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kcbubb
05-27-2009, 10:24 AM
I would rather play with a bunch of young players and develop them than sign a bunch of old guys if we know that we are going to be bad. Most people seem to believe that the Chiefs are going to be lucky to win six games.

If that is the case, why not look for the next Brandon Carr, Mark Bradley or Mike Cox??? It's hard to find those guys if they don't get a chance to play.

Why are we wasting this valuable playing time on players like Zach Thomas, Mike Vrabel, Mike Goff, and Bobby Engram??? I am sure that they will contribute and play well for the Chiefs at times.

If we were a team that were close to making a playoff run, I would welcome the addition of the older players, but the Chiefs are still developing their roster especially with the change to the 3-4.

If we are going to be bad, I would really rather see Brian Johnston play rather than Vrabel. And I would rather see Quinten Lawrence play rather than Engram.

Or are you one that believes that these older players provide valuable leadership???

LaChapelle
05-27-2009, 10:27 AM
Off the street guys to fill out the roster? Haley was only being a prick.

keg in kc
05-27-2009, 10:28 AM
Not so much valuable leadership as experienced players to fill numerous holes. There's going to be a lot of roster turnover from 2009 to 2011 and I don't think you just throw bodies out there and hope you get lucky. The mentality of how to build a team is different now than it was a year ago, too, they're as (or more) concerned with cohesiveness and the "team concept" as they are with sheer talent. Personally, I think this is the way to go.

DeezNutz
05-27-2009, 10:28 AM
The next Mark Bradley? He's 27.

milkman
05-27-2009, 10:29 AM
The best way is somehwere in the middle.

You need a good mix of youth and experience.

You need vets who know how to prepare, who understand the game, who serve as mentors and examples for the kids you bring in.

But you have to always be looking for young guys that can repace the vets as their skills diminish.

The Steelers serve as the best example of the way things should work.

And Herman fucking Edwards can choke on Donkey balls.

Deberg_1990
05-27-2009, 10:30 AM
Yes, Herms way was the best. He just needed more time.

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 10:32 AM
The next Mark Bradley? He's 27.

Engram is 36.

Bradley was a street free agent that has shown that he has the ability to contribute and possibly be our #2 receiver.

Dr. Facebook Fever
05-27-2009, 10:32 AM
Iif we know that we are going to be bad.

I doubt Haley/Pioli are willing to just accept being bad.

Brock
05-27-2009, 10:32 AM
I didn't really see a method.

Buehler445
05-27-2009, 10:32 AM
The best way is somehwere in the middle.

You need a good mix of youth and experience.

You need vets who know how to prepare, who understand the game, who serve as mentors and examples for the kids you bring in.

But you have to always be looking for young guys that can repace the vets as their skills diminish.

The Steelers serve as the best example of the way things should work.

And Herman fucking Edwards can choke on Donkey balls.

Pretty much this. Who out there is getting hosed because Vrable will be starting?
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JuicesFlowing
05-27-2009, 10:33 AM
Yes, Herms way was the best. He just needed more time.

And about 12 more quarterbacks, just to be safe.:D

Reerun_KC
05-27-2009, 10:33 AM
You should be banned for life for even thinking that Herms dipshittery was the best...

6 wins in 2 years? 15 in 3?

You have to be fucking kidding right?

Reerun_KC
05-27-2009, 10:34 AM
I doubt Haley/Pioli are willing to just accept being bad.

Herm embraced it and instilled losing into this franchise... He is all that is wrong with professional sports...

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 10:35 AM
Yes, Herms way was the best. He just needed more time.

When you have a team that you know won't make the playoffs, I think you should look for those young guys that can be a building block for your team, not sign a bunch of old guys that won't help you long term.

Reerun_KC
05-27-2009, 10:36 AM
When you have a team that you know won't make the playoffs, I think you should look for those young guys that can be a building block for your team, not sign a bunch of old guys that won't help you long term.

Or go Herms route and draft and sign players that cant help your team long or short term.... This roster is a ****ing mess thanks to Herm and his keen eye for talent...


Herm hurt this franchise more than helped it... His lack of talent evaluation skills set us back years...

milkman
05-27-2009, 10:37 AM
When you have a team that you know won't make the playoffs, I think you should look for those young guys that can be a building block for your team, not sign a bunch of old guys that won't help you long term.

And where exactly do you think they are going to find these young building blocks?

DeezNutz
05-27-2009, 10:37 AM
Engram is 36.

Bradley was a street free agent that has shown that he has the ability to contribute and possibly be our #2 receiver.

He just go injured reading your praise of him. Out 2-4 weeks.

LaChapelle
05-27-2009, 10:38 AM
I'd rather drive with a couple of half bald Uniroyals than two new tires fresh off the boat from /enter third world country here.

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 10:38 AM
You should be banned for life for even thinking that Herms dipshittery was the best...

6 wins in 2 years? 15 in 3?

You have to be ****ing kidding right?

I don't know if you are talking to me or the other guy.

I don't like a lot of what Herm did, but I would rather have younger players than older ones on a bad team.

At least I can see who may turn into a player and who may not and try to build roster.

Is Engram or Thomas going to be here next year??? If not, then what good are they 3 years from now???

Reaper16
05-27-2009, 10:39 AM
Herm's "way" was what the franchise needed -- a total youth movement. The problem was that Herm specifically couldn't coach at all.

DeezNutz
05-27-2009, 10:41 AM
Herm's "way" was what the franchise needed -- a total youth movement. The problem was that Herm specifically couldn't coach at all.

We needed a youth movement, but I don't agree with the "total" part.

A mix of vet. and youth is what every team needs. Always playing for today, yet looking toward the future.

Reerun_KC
05-27-2009, 10:41 AM
Herm's "way" was what the franchise needed -- a total youth movement. The problem was that Herm specifically couldn't coach at all.

True, he couldnt coach, develop or get the players that were needed for a youth movement...

Deberg_1990
05-27-2009, 10:43 AM
I especially enjoyed Herms philosophy of rebuilding a team without a QB the best.

DaKCMan AP
05-27-2009, 10:43 AM
Where's the kcbubb is dumb and DaKCMan AP is Awesome option?

Reerun_KC
05-27-2009, 10:43 AM
I don't know if you are talking to me or the other guy.

I don't like a lot of what Herm did, but I would rather have younger players than older ones on a bad team.

At least I can see who may turn into a player and who may not and try to build roster.

Is Engram or Thomas going to be here next year??? If not, then what good are they 3 years from now???
They are stop gap players to fill voids from where Herm failed to address those spots properly..

Herm failed, Pioli and Haley are patching it to try and make it work. He left this team so full of holes, it will take 3 years to address everything Herm tried to address and EPICALLY FAILED!

Reerun_KC
05-27-2009, 10:44 AM
I especially enjoyed Herms philosophy of rebuilding a team without a QB the best.

But we have Croyle and Thigpen, Oh and Claythans and Hooties love stud Huard...

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 10:44 AM
We needed a youth movement, but I don't agree with the "total" part.

A mix of vet. and youth is what every team needs. Always playing for today, yet looking toward the future.

that sounds like the Carl Peterson method to me.

I think that when you reasonably believe that you will suck that you need to go with all young guys.

if you have a competitive team, then you can sign some older free agents to fill the holes.

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 10:48 AM
They are stop gap players to fill voids from where Herm failed to address those spots properly..

Herm failed, Pioli and Haley are patching it to try and make it work. He left this team so full of holes, it will take 3 years to address everything Herm tried to address and EPICALLY FAILED!

why not try to fill them now??? is engram or thomas going to be here next year? why wait?

that's my point, why not try to find a guy that can fill those spots that could have a future and then you may have one less hole to fill or maybe even a little depth if you have to upgrade.

Reerun_KC
05-27-2009, 10:49 AM
why not try to fill them now??? is engram or thomas going to be here next year? why wait?

that's my point, why not try to find a guy that can fill those spots that could have a future and then you may have one less hole to fill or maybe even a little depth if you have to upgrade.

Where are you going to get those players? off the street?

Buehler445
05-27-2009, 10:52 AM
Dude, kcbubb, this team was a giant shit sandwich. The vets are not here to make a superbowl run. They were brought in totemporarily fill holes until we can get a building block or two in here. Looking at who else they could have had, in most cases (except maybe Engram) you can see that they wanted a couple vets with leadership than some worthless Sammy Parker-esque scrub that we could have brought in. They're both unlikely to be around after next year anyway.
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MIAdragon
05-27-2009, 10:52 AM
Engram is 36.

Bradley was a street free agent that has shown that he has the ability to contribute and possibly be our #2 receiver.

and spend major time on the DL

HemiEd
05-27-2009, 10:53 AM
The best way is somehwere in the middle.

You need a good mix of youth and experience.

You need vets who know how to prepare, who understand the game, who serve as mentors and examples for the kids you bring in.

But you have to always be looking for young guys that can repace the vets as their skills diminish.

The Steelers serve as the best example of the way things should work.

And Herman ****ing Edwards can choke on Donkey balls.I agree, and furthermore, you don't need existing pro bowl veterans, from a loser, that are setting bad examples.
You need guys that are winners, have won, and expect to win.

It is not easy to break the losing mentality, but I think Pioli is doing it the best way.

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 10:55 AM
Where are you going to get those players? off the street?

Pioli is supposed to be "THE TALENT EVALUATOR". Shouldn't he be able to find a possible MLB in the 3-4 scheme or a #3 wide receiver to replace Thomas and Engram???

What about the guy we drafted, Quinten at WR?

And there have been several undrafted LBs that have had success in the 3-4. I thought that is why we got Pioli. Shouldn't he have an eye for the diamond in the rough???

Micjones
05-27-2009, 10:56 AM
The best way is somehwere in the middle.

You need a good mix of youth and experience.

You need vets who know how to prepare, who understand the game, who serve as mentors and examples for the kids you bring in.

But you have to always be looking for young guys that can repace the vets as their skills diminish.

The Steelers serve as the best example of the way things should work.

And Herman fucking Edwards can choke on Donkey balls.

FTW!

the Talking Can
05-27-2009, 10:57 AM
chiefs fans need to take a nap....

milkman
05-27-2009, 10:58 AM
why not try to fill them now??? is engram or thomas going to be here next year? why wait?

that's my point, why not try to find a guy that can fill those spots that could have a future and then you may have one less hole to fill or maybe even a little depth if you have to upgrade.

Because you don't have young players to fill those holes.

6th, 7th round draft picks and UDFAs are in those rounds and on the street for a reason.

Hitting on those players is not common place.

If a Bryant Johnston or Wes Dacus turn out to be better players than Mike Vrabel and Zach Thomas, they'll earn their place on the field.

The entire premise of your thread is a fucking fantasy.

JFC.

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 10:59 AM
Dude, kcbubb, this team was a giant shit sandwich. The vets are not here to make a superbowl run. They were brought in totemporarily fill holes until we can get a building block or two in here. Looking at who else they could have had, in most cases (except maybe Engram) you can see that they wanted a couple vets with leadership than some worthless Sammy Parker-esque scrub that we could have brought in. They're both unlikely to be around after next year anyway.
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I think I responded to this with....

why not try to fill them now??? is engram or thomas going to be here next year? why wait?

that's my point, why not try to find a guy that can fill those spots that could have a future and then you may have one less hole to fill or maybe even a little depth if you have to upgrade.

DaKCMan AP
05-27-2009, 10:59 AM
Pioli is supposed to be "THE TALENT EVALUATOR". Shouldn't he be able to find a possible MLB in the 3-4 scheme or a #3 wide receiver to replace Thomas and Engram???

What about the guy we drafted, Quinten at WR?

And there have been several undrafted LBs that have had success in the 3-4. I thought that is why we got Pioli. Shouldn't he have an eye for the diamond in the rough???

LMAO

keg in kc
05-27-2009, 11:01 AM
One major problem with your "throw the young guys in" scenario is that player development is not a one-year process, especially with day 2 and undrafted players.

ChiTown
05-27-2009, 11:01 AM
I'll assume this was kcbubb's attempt at humor.........

DaKCMan AP
05-27-2009, 11:02 AM
I'll assume this was kcbubb's attempt at humor.........

See.. another vote for the 'kcbubb is dumb and DaKCMan AP is Awesome' option. Neglecting to include it in the poll is criminal!

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 11:03 AM
Because you don't have young players to fill those holes.

6th, 7th round draft picks and UDFAs are in those rounds and on the street for a reason.

Hitting on those players is not common place.

If a Bryant Johnston or Wes Dacus turn out to be better players than Mike Vrabel and Zach Thomas, they'll earn their place on the field.

The entire premise of your thread is a ****ing fantasy.

JFC.

The odds are slim that's true. But those older players won't be on the team next year anyway.

I would rather take a chance with a younger guy. If he sucks, and you cut him then that this same result that you have with Engram or Thomas.

The roster is the same. With a bad young player or an old vet. Both are probably not on the team the next year.

If he is decent, then you have some depth and on the long shot that he is James Harrison then you hit a home run.

DaKCMan AP
05-27-2009, 11:05 AM
The odds are slim that's true. But those older players won't be on the team next year anyway.

I would rather take a chance with a younger guy. If he sucks, and you cut him then that this same result that you have with Engram or Thomas.

The roster is the same. With a bad young player or an old vet. Both are probably not on the team the next year.

If he is decent, then you have some depth and on the long shot that he is James Harrison then you hit a home run.

You. Just. Don't. Get. It.

Go read Patriot Reign (I'm making a large assumption that you can read) and maybe you'll start to understand, but I'm not optimistic that you will.

BTW, James Harrison sat on the bench for 4 years in Pittsburgh before starting in 2007.

milkman
05-27-2009, 11:09 AM
The odds are slim that's true. But those older players won't be on the team next year anyway.

I would rather take a chance with a younger guy. If he sucks, and you cut him then that this same result that you have with Engram or Thomas.

The roster is the same. With a bad young player or an old vet. Both are probably not on the team the next year.

If he is decent, then you have some depth and on the long shot that he is James Harrison then you hit a home run.

And the odds that an UDFA is going to make your roster is almost the same as the odds that Mike Vrabel will be on this team in 2012.

You might get one or two UDFA that can actually play, but if they can't play, you are hurting your team even more by not having players on your roster today that can play.

This is just fucking too ridiculous to even argue about.

CoMoChief
05-27-2009, 11:10 AM
If you're in a transitional period with coaching scheme's etc, you need stop gap players. Not everything can be fixed via draft. Having that said you need to build through the draft and draft well. I don't think this season's draft is THE draft to build around, sadly. Next season's draft is going to be a HUGE defensive draft. I'm excited about that.

beach tribe
05-27-2009, 11:12 AM
You don't piss seasons away in today's NFL. It instills a losing culture in your franchise. WINNING breeds Winning. You can bet your ass Haley, and Pioli are going to try and win as many games as possible this season. You want to know why?? We have players on this team who have experienced a 4 win, then a 2 win season.
A 6-7 win season would be a HUGE boost to these guys egos, and send them into the next season feeling as though they can build on that, and improve even more.
None of these players had any faith in Herm, or this team. Except Brian Waters. Herm's yes man, and the fake ass leader that he is.

ALSO. they don't want to be picking that high ever again. Nobody does until the rookie contracts situation is fixed.

Raised On Riots
05-27-2009, 11:14 AM
This poll is flawed. It assumes Herm had a method.

Raised On Riots
05-27-2009, 11:15 AM
You don't piss seasons away in today's NFL. It instills a losing culture in your franchise. WINNING breeds Winning. You can bet your ass Haley, and Pioli are going to try and win as many games as possible this season. You want to know why?? We have players on this team who have experienced a 4 win, then a 2 win season.
A 6-7 win season would be a HUGE boost to these guys egos, and send them into the next season feeling as though they can build on that, and improve even more.
None of these players had any faith in Herm, or this team. Except Brian Waters. Herm's yes man, and the fake ass leader that he is.

ALSO. they don't want to be picking that high ever again. Nobody does until the rookie contracts situation is fixed.

Excellent, excellent post, BT.

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 11:15 AM
You. Just. Don't. Get. It.

Go read Patriot Reign (I'm making a large assumption that you can read) and maybe you'll start to understand, but I'm not optimistic that you will.

BTW, James Harrison sat on the bench for 4 years in Pittsburgh before starting in 2007.

Harrison was a street free agent in 2004.

I would rather sign a guy like him who was 27 in 2004 and take a chance.

What's not to understand??? This isn't rocket science. I know it's a long shot. And I know that the Chiefs may suck in the process, but you can't say that playing time isn't important in developing players.

But you really have no chance with an old player. A long shot is better than no chance.

DaKCMan AP
05-27-2009, 11:17 AM
Harrison was a street free agent in 2004.


He was an UDFA with Pittsburgh in 2002 and then brought back as a backup in 2004 and remained a backup for 4 years. What you're wanting to do is bring in some nobody and start them immediately.

DaWolf
05-27-2009, 11:17 AM
Just because a guy is young doesn't mean the guy is good. This is why we got into the hole we are in today. If the young guy we have can beat out the veteran, great. Otherwise, why not have veterans there to challenge and push the young guys, especially the ones that suck but you don't know it yet?

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 11:19 AM
You don't piss seasons away in today's NFL. It instills a losing culture in your franchise. WINNING breeds Winning. You can bet your ass Haley, and Pioli are going to try and win as many games as possible this season. You want to know why?? We have players on this team who have experienced a 4 win, then a 2 win season.
A 6-7 win season would be a HUGE boost to these guys egos, and send them into the next season feeling as though they can build on that, and improve even more.
None of these players had any faith in Herm, or this team. Except Brian Waters. Herm's yes man, and the fake ass leader that he is.

ALSO. they don't want to be picking that high ever again. Nobody does until the rookie contracts situation is fixed.

I really don't see how that is any different from what we had in Carl Peterson.

Get a veteran QB. And sign a bunch of vets to fill your holes. How is that not just like Carl Peterson's strategy for years????

Raised On Riots
05-27-2009, 11:21 AM
I really don't see how that is any different from what we had in Carl Peterson.

Get a veteran QB. And sign a bunch of vets to fill your holes. How is that not just like Carl Peterson's strategy for years????

They don't have or get 5-year contracts. They are stop gaps, not long term solutions.

Dave Lane
05-27-2009, 11:26 AM
why not try to fill them now??? is engram or thomas going to be here next year? why wait?

that's my point, why not try to find a guy that can fill those spots that could have a future and then you may have one less hole to fill or maybe even a little depth if you have to upgrade.

Seriously, are you being ironic, obtuse or a moran? THEY DID TRY TO FILL THOSE SPOTS!

You just don't like who they choose. Put your own list together of who they should have taken based on who is available on the street right now.

beach tribe
05-27-2009, 11:27 AM
I really don't see how that is any different from what we had in Carl Peterson.

Get a veteran QB. And sign a bunch of vets to fill your holes. How is that not just like Carl Peterson's strategy for years????

Peterson HAD to sign FAs to keep the team competitive because he missed on so many draft picks. RIGHT NOW we are completely devoid of talent...........because peterson missed on so many draft picks.
We have no choice but to sign veteran FAs if we expect to win more than 2 fricken games. Once pioli has a few drafts to fill out the roster, we will be using FA for the final pieces. Not to cover our ass because none of our draft picks are even on an NFL roster, much less starting on our team.

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 11:32 AM
Seriously, are you being ironic, obtuse or a moran? THEY DID TRY TO FILL THOSE SPOTS!

You just don't like who they choose. Put your own list together of who they should have taken based on who is available on the street right now.

I don't mind them signing free agents. I just don't like them signing guys that are that old and won't help the team win next year because they have no chance of even being on the team.

Buehler445
05-27-2009, 11:36 AM
I don't mind them signing free agents. I just don't like them signing guys that are that old and won't help the team win next year because they have no chance of even being on the team.

I'd venture a guess that most guys on the street right now won't be on the team either.
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Mr. Krab
05-27-2009, 11:37 AM
You need some experience until you have a young guy step up.

Just Passin' By
05-27-2009, 12:04 PM
I don't mind them signing free agents. I just don't like them signing guys that are that old and won't help the team win next year because they have no chance of even being on the team.

So you were all for dumping Gonzalez then, right?

Rain Man
05-27-2009, 12:07 PM
Whatever Pioli wants, I want.

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 02:34 PM
So you were all for dumping Gonzalez then, right?

under the right circumstances, I would have been for trading Tony. But I don't think a 2nd next year was enough.

tooge
05-27-2009, 02:35 PM
They say Herms methods are unsound

Pasta Giant Meatball
05-27-2009, 02:51 PM
under the right circumstances, I would have been for trading Tony. But I don't think a 2nd next year was enough.

That is the most you are going to get for a tight end that age. Even one as good as Tony.

Anyway, I agree with signing the stop gap vets and letting them play a year and replace them with superior younger talent next year. You can't fix all the holes in one offseason. Vrabel, Thomas, Goff, and Engram aren't going to be keeping young super studs off the field.

38yrsfan
05-27-2009, 02:52 PM
Edwards was one of the worst coaches the Chiefs ever had. His first season was a carry over from better times. IMO

FAX
05-27-2009, 03:08 PM
Herm didn't really have what you call a "method". The Chiefs were absolutely forced to go young when Herm arrived. Heck, he didn't even start the "rebuild" soon enough. Not only that, but when faced with the decision to put an old vs. young quarterback on the field, we got Humpty DumpedOnHisAss and the Amazing Nerf Ball Of Mystery.

If anything, Herm's "method" was to endlessly BS everybody until their eyes glazed over, their drool turned blue, and they started mumbling nursery rhymes. And when that stopped working, he turned to outright lies.

If he weren't such a fantastic game day coach, I'd say the guy was kind of a failure.

FAX

Pioli Zombie
05-27-2009, 03:17 PM
Yes, Herms way was the best. He just needed more time.

I just spit my drink up m$y nose I was laughing so hard
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Just Passin' By
05-27-2009, 03:38 PM
under the right circumstances, I would have been for trading Tony. But I don't think a 2nd next year was enough.

Then you're a hypocrite. Gonzalez was old and was not going to be helping the team win in 3 years. Since the Chiefs aren't going to win this year, he needed to be gotten rid of so that the team could bring in a young player.

Your logic, not mine.

wild1
05-27-2009, 03:45 PM
Herm's method: from 10-6 to 2-14 in three years flat.

DeezNutz
05-27-2009, 03:47 PM
I would really rather see Brian Johnston play rather than Vrabel.

Pioli says, "Fail."

LaChapelle
05-27-2009, 03:54 PM
Confidence is too big of a factor in a pro athlete's sucess to waste on surrounding them with lottery picks. Two to three seasons of celler dwelling could be the difference between pro bowl and average to bust.

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 04:12 PM
Then you're a hypocrite. Gonzalez was old and was not going to be helping the team win in 3 years. Since the Chiefs aren't going to win this year, he needed to be gotten rid of so that the team could bring in a young player.

Your logic, not mine.

the logic behind it would be that Tony would be different than other players mentioned bc he could have such a huge effect on the QB.

Tony is in a different class than these other players and he could help the team by helping develop the QB. Developing the QB is something that could help down the road.

milkman
05-27-2009, 04:16 PM
the logic behind it would be that Tony would be different than other players mentioned bc he could have such a huge effect on the QB.

Tony is in a different class than these other players and he could help the team by helping develop the QB. Developing the QB is something that could help down the road.

JPB is right.

You are a hypocrite.

kcbubb
05-27-2009, 04:19 PM
JPB is right.

You are a hypocrite.

ummm... on somethings yes. on this topic. no.

If Tony could help bring Cassel along, it would help this team three years from now.

Who is Zach Thomas going to help three years from now??? give me a break.

milkman
05-27-2009, 04:23 PM
ummm... on somethings yes. on this topic. no.

If Tony could help bring Cassel along, it would help this team three years from now.

Who is Zach Thomas going to help three years from now??? give me a break.

He's going to help the young guys on defense transition to a new scheme and help them learn how to prepare to play in the NFL, as is Mike Vrabel.

The fact is, those guys will do more to help the young guys grow on defense than Tony would have helped Matt Cassel.

Tony is a selfish player who would have been unhappy with the fact that Cassel will be spreading the ball around.

Just Passin' By
05-27-2009, 04:24 PM
ummm... on somethings yes. on this topic. no.

If Tony could help bring Cassel along, it would help this team three years from now.

Who is Zach Thomas going to help three years from now??? give me a break.

Are you really going to claim that there are no young defenders on the Chiefs for guys like Thomas and Vrabel to bring along?

the Talking Can
05-27-2009, 04:27 PM
I really don't see how that is any different from what we had in Carl Peterson.

Get a veteran QB. And sign a bunch of vets to fill your holes. How is that not just like Carl Peterson's strategy for years????

:banghead:

thought is not your specialty, i see....have you even tried to answer your own question?

DeezNutz
05-27-2009, 04:30 PM
They say Herms methods are unsound

"Unsound methods!" he said.

The horror. The horror.

TheGuardian
05-27-2009, 04:36 PM
Wow. Talk about dumb.

Who is Zach Thomas going to help? Maybe you should ask Tim Grunhardt, who said that Mike Webster, who was on his last legs and only played in KC for a couple of years, taught him more about playing center than any coach he had.

Zach is going to help whatever player wants to become great. To help him learn how to watch film, how to prepare in the offseason, how to read offenses, how to take proper angles. It's amazing to me that I have read from so many fans that you just "go young and hope the young guy works out". Does anyone live the rest of their lives this way?

"well I'll forgo getting an inspection done on this house. It's new, I just figured I'd buy a new one and well, hope it all works out."

If a young guy can't beat out an old guy, then what does that say? The young guy either isn't ready, or he's not the future at that position. The way Pioli is doing it, is to make sure the best guys are on the field, rather than the youngest/oldest guys are on the field. You do that by filling in weak spots with PROVEN players, then drafting guys that can learn under them. What this does is create a lasting foundation for a team having high quality players.

And I thought kcbubb was dumb for arguing with me on the schematic principles of this defense. Goodness!

JASONSAUTO
05-27-2009, 09:25 PM
.
If he weren't such a fantastic game day coach, I'd say the guy was kind of a failure.

FAX

I just spit my drink up m$y nose I was laughing so hardPosted via Mobile Device

the same thing happened to me upon reading faxy's line

Pioli Zombie
05-27-2009, 09:32 PM
Yes. If I wanted one coach in a clutch end of game situation to make the right decision it would be Herm Edwards. clock management and use of time outs especially.
Posted via Mobile Device

JASONSAUTO
05-27-2009, 09:36 PM
Yes. If I wanted one coach in a clutch end of game situation to make the right decision it would be Herm Edwards. clock management and use of time outs especially.
Posted via Mobile Device

damn, again? the pop burns

Pioli Zombie
05-27-2009, 09:45 PM
You play to fuck up the game!
Posted via Mobile Device

Halfcan
05-27-2009, 10:05 PM
Clark is going CHEAP this year to replinish the money he coughed up to renovate the stadium.

It would be nice if the Jackson County Tax payers had such a deal.

Just Passin' By
05-28-2009, 01:15 AM
To illustrate the point about how veterans can help a team, I thought I'd post a passage from an article involving Dawkins and the Broncos:

But Barrett said there’s certainly still learning going on. For him and the other defensive backs in particular, some of that learning has come from Brian Dawkins.

“I just try to take in little things,” Barrett said. “You don’t even have to ask questions, but through his actions, through his demeanor you can pretty much pick up on a lot of stuff.”

http://blog.denverbroncos.com/denverbroncos/barrett-and-prater-kick-off-camp/

Earthling
05-28-2009, 01:37 AM
To illustrate the point about how veterans can help a team, I thought I'd post a passage from an article involving Dawkins and the Broncos:



http://blog.denverbroncos.com/denverbroncos/barrett-and-prater-kick-off-camp/

Yep.

Mecca
05-28-2009, 02:22 AM
Herm was a shitty coach but the love of veterans is not really a great way to build your team, Vermiel did that and look where it left us.

Just Passin' By
05-28-2009, 02:24 AM
Herm was a shitty coach but the love of veterans is not really a great way to build your team, Vermiel did that and look where it left us.

Yeah, it's really killed the Patriots this decade.

beach tribe
05-28-2009, 06:51 AM
Herm was a shitty coach but the love of veterans is not really a great way to build your team, Vermiel did that and look where it left us.

It would have been fine if we would have hit on a few draft picks. That's the key to everything. The reason we ended up with no talent, has nothing to do with the fact that we had veteran players. It's because we picked guys like Sims, and Siavii.

Mecca
05-28-2009, 06:58 AM
They also had 0 long term planning skills, everyone knew alot of those guys could retire at any time and they continued to sink money and picks into the defense.

Raised On Riots
05-28-2009, 08:03 AM
You play to fuck up the game!
Posted via Mobile Device

You PLAY to win the draft!

JD10367
05-28-2009, 08:59 AM
Not so much valuable leadership as experienced players to fill numerous holes. There's going to be a lot of roster turnover from 2009 to 2011 and I don't think you just throw bodies out there and hope you get lucky. The mentality of how to build a team is different now than it was a year ago, too, they're as (or more) concerned with cohesiveness and the "team concept" as they are with sheer talent. Personally, I think this is the way to go.

Although I didn't vote in the poll, since I'm a Patriots fan, I would've voted "older". Pioli, when in New England, was skilled at finding older players who were either underutilized by their teams (Mike Vrabel) or supposedly "washed up" (Rodney Harrison, Junior Seau) and got some mileage out of them. Not to mention finding supposed "problem children" looking for a career revitalization (Corey Dillon, Randy Moss).

Whenever Belichick makes a move, I ask myself the simple question, "Is the guy he wants to put out there better than another option?" Yeah, a guy like Seau might be 89 years old and slow as a tortoise, but he still might be better than the young clueless guy who shows nothing in practices and training camp.

JD10367
05-28-2009, 09:10 AM
Yeah, it's really killed the Patriots this decade.

Ayup. In 2000 the Pats signed, as free agents, Joe Andruzzi, Bobby Hamilton, and Otis Smith. In 2001 they added Je'Rod Cherry, Mike Compton, Damon Huard, Larry Izzo, David Patten, Roman Phifer, Anthony Pleasant, Antowain Smith, Chris Sullivan, Mike Vrabel, and Ken Walter. They all contributed towards the first Super Bowl win.

Sometimes, with a young team, you gotta throw a lot of sh*t at the wall and see what sticks. So don't fret too much if a pick-up doesn't work out: the key is that they be CHEAP pick-ups, who won't ruin your cap for seasons to come. Save the big money for the big names (like the Pats did with Rosevelt Colvin and Adalius Thomas) and hope to hit on a cheap older guy or underutilized backup.

And don't fret too much if Pioli signs guys you haven't heard much about. For example, the Pats just signed LB Paris Lenon. He's 31, and he played for the crap-ass Lions. I'm sure they didn't break the bank for the guy. But he led his team in tackles, so I won't be surprised if and when New Englanders go from "Who the #$^& is he?" to "Omigod I love this guy!". Those are the kind of pick-ups Belichick and Pioli made together and hopefully the kind Pioli will make for you guys: the Wes Welkers of the world, who are just waiting for an opportunity.

Sure-Oz
05-28-2009, 09:13 AM
You should be banned for life for even thinking that Herms dipshittery was the best...

6 wins in 2 years? 15 in 3?

You have to be ****ing kidding right?

He's working for ESPN for a reason

LaChapelle
05-28-2009, 09:49 AM
He's working for ESPN for a reason

The reviews are not good. But they are local.

SenselessChiefsFan
05-28-2009, 09:51 AM
I loved the way Herm wanted to build a team. It sounds great to build a young team like, similar to the way the Colts were built, and win 10+ games a season for the next decade and squeeze in a Lombardi or two.

It clearly wasn't working... at least yet.... would it have worked? Who's to say? I don't think so. I think that what many, including myself, lost sight of is that you need older guys to show the younger guys the way.

Eventually, five years from now, I would like to see the Chiefs with their own culture, and see them drafting and developing their own players. So that, like the Colts, the Chiefs can field 22 starters who are all homegrown. I guess 21, assuming that Cassel pans out.

If the Chiefs are signing stop gaps five years from now, then Pioli is failing.

Raised On Riots
05-28-2009, 10:10 AM
I loved the way Herm wanted to build a team. It sounds great to build a young team like, similar to the way the Colts were built, and win 10+ games a season for the next decade and squeeze in a Lombardi or two.

It clearly wasn't working... at least yet.... would it have worked? Who's to say? I don't think so. I think that what many, including myself, lost sight of is that you need older guys to show the younger guys the way.

Eventually, five years from now, I would like to see the Chiefs with their own culture, and see them drafting and developing their own players. So that, like the Colts, the Chiefs can field 22 starters who are all homegrown. I guess 21, assuming that Cassel pans out.

If the Chiefs are signing stop gaps five years from now, then Pioli is failing.

Take five hundred and eighty-six point two:
Vets....not.....permanent.
Vets....no....get.....big....contract.
Can't....build....entire.....team.....in....two.....seasons.

And CUT! That's a wrap.

kcbubb
05-28-2009, 11:20 AM
Wow. Talk about dumb.

Who is Zach Thomas going to help? Maybe you should ask Tim Grunhardt, who said that Mike Webster, who was on his last legs and only played in KC for a couple of years, taught him more about playing center than any coach he had.

Zach is going to help whatever player wants to become great. To help him learn how to watch film, how to prepare in the offseason, how to read offenses, how to take proper angles. It's amazing to me that I have read from so many fans that you just "go young and hope the young guy works out". Does anyone live the rest of their lives this way?


I agree with the Mike Webster point about Grunhard because they play the same position. And let's face it, Derrick Johnson is not a young guy anymore. He has been in the league for 4 years.

So, what young guy is Thomas or Engram going to teach??? This whole teaching and leadership thing is entirely overrated for player development unless the player is an understudy like Cottam was with Tony Gonzalez last year.

Please say something like Zach Thomas and Bobby Engram are going to teach Tyson Jackson how to play the game... That may sound good to some people who have never played football or like to read newspapers. But in reality that doesn't happen.

TheGuardian
05-28-2009, 12:52 PM
I agree with the Mike Webster point about Grunhard because they play the same position. And let's face it, Derrick Johnson is not a young guy anymore. He has been in the league for 4 years.

So, what young guy is Thomas or Engram going to teach??? This whole teaching and leadership thing is entirely overrated for player development unless the player is an understudy like Cottam was with Tony Gonzalez last year.

Please say something like Zach Thomas and Bobby Engram are going to teach Tyson Jackson how to play the game... That may sound good to some people who have never played football or like to read newspapers. But in reality that doesn't happen.

If it doesn't happen in reality then why do you have guys like Tim Grunhardt saying it does? Why do you have young guys like Meachem in New Orleans saying that he went to David Patton and basically lived with him in the offseason to learn how to play, and watch film, and how to prepare? The fact is, it does happen, but only if you have players that are willing to take advantage of it.

If Derrick Johnson doesn't want to learn from Vrabel and Thomas, then you're right those guys will have given a year or maybe two of service and left. But generally you have at least a few motivated guys on the team that want to learn. And when you're a young guy on a team that has not won very much the fact is, you don't know what it takes week in and week out to prepare to actually win on a consistent basis. Thomas, Vrabel, and Engram all come from places where they won a lot more than they lost. They have been in play off games, Super bowls, etc and won. We don't have anyone on this team that can show these guys what kind of effort it takes to get there, and what kind of attitude you need to have as a team to become a champion.

So the fact is, you can't win with a completely young roster because those guys don't know what it takes to win, and then when they lose over and over and over again, losing becomes a fact of life. It's why some franchises can't get over the losing hump, because they never changed the culture. That culture gets changed by players who know how to win, and what it takes to get there. Young guys don't know how to get there unless the vet leaders take them along. That sir, is a fact.

Chiefspants
05-28-2009, 01:10 PM
I know, I cry myself to sleep every night, we barely gave Herm's 23 year plan a chance. God, Where we could have been in just 20 more years.

Pioli Zombie
05-28-2009, 01:22 PM
Ayup. In 2000 the Pats signed, as free agents, Joe Andruzzi, Bobby Hamilton, and Otis Smith. In 2001 they added Je'Rod Cherry, Mike Compton, Damon Huard, Larry Izzo, David Patten, Roman Phifer, Anthony Pleasant, Antowain Smith, Chris Sullivan, Mike Vrabel, and Ken Walter. They all contributed towards the first Super Bowl win.

Sometimes, with a young team, you gotta throw a lot of sh*t at the wall and see what sticks. So don't fret too much if a pick-up doesn't work out: the key is that they be CHEAP pick-ups, who won't ruin your cap for seasons to come. Save the big money for the big names (like the Pats did with Rosevelt Colvin and Adalius Thomas) and hope to hit on a cheap older guy or underutilized backup.

And don't fret too much if Pioli signs guys you haven't heard much about. For example, the Pats just signed LB Paris Lenon. He's 31, and he played for the crap-ass Lions. I'm sure they didn't break the bank for the guy. But he led his team in tackles, so I won't be surprised if and when New Englanders go from "Who the #$^& is he?" to "Omigod I love this guy!". Those are the kind of pick-ups Belichick and Pioli made together and hopefully the kind Pioli will make for you guys: the Wes Welkers of the world, who are just waiting for an opportunity.
Post of the month!!
Posted via Mobile Device

BarrySPAMAID
05-28-2009, 01:53 PM
I think if you are going to infuse your team with Veteran players, they need to be of the leadership by example caliper. I think this is what Pioli, and Haley are trying to do. Bring in players that lead by example. Were still young folks.

milkman
05-28-2009, 02:55 PM
I agree with the Mike Webster point about Grunhard because they play the same position. And let's face it, Derrick Johnson is not a young guy anymore. He has been in the league for 4 years.

So, what young guy is Thomas or Engram going to teach??? This whole teaching and leadership thing is entirely overrated for player development unless the player is an understudy like Cottam was with Tony Gonzalez last year.

Please say something like Zach Thomas and Bobby Engram are going to teach Tyson Jackson how to play the game... That may sound good to some people who have never played football or like to read newspapers. But in reality that doesn't happen.

I've reached the inevitable conclusion that you are a real dumbass.

Raised On Riots
05-28-2009, 03:10 PM
Post of the month!!
Posted via Mobile Device

Wait a minute, does this mean Huard's coming back?
:cuss: Damnit Scott!

I think if you are going to infuse your team with Veteran players, they need to be of the leadership by example caliper. I think this is what Pioli, and Haley are trying to do. Bring in players that lead by example. Were still young folks.

Bar' steps up and in to the Gauntlet! :clap: Welcome to Hell my friend. ;)

BarrySPAMAID
05-28-2009, 03:18 PM
Wait a minute, does this mean Huard's coming back?
:cuss: Damnit Scott!



Bar' steps up and in to the Gauntlet! :clap: Welcome to Hell my friend. ;)

ROFL

kcbubb
05-29-2009, 09:19 AM
If it doesn't happen in reality then why do you have guys like Tim Grunhardt saying it does? Why do you have young guys like Meachem in New Orleans saying that he went to David Patton and basically lived with him in the offseason to learn how to play, and watch film, and how to prepare? The fact is, it does happen, but only if you have players that are willing to take advantage of it.

If Derrick Johnson doesn't want to learn from Vrabel and Thomas, then you're right those guys will have given a year or maybe two of service and left. But generally you have at least a few motivated guys on the team that want to learn. And when you're a young guy on a team that has not won very much the fact is, you don't know what it takes week in and week out to prepare to actually win on a consistent basis. Thomas, Vrabel, and Engram all come from places where they won a lot more than they lost. They have been in play off games, Super bowls, etc and won. We don't have anyone on this team that can show these guys what kind of effort it takes to get there, and what kind of attitude you need to have as a team to become a champion.

So the fact is, you can't win with a completely young roster because those guys don't know what it takes to win, and then when they lose over and over and over again, losing becomes a fact of life. It's why some franchises can't get over the losing hump, because they never changed the culture. That culture gets changed by players who know how to win, and what it takes to get there. Young guys don't know how to get there unless the vet leaders take them along. That sir, is a fact.

You obviously don't read to well. I said that a player can learn from a vet that plays the same position.

The examples that you've given with Grunhard and Meachem are with players that play the same position.

My point is that you guys act like Bobby Engram is going to be a leader for Tyson Jackson. Not going to happen.

And as far as the culture... You are buying more into the company line than I am. You obviously believe all the hype of bring the vet in to lead and change players attitude. I don't buy into all that crap. These guys are pros. They should have plenty of motivation. And Zach and Engram aren't even the best at their position on the team. And how is Vrabel leading by not showing up??? He doesn't want to be here. He would much rather play for a team that can compete to win now.

And why not sign a vet that's a little younger??? Why do they all have to be so freakin old. Why are many of you so in love with old players? There have been other veteran free agents available that are productive and are 30 and under.

The real reason is that these guys are cheap and fans still like them. They can still play some what productively and get by with them and hope they draft to replace them. And that plan may work out fine..... 3 or 4 years from now.... and maybe it won't...

I'd rather take a chance on a player like Matt Jones than waste time with Bobby Engram. I know he's a risk, but at least he's got some upside. What upside do we have with Engram?

And I would rather have kept Pat Thomas than sign Zach Thomas for the same reason. Pat is young and has upside. He obviously needs to improve, but he also obviously has more of a future than Zach.

kcbubb
05-29-2009, 09:21 AM
I've reached the inevitable conclusion that I am a real dumbass.

I know. I agree with you.

Everyone doesn't like old players as much as you do. Leadership doesn't have to be ancient. Why not at least bring in some younger free agents???

DaKCMan AP
05-29-2009, 09:28 AM
I know. I agree with you.

Everyone doesn't like old players as much as you do. Leadership doesn't have to be ancient. Why not at least bring in some younger free agents???

They've acquired 5 guys over 30 and 7 guys under 30, numbnuts.

kcbubb
05-29-2009, 09:31 AM
They've acquired 5 guys over 30 and 7 guys under 30, numbnuts.

And which ones do you expect will play??? I'm talking about signing players who will play. All of the old guys that we have signed will start and take up a lot of valuable playing time that could be used to develop a player.

TheGuardian
05-29-2009, 09:31 AM
You obviously don't read to well. I said that a player can learn from a vet that plays the same position.

The examples that you've given with Grunhard and Meachem are with players that play the same position.

My point is that you guys act like Bobby Engram is going to be a leader for Tyson Jackson. Not going to happen.

No YOU said that. I never said that Bobby Engram is going to help Tyson Jackson. YOU implied that.


And as far as the culture... You are buying more into the company line than I am. You obviously believe all the hype of bring the vet in to lead and change players attitude. I don't buy into all that crap. These guys are pros. They should have plenty of motivation. And Zach and Engram aren't even the best at their position on the team. And how is Vrabel leading by not showing up??? He doesn't want to be here. He would much rather play for a team that can compete to win now.

And why not sign a vet that's a little younger??? Why do they all have to be so freakin old. Why are many of you so in love with old players? There have been other veteran free agents available that are productive and are 30 and under.

The real reason is that these guys are cheap and fans still like them. They can still play some what productively and get by with them and hope they draft to replace them. And that plan may work out fine..... 3 or 4 years from now.... and maybe it won't...

I'd rather take a chance on a player like Matt Jones than waste time with Bobby Engram. I know he's a risk, but at least he's got some upside. What upside do we have with Engram?

And I would rather have kept Pat Thomas than sign Zach Thomas for the same reason. Pat is young and has upside. He obviously needs to improve, but he also obviously has more of a future than Zach.

That's because you've proven you are dumb.

DaKCMan AP
05-29-2009, 09:33 AM
And which ones do you expect will play??? I'm talking about signing players who will play. All of the old guys that we have signed will start and take up a lot of valuable playing time that could be used to develop a player.

I expect Matt Cassel, Tony Curtis, Terrance Copper and Travis Daniels to all receive PT.

Raised On Riots
05-29-2009, 10:02 AM
And why not sign a vet that's a little younger??? Why do they all have to be so freakin old. Why are many of you so in love with old players? There have been other veteran free agents available that are productive and are 30 and under.




Because they DO want to build their own team/identity through the draft, but right now it's about establishing a whole new method and mindset to EVERY aspect of what we eventually want to accomplish.
If these vets were getting Carl Peterson "sweetheart deals" to the tune of 4 and 5 year contracts, then we would have something to worry about.

These vets are here basically to set examples and to help transition to a winning mindset.

kcbubb
05-29-2009, 10:07 AM
Because they DO want to build their own team/identity through the draft, but right now it's about establishing a whole new method and mindset to EVERY aspect of what we eventually want to accomplish.
If these vets were getting Carl Peterson "sweetheart deals" to the tune of 4 and 5 year contracts, then we would have something to worry about.

These vets are here basically to set examples and to help transition to a winning mindset.

I understand that. And I hope it works. But I would still rather sign some players that could have a future with the team.

Buehler445
05-29-2009, 10:11 AM
Because they DO want to build their own team/identity through the draft, but right now it's about establishing a whole new method and mindset to EVERY aspect of what we eventually want to accomplish.
If these vets were getting Carl Peterson "sweetheart deals" to the tune of 4 and 5 year contracts, then we would have something to worry about.

These vets are here basically to set examples and to help transition to a winning mindset.

That's something you never addressed, bubb, the difference in contracts between the Carl that we know is fail and the Pioli we hope is not fail.

Realistically, though, everything in life is maximized through moderation. If young guys were the correct answer, NOBODY would ever get a second contract. It's just that simple.

I would venture a guess that every team that has won the Super Bowl has a FA vet playing a role. It's not the end of the world. These guys aren't being brought in as building blocks for a run, they are bodies. And rather than just have schmucks that will be cut at the earliest possible convenience, he's trying to get a little more out of them.

And again, FUCK HERM. The only youth movement he was ever on was in Tampa. Dungy was running the show, and I doubt that all veterans were cut loose. Herm is a fucking toolbox. We should strive to NOT repeat any mistakes, including playing young POS's only because they are young.

FUCK HERM!
Posted via Mobile Device

BarrySPAMAID
05-29-2009, 10:33 AM
That's something you never addressed, bubb, the difference in contracts between the Carl that we know is fail and the Pioli we hope is not fail.

Realistically, though, everything in life is maximized through moderation. If young guys were the correct answer, NOBODY would ever get a second contract. It's just that simple.

I would venture a guess that every team that has won the Super Bowl has a FA vet playing a role. It's not the end of the world. These guys aren't being brought in as building blocks for a run, they are bodies. And rather than just have schmucks that will be cut at the earliest possible convenience, he's trying to get a little more out of them.

And again, **** HERM. The only youth movement he was ever on was in Tampa. Dungy was running the show, and I doubt that all veterans were cut loose. Herm is a ****ing toolbox. We should strive to NOT repeat any mistakes, including playing young POS's only because they are young.

**** HERM!
Posted via Mobile Device

God, I wish we could stop talking about Herm, but good points.

Raised On Riots
05-29-2009, 05:15 PM
God, I wish we could stop talking about Herm, but good points.

http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv252/raisedonriots/dragmetoherm-1.png

Reerun_KC
05-29-2009, 10:38 PM
That's something you never addressed, bubb, the difference in contracts between the Carl that we know is fail and the Pioli we hope is not fail.

Realistically, though, everything in life is maximized through moderation. If young guys were the correct answer, NOBODY would ever get a second contract. It's just that simple.

I would venture a guess that every team that has won the Super Bowl has a FA vet playing a role. It's not the end of the world. These guys aren't being brought in as building blocks for a run, they are bodies. And rather than just have schmucks that will be cut at the earliest possible convenience, he's trying to get a little more out of them.

And again, **** HERM. The only youth movement he was ever on was in Tampa. Dungy was running the show, and I doubt that all veterans were cut loose. Herm is a ****ing toolbox. We should strive to NOT repeat any mistakes, including playing young POS's only because they are young.

**** HERM!
Posted via Mobile Device

As always Little Big B, You are Money!

Reerun_KC
05-29-2009, 10:38 PM
http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv252/raisedonriots/dragmetoherm-1.png

ROFL ROFL

Dear God that is Awesome!

Raised On Riots
05-29-2009, 10:44 PM
ROFL ROFL

Dear God that is Awesome!

Thanks!:D

milkman
05-30-2009, 04:49 AM
I know. I agree with you.

Everyone doesn't like old players as much as you do. Leadership doesn't have to be ancient. Why not at least bring in some younger free agents???

Hey dumbass.

If you had been around for awhile you would know that I believe that you have to build the necleus of your team through the draft.

But you can not sumply play young players because they are young.

You have to find players that can. you know, actually play.

You say you would rather have a Pat Thomas than a Zach Thomas, because at least he has a future.

Well, you are a fucking idiot.

A player that sucks ass, whether young or old doesn't have a future, and Pat Thomas sucks ass.

KC Tattoo
05-30-2009, 03:10 PM
I vote to do it the Patriots way, its worked for them so it should work for us.


I like the younger players better & will root for them more, but Pioli knows best for this team and how to get us a Super Bowl Championship.

BarrySPAMAID
05-30-2009, 11:54 PM
I vote to do it the Patriots way, its worked for them so it should work for us.


I like the younger players better & will root for them more, but Pioli knows best for this team and how to get us a Super Bowl Championship.

It's not the Patriot way. It's gonna be more like the Steeler Way. Clark still runs the show. Carry on.

JD10367
05-30-2009, 11:56 PM
It's not the Patriot way. It's gonna be more like the Steeler Way. Clark still runs the show. Carry on.

Five of the last eight Super Bowls. Either way is probably an improvement. As long as it's not the Raider Way or the Lion Way. :)

milkman
05-31-2009, 08:23 AM
It's not the Patriot way. It's gonna be more like the Steeler Way. Clark still runs the show. Carry on.

Wrong.

Clark owns the show, but you know ther is no way that Scott Pioli took the job without some assurance that he would be given free rein to run the show.

And to this point, early in his rein, it looks much like the Patriot Way.

Raised On Riots
05-31-2009, 02:45 PM
Wrong.

Clark owns the show, but you know ther is no way that Scott Pioli took the job without some assurance that he would be given free rein to run the show.

And to this point, early in his rein, it looks much like the Patriot Way.


Mmm...this.

BarrySPAMAID
05-31-2009, 06:27 PM
Wrong.

Clark owns the show, but you know ther is no way that Scott Pioli took the job without some assurance that he would be given free rein to run the show.

And to this point, early in his rein, it looks much like the Patriot Way.

Fair enough. I just remember Clark talking alot about how he admired the Steelers. If I'm an owner of a franchise, and I hire a new GM, I tell them what I want. He does have free rein, I agree.

Buehler445
05-31-2009, 06:38 PM
Fair enough. I just remember Clark talking alot about how he admired the Steelers. If I'm an owner of a franchise, and I hire a new GM, I tell them what I want. He does have free rein, I agree.

Not me. If I'm an owner, I hire a motherfucker that will win me a championship. That's what I want. If I think I know better, I just be the owner/GM ala Jerry Jones.

BarrySPAMAID
05-31-2009, 10:50 PM
Not me. If I'm an owner, I hire a mother****er that will win me a championship. That's what I want. If I think I know better, I just be the owner/GM ala Jerry Jones.

Well, he did that in Pioli my brother. Clark hit a home run in getting Pioli.

And looking like the Steelers would be just fine and dandy with me.

Raised On Riots
05-31-2009, 11:04 PM
Not me. If I'm an owner, I hire a motherfucker that will win me a championship. That's what I want. If I think I know better, I just be the owner/GM ala Jerry Jones.

Maybe Jones will buy the Faihdahs when Al dies. We can only hope.

The Bad Guy
05-31-2009, 11:10 PM
Honestly, KCBubb has proven he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. Anyone, and I mean anyone, who feels that the "Herm Edwards way" was the right direction for this team, needs to off themselves with pills immediately.

Just because we signed older players to small contracts means jack shit.

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 09:22 AM
Honestly, KCBubb has proven he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. Anyone, and I mean anyone, who feels that the "Herm Edwards way" was the right direction for this team, needs to off themselves with pills immediately.

Just because we signed older players to small contracts means jack shit.

I guess the sharp tools want to have several players that are 33+ on this team that will not be on this team when it has a real chance to be competitive.

Say what you want about how those old players will lead or teach or whatever but the fact is, they won't be here when we get to a superbowl. I would rather take the risk of trying a young guy or at a minimum signing a younger free agent that has a chance to help the team long term.

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 09:26 AM
These vets are here basically to set examples and to help transition to a winning mindset.

How is Vrabel setting an example on how to transition to a winning mindset?

Brian Waters has been blasted on here repeatedly. The bottom line is Vrabel and Waters are both absent. Neither has shown up. Actions speak louder than words and they are saying the same thing.

I don't want to be here.

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 09:44 AM
That's something you never addressed, bubb, the difference in contracts between the Carl that we know is fail and the Pioli we hope is not fail. Posted via Mobile Device

You are correct that the long term consequences of these free agents is not as bad bc Pioli is not giving them a ton of $$$ on a long term deal, but the overall premise is the same. Sign an old vet to fill the void. Don't take a chance on developing a younger player.

This will obviously look much better if Pioli can draft to replace these guys.


Realistically, though, everything in life is maximized through moderation. If young guys were the correct answer, NOBODY would ever get a second contract. It's just that simple.

I would venture a guess that every team that has won the Super Bowl has a FA vet playing a role. It's not the end of the world. These guys aren't being brought in as building blocks for a run, they are bodies. And rather than just have schmucks that will be cut at the earliest possible convenience, he's trying to get a little more out of them.

And again, **** HERM. The only youth movement he was ever on was in Tampa. Dungy was running the show, and I doubt that all veterans were cut loose. Herm is a ****ing toolbox. We should strive to NOT repeat any mistakes, including playing young POS's only because they are young.

**** HERM!
Posted via Mobile Device

My opinion is that when you sign several free agents, there age should line up somewhat with the progression of the team toward the team's goal, which is to win the superbowl. If you have a few holes or need some depth at a few spots, it is a great move to sign several old vets if needed to get you to the superbowl. The Patriots just did this and I think it was a great move.

If you are a 2-14 team and you are several years away from a superbowl, you should just have a few vets on the team and spend most of the valuable playing time on some young players with the goal of trying to develop a quality roster with at least some depth.

What I find funny is a lot of you guys argue for drafting a young QB and taking a chance, but when it comes to taking a chance on developing a younger player at another position that is not a high draft pick.... then no, you can't do that. sign the vet. Take the SAFE route.

JD10367
06-01-2009, 09:52 AM
How is Vrabel setting an example on how to transition to a winning mindset?

1.) He's won Super Bowls.
2.) He's a vet.
3.) He can help implement the 3-4 defense.
4.) He can be a goal-line threat. (Even when teams know he's in the game, they still don't seem to guard him. All he does is catch touchdowns, LOL.)

Brian Waters has been blasted on here repeatedly. The bottom line is Vrabel and Waters are both absent. Neither has shown up. Actions speak louder than words and they are saying the same thing.

I don't want to be here.

I do agree that it would've made a better impression had he shown up recently. But maybe he had a verbal agreement with Pioli that he wouldn't have to show up for the involuntaries in May. If he's not there when August rolls around, that's different.

Buehler445
06-01-2009, 10:06 AM
You are correct that the long term consequences of these free agents is not as bad bc Pioli is not giving them a ton of $$$ on a long term deal, but the overall premise is the same. Sign an old vet to fill the void. Don't take a chance on developing a younger player.

This will obviously look much better if Pioli can draft to replace these guys.



My opinion is that when you sign several free agents, there age should line up somewhat with the progression of the team toward the team's goal, which is to win the superbowl. If you have a few holes or need some depth at a few spots, it is a great move to sign several old vets if needed to get you to the superbowl. The Patriots just did this and I think it was a great move.

If you are a 2-14 team and you are several years away from a superbowl, you should just have a few vets on the team and spend most of the valuable playing time on some young players with the goal of trying to develop a quality roster with at least some depth.

What I find funny is a lot of you guys argue for drafting a young QB and taking a chance, but when it comes to taking a chance on developing a younger player at another position that is not a high draft pick.... then no, you can't do that. sign the vet. Take the SAFE route.

Look. First point. The guys "valuable playing time" that they are taking are 99% going to be worthless POS scrubs that aren't going to be here when we make a run either. Look at a free agent list, there's not much there. We tried that shit with Herm. Pat Thomas, Rocky Boiman, and whoever the fuck else we stuck in there are OFF THE TEAM and didn't contribute SHIT. If there's a shot those guys can do some mentoring before the wheels fall off then that is significantly better than what Thomas and Boiman did. Their contracts are set up to do that, not to be a burden long after they can't play.

Second point. There should be a balance of youth and age on any team. It used to be too old, Herm made it too young. The elders last year were TG, Waters, and Donnie. 2 of those guys are gone. All we've done is replace some older guys. This team didn't get "older" it just replaced some old guys.

As it is now, this team, agewise is NOT MUCH DIFFERENT than Herm's club. In fact, Donnie and TG were overpaid.
Posted via Mobile Device

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 10:18 AM
Look. First point. The guys "valuable playing time" that they are taking are 99% going to be worthless POS scrubs that aren't going to be here when we make a run either. Look at a free agent list, there's not much there. We tried that shit with Herm. Pat Thomas, Rocky Boiman, and whoever the **** else we stuck in there are OFF THE TEAM and didn't contribute SHIT. If there's a shot those guys can do some mentoring before the wheels fall off then that is significantly better than what Thomas and Boiman did. Their contracts are set up to do that, not to be a burden long after they can't play.

Every team has success stories of guys that are cast offs or undrafted that do well. Take for example, Priest Holmes. Undrafted by the Ravens in 97. He was a backup. The Chiefs signed him in 01 and he was 27. He was a cast off from the Ravens. The rest is history.

One way to make 100% sure you don't find the rare success stories like Priest Holmes is by signing players on their last legs.


Second point. There should be a balance of youth and age on any team. It used to be too old, Herm made it too young. The elders last year were TG, Waters, and Donnie. 2 of those guys are gone. All we've done is replace some older guys. This team didn't get "older" it just replaced some old guys.

I agree with this to an extent. I thought Vrabel was enough.


As it is now, this team, agewise is NOT MUCH DIFFERENENT than Herm's club. In fact, Donnie and TG were overpaid.
Posted via Mobile Device

Donnie was overpaid and TG DEFINITELY WAS NOT OVERPAID. NO WAY!

Buehler445
06-01-2009, 10:28 AM
Every team has success stories of guys that are cast offs or undrafted that do well. Take for example, Priest Holmes. Undrafted by the Ravens in 97. He was a backup. The Chiefs signed him in 01 and he was 27. He was a cast off from the Ravens. The rest is history.

One way to make 100% sure you don't find the rare success stories like Priest Holmes is by signing players on their last legs.



I agree with this to an extent. I thought Vrabel was enough.



Donnie was overpaid and TG DEFINITELY WAS NOT OVERPAID. NO WAY!

So you'd rather run worthless scrubs out there just so you don't miss a diamond in the rough and then forego any benefit you may have gotten otherwise? You have to balance risk/reward. You just have to.

TG being overpaid is arguable. I'll give you that.
Posted via Mobile Device

HC_Chief
06-01-2009, 10:35 AM
Herm's "method" netted us 6 wins in two seasons. That's batting .188. Not so great for MLB, shit for NFL.

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 11:35 AM
Herm's "method" netted us 6 wins in two seasons. That's batting .188. Not so great for MLB, shit for NFL.

Is Herm the only person in the NFL that has chosen to put mostly young guys on the field instead of 33+ vets???

HemiEd
06-01-2009, 11:37 AM
Why is this thread still going? Hasn't kcbubb sobered/healed up yet?

DaKCMan AP
06-01-2009, 11:39 AM
Is Herm the only person in the NFL that has chosen to put mostly young guys on the field instead of 33+ vets???

The two youngest teams last season (KC & GB) were a combined 8-24. :spock:

DaKCMan AP
06-01-2009, 11:39 AM
Why is this thread still going? Hasn't kcbubb sobered/healed up yet?

No, he's permanently damaged/impaired.

The Bad Guy
06-01-2009, 11:45 AM
I guess the sharp tools want to have several players that are 33+ on this team that will not be on this team when it has a real chance to be competitive.

Say what you want about how those old players will lead or teach or whatever but the fact is, they won't be here when we get to a superbowl. I would rather take the risk of trying a young guy or at a minimum signing a younger free agent that has a chance to help the team long term.

Veteran players have an impact on young players. Those young players will be around for a SB push in a few years.

The impact veterans have can be tremendous.

It's sad you can't see that.

JD10367
06-01-2009, 11:47 AM
Is Herm the only person in the NFL that has chosen to put mostly young guys on the field instead of 33+ vets???

You can put young guys on the field.

You just have to be a good enough coach to make them the right young guys.

I always felt bad for Squirmin' Herman, 'cause he seems like a nice guy, but I just don't think he's coach material.

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 11:59 AM
Veteran players have an impact on young players. Those young players will be around for a SB push in a few years.

The impact veterans have can be tremendous.

It's sad you can't see that.

I see it, but I would rather sign a guy like Tinoisamoa (see below) than Zach Thomas. I think a guy like him can do both. He can have an impact on the younger guys and still be around in a few years if you want to resign him. Also see that the bears signed him to a one year deal. They didn't break the bank on this guy.


Bears agree to terms with Tinoisamoa, Rams' leading tackler in '08

Associated Press

LAKE FOREST, Ill. -- Free-agent linebacker Pisa Tinoisamoa agreed to a one-year contract with the Chicago Bears on Friday after leading the St. Louis Rams in tackles four of the past six seasons.
Pisa Tinoisamoa, LB
Chicago Bears

2008 Statistics
G/GS: 16/16
Tackles: 104
Sacks: 3.0

The 6-foot-1, 240-pound Tinoisamoa led the Rams with 104 tackles (88 solo) before getting released by a new coaching staff seeking more size. In Chicago, he's reuniting with coach Lovie Smith, his defensive coordinator during the 2003 season in St. Louis.

Tinoisamoa will probably start at strongside linebacker alongside Lance Briggs and Brian Urlacher, although incumbent Nick Roach and former starter Hunter Hillenmeyer are in the mix. A second-round pick by the Rams in 2003, he has 445 total tackles, 10 sacks, seven interceptions, 25 pass break-ups, six forced fumbles and three fumble recoveries in his career.

Terms of the deal were not disclosed.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8109130a&template=without-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Just Passin' By
06-01-2009, 12:09 PM
I see it, but I would rather sign a guy like Tinoisamoa (see below) than Zach Thomas. I think a guy like him can do both. He can have an impact on the younger guys and still be around in a few years if you want to resign him. Also see that the bears signed him to a one year deal. They didn't break the bank on this guy.


Bears agree to terms with Tinoisamoa, Rams' leading tackler in '08

Associated Press

LAKE FOREST, Ill. -- Free-agent linebacker Pisa Tinoisamoa agreed to a one-year contract with the Chicago Bears on Friday after leading the St. Louis Rams in tackles four of the past six seasons.
Pisa Tinoisamoa, LB
Chicago Bears

2008 Statistics
G/GS: 16/16
Tackles: 104
Sacks: 3.0

The 6-foot-1, 240-pound Tinoisamoa led the Rams with 104 tackles (88 solo) before getting released by a new coaching staff seeking more size. In Chicago, he's reuniting with coach Lovie Smith, his defensive coordinator during the 2003 season in St. Louis.

Tinoisamoa will probably start at strongside linebacker alongside Lance Briggs and Brian Urlacher, although incumbent Nick Roach and former starter Hunter Hillenmeyer are in the mix. A second-round pick by the Rams in 2003, he has 445 total tackles, 10 sacks, seven interceptions, 25 pass break-ups, six forced fumbles and three fumble recoveries in his career.

Terms of the deal were not disclosed.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8109130a&template=without-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Tinoisamoa was brought in by the Patriots and they decided to go with someone else. Tinoisamoa reportedly was playing last season at somewhere between 220-225. He was reportedly cut by the Rams because he was too light. You really just don't seem to understand football, so maybe instead of constantly whining about Pioli, you should be reading up on the sport.

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 12:19 PM
Tinoisamoa was brought in by the Patriots and they decided to go with someone else. Tinoisamoa reportedly was playing last season at somewhere between 220-225. He was reportedly cut by the Rams because he was too light. You really just don't seem to understand football, so maybe instead of constantly whining about Pioli, you should be reading up on the sport.

It is also reported that....

The 6-foot-1, 240-pound Tinoisamoa led the Rams with 104 tackles (88 solo).

Why do you love Pioli so much???? Seriously.... Everytime I question anything he does, you get all in an uproar. What is the connection there? Oh and please give me the he's the GM you aren't qualified to question him crap again.

Give me one thing you disagree with that he has done. Prove that you aren't his secret admirer. Do his glasses do it for you?

Just Passin' By
06-01-2009, 12:42 PM
It is also reported that....

The 6-foot-1, 240-pound Tinoisamoa led the Rams with 104 tackles (88 solo).

Why do you love Pioli so much???? Seriously.... Everytime I question anything he does, you get all in an uproar. What is the connection there? Oh and please give me the he's the GM you aren't qualified to question him crap again.

Give me one thing you disagree with that he has done. Prove that you aren't his secret admirer. Do his glasses do it for you?

It has nothing to do with loving Pioli. It has to do with understanding football more than "YOUNG PLAYERS!" "YOUNG PLAYERS!". You don't seem to have any concept of what it takes to win in any major professional sport. From football to baseball to basketball to hockey, youth consistently gets beaten by experience.

As for things Pioli has done that I don't like, I assume you mean in the less-than-six-months of offseason since he's been in K.C. It's pretty unfair to judge what he's done given the amount of time and the extent of the train wreck he's dealing with. Since, unlike you, I actually like the idea of bringing in veteran players in their final years since I've seen it be successful year after year in New England, I don't view that as a problem. If you need something from me as a gripe, ask me again when the final roster is announced and all the waived/cut players from training camps around the league have been filtered through. Until then, crying about a #17 running back or the 4th backup safety isn't worth the time it takes to type it on the computer.

You, and far too many people following sports today, seem to think that you actually know what the hell you're talking about to the point where you'd be better at the job than the professionals hired. You're really pissing and moaning because you think you'd have done a better job.

This isn't Belichick going to the Patriots, finding a solid core group and drafting a Tom Brady. This is Pioli going to the Chiefs and finding just 1 moderately proven (one year, not yet repeated) 'core' player under the age of 30. Quit bitching, stop acting as if this train wreck could have been fixed if they'd just kept Herm/Herm's way and given it one more year, and realize that this team had, perhaps, the least talented roster in the NFL when Pioli arrived. Then, understand that it's going to take years to make this team truly and consistently competitive.

Buehler445
06-01-2009, 01:08 PM
It is also reported that....

The 6-foot-1, 240-pound Tinoisamoa led the Rams with 104 tackles (88 solo).

Why do you love Pioli so much???? Seriously.... Everytime I question anything he does, you get all in an uproar. What is the connection there? Oh and please give me the he's the GM you aren't qualified to question him crap again.

Give me one thing you disagree with that he has done. Prove that you aren't his secret admirer. Do his glasses do it for you?

Wasn't this the bastard that was hurt all the time? I remember a thread about a lamb with a ginormous name that was broken all the time.

This sounds to me like a Nap Harris type retread. He got PT in St Louis (obviously, since he lead the team in tackles). If he was good why is he on the street. If his leading the team in tackles is so wonderful, why did he get a 1 year deal?

This doesn't sound to me to be a Diamond in the Rough situation. This sounds like the dude doesn't have the goods. And it's not like St. Louis is stacked at LB, like Baltimore was when they let Preist go (IIRC).

I don't think there are too many people that are clamoring to have Nap Harris back.

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 01:32 PM
You, and far too many people following sports today, seem to think that you actually know what the hell you're talking about to the point where you'd be better at the job than the professionals hired. You're really pissing and moaning because you think you'd have done a better job.


I knew you had a crush on Pioli, but I really didn't think it was this bad.

So it is ok to slam Carl and Herm even though they are supposed to be professionals. But not Pioli??? I don't think so. I'll criticize all of them on a message board if I feel like it.

That's the point of a message board... To express your opinion. If everyone never questioned management, there would be no Chiefs Planet. If you want that, go to kcchiefs.com.

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 01:36 PM
Wasn't this the bastard that was hurt all the time? I remember a thread about a lamb with a ginormous name that was broken all the time.

This sounds to me like a Nap Harris type retread. He got PT in St Louis (obviously, since he lead the team in tackles). If he was good why is he on the street. If his leading the team in tackles is so wonderful, why did he get a 1 year deal?

This doesn't sound to me to be a Diamond in the Rough situation. This sounds like the dude doesn't have the goods. And it's not like St. Louis is stacked at LB, like Baltimore was when they let Preist go (IIRC).

I don't think there are too many people that are clamoring to have Nap Harris back.

He lead the Rams in tackles for 4 seasons and I know there defense sucked, but the guy is 27 and has some experience. They didn't sign him for a ton of money and they signed him on a one year contract. Tinoisamoa > Zach

JD10367
06-01-2009, 01:36 PM
So it is ok to slam Carl and Herm even though they are supposed to be professionals. But not Pioli??? I don't think so.

Pioli has a track record which includes three Lombardi trophies. Carl and Herm have a track record of.... ummm.... :shrug:

As Belichick said to the media when he signed Randy Moss, "let's give him a chance". If the Chiefs go 2-14 this season and show no improvement, then bring out the rope and hang the bastard...

JD10367
06-01-2009, 01:37 PM
He lead the Rams in tackles for 4 seasons and I know there defense sucked, but the guy is 27 and has some experience. They didn't sign him for a ton of money and they signed him on a one year contract. Tinoisamoa > Zach

Tino turned down the Patriots to sign with Chicago instead. What makes you think he would've considered KC? Pioli probably knew better, hence the reason there was no public interest.

Just Passin' By
06-01-2009, 01:37 PM
I knew you had a crush on Pioli, but I really didn't think it was this bad.

So it is ok to slam Carl and Herm even though they are supposed to be professionals. But not Pioli??? I don't think so. I'll criticize all of them on a message board if I feel like it.

That's the point of a message board... To express your opinion. If everyone never questioned management, there would be no Chiefs Planet. If you want that, go to kcchiefs.com.

What the hell are you talking about? Carl and Herm have a track record of failure. Questioning the moves of failures makes sense, incessantly complaining about the moves of someone without a track record of failure while defending the 'way' of the known failures is completely idiotic. You won't catch me calling out Lions fans who belittle Millen's tenure as G.M., because he proved that he was incompetent. There's a clear difference here, which I'd expect any human being of even somewhat substandard intelligence to understand.

Buehler445
06-01-2009, 01:39 PM
I knew you had a crush on Pioli, but I really didn't think it was this bad.

So it is ok to slam Carl and Herm even though they are supposed to be professionals. But not Pioli??? I don't think so. I'll criticize all of them on a message board if I feel like it.

That's the point of a message board... To express your opinion. If everyone never questioned management, there would be no Chiefs Planet. If you want that, go to kcchiefs.com.

I think everybody would have done things differently than Pioli. But bashing him because of Vrable, Thomas, and Engram is stupid.

If anything, they maybe should have brought in some more younger guys in addition, but the level of leadership these guys are supposed to provide will be a lot more than some fucking POS scrub that will just perpetuate the suck.

Sure, they might not work out as well as planned, but that certainly doesn't mean that Herm's method would have done better.
Posted via Mobile Device

Just Passin' By
06-01-2009, 01:40 PM
Tino turned down the Patriots to sign with Chicago instead. What makes you think he would've considered KC? Pioli probably knew better, hence the reason there was no public interest.

The only reports I've read say (or imply) that the Patriots didn't make him an offer, and that he had the two basically identical offers from Chicago and Buffalo to choose from. Have you got a link to back up your claim about the Patriots getting turned down? I'd love to read about any new info you can offer on this.

Buehler445
06-01-2009, 01:43 PM
He lead the Rams in tackles for 4 seasons and I know there defense sucked, but the guy is 27 and has some experience. They didn't sign him for a ton of money and they signed him on a one year contract. Tinoisamoa > Zach

He started on a shitty ass team. So fucking what? Harris led the team in tackles the year before OUR horrible fucking worthless waste of space defense fucking fired his pussy ass. Just because he played doesn't mean he is good. At this point, I'd take some leadership over a worthless piece of ass that is a little younger. And if you are looking for I'mnotgoingtospellouthislongassfuckingname to provide leadership, then, well, I guess you want to be like St. Louis.
Posted via Mobile Device

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 01:44 PM
What the hell are you talking about? Carl and Herm have a track record of failure. Questioning the moves of failures makes sense, incessantly complaining about the moves of someone without a track record of failure while defending the 'way' of the known failures is completely idiotic. You won't catch me calling out Lions fans who belittle Millen's tenure as G.M., because he proved that he was incompetent. There's a clear difference here, which I'd expect any human being of even somewhat substandard intelligence to understand.

You said professionals. You didn't say anything about performance. And Pioli is a rookie. I'll give him a chance but don't fault me for questioning his moves.

And will you question Pioli if the Chiefs suck next season??? He's Pioli. You can't question Pioli.

I doubt it. You have his picture next to your speedometer in your car. Just Passin' By + Pioli = man crush

JD10367
06-01-2009, 01:54 PM
The only reports I've read say (or imply) that the Patriots didn't make him an offer, and that he had the two basically identical offers from Chicago and Buffalo to choose from. Have you got a link to back up your claim about the Patriots getting turned down? I'd love to read about any new info you can offer on this.

Just my take on it. IIRC the order of events was: PinoTino flew to N.E. for a visit; he left; the Pats signed Paris Lenon. Some say the Pats decided he didn't fit the 3-4 but I find it weird that the Pats showed that much interest in a guy, had him in the building, and then he walks out and signs with Chicago. I'd like to know what the contract he got from the Bears looks like, and compare it to what Lenon got from the Pats, to see if there were enough differences there for him to warrant choosing Chicago over New England or if the Pats just thought Lenon was a cheaper alternative.

In slight defense of the Pioli-questioners, I do find it interesting that Pioli hasn't signed more players this offseason and/or brought a bunch in for tryouts. If the roster's as bad as some of you claim, you would think a huge turnover is in order... unless Pioli thinks the players weren't as much of the problem? Maybe he actually likes the youth on the team better than players that he could go get, which would actually go against the very point being argued...

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 01:59 PM
In slight defense of the Pioli-questioners, I do find it interesting that Pioli hasn't signed more players this offseason and/or brought a bunch in for tryouts. If the roster's as bad as some of you claim, you would think a huge turnover is in order... unless Pioli thinks the players weren't as much of the problem? Maybe he actually likes the youth on the team better than players that he could go get, which would actually go against the very point being argued...

I think their might be more to this than some people believe, especially with the resigning of Jarrad Page.

And I agree with you about the depth. I think there is a pretty good chance Zach gets hurt this year. Who's backing him up??? Please don't say Dacus.

Buehler445
06-01-2009, 02:03 PM
I think their might be more to this than some people believe, especially with the resigning of Jarrad Page.

And I agree with you about the depth. I think there is a pretty good chance Zach gets hurt this year. Who's backing him up??? Please don't say Dacus.

But Dacus is just the tyope of scrub that you are advocating. He could be the one that gets away!!!

Coincidentally, this is my problem with Pioli. He didn't bring more guys in.
Posted via Mobile Device

Just Passin' By
06-01-2009, 02:03 PM
You said professionals. You didn't say anything about performance. And Pioli is a rookie. I'll give him a chance but don't fault me for questioning his moves.

And will you question Pioli if the Chiefs suck next season??? He's Pioli. You can't question Pioli.

I doubt it. You have his picture next to your speedometer in your car. Just Passin' By + Pioli = man crush

1.) Pioli is not a rookie

2.) Questioning professionals and thinking you can do their job better than they do are not necessarily the same thing. In your case, however, you clearly seem to think you could do a better job than a man who's won "executive of the year" on multiple occasions even when he's still in his first months of his first offseason with the new team.

3.) I don't care if the Chiefs suck next season, and I wouldn't care even if I was a Chiefs fan. Evaluating this team based upon wins and losses, or your perception of 'suck' is exactly what you don't do with a team this bad. This team will need to be evaluated based upon progress towards EVENTUAL consistently competitive teams, or the lack thereof. Let me repeat something I mentioned earlier, in the hopes that it will penetrate that veil of willful ignorance you're currently walking around with:

Pioli walked into a situation with a team that had only one core talent under the age of 30, and that player has only had one season. This team had a 30+ tight end and a 30- left tackle, and that's it. No other player on this team had cemented himself as the kind of high end talent that you want on Super Bowl contenders, especially at the core positions (middle of the field on defense, QB, LT, RB, #1 WR on offense). Even if you were to stretch and toss Bowe in that group (and I could easily be convinced to add him to the mix if he would just show improvement on his drop issue), that's still only two on the entire team.

4.) I don't have a man crush on Pioli. I have an interest in following his progress or lack thereof, nothing more. Frankly, it's in the best interest of my team that Pioli, Mangini, McDaniels, Crennel, Dimitroff, et al. go down in flames.

5.) You claiming that you'll give Pioli a chance would have more weight to it if you hadn't already proven that you won't actually do that.

DaKCMan AP
06-01-2009, 02:10 PM
Tinoisamoa > Zach

Corky > kcbubb

http://www.feelthelovewith.us/images/user/corky.jpg

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 02:15 PM
1.) Pioli is not a rookie

2.) Questioning professionals and thinking you can do their job better than they do are not necessarily the same thing. In your case, however, you clearly seem to think you could do a better job than a man who's won "executive of the year" on multiple occasions even when he's still in his first months of his first offseason with the new team.


5.) You claiming that you'll give Pioli a chance would have more weight to it if you hadn't already proven that you won't actually do that.

I could care less if it were Bill Parcells or Bill B. I'll question whoever on a message board. That's what they are for. I enjoy arguing with guys like you that are as hard headed as me.

Although, I will say it is rare that I argue with someone that has such a personal crush and defends everything someone does when they are criticized.

But hey, if Pioli & Haley wins some games with these old farts and makes us even somewhat competitive, I'll be the first to say that I screwed that prediction up.

Just Passin' By
06-01-2009, 02:26 PM
I could care less if it were Bill Parcells or Bill B. I'll question whoever on a message board. That's what they are for. I enjoy arguing with guys like you that are as hard headed as me.

Although, I will say it is rare that I argue with someone that has such a personal crush and defends everything someone does when they are criticized.

But hey, if Pioli & Haley wins some games with these old farts and makes us even somewhat competitive, I'll be the first to say that I screwed that prediction up.

Just for you, some questions:

1.) Why not more veteran running backs to compete?

2.) What's the backup plan if Thomas gets another concussion?

3.) Why is Cassel not signed to a long-term deal and, if the Chiefs plan to hold off, why not go public with an explanation?

4.) Does he think Dorsey is a bust? If he does, why didn't he trade him prior to the draft, when he could have used the 4-3/3-4 thing as cover? If he doesn't, but he's not using Dorsey on the nose, why did he draft 2 defensive ends?

5.) Why not look to bring in a #2 receiver if he was going to get rid of Gonzalez? Is that going to wait until cuts, is he confident in what's already there, did he not like what was available... why?

See, these are questions that I'd ask if I could sit down with him over a beer. They are not, however, complaints, because it's far too early to be going down that path.

I don't defend everything. I say wait and see. There's a big difference. Frankly, there's always plenty to question, no matter who the person is. I question Belichick,and he's the best in the game. However, and again, there's a difference between having questions, and making asinine comments preferring Herm's approach over Pioli's when you haven't even seen this team on the field for the first time under Pioli yet.

Chaunceythe3rd
06-01-2009, 02:43 PM
We aren't gonna get diddly squat better this year unless there are some veterans on the sideline to keep Haley in check and bale him out when he screws up. He needed Warner and Boldin in Arizona to knock him around every game when he had his head up his ass. Heck, Whisenhunt only let him call plays for one year and Warner was free to ignore them, which he did very regularly. We don't have the offensive talent that the Cards have so I think Haley will be unmasked early on. Pioli is not the guy for this task because he didn't have to do the same with Belichick (who would have eaten him alive). What we have here are two supposed "wonder kids" whose reputation was made on the efforts of those around them. I hope I'm wrong but I think Haley was as poor a choice as Clancy Pendergast whose AZ defense gave up as many points as the team scored all year with three games where 50 points were given up. If this is an indication of Pioli's and Haley's prowess, then I'm not impressed at all.

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 02:58 PM
Corky > kcbubb

http://www.feelthelovewith.us/images/user/corky.jpg

that's pretty funny...

Here's some interesting news. Pioli has a hot new prospect and I know Hunt is already going to say I told you so since he confirmed with us that Pioli is a shrewd evaluator of talent...

Here's the pick of the new prospect..

http://www.ecumen.org/changing-aging/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/football-player.jpg

Bob Bonawitz

milkman
06-01-2009, 03:38 PM
You said professionals. You didn't say anything about performance. And Pioli is a rookie. I'll give him a chance but don't fault me for questioning his moves.

And will you question Pioli if the Chiefs suck next season??? He's Pioli. You can't question Pioli.

I doubt it. You have his picture next to your speedometer in your car. Just Passin' By + Pioli = man crush

No one says you can't question Pioli, but don't be surprised when the quetions you raise are stupid fucking questions and you are called a dumbass for it.

Dumbass.

DeezNutz
06-01-2009, 03:43 PM
You shouldn't question Pioli.

milkman
06-01-2009, 03:45 PM
You shouldn't question Pioli.

:cuss:

Raised On Riots
06-01-2009, 03:48 PM
that's pretty funny...

Here's some interesting news. Pioli has a hot new prospect and I know Hunt is already going to say I told you so since he confirmed with us that Pioli is a shrewd evaluator of talent...

Here's the pick of the new prospect..

http://www.ecumen.org/changing-aging/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/football-player.jpg

SKIP TOWNE

FYP. :D

MadMax
06-01-2009, 04:04 PM
We aren't gonna get diddly squat better this year unless there are some veterans on the sideline to keep Haley in check and bale him out when he screws up. He needed Warner and Boldin in Arizona to knock him around every game when he had his head up his ass. Heck, Whisenhunt only let him call plays for one year and Warner was free to ignore them, which he did very regularly. We don't have the offensive talent that the Cards have so I think Haley will be unmasked early on. Pioli is not the guy for this task because he didn't have to do the same with Belichick (who would have eaten him alive). What we have here are two supposed "wonder kids" whose reputation was made on the efforts of those around them. I hope I'm wrong but I think Haley was as poor a choice as Clancy Pendergast whose AZ defense gave up as many points as the team scored all year with three games where 50 points were given up. If this is an indication of Pioli's and Haley's prowess, then I'm not impressed at all.



Jeez, next you'll be saying Cassel is a mediocre QB. :eek:

Raised On Riots
06-01-2009, 04:06 PM
Jeez, next you'll be saying Cassel is a mediocre QB. :eek:

I find taking sports views from someone named "Chauncey" seriously a very hard thing to do.:p

MadMax
06-01-2009, 04:17 PM
I find taking sports views from someone named "Chauncey" seriously a very hard thing to do.:p



ROFL He is 3rd generation Chauncey if that helps any. ;) I do agree with what he said though.

BarrySPAMAID
06-01-2009, 04:35 PM
1.) Pioli is not a rookie

2.) Questioning professionals and thinking you can do their job better than they do are not necessarily the same thing. In your case, however, you clearly seem to think you could do a better job than a man who's won "executive of the year" on multiple occasions even when he's still in his first months of his first offseason with the new team.

3.) I don't care if the Chiefs suck next season, and I wouldn't care even if I was a Chiefs fan. Evaluating this team based upon wins and losses, or your perception of 'suck' is exactly what you don't do with a team this bad. This team will need to be evaluated based upon progress towards EVENTUAL consistently competitive teams, or the lack thereof. Let me repeat something I mentioned earlier, in the hopes that it will penetrate that veil of willful ignorance you're currently walking around with:

Pioli walked into a situation with a team that had only one core talent under the age of 30, and that player has only had one season. This team had a 30+ tight end and a 30- left tackle, and that's it. No other player on this team had cemented himself as the kind of high end talent that you want on Super Bowl contenders, especially at the core positions (middle of the field on defense, QB, LT, RB, #1 WR on offense). Even if you were to stretch and toss Bowe in that group (and I could easily be convinced to add him to the mix if he would just show improvement on his drop issue), that's still only two on the entire team.

4.) I don't have a man crush on Pioli. I have an interest in following his progress or lack thereof, nothing more. Frankly, it's in the best interest of my team that Pioli, Mangini, McDaniels, Crennel, Dimitroff, et al. go down in flames.

5.) You claiming that you'll give Pioli a chance would have more weight to it if you hadn't already proven that you won't actually do that.


This my friend, was a great post. Good stuff, 5 stars for you today. I will take the questions below, just for fun. So have at it,...




Just for you, some questions:

1.) Why not more veteran running backs to compete?

Because Jackie Battle, Jamaal Charles, and Kolby Smith are a very capable. I for one am looking for Battle to step up this year and claim his spot behind Larry Johnson, while having an occasional Charles on third down.

2.) What's the backup plan if Thomas gets another concussion?

Thomas?


3.) Why is Cassel not signed to a long-term deal and, if the Chiefs plan to hold off, why not go public with an explanation?

Because it's May. That's why.

4.) Does he think Dorsey is a bust? If he does, why didn't he trade him prior to the draft, when he could have used the 4-3/3-4 thing as cover? If he doesn't, but he's not using Dorsey on the nose, why did he draft 2 defensive ends?

The answer is NO, and anyone WHO DOES think that Dorsey is a bust, is either jumping to conclusions, or JUST DOSENT UNDERSTAND the Defensive tackle position well enough. Dorsey will have a strong role in this hybrid defense this year, and I expect a strong sophmore year from him. His numbers last year were good. Write it down.


5.) Why not look to bring in a #2 receiver if he was going to get rid of Gonzalez? Is that going to wait until cuts, is he confident in what's already there, did he not like what was available... why?

Again, I refer to May. I still think a few players may still be available, or dealt prior to camp. If not, Having a Bowe, Bradley, Engram starting is fine with me.


See, these are questions that I'd ask if I could sit down with him over a beer. They are not, however, complaints, because it's far too early to be going down that path.

I don't defend everything. I say wait and see. There's a big difference. Frankly, there's always plenty to question, no matter who the person is. I question Belichick,and he's the best in the game. However, and again, there's a difference between having questions, and making asinine comments preferring Herm's approach over Pioli's when you haven't even seen this team on the field for the first time under Pioli yet.

Again, very good point. The only thing we know right now, is that these players are probably going to sweat their asses of come August. On paper, it looks like Haley is looking to win the 4th quarter. ( Which, if this team could have done last season, they would not have been 2-14)


We aren't gonna get diddly squat better this year unless there are some veterans on the sideline to keep Haley in check and bale him out when he screws up. He needed Warner and Boldin in Arizona to knock him around every game when he had his head up his ass. Heck, Whisenhunt only let him call plays for one year and Warner was free to ignore them, which he did very regularly. We don't have the offensive talent that the Cards have so I think Haley will be unmasked early on. Pioli is not the guy for this task because he didn't have to do the same with Belichick (who would have eaten him alive). What we have here are two supposed "wonder kids" whose reputation was made on the efforts of those around them. I hope I'm wrong but I think Haley was as poor a choice as Clancy Pendergast whose AZ defense gave up as many points as the team scored all year with three games where 50 points were given up. If this is an indication of Pioli's and Haley's prowess, then I'm not impressed at all.


Ya know, at first when I heard that Herm Edwards was being released, and that we would have a new coach coming into town, I wanted the Bill Cowher, or some big name out there, to come in and start kicking some ass. I didnt know anything about Haley. The best thing I can tell you is this,

The more I read about Haley, the more pressors that I watch, the more I get excited about this young football team. In reference to your comment about Clancy, and his defense, I had the Cards Defense as my starting defense on my fantasy team last season. I will say this much, They got hot, when it mattered. This is what got me to warm up to Clancy. Come time to compete, in the games THEY HAD to win, Arizona's defense did quite well in the end.

.

Raised On Riots
06-01-2009, 04:42 PM
ROFL He is 3rd generation Chauncey if that helps any. ;) I do agree with what he said though.

I don't. That's about as worst-case scenario as you can possibly get, and not very grounded in reality.

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 04:49 PM
The more I read about Haley, the more pressors that I watch, the more I get excited about this young football team. In reference to your comment about Clancy, and his defense, I had the Cards Defense as my starting defense on my fantasy team last season. I will say this much, They got hot, when it mattered. This is what got me to warm up to Clancy. Come time to compete, in the games THEY HAD to win, Arizona's defense did quite well in the end.


My opinion of Haley has been exactly the opposite. I was kinda optimistic at first.

Now after seeing the following...

Pioli tap at his watch telling Haley to speed it up at a presser

and how he handled Waters who plays one of our weakest positions

and how he didn't give an accurate answer of where his first round pick is going to play when he said he would play on the open side

and after signing a bunch of old players

I'm beginning to think that Haley is more of yes man to Pioli.

DeezNutz
06-01-2009, 04:52 PM
and how he handled Waters who plays one of our weakest positions


You're really worried about how he treated an OG?

kcbubb
06-01-2009, 04:54 PM
You're really worried about how he treated an OG?

yes. The OG is huge in the run game and short yardage. Remember Will Shields???

DeezNutz
06-01-2009, 04:56 PM
yes. The OG is huge in the run game and short yardage. Remember Will Shields???

Yes, I understand that the O-line is generally important in most running and passing situations.

My concern for the treatment of any OG is slightly more than my worry about the treatment of a K or P.

I long for the day when our best players and the fan favorites don't play some of the least important positions on the field.

MadMax
06-01-2009, 04:57 PM
I don't. That's about as worst-case scenario as you can possibly get, and not very grounded in reality.



Color me pessimistic. Actually I'm just not impressed by ANY of the moves the Chiefs have made with the exception of getting rid of Carl and Herm. But I don't pretend to know Jack squat about anything, I will however hope for the best cause it's what I do every season.

BarrySPAMAID
06-01-2009, 04:58 PM
My opinion of Haley has been exactly the opposite. I was kinda optimistic at first.

Now after seeing the following...

Pioli tap at his watch telling Haley to speed it up at a presser

and how he handled Waters who plays one of our weakest positions

and how he didn't give an accurate answer of where his first round pick is going to play when he said he would play on the open side

and after signing a bunch of old players

I'm beginning to think that Haley is more of yes man to Pioli.

I never heard anything about Pioli tapping his watch. Do you have a link? And really does that matter?

Brian Waters will be at Mini camp next week, I'm sure Haley, and Waters will be whistleing the same tune by then.

As far as signing a "bunch of old players" If you call Vrabel, Thomas, Engram, Goff, and Beisel "a bunch of old players" , your just losing me on that one.



You're really worried about how he treated an OG?


My thoughts exactly, and he did kinda show up uninvited.

Just Passin' By
06-01-2009, 06:20 PM
From Haley's Q&A on 6/1:

OTA #5

Q: The linebacker position has changed quite a bit this spring. How do you see that coming along?

TODD HALEY: “I think I’m generally encouraged by the linebackers and the progress they’re making. LB Zach Thomas coming into the picture has helped give them some direction all the time. So, I would say generally I’m encouraged. They’re getting in shape. They’re getting stronger. When you watch them out there, I think we’ve got a chance to get something out of them.”

.......

Q: “What kind of leadership does LB Zach Thomas provide to the other linebackers and other guys on the team?”

HALEY: “Well, Zach is not an overly-vocal guy, so his leadership is more by example. I think there’s a great respect for a player that has done what he’s done over the course of his career, especially being what I pointed out to the team is that he wasn’t expected to do what he’s done and have the career he’s had to this point. So, he’s done it for a reason and that’s by hard work. It’s pretty much like clockwork, when I’m in there on the treadmill at 6:50 a.m. or so, I know Zach is rolling through at right around there every day. I think he shows these guys, they’re smart enough to look at him and say, ‘This guy made it. Let me watch what he’s doing.’ And then they see what he’s doing and it’s just consistency. He’s the same guy every day. There’s not a lot of up-and-down or yo-yo with Zach. You’re getting the same guy every day and if we can get everybody preparing and being the same guy every day, being that that’s a hard-working guy that’s doing the things necessary to get himself ready, we’ll have a chance.”

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2009/06/01/qa_with_todd_haley__61/

That's why you bring in the veterans. When Vrabel reports to the mandatory camp, they'll get the vocal sort of veteran.

JASONSAUTO
06-01-2009, 06:35 PM
My opinion of Haley has been exactly the opposite. I was kinda optimistic at first.

Now after seeing the following...

Pioli tap at his watch telling Haley to speed it up at a presser
HOW do you know that the time wasnt just up?

and how he handled Waters who plays one of our weakest positions

maybe Waters should be more respectful himself

and how he didn't give an accurate answer of where his first round pick is going to play when he said he would play on the open side

maybe they hadnt decided that (he WAS an offensive coach by the way)

and after signing a bunch of old players
team needed veteran leadership

I'm beginning to think that Haley is more of yes man to Pioli.

most headcoaches are

my take

Chaunceythe3rd
06-01-2009, 07:44 PM
Jeez, next you'll be saying Cassel is a mediocre QB. :eek:

Nope, Matt excelled when given his chance. Only time will tell with Pioli, Haley and Pendergast in a bottom-dwelling franchise. Pioli had much more support and a much better coach in NE. That's all.

Raised On Riots
06-01-2009, 07:51 PM
Nope, Matt excelled when given his chance. Only time will tell with Pioli, Haley and Pendergast in a bottom-dwelling franchise. Pioli had much more support and a much better coach in NE. That's all.

Chauncey, you are a douche.

BarrySPAMAID
06-02-2009, 12:02 PM
Nope, Matt excelled when given his chance. Only time will tell with Pioli, Haley and Pendergast in a bottom-dwelling franchise. Pioli had much more support and a much better coach in NE. That's all.

What a crock of SHIT. The sky is falling, and I dont know who's gonna change my diaper!!!

YOUR A FUCKING CHIEF, cmon..

Carry on

bdeg
06-02-2009, 12:41 PM
...

I agree with Chauncey. I think Pioli and Haley will be successful, but right now they haven't proven they can do it on their own.