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jidar
05-13-2009, 04:49 PM
This seems a bit excessive. What do you think? Excessive force?

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His account of events:

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Halfcan
05-13-2009, 05:03 PM
typical cops

Pablo
05-13-2009, 05:06 PM
At least they didn't put out their pistols and leave him

hole-y!

HEY-O.

Tuckdaddy
05-13-2009, 05:10 PM
Some people are just plain mean and evil. What a bunch of bastards. Straight to hell with them.

Stanley Nickels
05-13-2009, 05:22 PM
I am nothing of a "radical" in either direction, nor a conspiracy theorist. I'm generally VERY moderate and common sense.

And I usually roll my eyes at people who argue "it's my constitutional right to not obey you" who then get manhandled by cops.

But I feel more and more every day like I'm living in a police state. I hear about things like this all the damn time anymore.

Saulbadguy
05-13-2009, 05:23 PM
Where's your god now? HUH?

Count Zarth
05-13-2009, 05:28 PM
God bless.

petegz28
05-13-2009, 05:36 PM
If he was an illegal they would have let him go....

Valiant
05-13-2009, 05:37 PM
Some cops unfortunately let the power go to their heads that they can do no wrong..

If he did get the confession on tape of the cop saying that he has a good case with the other evidence..

Saul Good
05-13-2009, 05:37 PM
I've said it before, but it bears repeating. Our government has gotten so far out of whack that there is going to be a widespread public backlash, and it's not going to be pretty. Civil disobedience isn't just for radicals anymore.

Over-Head
05-13-2009, 05:39 PM
What did rev Bob expect when he tried to "faith heal" a cop by wacking him in the head with a bible :rolleyes: :D

Fritz88
05-13-2009, 05:50 PM
But I feel more and more every day like I'm living in a police state. I hear about things like this all the damn time anymore.


Lately I hear about them every other day.

Was it happening at the same rate before, but we did not have access to videos and records? or did they just suddenly increase?

Micjones
05-13-2009, 05:53 PM
I feel more and more every day like I'm living in a police state. I hear about things like this all the damn time anymore.

It's time to keep your eye on the ball.

RJ
05-13-2009, 06:02 PM
I am nothing of a "radical" in either direction, nor a conspiracy theorist. I'm generally VERY moderate and common sense.

And I usually roll my eyes at people who argue "it's my constitutional right to not obey you" who then get manhandled by cops.

But I feel more and more every day like I'm living in a police state. I hear about things like this all the damn time anymore.


It takes a certain type of person to be a cop.

I think everyone would agree with that.

bango
05-13-2009, 06:21 PM
I hate to do this, but I have to side with the Cops until they went over the line with the beating. When he said that he refused to answer any of there questions I knew that he was in the wrong. You can tell from his attitude that he is an idiot. He was probably being difficult from the minute that they pulled him over. He was a prick that gave them reason to go all out on him, and now he is crying foul. I have to go on the record as not being very fond of most Cops also. If he is a real Pastor then he should know that he is to set an example. He is to obey the Law withoit question. It is one of the pillars of his faith. His God's Son specifically said to give to the fed's what is the fed's or Ceasar's, and to God what is God's. He may think that his Faith's Holy Book is just talking about Tithe, and taxes, but I have to doubt it. Many people know how to act around the Law, and I am not sure that he does because of his attitude. It sucks, but it is life.

doomy3
05-13-2009, 06:26 PM
Some of the comments in youtube claim that he does this all the time at checkpoints looking for trouble. Who knows if that is true or not, but if it is, then what a douche.

JOhn
05-13-2009, 07:06 PM
Damn, that explains why Pastormike hasn't been posting a lot lately

Bwana
05-13-2009, 07:14 PM
Jessy Jackson will be along shortly to raise hell about this.......wait.

ClevelandBronco
05-13-2009, 07:18 PM
...VERY moderate...

That's sort of a contradiction, sport.

DTLB58
05-13-2009, 08:01 PM
They started asking me questions and I refused to answer their questions.

They wanted to search my vehicle and I refused them to search my vehicle.

And he wonders why he brought suspicion on? What a jerk.

Kinda makes me wonder if he didn't set up the whole thing since he cammed it all from inside his car.

Was there excessive force? U betcha.

Did he provoke them? U betcha.

bango
05-13-2009, 08:08 PM
The guy is flat out crazy. Read some of this crap. This is what is wrong with many churches today.

http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/page9.html

BigChiefFan
05-13-2009, 08:37 PM
Actually, BY LAW, you have the RIGHT to REMAIN SILENT.

petegz28
05-13-2009, 08:43 PM
They started asking me questions and I refused to answer their questions.

They wanted to search my vehicle and I refused them to search my vehicle.

And he wonders why he brought suspicion on? What a jerk.

Kinda makes me wonder if he didn't set up the whole thing since he cammed it all from inside his car.

Was there excessive force? U betcha.

Did he provoke them? U betcha.


I don't know the guy's history but just because a cop wants to search your car doesn't mean he has the Right too or you have to let him.

PastorMikH
05-13-2009, 09:13 PM
Damn, that explains why Pastormike hasn't been posting a lot lately


Cops here tried that with me today, I beat them down. 3 of them and a dog to boot. Tried 'tazing me, they really freaked out when I started smiling when the voltage hit, they upped the voltage and a smiled more. Then I snapped and went off on them. One officer fired a 9mm round at me, the bullet bounced off my chest and hit another officer in the leg. Sure hope he's ok.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to being back home tommorow so I can waste more of my time here.

:)



Oh, and for the record, the cops were way out of line here IMO, but at the same time if you won't cooperate at all, at least part of the treatment he got is guaranteed to happen with any cops.

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 03:37 AM
The border patrol are not "normal" cops, didn't even watch the video yet - just wanted to point that out. It's like a war zone on the border (hell, we have seriously contiplated putting marines on the border) and I don't even want to know how bad it CAN be. That being said; anyone that goes looking for trouble and finds it (no matter to me, how wrong the other party could be) deserves what they get.

now, maybe I'll watch the video......

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 03:47 AM
The video starts with a half of the story that the "pastor" wants us to see.....
if his face was "completely covered in blood" then why wasn't the marks on his face bigger? how do we know that the marks on his face the next day were totally from the border patrol? Why didn't he comply with the officers from the start (whenever, or however long before we see the start of this video) How come we don't see the rest of his video, if he's so innocent, why didn't he post the rest of it?

Listen, people. STOP trying to get on national TV for your 5 minutes of fame, DO listen to the authority figure in a situation. They have so much to deal with as it is, why do you want to add to it? What does it benefit us as a nation?

The border patrol already has to deal with child porn, drugs, terrorists - do they really HAVE to worry about someone that is only trying to make something out of nothing?

SERIOUSLY, THE ONLY THING THAT IS GOING TO COME OF THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR IS SHOWING THE CHILD PORN PEDDLERS/DRUG DEALERS/TERRORISTS A WAY TO BEAT OUR NATIONAL SECURITY, AND GET THROUGH THE BORDER TO DO HARMFUL THINGS TO OUR COUNTRY, IT'S PEOPLE AND OUR CHILDREN.

It's just sensless to me in the big picture. fuck this guy....

jidar
05-14-2009, 06:47 AM
I hate to do this, but I have to side with the Cops until they went over the line with the beating. When he said that he refused to answer any of there questions I knew that he was in the wrong. You can tell from his attitude that he is an idiot. He was probably being difficult from the minute that they pulled him over. He was a prick that gave them reason to go all out on him, and now he is crying foul. I have to go on the record as not being very fond of most Cops also. If he is a real Pastor then he should know that he is to set an example. He is to obey the Law withoit question. It is one of the pillars of his faith. His God's Son specifically said to give to the fed's what is the fed's or Ceasar's, and to God what is God's. He may think that his Faith's Holy Book is just talking about Tithe, and taxes, but I have to doubt it. Many people know how to act around the Law, and I am not sure that he does because of his attitude. It sucks, but it is life.

Either you have to answer their questions by law or you don't. If you don't, then that's it. If the police have respect for the laws of the land then they should honor them and not hide behind the stress of the difficulties of their job.

Alphaman
05-14-2009, 07:04 AM
It seemed to me that he was asking what their probable cause was to question him and search his car. He then asked under what charges he was being arrested. Maybe I'm naive, but those seem like reasonable questions. It also seems reasonable to ask what indication the dog gave that there were either drugs or a body in his trunk, especially if the dog didn't bark.

Surely they went ahead and searched his car after the tasered him and drug him out of the car. So here's a question: Did they find any drugs or a body? If not, then the whole dog indication thing lacks credibility.

That being said, at the point it became obvious the police officer was going to break the window (i.e. telling him to close his eyes), wisdom would say to back off, get out of the car and try to cooperate. He already had enough documentation that his rights were being violated.

Finally, the fact that he is a minister or a Christian does not mean that he needs to give up his constitutional rights. Again, maybe I'm naive, but it seemed as though he was questioning whether or not his rights were being violated.

Jilly
05-14-2009, 08:09 AM
At least they didn't put out their pistols and leave him

hole-y!

HEY-O.


ROFLROFLROFLROFL

Detoxing
05-14-2009, 08:15 AM
Jessy Jackson will be along shortly to raise hell about this.......wait.

Nice. Lol
Posted via Mobile Device

Brock
05-14-2009, 08:30 AM
A lot of cops are just assholes with a power complex, obviously. That's why you should just do what they tell you and argue about it later.

T-post Tom
05-14-2009, 08:36 AM
You will not win a violent confrontation with the police. So here's a few quick rules for a non-violent engagement with law enforcement (blantantly lifted from the interwebs with a few modifications):

1. Pull to the side of the road or into a well-lit area like the parking lot of a shopping center. Remain in the car unless instructed otherwise.

2. Roll down the driver's side window. Keep your hands visible by placing both on the 11:00 and 1:00 positions of the steering wheel.

3. Show some respect. Address officer as "officer", "ma'am", or "sir". Be polite. Smiling doesn't hurt. Speak when spoken to. Be short and direct. The officer's stern demeanor isn't personal. You don't know what he has been dealing with, so assume nothing.

4. Advise the officer immediately if you are carrying a weapon. Some states have "carry laws," which grants permits to individuals to carry a concealed weapon.

5. Answer all questions asked by the officer. Comply with requests. You can argue your case later w/o the experience of being tazed or beaten.

6. Sign the ticket if one is issued. Your signature is not an admission of guilt.

7. Continue to be polite and remain calm, even if you're angry or frustrated about being pulled over. Humble yourself, and even if you receive a citation, say "Thank you."

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 08:40 AM
If the dog alerted on the vehicle, there was their probable cause, and they DID tell him that. He went looking for trouble.....well congrats to him, he found it.

Bob Dole
05-14-2009, 08:53 AM
7. Continue to be polite and remain clam, even if you're angry or frustrated about being pulled over. Humble yourself, and even if you receive a citation, say "Thank you."

One should probably NOT choose to be shellfish in this situation.

T-post Tom
05-14-2009, 08:55 AM
One should probably NOT choose to be shellfish in this situation.

Would you quit squidding around?

jAZ
05-14-2009, 08:57 AM
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Pants
05-14-2009, 08:57 AM
If the dog alerted on the vehicle, there was their probable cause, and they DID tell him that. He went looking for trouble.....well congrats to him, he found it.

You should probably watch the video first.

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 09:00 AM
You should probably watch the video first.

the 10 second mark....he was told that the dog alerted on his vehicle

seclark
05-14-2009, 09:04 AM
the 10 second mark....he was told that the dog alerted on his vehicle

i bet that dog was a Lutheran.
sec

Demonpenz
05-14-2009, 09:10 AM
Would you quit squidding around?

sorry bad halibit

outhega
05-14-2009, 09:12 AM
It seems to me that the first half of the footage showed the pastor in his car with both windows rolled up. The officer with the tazer goes to the passenger side, breaks the window and immoblizes the pastor. At that point the video cuts to the official border patrol camera that shows another officer swinging his night violently.

We are to suppose that the officer is beating the pastor with his night stick but I suppose that since up to that point only one window had been broken and the pastor was immobalized by the tazer that he was actually breaking the drivers side window to get the door open and remove the pastor from the car. Once the door is open and pastor is out and n the ground nobody swings or beats on him.

And a night stick can and would have done a lot more damage than what is shown on the pastors face.

Bob Dole
05-14-2009, 09:12 AM
Here's his wife's blog.

http://www.stevenandersonfamily.blogspot.com/

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 09:13 AM
sorry bad halibit

that was a very crappie pun

Mr. Flopnuts
05-14-2009, 09:21 AM
I hate to do this, but I have to side with the Cops until they went over the line with the beating. When he said that he refused to answer any of there questions I knew that he was in the wrong. You can tell from his attitude that he is an idiot. He was probably being difficult from the minute that they pulled him over. He was a prick that gave them reason to go all out on him, and now he is crying foul. I have to go on the record as not being very fond of most Cops also. If he is a real Pastor then he should know that he is to set an example. He is to obey the Law withoit question. It is one of the pillars of his faith. His God's Son specifically said to give to the fed's what is the fed's or Ceasar's, and to God what is God's. He may think that his Faith's Holy Book is just talking about Tithe, and taxes, but I have to doubt it. Many people know how to act around the Law, and I am not sure that he does because of his attitude. It sucks, but it is life.

I wondered how long it would take. Not long.

Mr. Flopnuts
05-14-2009, 09:21 AM
They started asking me questions and I refused to answer their questions.

They wanted to search my vehicle and I refused them to search my vehicle.

And he wonders why he brought suspicion on? What a jerk.

Kinda makes me wonder if he didn't set up the whole thing since he cammed it all from inside his car.

Was there excessive force? U betcha.

Did he provoke them? U betcha.

Totally. If a cop pulls you over and asks you to suckle his penis, by God, you should do it. The cop said so.

Mr. Flopnuts
05-14-2009, 09:23 AM
A lot of cops are just assholes with a power complex, obviously. That's why you should just do what they tell you and argue about it later.

As disgusting as it is, this is absolutely correct.

T-post Tom
05-14-2009, 09:30 AM
Totally. If a cop pulls you over and asks you to suckle his penis, by God, you should do it. The cop said so.

Let's not go overboard.

mikey23545
05-14-2009, 09:33 AM
I am nothing of a "radical" in either direction, nor a conspiracy theorist. I'm generally VERY moderate and common sense.

And I usually roll my eyes at people who argue "it's my constitutional right to not obey you" who then get manhandled by cops.

But I feel more and more every day like I'm living in a police state. I hear about things like this all the damn time anymore.

Chains you can believe in.

InChiefsHell
05-14-2009, 09:40 AM
LOL at the Chris Rock video.

I dunno, when I get pulled over, it's yes sir (or ma'am) and do what you are told. Within reason. I'm not going to suck the cops dick or anything.

Sounds like the pastor was looking for trouble anyway. WTF carries a video cam in their car and has it rolling when the cops on the border stop you? It's the border. It's fuggin' crazy. They said their dog locked onto the car for some reason. Get out of the car and let them look. Why is that so fuggin' difficult.

ChiTown
05-14-2009, 09:41 AM
You will not win a violent confrontation with the police. So here's a few quick rules for a non-violent engagement with law enforcement (blantantly lifted from the interwebs with a few modifications):

1. Pull to the side of the road or into a well-lit area like the parking lot of a shopping center. Remain in the car unless instructed otherwise.

2. Roll down the driver's side window. Keep your hands visible by placing both on the 11:00 and 1:00 positions of the steering wheel.

3. Show some respect. Address officer as "officer", "ma'am", or "sir". Be polite. Smiling doesn't hurt. Speak when spoken to. Be short and direct. The officer's stern demeanor isn't personal. You don't know what he has been dealing with, so assume nothing.

4. Advise the officer immediately if you are carrying a weapon. Some states have "carry laws," which grants permits to individuals to carry a concealed weapon.

5. Answer all questions asked by the officer. Comply with requests. You can argue your case later w/o the experience of being tazed or beaten.

6. Sign the ticket if one is issued. Your signature is not an admission of guilt.

7. Continue to be polite and remain calm, even if you're angry or frustrated about being pulled over. Humble yourself, and even if you receive a citation, say "Thank you."

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's fucking amazing to me how gawdamn stupid people really choose to be. If the guy wasn't such an ahole, he'd have been on his way probably 15-30 minutes later. But, no. He wanted to prove a point and be a tough guy. Well, he got, imo, exactly what he deserved. What a dumbfug.ROFL

mikey23545
05-14-2009, 09:44 AM
I am nothing of a "radical" in either direction, nor a conspiracy theorist. I'm generally VERY moderate and common sense.

And I usually roll my eyes at people who argue "it's my constitutional right to not obey you" who then get manhandled by cops.

But I feel more and more every day like I'm living in a police state. I hear about things like this all the damn time anymore.

Chains you can believe in.

Mr. Flopnuts
05-14-2009, 09:47 AM
Let's not go overboard.

Seriously, where do you draw the line? When is it ok to say no to a cop? Because I'm convinced there are people on this board who think they're all angels.

tooge
05-14-2009, 10:03 AM
Yeah, the cops were wrong for the excessive force. However, this douchebag was asking for it. Fourth ammendment or not, why wouldn't you answer their questions and let them look in the trunk? Dumbass deserved it, but the cops should get shit canned as well.

Chiefnj2
05-14-2009, 10:14 AM
You can pretty much piece together what probably happened. He's coming through border check and is being a wise-ass, not answering questions, etc. Border police get annoyed with him and bring the dog over and say the dog is acting funny, when in reality it probably wasn't, but it gives them reason to ask him to exit the vehicle, etc.

He refuses to exit, acts smug, pisses them off further, etc. Then he turns on the camera and acts all innocent asking reasonable questions. At this point the police are fed up with him and their tempers are short. They aren't going to bring the dog back with the camera running because the dog probably won't do anything out of the ordinary other than lick its own balls. They can't even give him a reason for why he's being detained other than to say he isn't following their present order. They don't really have reasonable suspicion (not that I'm sure any is needed at a border crossing) for anything other than Rule 1: Show a wise ass who is boss and who is wearing the badge. I have no sympathy for anyone in the video.

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 10:18 AM
Let's not go overboard.


you do realize this is ChiefsPlanet, ie.
overboard; it is inevitable

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 10:20 AM
Yeah, the cops were wrong for the excessive force. However, this douchebag was asking for it. Fourth ammendment or not, why wouldn't you answer their questions and let them look in the trunk? Dumbass deserved it, but the cops should get shit canned as well.


where was the excessive force, I don't see any in that video. Seriously, I don't.

except in the title of the video where it literally says "excessive force"

Pants
05-14-2009, 10:26 AM
the 10 second mark....he was told that the dog alerted on his vehicle

Once again, watch the video. Apparently the dog did NOT alert anybody about anything.

Brock
05-14-2009, 10:26 AM
where was the excessive force, I don't see any in that video. Seriously, I don't.

except in the title of the video where it literally says "excessive force"

Of course you don't. There isn't any position you won't contort yourself into to excuse bad behavior by cops.

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 10:28 AM
Once again, watch the video. Apparently the dog did NOT alert anybody about anything.

he was told that it did....is there proof somewhere that it didn't?

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 10:28 AM
Of course you don't. There isn't any position you won't contort yourself into to excuse bad behavior by cops.


That is not true. But let's look at this video, the far away camera angle you see one cop make a few swings with his asp, I'm here to tell you, that he was not hitting that pastor, no way, no how.

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 10:29 AM
Once again, watch the video. Apparently the dog did NOT alert anybody about anything.


how do you know this?

Chiefnj2
05-14-2009, 10:29 AM
While 9 officers were removing this idiot from his car, how many semi's filled with marijuana and illegals drove straight by laughing.

Brock
05-14-2009, 10:29 AM
That is not true. But let's look at this video, the far away camera angle you see one cop make a few swings with his asp, I'm here to tell you, that he was not hitting that pastor, no way, no how.

Throwing the guy down on the pavement, tasering him repeatedly, and 4 of them kneeling on him isn't excessive?

Chiefnj2
05-14-2009, 10:29 AM
That is not true. But let's look at this video, the far away camera angle you see one cop make a few swings with his asp, I'm here to tell you, that he was not hitting that pastor, no way, no how.

He said he was tasered several times while on the ground. If that is true, I would say it was excessive.

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 10:30 AM
He said he was tasered several times while on the ground. If that is true, I would say it was excessive.

yet you don't see that in the video

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 10:32 AM
Throwing the guy down on the pavement, tasering him repeatedly, and 4 of them kneeling on him isn't excessive?

He said he was tasered several times while on the ground. If that is true, I would say it was excessive.

was he still struggling with the cops and not following their direction? Because I don't know that, so I don't know if it's excessive or not. It doesn't appear excessive to me, just trying to make sure this nut job isn't going to do something stupid or unsafe to harm himself or any of the border patrol.

I do know that this guy apparently has an agenda, and that's the first clue why we shouldn't trust him, his statements or the video he puts out.

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 10:35 AM
While 9 officers were removing this idiot from his car, how many semi's filled with marijuana and illegals drove straight by laughing.

No shit, it's the border patrol, the job there is a bit higher on our nation's priority than say - driving 10 miles an hour over the posted speed limit. And yet this guy doesn't seem to be innocent in all of this. The whole thing stinks of him wanting his five minutes of fame, and this is the best he could come up with.

Pitt Gorilla
05-14-2009, 11:02 AM
Of course you don't. There isn't any position you won't contort yourself into to excuse bad behavior by cops.He's the patteau of cops.

Bob Dole
05-14-2009, 12:27 PM
yet you don't see that in the video

You can hear the discharge more than once.

Pants
05-14-2009, 12:30 PM
how do you know this?

They wouldn't bring the sniffer back out to show it to the state troopers? If you're defending what these cops did, you need to re-think your whole outlook on what you, as an American, stand for....

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 12:33 PM
You can hear the discharge more than once.

you can hear the taser discharge twice, but he has yet to be taken to the ground or even out of teh vehicle (at least the best I can tell, since you can't see at that point)......the post I referred to claimed he was tasered muliple times while already on the ground

raybec 4
05-14-2009, 12:39 PM
They wouldn't bring the sniffer back out to show it to the state troopers? If you're defending what these cops did, you need to re-think your whole outlook on what you, as an American, stand for....
How very enlightened of you to make such informed decisions upon just the word of the alleged victim. Has anyone seen a comment from the border patrol or the Arizona DPS on this or is the ministers word now gospel?

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 12:40 PM
They wouldn't bring the sniffer back out to show it to the state troopers? If you're defending what these cops did, you need to re-think your whole outlook on what you, as an American, stand for....

as best as I can tell, the troopers never asked them to bring the dog out again. It had already done its job.....the guy was looking for trouble and he found it.

Questioning what anyone stands for as an American based on this is about as assinine as you can get. I spent damn near 22 years on active duty in the Army and have been through a half-dozen deployments, so I'm pretty sure of where I stand. I think your opinion on this is off base, but I'll fully support your right to your own beliefs.

chasedude
05-14-2009, 12:47 PM
Heh, Probable Cause. These two words seem to trump the 4th amendment anymore.

Micjones
05-14-2009, 12:48 PM
Hopefully you won't think it's excessive when you're face down for observing the rights afforded to you by the Constitution.

Mr. Flopnuts
05-14-2009, 12:48 PM
If you're told to suck the cock. Suck the cock. If you don't, you're just asking for trouble. Seriously, where do we draw the line? What was the probable cause? Did they find anything? If not, it wasn't justified. Period.

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 12:52 PM
Heh, Probable Cause. These two words seem to trump the 4th amendment anymore.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

If the dog alerted on the car, then the search would not have been unreasonable. Therein lies the problem with your argument.

Micjones
05-14-2009, 12:55 PM
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

If the dog alerted on the car, then the search would not have been unreasonable. Therein lies the problem with your argument.

I guess so long as you conveniently avoid the tidbit about them not finding anything.
But, the dog alerted them so... Must be reasonable.
:rolleyes:

T-post Tom
05-14-2009, 01:00 PM
If you're told to suck the cock. Suck the cock. If you don't, you're just asking for trouble. Seriously, where do we draw the line? What was the probable cause? Did they find anything? If not, it wasn't justified. Period.

Hindsight is 20/20. If the dog alerted, then they were within reason to search the car. Did the dog alert? That's the real question. And nobody will ever know, except the BPAs. Too bad the video quality wasn't better, so as to validate or invalidate the gentleman's additional claims of brutality.

As for your preoccupation with sucking the cock, well that's your business. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

Pants
05-14-2009, 01:00 PM
How very enlightened of you to make such informed decisions upon just the word of the alleged victim. Has anyone seen a comment from the border patrol or the Arizona DPS on this or is the ministers word now gospel?

Well, considering the fact they found NOTHING, I''m willing to believe the pastor when he says the dog didn't bark. Not that much of a stretch my friend.

Garcia Bronco
05-14-2009, 01:02 PM
Actually, BY LAW, you have the RIGHT to REMAIN SILENT.


Sssssh. I can't believe it took that many posts to have this posted. There is nothing you can do as a citizen to deserve physical violence from armed tax collector...er...I mean police officer short of threatening them with violence.

Pants
05-14-2009, 01:02 PM
Hindsight is 20/20. If the dog alerted, then they were within reason to search the car. Did the dog alert? That's the real question. And nobody will ever know, except the BPAs. Too bad the video quality wasn't better, so as to validate or invalidate the gentleman's additional claims of brutality.

As for your preoccupation with sucking the cock, well that's your business. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

Are you retarded? The dogs are trained to bark their assess off when they smell something. There was nothing to smell, so I'm willing to bet the dog didn't indicate shit.

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 01:05 PM
Well, considering the fact they found NOTHING, I''m willing to believe the pastor when he says the dog didn't bark. Not that much of a stretch my friend.

actually, they don't generally bark....they sit and stare at whatever they alert on.

I had one alert on a car I was driving once and they found nothing then either (as I was pretty sure they wouldn't since I had owned the car for quite some time) but the idea is the same IN MY MIND. The dog alerting gave the police probable cause to search even though I knew they wouldn't find anything.

T-post Tom
05-14-2009, 01:11 PM
Hopefully you won't think it's excessive when you're face down for observing the rights afforded to you by the Constitution.

I've been pulled over/stopped by an amped up cop more than once over the years. In one instance, the cop had gotten into an altercation at a sobriety check point shortly before stopping me. (And who knows what other $hit he had to deal with that night.) So for whatever reason his testosterone must have still been pretty high, because he wasn't very polite. I could have taken offense and been verbally combative if I had choose to. But instead I just smiled and told the officer that "I'm really glad to see you officers out here making the streets safe from drunk drivers." The guy smiled and thanked me. I was on my way in the blink of an eye. No taser, no beatdown, no jail. Common sense.

Pants
05-14-2009, 01:11 PM
actually, they don't generally bark....they sit and stare at whatever they alert on.

I had one alert on a car I was driving once and they found nothing then either (as I was pretty sure they wouldn't since I had owned the car for quite some time) but the idea is the same IN MY MIND. The dog alerting gave the police probable cause to search even though I knew they wouldn't find anything.

Oh ok, different training method, I guess.

I've witnessed police sniffing dogs going off like crazy, that was in a different country though.

Pants
05-14-2009, 01:13 PM
I've been pulled over/stopped by an amped up cop more than once over the years. In one instance, the cop had gotten into an altercation at a sobriety check point shortly before stopping me. (And who knows what other $hit he had to deal with that night.) So for whatever reason his testosterone must have still been pretty high, because he wasn't very polite. I could have taken offense and been verbally combative if I had choose to. But instead I just smiled and told the officer that "I'm really glad to see you officers out here making the streets safe from drunk drivers." The guy smiled and thanked me. I was on my way in the blink of an eye. No taser, no beatdown, no jail. Common sense.

That just means you're not a dick. It doesn't change the fact that what happened to the pastor was completely and utterly wrong. That's the kind of shit that happens in other countries that aren't quite as developed as this one where the policemen hold absolute power over any citizen.

chasedude
05-14-2009, 01:16 PM
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

If the dog alerted on the car, then the search would not have been unreasonable. Therein lies the problem with your argument.

You're taking the officer's word for it, that the dog gave probable cause? I'm sorry that's just a bullshit way out of it.

A friend of mine left the bar he was working at and got pulled over on the way home. He asked the officer why he was pulled over and he replied "You just left a bar." Now, is this probable cause to pull him and run field sobriety tests? NO! and for the record, he doesn't drink when he works.

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 01:20 PM
You're taking the officer's word for it, that the dog gave probable cause? I'm sorry that's just a bullshit way out of it.


Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but you're taking the word of the other guy that the dog didn't (actually he just said IIRC that he didnt see it). In this case yes, forced to choose I would take the word over the handfull of officers over that of the other person.

T-post Tom
05-14-2009, 01:21 PM
Are you retarded? The dogs are trained to bark their assess off when they smell something. There was nothing to smell, so I'm willing to bet the dog didn't indicate shit.

No sir, I'm not retarded. And not all police dogs are "trained to bark their asses off" when alerting. I think you may be posting under a gross misapprehension of police procedure. There are "aggressive" alerts and "passive" alerts. Even the "aggressive" alert doesn't normally involve excessive barking. They normally dig at the location with their paws. The "passive" alert often has the dog sitting when contraband is discovered. I hope that helps you understand the situation more clearly.

Garcia Bronco
05-14-2009, 01:24 PM
Are you retarded? The dogs are trained to bark their assess off when they smell something. There was nothing to smell, so I'm willing to bet the dog didn't indicate shit.

Yeah. Those dogs go nuts. And if the dog smelled drugs he's be on the car. Another thing too is I wasn't aware the dogs sniff for dead bodies without the a scent from that person. That's a new one on me.

raybec 4
05-14-2009, 01:26 PM
Are you retarded? The dogs are trained to bark their assess off when they smell something. There was nothing to smell, so I'm willing to bet the dog didn't indicate shit.

As a matter of fact they are most generally NOT trained to bark but to either sit down or paw the item in question.

I am not defending either side of this but will say I have only heard one side of this which is not even close to enough info to say who I believe. The cops may have been excessive in their use of force, but to impede these officers in the execution of their duties by not answering simple questions or following instructions just because you can doesn't make much sense.

Inspector
05-14-2009, 01:26 PM
A buddie of mine tried to tell me that the police had to have probable cause to search your car. He argued with me when I told him, "No they don't".

The police make the determination if the dog is "alerting", which means they can say "he's alerting" whenever they want and search whoever they want whenever they want. I even had a cop tell me that.

Sometimes I think that certain policemen have forgotten who works for who.

Where do you think you are, United States? Get real....

SPATCH
05-14-2009, 01:27 PM
police can not be trusted..... many are the last people in the world that should be wielding the power that they are given.... for fuck's sake... kid's that can't get into college view law enforcement as a viable alternative... are you fucking kidding me? we're giving guns to complete morons...

abuse of power is rampant in law enforcement.... my mother was the mayor of my hometown when i was in high school and i got to hear some absolute horror stories about "the boys in blue"... what a fucking joke

T-post Tom
05-14-2009, 01:30 PM
Yeah. Those dogs go nuts. And if the dog smelled drugs he's be on the car. Another thing too is I wasn't aware the dogs sniff for dead bodies without the a scent from that person. That's a new one on me.


Ummm....not so much. http://www.drug-dog.info/default.asp

raybec 4
05-14-2009, 01:30 PM
Yeah. Those dogs go nuts. And if the dog smelled drugs he's be on the car. Another thing too is I wasn't aware the dogs sniff for dead bodies without the a scent from that person. That's a new one on me.

There are dogs trained to do just that, the don't search for one specific human just humans in general, dead or alive. Some dogs aretrained to search for people in disasters or human residue at a crime scene.

ChiTown
05-14-2009, 01:30 PM
police can not be trusted..... many are the last people in the world that should be wielding the power that they are given.... for ****'s sake... kid's that can't get into college view law enforcement as a viable alternative... are you ****ing kidding me? we're giving guns to complete morons...

abuse of power is rampant in law enforcement.... my mother was the mayor of my hometown when i was in high school and i got to hear some absolute horror stories about "the boys in blue"... what a ****ing joke

For every dick head cop, there are thousands of really good cops. But, you know what, keep generalizing. It's what you "sort of people" do best.

chasedude
05-14-2009, 01:30 PM
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but you're taking the word of the other guy that the dog didn't (actually he just said IIRC that he didnt see it). In this case yes, forced to choose I would take the word over the handfull of officers over that of the other person.

Oh that's right, we're guilty until proven innocent. I feel sorry for whom ever gets you on their jury.

T-post Tom
05-14-2009, 01:31 PM
As a matter of fact they are most generally NOT trained to bark but to either sit down or paw the item in question.

I am not defending either side of this but will say I have only heard one side of this which is not even close to enough info to say who I believe. The cops may have been excessive in their use of force, but to impede these officers in the execution of their duties by not answering simple questions or following instructions just because you can doesn't make much sense.


http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8894/kaneklapqo6.gif

Pants
05-14-2009, 01:34 PM
Oh that's right, we're guilty until proven innocent. I feel sorry for whom ever gets you on their jury.

He would make a perfect little citizen in a totalitarian state.

Mr. Flopnuts
05-14-2009, 01:45 PM
For every dick head cop, there are thousands of really good cops. But, you know what, keep generalizing. It's what you "sort of people" do best.

I agree with this. But I do think that there should be psychological testing throughout their careers. Many of them get jaded from the job and should move into a desk position after a few years of doing it.

Understand, I'm the first one that jumps their shit when this happens, but I really blame the system in place more so than the officers involved. Most of us have absolutely no concept of the complete, and utter shit that these guys deal with on a day to day basis.

Mr. Flopnuts
05-14-2009, 01:47 PM
The cops may have been excessive in their use of force, but to impede these officers in the execution of their duties by not answering simple questions or following instructions just because you can doesn't make much sense.

America isn't America anymore if everyone has to do what you think makes sense. I don't disagree with you on this either. I too think it was a dumb move. But it's his right to refuse to answer simple questions if he's done nothing wrong. Because the fact of the matter is, if he's not breaking the law, it's none of their fucking business what he's doing. Isn't America great?

Pitt Gorilla
05-14-2009, 01:50 PM
But, you know what, keep generalizing. It's what you "sort of people" do best.Was that intentionally ironic?

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 01:51 PM
He would make a perfect little citizen in a totalitarian state.

You have already proven on this thread that you know not of what you speak (the viciously barking drug dog), so I'll not get into a pissing contest about it.

I believe you have a very ignorant view on this, but I fully support your right to have an opinion.

Pants
05-14-2009, 02:04 PM
You have already proven on this thread that you know not of what you speak (the viciously barking drug dog), so I'll not get into a pissing contest about it.

I believe you have a very ignorant view on this, but I fully support your right to have an opinion.

The officers were justified in breaking the windows, tasering him and cutting his face up because he refused to let them search his car for no reason, k.

They placed him under arrest for "not listening to a police officer."

ChiTown
05-14-2009, 02:10 PM
Was that intentionally ironic?

Noooooooooooooo.

L.A. Chieffan
05-14-2009, 02:11 PM
you don't need a warrant to search a car

ChiTown
05-14-2009, 02:22 PM
For some perspective on my point of view:

Just in the KC area, I have 2 Brothers who were/are cops, 1 nephew who is a cop and 3 uncles (all retired) who were cops.

Of those 6 data points, none of those guys are morons, bad eggs, degenerates, lacking morals, or all-around God-Complexed power hungry Rambo's. All 6 of them are good people, who are/were serving their cities, and doing it for a meager wage (given the risk).

If it comes across that I am sensitive to this subject, you would be correct. I get sick of people generalizing cops in a bad way, when I know damn well that it's a small group that have blackened the eye of the majority.

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 02:35 PM
They wouldn't bring the sniffer back out to show it to the state troopers? If you're defending what these cops did, you need to re-think your whole outlook on what you, as an American, stand for....

If you're defending what this asshat and others like him did/do, I suggest you look in the mirror there, buddy.

Micjones
05-14-2009, 02:43 PM
Common sense ought to dictate a few things to you.
As long as ALL people are fallible...
There will always be both good and bad cops.

Garcia Bronco
05-14-2009, 02:43 PM
you don't need a warrant to search a car

Yeah ya do unless there is probable cause. IMO a dog sitting isn't probable cause no matter how trained it's claimed to be.

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 02:44 PM
I am not defending either side of this but will say I have only heard one side of this which is not even close to enough info to say who I believe. The cops may have been excessive in their use of force, but to impede these officers in the execution of their duties by not answering simple questions or following instructions just because you can doesn't make much sense.


Are you kidding? this is Conclusion Planet, everyone knows cops are always wrong, when you only have some of the information. JEEZ :rolleyes:


Seriously, I've said what you are saying everytime this topic comes up, and now you're going to see someone say I always defend cops with only half the information too.

Garcia Bronco
05-14-2009, 02:46 PM
Police come in all shapes and forms, but it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch. Good cops know about these bad cops and rarely do anything about it.

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 02:47 PM
Common sense ought to dictate a few things to you.
As long as ALL people are fallible...
There will always be both good and bad people.

FYP

you don't need a warrant to search a car


Yeah ya do unless there is probable cause. IMO a dog sitting isn't probable cause no matter how trained it's claimed to be.

to be clear, a dog is Probable cause, so is plain sight, and inventory incident to arrest, all ways to see what's in the car. So to be really CLEAR, don't break the fucking law....

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 02:48 PM
Police come in all shapes and forms, but it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch. Good cops know about these bad cops and rarely do anything about it.


There's no proof, other than the one man with an agenda, to conclude these border patrol agents are "bad apples"
-oh and Bull Shit on the not doing anything about it. That's pretty ignorant.

Micjones
05-14-2009, 02:49 PM
FYP

Cops are people, no?

Garcia Bronco
05-14-2009, 02:51 PM
There's no proof, other than the one man with an agenda, to conclude these border patrol agents are "bad apples"
-oh and Bull Shit on the not doing anything about it. That's pretty ignorant.

I've seen it. There are no absolutes though. I didn't say every good cop lets the bad cops get away with bullshit.
.

Garcia Bronco
05-14-2009, 02:52 PM
FYP






to be clear, a dog is Probable cause, so is plain sight, and inventory incident to arrest, all ways to see what's in the car. So to be really CLEAR, don't break the ****ing law....

Like I said...IMO a dog isn't probable cause. And plain sight wouldn't require a search.

tooge
05-14-2009, 02:56 PM
I got pulled over by a semi douchebag highway patrolman in Alabama. I was driving a grey rented minivan. It was about 3am. I have the cruise set at 70mph and the speed limit was 70mph. My two kids are sound asleep in carseats in the back and wifey is snoozing in the passenger seat. I pull over. He walks up, shines his light right into my kids faces, waking them both. I was very polite and asked why he pulled me over stating " I thought I was doin about 70". He said he pulled me over because of all the drug traffic going to florida in rentel vehicles around spring break. Re he he healy? I almost asked him if he had some land to sell me in florida when I got there. What a stretch. Anyhow, after he left, my wife and I spent the next 25 minutes trying to get the kids to go back to sleep. How many criminals commited crimes while my innocent ass was being pulled over by sargeant "look how bad I am"? Most cops make it hard to like them, even if you are law abiding.

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 02:59 PM
Like I said...IMO a dog isn't probable cause. And plain sight wouldn't require a search.

Depends on what is seen in plain view when the officer is standing by the window, anything illict will = a car search. Also there's the Terry Search ruling that allows an officer to search the arm's reach of the driver, when stopped and with probable cause that a crime is occuring.

The dog hit, the actions of the driver, all give probable cause to ask him out of the vehicle, him not getting out is then an obstruction of justice charge, plus whatever they find in the vehicle inventory from the arrest, if they place him under arrest for the obstruction.

One question, that I don't think has come up. Why would they fake a dog hit? Nothing good can come of that for the officers.

Pitt Gorilla
05-14-2009, 03:02 PM
Depends on what is seen in plain view when the officer is standing by the window, anything illict will = a car search. Also there's the Terry Search ruling that allows an officer to search the arm's reach of the driver, when stopped and with probable cause that a crime is occuring.

The dog hit, the actions of the driver, all give probable cause to ask him out of the vehicle, him not getting out is then an obstruction of justice charge, plus whatever they find in the vehicle inventory from the arrest, if they place him under arrest for the obstruction.

One question, that I don't think has come up. Why would they fake a dog hit? Nothing good can come of that for the officers.Which actions of his would give probable cause?

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 03:03 PM
I got pulled over by a semi douchebag highway patrolman in Alabama. I was driving a grey rented minivan. It was about 3am. I have the cruise set at 70mph and the speed limit was 70mph. My two kids are sound asleep in carseats in the back and wifey is snoozing in the passenger seat. I pull over. He walks up, shines his light right into my kids faces, waking them both. I was very polite and asked why he pulled me over stating " I thought I was doin about 70". He said he pulled me over because of all the drug traffic going to florida in rentel vehicles around spring break. Re he he healy? I almost asked him if he had some land to sell me in florida when I got there. What a stretch. Anyhow, after he left, my wife and I spent the next 25 minutes trying to get the kids to go back to sleep. How many criminals commited crimes while my innocent ass was being pulled over by sargeant "look how bad I am"? Most cops make it hard to like them, even if you are law abiding.


sorry your kids got woke up and all, but if that area had alot of drug arrests in rentals I'd be just fine with being stopped. It's profiling to an extent, but sometimes it works, and if it got on van full of drugs off the street later that night, or that week/month. Hell even that year! I'd be ok being stopped 50 times.....

L.A. Chieffan
05-14-2009, 03:04 PM
Yeah ya do unless there is probable cause. IMO a dog sitting isn't probable cause no matter how trained it's claimed to be.

the guy in the video says they NEEDED a warrant. sorry dude.

Johnny Vegas
05-14-2009, 03:05 PM
If someone has nothing on them thats illegal they should still hold their 4th amendment right up in the air. If people start being a flat out pussy and give their rights up anytime the law wants you to give them up then what's the point of even having the amendment in the first place. I don't have a problem with cops its just that their presence makes people give up their rights and turn them into complete fuckin pussies.

L.A. Chieffan
05-14-2009, 03:06 PM
you have a right to be an asshole. dont be surprised if a cop is an asshole back to you

ChiTown
05-14-2009, 03:08 PM
you have a right to be an asshole. dont be surprised if a cop is an asshole back to you

'zactly

Micjones
05-14-2009, 03:09 PM
"Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither."

Earthling
05-14-2009, 03:09 PM
One question, that I don't think has come up. Why would they fake a dog hit? .

Lol..To get inside and take a look obviously...Same as getting pulled over for not signalling..even if you did. I mean if they want to search your car they can come up with 1001 excuses to do so. That being said, IF the dog gave a positive response when there was nothing, the dog should be de-commissioned.

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 03:09 PM
Which actions of his would give probable cause?


The dog hit on something in your car, please step out so we might take a look.

No
(I'm sure he said more than just no, and I'm sure they asked and tried to be patient and debate if he had to get out or not more than just once)

sir, I'm ordering you out, or else you'll be arrested for obstruction.

No

That's all it takes for his actions to add to the probable cause, I know you are smart enough to know that. you're just trying to start something now aren't you. I warn you though, I've been going rounds all day with my ex-wife and her new husband (both cops) I called her the C word for excessively berating me by text and he left a nice voicemail threatening me if I called her a name again. They think they can take me to court over it apparently, so I'm ready to take any shit you think you can sling at me.....

tooge
05-14-2009, 03:11 PM
sorry your kids got woke up and all, but if that area had alot of drug arrests in rentals I'd be just fine with being stopped. It's profiling to an extent, but sometimes it works, and if it got on van full of drugs off the street later that night, or that week/month. Hell even that year! I'd be ok being stopped 50 times.....

Oh, I know, but How bout a slow drive by? Look over at me. For petes sake, I'm a 42 year old guy with 2 little kids sleeping in a van with non tinted windows. Why go through the whole pull me over, make me suck up to him, and shine the flashlight in thing. It just seems a bit too power hungry for me.

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 03:13 PM
Lol..To get inside and take a look obviously...Same as getting pulled over for not signalling..even if you did. I mean if they want to search your car they can come up with 1001 excuses to do so. That being said, IF the dog gave a positive response when there was nothing, the dog should be de-commissioned.

what benefit is there to search a car with nothing in it? You gotta believe that even if they've let the badge get into their head they don't just want to search a vehicle because they're board. That's what you would almost have to insinuate if they made up the dog hit.

Oh, and I agree if the dog hits and nothing is found then DX that dog. Taking away personal liberties for the purpose of law enforcement is not something to be taken lightly. (BTW - I didn't realize sniffing dogs were good at smelling alter boys that this pastor is sneaking into the country, LOL - I keed, I keed)

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 03:16 PM
Oh, I know, but How bout a slow drive by? Look over at me. For petes sake, I'm a 42 year old guy with 2 little kids sleeping in a van with non tinted windows. Why go through the whole pull me over, make me suck up to him, and shine the flashlight in thing. It just seems a bit too power hungry for me.

I've arrested old grandma/grandpa types that had drugs (seen on ol lady pull a gun after a regular speeding traffic stop), you can't judge a book solely on appearances of the driver. If the rental car is a common denominator in that area, you gotta go with it as a police officer. Don't worry, the bad guys will catch on and start a different tactic, then it will be the fed-ex drivers getting "harrassed" - LOL

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 03:17 PM
"Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither."

It aint' the 1800's anymore, Mr. Franklin.....

Pitt Gorilla
05-14-2009, 03:18 PM
The dog hit on something in your car, please step out so we might take a look.

No
(I'm sure he said more than just no, and I'm sure they asked and tried to be patient and debate if he had to get out or not more than just once)

sir, I'm ordering you out, or else you'll be arrested for obstruction.

No

That's all it takes for his actions to add to the probable cause, I know you are smart enough to know that. you're just trying to start something now aren't you. I warn you though, I've been going rounds all day with my ex-wife and her new husband (both cops) I called her the C word for excessively berating me by text and he left a nice voicemail threatening me if I called her a name again. They think they can take me to court over it apparently, so I'm ready to take any shit you think you can sling at me.....Honestly, it's the thinking exhibited in your final paragraph that causes people to dislike cops. I wasn't trying to "start something" at all; I asked a question to someone that I thought would know more about the situation than I do. You gave a reasonable answer, which was good, but then decided I needed an ulterior motive and your laundry.

Earthling
05-14-2009, 03:18 PM
I truley believe the agents "thought" they would find something in the car and were determined to search it. It would be very easy to say they had a hit from the dog even if that were untrue if they were convinced of finding something. A question...'Would you say that this persons rights were violated if indeed there was not a hit from the dog?'

Brock
05-14-2009, 03:19 PM
Honestly, it's the thinking exhibited in your final paragraph that cause people to dislike cops. I wasn't trying to "start something" at all; I asked a question to someone that I thought would know more about the situation than I do. You gave a reasonable answer, which was good, but then decided I needed an ulterior motive and your laundry.

DO NOT QUESTION US - IT'S ALL IN THE INTEREST OF SAFETY

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 03:21 PM
Oh, and I agree if the dog hits and nothing is found then DX that dog. Taking away personal liberties for the purpose of law enforcement is not something to be taken lightly.
I was in agreement with almost everything you've said up until this. If you're saying decommission a dog for one bad hit, that's out there. These animals require thousands of dollars of training. One bad hit does not a bad dog make.

Earthling
05-14-2009, 03:23 PM
I was in agreement with almost everything you've said up until this. If you're saying decommission a dog for one bad hit, that's out there. These animals require thousands of dollars of training. One bad hit does not a bad dog make.

How many would? And are they required to keep a record of that?

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 03:23 PM
The video starts with a half of the story that the "pastor" wants us to see.....
if his face was "completely covered in blood" then why wasn't the marks on his face bigger? how do we know that the marks on his face the next day were totally from the border patrol? Why didn't he comply with the officers from the start (whenever, or however long before we see the start of this video) How come we don't see the rest of his video, if he's so innocent, why didn't he post the rest of it?

Listen, people. STOP trying to get on national TV for your 5 minutes of fame, DO listen to the authority figure in a situation. They have so much to deal with as it is, why do you want to add to it? What does it benefit us as a nation?

The border patrol already has to deal with child porn, drugs, terrorists - do they really HAVE to worry about someone that is only trying to make something out of nothing?

SERIOUSLY, THE ONLY THING THAT IS GOING TO COME OF THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR IS SHOWING THE CHILD PORN PEDDLERS/DRUG DEALERS/TERRORISTS A WAY TO BEAT OUR NATIONAL SECURITY, AND GET THROUGH THE BORDER TO DO HARMFUL THINGS TO OUR COUNTRY, IT'S PEOPLE AND OUR CHILDREN.

It's just sensless to me in the big picture. fuck this guy....


even when I was up late and drank too much I still make sense, LOL....

Micjones
05-14-2009, 03:23 PM
It aint' the 1800's anymore, Mr. Franklin.....

Good thing that wisdom was only applicable then.
:rolleyes:

raybec 4
05-14-2009, 03:23 PM
It aint' the 1800's anymore, Mr. Franklin.....

Watch out buddy, I can sue your ass for shit like that.

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 03:25 PM
I was in agreement with almost everything you've said up until this. If you're saying decommission a dog for one bad hit, that's out there. These animals require thousands of dollars of training. One bad hit does not a bad dog make.

Well, that's a valid point, and one that should be debated further between to sensible, highly informed groups to monitor the actions of police dogs. But one bad arrest can and have cost cops their jobs and they have thousands of dollars invested in them too.....

Fish
05-14-2009, 03:26 PM
what benefit is there to search a car with nothing in it? You gotta believe that even if they've let the badge get into their head they don't just want to search a vehicle because they're board. That's what you would almost have to insinuate if they made up the dog hit.

Oh, and I agree if the dog hits and nothing is found then DX that dog. Taking away personal liberties for the purpose of law enforcement is not something to be taken lightly. (BTW - I didn't realize sniffing dogs were good at smelling alter boys that this pastor is sneaking into the country, LOL - I keed, I keed)

Perhaps the benefit for them is exerting control over another person because you can. Because it gives you a positive feeling of dominance and authority?

People have many methods of achieving that feeling. It's a powerful feeling, and not at all confined to police officers.

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 03:27 PM
I truley believe the agents "thought" they would find something in the car and were determined to search it. It would be very easy to say they had a hit from the dog even if that were untrue if they were convinced of finding something. A question...'Would you say that this persons rights were violated if indeed there was not a hit from the dog?'

depends on more facts from the incident than we currently have here on judge planet....

Old Dog
05-14-2009, 03:29 PM
How many would? And are they required to keep a record of that?

Damn good questions IMO


The answer to #1 of course is my opinion only, but i would think that would go on the record of the animal in question. If a dog has, in the past been reliable, then I would think he/she should be given more leeway for errors, just as you (assuming) or I would be in our jobs. Anyone(thing) is apt to have a bad day. If it's a younger or less reliable dog then either retrain or DX it.

To question #2: I honestly don't know, but I would guess that they're required to keep a record. I will find out

Earthling
05-14-2009, 03:31 PM
depends on more facts from the incident than we currently have here on judge planet....

True. But, if the whole case revolved around the dog hitting on the car then why not bring the dog back out again, something which apparently was requested when the arresting officer showed up and was denied..? Kind of suspicious behavior on both sides IMHO.

Chiefnj2
05-14-2009, 03:31 PM
United States v Forbes (528 F. 3d 1273 (2008) Tenth Circuit

Border patrol agents have virtually unlimited discretion to refer cars to the secondary inspections area, and may make such referrals without any particularized suspicion of criminal activity.

Border patrol agents are free to conduct exterior canine inspections of vehicles so long as the vehicles and their occupants are otherwise lawfully detained at the time of the inspection. At the border, canine inspections are permissible even in the absence of individualized suspicion and even without the consent of the vehicle's driver or occupants. A canine's alert to the presence of contraband during an exterior sniff of a vehicle gives rise to probable cause for border patrol agents to search that vehicle's interior.

Even at border checkpoints, the Fourth Amendment prohibits the search of a vehicle's interior unless law enforcement officials receive consent, have a warrant, or otherwise establish probable cause to support the search.

United States v Whitted (541 F. 3d 480 (2008) Third Circuit

Searches conducted at the nation's borders represent an exception to the warrant requirement, which applies not only at the physical boundaries of the United States, but also at the functional equivalent of a border including the first port where a ship docks after arriving from a foreign country.

Border searches fall into two categories: routine searches that require no suspicion, and non-routine searches that require reasonable suspicion. Patdowns, frisks, luggage searches, and automobile searches, involving neither a high expectation of privacy nor a seriously invasive search, are “routine searches” that require no suspicion, whereas body cavity searches, strip searches, and x-ray examinations are considered “nonroutine searches” by virtue of their significant intrusion on an individual's privacy and require reasonable suspicion.

Search of private living quarters in a cabin aboard a ship at the functional equivalent of a border is a nonroutine border search and must be supported by reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct.

Officers prepared the room on the ship for the K-9 sniff. These preparations consisted of ensuring that no sharp objects, food, or anything else that might harm or distract the dog were in the cabin, moving bags from under the bed into the center of the room, and pressing the surface of the bags to expel any air inside. No bags were opened at this time.

Earthling
05-14-2009, 03:32 PM
Damn good questions IMO


The answer to #1 of course is my opinion only, but i would think that would go on the record of the animal in question. If a dog has, in the past been reliable, then I would think he/she should be given more leeway for errors, just as you (assuming) or I would be in our jobs. Anyone(thing) is apt to have a bad day. If it's a younger or less reliable dog then either retrain or DX it.

To question #2: I honestly don't know, but I would guess that they're required to keep a record. I will find out


Yes..Good luck finding that out but it would be very interesting to know...

crazycoffey
05-14-2009, 03:34 PM
Good thing that wisdom was only applicable then.
:rolleyes:

Well, there weren't planes flying into buildings in the name of terror back then, I wonder what Ben would say now. that's my only assertion. BTW - I like that quote very much, but I think your use of it is a bit slighted. We have freedoms now that the forefathers only dreamed of, and if they are taken for a minute during a criminal investigation, it's not what Ben was signifying in that quote. IMO anyway....

Watch out buddy, I can sue your ass for shit like that.

I didn't call you the c word, you bloody hatchet wound....

Perhaps the benefit for them is exerting control over another person because you can. Because it gives you a positive feeling of dominance and authority?

People have many methods of achieving that feeling. It's a powerful feeling, and not at all confined to police officers.

I know it happens, ugly is everywhere, but I don't see it happening for no reason what so ever. The police exerting control comes from the heat of a growing incident in most cases, not the start. Not that it's not possible, I just think it's the by product of all the movies we watch, fear of the bad cop in the movies being a real life incident. Plus you are counting on several bad apples in this event, not just one.

Searching a vehicle when you think you'll find something and finding it is a much better feeling than saying there's nothing there after you forced him to let you look....

stevieray
05-14-2009, 03:39 PM
There is an obvious mistrust on both sides, and that's a thread in itself.

The thing that's troublesome to me is how the cops look like hyenas going in for the kill, ten guys swarming on one dude...everyone looking to get in on the action.

I understand the adrenaline after a high speed car chase, but this is different. IMO.

ZootedGranny
05-14-2009, 03:50 PM
Some of the comments in youtube claim that he does this all the time at checkpoints looking for trouble. Who knows if that is true or not, but if it is, then what a douche.

He has one or two other videos where he seemingly wandered into some cop harassment.

He may be within his rights, but I don't have any sympathy for the guy.

MatriculatingHank
05-14-2009, 04:02 PM
WARNING: Short Bible Study To Follow.... (Again, you've been warned. ;))

Mr. Anderson states on his website that he has memorized over 100 chapters of the Bible http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/page2.html
He should be familiar with Romans 13 which states:
"1. Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. 5 So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience."

The apostle Paul wrote these words to a group of early Christians who were suffering horribly at the hands of Nero who placed many of these early believers to death simply because they professed Jesus as Messiah. Paul told them to be submissive to governing authorities, even those who were persecuting Christians.
The only time that Christians are to rebel against Civil Authority or disobey the law according to the Bible is found in Acts 5 when the apostles had been told to stop preaching in the name of Jesus. Acts 5:29 "But Peter and the apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than any human authority."

Mr. Anderson was not being asked to do anything that contradicts the Bible in anyway. He should have consented to the authorities and went on his way. But instead, he chose this path and tries to make himself out to be a martyr.
I don't buy it. Yes, there are corrupt authorities and yes their actions are contemptible but Mr. Anderson was simply acting the fundamentalist, King James Version only preacher that he is. I'm sure that he will be the key note speaker at this fall's Independent Baptist Preachers' Convention. I'm only too glad that I won't have to listen to his rhetoric.

And yes, I am a Christian. I just have major issues with Fundamental Legalists who would rather argue over doctrinal issues than share the hope and freedom that Jesus promises to those who will follow Him.

Earthling
05-14-2009, 04:10 PM
oops..hehe read it wrong..:)

vailpass
05-14-2009, 04:11 PM
Not to be disrespectful to you and your beliefs but do you think Hitler was placed in positioon of authority by God and the ones who blindly followed him were doing Gods will..?

Read the last 2 paragraph's of his post and you will answer your own question.
*Edit: you didn't need me to tell you that :)

MatriculatingHank
05-14-2009, 04:12 PM
EDIT: I'm not a theologian. I have to be honest and say that I posted out of anger and frustration to Fundamentalist preachers who have caused me much pain and anguish.
I'd rather not comment anymore on this matter. I'd rather pray for a great 2009 Chiefs' season. !;)

Earthling
05-14-2009, 04:13 PM
Read the last 2 paragraph's of his post and you will answer your own question.
*Edit: you didn't need me to tell you that :)

Lol..I tried to delete as soon as i posted but never deleted before..:D Took me a minute

Micjones
05-14-2009, 04:14 PM
WARNING: Short Bible Study To Follow.... (Again, you've been warned. ;))

Mr. Anderson states on his website that he has memorized over 100 chapters of the Bible http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/page2.html
He should be familiar with Romans 13 which states:
"1. Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. 5 So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience."

The apostle Paul wrote these words to a group of early Christians who were suffering horribly at the hands of Nero who placed many of these early believers to death simply because they professed Jesus as Messiah. Paul told them to be submissive to governing authorities, even those who were persecuting Christians.
The only time that Christians are to rebel against Civil Authority or disobey the law according to the Bible is found in Acts 5 when the apostles had been told to stop preaching in the name of Jesus. Acts 5:29 "But Peter and the apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than any human authority."

Mr. Anderson was not being asked to do anything that contradicts the Bible in anyway. He should have consented to the authorities and went on his way. But instead, he chose this path and tries to make himself out to be a martyr.
I don't buy it. Yes, there are corrupt authorities and yes their actions are contemptible but Mr. Anderson was simply acting the fundamentalist, King James Version only preacher that he is. I'm sure that he will be the key note speaker at this fall's Independent Baptist Preachers' Convention. I'm only too glad that I won't have to listen to his rhetoric.

And yes, I am a Christian. I just have major issues with Fundamental Legalists who would rather argue over doctrinal issues than share the hope and freedom that Jesus promises to those who will follow Him.

That's funny. Hitler said the same thing...
:evil:

Pants
05-14-2009, 05:38 PM
WARNING: Short Bible Study To Follow.... (Again, you've been warned. ;))

Mr. Anderson states on his website that he has memorized over 100 chapters of the Bible http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/page2.html
He should be familiar with Romans 13 which states:
"1. Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. 5 So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience."

The apostle Paul wrote these words to a group of early Christians who were suffering horribly at the hands of Nero who placed many of these early believers to death simply because they professed Jesus as Messiah. Paul told them to be submissive to governing authorities, even those who were persecuting Christians.
The only time that Christians are to rebel against Civil Authority or disobey the law according to the Bible is found in Acts 5 when the apostles had been told to stop preaching in the name of Jesus. Acts 5:29 "But Peter and the apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than any human authority."

Mr. Anderson was not being asked to do anything that contradicts the Bible in anyway. He should have consented to the authorities and went on his way. But instead, he chose this path and tries to make himself out to be a martyr.
I don't buy it. Yes, there are corrupt authorities and yes their actions are contemptible but Mr. Anderson was simply acting the fundamentalist, King James Version only preacher that he is. I'm sure that he will be the key note speaker at this fall's Independent Baptist Preachers' Convention. I'm only too glad that I won't have to listen to his rhetoric.

And yes, I am a Christian. I just have major issues with Fundamental Legalists who would rather argue over doctrinal issues than share the hope and freedom that Jesus promises to those who will follow Him.

That is just perverted.

Pioli Zombie
05-14-2009, 05:44 PM
That is just perverted.

Please be specific. What is? What the Pastor is doing? What the Bible says? Or what the Poster said?
Posted via Mobile Device

Pants
05-14-2009, 05:45 PM
Please be specific. What is? What the Pastor is doing? What the Bible says? Or what the Poster said?
Posted via Mobile Device

What the Bible says, sorry.

bango
05-14-2009, 05:54 PM
A link to His Wife's Blog was posted here so I went and read it. I read many of her posts. I would say that if you would like to read some comedy gold then go there. They are right up there with the Phelps Gang. She Gay bashed and all. She claims that the Bible has given her the right to hate and to be judgemental.

Pioli Zombie
05-14-2009, 05:58 PM
A link to His Wife's Blog was posted here so I went and read it. I read many of her posts. I would say that if you would like to read some comedy gold then go there. They are right up there with the Phelps Gang. She Gay bashed and all. She claims that the Bible has given her the right to hate and to be judgemental.
Yeah, I looked through that website. I'm a Christian, and I can say that those people are off their fargon rocker. Nutjobs.
God should do a disclaimer. The opinions expressed by this church are solely the opinion of whackjobs and in no way express the views of the Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit, and teachings of the Bible or Christians in general.
Posted via Mobile Device

SDChiefs
05-14-2009, 05:59 PM
Heres my two cents if anyone cares. I know that cops have to deal with more bullshitake than almost anyone in these great states. Most of us have a bad day at work and we get yelled at by our boss. They have a bad day at work and they lose their life, or their partners life or a childs life. Thats some messed up crap to have to deal with on a daily basis.

But I also could probably count on my one hand if not one than definately 2 hands the amount of helpful and respectable cops Ive met in my entire 26 years of life. Thats not good. I do know that I have not met every cop, and I do know there are a lot more good ones out there. It used to be to serve and to protect and I do believe it is now to harrass and to arrest.

Not saying the guy deserved what he got, not saying he didn't. I don't know the full story of what happened. But I do know that if you pull the "youre violating my rights" card that just pisses them off and they are going to do what they want cause they know they will get away with it. And that I believe is the fault of the system.

Pioli Zombie
05-14-2009, 06:12 PM
Those people are OBSESSED with homosexuals.
Posted via Mobile Device

DTLB58
05-14-2009, 06:53 PM
You can pretty much piece together what probably happened. He's coming through border check and is being a wise-ass, not answering questions, etc. Border police get annoyed with him and bring the dog over and say the dog is acting funny, when in reality it probably wasn't, but it gives them reason to ask him to exit the vehicle, etc.

He refuses to exit, acts smug, pisses them off further, etc. Then he turns on the camera and acts all innocent asking reasonable questions. At this point the police are fed up with him and their tempers are short. They aren't going to bring the dog back with the camera running because the dog probably won't do anything out of the ordinary other than lick its own balls. They can't even give him a reason for why he's being detained other than to say he isn't following their present order. They don't really have reasonable suspicion (not that I'm sure any is needed at a border crossing) for anything other than Rule 1: Show a wise ass who is boss and who is wearing the badge. I have no sympathy for anyone in the video.

This says it all really in a nut shell.

el borracho
05-14-2009, 07:42 PM
1. The police do need a reason to arrest you.
1.a. The police claim to have had a reason.

2. You do have a right to know why you are being detained or arrested.
2.a. The police told the guy why he was being arrested.

3. You must be cooperative with reasonable demands while being arrested.
3.a. The guy declined to get out of the car.

4. You do not get to make any demands while being arrested.
4.a. The police aren't obligated to bring the dog back out.

Moral of the story, if you think your rights are being violated you have two choices: cooperate and complain later or get your ass kicked and complain about more stuff later.

Did the dog alert? We'll never know, but that is what the police said and (I'm sure) what they will continue to say. Like it or not, that will probably be enough excuse for everything that happened subsequently.

bango
05-14-2009, 08:32 PM
Yeah, I looked through that website. I'm a Christian, and I can say that those people are off their fargon rocker. Nutjobs.
God should do a disclaimer. The opinions expressed by this church are solely the opinion of whackjobs and in no way express the views of the Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit, and teachings of the Bible or Christians in general.
Posted via Mobile Device

That wench almost makes Ann Coulter look like a nice lady who is somewhat liberal.