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Count Zarth
05-13-2009, 07:29 AM
Seriously. He just landed a haymaker. They look dumb if you ask me.

http://kan.scout.com/2/864650.html

Since the NFL Draft, we’ve talked about the impact of Tyson Jackson, the potential of Colin Brown, and the proper pronunciation of Ryan Succop’s last name. As it turns out, KC's rookies have turned into a topic on a national level. Unfortunately, they have come under fire for their alleged character issues.

What character issues, you ask? To be honest, that’s what I want to know.

Without question, this discussion starts with Donald Washington (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3706714), the Ohio State cornerback taken by the Chiefs in the fourth round. Before the Buckeyes played in the 2007 national championship, a rumor surfaced that Washington and a fellow defensive back had been suspended for the game for an unspecified violation of team rules.

The rumor was proven untrue – at least at first. While the other player named in the story did face discipline, Washington played in the title game as scheduled. Several months later, however, it was announced he’d be suspended for the first two games of the 2008 season.

Since the details around the suspension aren’t public knowledge, it’s not entirely clear as to whether Washington was being punished for what happened in late 2007 or for some separate transgression. According to a report in the Columbus Dispatch, Washington appealed his rumored suspension prior to the title game with LSU, so perhaps the punishment was held over until the next season.

Whatever the case may be, the bottom line is that Washington was suspended two games for a rules violation. That incident is a valid topic when discussing character concerns, and it’s not something the Chiefs are shying away from. Washington’s issues were addressed by Todd Haley.

But forget Washington, what about the rest of KC’s rookie class? Did the Chiefs draft other players with similarly questionable profiles?

According to some national outlets, the answer is allegedly, “yes.”

This issue began with a blurb that appeared in Pro Football Weekly. While praising Kansas City’s draft as “outstanding,” writer Nolan Nawrocki penned the following:

“Character questions forced DT Alex Magee (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4106676) and CB Donald Washington to slip, but both possess clear starter potential.”

We’ve covered Washington, but this is the first – and, to my knowledge, the only – mention of any Magee character issues. As a contrast, taken from NFL.com, here’s a brief Magee bio:

“The consummate team player, Magee volunteered to move to defensive end from his familiar defensive tackle position when injuries depleted the depth at that position in 2008. Learning a new position was sort of a baptism under fire for the former right tackle who also had to switch sides, moving over to left end.

While his numbers did not stand out like in previous seasons, he also provided valuable leadership for a young, but inexperienced defensive unit in head coach Joe Tiller's final season. It was Magee's task to serve as the unit's policeman, making sure that everyone was positioned right and knew their assignments. Policing the defense was appropriate for the senior, who hopes to one day work for the Federal Bureau of Investigation or the Drug Enforcement Agency.”

As it specifically relates to his character, CBSSports.com printed the following:

“Magee is a quiet sort who shows good maturity. The coaches say he is pleasant, respectful and a good mentor for the team's younger players. He made a personal sacrifice moving to defensive end as a senior, especially since it did not help him fine tune some of the technique work he needed to work on against double teams as a defensive tackle.”

Those descriptions don’t sound like a player who slipped due to character concerns. Since this appears to be the only notable reference to any Magee issues, one has to wonder if PFW simply made a mistake and confused him with another player.

It’s been known to happen. To cite one of many such examples, after USC offensive lineman Drew Radovich (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4176341) went undrafted last year, it was mentioned on the NFL Network that teams had backed away from him because of character issues and alleged off-field incidents. However, it turned out to be a case of mistaken identify, and it was later clarified that teams shied away from Radovich because of a back injury.

Now we have a pair of columns that have appeared in recent days on the National Football Post.

Michael Lombardi (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=1604013) is a former personnel guru who spent 20 years in the NFL, most recently with the Raiders and Broncos. Once his time behind the scenes came to an end, he became a notable media personality due to appearances on NFL Network and his internet writings. During draft weekend, you may recall him reporting the quickly-disputed story that the Chiefs and Matt Cassel (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4210794) had agreed on a long-term contract.

Over the weekend, Lombardi included this blurb in his column:

“Based on my conversations, the Kansas City Chiefs draft has many league executives curious – not about the quality of the draft, as that will take some time to determine, but about the character element, a signature and requirement of the building of the New England Patriots. The fact that the Chiefs selected some players with off-the-field issues has executives asking me, how does character fit in Kansas City now?”

Don’t you love the way that’s phrased? Just think – Pioli has so much influence around the league that Kansas City is right on the tip of everyone’s tongue. Executives from other teams can’t help talking about the Chiefs, openly wondering what the team is doing and what Pioli’s methods are.

But in that brief snippet, Lombardi makes two interesting claims - that more than one of the Chiefs’ rookies have “off-the-field issues,” and that avoiding such players was a major component in building the New England dynasty.

Unfortunately, because Lombardi only spoke in the vaguest possible terms, we can’t examine that first claim. He didn’t bother to mention who those questionable characters are or what issues they may have been involved in.

However, those blanks were filled in on Monday by fellow NFP writer Matt Bowen. In a column questioning whether Pioli is ignoring the character element, Bowen unloaded some truly damning criticisms against the Chiefs’ rookies.

Prepare yourself – this is rough stuff!

According to the lone source Bowen cited, Chiefs running back Javarris Williams (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4200983) apparently “rubbed some people wrong on the recruiting trail.” Tight end Jake O’Connell supposedly “never took to coaching” and “always relied on his atheltic (sic) ability and never put in the work on the practice field.” Then there’s 175-pound wide receiver Quinten Lawrence, who allegedly has a “questionable work ethic in the weight room.”

Sounds like quite a dubious collection of rogue elements, doesn’t it? It’s worth noting that Magee wasn’t mentioned, and – quite clearly – if there was even the slightest red flag on his record, it would have been included to beef up the case.

It’s also worth noting that Bowen declined to point out which rounds those players were taken in. They were sixth and seventh-round picks. Perhaps it didn’t seem prudent to acknowledge they were players who will struggle just to make the final roster.

Bowen summed up the selection of Washington and those three late-round picks by stating “the Chiefs and Pioli shouldn’t be compared with the Bengals when it comes to their current draft class – yet.”

Perhaps when Lawrence’s weight room habits cause him to develop a rap sheet as extensive as Chris Henry (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4223524)’s, we’ll finally be able to make that comparison?

The absurdity of this speaks for itself. I’d describe how laughable it is to mention something like Lawrence’s weight-room work ethic in the same breath as the criminal conduct the Bengals have become known for, but it’s really not that funny. The association is terribly insulting to Williams, O’Connell and Lawrence. Their reputations have been tarnished.

All of this character talk is being raised in an attempt by NFP to prove a larger point – that Pioli is turning his back on what he did with the Patriots. In fact, Bowen stated outright in his column that “I don’t remember an instance in New England when Pioli took a player that has (sic) some red flags attached to his name.”

What about Randy Moss (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4309679)? Bowen acknowledged Moss as an exception to the rule, so we’ll set him aside. But what about Corey Dillon? A known malcontent and alleged “locker room cancer” during his days with Cincinnati, the Patriots didn’t just acquire Dillon, they traded a second-round pick for him in 2004. However, the same rationale Bowen used to dismiss Moss – that the Patriots told him “shape up or you’re out” – can probably be applied to Dillon, so we’ll set him aside, too.

How about Rodney Harrison (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3694725)? Widely considered one of the dirtiest players in football, Harrison was signed by the Patriots as a free agent in 2003. But other than a little HGH use, Harrison hasn’t run into any off-field problems, so maybe he shouldn’t count, either.

On the topic of performance-enhancing drugs, John Welbourn also had a brief stay in New England. Despite being suspended twice for steroid use during his time in Kansas City, the Patriots picked up Welbourn after the Chiefs cut him in 2008, though he was released before the season began.

Of course, all of these examples involve veterans. What we’re really talking about here are rookies, so let’s examine that issue.

In 2000 the Patriots used a third-round pick on running back J.R. Redmond, who was involved in a rather strange situation at Arizona State. Due to the overly restrictive NCAA rules against athletes receiving improper benefits, Redmond learned that his use of a female athletic department employee’s cell phone might have opened him up to sanctions.

In an attempt to avoid punishment, Redmond and the woman flew to Vegas and got married, creating a loophole he hoped would protect him. An NCAA investigation quickly followed, the woman was fired from her job, and accusations surfaced that she may have been doing Redman’s class assignments for him. The two divorced shortly after the wedding and Redmond ended up serving a one-game suspension.

While he may not have been guilty of anything more than extremely bad judgment, Redmond’s issues far outweigh anything cited about Williams, Lawrence, and O’Connell.

In 2002 the Patriots used a seventh-round pick on running back Antwoine Womack (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=1277913). During his time at Virgina, Womack was convicted twice on misdemeanor assault charges, with one case involving battery against a female. Washington’s two-game suspension at Ohio State pales in comparison to Womack’s baggage.

More recently, the Patriots used their first-round pick in 2007 on safety Brandon Meriweather (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4309677). While attending college at Miami, Meriweather was involved in two notable incidents. The first was a shooting in which Meriweather drew his gun and fired at an assailant in self-defense. The second occured during an on-field brawl between Miami and Florida International in which Meriweather attempted to stomp on fallen FIU players. He was suspended.

We can also point to the recent 2009 draft – the same one Pioli and the Chiefs are being questioned over – in which the Patriots used a third-round pick on North Carolina receiver Brandon Tate. Tate failed his drug test at the NFL combine, reportedly testing positive for marijuana. Why isn’t Belichick being questioned for abandoning his principles?

Incidentally, there have also been a handful of players drafted by the Patriots during the Pioli/Belichick era – names like Kenyatta Jones, Dexter Reid (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2385974), Nick Kaczur (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4309667), Willie Andrews (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=2287) – who have run afoul of the law in the years since they came into the league. One can only assume that a few of those players had a red flag or two along the way.

So where does that leave us? It seems that not only is the NFP citing incredibly flimsy evidence in support of their point, the case they’re attempting to argue isn’t even accurate. The Patriots didn’t deal exclusively in eagle scouts and choir boys during Pioli’s tenure. Apart from Washington, there appears to be no valid reason to consider any of the Chiefs’ rookies a character risk.

Yet the writers at NFP would have us believe that these aren’t merely their own theories – you see, they’re talking to other people in the league who are raising these same questions. In light of the evidence presented here, does that even sound the slightest bit believable?

Theories have already popped up about why the NFP may have a bone to pick with Pioli, with the denial over Cassel’s contract leading the way. But the point here is that until more credible evidence surfaces to back any of these claims, the notion of the Chiefs drafting problem players appears to be completely overblown.

MOhillbilly
05-13-2009, 07:36 AM
none of this will mean a thing once the season starts.


Edit- not that it means anything now.

milkman
05-13-2009, 07:46 AM
........the notion of the Chiefs drafting problem players appears to be completely overblown.

Overblown?

How about fabricated?

Halfcan
05-13-2009, 07:54 AM
nice article

BigCatDaddy
05-13-2009, 08:16 AM
nice article

Mike Lombardi looked like an ass this morning on the Boarder Patrol. He said Washington tested positive and the combine, but had nothing to back it up. He just said "that's just what I heard". He then said a friend of Matt's told him he signed the 6 year-36 million dollar deal and he is standing by that. He looked like a real idiot.

Coogs
05-13-2009, 08:34 AM
Gretz beat him to the punch by a full day...

http://www.bobgretz.com/chiefs-football/tuesday-morning-cup-o%e2%80%99chiefs-33.html

Count Zarth
05-13-2009, 08:36 AM
Gretz's wasn't nearly as insightful. His best "contribution" to the story was coming down hard on a poor 22-year old kid.

BTW, did Mike Lombardi have his last name changed to give him more credibility? I can't see where else he gets it.

Coogs
05-13-2009, 08:38 AM
Gretz's wasn't nearly as insightful. His best "contribution" to the story was coming down hard on a poor 22-year old kid.

Still a day late. If roles were reversed, I'm pretty sure the WPI gang would be out in full force saying they were in first.

Skip Towne
05-13-2009, 08:47 AM
Did anyone actually read all of that WPI tripe?

Count Zarth
05-13-2009, 08:48 AM
Still a day late. If roles were reversed, I'm pretty sure the WPI gang would be out in full force saying they were in first.

What's a day late? The unabashed ripping of a hard-working kid who didn't deserve it? Gretz added nothing to the story other than to blame the wrong person.

Coogs
05-13-2009, 08:52 AM
Did anyone actually read all of that WPI tripe?


No.

King_Chief_Fan
05-13-2009, 08:54 AM
What's a day late? The unabashed ripping of a hard-working kid who didn't deserve it? Gretz added nothing to the story other than to blame the wrong person.

ROFLROFLROFL
warpaint beat to the punch....warpaint sucksROFL

chiefforlife
05-13-2009, 08:57 AM
Its like I read this, yesterday...

milkman
05-13-2009, 08:58 AM
Did anyone actually read all of that WPI tripe?

I did.

WPI sucks for the most part, but Michael Ash is pretty solid.

Count Zarth
05-13-2009, 08:59 AM
Its like I read this, yesterday...

Except, you didn't. All you read was Gretz ripping some poor guy at the NFP that had nothing to do with the real story.

King_Chief_Fan
05-13-2009, 09:02 AM
Except, you didn't. All you read was Gretz ripping some poor guy at the NFP that had nothing to do with the real story.

ROFLROFL keep telling yourself thatROFL

Count Zarth
05-13-2009, 09:03 AM
ROFLROFL keep telling yourself thatROFL

Do you see the part in bold at the end? Completely new.

htismaqe
05-13-2009, 09:32 AM
Gretz's wasn't nearly as insightful. His best "contribution" to the story was coming down hard on a poor 22-year old kid.

BTW, did Mike Lombardi have his last name changed to give him more credibility? I can't see where else he gets it.

There's nothing INSIGHTFUL about either of them.

Everybody knew it was bullshit from the beginning - the Patriots have drafted a HALF DOZEN players with "red flags" over the years.

You can't land a haymaker 48-hours after a knockout was already scored, especially when you weren't in the ring, you were in the audience.

htismaqe
05-13-2009, 09:33 AM
Who cares about Gretz?

We talked about this when the ORIGINAL ARTICLE came out.

ON MONDAY.

Chiefnj2
05-13-2009, 09:38 AM
Except, you didn't. All you read was Gretz ripping some poor guy at the NFP that had nothing to do with the real story.

Not true. Gretz provided a lot more insight than that. First, Gretz reached out to an actual scout to see if that scout had character concerns with any of the players.

Then Gretz pointed out potential reasons why Lombardi may be taking shots at Pioli:

"here’s something else at work here. This smoke that went up was not caused by any fire, so that means somebody is trying to start one. I poked around the smoldering pile of poo dropped by the nationalfootballpost and came up with two possibilities.

One, Lombardi is ticked off that his scoop on the Cassel contract got shot down. He ended up looking bad and he may blame Pioli. So here’s a chance to get even, by plastering a little smear on the draft class. Two, Pioli just cleaned house in the Chiefs personnel department and there may be a backlash against those moves within the personnel community. Guys like Bill Kuharich, Chuck Cook and Bruce Lemmerman have been around a long time and they have a lot of friends in the business. Maybe some of those friends don’t feel those guys were treated very well by Pioli. Maybe they are standing up for their buddies. Or maybe it’s an issue that hasn’t reared its head yet."

FD
05-13-2009, 09:43 AM
Why is anybody still talking about this?

htismaqe
05-13-2009, 09:44 AM
Why is anybody still talking about this?

Because WPI didn't have anything else to print so they decided to play the "me too" game 2 days too late.

htismaqe
05-13-2009, 09:45 AM
First, Gretz reached out to an actual scout to see if that scout had character concerns with any of the players.

Good point, forgot about that.

Then Gretz pointed out potential reasons why Lombardi may be taking shots at Pioli:

I think this part was pretty obvious to most of us.

Count Zarth
05-13-2009, 09:46 AM
Not true. Gretz provided a lot more insight than that.

Not really. The jist of his article was "fuck this 22-year old."

At least Michael actually focused on the facts.

DaKCMan AP
05-13-2009, 09:49 AM
Not really. The jist of his article was "**** this 22-year old."

At least Michael actually focused on the facts.

And Claythan takes another bite of the man-sausage..

milkman
05-13-2009, 09:53 AM
I did think Gretz failed to look at the Patriot drafts over the years and address the character issues of some of those picks, and this article does that.

The fact that this is WPI is the primary reason, hell, the only reason that it is being critisized so much.

Well, get the fuck over it.

Ash did a good job here, regardles of the fact that it is a day later than Gretz.

Count Zarth
05-13-2009, 09:54 AM
I did think Gretz failed to look at the Patriot drafts over the years and address the character issues of some of those picks, and this article does that.

The fact that this is WPI is the primary reason, hell, the only reason that it is being critisized so much.

Well, get the fuck over it.

Ash did a good job here, regardles of the fact that it is a day later than Gretz.

Oh yeah, well FUC-

Oh, nevermind. :clap:

King_Chief_Fan
05-13-2009, 09:57 AM
Do you see the part in bold at the end? Completely new.

ROFLyou still aren't convincing anyone and you still don't get itROFL

htismaqe
05-13-2009, 09:57 AM
Not really. The jist of his article was "**** this 22-year old."

At least Michael actually focused on the facts.

Focusing on facts and providing INSIGHT are two completely different things.

htismaqe
05-13-2009, 09:59 AM
I did think Gretz failed to look at the Patriot drafts over the years and address the character issues of some of those picks, and this article does that.

Nevermind the fact that we talked about the Patriots and the players they drafted with issues here, and it was all over sports radio, ON MONDAY.

I've enjoyed some of Michael's stuff, but this is the equivalent of writing an article today about the swine flu. It was over 48 hours ago.

milkman
05-13-2009, 10:17 AM
Nevermind the fact that we talked about the Patriots and the players they drafted with issues here, and it was all over sports radio, ON MONDAY.

I've enjoyed some of Michael's stuff, but this is the equivalent of writing an article today about the swine flu. It was over 48 hours ago.

I missed the discussions here, and I don't live in KC, so I didn't hear it on the radio.

This is the first time I've seen the specifics about the Patriots' draft refuted, though I was aware of the fact that it was BS.

And if it's the first time I'm seeing it, then you can bet there are a hell of a lot more seeing it for the first time.

The fact that he adreesses these later than others have doesn't make it a bad article, and doesn't make it irrelevant.

wild1
05-13-2009, 10:19 AM
bold, unbold, bold, underline, bold... looks like a piece of junk mail

htismaqe
05-13-2009, 10:26 AM
I missed the discussions here, and I don't live in KC, so I didn't hear it on the radio.

This is the first time I've seen the specifics about the Patriots' draft refuted, though I was aware of the fact that it was BS.

And if it's the first time I'm seeing it, then you can bet there are a hell of a lot more seeing it for the first time.

The fact that he adreesses these later than others have doesn't make it a bad article, and doesn't make it irrelevant.

I never said it was bad or irrelevant.

It's just not insightful, primarily because it's not timely.

T-post Tom
05-13-2009, 10:38 AM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=207566&highlight=lombardi

Gretz reported it first, but this article compliments Gretz's piece with some additional info. Gretz is an easy target for some, but his story came first and had good content.

I think the real question here is why Lombardi seems to have a hard-on for Pioli. First the false report on the Cassel contract and now this. I agree that the Cassel story could have been a factor in other teams' reluctance in trading for the Chiefs' first round pick. If you want Sanchez, why deal with the Chiefs if it appears that they just signed their QBOTF? (Unless you thought the Seahags wanted him.) The timing of that story's release also makes it suspicious. Of course, this is just speculation at this point. And this story on the Chiefs' draft choices seems even more deliberate. Coincidence? Or does Lombardi have an ax to grind with Pioli (Chiefs)?

Claythan, start digging on Lombardi and report back with your findings.

Chiefnj2
05-13-2009, 11:15 AM
It's funny seeing WPI attack the credibility of another internet football site. What comes around goes around.

Let's not forget:

WE GET CHASTISED FOR CITING NICK ATHAN
Posted by Mike Florio on February 4, 2009, 2:07 p.m. EST

I’ve known Nick Athan of Warpaint Illustrated for several years, and I’ve never regarded him as a questionable source of Chiefs news.

But that might be a result of the fact that I don’t pay much attention to the Chiefs.

With Athan’s report that Chiefs owner Clark Hunt recently said that the team has complied with the Rooney Rule when in fact Hunt never has said any such thing, we’ve now got serious concerns.

Our concerns became even more pointed upon receiving moments ago the following IM from Jason Whitlock: “LEAVE NICK ATHAN ALONE. . . total assclown. ASSCLOWN.”

Raised On Riots
05-13-2009, 12:01 PM
I tired of the Chiefs giving a damn about whether or not these kids go to Church on Sunday.
Draft winners and WIN.

Count Zarth
05-13-2009, 12:03 PM
I tired of the Chiefs giving a damn about whether or not these kids go to Church on Sunday.
Draft winners and WIN.

Just once I'd like a football player to throw up the horns after scoring a TD and yell into the camera "HAIL SATAN!"

BigCatDaddy
05-13-2009, 12:04 PM
Does anyone know if Michael Lombardi is Hamas?

Raised On Riots
05-13-2009, 12:07 PM
Just once I'd like a football player to throw up the horns after scoring a TD and yell into the camera "HAIL SATAN!"

Find that Family Guy clip of Peter playing with the Patriots. ;)

Jilly
05-13-2009, 12:12 PM
Who didn't have character issues in college.....let's wait til they are actually playing, have the power and the money, before we go off on character.

Basileus777
05-13-2009, 12:25 PM
It's a pretty good article, even if it is a rehash of what Gretz wrote with some extra info.

SNR
05-13-2009, 02:40 PM
Out of curiosity, how DO you pronounce Succop's name? I've always said "Soo-cahp" because that sounds like the eastern european way to say it, which is where I'm guessing the the name comes from. But I've heard people say "Suck-up" which just sounds bad.

SNR
05-13-2009, 02:42 PM
I tired of the Chiefs giving a damn about whether or not these kids go to Church on Sunday.
Draft winners and WIN.
It's old, but...
http://blog.internetnews.com/apatrizio/orly_owl.jpg

BigRock
05-13-2009, 03:04 PM
Still a day late. If roles were reversed, I'm pretty sure the WPI gang would be out in full force saying they were in first.

I'm surprised Claythan hasn't mentioned this, but a day or so after he wrote about Jackson and Magee stopping the run, Gretz wrote a column with the same theme on the Chiefs' site.

LOL JR Redmond. I'd forgotten all about that.

Count Zarth
05-13-2009, 03:07 PM
I'm surprised Claythan hasn't mentioned this, but a day or so after he wrote about Jackson and Magee stopping the run, Gretz wrote a column with the same theme on the Chiefs' site.


I really didn't mind. This shit isn't breaking news. It's just commentary.

EyePod
05-13-2009, 03:50 PM
I think that this article is great, but I do have to bring up a point about WPI...

THE DEAL IS DONE

EyePod
05-13-2009, 03:51 PM
Just once I'd like a football player to throw up the horns after scoring a TD and yell into the camera "HAIL SATAN!"

I always wanted to say "Satan Bless you" after someone sneezed...

Count Zarth
05-13-2009, 04:04 PM
I think that this article is great, but I do have to bring up a point about WPI...

THE DEAL IS DONE

Schefter was wrong, too.

And yet no one is talking about it.