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Nzoner
05-17-2009, 08:26 PM
10 motivational head coaches of all-time.Wow,and 1 piece of hardware to show for it.

10.Bum Phillips
09.Sam Wyche
08.Hank Stram
07.Bill Parcells
06.Bill Cowher
05.George Allen
04.Marty Schottenheimer
03.Jon Gruden
02.Dick Vermeil
01.Vince Lombardi

keg in kc
05-17-2009, 08:28 PM
Talent wins championships.

milkman
05-17-2009, 08:28 PM
I think that just shows you that "experts" have as much of a clue as the rest of us assholes.

EyePod
05-17-2009, 08:29 PM
I'm surprised Herm wasn't on there... He sure motivated his players. Now, he couldn't teach them dick, but he could sure as hell motivate them.

Nzoner
05-17-2009, 08:31 PM
I'm surprised Herm wasn't on there... He sure motivated his players. Now, he couldn't teach them dick, but he could sure as hell motivate them.

They mentioned other coaches that missed the final cut and Herm was one as well the likes of Ditka,Mora and Levy.

Bugeater
05-17-2009, 08:32 PM
They mentioned other coaches that missed the final cut and Herm was one as well the likes of Ditka,Mora and Levy.
Why the hell would Herm even be in the conversation? JFC, he sucked ass in every way possible.

Nzoner
05-17-2009, 08:34 PM
Why the hell would Herm even be in the conversation? JFC, he sucked ass in every way possible.

Just reporting what I watched,a few of them had me dumbfounded as well.

EyePod
05-17-2009, 08:35 PM
They mentioned other coaches that missed the final cut and Herm was one as well the likes of Ditka,Mora and Levy.

Wow, I mean, I can't believe he was even considered.

Career record: 56-77 That's terrible. What a fucking loser...

Halfcan
05-17-2009, 08:40 PM
Herm's motivation at its best...

"now I know we are down by 3 TD's, our D can't stop anyone, LJ fumbled and is crying on the bench, Our O line couldn't block an old lady in a wheel chair- but Do you pull the cookies out of the oven before they are cooked??? Well do ya-they will be TOOO soft, NOW DO YOU GUYS WANT SOFT MUSHIE COOKIES??????"

Pioli Zombie
05-17-2009, 08:42 PM
John Gruden?????????? WTF??
Posted via Mobile Device

Reerun_KC
05-17-2009, 09:05 PM
Marty? ROFL

Yeah he was really motivational during the playoffs...

I guess sucking your thumb in the fetal position while the other teams embarrased your regular season monster on national TV is motivation, then Marty was King...

Raised On Riots
05-17-2009, 09:10 PM
Marty? ROFL

Yeah he was really motivational during the playoffs...

I guess sucking your thumb in the fetal position while the other teams embarrased your regular season monster on national TV is motivation, then Marty was King...

As far as the Chiefs go, I put him and Dickie-boy in the same doghouse with the exception that Marty fielded a more balanced team when the Chiefs were in the hunt.

Reerun_KC
05-17-2009, 09:14 PM
As far as the Chiefs go, I put him and Dickie-boy in the same doghouse with the exception that Marty fielded a more balanced team when the Chiefs were in the hunt.

ROFL

Yeah Marty really had some great offenses and QB's in the Mediocrity years of the Chiefs...

Halfcan
05-17-2009, 09:14 PM
As far as the Chiefs go, I put him and Dickie-boy in the same doghouse with the exception that Marty fielded a more balanced team when the Chiefs were in the hunt.

If Dick had DT on his D we would have had mutiple championships.

Raised On Riots
05-17-2009, 09:16 PM
ROFL

Yeah Marty really had some great offenses and QB's in the Mediocrity years of the Chiefs...

The 97 offense could have ass plowed any defense Dickie-doo could scratch together during his time with the Chiefs.
Period.

Raised On Riots
05-17-2009, 09:18 PM
If Dick had DT on his D we would have had mutiple championships.

You could also say that very thing if he had fielded a defense that could stop paraplegics in wheelchairs.

:shrug:

Reerun_KC
05-17-2009, 09:20 PM
You could also say that very thing if he had fielded a defense that could stop paraplegics in wheelchairs.

:shrug:

Or you could say the same thing about Marty, his offenses had trouble scoring in a whore house on 3$ night...

Halfcan
05-17-2009, 09:24 PM
You could also say that very thing if he had fielded a defense that could stop paraplegics in wheelchairs.

:shrug:

My point was.... DT won Marty games.... NOT Marty.

Raised On Riots
05-17-2009, 09:27 PM
Or you could say the same thing about Marty, his offenses had trouble scoring in a whore house on 3$ night...

Well, I've had enough of debating the suck of both of these guys.

chiefzilla1501
05-17-2009, 09:29 PM
As far as the Chiefs go, I put him and Dickie-boy in the same doghouse with the exception that Marty fielded a more balanced team when the Chiefs were in the hunt.

It's hard to blame the head coach when your GM whiffs on every single free agent acquisition and draft pick during that era.

I've said it many times... if the Chiefs hit on one or two more free agent acquisitions or draft picks, they would have been to the Super Bowl. The Chiefs' struggles during the Vermeil era were a lot more on Peterson than they were on Vermeil.

Reerun_KC
05-17-2009, 09:32 PM
Well, I've had enough of debating the suck of both of these guys.

That was quick...

Raised On Riots
05-17-2009, 09:33 PM
That was quick...

Could'a-Would'a; what's the point?

KCrockaholic
05-17-2009, 11:14 PM
10 motivational head coaches of all-time.Wow,and 1 piece of hardware to show for it.

10.Bum Phillips
09.Sam Wyche
08.Hank Stram
07.Bill Parcells
06.Bill Cowher
05.George Allen
04.Marty Schottenheimer
03.Jon Gruden
02.Dick Vermeil
01.Vince Lombardi

Make that 4 coaches if you want to include Bill Cowher.

Skip Towne
05-17-2009, 11:30 PM
Say what you will Marty haters, he provided me with many hours of enjoyment with beaucoup primetime and playoff games. He was an automatic ticket to the playoffs. Arrowhead was a really tough place for opponents to play. We haven't had anywhere nearly as good teams since he left.

DaneMcCloud
05-17-2009, 11:35 PM
Say what you will Marty haters, he provided me with many hours of enjoyment with beaucoup primetime and playoff games. He was an automatic ticket to the playoffs. Arrowhead was a really tough place for opponents to play. We haven't had anywhere nearly as good teams since he left.

Yeah, I really miss the days when the Chiefs could win just enough regular season games to qualify for the playoffs, then lose their asses in the first round.

Ah, the good ol' days.

Raised On Riots
05-17-2009, 11:54 PM
Say what you will Marty haters, he provided me with many hours of enjoyment with beaucoup primetime and playoff games. He was an automatic ticket to the playoffs. Arrowhead was a really tough place for opponents to play. We haven't had anywhere nearly as good teams since he left.

Holy Fuck; toads are raining from the sky, and Skip Towne and I agree on something.

Mark this day and hour in your calendars people, this is a Haley's Comet passing by Chiefs Planet.

Raised On Riots
05-17-2009, 11:55 PM
Yeah, I really miss the days when the Chiefs could win just enough regular season games to qualify for the playoffs, then lose their asses in the first round.

Ah, the good ol' days.

And the difference with Vermeil was.......?

DaneMcCloud
05-17-2009, 11:58 PM
And the difference with Vermeil was.......?

Vermeil sucked ass.

His "drafts" sent this team back to expansion franchise status.

For future reference, Skip has a hard-on for the Marty years.

Why, I have no idea.

Raised On Riots
05-18-2009, 12:16 AM
Vermeil sucked ass.

His "drafts" sent this franchise back to being an expansion team.

Just wondering if you were a "Vermeil Romanticizer".
Much like a LOT of what Carl did, I took one look at that guy and said "quick-fix". Not that there weren't some great players during his tenure, but he played a real cerebral type of football which just doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for me. Which is a strange juxtaposition because he wore his heart on his sleeve, but his shit was so clinical.

And then there was Herm. Four teams lose by the grace of chance, and all of a sudden it's "happy fun-time" against Indianapolis???? It's "time to get stoked"???

Give me a fucking break.

Chiefs fans settle for far too little. I'm glad Pioli and Haley are the kind of guys who don't, because this fan base doesn't need its hand held like a toddler on the road to understanding what it should expect; it needs a bitch-slap.

DaneMcCloud
05-18-2009, 12:18 AM
Do a search.

You'll find that from the beginning, I was completely against Vermeil and engaged in several heated debates.

Many of which (unfortunately), got really ugly.

Raised On Riots
05-18-2009, 12:33 AM
Do a search.

You'll find that from the beginning, I was completely against Vermeil and engaged in several heated debates.

Many of which (unfortunately), got really ugly.

When he was hired, the two things that sent up flags for me were:

1) Why are you going to hire a coach that just won a Super Bowl? For one, he just completed a life-long goal. There's no moving the goal post because the goal has been achieved. The guy was old, had vineyard in California, and you can't tell me he was burning 24/7 with the "eye of the tiger". I mean come on.

2) He wasn't a good fit for the mentality of the KC Chiefs football experience. The man was too damned civilized! And then he quit after a great season! WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT?! LMAO
He had some great players and if he were committed to a longer haul in KC, he could very well have led the Chiefs to Super Bowl.
But he didn't. He quit.

milkman
05-18-2009, 03:24 AM
Talent wins championships.

True, but coaching can lose playoff games.

chiefzilla1501
05-18-2009, 06:25 AM
Vermeil sucked ass.

His "drafts" sent this team back to expansion franchise status.

For future reference, Skip has a hard-on for the Marty years.

Why, I have no idea.

Does Dick Vermeil have the power to spend hours a day scouting college talent? Is he the coach ever the loudest voice in the room on draft day?

To the first point, it's not Vermeil's job to scout and recruit drafted players or free agents. The Chiefs have a whole personnel department that gets paid to specialize in that. To blame Vermeil for something that wasn't in his job description is ridiculous. It's not Vermeil's fault they botched so many drafts. Before you blame Vermeil, you HAVE to blame Peterson (whose hardball tactics kept the cream-of-the-crop out of Kansas City), and then you blame guys like Chuck Cook and especially Lynn Stiles.

To the second point, yes Vermeil screamed for guys like Ryan Sims, but that's the personnel department's job to cross-check to make sure he's got the facts straight. They didn't do nearly enough due diligence. I read a report that said that Lynn Stiles' method of scouting top players was to watch tape, instead of actual workouts, and then ask for recommendations from some of his buddies. That's why we got swindled into taking Sims.

milkman
05-18-2009, 06:30 AM
Does Dick Vermeil have the power to spend hours a day scouting college talent? Is he the coach ever the loudest voice in the room on draft day?

To the first point, it's not Vermeil's job to scout and recruit drafted players or free agents. The Chiefs have a whole personnel department that gets paid to specialize in that. To blame Vermeil for something that wasn't in his job description is ridiculous. It's not Vermeil's fault they botched so many drafts. Before you blame Vermeil, you HAVE to blame Peterson (whose hardball tactics kept the cream-of-the-crop out of Kansas City), and then you blame guys like Chuck Cook and especially Lynn Stiles.

To the second point, yes Vermeil screamed for guys like Ryan Sims, but that's the personnel department's job to cross-check to make sure he's got the facts straight. They didn't do nearly enough due diligence. I read a report that said that Lynn Stiles' method of scouting top players was to watch tape, instead of actual workouts, and then ask for recommendations from some of his buddies. That's why we got swindled into taking Sims.

Regardless of any of the crap you're spewing here, the fact remains that Carl gave his coaches a large voice in the draft room.

The responsibility for the failures of the Chiefs in Carl's 20 years start with Carl, but that doesn't absolve the fuckheads he hired to coach this team of any responsibility.

chiefzilla1501
05-18-2009, 06:31 AM
When he was hired, the two things that sent up flags for me were:

1) Why are you going to hire a coach that just won a Super Bowl? For one, he just completed a life-long goal. There's no moving the goal post because the goal has been achieved. The guy was old, had vineyard in California, and you can't tell me he was burning 24/7 with the "eye of the tiger". I mean come on.

2) He wasn't a good fit for the mentality of the KC Chiefs football experience. The man was too damned civilized! And then he quit after a great season! WHAT THE **** IS THAT?! LMAO
He had some great players and if he were committed to a longer haul in KC, he could very well have led the Chiefs to Super Bowl.
But he didn't. He quit.

I think you have the facts mixed up. Have you ever seen a Vermeil practice or press conference? You can't possibly tell me the man wasn't fired up to win. And civilized as he was, he had a reputation for running the toughest practices in the league--that's why the Chiefs always seemed to finish strong where other teams fell off.

Of course Vermeil made mistakes. One of his flaws was that he was overly loyal to some of his players and refused to play youth. But at the same token, what youth did the front office actually give him to work with? The Chiefs' personnel department was horrendous and that's not Vermeil's fault. I will again say that had the personnel department done an even AVERAGE job, the Chiefs would have made the Super Bowl. But they didn't--they did a horrendous job. And a team that was only a few pieces away couldn't add those few pieces through multiple drafts or free agency. And that's just embarrassing.

chiefzilla1501
05-18-2009, 06:34 AM
Regardless of any of the crap you're spewing here, the fact remains that Carl gave his coaches a large voice in the draft room.

The responsibility for the failures of the Chiefs in Carl's 20 years start with Carl, but that doesn't absolve the ****heads he hired to coach this team of any responsibility.

It doesn't absolve the guy. But coaches are not scouts. They're not personnel guys. A GM that gives a coach that much power in personnel decisions is a ****ing idiot. Even top-of-the-line coaches like Holmgren and Shanahan sucked ass when they were given personnel power. It's because you can't coach and do the extensive due diligence and evaluation that dedicated personnel guys can.

Vermeil can recommend players all he wants. But shame on Peterson for giving him the power to do so. Peterson and company had the power to veto any move Vermeil made. And they had the time Vermeil didn't have to sift through lots of film and workouts to tell Vermeil he was wrong. Vermeil is very low on the list of people to blame when it comes to personnel decisions.

milkman
05-18-2009, 06:52 AM
It doesn't absolve the guy. But coaches are not scouts. They're not personnel guys. A GM that gives a coach that much power in personnel decisions is a ****ing idiot. Even top-of-the-line coaches like Holmgren and Shanahan sucked ass when they were given personnel power. It's because you can't coach and do the extensive due diligence and evaluation that dedicated personnel guys can.

Vermeil can recommend players all he wants. But shame on Peterson for giving him the power to do so. Peterson and company had the power to veto any move Vermeil made. And they had the time Vermeil didn't have to sift through lots of film and workouts to tell Vermeil he was wrong. Vermeil is very low on the list of people to blame when it comes to personnel decisions.

No, the Head Coach and his staff don't have the time to pour over hours and hours of film on every player in the draft.

He and his staff, however, do have the months between the end of the season and the draft to watch film on potential first and second round picks, and more, and to attend workouts and the combines.

You are making excuses for Dick, and this is a poor excuse.

Dick shares the blame, so just stop trying to convince everyone that he doesn't own any responsibility.

Lzen
05-18-2009, 07:26 AM
10 motivational head coaches of all-time.Wow,and 1 piece of hardware to show for it.

10.Bum Phillips
09.Sam Wyche
08.Hank Stram
07.Bill Parcells
06.Bill Cowher
05.George Allen
04.Marty Schottenheimer
03.Jon Gruden
02.Dick Vermeil
01.Vince Lombardi

In all reality, Vermeil does have a piece of hardware. He is on the list for his accomplishments beyond just KC.

Schottenheimer will go down in history as one of the greatest "regular season" coaches of all time. Unfortunately, he will also go down in history as one of the worst "playoff" coaches of all time. Doesn't take away from the fact that he was a great motivator.

Nzoner
05-18-2009, 07:46 AM
Marty? ROFL

Yeah he was really motivational during the playoffs...

I guess sucking your thumb in the fetal position while the other teams embarrased your regular season monster on national TV is motivation, then Marty was King...

The program said that Martys props were due to the fact he had taken 3 crap teams(Browns,Chiefs,Chargers) and turned them all into contenders.Personally,I think he could've done the same in Washington had Snyder been a little more patient.

Nzoner
05-18-2009, 07:47 AM
In all reality, Vermeil does have a piece of hardware. He is on the list for his accomplishments beyond just KC.

Schottenheimer will go down in history as one of the greatest "regular season" coaches of all time. Unfortunately, he will also go down in history as one of the worst "playoff" coaches of all time. Doesn't take away from the fact that he was a great motivator.

True,however,my comment was based on one piece of hardware in KC. :)

splatbass
05-18-2009, 08:59 AM
ROFL

Yeah Marty really had some great offenses and QB's in the Mediocrity years of the Chiefs...

The Chiefs won more games than anyone in the 90s, so Marty must have been doing something right.

milkman
05-18-2009, 09:08 AM
The Chiefs won more games than anyone in the 90s, so Marty must have been doing something right.

It just boggles the mind how readily and easily people accept, and more amazingly, defend Martyocrity.

I bet you think Chuck Knox was a great coach too.

splatbass
05-18-2009, 09:20 AM
It just boggles the mind how readily and easily people accept, and more amazingly, defend Martyocrity.

I bet you think Chuck Knox was a great coach too.

It isn't, by definition, mediocrity when you are winning more games than anyone else.

PastorMikH
05-18-2009, 09:21 AM
It just boggles the mind how readily and easily people accept, and more amazingly, defend Martyocrity.

I bet you think Chuck Knox was a great coach too.



Marty never got us where we wanted to go, but enjoying regular season wins is sure better than what we've seen the last couple of years.

milkman
05-18-2009, 09:26 AM
It isn't, by definition, mediocrity when you are winning more games than anyone else.

In sports, the measure of a team isn't how many games you win.

It's measured by championships.

By that measure, the Chiefs were the very definition of mediocre.

milkman
05-18-2009, 09:27 AM
Marty never got us where we wanted to go, but enjoying regular season wins is sure better than what we've seen the last couple of years.

So let's settle for some more mediocrity.


Yay!

Nzoner
05-18-2009, 09:27 AM
It just boggles the mind how readily and easily people accept, and more amazingly, defend Martyocrity.


I won't defend the Martyocrity but I will defend his spot in this list by referring to a clip I seen where DT had just made a bad play and the other team had tied the game.He came sulking to the sideline and sat on the bench and Marty comes over to him and kneels and says,something like,"Derrick,look at me young man,look at me,it was one play,you have to let it go,we're back to zero-zero,we need you,so let it go."

It was something along those lines short and to the point but it made me think of losing a big sale in my profession and thinking if I'd had a coach like that I'd been ready to kick ass.

milkman
05-18-2009, 09:34 AM
I won't defend the Martyocrity but I will defend his spot in this list by referring to a clip I seen where DT had just made a bad play and the other team had tied the game.He came sulking to the sideline and sat on the bench and Marty comes over to him and kneels and says,something like,"Derrick,look at me young man,look at me,it was one play,you have to let it go,we're back to zero-zero,we need you,so let it go."

It was something along those lines short and to the point but it made me think of losing a big sale in my profession and thinking if I'd had a coach like that I'd been ready to kick ass.

I am not saying that Marty was incompetent.

He did a lot of things well, among those was motivating and teaching.

But the fact remains, when the team needed a coach in the playoffs, one who wasn't afraid to lose in the quest to win, Marty was not that coach.

Dr. Facebook Fever
05-18-2009, 09:36 AM
10 motivational head coaches of all-time.Wow,and 1 piece of hardware to show for it.

10.Bum Phillips
09.Sam Wyche
08.Hank Stram
07.Bill Parcells
06.Bill Cowher
05.George Allen
04.Marty Schottenheimer
03.Jon Gruden
02.Dick Vermeil
01.Vince Lombardi

You can't tell me John Mackovic wasn't an inspration to every life he touched.

Crush
05-18-2009, 11:13 AM
What is your favorite Marty moment? There are so many to choose from.

Mastering the intricacies of the run, run, pass, punt offense.
Pretending to go for it on 4th Down in an effort to draw off the defense... again.
Getting routed by the Bills in Buffalo on a consistent basis.
Losing the division to an inferior Chargers team in '94.
In Steve Bono, I Trust.
Grbac over Gannon
Monday Night Meltdown
Underachieving during the big games.

Nzoner
05-18-2009, 11:39 AM
Grbac over Gannon


I blame King Carl for that mess.

Raised On Riots
05-18-2009, 12:21 PM
What is your favorite Marty moment? There are so many to choose from.

Mastering the intricacies of the run, run, pass, punt offense.
Pretending to go for it on 4th Down in an effort to draw off the defense... again.
Getting routed by the Bills in Buffalo on a consistent basis.
Losing the division to an inferior Chargers team in '94.
In Steve Bono, I Trust.
Grbac over Gannon
Monday Night Meltdown
Underachieving during the big games.


I'm gonna' go with, "made a post-Stram pile of dogshit worthy of my time and money".

chiefzilla1501
05-18-2009, 01:13 PM
No, the Head Coach and his staff don't have the time to pour over hours and hours of film on every player in the draft.

He and his staff, however, do have the months between the end of the season and the draft to watch film on potential first and second round picks, and more, and to attend workouts and the combines.

You are making excuses for Dick, and this is a poor excuse.

Dick shares the blame, so just stop trying to convince everyone that he doesn't own any responsibility.

Does Dick share the blame? Of course he does. But like I said, he falls low on the list in the blame for personnel decisions. Vermeil may like a player and recommend him. It is the staff's job to sift through hours of film, interviews and workout evaluations to "fact check." It is widely known that Lynn Stiles was a lazy SOB when it came to that due diligence. His idea of scouting was to call a few buddies and ask their advice, and then to rely on some film instead of evaluating players live. Vermeil's job was to recommend. The personnel staff, particularly Stiles', job was to confirm they made the right decision.

But it goes beyond that. Is Vermeil trained to grill interviewees to see if they're soft? Probably not. Is he as well-versed in how workout information can dictate potential? Probably not. Does Vermeil have time during the season to watch film of these players? Probably not. In light of the million things he has to do, is he looking at in-depth tape on all these guys? Probably not. During draft season, amid OTAs, planning for the next season, evaluating the current roster, meetings with players and coaches, etc... does Vermeil have a full work day to commit to scouting evaluations? No.

Most of those roles involve dedicated specialists and it is their 40+ hour a week job for a full year to specialize well. Scouting for draft picks is not Vermeil's full-time job. I'm sorry, but when it comes to draft picks, I blame the guys who are supposed to be specializing in drafting, not the head coach who slips into the role for a few hours out of the year. Vermeil does some scouting, but it's not his main job. In fact, it's very low on his list of a million things that he is asked to do. Lynn Stiles deserves the vast majority of the blame for poor personnel decisions. Personnel decisions was his full-time job description.

melbar
05-18-2009, 01:42 PM
ROFL

Yeah Marty really had some great offenses and QB's in the Mediocrity years of the Chiefs...

The Mediocrity years? We won more games than anyone during those years. We choked in the playoffs, but those teams were anything but Mediocre.

melbar
05-18-2009, 01:44 PM
I'm gonna' go with, "made a post-Stram pile of dogshit worthy of my time and money".

ditto to that!:clap:

Raised On Riots
05-18-2009, 02:23 PM
The Mediocrity years? We won more games than anyone during those years. We choked in the playoffs, but those teams were anything but Mediocre.

He'd never do it, but I'd have him back as a D-Coord in a New York fucking Minute.

milkman
05-18-2009, 05:58 PM
Does Dick share the blame? Of course he does. But like I said, he falls low on the list in the blame for personnel decisions. Vermeil may like a player and recommend him. It is the staff's job to sift through hours of film, interviews and workout evaluations to "fact check." It is widely known that Lynn Stiles was a lazy SOB when it came to that due diligence. His idea of scouting was to call a few buddies and ask their advice, and then to rely on some film instead of evaluating players live. Vermeil's job was to recommend. The personnel staff, particularly Stiles', job was to confirm they made the right decision.

But it goes beyond that. Is Vermeil trained to grill interviewees to see if they're soft? Probably not. Is he as well-versed in how workout information can dictate potential? Probably not. Does Vermeil have time during the season to watch film of these players? Probably not. In light of the million things he has to do, is he looking at in-depth tape on all these guys? Probably not. During draft season, amid OTAs, planning for the next season, evaluating the current roster, meetings with players and coaches, etc... does Vermeil have a full work day to commit to scouting evaluations? No.

Most of those roles involve dedicated specialists and it is their 40+ hour a week job for a full year to specialize well. Scouting for draft picks is not Vermeil's full-time job. I'm sorry, but when it comes to draft picks, I blame the guys who are supposed to be specializing in drafting, not the head coach who slips into the role for a few hours out of the year. Vermeil does some scouting, but it's not his main job. In fact, it's very low on his list of a million things that he is asked to do. Lynn Stiles deserves the vast majority of the blame for poor personnel decisions. Personnel decisions was his full-time job description.

You can blame Carl for allowing Dick (and ****her andf Marty before him) to have as much influence in the draft as he did.

But the fact remains, he did have a huge say in who was picked, and no matter how you spin it, he is every bit as responsible for the sorry ass drafts as Carl.

He wanted those guys, he got them.

And if Lynn Stiles was as lazy as you say he is, how is it that the later picks were better overall, when Dick took himself out of the equation?

You are making excuses for him, and the fact is he sucked and there are no ****ing excuses.

chiefzilla1501
05-18-2009, 06:32 PM
You can blame Carl for allowing Dick (and ****her andf Marty before him) to have as much influence in the draft as he did.

But the fact remains, he did have a huge say in who was picked, and no matter how you spin it, he is every bit as responsible for the sorry ass drafts as Carl.

He wanted those guys, he got them.

And if Lynn Stiles was as lazy as you say he is, how is it that the later picks were better overall, when Dick took himself out of the equation?

You are making excuses for him, and the fact is he sucked and there are no ****ing excuses.

Whether you hate Whitlock or not, read this article:
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/printthread.php?t=105229
I wish I could also track down an ESPN Insider article years ago that ripped on Stiles big time and called him one of the worst personnel guys in the game. They said he did all of his evaluations through recommendations from college coaches within his network and that he did very limited actual scouting. Case-in-point, this is the same dumb shit who had no idea who Ben Roethlisberger was going into the draft. Can you believe that? How do you not know about a QB as highly rated as Big Ben?

You're basically suggesting that Vermeil deserves a lot of blame for drafting errors, but I will continue to ask why a GM would give a coach that kind of power and why the VP Personnel was so incompetent that he didn't know these guys were going to be failures? And then I'll ask why a Personnel guy, whose main job, by the way, is to make good draft picks and good free agency moves, wasn't fired after a long string of incompetence. It's like this. If you're building a home and your electrician is so incompetent that your carpenter ends up doing all the electrical work, whose fault is it when your electric is all screwed up? I would blame the electrician first for being a dumb shit at what he's supposed to be good at. And I'd blame the contractor who hired the guy in the first place. Why are you going to blame a guy who was doing something that's outside his job description?

Vermeil's job isn't to scout, collect data, and draft players. His job is to provide input so that the Personnel guy, who is supposed to specialize in personnel decisions, can make more informed decisions. If Vermeil had too much power, SHAME on Carl Peterson for giving it to him. In a good organization, a coach wouldn't have that much input for one, and the VP Personnel would have enough information to tell the head coach he was wrong. None of that happened. And so, a coach who was supposed to make INPUT ended up being the guy that made DECISIONS. Does Vermeil deserve some blame? Of course. But in a good organization, he would have been vetoed.

splatbass
05-18-2009, 09:42 PM
In sports, the measure of a team isn't how many games you win.

It's measured by championships.

By that measure, the Chiefs were the very definition of mediocre.

You need a new dictionary.

Try this one:

www.dictionary.com

me⋅di⋅o⋅cre
  /ˌmidiˈoʊkər/
–adjective
1. of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate.
2. rather poor or inferior.


The Chiefs during the Marty era were neither of those.

PastorMikH
05-18-2009, 09:55 PM
So let's settle for some more mediocrity.


Yay!


I don't want to settle for it, but it is somewhere between where we are and were we want to be. So, IMO, that is at least better than what we have now.

KcMizzou
05-18-2009, 09:58 PM
I don't want to settle for it, but it is somewhere between where we are and were we want to be. So, IMO, that is at least better than what we have now.Apologies, Pastor... but we've yet to see what we have now.

Maybe you meant, "What we've had lately."

Crush
05-18-2009, 10:25 PM
You need a new dictionary.

Try this one:

www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com)

me⋅di⋅o⋅cre
  /ˌmidiˈoʊkər/
–adjective
1. of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate.
2. rather poor or inferior.


The Chiefs during the Marty era were neither of those.




The Chiefs were actually ****ing terrible during the Marty era.

Raised On Riots
05-18-2009, 10:30 PM
The Chiefs were actually ****ing terrible during the Marty era.

Spock to infinity.

milkman
05-19-2009, 03:23 AM
Whether you hate Whitlock or not, read this article:
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/printthread.php?t=105229
I wish I could also track down an ESPN Insider article years ago that ripped on Stiles big time and called him one of the worst personnel guys in the game. They said he did all of his evaluations through recommendations from college coaches within his network and that he did very limited actual scouting. Case-in-point, this is the same dumb shit who had no idea who Ben Roethlisberger was going into the draft. Can you believe that? How do you not know about a QB as highly rated as Big Ben?

You're basically suggesting that Vermeil deserves a lot of blame for drafting errors, but I will continue to ask why a GM would give a coach that kind of power and why the VP Personnel was so incompetent that he didn't know these guys were going to be failures? And then I'll ask why a Personnel guy, whose main job, by the way, is to make good draft picks and good free agency moves, wasn't fired after a long string of incompetence. It's like this. If you're building a home and your electrician is so incompetent that your carpenter ends up doing all the electrical work, whose fault is it when your electric is all screwed up? I would blame the electrician first for being a dumb shit at what he's supposed to be good at. And I'd blame the contractor who hired the guy in the first place. Why are you going to blame a guy who was doing something that's outside his job description?

Vermeil's job isn't to scout, collect data, and draft players. His job is to provide input so that the Personnel guy, who is supposed to specialize in personnel decisions, can make more informed decisions. If Vermeil had too much power, SHAME on Carl Peterson for giving it to him. In a good organization, a coach wouldn't have that much input for one, and the VP Personnel would have enough information to tell the head coach he was wrong. None of that happened. And so, a coach who was supposed to make INPUT ended up being the guy that made DECISIONS. Does Vermeil deserve some blame? Of course. But in a good organization, he would have been vetoed.

Again, you are making excuses for Dick's poor talent evaluation.
Whether he should have been given that much voice is not the issue.

He made decisions that he was allowed to make, and he made poor ones.

If a carpenter does the electrical work on the house because the electrician is too lazy to do it. I'm going to fire the electrician, the contractor for hiring the electrician, and I'm going to fire the carpenter for being a dumbass.

milkman
05-19-2009, 03:31 AM
You need a new dictionary.

Try this one:

www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com)

me⋅di⋅o⋅cre
  /ˌmidiˈoʊkər/
–adjective
1. of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate.
2. rather poor or inferior.


The Chiefs during the Marty era were neither of those.

We've apparently had this conversation before, and I know the definition of mediocre.

The fact that Marty could coach his teams to wins against bottom dwellers and the rest of the mediocre teams on a regular basis only means that the Martyocre Chiefs were the class of mediocrity.

The fact that he couldn't coach those Martyocre Chiefs to wins in the playoffs means that they were mediocre teams that couldn't consistently compete against the better teams.