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Douche Baggins
05-18-2009, 03:36 PM
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http://static.footballguys.com/site/NFL_logos/chiefs-35.png (http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/news.php?team=kan) Chiefs | Waters asked for trade or release Mon May 18, 04:31 PM

Adam Teicher, of The Kansas City Star, reports Kansas City Chiefs OG Brian Waters asked to be traded or released after a meeting with head coach Todd Haley.


Personally I just can't believe this is happening. I think Larry has reconciled with the new regime. You'd think Brian Waters would know a good thing when he sees it?

Is this a simple case of wanting to play for an immediate contender (Waters is 32) or is Waters truly outraged at the new regime?

BigRock
05-18-2009, 03:38 PM
February called, it wants its news back.

ChiTown
05-18-2009, 03:38 PM
Sorry, we can't afford to let him go this year. We need interior lineman. Buck up, Brian, and stop being such a fucking pussy.

Thanks

Deberg_1990
05-18-2009, 03:38 PM
I dont care.

Hes a Guard. Why do we (fans) insisnt on treating him like hes a HOF QB?

End of story, Nice knowing you Brian. I dont want you anyways if your not 100% committed to this new regime.

Frazod
05-18-2009, 03:40 PM
Fuck him. Lose all the whiners. He can go to Atlanta and fetch Tony's dry cleaning for all I care.

Douche Baggins
05-18-2009, 03:40 PM
This is just baffling to me, really. I always thought Waters was one of the "good guys."

I'm really just in shock that a player can be so supportive of Herm Edwards...and yet show zero inclination towards playing for a guy like Haley.

Brainwashing.

HemiEd
05-18-2009, 03:41 PM
He needs to quit listening to his agent.

He is a fucking guard, move on. He got his feelings hurt, so bye.

Demonpenz
05-18-2009, 03:42 PM
bye bye to any me first players

penguinz
05-18-2009, 03:43 PM
He needs to quit listening to his agent.

He is a ****ing guard, move on. He got his feelings hurt, so bye.Unless something has changed he is his own agent.

HemiEd
05-18-2009, 03:43 PM
Unless something has changed he is his own agent.

Exactly, that was my point. :D

alpha_omega
05-18-2009, 03:44 PM
I would have to say both selections 1 and 3...

Meh...a guard...and...GTFO

gblowfish
05-18-2009, 03:45 PM
He runs till he pukes.
Then he runs some more.

Douche Baggins
05-18-2009, 03:45 PM
Now the guessing game becomes what can we get for Waters? A third?

BigRock
05-18-2009, 03:47 PM
Now the guessing game becomes what can we get for Waters? A third?

Jason Peters and the Bills' second rounder.

Douche Baggins
05-18-2009, 03:48 PM
Jason Peters and the Bills' second rounder.

You have an...annoying...memory for these things.

Red Beans
05-18-2009, 03:49 PM
He makes a shit ton of money, he signed a contract he negotiated himself, he is a crybaby. Trade him and let's move on. Personally I'm tired of the media wasting type on shit like this. Adios' Brian...

L.A. Chieffan
05-18-2009, 03:50 PM
anybody that ever says anything bad about the chiefs or being a chief or possibly going to a team other than the chiefs or saying anything positive about any team other than the chiefs by the power of greyskull DIF

talastan
05-18-2009, 03:52 PM
I'm thinking that if Waters was really that offended by Haley, then he needs buck up or GTFO. He is a Guard, not a freaking QB, pass rusher, or WR. Highly doubtful that he'll get the kind of money from another team that he is getting from the Chiefs. Come on Brian get with the program and be one of those "22 players!!" :D

Mr. Krab
05-18-2009, 03:52 PM
February called, it wants its news back.
This

Hog Farmer
05-18-2009, 03:53 PM
This is just baffling to me, really. I always thought Waters was one of the "good guys."

I'm really just in shock that a player can be so supportive of Herm Edwards...and yet show zero inclination towards playing for a guy like Haley.

Brainwashing.


He's a racist bastard and wants to play for a black coach!

If there's two things I hate its racist people and blacks.

So he can get the fuck out.

Buzz
05-18-2009, 03:53 PM
Do you think he planned this after the draft to hurt the Chiefs by not getting possible pics and value for this year? Either way he is gone...

NY CHIEF
05-18-2009, 03:53 PM
Trade his ass NOW.....hopefully to detroit ROFL

Pestilence
05-18-2009, 03:53 PM
Later fucker....ship him to the Bills for a 3rd round pick and move on.

I'll take a 1st, 2 2nd round picks and 2 3rd round picks in next years draft.

Reerun_KC
05-18-2009, 03:54 PM
I dont care.

Hes a Guard. Why do we (fans) insisnt on treating him like hes a HOF QB?

End of story, Nice knowing you Brian. I dont want you anyways if your not 100% committed to this new regime.

This!

Jilly
05-18-2009, 03:54 PM
I'm thinking that if Waters was really that offended by Haley, then he needs buck up or GTFO. He is a Guard, not a freaking QB, pass rusher, or WR. Highly doubtful that he'll get the kind of money from another team that he is getting from the Chiefs. Come on Brian get with the program and be one of those "22 players!!" :D

Yeah, but he's been a pro bowl -er for how many years? I agree with what you're saying, but he will be missed.

redsurfer11
05-18-2009, 03:55 PM
He's a racist bastard and wants to play for a black coach!

If there's two things I hate its racist people and blacks.

So he can get the **** out.


So, you hate yourself?

BigRock
05-18-2009, 03:56 PM
Do you think he planned this after the draft to hurt the Chiefs by not getting possible pics and value for this year? Either way he is gone...

Waters had a meeting with Haley back in February, got mad, and asked for a release or trade.

Nothing has happened since then.

This is not a new story.

kysirsoze
05-18-2009, 03:56 PM
I voted GTFO, but I really think it should be STFU. He has no leverage here. Force him to honor his contract. No more meetings with the douche. He is an employee. If he lets up on the field, bench his ass.

Mr. Krab
05-18-2009, 03:56 PM
Do you think he planned this after the draft to hurt the Chiefs by not getting possible pics and value for this year? Either way he is gone...As far and i know Waters asked for a trade way back before the draft. The writer and OP are just regurgitating old news. Btw next year's draft picks will probably end up being worth more in terms of talent.

Douche Baggins
05-18-2009, 03:57 PM
Waters had a meeting with Haley back in February, got mad, and asked for a release or trade.

Nothing has happened since then.

This is not a new story.

Well, Teicher felt the need to update that yes, he still wanted to be traded.

It felt like Waters didn't show up today, so Teicher gave him a call, and said "hey, still pissed at Haley?" And Waters said, "yes."

Reerun_KC
05-18-2009, 03:58 PM
Yeah, but he's been a pro bowl -er for how many years? I agree with what you're saying, but he will be missed.

Not as much as people think... Dude basically got ran over most of last year and gave zero push in Herms big daddy offense...

He whines and he crys, send him over to Herms house and let them coddle each other...

Mr. Krab
05-18-2009, 04:00 PM
so Teicher gave him a call, and said "hey, still pissed at Haley?" And Waters said, "yes."
link?

BigRock
05-18-2009, 04:03 PM
Well, Teicher felt the need to update that yes, he still wanted to be traded.

He was explaining why Waters wasn't at the workout.

The Chiefs started off-season practice today without two starting players, guard Brian Waters and linebacker Mike Vrabel. Waters asked to be traded or released after a meeting with coach Todd Haley.

There is nothing new to it whatsoever.

SNR
05-18-2009, 04:07 PM
I hope Pioli shoots this crybaby through the fucking brain.

ottawa_chiefs_fan
05-18-2009, 04:08 PM
Rip his left eye out and skull-fuck him!

Hoover
05-18-2009, 04:08 PM
Waters said he wouldn't go to the White House if the Chiefs won the SB next year because its not like The Man (President Obama) really wants to see him, its just a photo op they do every year. Haley said he's "effin nuts" and if he's not careful Pioli will trade your ass.

Ring ring ring.... Hello Arizona do you want an all pro guard of an all pro WR?

Douche Baggins
05-18-2009, 04:10 PM
There is nothing new to it whatsoever.

It sounds like it's new, though. That's why he didn't say "Waters had previously asked."

ClevelandBronco
05-18-2009, 04:15 PM
Kinda like Cutler. See you later, son.

Iowanian
05-18-2009, 04:15 PM
If he's not on board....bye.

I agree the Oline needs some interior help, as well as upgrade at RT(maybe, maybe via this past draft)....but I'd rather have a younger player with a little less talent who WANTS to be here.

I'm sorry your big ass is butt sore BW.

Micjones
05-18-2009, 04:20 PM
Four-time Pro Bowler? One of your best Offensive Linemen?
He won't be missed at all.
:rolleyes:

I hate the way Waters is acting, but let's stop pretending that we have a stable full of talented young Offensive Linemen. He'll be missed. That's for sure.

Wade Smith is the only respectable reserve Guard we have and he hasn't been a full-time starter since his rookie season (2003).

pr_capone
05-18-2009, 04:24 PM
Four-time Pro Bowler? One of your best Offensive Linemen?
He won't be missed at all.
:rolleyes:

I hate the way Waters is acting, but let's stop pretending that we have a stable full of talented young Offensive Linemen. He'll be missed. That's for sure.

Wade Smith is the only respectable reserve Guard we have and he hasn't been a full-time starter since his rookie season (2003).

I'm not so sure.

Herb Taylor could easily be set as the new starting LG and he showed he could handle himself at G (mind you he mostly played on the right side last year).

I also would not mind seeing Niswanger moved over to LG/RG and someone else plugged in at C.

L.A. Chieffan
05-18-2009, 04:24 PM
die waters die!@!!1!!!!!!!!!

Pestilence
05-18-2009, 04:35 PM
I'm not so sure.

Herb Taylor could easily be set as the new starting LG and he showed he could handle himself at G (mind you he mostly played on the right side last year).

I also would not mind seeing Niswanger moved over to LG/RG and someone else plugged in at C.

Albert/Goff/Niswanger/Taylor/Brown

BigRock
05-18-2009, 04:42 PM
It sounds like it's new, though. That's why he didn't say "Waters had previously asked."

Did he say Waters had another meeting with Haley and asked to be traded again?

No. Because he's referring to what happened two months ago.

Douche Baggins
05-18-2009, 04:43 PM
Did he say Waters had another meeting with Haley and asked to be traded again?

No. Because he's referring to what happened two months ago.

I guess it could be either. I'm just saying it doesn't sound to me like he's referencing the earlier report.

Mecca
05-18-2009, 04:45 PM
Albert/Goff/Niswanger/Taylor/Brown

That is a line worthy of killing a QB.

Dayze
05-18-2009, 04:45 PM
At this point with the Chiefs, I don't even give a sh*t who the players are etc.
Just shut up and win.

I'm done with all the nice guys. Bye Brian;...NEXT!

DJ's left nut
05-18-2009, 04:52 PM
I don't give a good GD about Brian Waters...but we need an Oline.

No, he's not a HOFer, but he's better than what we're going to get with a 5th round pick in the 2010 draft. Like him or not, he's still the 2nd best player on the O-line and one of the few guys we have on this team that's going to give us well above average play from his position.

Tell him to suck it up and play or he just won't get his bills this season. We can't just go dumping every annoyed malconent just because he wants out. He's under contract with the Chiefs. He'll play or he'll hold out and not get paid.

His choice.

SNR
05-18-2009, 04:58 PM
That is a line worthy of killing a QB.I hear "our line will kill Cassel" more than anything on here.

For fuck's sake, we have poor talent on the offensive line. We GET it. In the meantime though, Cassel will get sacked a bunch. He's not Brodie Croyle. He'll be fine. It's not like this is the best line we're going to see in decades. It's going to improve. The offense will improve. The team will improve. Damien McIntosh will soon be phased out.

MoreLemonPledge
05-18-2009, 05:01 PM
Guys, come on. Why would we want to get rid of a perennial Pro Bowl Guard? I mean, think about what our line has accomplished the past couple of seasons. We would be lost without him.

I can't even begin to imagine what our team would look like without our stars at TE and OG.

(/sarcasm, if it wasn't obvious)

KCUnited
05-18-2009, 05:11 PM
If a guy is hoping to get traded, he'd be a fool to show up to a voluntary workout and risk injury. As long as he does what's specified in his contract, I don't have a problem.

Pestilence
05-18-2009, 05:15 PM
That is a line worthy of killing a QB.

Ummm yeah....and what the fuck else do we have thats better?

Micjones
05-18-2009, 05:26 PM
I'm not so sure.

Herb Taylor could easily be set as the new starting LG and he showed he could handle himself at G (mind you he mostly played on the right side last year).

I also would not mind seeing Niswanger moved over to LG/RG and someone else plugged in at C.

Taylor's a little light in the ass.
That transition won't be as easy as people think.
He's 25 pounds lighter than Waters. And doesn't have much experience at Guard.

I agree that he's versatile, but not that we won't miss a beat with him in as Waters' successor.

4x Pro Bowlers aren't easily replaced. Especially not by undersized utility Offensive Linemen.

Douche Baggins
05-18-2009, 05:28 PM
Wade Smith is at guard for now. I, for one, think he did a completely serviceable job at RG last year. He was a noticeable upgrade over Adrian Jones.

Micjones
05-18-2009, 05:29 PM
Wade Smith is at guard for now. I, for one, think he did a completely serviceable job at RG last year. He was a noticeable upgrade over Adrian Jones.

That's not saying much. Jones was awful.
I think Smith's a fine reserve. Just don't know that I wanna depend on him to be a full-time starter. Especially since he hasn't been one for 6 years.

Mr. Flopnuts
05-18-2009, 05:29 PM
Brian has acted like a grade A, fucking moron since Pioli was hired. AFAIC, they can let his ass rot in a Chiefs uniform. He's a gawdamned pork chop. All he has to do is stand there.

KCChiefsMan
05-18-2009, 05:32 PM
thats the way I am with one of my Goal Line Blitz team. I've been there 2 seasons and still need 11/12 equipment upgrades possible and he keeps saying "the team stadium comes first" then he tells us that we all need to boost ASAP so we can win out and maybe make the playoffs. I tell him I will boost on the last day of the season and I have removed all my equipment upgrades and he bitches about that, I tell him it's obviously not important right? I demanded a trade or release. It just pisses me off that they wont give us a cent for equipment upgrades and he's wondering why his team sucks

Douche Baggins
05-18-2009, 05:33 PM
That's not saying much. Jones was awful.
I think Smith's a fine reserve. Just don't know that I wanna depend on him to be a full-time starter. Especially since he hasn't been one for 6 years.

I think we can "get by" with him for a year. It's not like LG is a position of huge importance. RG, in fact, is probably more important, because that lineman is frequently taking on the three-technique pass rush types.

Micjones
05-18-2009, 05:36 PM
I think we can "get by" with him for a year. It's not like LG is a position of huge importance. RG, in fact, is probably more important, because that lineman is frequently taking on the three-technique pass rush types.

"Getting by" isn't a phrase I like to associate with $14,000,000 QB.

I never sneeze at players who give you Pro Bowl-caliber performances year in and year out.
Regardless of position.

FB certainly isn't a core skill position for one to play, but you'd be lying if you said the running game hasn't suffered significantly without Tony Richardson.

I despise the way he's handling this situation, but...
1. You aren't going to get much value for him
2. You really don't have great options for replacing him

Douche Baggins
05-18-2009, 05:43 PM
"Getting by" isn't a phrase I like to associate with $14,000,000 QB.


Dude, Waters' pass protection the last couple years was not perfect. I know we had some quarterback issues but...meh. Left guards just are not huge linchpins in protection schemes. I'd bet our new left guard, should we need a new one, will get help from the center constantly.

Micjones
05-18-2009, 05:49 PM
Dude, Waters' pass protection the last couple years was not perfect. I know we had some quarterback issues but...meh. Left guards just are not huge linchpins in protection schemes. I'd bet our new left guard, should we need a new one, will get help from the center constantly.

No football player is perfect, but Waters is easily the most consistent Offensive Lineman we have. And if you hadn't noticed... Niswanger needs help quite often his damn self.

Without Waters the interior line is pretty suspect.
Remember... Niswanger isn't exactly our ideal Center.
So let's just tinker with the O-line until Cassel has no pocket to throw from.

the Talking Can
05-18-2009, 05:50 PM
they should spray paint a bus with the phrase "soft bitches," roll it up to Arrowhead, line the team up in front of it, and let anyone who wants climb aboard...then Herm can drive them off to Hooters for a gossip session about what meanies pioli and haley are....

**** Waters....you're in or you're out

Douche Baggins
05-18-2009, 05:51 PM
No football player is perfect, but Waters is easily the most consistent Offensive Lineman we have. And if you hadn't noticed... Niswanger needs help quite often his damn self.

Without Waters the interior line is pretty suspect.
Remember... Niswanger isn't exactly our ideal Center.
So let's just tinker with the O-line until Cassel has no pocket to throw from.

I see what you're saying...but if Pioli and Haley are comfortable enough with Niswanger, maybe he's not that bad? /HOMER

:D

Fat Elvis
05-18-2009, 05:53 PM
He's a racist bastard and wants to play for a black coach!

If there's two things I hate its racist people and blacks.

So he can get the **** out.

WTF?

Micjones
05-18-2009, 05:54 PM
I see what you're saying...but if Pioli and Haley are comfortable enough with Niswanger, maybe he's not that bad? /HOMER

:D

I doubt seriously that he's their guy.
Especially after Ghiaciuc was signed. I won't be surprised if he loses the job.
Which will further suck for Cassel. "Guy sucks" is worse.
We'll get to see him get blown off the ball all year long.

Halfcan
05-18-2009, 06:32 PM
All the guys that want Waters out will be bitching when our running game sucks even worse than last year.

Hog Farmer
05-18-2009, 06:37 PM
Did we not draft a 6'8" guard this year ?

Iowanian
05-18-2009, 06:38 PM
Waters' play has dropped off quite a bit, especially 2 years ago, but I didn't think he deserved the pro bowl this past time.

I don't have any problem with waters. He's been a good chief while here, but if he doesn't want to be a Chief...Eff him.

Gdaddy
05-18-2009, 06:44 PM
Some of these players are absolute idiots. Traded or released? He must be a jack ass to think he would be released. Its quite simple, hes under contract, he must play. He doesnt have "creative control" and his contract states he gets paid to play. Haley or Pioli do not owe him any explanation or are they required to sot down with Waters and explain to him what the plans are with the team. He should follow Larry's lead and get his ass on the field and help the team. I have no sympathy for these millionaire babies who get their feelings hurt. Shut up and play.

Delano
05-18-2009, 06:50 PM
http://i40.tinypic.com/317bd4y.jpg

Dick Bull
05-18-2009, 06:55 PM
thats the way I am with one of my Goal Line Blitz team. I've been there 2 seasons and still need 11/12 equipment upgrades possible and he keeps saying "the team stadium comes first" then he tells us that we all need to boost ASAP so we can win out and maybe make the playoffs. I tell him I will boost on the last day of the season and I have removed all my equipment upgrades and he bitches about that, I tell him it's obviously not important right? I demanded a trade or release. It just pisses me off that they wont give us a cent for equipment upgrades and he's wondering why his team sucks


First of all did he promise eq upgrades when you signed? Second How much of the stadium has he completed? If it's not at least the 1st then he's struggling financially year in year out. Third if you pulled that crap on the team I own I'd pull you from the depth chart, sign a replacement, remove you from the forums and then block you from pm's. You would be forgotten.

Hog Farmer
05-18-2009, 06:57 PM
Some of these players are absolute idiots. Traded or released? He must be a jack ass to think he would be released. Its quite simple, hes under contract, he must play. He doesnt have "creative control" and his contract states he gets paid to play. Haley or Pioli do not owe him any explanation or are they required to sot down with Waters and explain to him what the plans are with the team. He should follow Larry's lead and get his ass on the field and help the team. I have no sympathy for these millionaire babies who get their feelings hurt. Shut up and play.



What the Hell do you know. You only have 70 posts!

Dick Bull
05-18-2009, 07:00 PM
What the Hell do you know. You only have 70 posts!

Is Hog Farmer really an accurate depiction of your occupation?

I submit that a mod change your name to "Pig Jerker Offer"

Halfcan
05-18-2009, 07:07 PM
pig jerker offer-umm okay

Dick Bull
05-18-2009, 07:08 PM
pig jerker offer-umm okay



Does he grow pigs-no

Does he jerk them off-yes

Try to follow

Hog Farmer
05-18-2009, 07:10 PM
Is Hog Farmer really an accurate depiction of your occupation?

I submit that a mod change your name to "Pig Jerker Offer"


There's a lot more to Hog farming than jerking off the livestock. That just seems to be my specialty.

Dick Bull
05-18-2009, 07:11 PM
There's a lot more to Hog farming than jerking off the livestock. That just seems to be my specialty.


ROFL

booger
05-18-2009, 07:11 PM
There's a lot more to Hog farming than jerking off the livestock. That just seems to be my specialty.

yes butt you have to admit it beats hog focker

Gdaddy
05-18-2009, 07:27 PM
What the Hell do you know. You only have 70 posts!

Good one...

booger
05-18-2009, 07:32 PM
Good one...

he's not a bad guy even though he jacks off hogs w/out their permission.

bevischief
05-18-2009, 07:33 PM
yes butt you have to admit it beats hog focker

ROFLROFL

booger
05-18-2009, 07:35 PM
ROFLROFL

ask him about the time they taught him how to milk the boar

Coogs
05-18-2009, 08:10 PM
Waters' play has dropped off quite a bit, especially 2 years ago, but I didn't think he deserved the pro bowl this past time.

I don't have any problem with waters. He's been a good chief while here, but if he doesn't want to be a Chief...Eff him.

:clap:

Bwana
05-18-2009, 08:12 PM
stfu and play some football Waters, you limp nipple. I am so tired of these millionaire crybabies.

Raised On Riots
05-18-2009, 08:26 PM
But...but...he's from the Vermeil era!

Cassel's gonna' loooooooooove this shit.

ROFL

Cormac
05-18-2009, 09:34 PM
Waters has been a good servant. And now he's a multi-millionaire. If he feels like some middle-management condescending jackass has come in here to boss him around and he wants out, let him. I don't agree with it.......but it's no different than any of us saying "if I won the lottery I'd tell <name your boss> to shove it".

Nobody knows what transpired between Waters and Haley. And as far as I'm concerned Haley has a WHOLE lot more to prove as a HC than Waters does as a Guard. Not saying he can't do it - but it remains to be seen. I hope Waters stays (voluntarily), because we need him. If he leaves, that's his decision and there is **** all point in me getting upset or holding a grudge about it. It's a business and he knows what's best for him.

FAX
05-18-2009, 09:44 PM
Great points, Mr. Cormac. As usual.

You're right about which person has the most to prove in their role. But, just like James T. Kirk, when you're captain, you're captain. It doesn't matter if you have experience. The crew has to take orders from you and hope for the best.

Personally, I've lost a lot of respect for Waters. If he weren't a fairly talented OG, I'd probably have no respect for him whatsoever based on how he's handled this. I now view him as a p*ssy and a traitor. Sometimes in life you don't get your way. Real men deal with it ... they don't take their ball and go home. Therefore, Waters can dunk his head in a vat of horse piss and fart the libretto from "The Ballad Of Baby Doe" for all I care.

FAX

KcMizzou
05-18-2009, 10:20 PM
There's no such thing as disaster "coming" when you're coming off a 2-14 season.

The disaster has already happened. The question is, how long will it continue?

If Waters is so full of ego and pride, that he can't just be a good soldier and do his job on the field, he might as well go.

FAX
05-18-2009, 10:27 PM
There's no such thing as disaster "coming" when you're coming off a 2-14 season.

The disaster has already happened. The question is, how long will it continue?

If Waters is so full of ego and pride, that he can't just be a good soldier and do his job on the field, he might as well go.

Pride for what though, Mr. KcMizzou? I mean, what has Waters done to justify personal pride? He participated in, contributed to, and publicly supported the decisions associated with the worst KC team in history. It doesn't make sense, to me. If Waters was a truly prideful man, one would think he'd be prepared to hunker down, go to work, and play a role in turning this thing around. But no. He gets his feelings hurt because he wasn't treated like a superstar or team icon and bails. Men with pride don't do stuff like that, do they?

FAX

Skip Towne
05-18-2009, 10:30 PM
Who is Haley to have an attitude? The dipshit hasn't won a single game as a head coach. That "I can win two games with 22 guys off the street" comment was very offensive to Waters it seems. It would have been to me coming from a guy with zero wins. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Haley better hope he wins and quick. That hardass stuff is reserved for proven winners not n00bs.

KcMizzou
05-18-2009, 10:31 PM
Pride for what though, Mr. KcMizzou? I mean, what has Waters done to justify personal pride? He participated in, contributed to, and publicly supported the decisions associated with the worst KC team in history. It doesn't make sense, to me. If Waters was a truly prideful man, one would think he'd be prepared to hunker down, go to work, and play a role in turning this thing around. But no. He gets his feelings hurt because he wasn't treated like a superstar or team icon and bails. Men with pride don't do stuff like that, do they?

FAXNo, absolutely not. I totally agree with you.

He was proud enough of himself to think he deserved a meeting with the new GM (on the first day of free agency, no less) concerning the direction of the franchise, and when he was put in his place, he got all butthurt and demanded a trade.

That's all.

Raised On Riots
05-18-2009, 10:35 PM
Who is Haley to have an attitude? The dipshit hasn't won a single game as a head coach. That "I can win two games with 22 guys off the street" comment was very offensive to Waters it seems. It would have been to me coming from a guy with zero wins. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Haley better hope he wins and quick. That hardass stuff is reserved for proven winners not n00bs.

Perhaps Water's is looking for a traveling buddy? :)

FAX
05-18-2009, 10:35 PM
Who is Haley to have an attitude? The dipshit hasn't won a single game as a head coach. That "I can win two games with 22 guys off the street" comment was very offensive to Waters it seems. It would have been to me coming from a guy with zero wins. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Haley better hope he wins and quick. That hardass stuff is reserved for proven winners not n00bs.

So, you'd tell James T. Kirk to kiss Ensign Smith's ass on his first day as Captain when some rogue Romulan bastard stole the most horrific, devastating weapon conceivable and is blowing up planets willy-nilly, raping every halfway decent Vulcan chick he can transport on board, and threatening Earth's very survival?

I don't think so.

FAX

KcMizzou
05-18-2009, 10:35 PM
Who is Haley to have an attitude? The dipshit hasn't won a single game as a head coach. That "I can win two games with 22 guys off the street" comment was very offensive to Waters it seems. It would have been to me coming from a guy with zero wins. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Haley better hope he wins and quick. That hardass stuff is reserved for proven winners not n00bs.That's beside the point. Fact is, Pioli's the boss. Haley is second in command. The players have to understand that.

I'm not saying they'll succeed or fail, just that that's how it is.

booger
05-18-2009, 10:36 PM
Waters apparently showed up unannounced as well. a day or two before FA started and IIRC the Cassel trade went down a day after FA. So with all that on their plates he couldn't of picked a worse time. Or maybe that didn't matter at all.

In this case though it probably hurt him acting as his own agent. TG did all his bitching to Tom Condon and got what he wanted. Waters went to Whitlock and is still, i assume, an unhappy camper.

TEX
05-18-2009, 10:36 PM
Who is Haley to have an attitude? The dipshit hasn't won a single game as a head coach. That "I can win two games with 22 guys off the street" comment was very offensive to Waters it seems. It would have been to me coming from a guy with zero wins. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Haley better hope he wins and quick. That hardass stuff is reserved for proven winners not n00bs.

He's been that way at every stop. He gets results. It's "his" way of doing things. But, I do see your point.

Raised On Riots
05-18-2009, 10:36 PM
Waters apparently showed up unannounced as well. a day or two before FA started and IIRC the Cassel trade went down a day after FA. So with all that on their plates he couldn't of picked a worse time. Or maybe that didn't matter at all.

In this case though it probably hurt him acting as his own agent. TG did all his bitching to Tom Condon and got what he wanted. Waters went to Whitlock and is still, i assume, an unhappy camper.

Yep, his timing couldn't have been worse.

BigRedChief
05-18-2009, 10:41 PM
lousy poll.

FAX
05-18-2009, 10:49 PM
And for crying out loud, Mr. Skip Towne, what is Haley supposed to do? Until he gets a few wins under his belt, turn the team's "direction" over to Waters? Or, run the franchise's plans by every player on the squad in order to garner their approval? He's the HC. Hired to do a very specific job. He may succeed and he may fail, but either way, it isn't Waters' job ... it's Haley's. Besides, if Waters had half a brain or the judgment of a fire ant, he'd sort of figure out that Haley has more winning potential on his first day than Herm had or ever will have. Theoretically, The Chiefs exist to win championships - not placate offensive guards with more ego than common sense.

FAX

Raised On Riots
05-18-2009, 10:53 PM
And for crying out loud, Mr. Skip Towne, what is Haley supposed to do? Until he gets a few wins under his belt, turn the team's "direction" over to Waters? Or, run the franchise's plans by every player on the squad in order to garner their approval? He's the HC. Hired to do a very specific job. He may succeed and he may fail, but either way, it isn't Waters' job ... it's Haley's. Besides, if Waters had half a brain or the judgment of a fire ant, he'd sort of figure out that Haley has more winning potential on his first day than Herm had or ever will have. Theoretically, The Chiefs exist to win championships - not placate offensive guards with more ego than common sense.

FAX

Easy Mr. FUX; you keep rattling the cage, and the nurses will have to sedate the patient!:)

DeezNutz
05-18-2009, 10:53 PM
Haley has won a Championship Game and been to a SB, as a participant. Waters has...well...yeah, about that much.

STFU, Brian.

Raised On Riots
05-18-2009, 10:54 PM
Haley has won a Championship Game and been to a SB, as a participant. Waters has...well...yeah, about that much.

STFU, Brian.


ROFL

Dick Bull
05-18-2009, 10:54 PM
Who is Haley to have an attitude? The dipshit hasn't won a single game as a head coach. That "I can win two games with 22 guys off the street" comment was very offensive to Waters it seems. It would have been to me coming from a guy with zero wins. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Haley better hope he wins and quick. That hardass stuff is reserved for proven winners not n00bs.

The boss. The one who gets credits for the wins and criticism for the losses. The one who has the most impact on the team. He got the job, now it's his to lose. Perhaps if waters would have had more respect for haley's position the altercation would have never had happened.

booger
05-18-2009, 10:55 PM
He's pretty much stuck. They won't cut him because they can afford to keep him. If he holds out they will put him on the did not report list rather than extend or redo his contract. He publically pissed and moaned about being disrespected. That leaves him with about as much value as LJ as far as other teams are concerned. Honestly i think this is all about money. Not this but last FA year(maybe even '07, not sure) Eric Steinbach and a couple other Guards got mega deals. This all while Waters just redid his contract a year or two before they got their big deals. They got way overpaid because of the over spending that has occurred the past few FA years. So he got less money on a contract extension than if he hit the FA market as a pro bowl guard.

An agent would have told him that. Last year he was asked about moving to C with the team losing Weigmann and he said sure and indicated all it would take was redoing his contract.

orange
05-18-2009, 10:55 PM
So, you'd tell James T. Kirk to kiss Ensign Smith's ass on his first day as Captain when some rogue Romulan bastard stole the most horrific, devastating weapon conceivable and is blowing up planets willy-nilly, raping every halfway decent Vulcan chick he can transport on board, and threatening Earth's very survival?

I don't think so.

FAX

An interesting analogy. Let's go a little further with it. As you may remember, Spock was already aboard the Enterprise under Capt. Pike. Do you suppose on Kirk's first day as Captain he told Spock to shove his advice and his pointy ears in his piehole and let a REAL captain show him how a Star Fleet Vessal is run?

Skip Towne
05-18-2009, 10:56 PM
And for crying out loud, Mr. Skip Towne, what is Haley supposed to do? Until he gets a few wins under his belt, turn the team's "direction" over to Waters? Or, run the franchise's plans by every player on the squad in order to garner their approval? He's the HC. Hired to do a very specific job. He may succeed and he may fail, but either way, it isn't Waters' job ... it's Haley's. Besides, if Waters had half a brain or the judgment of a fire ant, he'd sort of figure out that Haley has more winning potential on his first day than Herm had or ever will have. Theoretically, The Chiefs exist to win championships - not placate offensive guards with more ego than common sense.

FAX

Other than Stram and Marty, the Chiefs exist to shit in their own nest. Perennial losers. I say win then talk about it. Anybody can talk tough. Remember Frank Kush?

wasi
05-18-2009, 10:58 PM
That's beside the point. Fact is, Pioli's the boss. Haley is second in command. The players have to understand that.

I'm not saying they'll succeed or fail, just that that's how it is.

I'd be more inclined to be unhappy with this new hierarchy Pioli has implemented if it was actually a player who still had an impact on the outcome of the season or even the future of the team. The Steelers did just fine after they let Faneca go, another guard and probably atleast close to par with Waters ability.

I've been patient before judging Haley, and so far I like what I hear from him.

FAX
05-18-2009, 11:01 PM
"Gee whiz, Brian. I sure do thank you for coming in to see us. It's a real honor to finally meet you. I'd like to get your autograph for the kids, if you don't mind. Boy, you guys sure had some bad breaks the last few years. But, what could you do? I mean, I know it wasn't your fault you couldn't win a game or beat the absolute worst teams in the league and that you set the franchise record for suck in every conceivable category and lost the time-honored, traditional, Arrowhead homefield advantage and wound up embarrassing yourselves as a football club and organization in every way possible. Bad breaks, buddy. That ball just bounces funny, sometimes. I'd really appreciate your thoughts on how Pioli and I can do our jobs because it's obvious that you know more about winning than anybody else in this league. Listen, would you like some chocolate cake and ice cream? Or, we can call out for pizza, if you like."

FAX

booger
05-18-2009, 11:06 PM
Texans | Busing, Jones signed
Mon, 18 May 2009 16:54:14 -0700

Brooke Bentley, of HoustonTexans.com, reports the Houston Texans have signed unrestricted free-agent SS John Busing (Bengals) and OG Adrian Jones (Chiefs). Terms of the contracts were not disclosed.

Raised On Riots
05-18-2009, 11:08 PM
"Gee whiz, Brian. I sure do thank you for coming in to see us. It's a real honor to finally meet you. I'd like to get your autograph for the kids, if you don't mind. Boy, you guys sure had some bad breaks the last few years. But, what could you do? I mean, I know it wasn't your fault you couldn't win a game or beat the absolute worst teams in the league and that you set the franchise record for suck in every conceivable category and lost the time-honored, traditional, Arrowhead homefield advantage and wound up embarrassing yourselves as a football club and organization in every way possible. Bad breaks, buddy. That ball just bounces funny, sometimes. I'd really appreciate your thoughts on how Pioli and I can do our jobs because it's obvious that you know more about winning than anybody else in this league. Listen, would you like some chocolate cake and ice cream? Or, we can call out for pizza, if you like."

FAX

ROFL:clap: NOW you're swinging the DCS/ROR power-stick. EMBRACE IT!

FAX
05-18-2009, 11:08 PM
Other than Stram and Marty, the Chiefs exist to shit in their own nest. Perennial losers. I say win then talk about it. Anybody can talk tough. Remember Frank Kush?

Point, Mr. Skip Towne.

Here's what I think, though. I think you have to start with the talk ... the attitude ... the tone ... whatever you want to call it. Then, you translate that into a mentality that permeates the organization. If Haley just spouts supporting platitudes, these guys won't get any better and we will not be feared on the field of battle.

Yes, the Chiefs have been losers. No question. Yet, in order to change that, the attitude of the franchise has to change. I support that effort wholeheartedly.

As for Frank Kush, all I know about him is that he was insane and Curly Culp once busted a teammate's facemask during one of Kush's insane practices to the delight of Kush, as I recall the story.

FAX

Skip Towne
05-18-2009, 11:12 PM
Haley says he can win two games with players off the street but we don't know if he can win one game yet since he hasn't.

FAX
05-18-2009, 11:16 PM
Haley says he can win two games with players off the street but we don't know if he can win one game yet since he hasn't.

Look, you have more knowledge of football and football history in your left testicle than I have in my entire lineage, Mr. Skip Towne. Therefore, it is silly for me to argue with you.

Nevertheless, although it is fair to say that Haley has to ultimately prove he has the right to tell the players they suck ass by winning, it doesn't mean that he can't tell them they suck ass in the meantime. Does it? I mean, regardless if the HC is competent, proven, effective, or otherwise, the HC gets to tell the players they suck ass. That's how it works. Right?

FAX

Boris The Great
05-18-2009, 11:19 PM
Is this a time warp? This story is two months old.

I bet Claythan passed this to Nick, who will write about this like its breaking news that just happened.

T-post Tom
05-18-2009, 11:21 PM
Look, you have more knowledge of football and football history in your left testicle than I have in my entire lineage, Mr. Skip Towne. Therefore, it is silly for me to argue with you.

Nevertheless, although it is fair to say that Haley has to ultimately prove he has the right to tell the players they suck ass by winning, it doesn't mean that he can't tell them they suck ass in the meantime. Does it? I mean, regardless if the HC is competent, proven, effective, or otherwise, the HC gets to tell the players they suck ass. That's how it works. Right?

FAX

Does filling your testes with football knowledge and history serve as a viable method of birth control?

FAX
05-18-2009, 11:24 PM
An interesting analogy. Let's go a little further with it. As you may remember, Spock was already aboard the Enterprise under Capt. Pike. Do you suppose on Kirk's first day as Captain he told Spock to shove his advice and his pointy ears in his piehole and let a REAL captain show him how a Star Fleet Vessal is run?

Hmmm. Good point there, Mr. orange. Very good point.

Still, if Spock hadn't concocted that ridiculous, no-win, Kamacachie Muldoon, test scenario thingie, Kirk wouldn't have had to re-program it. And, if Kirk hadn't re-programmed it, he wouldn't have been called up on charges and, instead, would have been First Officer under Captain Pike which means that Spock would never have been acting Captain and, therefore, Kirk wouldn't have had to tell Spock to shove his ears in a piehole as you have so stated.

Now, since Waters never took the Kamacachie Muldoon and, if he had, he would have failed as miserably as the Chiefs have, he has no standing on the bridge whatsoever and is, instead, one of the Ensign guys in the red shirt who are the first to die when they beam down to investigate a planet.

Therefore, your effort to diminish the appropriateness of my analogy is erroneous both in general concept and execution.

FAX

Raised On Riots
05-18-2009, 11:34 PM
Haley is the ONE aspect of this new era that as of today, right now, I have NO concerns about.
If anything, it's the support staff beneath him that troubles me. This season will be better than 2008, but it will not be pretty and it will not be a Cinderella story, and Rome will not be built in a day.

wazu
05-18-2009, 11:48 PM
Love Brian Waters, but choosing between him and the last, best hope for a successful Chiefs regime, isn't any choice at all...

Jethopper
05-19-2009, 05:09 AM
Could this signify a ......changing of the guard......

Mile High Mania
05-19-2009, 05:13 AM
Is this a time warp? This story is two months old.

I bet Claythan passed this to Nick, who will write about this like its breaking news that just happened.

Premium content, dude.

Hog Farmer
05-19-2009, 06:16 AM
I remember when I was given the job as head masturbater, I came in talking smack, I was ready to kick ass and take names.

And I proved to be a winner.

When you have talent and desire (and forearms like popeye) you can be successful !

Warrior5
05-19-2009, 06:29 AM
Hmmm. Good point there, Mr. orange. Very good point.

Still, if Spock hadn't concocted that ridiculous, no-win, Kamacachie Muldoon, test scenario thingie, Kirk wouldn't have had to re-program it. And, if Kirk hadn't re-programmed it, he wouldn't have been called up on charges and, instead, would have been First Officer under Captain Pike which means that Spock would never have been acting Captain and, therefore, Kirk wouldn't have had to tell Spock to shove his ears in a piehole as you have so stated.FAX

Uh, Mr. Fax? I think Mr. Claythan has stolen your IP address and is posting as you.

Better check into that.

the Talking Can
05-19-2009, 06:40 AM
Who is Haley to have an attitude? The dipshit hasn't won a single game as a head coach. That "I can win two games with 22 guys off the street" comment was very offensive to Waters it seems. It would have been to me coming from a guy with zero wins. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Haley better hope he wins and quick. That hardass stuff is reserved for proven winners not n00bs.

Haley is the head coach. Waters is an over rated guard on a shitty team that has accomplished nothing, ever.


thus endeth the lesson....


Waters "bought in" to a clown like Herm Edwards. But not Haley and Pioli, both of whom have been involved with superbowl teams?

Waters is a dumbass. And he can beat it.

FAX
05-19-2009, 07:02 AM
I have a question ... I probably knew this at one time, but if I did, I've forgotten so this is kind of like a do-over unless I never knew this, in which case it isn't a do-over, it's more like just a do ... but ...

What happens if Pioli and Haley say, "Screw you, Waters. You're under contract and you will practice and play your position." and Waters says, "Screw you back, Pioli and Haley. I won't show up for practice and I won't play."? The Chiefs don't have to pay Waters, correct? But they are penalized because he takes up a roster spot, right? Or, does Waters lose his salary in addition to paying fines? Anybody know the details on a deal like this?

FAX

The Bad Guy
05-19-2009, 07:13 AM
Haley is the head coach. Waters is an over rated guard on a shitty team that has accomplished nothing, ever.


thus endeth the lesson....


Waters "bought in" to a clown like Herm Edwards. But not Haley and Pioli, both of whom have been involved with superbowl teams?

Waters is a dumbass. And he can beat it.

Absolutely agree.

Waters wanted a country club atmosphere where he wasn't challenged anymore. Haley comes in and issues a challenge, and Waters tucks his tail and cries about disrespect.

Here's a newsflash Waters: The days of the TE and LG dominating this team with their "leadership" are over. Get used to it. Sorry Haley didn't powder your ass like Vermeil and Herm.

Get this fucking idiot off the team.

The Bad Guy
05-19-2009, 07:14 AM
I have a question ... I probably knew this at one time, but if I did, I've forgotten so this is kind of like a do-over unless I never knew this, in which case it isn't a do-over, it's more like just a do ... but ...

What happens if Pioli and Haley say, "Screw you, Waters. You're under contract and you will practice and play your position." and Waters says, "Screw you back, Pioli and Haley. I won't show up for practice and I won't play."? The Chiefs don't have to pay Waters, correct? But they are penalized because he takes up a roster spot, right? Or, does Waters lose his salary in addition to paying fines? Anybody know the details on a deal like this?

FAX

The Chiefs would put him on some type of list where they wouldn't have to pay him, and they would also fine the shit out of him per day.

It wouldn't count as a roster spot either.

Brian Waters has zero leverage.

kcbubb
05-19-2009, 08:11 AM
Who is Haley to have an attitude? The dipshit hasn't won a single game as a head coach. That "I can win two games with 22 guys off the street" comment was very offensive to Waters it seems. It would have been to me coming from a guy with zero wins. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Haley better hope he wins and quick. That hardass stuff is reserved for proven winners not n00bs.

What I don't understand is why treat one of your pro bowlers with disrespect??? I don't think you have to brown nose the player or anything but you can get your point across without disrespecting the player.

What does Haley have to gain by pissing off one of the few pro bowlers on this team?

I think you can change the attitude and leadership where the players are coddled but come on, I agree with Skip Towne that Haley didn't handle this situation correctly.

I have seen very few posts on here giving Haley some of the blame. I agree that Waters should do his job. I'm not defending that, but Haley needs to do everything he can help this team win and treating a pro bowler with disrespect does not get you there.

ChiTown
05-19-2009, 08:13 AM
In retrospect, screw Brian Waters and his bruised vagina.

Next!...............

kcbubb
05-19-2009, 08:18 AM
Absolutely agree.

Waters wanted a country club atmosphere where he wasn't challenged anymore. Haley comes in and issues a challenge, and Waters tucks his tail and cries about disrespect.

Here's a newsflash Waters: The days of the TE and LG dominating this team with their "leadership" are over. Get used to it. Sorry Haley didn't powder your ass like Vermeil and Herm.

Get this ****ing idiot off the team.

Lets remember that this is a voluntary mini camp that he is missing. And the guard position is one of our weakest spots on the entire roster.

We need Waters to play even it is a situation where he is not happy but plays. We need his help in the running game. Waters will show up when he is getting paid to be there.

Sure-Oz
05-19-2009, 08:57 AM
Waters has always showed up for these things, but not this year...why cause he's a butthurt baby.

boogblaster
05-19-2009, 09:29 AM
Waters is cooked grilled fried spent send his big lazy ass packin .....

L.A. Chieffan
05-19-2009, 09:40 AM
IS THIS POS SHIT DEAD YET!?!?!?! AHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAH I WANT TO EAT HIS HEART I WANT TO EAT HIS CHILDREN!!!!!!PRAISE BE TO ALLAH!

King_Chief_Fan
05-19-2009, 10:31 AM
What I don't understand is why treat one of your pro bowlers with disrespect??? I don't think you have to brown nose the player or anything but you can get your point across without disrespecting the player.

What does Haley have to gain by pissing off one of the few pro bowlers on this team?

I think you can change the attitude and leadership where the players are coddled but come on, I agree with Skip Towne that Haley didn't handle this situation correctly.

I have seen very few posts on here giving Haley some of the blame. I agree that Waters should do his job. I'm not defending that, but Haley needs to do everything he can help this team win and treating a pro bowler with disrespect does not get you there.

Waters calls it disrespect. What was said? What was the intent. I get tired of these ass hats throwing the disrespect card around.
Come do your job if you want respect.

EyePod
05-19-2009, 11:02 AM
He's just pissed that Haley called him out on the Chiefs sucking. I know it wasn't their fault, and they were always getting told that it wasn't because of Herm. The fact was, Herm got them all feeling like they could get along just on talent. Sure they're talented, but you can't win in the NFL just with talent. You need good coaching, and Herm was not that. Waters just bought into Herm's BS and is mad because Haley told him that it was BS.

CoMoChief
05-19-2009, 11:13 AM
I dont care.

Hes a Guard. Why do we (fans) insisnt on treating him like hes a HOF QB?

End of story, Nice knowing you Brian. I dont want you anyways if your not 100% committed to this new regime.

Because if we want a QB to even live on this roster we need him to block for us.

BWillie
05-19-2009, 11:29 AM
I actually don't blame him. Haley came in wanting to purge the system of Herm and even Vermeil guys and start out fresh. I don't have a problem with that while looking at it from a distance and on my perch, but I can certainly understand how he could of rubbed Waters, Gonzalez, and Will Franklin wrong. I don't have a problem with what Haley did, or what Waters wants. It's a business.

JASONSAUTO
05-19-2009, 11:44 AM
What I don't understand is why treat one of your pro bowlers with disrespect??? I don't think you have to brown nose the player or anything but you can get your point across without disrespecting the player.

What does Haley have to gain by pissing off one of the few pro bowlers on this team?

I think you can change the attitude and leadership where the players are coddled but come on, I agree with Skip Towne that Haley didn't handle this situation correctly.

I have seen very few posts on here giving Haley some of the blame. I agree that Waters should do his job. I'm not defending that, but Haley needs to do everything he can help this team win and treating a pro bowler with disrespect does not get you there.

WHAT DO you expect when BEFORE haley was hired waters and some others were saying that herm should stay, and that if the new guys started winning that it would be BECAUSE of herm. not what the new guys did... HERM. so yeah fuck them.

kcbubb
05-19-2009, 01:51 PM
Waters calls it disrespect. What was said? What was the intent. I get tired of these ass hats throwing the disrespect card around.
Come do your job if you want respect.

How has Waters not done his job??? He's been a pro bowler like 3 times. He is one of the Chiefs that has done his job.

There has to be some middle ground on this. I'm not saying that Waters should be wined and dined, but at least give the guy some respect.

It doesn't help the team to piss Waters off. I think Haley could have handled it better. If we lose Waters, some of the blame should go to Waters but a lot of the blame should go to Haley too.

Why does Haley get a free pass around here?

Raised On Riots
05-19-2009, 01:53 PM
How has Waters not done his job??? He's been a pro bowler like 3 times. He is one of the Chiefs that has done his job.

There has to be some middle ground on this. I'm not saying that Waters should be wined and dined, but at least give the guy some respect.

It doesn't help the team to piss Waters off. I think Haley could have handled it better. If we lose Waters, some of the blame should go to Waters but a lot of the blame should go to Haley too.

Why does Haley get a free pass around here?

Well, as noted before; it's HIS show.

And, he's done nothing yet as the Head Coach of the Chiefs that can be performance-graded( games ).

milkman
05-19-2009, 01:59 PM
And he gets a free pass because he ain't stroking us with some bullshit about how great a job Herman fucking Edwards did, while at the same time you have a fucking idiot in Waters telling us that Herman fucking Edwards was the best thing since sliced bread

Raised On Riots
05-19-2009, 02:04 PM
And he gets a free pass because he ain't stroking us with some bullshit about how great a job Herman fucking Edwards did, while at the same time you have a fucking idiot in Waters telling us that Herman fucking Edwards was the best thing since sliced bread

This.:)

Personally, I feel confident in the guy. The people I've heard from who actually spend time around him and have watched him work liken his overall method and personality to some very big coaching names, past and present, that command respect.

Obviously, we have to wait and see in order to truly grade Haley, but my overall instincts tell me this guy is good for Kansas City.

milkman
05-19-2009, 02:10 PM
This.:)

Personally, I feel confident in the guy. The people I've heard from who actually spend time around him and have watched him work liken his overall method and personality to some very big coaching names, past and present, that command respect.

Obviously, we have to wait and see in order to truly grade Haley, but my overall instincts tell me this guy is good for Kansas City.

Haley wasn't on the list of guys on my wish list, but at the same time, I wasn't totally pisssed off that he was hired like I have been for every hire since Paul Wiggin, Marv Levy excluded.

kcbubb
05-19-2009, 02:13 PM
This.:)

Personally, I feel confident in the guy. The people I've heard from who actually spend time around him and have watched him work liken his overall method and personality to some very big coaching names, past and present, that command respect.

Obviously, we have to wait and see in order to truly grade Haley, but my overall instincts tell me this guy is good for Kansas City.

well.... I hope he is good and he will need to be with these starters. I really don't think that lineup is going to scare anyone.

Offense
QB - Matt Cassel
RB - Larry Johnson
FB - Mike Cox
WR - Dwayne Bowe
WR - Mark Bradley
TE - Brad Cottam
LT - Branden Albert
LG - Wade Smith
C - Rudy Niswanger
RG - Mike Goff
RT - Damion McIntosh

Defense
LE - Tyson Jackson
NT - Tank Tyler
RE - Glenn Dorsey
OLB - Mike Vrabel
ILB - Zach Thomas
ILB - Derrick Johnson
OLB - Tamba Hali
CB - Brandon Flowers
CB - Brandon Carr
FS - Jarrad Page
SS - Bernard Pollard

Raised On Riots
05-19-2009, 02:20 PM
well.... I hope he is good and he will need to be with these starters. I really don't think that lineup is going to scare anyone.

Offense
QB - Matt Cassel
RB - Larry Johnson
FB - Mike Cox
WR - Dwayne Bowe
WR - Mark Bradley
TE - Brad Cottam
LT - Branden Albert
LG - Wade Smith
C - Rudy Niswanger
RG - Mike Goff
RT - Damion McIntosh

Defense
LE - Tyson Jackson
NT - Tank Tyler
RE - Glenn Dorsey
OLB - Mike Vrabel
ILB - Zach Thomas
ILB - Derrick Johnson
OLB - Tamba Hali
CB - Brandon Flowers
CB - Brandon Carr
FS - Jarrad Page
SS - Bernard Pollard

I see your point. But man, you need to get it in your head that this team has one more draft followed by one more season after said draft to even be at the starting point of making a real run.
I would even venture one more season after that before we really load the wagon and head out.

This is what complacency, Carl, and Herm buy you. It's a deep hole to dig out of.

kcbubb
05-19-2009, 02:47 PM
I see your point. But man, you need to get it in your head that this team has one more draft followed by one more season after said draft to even be at the starting point of making a real run.
I would even venture one more season after that before we really load the wagon and head out.

This is what complacency, Carl, and Herm buy you. It's a deep hole to dig out of.

it makes me sick to think that I have to wait that long for competitive chiefs football.

get your stones ready.....

The Chiefs would be closer to making the playoffs with Herm than with Haley. I didn't say superbowl. I said playoffs.

This defense was built for the 4-3 and could have made bigger improvements in a shorter period of time especially when you consider what they could have added on defense in the draft with Aaron Curry and Everette Brown in rounds 1 and 2.

The chiefs defense was 13th in the league in 2007 and dropped like a rock in 2008 with the departure of Jared Allen.

It is feasible to think that the chiefs could have been a top 15 defense in 2009 with Curry and Brown since they were 13th in 2007.

The offense was performing statistically like a an offense in the top 20 for the last 8 games of the season.

Could the Chiefs have made the playoffs this year with a good 09 draft with Herm? I don't know. But I think we would have been closer than we are now, especially if the defense improved and played like 07 and the offense played like a top 20 offense.

I'm not saying that I wanted Herm to stay. But the current progression of the roster depresses me. And I know that it is really pointless to play the what if game with our roster, but that is what message boards are for right.... useless comments and speculation...

Maybe we should have gone with a GM that prefers the 4-3 not the 3-4????

I know I'm jumping the gun. I hope that Pioli and Haley are successful. But I really don't feel good about the starters and the depth we have at certain positions.

flame away... i know that anything that could be resembled as support for Herm will get a :cuss:

Raised On Riots
05-19-2009, 03:02 PM
it makes me sick to think that I have to wait that long for competitive chiefs football.

get your stones ready.....

The Chiefs would be closer to making the playoffs with Herm than with Haley. I didn't say superbowl. I said playoffs.

This defense was built for the 4-3 and could have made bigger improvements in a shorter period of time especially when you consider what they could have added on defense in the draft with Aaron Curry and Everette Brown in rounds 1 and 2.

The chiefs defense was 13th in the league in 2007 and dropped like a rock in 2008 with the departure of Jared Allen.

It is feasible to think that the chiefs could have been a top 15 defense in 2009 with Curry and Brown since they were 13th in 2007.

The offense was performing statistically like a an offense in the top 20 for the last 8 games of the season.

Could the Chiefs have made the playoffs this year with a good 09 draft with Herm? I don't know. But I think we would have been closer than we are now, especially if the defense improved and played like 07 and the offense played like a top 20 offense.

I'm not saying that I wanted Herm to stay. But the current progression of the roster depresses me. And I know that it is really pointless to play the what if game with our roster, but that is what message boards are for right.... useless comments and speculation...

Maybe we should have gone with a GM that prefers the 4-3 not the 3-4????

I know I'm jumping the gun. I hope that Pioli and Haley are successful. But I really don't feel good about the starters and the depth we have at certain positions.

flame away... i know that anything that could be resembled as support for Herm will get a :cuss:

I'm not going to stone you, but I will tell you that the long-term outlook for this team more than makes up for any Herm Edwards, "let's back it up in to the playoffs by the grace of fate, and everything's cool"-playoff appearances that would have about a 10% success rate in terms of advancing further.

And in all the years I've watched this team, I have NEVER seen a more piss-poor Field General than Herm Edwards. Bad decisions ALL OVER God's creation with that guy. He was not a help to this franchise, he was a hindrance.

And the other "could'a-would'a's" you're citing can be traced DIRECTLY back to Carl.
I hate waiting for this too. We lost a LOT of valuable time. But it is what it is, and least you can have some fun and feel confident as the team gets better that you're actually headed somewhere.

Douche Baggins
05-19-2009, 03:12 PM
Hilarious that people think Everette Brown was going to play RDE at 6-1 250.

Douche Baggins
05-19-2009, 03:14 PM
Also hilarious that people think Herm Edwards making the playoffs means anything.

All it means is the same fuckin' thing - HEARTBREAK.

soundmind
05-19-2009, 03:18 PM
Hilarious that people think Everette Brown was going to play RDE at 6-1 250.

Funnier still that someone would actually prefer to have gone into this season with Thigpen/Croyle/Quinn as QB options....

Top 20 offense? Dude, there are only 32 teams last I checked. That's basically a 1.2 GPA....while the defense got a 0.2....I fail to see anything there worth following.

Raised On Riots
05-19-2009, 03:18 PM
Also hilarious that people think Herm Edwards making the playoffs means anything.

All it means is the same fuckin' thing - HEARTBREAK.

Bingo. Greatest sig in the history of the internet by the way.:)

Raised On Riots
05-19-2009, 03:19 PM
Funnier still that someone would actually prefer to have gone into this season with Thigpen/Croyle/Quinn as QB options....

Top 20 offense? Dude, there are only 32 teams last I checked. That's basically a 1.2 GPA....while the defense got a 0.2....I fail to see anything there worth following.

This! You would never see a franchise QB coming from a Carl-led Chiefs.

kcbubb
05-19-2009, 04:09 PM
Hilarious that people think Everette Brown was going to play RDE at 6-1 250.

He could have been huge on passing downs. I would have started Turk on running downs and put in Brown in passing situations in this hypothetical world.

kcbubb
05-19-2009, 04:11 PM
Also hilarious that people think Herm Edwards making the playoffs means anything.

All it means is the same ****in' thing - HEARTBREAK.

I wouldn't necessarily support Herm, but another GM with a 4-3 background instead 3-4 would have been a better fit for the team. The turn around would have been quicker.

Currently it looks it is going to be a while before we are competitive again.

kcbubb
05-19-2009, 04:19 PM
Funnier still that someone would actually prefer to have gone into this season with Thigpen/Croyle/Quinn as QB options....

Top 20 offense? Dude, there are only 32 teams last I checked. That's basically a 1.2 GPA....while the defense got a 0.2....I fail to see anything there worth following.

the point is that it appears that this next season is going to suck. we have sucked for the last 2 years. after 2 years of suckage another season of suckage depresses me.

the team as a whole would have been closer the to the playoffs and mediocrity with Thigpen running the offense and drafting for defense and maybe a lineman late and playing the 4-3 defense. I said mediocrity not the super bowl. at this point, I dare say that I would be excited about mediocrity. If we have any injuries at all this team looks completely terrible.

DaWolf
05-19-2009, 04:21 PM
I wouldn't necessarily support Herm, but another GM with a 4-3 background instead 3-4 would have been a better fit for the team. The turn around would have been quicker.

Currently it looks it is going to be a while before we are competitive again.

Why?

4-3 defense hasn't been getting it done here for 10 years.

Another thing to remember, just because we drafted guys high doesn't mean they're any good. Case in point: Ryan Sims.

I'm not looking for quick turnarounds. The packers went from losing team to 8-8 to 13-3, and then fell flat on their faces again. What I'm looking for is something that will last like Pittsburgh and New England have...

Raised On Riots
05-19-2009, 04:21 PM
the point is that it appears that this next season is going to suck. we have sucked for the last 2 years. after 2 years of suckage another season of suckage depresses me.

the team as a whole would have been closer the to the playoffs and mediocrity with Thigpen running the offense and drafting for defense and maybe a lineman late and playing the 4-3 defense. I said mediocrity not the super bowl. at this point, I dare say that I would be excited about mediocrity. If we have any injuries at all this team looks completely terrible.

Dude, you just TF'd King Kong-size. That was painful to read.

Douche Baggins
05-19-2009, 04:22 PM
I dare say that I would be excited about mediocrity

ARREST THIS MAN

Raised On Riots
05-19-2009, 04:23 PM
Why?

4-3 defense hasn't been getting it done here for 10 years.

Another thing to remember, just because we drafted guys high doesn't mean they're any good. Case in point: Ryan Sims.

I'm not looking for quick turnarounds. The packers went from losing team to 8-8 to 13-3, and then fell flat on their faces again. What I'm looking for is something that will last like Pittsburgh and New England have...

I hear ya'. You take the best elements from the overall philosophies of each of those clubs, and you've got something deadly serious.

Raised On Riots
05-19-2009, 04:24 PM
ARREST THIS MAN
[/b]

That was Guinness Book of World Records TF.

kcbubb
05-19-2009, 04:27 PM
Dude, you just TF'd King Kong-size. That was painful to read.


I'm just tired of losing... and with that line up.... it's depressing..

obviously, it will be worth it if can get to a superbowl. I hope that Hailey can make me into a believer. But right now, I just don't see it.

And after this last draft, I'm wondering if Pioli is the draft guru I wanted him to be...

I need some hope!!! I just don't see much to be excited about.

Just Passin' By
05-19-2009, 04:32 PM
I wouldn't necessarily support Herm, but another GM with a 4-3 background instead 3-4 would have been a better fit for the team. The turn around would have been quicker.

Currently it looks it is going to be a while before we are competitive again.

This team's front seven is really all you're talking about when you talk 4-3 vs. 3-4, so where's the big loss of talent in those 7 spots that happened because of the switch?

Raised On Riots
05-19-2009, 04:33 PM
I'm just tired of losing... and with that line up.... it's depressing..

obviously, it will be worth it if can get to a superbowl. I hope that Hailey can make me into a believer. But right now, I just don't see it.

And after this last draft, I'm wondering if Pioli is the draft guru I wanted him to be...

I need some hope!!! I just don't see much to be excited about.

When camp starts and everything is picking up speed and moving again, you'll be feeling good about things. As a displaced fan, I look forward to seeing Arrowhead full again as I watch games at the sports bar with the other fans of different teams.

You think it's been hard at home? Try being a fan of this team in a place where pretty much EVERY team has a fan in the room on Sunday, and you're getting blown out at home against the Raiders. You get thick skin really fucking quick. You lose patience with the team even quicker.

kcbubb
05-19-2009, 04:34 PM
Why?

4-3 defense hasn't been getting it done here for 10 years.

Another thing to remember, just because we drafted guys high doesn't mean they're any good. Case in point: Ryan Sims.

I'm not looking for quick turnarounds. The packers went from losing team to 8-8 to 13-3, and then fell flat on their faces again. What I'm looking for is something that will last like Pittsburgh and New England have...

that would be great... and I hope for that. but the only thing that I have been excited about has been the Cassell trade. nothing else.

we drafted 2 RDE.... woo hoo.... we traded away Tony.. and Waters wants to leave too.

Vrabel won't show up... are the wheels falling off???

Our o-line has no depth... Herb Taylor can only play so many positions.

we also have no depth at LB. Monty Beisel???? give me a break!

I need something to be optimistic about right now.

Micjones
05-19-2009, 05:01 PM
that would be great... and I hope for that. but the only thing that I have been excited about has been the Cassell trade. nothing else.

we drafted 2 RDE.... woo hoo.... we traded away Tony.. and Waters wants to leave too.

Vrabel won't show up... are the wheels falling off???

Our o-line has no depth... Herb Taylor can only play so many positions.

we also have no depth at LB. Monty Beisel???? give me a break!

I need something to be optimistic about right now.

The Cassel acquisition was huge.
Having a real answer at QB is more than half the battle.
They took a slight step back by trading Gonzalez though.
Without weapons Matt Cassel will struggle. Just like any other QB.
They need to give him a reliable #2.

Mike Goff was a solid signing as well. He's going to significantly upgrade the Right Guard spot where you previously had no answers.

Bobby Engram is going to surprise some people I think.
I think this guy can still play. He's such a heady football player. I think he'll be very valuable to Cassel in Third Down situations.

The Chiefs first two draftpicks weren't sexy picks, but they will help improve this team's run defense and absorb O-line bodies so LB's can get after the QB. Vrabel and Thomas will be assets to this team in more ways than one. Having LB's who won't take two steps in the wrong direction at the snap will help this defense. They're smart defenders who will help guide the young players on that side of the ball.

This team still has work to do. I'd look for some veteran help at LB (Tinoisamoa for my money) who can help improve the pass rush. We also need someone to play opposite of Bowe. Bradley's our best option there and he's proven that he'll probably have injury concerns throughout the year.

I think I might make a run at RT as well to really solidify the O-line.

kcbubb
05-19-2009, 07:54 PM
The Cassel acquisition was huge.
Having a real answer at QB is more than half the battle.
They took a slight step back by trading Gonzalez though.
Without weapons Matt Cassel will struggle. Just like any other QB.
They need to give him a reliable #2.

Mike Goff was a solid signing as well. He's going to significantly upgrade the Right Guard spot where you previously had no answers.

Bobby Engram is going to surprise some people I think.
I think this guy can still play. He's such a heady football player. I think he'll be very valuable to Cassel in Third Down situations.

The Chiefs first two draftpicks weren't sexy picks, but they will help improve this team's run defense and absorb O-line bodies so LB's can get after the QB. Vrabel and Thomas will be assets to this team in more ways than one. Having LB's who won't take two steps in the wrong direction at the snap will help this defense. They're smart defenders who will help guide the young players on that side of the ball.

This team still has work to do. I'd look for some veteran help at LB (Tinoisamoa for my money) who can help improve the pass rush. We also need someone to play opposite of Bowe. Bradley's our best option there and he's proven that he'll probably have injury concerns throughout the year.

I think I might make a run at RT as well to really solidify the O-line.

thanks. I appreciate the effort. hopefully you are right. I really can't get excited about relying on so many 34+ players to play major roles.

and really... I hear so much about these players guiding our young guys. Really the young guys that will play are Flowers, Carr, Albert, Dorsey, Cottam, and Charles. the old guys that we picked up don't even play any of these positions. I understand that they will lead still. But I really don't buy it. That's just a way to sell the fan base on older players. I could buy into that last year with Tony and Cottam bc he could kind of mentor the guy. But how is Zach Thomas and Vrabel going to lead Brandon Flowers? I don't think so.

If it were about leading, they would have kept Tony. He prepared to play as well as any one in the league.

Just Passin' By
05-19-2009, 08:23 PM
thanks. I appreciate the effort. hopefully you are right. I really can't get excited about relying on so many 34+ players to play major roles.

and really... I hear so much about these players guiding our young guys. Really the young guys that will play are Flowers, Carr, Albert, Dorsey, Cottam, and Charles. the old guys that we picked up don't even play any of these positions. I understand that they will lead still. But I really don't buy it. That's just a way to sell the fan base on older players. I could buy into that last year with Tony and Cottam bc he could kind of mentor the guy. But how is Zach Thomas and Vrabel going to lead Brandon Flowers? I don't think so.

If it were about leading, they would have kept Tony. He prepared to play as well as any one in the league.

Gonzalez was whining about getting traded. That's not leadership.

Raised On Riots
05-19-2009, 08:34 PM
thanks. I appreciate the effort. hopefully you are right. I really can't get excited about relying on so many 34+ players to play major roles.

and really... I hear so much about these players guiding our young guys. Really the young guys that will play are Flowers, Carr, Albert, Dorsey, Cottam, and Charles. the old guys that we picked up don't even play any of these positions. I understand that they will lead still. But I really don't buy it. That's just a way to sell the fan base on older players. I could buy into that last year with Tony and Cottam bc he could kind of mentor the guy. But how is Zach Thomas and Vrabel going to lead Brandon Flowers? I don't think so.

If it were about leading, they would have kept Tony. He prepared to play as well as any one in the league.

Those guys are stop-gaps who understand Pioli's way and here to help change the mindset of the young guys in to a winning, positive mindset.
Don't freak out about them because they will not be here more than two seasons altogether.

milkman
05-20-2009, 05:23 AM
thanks. I appreciate the effort. hopefully you are right. I really can't get excited about relying on so many 34+ players to play major roles.

and really... I hear so much about these players guiding our young guys. Really the young guys that will play are Flowers, Carr, Albert, Dorsey, Cottam, and Charles. the old guys that we picked up don't even play any of these positions. I understand that they will lead still. But I really don't buy it. That's just a way to sell the fan base on older players. I could buy into that last year with Tony and Cottam bc he could kind of mentor the guy. But how is Zach Thomas and Vrabel going to lead Brandon Flowers? I don't think so.

If it were about leading, they would have kept Tony. He prepared to play as well as any one in the league.

Holy fuck.

What a whiney dumb ass little bitch you are.

There isn't a single fucking thing these guys (Pioli and Haley) did that I like, including the trade for Cassel, which means that you have more to be happy about with these guys than I do.

And yet, here you are crying and whining.

"I want my mediocrity back" :deevee:

Fuck you, and fuck mediocrity.

I don't like anything they did, but I'm willing to wait to see how it works.

I'm going to hope these guys, who have been successful elsewhere, know wtf they are doing and can build a championship calibre team.

I can live through another suckass season if it they are building to that.

You can take your mediocrity and shove it.

FAX
05-20-2009, 06:20 AM
I guess I don't understand Mr. kcbubb's logic.

"Leadership" isn't necessarily about showing guys how to play a specific or particular position on the field. It's about how to practice, prepare, and (most importantly) win.

The Chiefs are perennial losers. We've been losers for so long that losing is part of the culture of the organization. Whether it's Peterson, Pioli, Tarzan, or Dremula The One-Eyed Dwarf Plumber, somebody has to oversee an evolution in the mental makeup, philosophy, and attitude of the franchise from top to bottom. Since neither Pioli and Haley suit up for games, they need veteran players in the locker room who, ostensibly, know what it takes to win. And, clearly, those players aren't Tony and Waters.

You don't make an atomic explosion without breaking some molecular structures, so some of the problems (see Waters) are to be expected. And, even though I don't know if Pioli can get it done or not, I do know that we are never going to see a championship unless or until change takes place, so I'm all for change. My hope is that Clark has made the right decision and we'll see a new organizational attitude evolve over the next few years. I know for sure that the attitude we had wasn't getting the job done. Meanwhile, bitching about efforts to improve the team (whatever they may be) makes little sense to me.

FAX

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 09:32 AM
Holy ****.

What a whiney dumb ass little bitch you are.

There isn't a single ****ing thing these guys (Pioli and Haley) did that I like, including the trade for Cassel, which means that you have more to be happy about with these guys than I do.

And yet, here you are crying and whining.

"I want my mediocrity back" :deevee:

**** you, and **** mediocrity.

I don't like anything they did, but I'm willing to wait to see how it works.

I'm going to hope these guys, who have been successful elsewhere, know wtf they are doing and can build a championship calibre team.

I can live through another suckass season if it they are building to that.

You can take your mediocrity and shove it.

easy there. I only take that kind of abuse from my wife...

you have more faith than I do.

If I had more faith that Haley and Pioli could turn the chiefs into the Pats or Steelers, I would be a little more cheerful about enduring the upcoming season.

I'm just second guessing hiring a GM with 3-4 philosophy because the turn around currently appears to be a few to several years out.

Mediocrity may seem pretty good if we have to endure another 3 or 4 years of losing before we even see the playoffs.

Hopefully Haley and Pioli can make me a little more optimistic.

L.A. Chieffan
05-20-2009, 09:34 AM
dead yet?

milkman
05-20-2009, 09:43 AM
easy there. I only take that kind of abuse from my wife...

you have more faith than I do.

If I had more faith that Haley and Pioli could turn the chiefs into the Pats or Steelers, I would be a little more cheerful about enduring the upcoming season.

I'm just second guessing hiring a GM with 3-4 philosophy because the turn around currently appears to be a few to several years out.

Mediocrity may seem pretty good if we have to endure another 3 or 4 years of losing before we even see the playoffs.

Hopefully Haley and Pioli can make me a little more optimistic.

Comprehend very little?

I said I didn't like the moves they made, so by extension that means I don't have faith.

The difference here is that I'm not pissing and moaning and crying like your whiney ass.

Douche Baggins
05-20-2009, 09:43 AM
Fuck you, and fuck mediocrity.


YES! DO IT! DO IT HARDER!

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 09:49 AM
I guess I don't understand Mr. kcbubb's logic.

"Leadership" isn't necessarily about showing guys how to play a specific or particular position on the field. It's about how to practice, prepare, and (most importantly) win.

The Chiefs are perennial losers. We've been losers for so long that losing is part of the culture of the organization. Whether it's Peterson, Pioli, Tarzan, or Dremula The One-Eyed Dwarf Plumber, somebody has to oversee an evolution in the mental makeup, philosophy, and attitude of the franchise from top to bottom. Since neither Pioli and Haley suit up for games, they need veteran players in the locker room who, ostensibly, know what it takes to win. And, clearly, those players aren't Tony and Waters.

You don't make an atomic explosion without breaking some molecular structures, so some of the problems (see Waters) are to be expected. And, even though I don't know if Pioli can get it done or not, I do know that we are never going to see a championship unless or until change takes place, so I'm all for change. My hope is that Clark has made the right decision and we'll see a new organizational attitude evolve over the next few years. I know for sure that the attitude we had wasn't getting the job done. Meanwhile, bitching about efforts to improve the team (whatever they may be) makes little sense to me.

FAX

I hope you are correct about leadership leading to winning in relation to this Chiefs team. I think that can be true of the QB position. And I also think that is true if the leader is a great player. But we will see if that applies to Zach Thomas, Mike Vrabel, and Bobby Engram in terms of them leading us to winning. I don't know if any of these guys are still great players. I think Tony Gonzalez is a great player and could lead us to winning.

I wouldn't say the Chiefs have been perennial losers. The have been perennially mediocre. They have not been great, but they are not mentioned with the lions, raiders and etc. We have gone to the playoffs as recently as 06. We also had a 10 win season in 05. And the Chiefs started 9-0 in 2003 and finished 13-3. If you wanted to state that the chiefs have been perennial losers in the playoffs, that would be a true statement.

I don't see Waters as part of the problem. He has been at a very minimum a very good consistent player. He's very reliable and a good run blocker. He also plays one of the weakest positions on this team. We need him at guard. I don't think he has handled this situation very well, but neither has Haley.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 10:05 AM
Comprehend very little?

I said I didn't like the moves they made, so by extension that means I don't have faith.

The difference here is that I'm not pissing and moaning and crying like your whiney ass.

I'm not crying. I'm making a point.

The Chiefs had a plan. Herm and Carl had a plan of developing and building a roster with young players to play a certain system.

The Chiefs have chosen to scrap that plan and begin a new one.

My point is that maybe the plan wasn't bad, but those executing the plan weren't the right people.

By scrapping the old plan, the Chiefs may have set themselves a few years back bc they have to retool, whereas maybe they could have continued the old plan and been competitive sooner if they would have chosen a different GM with a similar philosophy.

milkman
05-20-2009, 10:15 AM
I'm not crying. I'm making a point.

The Chiefs had a plan. Herm and Carl had a plan of developing and building a roster with young players to play a certain system.

The Chiefs have chosen to scrap that plan and begin a new one.

My point is that maybe the plan wasn't bad, but those executing the plan weren't the right people.

By scrapping the old plan, the Chiefs may have set themselves a few years back bc they have to retool, whereas maybe they could have continued the old plan and been competitive sooner if they would have chosen a different GM with a similar philosophy.

I have no problem with this post above.
In fact, I was hoping to go a different direction than Clark Hunt went.

However, the following is what got me going in this thread.

the team as a whole would have been closer the to the playoffs and mediocrity with Thigpen running the offense and drafting for defense and maybe a lineman late and playing the 4-3 defense. I said mediocrity not the super bowl. at this point, I dare say that I would be excited about mediocrity.

As I said earlier, fuck mediocrity.

I don't know how any of this is going to play out.

But I do know that it appears that Clark Hunt wants more than mediocrity, and for that reason, I'm willing to give it a chance to work.

The Bad Guy
05-20-2009, 10:22 AM
Thigpen was going to lead this team close to the playoffs?

What planet do you ****ing live on?

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 10:23 AM
I'm not crying. I'm making a point.

The Chiefs had a plan. Herm and Carl had a plan of developing and building a roster with young players to play a certain system.

The Chiefs have chosen to scrap that plan and begin a new one.

My point is that maybe the plan wasn't bad, but those executing the plan weren't the right people.

By scrapping the old plan, the Chiefs may have set themselves a few years back bc they have to retool, whereas maybe they could have continued the old plan and been competitive sooner if they would have chosen a different GM with a similar philosophy.

The plan sucked. The players sucked. The coaches sucked. The scouts sucked. The front office sucked. 2-14 sucked.

I asked you a question before and I'll ask it again, albeit re-phrased:

Given that that the personnel difference in a 4-3/3-4 switch is the front 7 and not the defensive backfield, what great front 7 talent is being thrown away to make the transition and what talent downgrades have taken place in that front 7 under the new regime?

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 10:28 AM
I have no problem with this post above.
In fact, I was hoping to go a different direction than Clark Hunt went.

However, the following is what got me going in this thread.



As I said earlier, **** mediocrity.

I don't know how any of this is going to play out.

But I do know that it appears that Clark Hunt wants more than mediocrity, and for that reason, I'm willing to give it a chance to work.

My post about mediocrity was to make a point that I am fearful that we will slip into the realm of the lions and raiders. If we have 4 or 5 straight dreadful seasons that would be terrible.

If we suck and thinking about a superbowl seems more like a pipe dream then we will be much more thankful for competing and occasionally making the playoffs. I don't want to be the lions.

Micjones
05-20-2009, 10:30 AM
I guess I don't understand Mr. kcbubb's logic.

"Leadership" isn't necessarily about showing guys how to play a specific or particular position on the field. It's about how to practice, prepare, and (most importantly) win.

The Chiefs are perennial losers. We've been losers for so long that losing is part of the culture of the organization. Whether it's Peterson, Pioli, Tarzan, or Dremula The One-Eyed Dwarf Plumber, somebody has to oversee an evolution in the mental makeup, philosophy, and attitude of the franchise from top to bottom. Since neither Pioli and Haley suit up for games, they need veteran players in the locker room who, ostensibly, know what it takes to win. And, clearly, those players aren't Tony and Waters.

You don't make an atomic explosion without breaking some molecular structures, so some of the problems (see Waters) are to be expected. And, even though I don't know if Pioli can get it done or not, I do know that we are never going to see a championship unless or until change takes place, so I'm all for change. My hope is that Clark has made the right decision and we'll see a new organizational attitude evolve over the next few years. I know for sure that the attitude we had wasn't getting the job done. Meanwhile, bitching about efforts to improve the team (whatever they may be) makes little sense to me.

FAX

Couldn't have said this better myself.

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 10:30 AM
My post about mediocrity was to make a point that I am fearful that we will slip into the realm of the lions and raiders. If we have 4 or 5 straight dreadful seasons that would be terrible.

If we suck and thinking about a superbowl seems more like a pipe dream then we will be much more thankful for competing and occasionally making the playoffs. I don't want to be the lions.

I don't know what you're worried that you'll slip into when the Raiders were an upgrade over Kansas City last year.

milkman
05-20-2009, 10:35 AM
My post about mediocrity was to make a point that I am fearful that we will slip into the realm of the lions and raiders. If we have 4 or 5 straight dreadful seasons that would be terrible.

If we suck and thinking about a superbowl seems more like a pipe dream then we will be much more thankful for competing and occasionally making the playoffs. I don't want to be the lions.

So you would rather settle for mediocrity than take the risk that is required to achieve a championship.

This is not the risk I would've chosen, but I'd rather take the risk than settle for mediocrity.

wild1
05-20-2009, 10:38 AM
i think waters' value is overestimated. he's in his 30s and he's a guard. if he is a malcontent then i dont mind seeing him go.

he'd only be worth a middle round pick anyway.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 10:41 AM
The plan sucked. The players sucked. The coaches sucked. The scouts sucked. The front office sucked. 2-14 sucked.

I asked you a question before and I'll ask it again, albeit re-phrased:

Given that that the personnel difference in a 4-3/3-4 switch is the front 7 and not the defensive backfield, what great front 7 talent is being thrown away to make the transition and what talent downgrades have taken place in that front 7 under the new regime?

You said it yourself when you said downgrade. The question should have been "how did we upgrade on one of the worst defenses in the league?".

I don't see how we have improved this season on defense. We have laid a foundation for the 3-4. We basically started over.

just for fun in the hypothetical world... say our draft with 4-3 defensive leadership went like this...

#3 Aaron Curry OLB
#34 Rey Malauguaga MLB
#67 Michael Johnson DE

and draft for o-line, QB, RB, WR in the other rounds.

in the hypothetical your starting 7 would look like:

LDE Hali
DT Tank
DT Dorsey
RDE Turk and Michael Johnson on passing downs

Sam LB Aaron Curry
MLB Rey M.
WLB Derrick Johnson


I think our defense could have made huge strides with that lineup...

Douche Baggins
05-20-2009, 10:43 AM
Turk sucks.

Hali borderline sucks.

Michael Johnson didn't impress a lot of teams.

You are Jack's lack of a fucking pass rush.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 10:47 AM
So you would rather settle for mediocrity than take the risk that is required to achieve a championship.

This is not the risk I would've chosen, but I'd rather take the risk than settle for mediocrity.

it doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing and normally it doesn't happen that way. teams are built and it takes time.

you can have a team that is mediocre that becomes a champion. of course I want to win a SB. But do we have to be terrible in the process???

And in the midst of being terrible you do realize that we don't have any guarantees that we will ever be good let alone great.

I think you typically have to be mediocre before you can be a champion.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 10:49 AM
Turk sucks.

Hali borderline sucks.

Michael Johnson didn't impress a lot of teams.

You are Jack's lack of a ****ing pass rush.

I think Michael Johnson's problem is being physical on running plays. I think he will be a great situational pass rusher.

and 2010 is a great year to add a RDE to replace both Turk and Michael Johnson if they don't pan out. it probably wouldn't have been a one year fix for the defense, but it definitely would have been an improvement.

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 10:52 AM
You said it yourself when you said downgrade. The question should have been "how did we upgrade on one of the worst defenses in the league?".

I don't see how we have improved this season on defense. We have laid a foundation for the 3-4. We basically started over.

just for fun in the hypothetical world... say our draft with 4-3 defensive leadership went like this...

#3 Aaron Curry OLB
#34 Rey Malauguaga MLB
#67 Michael Johnson DE

and draft for o-line, QB, RB, WR in the other rounds.

in the hypothetical your starting 7 would look like:

LDE Hali
DT Tank
DT Dorsey
RDE Turk and Michael Johnson on passing downs

Sam LB Aaron Curry
MLB Rey M.
WLB Derrick Johnson


I think our defense could have made huge strides with that lineup...

This team has made enormous changes in its front 7 and the "Cover who?" is dead. You're going to be seeing a likely minimum of 4 new starters in that front 7, and possibly even more than that. The team has upgraded at quarterback and has improved its offensive line. The only place on the entire team where there's been any noticeable talent drop is at tight end.

So the real problem here has nothing to do with the switch to the 3-4 or anything else of significance. The real problem is that the team didn't draft your preferred players and you're now spouting a bunch of gibberish because you think you know more than Pioli & Company. If you'd have said that at the start, this part of the thread could have been about 3 posts long and people could have moved on. For crying out loud, you're pissing and moaning because your team scrapped a plan that had brought it to 2-14. Did you actually watch that abomination of a team last year? It was playing in, arguably, the weakest division in football, and it still won 2 games.

Maybe it's me, but I figure that a guy who's won executive of the year multiple times might know a little bit about the game and might be entitled to actually put his first team on the field before the internet geeks decide they know better than he does.

Douche Baggins
05-20-2009, 10:52 AM
I think Michael Johnson's problem is being physical on running plays. I think he will be a great situational pass rusher.

He wasn't even taken in the first two rounds. He's a project.

milkman
05-20-2009, 10:53 AM
it doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing and normally it doesn't happen that way. teams are built and it takes time.

you can have a team that is mediocre that becomes a champion. of course I want to win a SB. But do we have to be terrible in the process???

And in the midst of being terrible you do realize that we don't have any guarantees that we will ever be good let alone great.

I think you typically have to be mediocre before you can be a champion.

Maybe, but that isn't what you said.

You said that you'd rather be mediocre than go through a couple more seasons of suckage while this team builds.

And your plan that includes Aaron Curry as the first pick with Tyler Thigpen as the QB reeks of mediocrity.

Hell, I think I need to go take a shower to get the stench of mediocrity off me just from reading that crap.

Jilly
05-20-2009, 10:57 AM
Maybe, but that isn't what you said.

You said that you'd rather be mediocre than go through a couple more seasons of suckage while this team builds.

And your plan that includes Aaron Curry as the first pick with Tyler Thigpen as the QB reeks of mediocrity.

Hell, I think I need to go take a shower to get the stench of mediocrity off me just from reading that crap.

Maybe you'd get farther with him if you called him a bitch? ;)

milkman
05-20-2009, 10:58 AM
Maybe you'd get farther with him if you called him a bitch? ;)

I did already.

Jilly
05-20-2009, 11:03 AM
I did already.

ROFL

milkman
05-20-2009, 11:11 AM
ROFL

At least now you know, I'm an equal opportunity hater.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 11:11 AM
This team has made enormous changes in its front 7 and the "Cover who?" is dead. You're going to be seeing a likely minimum of 4 new starters in that front 7, and possibly even more than that. The team has upgraded at quarterback and has improved its offensive line. The only place on the entire team where there's been any noticeable talent drop is at tight end.

The scheme is not just the cover 2. It's the base 4-3 defense. Have you watched Chicago play or Carolina? There are several teams that use the 4-3 well.

Who are the starters you are referring to? Tyson Jackson, Zach Thomas, Vrabel and ???? Zach and Vrabel are old. They may help in the short term, but they won't help us win a SB. And don't give me the company line of changing the tone or attitude. I'm sure they will help with some of that, but it's entirely overrated. They brought them in here to play bc they don't have anyone else to do it.



So the real problem here has nothing to do with the switch to the 3-4 or anything else of significance. The real problem is that the team didn't draft your preferred players and you're now spouting a bunch of gibberish because you think you know more than Pioli & Company. If you'd have said that at the start, this part of the thread could have been about 3 posts long and people could have moved on. For crying out loud, you're pissing and moaning because your team scrapped a plan that had brought it to 2-14. Did you actually watch that abomination of a team last year? It was playing in, arguably, the weakest division in football, and it still won 2 games.

That's a bunch of garbage. I could care less about the specific players. I just don't want to suck with no end in sight. If they could have traded the first overall for Julius Peppers and convinced him to play here, I would have been all for that. (I know he wants to play in a 3-4 and a good team and etc. but just an example to make a point.)

Our defense was closer to being good in a 4-3 alignment. It needed a few players. Now we need at least 2 or 3 more starting players even after the addition of Tyson and Magee because Vrabel and Zach will probably be done in a year or 2. That's assuming Hali can make the adjustment to OLB which a BIG assumption.


Maybe it's me, but I figure that a guy who's won executive of the year multiple times might know a little bit about the game and might be entitled to actually put his first team on the field before the internet geeks decide they know better than he does.

I just don't think the scheme fits the current players. I hope it works out and I'm going to root for them. But I will always question them if I feel like it.

As for you, you can sit there with your hands in your lap and clap occasionally when they have a press conference to tell you they did something good.

Jilly
05-20-2009, 11:12 AM
At least now you know, I'm an equal opportunity hater.

I will get you into my good graces. Mark my words.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 11:18 AM
Maybe, but that isn't what you said.

You said that you'd rather be mediocre than go through a couple more seasons of suckage while this team builds.

And your plan that includes Aaron Curry as the first pick with Tyler Thigpen as the QB reeks of mediocrity.

Hell, I think I need to go take a shower to get the stench of mediocrity off me just from reading that crap.

man you are extremely afraid carl petersonitus.... I didn't mean forever with mediocrity.... i meant the chiefs may be so bad that we miss it.

and you can improve from mediocre to winning the SB more easily than you can from terrible.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 11:21 AM
I just think this team could be a lot better right now if we had done things differently.

I'm glad some of you are content with Hunt, Pioli and Haley right now.

Douche Baggins
05-20-2009, 11:25 AM
I just think this team could be a lot better right now if we had done things differently.

I'm glad some of you are content with Hunt, Pioli and Haley right now.

You'd be content with Hali and McBride as starters?

:shake:

Raised On Riots
05-20-2009, 11:26 AM
YES! DO IT! DO IT HARDER!

ROFL

quote=kcbubb it doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing and normally it doesn't happen that way. teams are built and it takes time.

you can have a team that is mediocre that becomes a champion. of course I want to win a SB. But do we have to be terrible in the process??? :spock:


And in the midst of being terrible you do realize that we don't have any guarantees that we will ever be good let alone great.

I think you typically have to be mediocre before you can be a champion.
:spock:


Maybe, but that isn't what you said.

You said that you'd rather be mediocre than go through a couple more seasons of suckage while this team builds.

And your plan that includes Aaron Curry as the first pick with Tyler Thigpen as the QB reeks of mediocrity.

Hell, I think I need to go take a shower to get the stench of mediocrity off me just from reading that crap.

LMAO

Douche Baggins
05-20-2009, 11:26 AM
The pats went from 5-11 to Super Bowl champions.

No mediocrity pitstop.

Now fuck off!

Raised On Riots
05-20-2009, 11:33 AM
The pats went from 5-11 to Super Bowl champions.

No mediocrity pitstop.

Now fuck off!

ROFLROFLROFL

CRUX ACHIEVED.

REP!

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 11:33 AM
You'd be content with Hali and McBride as starters?

:shake:

Well.. What do we have now???? Hali and Vrabel as our rushers...

Hali averages about 0.5 sacks a game when he starts on the left side. It obviously helps to have a dominant RDE.

But like I said if Turk and Michael Johnson were to fail in my hypothetical world, the 2010 draft is full of good RDEs that they could draft to take their spot.

The defense would be much more complete than it is now. Plus it would even have some decent depth. What do we have now???

Say something like last year happens and 3 or defensive starters get hurt which is likely to happen with these older players. Who's going to step in??? You do know that Zach has had a few concussions.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 11:35 AM
The pats went from 5-11 to Super Bowl champions.

No mediocrity pitstop.

Now **** off!

and their story is pretty typical... that and finding hall of fame QBs in the 6th round. let's follow their path and select our next starting QB in the 6th round.

JASONSAUTO
05-20-2009, 11:42 AM
ROFLROFLROFL

CRUX ACHIEVED.

REP!

QEUSTION: what was their record the next year?

Raised On Riots
05-20-2009, 11:50 AM
QEUSTION: what was their record the next year?

11-5

JASONSAUTO
05-20-2009, 12:51 PM
11-5

WRONG IN 2002 they were 9-7, mediocre if you ask me. 2001 11-5 Sb champs 2002 9-7 mediocre.

Raised On Riots
05-20-2009, 12:56 PM
WRONG IN 2002 they were 9-7, mediocre if you ask me. 2001 11-5 Sb champs 2002 9-7 mediocre.


Original Post:

Originally Posted by Claythan http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=5779766#post5779766)
The pats went from 5-11 to Super Bowl champions.


Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=5779811#post5779811)
QEUSTION: what was their record the next year?




11-5 was their record for their FIRST Super Bowl season.

The progression is, one year 5-11,
Super Bowl year 11-5.

Be more specific in your questioning next time please. :spock:

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 01:11 PM
The scheme is not just the cover 2. It's the base 4-3 defense. Have you watched Chicago play or Carolina? There are several teams that use the 4-3 well.

No shit it's not just the cover 2. I pointed that out when I asked you about the specific talent lost in the front 7 for the 4-3/3-4 transition.

Who are the starters you are referring to? Tyson Jackson, Zach Thomas, Vrabel and ???? Zach and Vrabel are old. They may help in the short term, but they won't help us win a SB. And don't give me the company line of changing the tone or attitude. I'm sure they will help with some of that, but it's entirely overrated. They brought them in here to play bc they don't have anyone else to do it.

Zach and Vrabel are old? Who gives a shit? They are upgrades over the swill that was playing linebacker in Kansas City last season. You people really need to pull your heads out of your asses about this team you root for. It might have been the least talented team in the league. It's going to take time to undue the damage that has been done to this franchise. USC and Florida may have had more talent than that Chiefs squad did, and I'm not joking.

That's a bunch of garbage. I could care less about the specific players. I just don't want to suck with no end in sight. If they could have traded the first overall for Julius Peppers and convinced him to play here, I would have been all for that. (I know he wants to play in a 3-4 and a good team and etc. but just an example to make a point.)

Obviously, this is not the truth. Trading the first is still an attempt to choose your players over his. You're not the GM.

Our defense was closer to being good in a 4-3 alignment. It needed a few players. Now we need at least 2 or 3 more starting players even after the addition of Tyson and Magee because Vrabel and Zach will probably be done in a year or 2. That's assuming Hali can make the adjustment to OLB which a BIG assumption.

"Your" defense sucked ass and wasn't anywhere near being good in any alignment that didn't involve the alignment of the stars so magical spells could improve the play of some very pathetic players. That defense had fallen from #11 to #14 to #29 over the span of three seasons.

I just don't think the scheme fits the current players. I hope it works out and I'm going to root for them. But I will always question them if I feel like it.

You're not questioning them. You're whining like a bitch about something you don't have any knowledge of, because you haven't seen the current players in the 3-4 scheme and, so, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

As for you, you can sit there with your hands in your lap and clap occasionally when they have a press conference to tell you they did something good.

I'm not a Chiefs fan, slick. I've got no dog in this hunt. I'm following the Chiefs and Broncos because I'm interested to see how the Belichick machine will fare without the main cog. I initially came here to offer some observations about Pioli and the Patriots system for people who had questions, and I just decided to stick around.

Now, I'll ask you, yet again, what talent has been lost in the transition from the 4-3 to the 3-4? You keep arguing without answering simple questions. I'll even re-phrase the question once again:

What players who were talented enough to be quality starters a contending Chiefs team if this team stayed in the 4-3 will now be useless because of the transition to the 3-4?

JASONSAUTO
05-20-2009, 01:49 PM
Original Post:





11-5 was their record for their FIRST Super Bowl season.

The progression is, one year 5-11,
Super Bowl year 11-5.

Be more specific in your questioning next time please. :spock:

TO anyone with half a brain it would have been EASY to figure out what was meant. the question posed after someone said they went from 5-11 to the SB was "what was their record the next year" the SB year was already discussed(SB Champs record doesnt matter). the ACTUAL progression is 5-11, 11-5, 9-7. point being: there WAS some mediocrity mixed in there, so your cock buddy didnt own anyone or anything(kinda like in real life) if you are going to hug someone's nuts you better go back to mecca or beg hamas back.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 01:54 PM
Now, I'll ask you, yet again, what talent has been lost in the transition from the 4-3 to the 3-4? You keep arguing without answering simple questions. I'll even re-phrase the question once again:


You must not read so well. I answered this. When you have a defense ranked almost last, you need to improve it. Your asking the wrong question. The chiefs defense couldn't be downgraded much farther. They were pretty close to the bottom.


What players who were talented enough to be quality starters a contending Chiefs team if this team stayed in the 4-3 will now be useless because of the transition to the 3-4?

I don't think many of them will be useless, but the obvious questions marks are Hali, Turk, and Brian Johnson. I think Dorsey will do fine as an undertackle if they play him that way. I never contended that the players would be useless.

I said the chiefs should have stuck to their original plan and just changed leadership. Because they haven't really done anything this off season to improve their defense for a SB run. If they would have stayed in the 4-3, would they have drafted Tyson Jackson and Magee???? They could have made some progress in this draft with their defense.

The Chiefs defense was ranked 13th in 2007 with a terrible offense. The offense was 31st in 2007.

The 2008 defense was pretty much the same personnel wise except for the loss of Jared Allen and the improvement of the corners in Flowers and Carr.

Why do so many people forget about the 2007 defense??? It was a good defense and could have been better with a decent offense. The quickest way back to a good defense would be to find a replacement for Jared Allen and maybe that defense would look like the 2007 defense.

Our defensive players are not as bad as you think. Herm and Carl really underestimated how big an impact the loss of Jared Allen would hurt the defense. It dropped them them from 13th in 2007 to 31st in 2008. What changed??? According to you the whole defensive was terrible. All the players suck. They are worse than a college squad???? How were they ranked 13th in 2007 then if all the players suck???

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 02:08 PM
You must not read so well. I answered this. When you have a defense ranked almost last, you need to improve it. Your asking the wrong question. The chiefs defense couldn't be downgraded much farther. They were pretty close to the bottom.

I read fine. You never answered the question I asked and, instead, dodged it with generalizations.

I don't think many of them will be useless, but the obvious questions marks are Hali, Turk, and Brian Johnson. I think Dorsey will do fine as an undertackle if they play him that way. I never contended that the players would be useless.

I said the chiefs should have stuck to their original plan and just changed leadership. Because they haven't really done anything this off season to improve their defense for a SB run. If they would have stayed in the 4-3, would they have drafted Tyson Jackson and Magee???? They could have made some progress in this draft with their defense.

And they could have screwed it up. Again, you're doing nothing but substituting your choice of players for Pioli's. As a matter of fact, you're making ridiculous assertions: "they haven't really done anything this off season to improve their defense for a SB run". You have ZERO knowledge of whether or not that is a true statement.

Also, are you claiming that Hali, Turk and Johnson would be quality starters for a contending team as long as that team was using the 4-3, but not in a 3-4? I want to make sure I understood that part.

The Chiefs defense was ranked 13th in 2007 with a terrible offense. The offense was 31st in 2007.

The 2008 defense was pretty much the same personnel wise except for the loss of Jared Allen and the improvement of the corners in Flowers and Carr.

Napoleon Harris, Glenn Dorsey... do those names ring a bell? Also, while some players improved, others regressed.

Why do so many people forget about the 2007 defense??? It was a good defense and could have been better with a decent offense. The quickest way back to a good defense would be to find a replacement for Jared Allen and maybe that defense would look like the 2007 defense.

No, this is your THEORY. It's almost certainly wrong. Pioli and Haley certainly don't agree with you.

Our defensive players are not as bad as you think. Herm and Carl really underestimated how big an impact the loss of Jared Allen would hurt the defense. It dropped them them from 13th in 2007 to 31st in 2008. What changed??? According to you the whole defensive was terrible. All the players suck. They are worse than a college squad???? How were they ranked 13th in 2007 then if all the players suck???

"Your" defensive players are every bit as bad as I think. It's a front 7 that was bad enough that the new staff has already brought in 4 replacements for 7 spots.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 02:30 PM
Napoleon Harris, Glenn Dorsey... do those names ring a bell? Also, while some players improved, others regressed.

"Your" defensive players are every bit as bad as I think. It's a front 7 that was bad enough that the new staff has already brought in 4 replacements for 7 spots.

please explain why they had success in 2007 then???

and I wouldn't count Napoleon Harris as huge difference 2007 to 2008 because Pat Thomas beat him out. and Dorsey didn't have a season that was much different than Ron Edwards or Boone. Jared Allen and his 15.5 sacks were the difference. He also helped Hali and the rest of the defense get sacks. They had 37.5 sacks in 2007. The chiefs had 10 sacks in 2008.


Please explain how the Chiefs had a good defense in 2007 and why it dropped off so badly in 2008??? And how many of these Chiefs games did you watch??? Are you a pats fan???


He's an article from Bob Gretz 5-12-08

The strength of the Chiefs team right now is its defense. That doesn’t mean there aren’t questions that must be answered in the next four months with the off-season program and training camp.

Here they are.

Question #1: who will play the other cornerback, opposite Pat Surtain and who will be the nickel back?

First, don’t believe that Surtain has his spot in the defense locked up. That’s simply not the case. It’s just that the odds of getting enough production in the coming months from all the new faces so that Surtain can also be replaced are pretty long.

Second-round choice Brandon Flowers is likely be the first man in line to replace Ty Law. The returning veterans who factor in at cornerback are Tyron Brackenridge, Rashard Barksdale and Dimitri Patterson. Joining them are two more rookies Brandon Carr, the team’s fifth-round pick, and college free agent Maurice Leggett. More than likely they will add another cornerback at some point.

Brackenridge got the most defensive playing time last year, appearing in 13 games before his season ended in December with a knee injury. Joining the team as a college free agent, he produced more than anybody would have believed. Barksdale was claimed off waivers in the first week of the season and ended up playing six games, all of that on the special teams. Patterson played in 13 games for the Chiefs last year, with six on defense. His contributions came in the kicking game.

Don’t count out Carr. While he played Division 1-AA football at Grand Valley State, he comes in ahead of the other rookies because of his understanding of the Cover 2 scheme. His coaching staff at Grand Valley actually was tutored in the defense several years ago by the coaching staff at Tampa Bay, where this version of the Cover 2 originated with Tony Dungy-Herman Edwards-Monte Kiffin.

There’s one other candidate for the nickel back job and that’s third-round pick DaJuan Morgan. He’s listed at safety, but Edwards talked during the Draft that Morgan could move down into the slot and cover receivers in the nickel.

Question #2: how will the Chiefs replace the 15.5 sacks that Jared Allen contributed last season?

The move of Tamba Hali to the right defensive end gives them a shot to equal that production. Despite the fact he didn’t produce big numbers last year on the pass rush, Hali had very good season getting after the passer. His 7.5 sacks and 12 pressures were second on the team behind Allen. Remember in the 2006 season, Hali led the team in sacks with eight, or a half-sack more than Allen.

Overall, the Chiefs defense had 37 sacks last year. For them to improve those numbers, they must get more action on the inside. Last year, the interior linemen produced just five sacks. Combined Ron Edwards-Alfonso Boone-Turk McBride had 16 pressures. Rookie Tank Tyler did not have a sack and was not credited with a pressure. That must change in 2008, plus the Chiefs expect a lot more activity in the middle of the defense with the addition of first-round choice Glenn Dorsey.

Question #3: how will the rotation go on the defensive line?

Figure Hali, Boone and McBride as the rotation at defensive end. Then it will be Dorsey, Tyler and Edwards on the inside.

That leaves at least one spot at tackle and one at end that will be available, as the team figures to carry eight defensive linemen on the final roster. The best competition could come at end, where seventh-round choice Brian Johnston brings a lot of the same qualities to the team that Jared Allen did four years ago. Johnston finished his career at Gardner Webb with 21 sacks. Also college free agent Johnny Dingle out of West Virginia was one of the league’s most sought after non-drafted players. He had 14.5 career sacks with the Mountaineers.

Question #4: how will the Chiefs get improved play at linebacker?

So much of this Chiefs defensive scheme revolves around the linebackers and there was not the production there in 2007 that was expected by the coaching staff. Some of that was mental, as newcomers Napoleon Harris and Donnie Edwards had some troubles adjusting to the scheme. That should not be a problem this coming season. If it is, this year’s newcomer Demarrio Williams could easily supplant either one of those veterans.

Derrick Johnson is on the cusp of becoming one of the NFL’s most complete linebackers. There were games during the ‘07 season where he was sensational. There was the Chicago game when he had seven tackles and two sacks. The Minnesota game had 10 tackles and the two games against San Diego had a combined 10 tackles, two sacks, an interception and two forced fumbles. He’s capable of that type of production. Then, there were games against Cincinnati (two tackles) and at Denver (two tackles.)

The Chiefs defense needs D.J. to be a big playmaker for 16 consecutive Sundays.

Raised On Riots
05-20-2009, 02:39 PM
TO anyone with half a brain it would have been EASY to figure out what was meant. the question posed after someone said they went from 5-11 to the SB was "what was their record the next year" the SB year was already discussed(SB Champs record doesnt matter). the ACTUAL progression is 5-11, 11-5, 9-7. point being: there WAS some mediocrity mixed in there, so your cock buddy didnt own anyone or anything(kinda like in real life) if you are going to hug someone's nuts you better go back to mecca or beg hamas back.

If you can't outline your fucking question correctly, then DON'T FUCKING POST TO ME.

Seriously; go fuck yourself.

FAX
05-20-2009, 03:07 PM
Did Mr. kcnubb just attempt to support his argument through the use of a Bob Gretz article?

My God in Heaven.

FAX

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 03:16 PM
Did Mr. kcnubb just attempt to support his argument through the use of a Bob Gretz article?

My God in Heaven.

FAX

haha... no. just referenced the article for stats and players on the team at the time.

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 03:44 PM
please explain why they had success in 2007 then???

and I wouldn't count Napoleon Harris as huge difference 2007 to 2008 because Pat Thomas beat him out. and Dorsey didn't have a season that was much different than Ron Edwards or Boone. Jared Allen and his 15.5 sacks were the difference. He also helped Hali and the rest of the defense get sacks. They had 37.5 sacks in 2007. The chiefs had 10 sacks in 2008.


Please explain how the Chiefs had a good defense in 2007 and why it dropped off so badly in 2008??? And how many of these Chiefs games did you watch??? Are you a pats fan???


He's an article from Bob Gretz 5-12-08

The strength of the Chiefs team right now is its defense. That doesnít mean there arenít questions that must be answered in the next four months with the off-season program and training camp.

Here they are.

Question #1: who will play the other cornerback, opposite Pat Surtain and who will be the nickel back?

First, donít believe that Surtain has his spot in the defense locked up. Thatís simply not the case. Itís just that the odds of getting enough production in the coming months from all the new faces so that Surtain can also be replaced are pretty long.

Second-round choice Brandon Flowers is likely be the first man in line to replace Ty Law. The returning veterans who factor in at cornerback are Tyron Brackenridge, Rashard Barksdale and Dimitri Patterson. Joining them are two more rookies Brandon Carr, the teamís fifth-round pick, and college free agent Maurice Leggett. More than likely they will add another cornerback at some point.

Brackenridge got the most defensive playing time last year, appearing in 13 games before his season ended in December with a knee injury. Joining the team as a college free agent, he produced more than anybody would have believed. Barksdale was claimed off waivers in the first week of the season and ended up playing six games, all of that on the special teams. Patterson played in 13 games for the Chiefs last year, with six on defense. His contributions came in the kicking game.

Donít count out Carr. While he played Division 1-AA football at Grand Valley State, he comes in ahead of the other rookies because of his understanding of the Cover 2 scheme. His coaching staff at Grand Valley actually was tutored in the defense several years ago by the coaching staff at Tampa Bay, where this version of the Cover 2 originated with Tony Dungy-Herman Edwards-Monte Kiffin.

Thereís one other candidate for the nickel back job and thatís third-round pick DaJuan Morgan. Heís listed at safety, but Edwards talked during the Draft that Morgan could move down into the slot and cover receivers in the nickel.

Question #2: how will the Chiefs replace the 15.5 sacks that Jared Allen contributed last season?

The move of Tamba Hali to the right defensive end gives them a shot to equal that production. Despite the fact he didnít produce big numbers last year on the pass rush, Hali had very good season getting after the passer. His 7.5 sacks and 12 pressures were second on the team behind Allen. Remember in the 2006 season, Hali led the team in sacks with eight, or a half-sack more than Allen.

Overall, the Chiefs defense had 37 sacks last year. For them to improve those numbers, they must get more action on the inside. Last year, the interior linemen produced just five sacks. Combined Ron Edwards-Alfonso Boone-Turk McBride had 16 pressures. Rookie Tank Tyler did not have a sack and was not credited with a pressure. That must change in 2008, plus the Chiefs expect a lot more activity in the middle of the defense with the addition of first-round choice Glenn Dorsey.

Question #3: how will the rotation go on the defensive line?

Figure Hali, Boone and McBride as the rotation at defensive end. Then it will be Dorsey, Tyler and Edwards on the inside.

That leaves at least one spot at tackle and one at end that will be available, as the team figures to carry eight defensive linemen on the final roster. The best competition could come at end, where seventh-round choice Brian Johnston brings a lot of the same qualities to the team that Jared Allen did four years ago. Johnston finished his career at Gardner Webb with 21 sacks. Also college free agent Johnny Dingle out of West Virginia was one of the leagueís most sought after non-drafted players. He had 14.5 career sacks with the Mountaineers.

Question #4: how will the Chiefs get improved play at linebacker?

So much of this Chiefs defensive scheme revolves around the linebackers and there was not the production there in 2007 that was expected by the coaching staff. Some of that was mental, as newcomers Napoleon Harris and Donnie Edwards had some troubles adjusting to the scheme. That should not be a problem this coming season. If it is, this yearís newcomer Demarrio Williams could easily supplant either one of those veterans.

Derrick Johnson is on the cusp of becoming one of the NFLís most complete linebackers. There were games during the Ď07 season where he was sensational. There was the Chicago game when he had seven tackles and two sacks. The Minnesota game had 10 tackles and the two games against San Diego had a combined 10 tackles, two sacks, an interception and two forced fumbles. Heís capable of that type of production. Then, there were games against Cincinnati (two tackles) and at Denver (two tackles.)

The Chiefs defense needs D.J. to be a big playmaker for 16 consecutive Sundays.

You've got to be kidding me with this.

Raised On Riots
05-20-2009, 03:47 PM
You've got to be kidding me with this.

No. Squeaking in to the playoffs by a cunt-hair is what defines "success" amongst most of the fan base these days.

Sad isn't it?

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 04:12 PM
You've got to be kidding me with this.

when I asked you why the Chiefs defense regressed from their ranking of 13th in the league in 2007 to 31st in the league in 2008, you said the following:


Napoleon Harris, Glenn Dorsey... do those names ring a bell? Also, while some players improved, others regressed.

You have got to be kidding me with that.

Anyone who doesn't know that the loss of Jared Allen caused the Chiefs defense to suck in 2008 obviously doesn't know anything. Go follow your team. The only reason you are here is because you love Pioli.

You don't care about the Chiefs and it's obvious that you don't know anything about them either.

Napoleon Harris..... you got to be kidding me... ROFL

JASONSAUTO
05-20-2009, 06:24 PM
If you can't outline your fucking question correctly, then DON'T FUCKING POST TO ME.

Seriously; go fuck yourself.


ROFL funny "dont post to you"???thats great and the "seriously; go fuck yourself" you stole from OTWP just like usual you bring nothing, just a parrot. read through the posts again, it's obvious. when he says they went from 5-11 to SB champs then you declare pwnage. i ask what their record was the NEXT year. what didnt you get?



oh and i got more than one positive rep for my original post, others knew EXACTLY what was being asked.

Raised On Riots
05-20-2009, 06:55 PM
ROFL funny "dont post to you"???thats great and the "seriously; go fuck yourself" you stole from OTWP just like usual you bring nothing, just a parrot. read through the posts again, it's obvious. when he says they went from 5-11 to SB champs then you declare pwnage. i ask what their record was the NEXT year. what didnt you get?



oh and i got more than one positive rep for my original post, others knew EXACTLY what was being asked.

Okay, this then:

What EXACTLY are you trying to get at? We've got a TF pining for mediocrity, and Clay points out that the Pats went from a 5 win season to a Super Bowl victory. His point was 100% valid within the context of the debate!

From shit to Champions.
From shit to Champions.
From shit to Champions.
From shit to Champions.

Is this sinking the fuck in to your brain yet?!?!?

In the context of this conversation, the Pats season following their SB win means JACK SHIT!

I'm gonna' outline this one more time so put your grease gun down, zip up your pants, and LISTEN!

"You have to be mediocre before you can be great".

Not necessarily. The Pats went from 5 wins in 2000, to a Super Bowl victory the next season.

5 wins = SHIT.

Super Bowl win the next season = Bypass of mediocrity! Yay!

Did they make the playoffs the next year? No. They had a mediocre season.
But here's the crux and point Sauto:

They slipped AFTER they went from Zero to Hero!

Get it? Got it? GOOD.

orange
05-20-2009, 06:59 PM
You're missing another obvious point - that 2001 Patriots team was the very epitome of the Carl Peterson dream - a mediocre-good team just barely making the playoffs and then anything can happen.

It took them two more years of growth to decisively leave mediocre behind.

2001 wasn't mediocrity bypassed - it was mediocrity rewarded.

Raised On Riots
05-20-2009, 07:13 PM
You're missing another obvious point - that 2001 Patriots team was the very epitome of the Carl Peterson dream - a mediocre-good team just barely making the playoffs and then anything can happen.

It took them two more years of growth to decisively leave mediocre behind.

2001 wasn't mediocrity bypassed - it was mediocrity rewarded.

Yes, because winning a Super Bowl is just a hop, skip, and a leisurely fucking stroll to the 7-11 for a pack of smokes, right?

Unbelievable.:rolleyes:

orange
05-20-2009, 07:28 PM
Yes, because winning a Super Bowl is just a hop, skip, and a leisurely ****ing stroll to the 7-11 for a pack of smokes, right?

Unbelievable.:rolleyes:


Exactly. You got it.

That was the root of the whole ChiefsPlanet "I hate Carl" monologue for the last several years - that he thought just getting into the playoffs gave a team the chance to win it all.

ChiefsPlaneteers - "13-3 and early out isn't good enough, we need to dominate."

Well, that 2001 Patriots team was 11-5 - two games short of those CP 13-3 Chiefs teams and tied with a HERM &^%$ing EDWARDS team, for crying out loud. That is not domination.

orange
05-20-2009, 07:29 PM
Exactly. You got it.

That was the root of the whole ChiefsPlanet "I hate Carl" monologue for the last several years - that he thought just getting into the playoffs gave a team the chance to win it all.

ChiefsPlaneteers - "13-3 and early out isn't good enough, we need to dominate."

Well, that 2001 Patriots team was 11-5 - two games short of those CP 13-3 Chiefs teams and tied with a HERM &^%$ing EDWARDS team, for crying out loud. That is not domination.


Oh, but they won the Super Bowl anyway.

Raised On Riots
05-20-2009, 07:34 PM
Oh, but they won the Super Bowl anyway.


BINGO. I never said SHIT about "domination". I said they won the Super Bowl after winning only five games in the season prior.

Why do we play the game? What is the purpose of playing the game?

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 08:07 PM
when I asked you why the Chiefs defense regressed from their ranking of 13th in the league in 2007 to 31st in the league in 2008, you said the following:



You have got to be kidding me with that.

Anyone who doesn't know that the loss of Jared Allen caused the Chiefs defense to suck in 2008 obviously doesn't know anything. Go follow your team. The only reason you are here is because you love Pioli.

You don't care about the Chiefs and it's obvious that you don't know anything about them either.

Napoleon Harris..... you got to be kidding me... ROFL

Now you're either not bothering to read, or you're just flat out lying. Here's the quote that I responded to with the "Napoleon Harris, Glenn Dorsey" comment:

The Chiefs defense was ranked 13th in 2007 with a terrible offense. The offense was 31st in 2007.

The 2008 defense was pretty much the same personnel wise except for the loss of Jared Allen and the improvement of the corners in Flowers and Carr.

It's right there in post #212. You were making the claim that the personnel was essentially the same and I was pointing out some personnel changes. This nonsense that the defense was essentially the same is just that, nonsense.

In 2007, Law and Surtain were the starting corners. In 2008, Law wasn't on the team and Surtain only started in 2 of the 8 games he played in.

In 2007, Napoleon Harris was the starting MLB. In 2008, he was in Minnesota.

In 2007, the starting DTs were Ron Edwards and Alphonso Boone. In 2008, the starting tackles were Tyler and Dorsey.

In 2007, Donnie Edwards started all 16 games at linebacker. In 2008, he only played in 7 games, and only started 4.

Then there's the Allen switch. So, despite your claims, there wasn't just a minor tweak to the defense, there were 6 new starters on the offense, and 7 if you consider Edwards removed from the starting lineup. Either way, that's more than half the starters replaced in one season. If there's one of us who doesn't know anything about the Chiefs, that would seem to be you.

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 08:08 PM
You're missing another obvious point - that 2001 Patriots team was the very epitome of the Carl Peterson dream - a mediocre-good team just barely making the playoffs and then anything can happen.

It took them two more years of growth to decisively leave mediocre behind.

2001 wasn't mediocrity bypassed - it was mediocrity rewarded.

You might want to take another look at 2001. That Patriots team was actually a very good team.

Raised On Riots
05-20-2009, 08:44 PM
You might want to take another look at 2001. That Patriots team was actually a very good team.

Orange has some weird ideas about professional football.

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 08:52 PM
Orange has some weird ideas about professional football.

Well, to be fair to him, the media did play it up that way. If you bought into the media hype, you'd never suspect that the Patriots were the #6 scoring offense AND #6 scoring defense, or that they'd gone 7-1 in the last half of the season.

orange
05-20-2009, 08:54 PM
There were six teams with a better record. And two more tied with them.

They were sixth in point differential, sixth in offense, sixth in defense - pretty much sixth across the board.

They were 5-5 at one point then got hot and won their division on a tie-breaker.

They still needed to be handed a win in the playoffs - tucked in, if you will.

One of their two video-enhanced last-second three-point playoff wins.

Oh yeah, they dominated alright.

orange
05-20-2009, 08:58 PM
You might want to take another look at 2001. That Patriots team was actually a very good team.

Well, to be fair to him, the media did play it up that way. If you bought into the media hype, you'd never suspect that the Patriots were the #6 scoring offense AND #6 scoring defense, or that they'd gone 7-1 in the last half of the season.

You say that like it's special.

Sixth means FIVE TEAMS were better.

Besides which, you have to learn the ChiefsPlanet lingo. 11-5 is the sort of mediocrity you can expect from Carl Peterson teams.

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 09:13 PM
You say that like it's special.

Sixth means FIVE TEAMS were better.

Besides which, you have to learn the ChiefsPlanet lingo. 11-5 is the sort of mediocrity you can expect from Carl Peterson teams.

They started off the season at 1-3, as Bledsoe struggled then got drilled and Brady learned the ropes. They went 10-2 the rest of the way. As for that "5 teams were better" stuff, I'll just leave it at that and point out that this year's Steelers were 20th on offense, last year's Giants were 14th on Offense and 17th on defense, the 2006 Colts were 23rd on defense and the 2005 Steelers were 9th on Offense and 3rd on defense. You have to go back to the 2004 Patriots (4th and 2nd) to find a team better than that 6/6 split, the 2003 Patriots split those 12th and 1st, and the 2002 Tampa team was 18th on offense.

In other words, there's only been 1 Super Bowl winner this decade with a better O/D ranking than that 2001 Patriots team, and that was the 2004 Patriots team. To find a non-Patriots team that was better (again we're talking Super Bowl WINNERS here, not just Super Bowl participants), you have to go back to the 1999 Rams, because the Ravens were 1st in defense but 14th in offense.

That's actually pretty special.

orange
05-20-2009, 09:29 PM
In other words, there's only been 1 Super Bowl winner this decade with a better O/D ranking than that 2001 Patriots team, and that was the 2004 Patriots team. To find a non-Patriots team that was better (again we're talking Super Bowl WINNERS here, not just Super Bowl participants), you have to go back to the 1999 Rams, because the Ravens were 1st in defense but 14th in offense.


That says more about the decade than anything else. There were plenty of much more dominant SB winners in the '90s for example - you mentioned the Rams, also the Packers, Broncos, Cowboys come to mind immediately. You might want to blame it on Free Agency/Salary Cap but those were already in effect in the '90s. I think it's just the downswing of the pendulum.

orange
05-20-2009, 09:33 PM
And again, I don't mean to be overly critical of those Patriots. They WERE Super Bowl Champions. It's just that they embodied the idea often expressed by Carl Peterson (and reviled on this Forum) that the goal of the regular season is to make the playoffs - once there, it's a clean slate and you've got as good a chance as anyone.

Raised On Riots
05-20-2009, 09:36 PM
And again, I don't mean to be overly critical of those Patriots. They WERE Super Bowl Champions. It's just that they embodied the idea often expressed by Carl Peterson (and reviled on this Forum) that the goal of the regular season is to make the playoffs - once there, it's a clean slate and you've got as good a chance as anyone.

Okay, but obviously they WERE building towards something greater, and doing it in a clearly laid-out and pragmatic way.

And THAT, is NOT Carl Peterson.

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 10:00 PM
That says more about the decade than anything else. There were plenty of much more dominant SB winners in the '90s for example - you mentioned the Rams, also the Packers, Broncos, Cowboys come to mind immediately. You might want to blame it on Free Agency/Salary Cap but those were already in effect in the '90s. I think it's just the downswing of the pendulum.

I don't blame it on anything. The Rams were the #1 offense in the league and were 7th in defense. The 80's and this decade both had quite a few teams with lesser O/D splits than the 2001 Patriots. I never claimed that the 2001 team was the greatest ever or anything like that. It's just that the "mediocrity" claim you made was wrong. Your claim:

a mediocre-good team just barely making the playoffs and then anything can happen.

Was not that it was a middle of the pack type Super Bowl winner, but that it was just a mediocre-good team. It was definitely better than that, and Mike Martz knew it after the first meeting between the two teams:

"I told the guys that night they beat a Super Bowl-caliber team," Martz said. "They were certainly the most physical team we played."

"(Martz) was right," Rams receiver Isaac Bruce said. "They played us well and went on to win eight straight after that. He definitely knew what he was talking about."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/previews/2002/02/03/patriots_rams/

Furthermore, the Patriots were the #2 seed in the AFC, so I don't see how that falls under "just barely making the playoffs".

orange
05-20-2009, 10:46 PM
I don't blame it on anything. The Rams were the #1 offense in the league and were 7th in defense. The 80's and this decade both had quite a few teams with lesser O/D splits than the 2001 Patriots. I never claimed that the 2001 team was the greatest ever or anything like that. It's just that the "mediocrity" claim you made was wrong.

...

Furthermore, the Patriots were the #2 seed in the AFC, so I don't see how that falls under "just barely making the playoffs".

The last time I checked, playoff berths were determined by WINS/LOSSES not stats. Only three teams ever won the Super Bowl with a lower winning percentage than those Patriots - and two others tied them in the regular season but won an extra playoff game - the extra playoff game the Patriots would have had to play if not for (1) a tie-breaker and (2) a weak year for the AFC.

Oh, and under "just barely making the playoffs" - what was the record of this year's NON-PLAYOFF Patriots team again? I forget.

But enough. You're right - the Pats are the most underrated team ever.

Dylan
05-21-2009, 01:14 AM
They started off the season at 1-3, as Bledsoe struggled then got drilled and Brady learned the ropes. They went 10-2 the rest of the way. As for that "5 teams were better" stuff, I'll just leave it at that and point out that this year's Steelers were 20th on offense, last year's Giants were 14th on Offense and 17th on defense, the 2006 Colts were 23rd on defense and the 2005 Steelers were 9th on Offense and 3rd on defense. You have to go back to the 2004 Patriots (4th and 2nd) to find a team better than that 6/6 split, the 2003 Patriots split those 12th and 1st, and the 2002 Tampa team was 18th on offense.

In other words, there's only been 1 Super Bowl winner this decade with a better O/D ranking than that 2001 Patriots team, and that was the 2004 Patriots team. To find a non-Patriots team that was better (again we're talking Super Bowl WINNERS here, not just Super Bowl participants), you have to go back to the 1999 Rams, because the Ravens were 1st in defense but 14th in offense.

That's actually pretty special.

Sorry. i'm trying to understand your post.

If you're talking about 2001. The Giants were 9th in Offense and 14th in Defense.

Stats really don't mean much once you make the playoffs -- Winning the SB counts. j/m/o

2008 the Steelers had a No #1 defense --Yet, the Giants beat them... what did it mean? -- nothing -- Pittsburgh won the Super Bowl


Example of stats: Giants and Patriots (had Giants stats)

Patriots won 3 SBs. Proves teams do not have to be #1 to win it all

Giants 2001 Patriots 2001
Offense 9th 19th
Defense 14th 24th

Giants 2002 Patriots
Offense 6th 21st
Defense 9th 23rd

Giants 2003 Patriots 2003
Offense 20th 17th
Defense 22nd 7th

Giants 2004 Patriots 2004
Defense 13 9th
Offense 23rd 7th

Giants 2005 Patriots 2005
Offense 4th 7th
Defense 24th 26th

Giants 2006 Patriots 2006
Offense 14th 11th
Defense 25th 6th

Giants 2007 Patriots
Offense 16th 1st
Defense 7th 4th

Giants 2008 Patriots 2008
Offense 7th 5th
Defense 5th 10th


When the Giants played the Cardinals, Penderghast ran a variety of defensive schemes. AZ ran 4-3, 4-6, & 5-2, more than a 3-4. Same variety in the Super Bowl.

I also believe, Pioli will add depth to the team during the summer cuts.

More teams play the 4-3 than the 3-4. AFC has more 3-4 teams than the NFC... GB is the only 3-4 NFC North team.

I probably missed a team or two ... It's late and I have to get to bed.

3-4 teams: Cowboys, Patriots, Lions, Dolphins, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Jets, 49ers - plays 1/2 and 1/2, forgot the name of the scheme), Ravens, Green Bay, Chargers.



hope it's what you're having a conversation about -- i'm tired

JASONSAUTO
05-21-2009, 07:00 AM
Okay, but obviously they WERE building towards something greater, and doing it in a clearly laid-out and pragmatic way.

And THAT, is NOT Carl Peterson.

you made the point, they WERE BUILDING to something greater. three years: 5-11, 11-5, 9-7,= one fucking game over .500. mediocre if you ask ANYONE with some sense. now if you just forget about the 5-11 yeah they were above average, but the 5-11 happened right? you fuckers acted like they were 5-11 then totally DOMINATED. didnt happen. they had some mediocrity mixed in. almost ALWAYS happens, in fact show me an example of it NOT happening. I.E. a team that went from VERY poor to multiple SB championships WITHOUT some mediocrity mixed in.

Coach
05-21-2009, 07:08 AM
Fine, trade the fucker away.

Coach
05-21-2009, 07:09 AM
Sorry. i'm trying to understand your post.

If you're talking about 2001. The Giants were 9th in Offense and 14th in Defense.

Stats really don't mean much once you make the playoffs -- Winning the SB counts. j/m/o

2008 the Steelers had a No #1 defense --Yet, the Giants beat them... what did it mean? -- nothing -- Pittsburgh won the Super Bowl


Example of stats: Giants and Patriots (had Giants stats)

Patriots won 3 SBs. Proves teams do not have to be #1 to win it all

Giants 2001 Patriots 2001
Offense 9th 19th
Defense 14th 24th

Giants 2002 Patriots
Offense 6th 21st
Defense 9th 23rd

Giants 2003 Patriots 2003
Offense 20th 17th
Defense 22nd 7th

Giants 2004 Patriots 2004
Defense 13 9th
Offense 23rd 7th

Giants 2005 Patriots 2005
Offense 4th 7th
Defense 24th 26th

Giants 2006 Patriots 2006
Offense 14th 11th
Defense 25th 6th

Giants 2007 Patriots
Offense 16th 1st
Defense 7th 4th

Giants 2008 Patriots 2008
Offense 7th 5th
Defense 5th 10th


When the Giants played the Cardinals, Penderghast ran a variety of defensive schemes. AZ ran 4-3, 4-6, & 5-2, more than a 3-4. Same variety in the Super Bowl.

I also believe, Pioli will add depth to the team during the summer cuts.

More teams play the 4-3 than the 3-4. AFC has more 3-4 teams than the NFC... GB is the only 3-4 NFC North team.

I probably missed a team or two ... It's late and I have to get to bed.

3-4 teams: Cowboys, Patriots, Lions, Dolphins, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Jets, 49ers - plays 1/2 and 1/2, forgot the name of the scheme), Ravens, Green Bay, Chargers.



hope it's what you're having a conversation about -- i'm tired

Damn, a woman talking stats and football, combined? Stop it baby, you're making most of the guys rowdy....

Heh heh.

Raised On Riots
05-21-2009, 08:45 AM
you made the point, they WERE BUILDING to something greater. three years: 5-11, 11-5, 9-7,= one fucking game over .500. mediocre if you ask ANYONE with some sense. now if you just forget about the 5-11 yeah they were above average, but the 5-11 happened right? you fuckers acted like they were 5-11 then totally DOMINATED. didnt happen. they had some mediocrity mixed in. almost ALWAYS happens, in fact show me an example of it NOT happening. I.E. a team that went from VERY poor to multiple SB championships WITHOUT some mediocrity mixed in.

WHO THE FUCK SAID "DOMINATE", SAUTO?!?!?!?!

Jesus H. Monkeyballs; enough of this goddamned thread already.
OUT!

kcbubb
05-21-2009, 08:57 AM
Okay, this then:

What EXACTLY are you trying to get at? We've got a TF pining for mediocrity, and Clay points out that the Pats went from a 5 win season to a Super Bowl victory. His point was 100% valid within the context of the debate!


Just for the record. I wasn't pining for mediocrity. I was saying that I'm afraid that we may be so bad, that we may miss being mediocre.

kcbubb
05-21-2009, 09:58 AM
Now you're either not bothering to read, or you're just flat out lying. Here's the quote that I responded to with the "Napoleon Harris, Glenn Dorsey" comment:


It's right there in post #212. You were making the claim that the personnel was essentially the same and I was pointing out some personnel changes. This nonsense that the defense was essentially the same is just that, nonsense.

In 2007, Law and Surtain were the starting corners. In 2008, Law wasn't on the team and Surtain only started in 2 of the 8 games he played in.


The question was what caused the defense to drop for 13th in 07 to 31st in 08? The defensive roster was basically the same or upgraded except for Jared Allen.

Those guys (Law & Surtain) were old and the position was upgraded by Flowers, Carr, and Leggett. Flowers, Carr and Leggett did not cause the defense to suck. Even when Surtain was healthy, he couldn't win his job back.


In 2007, Napoleon Harris was the starting MLB. In 2008, he was in Minnesota.


Harris was cut because the staff was not satisfied with him and liked Pat Thomas. That's one part I considered basically the same.


In 2007, the starting DTs were Ron Edwards and Alphonso Boone. In 2008, the starting tackles were Tyler and Dorsey.


Who was better? and both Edwards and Boone were on the team in 2008. This position was at least the same or upgraded.


In 2007, Donnie Edwards started all 16 games at linebacker. In 2008, he only played in 7 games, and only started 4.


At 35 years of age, Donnie was not a difference maker for this defense. Demorrio Williams substituted in his absence and played about the same.



Then there's the Allen switch. So, despite your claims, there wasn't just a minor tweak to the defense, there were 6 new starters on the offense, and 7 if you consider Edwards removed from the starting lineup. Either way, that's more than half the starters replaced in one season. If there's one of us who doesn't know anything about the Chiefs, that would seem to be you.

The real difference in the 13th ranked 2007 Chiefs defense and the 2008 31st ranked defense was one player.... Jared Allen. That's a huge change in ranking. The sack total dropped from 37 to 10. Some of the other players may have made a slight impact, but the real difference was Allen.

I guess this was your answer for the 18 rank drop in the defense from 07 to 08.


Also, while some players improved, others regressed.

:shake: Stick to the Pats. It's obvious you know more about them.

JASONSAUTO
05-21-2009, 02:04 PM
WHO THE FUCK SAID "DOMINATE", SAUTO?!?!?!?!

Jesus H. Monkeyballs; enough of this goddamned thread already.
OUT!

NO one said it but it was sure implied and at least you have unsubscribed:D

Okie_Apparition
01-22-2012, 04:33 PM
greased

Douche Baggins
01-22-2012, 04:33 PM
BRIAN WATERS GETS THE LAST LAUGH, FAT SCOTT!

Deberg_1990
01-22-2012, 04:34 PM
I'm happy for Waters, he finally got to play with a championship QB and made it to the big dance.

Bowser
01-22-2012, 04:36 PM
I'm happy for Waters, he finally got to play with a championship QB and made it to the big dance.

Yeah, good for him. Good guy.

In before the "FUCK HIM HE DOESN'T PLAY HERE" pitchfork crowd.