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MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 12:27 PM
I went to the Chiefsí first full offseason practice wondering more about their defense, but I left with more questions about the offense.

Letís start with the offensive line: Very thin without Brian Waters there. Theyíve got two starters who are over 30 ó Damion McIntosh is 32, Mike Goff is 33 ó and both those guys had better hold up or the Chiefs might be in some trouble. Very thin as far as depth; very few proven experienced guys as backups.

The receiving group without Tony Gonzalez: Iím wondering, like everybody else, how thatís going to all play out. Dwayne Bowe dropped some balls and made some nice catches also, but he looked a lot like the Dwayne Bowe we saw last year. The Chiefs really need him to be more consistent because youíve got Mark Bradley and Bobby Engram behind him. Engram is 36. Not a lot of depth there, either.

The running game with Larry Johnson: Youíve heard me say before the Chiefs need Johnson. Heís their running game. I didnít really see a guy whoís capable of handling the every-down load like Johnson is. They used Jamaal Charles like they did last year as a third-down back.

Matt Cassel didnít have one of his better days, but heís the least of the Chiefsí concerns right now. It was a windy day; Iíve seen him throw indoors since joining the Chiefs at an earlier minicamp, and thereís no problem with Matt Cassel.

Chan Gailey: I have a lot of respect for him. He did a great job turning the offense around last year after a rotten start and all the quarterback problems. But heís going to have to earn his money again this year, because there are a lot of issues with the Chiefs offensively.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/1206906.html


Not sure if this is a repost or not, but very interesting considering our defense was 2nd worst in the league last year. Your thoughts?

Buehler445
05-20-2009, 12:33 PM
I went to the Chiefsí first full offseason practice wondering more about their defense, but I left with more questions about the offense.

Letís start with the offensive line: Very thin without Brian Waters there. Theyíve got two starters who are over 30 ó Damion McIntosh is 32, Mike Goff is 33 ó and both those guys had better hold up or the Chiefs might be in some trouble. Very thin as far as depth; very few proven experienced guys as backups.

The receiving group without Tony Gonzalez: Iím wondering, like everybody else, how thatís going to all play out. Dwayne Bowe dropped some balls and made some nice catches also, but he looked a lot like the Dwayne Bowe we saw last year. The Chiefs really need him to be more consistent because youíve got Mark Bradley and Bobby Engram behind him. Engram is 36. Not a lot of depth there, either.

The running game with Larry Johnson: Youíve heard me say before the Chiefs need Johnson. Heís their running game. I didnít really see a guy whoís capable of handling the every-down load like Johnson is. They used Jamaal Charles like they did last year as a third-down back.

Matt Cassel didnít have one of his better days, but heís the least of the Chiefsí concerns right now. It was a windy day; Iíve seen him throw indoors since joining the Chiefs at an earlier minicamp, and thereís no problem with Matt Cassel.

Chan Gailey: I have a lot of respect for him. He did a great job turning the offense around last year after a rotten start and all the quarterback problems. But heís going to have to earn his money again this year, because there are a lot of issues with the Chiefs offensively.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/1206906.html


Not sure if this is a repost or not, but very interesting considering our defense was 2nd worst in the league last year. Your thoughts?


Tiecher is probably a dumbfuck. If the QB position is improved, and the OL can provide as much pass protection as they did for Thiggy in the latter half of the year, than that should offset Tony being gone.

It is very likely that the offense will not be good next year, but the level of SUCK the Defense is coming off of is just unbelievable. It's got a lot further to go before it can be even servicable than does the offense.

The Poz
05-20-2009, 12:41 PM
The is the extended Rotoworld remix of that song:

Bastards.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=NFL&columnid=59&&articleid=32761


Misplaced Optimism in K.C.?

Chiefs beat writer Adam Teicher touched on his offensive concerns this morning, a sentiment with which I happen to fully agree. Despite the feel-good additions of GM Scott Pioli, coach Todd Haley, and nominal franchise quarterback Matt Cassel, expectations for the Chiefs offense this season are far too optimistic.

Let's break this down position-by-position:


Quarterback: Matt Cassel led the NFL in sacks taken last season while the Pats receivers led the league in yards after the catch. With the major downgrade in both receiving talent and offensive line security, Cassel is fighting an uphill battle in proving that last year's production was not simply the product of the Patriots' system. His backup, Tyler Thigpen, was an inaccurate turnover machine in a lost season last year. He has no future under center and must be limited to a shotgun spread offense.

Running Back: Knucklehead Larry Johnson turns 30 during the season and has missed 12 games over the past two years. His running, receiving and blocking abilities have fallen off a cliff since his 2005-2006 career seasons. Backup Jamaal Charles is not capable of handling every down duties, and the rest of depth chart is nothing more than roster fodder.

Wide Receiver: Though he's been inconsistent in his young career, Dwayne Bowe is a dominant talent who rivals Steve Smith and Calvin Johnson for the ability to catch the ball in traffic (other-worldly Larry Fitzgerald obviously excluded). After Bowe, though, we're into finger-crossing territory. Mark Bradley may have potential, but he's been as injury-prone as any wide receiver in the league since being drafted in the second round five years ago. Slot receiver Bobby Engram, 36 and going downhill fast, has played just one full season in five years. As there's zero depth beyond the top three receivers, a Bowe injury has the potential to sink the passing game.

Tight End: Tony Gonzalez is taking a two-year average of 98 catches and 1,115 yards to Atlanta, leaving the Chiefs with a black hole at the position. Brad Cottom recorded just 21 receptions in his college career and figures to be used as a blocking specialist in Haley's offense. His four pedestrian backups have a total of 25 receptions in eight seasons.

Offensive Line: Still holding out for a trade, Pro Bowl guard Brian Waters isn't participating in OTAs. Last year's first-rounder Branden Albert has anchor potential on the left side, but right tackle Damion McIntosh, right guard Mike Goff, and center Rudy Niswanger will struggle to keep the ship afloat. And, again, there's no insurance in reserve, much less the talent to push three ineffective starters.

The masterminds imported to run the operation this offseason have engendered high expectations in Kansas City, but skepticism is advised for fantasy leaguers in 2009. The Chiefs may be battling the Browns and Raiders for the No. 1 pick in next year's draft.

Direckshun
05-20-2009, 12:42 PM
Thigpen didn't get good protection. Thigpen alone lowered our sack total with his athleticism.

alpha_omega
05-20-2009, 12:43 PM
Why is McIntosh still on this team????

The Poz
05-20-2009, 12:44 PM
Other Chief news from rotoworld today:

Jamaal Charles-RB-Chiefs
The new Chiefs coaching staff has been using Jamaal Charles as a third-down back at minicamps.
Coach Todd Haley could employ Charles like he did J.J. Arrington in Arizona last year, although Charles should finish with more touches. Larry Johnson will only be a two-down back. Charles will be an excellent L.J. handcuff pick.

Brad Cottam-TE-Chiefs
New Chiefs starting TE Brad Cottam acknowledged that he doesn't expect to catch many passes in new coach Todd Haley's offense.
Haley rarely threw to tight ends in Arizona, too. "I was brought here...to be more of a blocker," Cottam said. He started seven games in two-TE sets and caught seven passes as a rookie. Don't expect more than 20 grabs this year.

Saccopoo
05-20-2009, 12:45 PM
And why again, in a deep offensive line draft, this position was not addressed is beyond me.

nychief
05-20-2009, 12:46 PM
gotta get waters on board.

JASONSAUTO
05-20-2009, 12:53 PM
thigpen was a turnover machine last year????

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 12:58 PM
thigpen was a turnover machine last year????

Thigpen: 12 INT, 2 Fumbles Lost

Cassel: 11 INT, 4 Fumbles Lost


Cassel is clearly better, but to say Thigpen was a turnover machine is a gross overstatement. (minus the ATL and MIA games, of course!)

Chiefnj2
05-20-2009, 01:04 PM
If KC can finish in the top 20 in either offense or defense that would be considered an excellent year for that side of the ball.

Mr. Krab
05-20-2009, 01:12 PM
Thigpen didn't get good protection. Thigpen alone lowered our sack total with his athleticism.
Yep, I wouldn't be surprised to see Cassel get sacked alot more this year. I mean hopefully the scheme and coaching will keep him upright but Thigpen's legs helped a ton last year.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 01:16 PM
Yep, I wouldn't be surprised to see Cassel get sacked alot more this year. I mean hopefully the scheme and coaching will keep him upright but Thigpen's legs helped a ton last year.

Yeah, but Cassel's pretty mobile, too. Not that we really want to see our QB running all over the place.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 01:16 PM
Why is McIntosh still on this team????

what is really scary is that with the lineup we had at the mini camp that McIntosh is arguable our 2nd best lineman maybe 3rd behind Goff. But Goff is not great either.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 01:18 PM
The is the extended Rotoworld remix of that song:

Bastards.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=NFL&columnid=59&&articleid=32761


Misplaced Optimism in K.C.?

Chiefs beat writer Adam Teicher touched on his offensive concerns this morning, a sentiment with which I happen to fully agree. Despite the feel-good additions of GM Scott Pioli, coach Todd Haley, and nominal franchise quarterback Matt Cassel, expectations for the Chiefs offense this season are far too optimistic.

Let's break this down position-by-position:


Quarterback: Matt Cassel led the NFL in sacks taken last season while the Pats receivers led the league in yards after the catch. With the major downgrade in both receiving talent and offensive line security, Cassel is fighting an uphill battle in proving that last year's production was not simply the product of the Patriots' system. His backup, Tyler Thigpen, was an inaccurate turnover machine in a lost season last year. He has no future under center and must be limited to a shotgun spread offense.

Running Back: Knucklehead Larry Johnson turns 30 during the season and has missed 12 games over the past two years. His running, receiving and blocking abilities have fallen off a cliff since his 2005-2006 career seasons. Backup Jamaal Charles is not capable of handling every down duties, and the rest of depth chart is nothing more than roster fodder.

Wide Receiver: Though he's been inconsistent in his young career, Dwayne Bowe is a dominant talent who rivals Steve Smith and Calvin Johnson for the ability to catch the ball in traffic (other-worldly Larry Fitzgerald obviously excluded). After Bowe, though, we're into finger-crossing territory. Mark Bradley may have potential, but he's been as injury-prone as any wide receiver in the league since being drafted in the second round five years ago. Slot receiver Bobby Engram, 36 and going downhill fast, has played just one full season in five years. As there's zero depth beyond the top three receivers, a Bowe injury has the potential to sink the passing game.

Tight End: Tony Gonzalez is taking a two-year average of 98 catches and 1,115 yards to Atlanta, leaving the Chiefs with a black hole at the position. Brad Cottom recorded just 21 receptions in his college career and figures to be used as a blocking specialist in Haley's offense. His four pedestrian backups have a total of 25 receptions in eight seasons.

Offensive Line: Still holding out for a trade, Pro Bowl guard Brian Waters isn't participating in OTAs. Last year's first-rounder Branden Albert has anchor potential on the left side, but right tackle Damion McIntosh, right guard Mike Goff, and center Rudy Niswanger will struggle to keep the ship afloat. And, again, there's no insurance in reserve, much less the talent to push three ineffective starters.

The masterminds imported to run the operation this offseason have engendered high expectations in Kansas City, but skepticism is advised for fantasy leaguers in 2009. The Chiefs may be battling the Browns and Raiders for the No. 1 pick in next year's draft.

wow... that sounds terrible. they gave Bowe more credit than he was due as well. He's inconsistent and drops too many balls.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 01:19 PM
If KC can finish in the top 20 in either offense or defense that would be considered an excellent year for that side of the ball.


I agree with this. But I don't see it without waters. our o-line will just be too thin.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 01:24 PM
people keep talking about their concern with sacks and the o-line. the biggest concern is that we will have no running game bc our o-line sucks especially without waters. if you have no running game and your offense is one dimensional, it's going to be a long rough season.

Mr. Krab
05-20-2009, 01:28 PM
Yeah, but Cassel's pretty mobile, too. Not that we really want to see our QB running all over the place.
Agreed, but i think they are a different type of mobile. Thigpen is the kinda of mobile that you could almost make him a wide receiver. Cassel is pretty tough though, i've seen him take some hits that would put Brodie Croyle into a coma.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 01:29 PM
His running, receiving and blocking abilities have fallen off a cliff since his 2005-2006 career seasons.

Explains the career-long 65 and 63-yard runs.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 01:29 PM
Thigpen: 12 INT, 2 Fumbles Lost

Cassel: 11 INT, 4 Fumbles Lost


Cassel is clearly better, but to say Thigpen was a turnover machine is a gross overstatement. (minus the ATL and MIA games, of course!)

Cassel played in more games, took more snaps, threw higher-risk passes.

Mr. Krab
05-20-2009, 01:31 PM
people keep talking about their concern with sacks and the o-line. the biggest concern is that we will have no running game bc our o-line sucks especially without waters. if you have no running game and your offense is one dimensional, it's going to be a long rough season.Not really. If we can protect that pass enough to become a pass first team then our running game can be halfway decent. I think that is exactly what Haley will try to do too. Pass,Pass,Pass until the Defense backs the hell up, then run some draws and stretch plays using a 3rd down back like Jamaal Charles.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 01:34 PM
Cassel played in more games, took more snaps, threw higher-risk passes.

Cassel had a better line and better receivers.

I'm not advocating Thigpen at all, just pointing out that he's not any more turnover prone than Cassel.

Mr. Krab
05-20-2009, 01:43 PM
I dunno about that, Cassel threw a ton of short passes, a shit ton. The patriots running game helped Cassel alot too. The pats ran the ball 130 times more than us.

Saccopoo
05-20-2009, 01:45 PM
We will be better next year, both offensively and defensively. Because we couldn't get worse. And there are the Broncos and Raiders in our division. Both seem to have taken a, um, step down in terms of cohesiveness in this off-season. Plus a Norv Turner coached team.

Sure the o-line, at least on paper, sucks. But keep in mind, this o-line, up until last season had minimal coaching, bad quarterback play, a reliance on a tight end as the primary offensive target and, above and beyond all things, Herm. Gailey helped a lot last season, but still was shackled by inconsistency at quarterback, hurt Larry, checkdowns to Tony all season, a qb who was a cast of of the Vikings practice squad, etc.

Holding Cottam in to help block will be a major help to the offensive line. Tony was a receiving stud, but he'd ole block more than LJ. Properly using a fullback and having a tight end stick around and actually block someone will be a bigger boon to the Chiefs offensive line than plugging in some free agent. As well, having a quarterback who can actually throw a spiral will help tremendously.

They will be okay.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 01:47 PM
I'm not advocating Thigpen at all, just pointing out that he's not any more turnover prone than Cassel.

Cassel took roughly 100 more snaps than Thigpen (passing plays) and had one more turnover.

If Thigpen played in the same offense as Cassel, and threw the same number of passes, he'd have more turnovers. Thigpen's inaccuracy means he'd waste opportunities even if Welker and Moss got open.

bobbything
05-20-2009, 01:53 PM
I like how Teicher suggests that he's not worried about Cassel's shaky performance(s) in the wind because he's "seen him throw indoors." Might be a valid reason if we played 8 games in a dome.

News flash, Arrowhead is a windy stadium.

Buehler445
05-20-2009, 01:53 PM
As well, having a quarterback who can actually throw a spiral will help tremendously.
.
ROFL. All I could think about were thigpen's rainbow-duck longball passes that were 15 yards short.

Mad me laugh.

Carry on.
Posted via Mobile Device

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 01:53 PM
Cassel had a better line and better receivers.

I'm not advocating Thigpen at all, just pointing out that he's not any more turnover prone than Cassel.

Cassel's Int% was 2.1, comparied to Thigpen's 2.9. Cassel also had 73 rushing attempts and 47 sacks with 7 fumbles, compared to Thigpen's 62 attempts and 26 sacks with 6 fumbles.

On a per-play basis, Thigpen was definitely more turnover prone than was Cassel. How much that difference holds up now that Cassel isn't in New England is one of the keys to the Kansas City season.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 01:54 PM
Cassel took roughly 100 more snaps than Thigpen (passing plays) and had one more turnover.

If Thigpen played in the same offense as Cassel, and threw the same number of passes, he'd have more turnovers. Thigpen's inaccuracy means he'd waste opportunities even if Welker and Moss got open.

Cassel attempted 32.25 passes per game with 0.9375 turnovers/game.

Thigpen attempted 30 passes per game with an even 1 turnover/game.

In turnovers/pass attempt per game, you can't really get much similar.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 01:55 PM
Cassel attempted 32.25 passes per game with 0.9375 turnovers/game.

Thigpen attempted 30 passes per game with an even 1 turnover/game.

In turnovers/pass attempt per game, you can't really get much similar.

That's a terrible statistic to use.

Cassel played in more games. Hello?

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 01:58 PM
That's a terrible statistic to use.

Cassel played in more games. Hello?

Um, yeah. That's my point. That's why I'm dividing by the number of games played.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 01:58 PM
Um, yeah. That's my point. That's why I'm dividing by the number of games played.

You shouldn't divide.

If Thigpen played the same number of games as Cassel, he'd turn it over more.

End of story.

L.A. Chieffan
05-20-2009, 01:58 PM
Tell me Claythan, do you think the Chief's offense is becoming too...commerical?

I read that.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 02:00 PM
You shouldn't divide.

If Thigpen played the same number of games as Cassel, he'd turn it over more.

End of story.

Yes, I said Thigpen turns it over more. I'm not denying that. My point is that they really aren't that dissimilar in turnover ratio, so to call Thigpen any more turnover prone than Cassel is inaccurate.

Cormac
05-20-2009, 02:06 PM
You shouldn't divide.

Two words: PER GAME

Way to miss the point.

:shake:

FAX
05-20-2009, 03:14 PM
It's far too early to determine whether or not the offense is going to be effective. Teicher should know that. It's not even June, bug.

I do think, however, that we're going to miss #88 a lot more than some peeps realize. We've relied on that guy for clutch catches, first downs, and drawing double teams for a whole lot of years. It's going to be like a black hole in the Chiefs passing game. Or, for the more politically correct among us, a hole of indeterminate color.

FAX

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 03:20 PM
It's far too early to determine whether or not the offense is going to be effective. Teicher should know that. It's not even June, bug.

I do think, however, that we're going to miss #88 a lot more than some peeps realize. We've relied on that guy for clutch catches, first downs, and drawing double teams for a whole lot of years. It's going to be like a black hole in the Chiefs passing game. Or, for the more politically correct among us, a hole of indeterminate color.

FAX


the last time we lost one of our best players (Jared Allen) the defense went from 13th to 31st.

If Gonzo and Waters are gone, I would expect a similar drop, except we don't have as far to fall this time.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 03:22 PM
Two words: PER GAME

Way to miss the point.

:shake:

No, you have missed the point.

The statistics bear out that if Thigpen and Cassel threw an equal number of passes, over the course of a season, Thigpen would turn the ball over more.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 03:25 PM
No, you have missed the point.

The statistics bear out that if Thigpen and Cassel threw an equal number of passes, over the course of a season, Thigpen would turn the ball over more.

Sure.

0.0625 more turnovers per game, according to the very small sample size.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 03:32 PM
Sure.

0.0625 more turnovers per game, according to the very small sample size.

and very similar supporting staffs! ROFL

FAX
05-20-2009, 03:33 PM
Cassel attempted 32.25 passes per game with 0.9375 turnovers/game.

Thigpen attempted 30 passes per game with an even 1 turnover/game.

In turnovers/pass attempt per game, you can't really get much similar.

I think I understand what you're saying, Mr. MoreLemonPledge. You just need to expand the numbers in order to reach a statistically significant sample.

For example, assuming that both Cassel and Thigpen were to each throw a total of 7,433 passes of between 5 and 50 yards, Cassel would be intercepted 74 times, while Thigpen would be intercepted 4,021 times, run out of bounds 23 times, call timeout 62 times, attempt to punt the football 511 times, and, on 980 occasions, heave the rock left-handed out of the back of the enemy end zone. Correct?

FAX

Blick
05-20-2009, 03:33 PM
I like how Teicher suggests that he's not worried about Cassel's shaky performance(s) in the wind because he's "seen him throw indoors." Might be a valid reason if we played 8 games in a dome.

News flash, Arrowhead is a windy stadium.

He played outside in New England. I think he'll be fine. I don't think Arrowhead is that windy, either.

KC Dan
05-20-2009, 03:34 PM
When the Chiefs start stopping the run, I will start worrying about the offense.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 03:37 PM
I think I understand what you're saying, Mr. MoreLemonPledge. You just need to expand the numbers in order to reach a statistically significant sample.

For example, assuming that both Cassel and Thigpen were to each throw a total of 7,433 passes of between 5 and 50 yards, Cassel would be intercepted 74 times, while Thigpen would be intercepted 4,021 times, run out of bounds 23 times, call timeout 62 times, attempt to punt the football 511 times, and, on 980 occasions, heave the rock left-handed out of the back of the enemy end zone. Correct?

FAX

I think you're my favorite.

RedNeckRaider
05-20-2009, 03:48 PM
I think I understand what you're saying, Mr. MoreLemonPledge. You just need to expand the numbers in order to reach a statistically significant sample.

For example, assuming that both Cassel and Thigpen were to each throw a total of 7,433 passes of between 5 and 50 yards, Cassel would be intercepted 74 times, while Thigpen would be intercepted 4,021 times, run out of bounds 23 times, call timeout 62 times, attempt to punt the football 511 times, and, on 980 occasions, heave the rock left-handed out of the back of the enemy end zone. Correct?

FAX

When Thigpen has a chance to run the Patriots offense you will be able to compare them more fairly.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:09 PM
Ha that article basically says what I said after the draft, they've put Matt Cassel in a position to fail.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 04:15 PM
Ha that article basically says what I said after the draft, they've put Matt Cassel in a position to fail.

I think that's exactly what they intended.

Hey, we inherited a team with holes at nearly every single position! We must make sure that we address them all in one draft, or we've failed!

orange
05-20-2009, 04:16 PM
Agreed, but i think they are a different type of mobile. Thigpen is the kinda of mobile that you could almost make him a wide receiver. Cassel is pretty tough though, i've seen him take some hits that would put Brodie Croyle into a coma.

Didn't the pre-game handshake once break Croyle's arm?

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:17 PM
I think that's exactly what they intended.

Hey, we inherited a team with holes at nearly every single position! We must make sure that we address them all in one draft, or we've failed!

If you decide you're getting your QB now, you are obligated as a franchise to put him in a good position.

You don't go get a QB then spend all your money and picks on defense, or that QB will fail.

It's why what the Lions did was stupid, they didn't put Stafford in a good spot either with their moves.

If you decide Cassel is your franchise guy you are obligated to put him in a situation that is atleast good enough for him to not get his brains beat in and shit on himself.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 04:22 PM
If you decide you're getting your QB now, you are obligated as a franchise to put him in a good position.

You don't go get a QB then spend all your money and picks on defense, or that QB will fail.

It's why what the Lions did was stupid, they didn't put Stafford in a good spot either with their moves.

If you decide Cassel is your franchise guy you are obligated to put him in a situation that is atleast good enough for him to not get his brains beat in and shit on himself.

I think they just saw a good opportunity to get their QB. Either the draft didn't fall so that they could get the O-Linemen they wanted or they think they can work with what they have. I don't necessarily think they've set Cassel up for failure.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:24 PM
I think they just saw a good opportunity to get their QB. Either the draft didn't fall so that they could get the O-Linemen they wanted or they think they can work with what they have. I don't necessarily think they've set Cassel up for failure.

Did you miss the rotoworld post that essentially says the Chiefs have 2 players worth a shit on offense?

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 04:27 PM
Did you miss the rotoworld post that essentially says the Chiefs have 2 players worth a shit on offense?

Continuing your rampage against Larry Johnson?

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 04:30 PM
Did you miss the rotoworld post that essentially says the Chiefs have 2 players worth a shit on offense?

So what's the proper solution? Draft guys who won't start this year (if ever), or get a bunch of high priced overrated veterans?

These things take time. I don't think they want Cassel to fail, but there's the fact that our defense was absolutely atrocious that needs to be addressed as well.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:31 PM
This is what I posted right after the draft...

Watch I will now provide a take as to why I think this draft creates issues that has nothing to do with Scott Pioli.

Everyone knows I like Mark Sanchez right...but when you decide you are going to trade for Matt Cassel and essentially say this is our guy, you don't set him up to fail.

When the Chiefs decided they would trade Tony Gonzalez, then go into the draft which was very deep at OL and WR and proceed to draft a bunch of defensive players in what is considered a weak defensive year. This is called being married to a defensive scheme and trying to shoehorn it in no matter what.

If you want to say Tyson Jackson was the right pick you can, but after that they really should have focused on the deep OL and WR positions in the draft. Leaving Matt Cassel with 1 dependable receiver and no upgrades on the Oline is just asking for him to look bad and get his brains beat in.

That is how you ruin a player, when you take a young guy and decide he is your franchise you do things to put him in a position to succeed not fail. What the Chiefs did this weekend was not fair to Matt Cassel.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:32 PM
So what's the proper solution? Draft guys who won't start this year (if ever), or get a bunch of high priced overrated veterans?

These things take time. I don't think they want Cassel to fail, but there's the fact that our defense was absolutely atrocious that needs to be addressed as well.

Sure it does but when I'm a 2 win team that makes a move for a QB, I'm more concerned with him at that time. A defense can be rebuilt quickly, you ruin a QB, you signed your release.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:32 PM
Continuing your rampage against Larry Johnson?

He's a 30 year old running back with the mentality of a 5 year old.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 04:33 PM
He's a 30 year old running back with the mentality of a 5 year old.

He's worth a shit on offense despite all of that.

Please recognize it.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 04:35 PM
He's worth a shit on offense despite all of that.

Please recognize it.

When he's not hurt.

He may be worth a shit, but he's certainly not worth his contract.

milkman
05-20-2009, 04:35 PM
He's worth a shit on offense despite all of that.

Please recognize it.

The only way he's worth a shit is if the O-Line can create holes for him, and he then runs with the same physical style he ran with 3 years ago.

Otherwise he's fucking useless.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:36 PM
In comparison to what?

If you did a listing of RB's in the league where's he coming in at? 20th? I'm not gonna spooge myself over an aging RB that still doesn't pick up blitzes that is watching nearly every RB in the league pass him on the good scale.

We're at a point now where we're talking about a 30 year old RB, a 36 year old WR, a WR who literally can not stay healthy...and then Bowe who I like but he's far from Mr. Reliable right now as if they can get the job done.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 04:36 PM
He's a 30 year old running back with the mentality of a 5 year old.

When he's not hurt.

He may be worth a shit, but he's certainly not worth his contract.

Thanks for introducing meaningless issues.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 04:36 PM
If you decide you're getting your QB now, you are obligated as a franchise to put him in a good position.

You don't go get a QB then spend all your money and picks on defense, or that QB will fail.

It's why what the Lions did was stupid, they didn't put Stafford in a good spot either with their moves.

If you decide Cassel is your franchise guy you are obligated to put him in a situation that is atleast good enough for him to not get his brains beat in and shit on himself.

I really wish Detroit would have taken Jason Smith with the 1st pick and traded their 20, 33, and 137 for our #3 pick and taken Stafford.

They would be better off and so would we.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:38 PM
I really wish Detroit would have taken Jason Smith with the 1st pick and traded their 20, 33, and 137 for our #3 pick and taken Stafford.

They would be better off and so would we.

The Lions would have been fine currently if they would have made proper picks, they could have come out of this draft with Stafford, Oher, Britton and Jared Cook.

Sounds like a nice start for your young franchise QB, but no that's to logical.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 04:41 PM
In comparison to what?

If you did a listing of RB's in the league where's he coming in at? 20th?

I don't know, man. Where do you list Tomlinson? That motherfucker couldn't average 4 YPC last year. Neither could Willie Parker, Matt Forte, Ryan Grant, Marion Barber, Willis McGahee, Fred Taylor or Joseph Addai.

And yet something tells me you would have traded LJ for ANY of those running backs after the 2007 season.

You'll never, ever admit you're wrong about Larry Johnson. He bounced back in a way almost no one expected last year. But yeah, he's not worth a shit. Not at ALL.

kcbubb
05-20-2009, 04:44 PM
The Lions would have been fine currently if they would have made proper picks, they could have come out of this draft with Stafford, Oher, Britton and Jared Cook.

Sounds like a nice start for your young franchise QB, but no that's to logical.

I still think it would have been nice for them to have Smith and Stafford. We could have taken their current LT Backus in on the trade instead of the late pick. He could have started at guard immediately.

I think that would have been great for the Chiefs to have #20, #33 and Backus for the #3 pick.

But I agree that they should have done more for the offense. Maybe they are thinking that they can late Culpepper get killed this year and bring in another LT next year when Stafford starts. That is if they wait to start him.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 04:46 PM
I don't know, man. Where do you list Tomlinson? That mother****er couldn't average 4 YPC last year. Neither could Willie Parker, Matt Forte, Ryan Grant, Marion Barber, Willis McGahee, Fred Taylor or Joseph Addai.

And yet something tells me you would have traded LJ for ANY of those running backs after the 2007 season.

You'll never, ever admit you're wrong about Larry Johnson. He bounced back in a way almost no one expected last year. But yeah, he's not worth a shit. Not at ALL.

Take away the Denver game (198 yds), the Atlanta game (121 yds because of a big run), and maybe even the Miami game (108 yds). Then what do you have?

He was wildly inconsistent and hurt last year. He's not great.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:47 PM
I still think it would have been nice for them to have Smith and Stafford. We could have taken their current LT Backus in on the trade instead of the late pick. He could have started at guard immediately.

I think that would have been great for the Chiefs to have #20, #33 and Backus for the #3 pick.

They probably didn't wanna pay that kinda money, either way they were still in great position to get their QB and fix their line and they didn't do it, that's why they're the Lions.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:48 PM
I don't know, man. Where do you list Tomlinson? That motherfucker couldn't average 4 YPC last year. Neither could Willie Parker, Matt Forte, Ryan Grant, Marion Barber, Willis McGahee, Fred Taylor or Joseph Addai.

And yet something tells me you would have traded LJ for ANY of those running backs after the 2007 season.

You'll never, ever admit you're wrong about Larry Johnson. He bounced back in a way almost no one expected last year. But yeah, he's not worth a shit. Not at ALL.

So you are going to compare him to a bunch of guys who had bad years? To show you how much faith the Colts have in Addai they used their 1st pick on another RB.

That's the difference in teams, we keep running our declining pile out there, they replace him.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 04:50 PM
So you are going to compare him to a bunch of guys who had bad years?

Matt Forte had an excellent year. So did a handful of those other guys.

None of them averaged 4.5 YPC.

I'm guessing Larry is REALLY going to make you eat crow this year. Unless he gets hurt. Which of course, is unlikely, because he's as durable as they come. Even after the 400 carry gauntlet.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 04:51 PM
Matt Forte had an excellent year. So did a handful of those other guys.

None of them averaged 4.5 YPC.

Because YPC is the only thing that matters.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 04:52 PM
I'm guessing Larry is REALLY going to make you eat crow this year. Unless he gets hurt. Which of course, is unlikely, because he's as durable as they come. Even after the 400 carry gauntlet.

Now I'm starting to wonder if you're even being serious.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 04:52 PM
Because YPC is the only thing that matters.

I'd say it's pretty important in judging a running back.

If LJ had averaged 3.8 YPC like LT I'm sure Mecca would be screaming at the top of his lungs about how washed up LJ is.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:52 PM
I'm going to guess they all carried significantly more than he did since Johnson missed games and got to play in an where he carried less, so a couple of big runs skew his average..

Lets not bring up the 2nd halves of games when running would have been good and he had 1 yard carries.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:53 PM
Tomlinson is fucking old, he has a ton of wear on his body, he's declining just the same.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 04:53 PM
I'm going to guess they all carried significantly more than he did since Johnson missed games and got to play in an where he carried less, so a couple of big runs skew his average..


Yes, damn Larry for breaking off those big runs.

Stupid motherfucker! Stop skewing your average!

What are you going to say when LJ puts up 1300 yards this year?

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 04:54 PM
I'd say it's pretty important in judging a running back.

So is consistency, right? Blocking? Receiving?

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:54 PM
I remember the last time you were this sure he would do something...he proceeded to get injured.

Honest question which teams do we have a better RB situation than, start listing them off. This Johnson/Charles backfield is not high among the league RB tandems.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 04:57 PM
I remember the last time you were this sure he would do something...he proceeded to get injured.

Who cares? You were sure he was gonna limp his way around the football field last season and he did the exact opposite.


This Johnson/Charles backfield is not high among the league RB tandems.

I think it's ready to explode, personally. Charles is the perfect complement to LJ.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 04:59 PM
Name off the teams the Chiefs have a better RB situation than...I'll start, Seattle.

Saccopoo
05-20-2009, 04:59 PM
Maybe they are thinking that they can late Culpepper get killed this year and bring in another LT next year when Stafford starts. That is if they wait to start him.

I think this is exactly what is going to happen. I sincerely doubt Stafford sees the field this year. Culpepper reported to mini-camp in the best shape of his career and looks good for another year or two while the Lions work the kinks out on both sides of the ball and let Stafford learn about the NFL defenses without getting killed in the process.

I also think that Detroit wasn't going to take a double top three payday hit.

I agree with Mecca that Oher would have been a wonderful choice for them, but I think that Pettigrew gives them a solid blocker and an immediate safety valve for the offense. He'll help Smith and Johnson in opening up the offense from day one. He's going to be a good player and should contribute at a high level immediately.

TRR
05-20-2009, 05:01 PM
I somewhat agree with what Teicher says. The loss of Tony Gonzalez is devistating (although probably the right move). There is no other offensive threat to come close to TG's production on the team. It will be a carousel of Bradley, Engram, Cottam, and Webb.

There are SOOOO many questions about our offense, I don't even know where to begin...

* Can Bradley stay healthy and become a reliable threat? Does Engram offer anything but a situational receiver?

* What is the offensive line going to be like? Goff is an upgrade, but McIntosh is still at RT. Is Waters going to come out of hiding?

* Can Cottam at least hold down the fort at TE?

* What LJ are we getting? The one that will be suspended half the season, or the one that can stay out of trouble and run with a purpose?

* How well will the offense gel? Cassel is going to be solid, but there are a TON of pieces around him that are up in the air.

Rome wasn't built in a day, but I think as of right now, the offense last season was more set going into mini camp/training camp then it is right now. HUGE question marks will haunt this team throughout the entire training camp, and we as fans won't see what this offense is capable of doing until mid to end of this season, and hopefully some questions can be answered. This offense reminds me a lot of when we traded for Trent Green and signed Priest Holmes. There are some good building blocks here, but KC is way off from completing the structure.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:01 PM
I think this is exactly what is going to happen. I sincerely doubt Stafford sees the field this year. Culpepper reported to mini-camp in the best shape of his career and looks good for another year or two while the Lions work the kinks out on both sides of the ball and let Stafford learn about the NFL defenses without getting killed in the process.

I also think that Detroit wasn't going to take a double top three payday hit.

I agree with Mecca that Oher would have been a wonderful choice for them, but I think that Pettigrew gives them a solid blocker and an immediate safety valve for the offense. He'll help Smith and Johnson in opening up the offense from day one. He's going to be a good player and should contribute at a high level immediately.

I don't think taking Daniel Graham version 2 should be a priority in the first round when you went 0-16 and just drafted what you think is your franchise QB.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 05:03 PM
Name off the teams the Chiefs have a better RB situation than...I'll start, Seattle.

Oakland.

Denver.

San Diego.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:04 PM
Oakland.

Denver.

San Diego.

Uh no, I disagree with all of those.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 05:04 PM
Uh no, I disagree with all of those.

That is because you are stupid.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:05 PM
That is because you are stupid.

Explain to me what makes the Chiefs RB's better than those teams....this'll be good.

Saccopoo
05-20-2009, 05:07 PM
I remember the last time you were this sure he would do something...he proceeded to get injured.

Honest question which teams do we have a better RB situation than, start listing them off. This Johnson/Charles backfield is not high among the league RB tandems.

It's not, but that's based on LJ being injured the last couple of seasons. Also that our offense in the past three years hasn't been much to write home about. And I've never been a big LJ fan. Doesn't block, suspect hands, doesn't have a lot of patience finding holes and seems to take him until midway through the second quarter (at the earliest) to get going. That being said, when he gets going, he's a load and runs very effectively for a lot of yardage.

And I like Charles a lot. I think he'll be an excellent change of pace, third down back this next season.

As well, Mike Cox had an exceptional rookie season and only looks to get better with a better coaching game plan.

Also, consider that we'll have a big tight end that will stay home and dedicate himself to run and pass blocking rather than leaking out as the safety valve.

While the national media/pundits aren't super high on the Chiefs running game, I think that it's a pretty good situation and one that will gain a lot of attention as the season progresses, especially if they are able to make some early passes and get the field stretched early on in the season.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 05:07 PM
Explain to me what makes the Chiefs RB's better than those teams....this'll be good.

No. You will refute it regardless of what I say.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:09 PM
I wanna hear a good reason......

Charles as a 2nd back change of pace guy is fine, I don't like him as a 3rd down back because his receiving ability is pretty suspect. Just the same as him returning kicks wasn't a good idea. He's not CJ Spiller or Felix Jones lets stop trying to use him like he is.

I'm sure Claythan would try to argue experience is better than a rookie but for the RB position it's not, every person on this forum would rather have Moreno than LJ, unless their brain fell out.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 05:12 PM
Charles as a 2nd back change of pace guy is fine, I don't like him as a 3rd down back because his receiving ability is pretty suspect.

Oh that explains all the catches he made on third down last year. Are you brain dead?


every person on this forum would rather have Moreno than LJ, unless their brain fell out.

Moreno and his blazing 4.6 speed, you mean?

That guy will NEVER have a 60-yard run in the NFL.

Seriously, there is a REASON the Chiefs didn't sign any free agent running backs. A REASON they didn't draft a RB until the 7th round.

Do you think Scott Pioli is stupid? I'm guessing he took one look at the tape and set "welp, I'm set at running back!"

Saccopoo
05-20-2009, 05:13 PM
I don't think taking Daniel Graham version 2 should be a priority in the first round when you went 0-16 and just drafted what you think is your franchise QB.

I agree, and I would have taken Oher at 20 as well if I was drafting for the Lions. But I'm not going to argue hard against Pettigrew either, as the guy can block quite well and does provide a safety valve in the process in terms of dump downs.

I do question their third round picks more, because there were some very good OT prospects still on the board, but the Chiefs, at least on paper, seemed to have made the same mistake.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:14 PM
Arguing with you about LJ is hilarious you're blinders are so far on, Larry Johnson should have been off this team 2 years ago.

I love how you just gloss over all the Charles drops, at this time the guy is not a good receiver. Decent is probably the proper word but not a good enough one to be shoehorned into this 3rd down back role or to have him trying to do kickoffs.

And the 4.6...Knowshon Moreno is basically Priest Holmes, guess that sucks.

Do I think he's stupid at RB, well I dunno they used a 1st round pick on Laurence Maroney and let their starting RB be Antowain Smith for years....

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 05:15 PM
And the 4.6...Knowshon Moreno is basically Priest Holmes, guess that sucks.

Write it down, folks.

Moreno is Priest fucking Holmes. An NFL rushing champion.

We'll see how this plays out in six months.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:16 PM
He plays exactly like Holmes, anyone that watched him at all could see that.

If you wanna argue that it's better to have a 30 year old RB than a 21 year old RB, go ahead, it's retarded though.

Saccopoo
05-20-2009, 05:16 PM
I wanna hear a good reason......

Charles as a 2nd back change of pace guy is fine, I don't like him as a 3rd down back because his receiving ability is pretty suspect. Just the same as him returning kicks wasn't a good idea. He's not CJ Spiller or Felix Jones lets stop trying to use him like he is.

I'm sure Claythan would try to argue experience is better than a rookie but for the RB position it's not, every person on this forum would rather have Moreno than LJ, unless their brain fell out.

Eh...but I do like CJ Spiller a lot. If LJ can stay healthy, I think I'd take him over Knowshon - at this point.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:18 PM
Eh...but I do like CJ Spiller a lot. If LJ can stay healthy, I think I'd take him over Knowshon - at this point.

Do you believe that when you take into account what happens to RB's when they turn 30...it's a young mans position.

I like Spiller as much as anyone but he'll never be an everydown guy.

Buehler445
05-20-2009, 05:26 PM
Oakland.

Denver.

San Diego.

Oakland? You think McFadden is worse than what the Chiefs are wheeling out there? Oakland actually runs the ball well. It's just JaFatass that loses games for them.

Denver got one of the best backs in the draft.

San Diego...Depends. If LT can totally not suck shit, Sprolles can do some damage. He can't be every down, but he can carry the ball a lot and do well.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:27 PM
Oakland has 3 pretty good RB's, so it isn't just McFadden.

Saccopoo
05-20-2009, 05:28 PM
Do you believe that when you take into account what happens to RB's when they turn 30...it's a young mans position.

I like Spiller as much as anyone but he'll never be an everydown guy.

Oh, I know he won't, but he's crazy fast and hits holes exceptionally well. He'll be an excellent getting split out of the back field, as a returner, and a third down/change of pace back. People will be looking at him as a Chris Johnson of the Titans type of guy I imagine. I think that they are about the same size and speed, although Spiller looks to be even quicker from the small amount I've seen on him.

And yeah, Larry is going to hit 30 and that seems to be the magic number in terms of longevity in the NFL for the running back position. But he doesn't have a lot of mileage on the wheels and could possibly have a couple of big years left in the tank. There is that potential versus a guy like Shaun Alexander, who was just beat down, especially if they use him primarily as a two down only back and limit the carries. Odds aren't on Larry's side because of the age, but he doesn't have the college or pro carries that most featured RB have at his age.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 05:30 PM
Oakland? You think McFadden is worse than what the Chiefs are wheeling out there?

McFadden had about 150 carries for the year and only averaged 4.4 YPC. You'd think for a guy so fast he'd make a few more big plays. Fuckin' Charles produced more total yards, let alone LJ.

And Fargas is just a poor-man's LJ.

Next.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:30 PM
Oh, I know he won't, but he's crazy fast and hits holes exceptionally well. He'll be an excellent getting split out of the back field, as a returner, and a third down/change of pace back. People will be looking at him as a Chris Johnson of the Titans type of guy I imagine. I think that they are about the same size and speed, although Spiller looks to be even quicker from the small amount I've seen on him.

And yeah, Larry is going to hit 30 and that seems to be the magic number in terms of longevity in the NFL for the running back position. But he doesn't have a lot of mileage on the wheels and could possibly have a couple of big years left in the tank. There is that potential versus a guy like Shaun Alexander, who was just beat down, especially if they use him primarily as a two down only back and limit the carries. Odds aren't on Larry's side because of the age, but he doesn't have the college or pro carries that most featured RB have at his age.

The 400 carry year kind of destroyed the low wear argument, it would be like sitting a car in your garage keeping it in pristine condition then driving it with no oil in the worst possible condition.

MoreLemonPledge
05-20-2009, 05:32 PM
Oakland.

Denver.

San Diego.

McFadden. Bush. Fargas. I'd say Oakland's RBs are really good.

Denver drafted Moreno and actually has depth at RB, however old they may be.

San Diego has a first ballot hall of famer and a nice change of pace guy.

Try again.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 05:34 PM
McFadden. Bush. Fargas. I'd say Oakland's RBs are really good.

Denver drafted Moreno and actually has depth at RB, however old they may be.

San Diego has a first ballot hall of famer and a nice change of pace guy.

Try again.

Bush? ROFL

Freakin' BUSH?

He had three good games at the start of the year and then DISAPPEARED.

You are vastly overrating the Donks...they have a rookie and a bunch of spare parts. Woo freakin' hoo.

LT is washed up so...FAIL.

LJ AND CHARLES IN 09! BY THE POWER OF HALEY-SKULL!

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:36 PM
I can't believe we're actually having an argument that someone wouldn't take Knowshon Moreno over LJ.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 05:43 PM
I can't believe we're actually having an argument that someone wouldn't take Knowshon Moreno over LJ.

I can't believe we're actually having an argument that someone WOULD take that slow motherfucker over LJ.

LJ will outproduce Knowshon Sloweno in 09. WRITE IT DOWN!

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:44 PM
Have you ever even seen the guy play, this is funny, he is today a more complete player than Larry Johnson.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 05:46 PM
He might be a better blocker but I doubt he is a better receiver (LJ is still getting unfairly criticized after a couple of dropped passes three fucking years ago he is a GOOD receiver) and you're nuts if you think Moreno is putting up 1700 yards.

FAX
05-20-2009, 05:47 PM
It's really kind of crazy. We have some pretty decent RBs. In fact, I recall that a lot of peeps considered us to be deep at the RB position last year. Problem is, our overall offense was so inconsistent and the line so poor, we couldn't really get any of these guys in a rhythm or even get a good feel for their potential.

Any reasonable person has to chalk LJ up as a question mark at this point - for a variety of reasons. Charles has potential and could probably develop, but he hasn't been given much of a chance. Change of pace guy? Maybe, but he needs to be able to fill out his game ... blocking, pass receiving, etc. Cheesy is the probably the closest thing we have to an all-purpose back, but he's been injured and hasn't played much since the 2007 season. Have we cut or traded Battle? He's an unknown as is Javarris.

Personally, I think we're an utter mystery at that position. Not that it matters, much. You can't run it if you can't block it. Somebody tell Pioli that we need to rebuild the OL back to its status in the glory days. Once that's accomplished, our RBs will be much better.

FAX

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:50 PM
Everyone in the league has RB's that's kind of the point, there's maybe a handful of teams that have issue at the position.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 05:51 PM
Everyone in the league has RB's that's kind of the point, there's maybe a handful of teams that have issue at the position.

The Chiefs suck at the position, right?

Mecca
05-20-2009, 05:55 PM
They're ok at the position other than the issue of having an aging player with a huge contract at an expendable position.

FAX
05-20-2009, 05:58 PM
That's true, Mr. Mecca. It's real early. Frankly, I'm far more concerned about OL than RB. I haven't seen our OL put a solid, complete game in the books for years.

FAX

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 06:05 PM
They're ok at the position other than the issue of having an aging player with a huge contract at an expendable position.

Yeah shit LJ is eating up ALL the cap room.

SHIT!

Mecca
05-20-2009, 06:08 PM
I love that excuse, yea we're under the cap it doesn't matter so we can overpay guys!

orange
05-20-2009, 06:18 PM
I can't believe we're actually having an argument that someone WOULD take that slow mother****er over LJ.

LJ will outproduce Knowshon Sloweno in 09. WRITE IT DOWN!

Don't worry, I did. :D

He might be a better blocker but I doubt he is a better receiver (LJ is still getting unfairly criticized after a couple of dropped passes three ****ing years ago he is a GOOD receiver) and you're nuts if you think Moreno is putting up 1700 yards.

Moreno won't rush for 1700 yds because that's not the system McDaniels runs. He might approach it in all-purpose yds, though.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 06:20 PM
I love that excuse, yea we're under the cap it doesn't matter so we can overpay guys!

His contract is essentially irrelevant. It was big when he signed it. Now, not so much.

Quit bitching and get ready for more 65-yard runs. God.

Cormac
05-20-2009, 06:55 PM
No, you have missed the point.

The statistics bear out that if Thigpen and Cassel threw an equal number of passes, over the course of a season, Thigpen would turn the ball over more.

I give up.

Reerun_KC
05-20-2009, 07:21 PM
Amazing, this reminds me of the DFB, Hootie, Claythan love fest over Huard a few years ago...

This pretty much gurantees LJ being a big worthless pussy for the upcoming season....

Cormac
05-20-2009, 07:23 PM
FWIW, I would take McFadden, Bush and Skip Towne over our current stable of RBs.

the Talking Can
05-20-2009, 07:55 PM
This is what I posted right after the draft...

Watch I will now provide a take as to why I think this draft creates issues that has nothing to do with Scott Pioli.

Everyone knows I like Mark Sanchez right...but when you decide you are going to trade for Matt Cassel and essentially say this is our guy, you don't set him up to fail.

When the Chiefs decided they would trade Tony Gonzalez, then go into the draft which was very deep at OL and WR and proceed to draft a bunch of defensive players in what is considered a weak defensive year. This is called being married to a defensive scheme and trying to shoehorn it in no matter what.

If you want to say Tyson Jackson was the right pick you can, but after that they really should have focused on the deep OL and WR positions in the draft. Leaving Matt Cassel with 1 dependable receiver and no upgrades on the Oline is just asking for him to look bad and get his brains beat in.

That is how you ruin a player, when you take a young guy and decide he is your franchise you do things to put him in a position to succeed not fail. What the Chiefs did this weekend was not fair to Matt Cassel.

fair?

wtf?

why can't people admit that pioli and haley have their own reasons for what they did?

they looked at the team, looked at the draft, and started a process of rebuilding based on their own evaluations of players and schemes and priorities....it may turn out to be horribly wrong, it may be an epic fail....but, for the love of god admit that they have their own methods and justifications...

they clearly have different evaluations of which problems needed to be addressed first, and which could wait, and what type of duress Cassel can manage for a year....

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 08:26 PM
fair?

wtf?

why can't people admit that pioli and haley have their own reasons for what they did?

they looked at the team, looked at the draft, and started a process of rebuilding based on their own evaluations of players and schemes and priorities....it may turn out to be horribly wrong, it may be an epic fail....but, for the love of god admit that they have their own methods and justifications...

they clearly have different evaluations of which problems needed to be addressed first, and which could wait, and what type of duress Cassel can manage for a year....

If they admitted that, they'd have to stop bitching about every move and would have to concede that it's just barely possible that someone in the world knows more about football than they do.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 08:29 PM
Alright you can have your view on that but putting a QB in a bad position is the quickest and surest way to ruin him.

TRR
05-20-2009, 09:37 PM
Alright you can have your view on that but putting a QB in a bad position is the quickest and surest way to ruin him.

It depends on the QB. Trent Green went through the same thing his first season in KC, and came out fine. Even his second season was rough. I believe both Haley and Pioli know that Cassel is a level headed guy that can take criticism for one season while they get some other pieces around him. The bottom line is that if Cassel could somehow manage to win 4-5 games this season, he would be a success in most fans eyes.

Halfcan
05-20-2009, 09:42 PM
I have been very very unimpressed with the offseason.

Take away the Cassell trade-and it looks even worse.

4-12

Saccopoo
05-20-2009, 10:06 PM
Jackson is fine. There was a need for a DE on the Chiefs, and we got what everyone considered to be the best five technique/3-4 defensive end in the draft. Second round, we get Matt Cassel and Mike Vrabel. I'm fine with that "pick." More than fine actually. But at that point, I would think that you would have to shore up the obvious weaknesses, which were/are offensive line and wide receiver.

Magee in the third round doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Especially considering that Dorsey is on roster, and it looks like they are going to try to make a go of it with him at the end, although I see him and Tank rotating out of the nose tackle spot more than anything. And considering that there were a plethora of high quality receivers still on the board when the Chiefs picked, including Ramses Barden, Brandon Tate, Juaquin Iglesias or an offensive lineman the quality of Kraig Urbik or Antoine Caldwell, it is borderline infuriating to take yet another DE/DT type player.

Then in the fourth to take a CB? Especially when guys like Austin Collie (who the Colts stole in that round), Troy Kropog and especially a guy like Jon Luigs are still on the board...

I'm sure Pioli and Haley know more about the interworkings of football, scouting and drafting than I'll ever know (and they better because they are getting paid an extremely large salary to know such things), but to the casual observer such as myself, it looked like we passed over some really quality players at positions of need, desperate need for players that we didn't have an immediate need for.

We had a chance to have Urbrik, Collie and Tupou on this team, and we got Magee (a backup tackle/end), Washington (dime/special teams) and Brown (who I hope to hell ends up being the player that sticks in this recruiting class more than any of them other than Jackson).

And what really worries me is a lack of depth on the offensive line. What happens if Goff goes down? Or Niswanger? They (Chiefs front office/coaching) are putting a lot of faith in the guys we have on roster. I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt due to Herm and the confusion from that regime, but at least at this point, when we could have shored up holes and depth at positions of need, we did not.

Just Passin' By
05-20-2009, 10:29 PM
And what really worries me is a lack of depth on the offensive line. What happens if Goff goes down? Or Niswanger? They (Chiefs front office/coaching) are putting a lot of faith in the guys we have on roster. I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt due to Herm and the confusion from that regime, but at least at this point, when we could have shored up holes and depth at positions of need, we did not.

Don't be surprised if more ex-Patriots end up on the roster. The Patriots drafted 3 offensive linemen this year, and 2 of them will probably make the roster, so there may very well be a Hochstein and/or an O'Callaghan and/or some other Patriots O-lineman coming to K.C. before the season starts.

TRR
05-20-2009, 10:39 PM
They (Chiefs front office/coaching) are putting a lot of faith in the guys we have on roster. I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt due to Herm and the confusion from that regime, but at least at this point, when we could have shored up holes and depth at positions of need, we did not.

In some instances, I felt that Haley and Pioli trusted the Chiefs depth a little too much (Offensive Line, WR, and LB). And didn't trust it in other areas like CB, DL, and RB. As you say it's really tough to see what the front office saw in a guy like Donald Washington who will have a tough time beating out Leggett for the nickel spot, Magee who will be a situational player for the most part (and reminds me of another player already on the roster in Turk McBride)...all while ignoring Mark Bradley's injury issues, Bobby Engram's, Mark Vrabel's, and Zach Thomas' age, and the depth KC has at RB with the drafting of Javarris Williams.

I guess you could say that why they pay them the big $$$$.

Mecca
05-20-2009, 11:09 PM
Donald Washington's natural talent level basically shits on Legget, hell alot of people would tell you he's more gifted than Macolm Jenkins is.

Count Zarth
05-20-2009, 11:12 PM
Donald Washington's natural talent level basically shits on Legget, hell alot of people would tell you he's more gifted than Macolm Jenkins is.

You do realize Leggett runs like a 4.35?

Mecca
05-20-2009, 11:15 PM
Um natural talent isn't just how fast you run, it's a big combination of things.

Blick
05-21-2009, 03:37 AM
Yeah, I don't understand why people are in love with Leggett and assume he'll be the nickel corner and Washington will only be a dime guy. Washington could take the nickel spot.

As for the offense, there are certainly question marks like everyone has been saying so far. I like Charles, though. I hope he gets more touches on offense and gets to return kicks if Lawrence or someone else isn't clearly the guy for that. He could be a really nice change of pace guy to team with LJ. He's almost exactly like Jerious Norwood from Atlanta.

I have a feeling that Haley will have Bowe on top of his game.

The O-line is a lot better with Goff. McIntosh still sucks, but with better guard play, Cassel will be able to step up in the pocket instead of sprinting outside of it.

Cottam should be able to hold down the TE position. They're not going to ask him to do much, so he shouldn't **** it up.

I have a good feeling about LJ for some reason. He'll certainly hear about the "he's going to be 30" critics and I think we might see the return of angry Larry with something to prove. I hope so, anyway.

I think we're in better shape than people think. I'm always full of optimism this time of year, though.

FAX
05-21-2009, 04:15 AM
I have been very very unimpressed with the offseason.

Take away the Cassell trade-and it looks even worse.

4-12

It has been a strange one, Mr. Halfcan. That's for sure.

I guess we're going for Mariana Trench-type depth on the defensive line, senior discounts on linebacker numbers, and Brady in a bottle at QB. Either Pioli has an amazing, phenomenal, genius of a plan and nobody else in the entire world knows what it is, or somebody's spiking his marinara with ant spray.

FAX

Cormac
05-21-2009, 08:08 AM
I have been very very unimpressed with the offseason.

Take away the Cassell trade-and it looks even worse.

4-12

I think, even more than a 2-14 season, this offseason's moves have illustrated just how bad the team/squad had become. This pitiful roster was about 4-5 years in the making. I'm resigned to looking at this as a long-term project. Another rebuild, if you will. As long as Pioli doesn't come out and say it's a 5-year-plan, we'll be OK!

I think the trade of Gonzalez (which I despise) is Exhibit A for this argument. I'm sure Pioli/Haley could have lived with Gonzo's supposedly negative attitude, knowing that he ALWAYS busts his ass on Sundays. But Pioli knows we're pretty much screwed now, so IHO the 2nd rounder next year (year 2 of his rebuild) is more valuable.

In an attempt to salvage some of the youthful talent on the roster, he has brought in aging vets who he knows will set the example, calm the frustrations and push the begrudgers into action throughout the offseason and regular season. So far, let it be said, Mike "the mong" Vrabel is an "epic fail" in that regard. The biggest mistake of last year's FO was letting all the veteran leadership bleed away, leaving a team of rudderless athletes (not football players) behind. Nobody on that roster had experience of winning. So how could they win?

The later round draft picks also suggest that Pioli/Haley wanted to add speed and athleticism - presumably they'll all be used to upgrade STs as rookies and then compete for starting roles 2010. This year's OL draft picks are Herb Taylor, Barry Richardson and whoever else we still have in the wings. I hope that not adding to this group means that they saw enough in OTAs from those guys to suggest they have as much potential to help in the short term as any mid-late rounders in this past draft.

We're looking at another down year, but I am certain we'll win 4+ games (if only because of coaching). We have addressed the most important position on the field, added the hottest FO person in the league and totally started over. Let's face it, our roster was so bad that a fresh pair of well-trained eyes has decided that these drastic measures were necessary. Anybody who is planning on being frustrated because of missing the playoffs this year should hibernate. At least now, there is a legitimate chance we can be playoff bound in a couple more years. Either way, it's an exciting time.

kcbubb
05-21-2009, 08:36 AM
That's true, Mr. Mecca. It's real early. Frankly, I'm far more concerned about OL than RB. I haven't seen our OL put a solid, complete game in the books for years.

FAX


This.

mikey23545
05-21-2009, 08:38 AM
In an attempt to salvage some of the youthful talent on the roster, he has brought in aging vets who he knows will set the example, calm the frustrations and push the begrudgers into action throughout the offseason and regular season. So far, let it be said, Mike "the mong" Vrabel is an "epic fail" in that regard.

This has been very puzzling.


I'm sure Vrabel knows what Pioli wanted from him when he traded for him. So how to explain his complete absence so far from all team activities? Is Vrabel trying to send some sort of message?

whoman69
05-21-2009, 08:49 AM
Tiecher is probably a dumb****. If the QB position is improved, and the OL can provide as much pass protection as they did for Thigpen in the latter half of the year, than that should offset Tony being gone.

It is very likely that the offense will not be good next year, but the level of SUCK the Defense is coming off of is just unbelievable. It's got a lot further to go before it can be even servicable than does the offense.

Did the line really provide more protection or was Thigpen just able to run out of pressure?

whoman69
05-21-2009, 08:52 AM
Did anybody see the Bears workout on NFL network? I didn't see a single catch. Those receivers are really going to have to get used to Cutler. He throws a low pass towards the gut when its short, instead of to the chest as it should be. The Bears receivers are going to have to do some adjustments, as I don't see Cutler changing a thing.

kcbubb
05-21-2009, 10:23 AM
Did anybody see the Bears workout on NFL network? I didn't see a single catch. Those receivers are really going to have to get used to Cutler. He throws a low pass towards the gut when its short, instead of to the chest as it should be. The Bears receivers are going to have to do some adjustments, as I don't see Cutler changing a thing.

I think Earl Bennett is used to catching his passes. I know you probably haven't heard of him yet, but you will.

He played college ball with Cutler at Vanderbilt. Bennett ended up setting the record for the SEC in receptions in three years of college. Bennett caught the majority of his passes from Cutler.

Cutler will also be playing with Chris Williams who was his LT at Vandy. They shouldn't have any problems with continuity in the huddle.

OctoberFart
05-21-2009, 12:49 PM
I can't believe we're actually having an argument that someone WOULD take that slow mother****er over LJ.

LJ will outproduce Knowshon Sloweno in 09. WRITE IT DOWN!

What was Diaper Boy's combine speed? I think he dropped because it wasn't great. How many 1000 yard season's has he had? Obviously you know nothing again about football as 40 time doesn't necessarily translate into game speed. It sucks Denver got Moreno.

J Diddy
05-21-2009, 05:16 PM
What was Diaper Boy's combine speed? I think he dropped because it wasn't great. How many 100 yard season's has he had? Obviously you know nothing again about football as 40 time doesn't necessarily translate into game speed. It sucks Denver got Moreno.


um wrong

lj dropped because he only started one year


oh and lj has had 100 yard seasons every year since he came to the nfl

OctoberFart
05-21-2009, 05:21 PM
um wrong

lj dropped because he only started one year


oh and lj has had 100 yard seasons every year since he came to the nfl

Fixed it for you. How many 1000 yd seasons has he had in his career?