors. I would leave him alone for now he needs to prove his worth before he is handed the 3 hole. Knowing you are going to bat #3 every game in the show is a right that I think has to be earned. Plus the 3 hole does put more pressure on you. In the end if they threw in #3 it couldn't really hurt anything, our offense scares no one.

Fish
05-11-2009, 01:03 PM
Ill bet Willie Wilson could suit up tonight and still smoke both these fools.

Fuck yeah he could...

DeezNutz
05-11-2009, 01:04 PM
Teahen has been doing fine in the 3 hole. We don't need another revolving door, like we had last season.

Demonpenz
05-11-2009, 01:09 PM
Everything is going to be picked apart this year, because people think we can contend, so we are going to being microscoping this team to death. One thing I thought was funny as shit was when I started listening to sports radio 810 and they were breaking down the games, with same detail as today and every day shit was falling apart, then 04-06 just a disaster. I just think it is fun to have these debates when we are 50 games out of first/

Captain Obvious
05-11-2009, 01:25 PM
Crisp leads off. DDJ hits 8th or 9th in my world.

Mother F'ing This.

OmahaChief
05-11-2009, 03:50 PM
I think people think billy is slower than what he really is. There are slow people all over the majors. I would leave him alone for now he needs to prove his worth before he is handed the 3 hole. Knowing you are going to bat #3 every game in the show is a right that I think has to be earned. Plus the 3 hole does put more pressure on you. In the end if they threw in #3 it couldn't really hurt anything, our offense scares no one.

I totally disagree with Butler being slower than I think he is. I am sure you have seen this guy run the bases, not only is he slow he is a poor baserunner which does not help. He takes wide sweeping turns which slows him down even more. The fact this guy can never score from second on a base hit is really bothersome. We you think we have Guillen and Butler as our 4-5 and never of them can run a lick right now it does not help an offense. Combine this with Miggy and Jacobs the K brothers and DDJ and Buck as the J&B Double play factory it really hurts this offense.

I am starting to think this is just a poor mix of talent. Too many guys that are alike in skill sets. It is only a month into the season but if guys like Olivo, Jacobs, Aviles and DDJ don't cut down on the worthless at bats we will be hurting long term.

None of those cats are able to control their swing enough to move runners over. DDJ has in the past but this year not so much. None of them seem to know how to bunt. Aviles will damn near swing at anything outside or at his eyes this year. Jacob can mash and I think he could be a better hitter than he currently is he just needs to work on patience and I think he has made some progress with that. Olivo, well he is hopeless. He will always be a free swinger. That is not to mention Gordon who I hope we can attribute his sucking to being hurt. Of course the sample we got last year would lead you to attack him early in the count and then throw something low and outside to finish him off.

I really hope some of the young talent in the farm system pans out. Years of bad drafting is really costing this team. Here in Omaha I do not see much promise though. Kila looks OK but off to a slow start, Shealy is hitting but that is what he does, hits minor league pitching and craps himself in the bigs. Chris Lubanski looks decent this year and could get called up letter in the year if one of our OF go on the DL. The problem in the farm system is I do not think we have one legit power threat in the outfield, they all seem to be punch and judy hitters or pure speed guys.

BWillie
05-11-2009, 05:27 PM
Coco isn't going to walk like this all season. Players don't automatically start walking like Barry Bonds does just out of the blue, but I'm expecting his BA to go up, walking to go down, OBP to hopefully stay about the same. Coco is doing his job well as far as I'm concerned.

Deberg_1990
05-11-2009, 08:07 PM
Butler, for as big, slow and lumbering as he is, should be displaying alot more power for my taste.

wazu
05-11-2009, 08:30 PM
DDJ isn't a leadoff man, he can't steal worth a shit. Coco can. Leave him there.

Coco
DDJ
Teahen
Jacobs
Butler
Guillen
Callaspo
Buck
Aviles

Trey, is that you? It must be you, cause only you would have Callaspo batting in the 7th spot.

duncan_idaho
05-11-2009, 09:15 PM
Crisp in the leadoff spot is fine. DeJesus is slumping, and there are much better options right now. Drop DeJesus until he starts hitting again, then try him in the two-hole.

I'm a strong advocate that Callaspo needs to be hitting either second or third. Wasting that .350 average with Olivo/Buck and Aviles hitting behind him. Bloomquist needs to play more in RF, Jacobs needs to play never against lefties, Guillen needs to DH more.

Lineup, RH

Crisp - CF
Callaspo - 2B
Butler - 1B
Guilllen - RF
Teahen - 3B
Jacobs - DH
DeJesus - LF
Olivo/Buck - C
Aviles/Bloomquist - SS

Lineup, LH

Crisp
Bloomquist
Butler
Guillen
Teahen
Callaspo
DeJesus
Olivo/Buck
Aviles

I would also be a strong advocate of Trey Hillman ceasing to manage like Earl Weaver despite having a Whitey Herzog-style team...

DeezNutz
05-11-2009, 09:18 PM
I would also be a strong advocate of Trey Hillman ceasing to manage like Earl Weaver despite having a Whitey Herzog-style team...

Small ball in innings 1-4. Play for the big inning 5-9.

Trey being Trey.

Dude throws darts. He doesn't manage.

duncan_idaho
05-11-2009, 11:30 PM
Small ball in innings 1-4. Play for the big inning 5-9.

Trey being Trey.

Dude throws darts. He doesn't manage.

One of the reasons he isn't that impressive to me...

I about had a fit in the Twins series when the Royals had 1st and 2nd with no outs in a close game (beleve it was tied) and he didn't bunt them over. He never does that. In any situation.

Playing for the big inning works nice when you have 3 30 HR guys on your team, or five-six hitters around .300.

When you have neither, it leads to a lot more rally-killing outs than anything else...