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banyon
05-31-2009, 04:54 PM
Tiller's murder stains anti-abortion leaders
http://voices.kansascity.com/node/4731
By Yael T. Abouhalkah, Kansas City Star Editorial Page columnist

The outspoken leaders of anti-abortion groups can save their feeble "we're shocked and saddened" statements. They are privately pleased at George Tiller's murder on Sunday.

They have wanted Tiller out of the way for years. He has been fought in the courts, and won. He has been shot before, and survived.

But not this time, not when a (likely) anti-abortion nut got too close and killed Tiller at a church service.

People who genuinely abhor the killing of unborn children -- and there are many of these well-meaning people in the anti-abortion movement -- have a right to be very worried right now.

Yes, there is likely to be a backlash against the anti-abortion movement from Americans who abhor the killing of someone just because he or she disagrees with your view.

George Tiller performed a legal service as a physician. Yes, it was controversial, and it endangered his life.

But the kind of movement that wanted Tiller dead finally succeeded in their cause on Sunday. It's a stain on their cause, one that will last many years.


Randall Terry not sad

Abortion foes fear backlash to Tiller's murder

By DAVID CRARY
AP National Writer


NEW YORK (AP) -- Anti-abortion leaders voiced concern Sunday that the Obama administration and other Democrats may try to capitalize on the murder of Dr. George Tiller to defuse the abortion issue in upcoming Supreme Court confirmation hearings.

Many anti-abortion groups condemned the killing of Tiller, a prominent abortion provider who was shot dead at his church in Wichita, Kan. But they expressed concern that abortion-rights activists would use the occasion to brand the entire anti-abortion movement as extremist.

They also worried that there would now be an effort to stifle anti-abortion viewpoints during questioning of Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor. Her exact views on abortion aren't known, but conservatives fear she supports abortion rights.

Said the Rev. Patrick Mahoney, an anti-abortion activist: "No one should use this tragedy for political gain."

Tiller, one the few American doctors specializing in late-term abortions, had been the target of repeated protests and harassment for many years, and he was wounded by gunfire from an anti-abortion activist in 1993.

"It is abhorrent that once again, individuals who oppose the right to choose have used violence to try to advance their extreme anti-choice agenda," said Vicki Saporta, president and CEO of the National Abortion Federation.

While many anti-abortion leaders swiftly issued statements condemning the shooting, their expressions of dismay were not echoed by Randall Terry, a veteran anti-abortion activist whose protests have often targeted Tiller.

"George Tiller was a mass murderer and we cannot stop saying that," Terry said. "He was an evil man - his hands were covered with blood."

Terry said he was now concerned that the Obama administration "will use Tiller's killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions."

A month ago, Terry was arrested protesting President Barack Obama's appearance at the University of Notre Dame commencement. The president's graduation speech was dominated by abortion issue - and an appeal for the nation to seek common ground instead of vitriol.

Mahoney said he had been conferring with other anti-abortion leaders about how to deal with any backlash to the Tiller killing that might undercut their cause at a time when they are trying to challenge Obama's support for abortion rights.

"I'd hope they wouldn't try to broad-brush the entire pro-life movement as some sort of extremist movement because of what happened in Wichita," Mahoney said. "That's really important - don't use this personal loss for a political gain."

He noted that abortion is likely to be one of the most contentious issues at Sotomayor's confirmation hearings, and expressed hope that the Tiller murder would not be raised there.

Abortion rights leaders reacted to the killing with shock and determination

Nancy Keenan, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, said the murder would "send a chill down the spines of the brave and courageous providers" offering abortion to American women.

"Violence and murder will never end the need for abortion," said Dr. Suzanne T. Poppema, board chair of Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health. "With great sadness and discouragement we call on the government to reactivate its protection system for our nation's abortion providers."

Kim Gandy, president of the National Organization for Women, said Tiller was aware of the dangers he faced, "yet he continued to protect his patients and provide safe and legal abortions to women in often-desperate circumstances."

She and other activists urged that Monday be observed as a national day of mourning for Tiller, as well as a day of commitment to the cause of abortion rights.

According to the National Abortion Federation, Tiller was the eighth U.S. abortion provider murdered since 1977, and 17 others had been targeted with attempted murder.

the Talking Can
05-31-2009, 05:03 PM
Time to deal with the American taliban

ClevelandBronco
05-31-2009, 05:07 PM
I'm sorry, if that means anything.

ClevelandBronco
05-31-2009, 05:14 PM
It's disgusting to me when a person is put to death by the state through a lawful process.

This is even more disgusting.

And yes, I'm thoroughly anti-abortion.

RedNeckRaider
05-31-2009, 05:22 PM
Late Term Abortion Care - Women's Health Care Services, P.A.
A safe & caring abortion facility - specializing in late abortion care for fetal anomaly and late abortion care elective ... Modified: July 28, 2003; (c) George R. Tiller, MD ... [late term abortion - abortion clinic - abortion care - Women's Health Care Services - Dr. George Tiller MD - Wichita, Kansas]
71k - 10 sec @ 56k www.drtiller.com/ www.drtiller.com/ ∑ Cached

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

The clinic itself is unusual in that it offers funerary services to its patients. Some of these services include photographs, footprinting and handprinting, baptism, cremation, arrangement for burial in or out of state, and arrangement for amniocentesis and/or autopsy.

Strange that his advertisment for late term abortion has already been taken down. Also if it really is not a baby, you know a living life form why would he offer the services above? Was it right for this guy to take his life? the answer is no. But I will shed no tears over his death.

ClevelandBronco
05-31-2009, 05:27 PM
...The clinic itself is unusual in that it offers funerary services to its patients. Some of these services include photographs, footprinting and handprinting, baptism, cremation, arrangement for burial in or out of state, and arrangement for amniocentesis and/or autopsy...

Oh My God.

WilliamTheIrish
05-31-2009, 05:30 PM
... Was it right for this guy to take his life? the answer is no. But I will shed no tears over his death.

I just don't get this line of thinking. Tiller performed a completely legal business and was murdered for it by some zealot.

Baby Lee
05-31-2009, 05:34 PM
I just don't get this line of thinking. Tiller performed a completely legal business and was murdered for it by some zealot.

'He's doing something legal' isn't the strongest of defenses when the very legality of the act is such a point of contention, and the version of the act he specializes in is the most egregious and shocking of the bunch.

I guess back in pre-civil war days you'd consider the slave trader a hero as well [and before you whelp your protests, I acknowledge that it was Talking Can who actually hailed him as his personal hero, I'm just consolidating for brevity].

Never had a glimmer of a thought of violence towards him, but I was entirely sanguine with the prospects of social approbation throughout his existence.

NewChief
05-31-2009, 05:35 PM
Late Term Abortion Care - Women's Health Care Services, P.A.
A safe & caring abortion facility - specializing in late abortion care for fetal anomaly and late abortion care elective ... Modified: July 28, 2003; (c) George R. Tiller, MD ... [late term abortion - abortion clinic - abortion care - Women's Health Care Services - Dr. George Tiller MD - Wichita, Kansas]
71k - 10 sec @ 56k www.drtiller.com/ www.drtiller.com/ ∑ Cached

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

The clinic itself is unusual in that it offers funerary services to its patients. Some of these services include photographs, footprinting and handprinting, baptism, cremation, arrangement for burial in or out of state, and arrangement for amniocentesis and/or autopsy.

Strange that his advertisment for late term abortion has already been taken down. Also if it really is not a baby, you know a living life form why would he offer the services above? Was it right for this guy to take his life? the answer is no. But I will shed no tears over his death.


"Fetal Anomaly" is your answer. I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's very possible that some people find out that the fetus will have a horrible genetic mutation or that it's won't be viable outside the womb. It's possible that those same people make the heartbreaking decision to abort the fetus rather than carry it to term and deliver a still born, brain dead, etc... baby. Just because the people made the decision to abort doesn't mean that they aren't filled with sorrow and want some sort of arrangments for the fetus. I'm not saying that's the case for 100% of late term abortions, but I don't think that everyone who has one is embracing the decision with the lack of gravitas that anti-abortion literature would have us believe.

RedNeckRaider
05-31-2009, 05:39 PM
"Fetal Anomaly" is your answer. I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's very possible that some people find out that the fetus will have a horrible genetic mutation or that it's won't be viable outside the womb. It's possible that those same people make the heartbreaking decision to abort the fetus rather than carry it to term and deliver a still born, brain dead, etc... baby. Just because the people made the decision to abort doesn't mean that they aren't filled with sorrow and want some sort of arrangments for the fetus. I'm not saying that's the case for 100% of late term abortions, but I don't think that everyone who has one is embracing the decision with the lack of gravitas that anti-abortion literature would have us believe.
It was not

NewChief
05-31-2009, 05:43 PM
It was not

Right, but you expressed that you didn't understand a situation where someone would want to have a memorial service. I tried to outline one.

Saul Good
05-31-2009, 05:49 PM
I just don't get this line of thinking. Tiller performed a completely legal business and was murdered for it by some zealot.

It's legal to stone rape victims to death in some countries. I guess that makes those who carry out the killings civil servants.

RedNeckRaider
05-31-2009, 05:49 PM
Right, but you expressed that you didn't understand a situation where someone would want to have a memorial service. I tried to outline one.

I should have clarified my understanding.

|Zach|
05-31-2009, 05:50 PM
why would he offer the services above?

Comfort for the mothers. If that helped them in their journey.

WilliamTheIrish
05-31-2009, 05:59 PM
'He's doing something legal' isn't the strongest of defenses when the very legality of the act is such a point of contention, and the version of the act he specializes in is the most egregious and shocking of the bunch.

I guess back in pre-civil war days you'd consider the slave trader a hero as well [and before you whelp your protests, I acknowledge that it was Talking Can who actually hailed him as his personal hero, I'm just consolidating for brevity].

Never had a glimmer of a thought of violence towards him, but I was entirely sanguine with the prospects of social approbation throughout his existence.

I know how you feel.

Even though it's not okay to kill lawyers, who commit scourges daily that are far worse than anything Tiller ever did, I'd not say in the event of your untimely murder/death, "Well he defended child molesters, had their sentences reduced, and sometimes cross examined children harshly, lived well on the results, was bludgeoned to death by a fanatic and had his genitals torn off while alive....all in front of a church full of people".

I'm saddened, yet I'll not shed one tear....

I don't know George Tiller, don't know his practice. But I do find the attitude a little disturbing that the guy gets whacked in his church and a whole lot of CP religious types kind of him haw over that aspect his death.

WilliamTheIrish
05-31-2009, 06:01 PM
It's legal to stone rape victims to death in some countries. I guess that makes those who carry out the killings civil servants.

Why yes, that's exactly what I was saying. (If I were talking about other countries and stoning rape victims.)

Saul Good
05-31-2009, 06:05 PM
Why yes, that's exactly what I was saying. (If I were talking about other countries and stoning rape victims.)

You called it a perfectly legal business. In some countries, stoning rape victims is a perfectly legal business. Legality and morality tend to correlate, but not 100%.

BigRedChief
05-31-2009, 06:11 PM
You called it a perfectly legal business. In some countries, stoning rape victims is a perfectly legal business. Legality and morality tend to correlate, but not 100%.
Agree with the just because the government says its legal defense doesn't make it morally correct.

***SPRAYER
05-31-2009, 06:28 PM
The guy was 67, he was on his way to Hell, anyway. Oh well, he'll never kill another baby at least.

Baby Lee
05-31-2009, 07:06 PM
I know how you feel.

Even though it's not okay to kill lawyers, who commit scourges daily that are far worse than anything Tiller ever did, I'd not say in the event of your untimely murder/death, "Well he defended child molesters, had their sentences reduced, and sometimes cross examined children harshly, lived well on the results, was bludgeoned to death by a fanatic and had his genitals torn off while alive....all in front of a church full of people".

I'm saddened, yet I'll not shed one tear....

I don't know George Tiller, don't know his practice. But I do find the attitude a little disturbing that the guy gets whacked in his church and a whole lot of CP religious types kind of him haw over that aspect his death.

Us attorneys are a very skilled lot, even when we work insurance defense or contracts or probate or patents, if a molestation case comes our way we'll devote a few moments to present a brutally effective and proficent criminal defense, cuz that's how we roll.

Come to think of it, Tiller was a doctor, if he did partial birth abortions, all doctors probably did too, kill the pediatricians, neurosurgeons, radiologists and anesthesiologists.

This is fun.

irishjayhawk
05-31-2009, 07:48 PM
Time to deal with the American taliban

It's been here for years. People just don't want to acknowledge it. Nationalism and all.

wild1
05-31-2009, 07:53 PM
what a sniveling bullshit column. he's pissed that he doesn't have any "yay" quotes but he starts flailing at the movement anyway. "oh, they're saying them in private... trust me... " what a tool.

the Talking Can
05-31-2009, 07:53 PM
It's been here for years. People just don't want to acknowledge it. Nationalism and all.

it appears he was a member of Operation Rescue

no one can claim that their rhetoric is innocent, or that their harassment and murder of doctors practicing medicine is not terrorism...it is organized, planned, and executed to terrorize and kill professionals operating legally in what is supposedly a lawful society....

they are religious zealots targeting, hunting, and killing lawful members of society, mostly because they have the audacity to provide healthcare to women....Taliban, they are....

irishjayhawk
05-31-2009, 07:55 PM
it appears he was a member of Operation Rescue

no one can claim that their rhetoric is innocent, or that their harassment and murder of doctors practicing medicine is not terrorism...it is organized, planned, and executed to terrorize and kill professionals operating legally in what is supposedly a lawful society....

they are religious zealots targeting, hunting, and killing lawful members of society, mostly because they have the audacity to provide healthcare to women....Taliban, they are....

But we're 'Merican, ain't no terrorism here. We ain't no muslums.

banyon
05-31-2009, 08:02 PM
what a sniveling bullshit column. he's pissed that he doesn't have any "yay" quotes but he starts flailing at the movement anyway. "oh, they're saying them in private... trust me... " what a tool.

Actually there's a guy cheering it in public in the 2nd article right below the first one.

vailpass
05-31-2009, 08:54 PM
Comfort for the mothers. If that helped them in their journey.


Mothers? You know what has to be present to make them a mother?
You got it.

A child.

wild1
05-31-2009, 09:03 PM
Actually there's a guy cheering it in public in the 2nd article right below the first one.

I don't see any cheering. All I see is him saying that the fact that he was murdered does not mean he was a good person.


I remember when we captured Saddam Hussein. He was definitely an evil man. But if I had opened the top of his spider hole and put a bullet in his head that would have been wrong. It's not right to murder someone just because they were evil. 99.99% of people on earth understand that, despite the way columns and threads are created to give the other impression.

Am I sad about him being killed? No, I don't have any feelings of grief. Of course it's wrong, but am I personally grieved over it, no. I don't think anyone would have been 'sad' if Hussein had just been drug out and shot. It would have been wrong, but would the world have lost anything of value? No.

banyon
05-31-2009, 09:11 PM
I don't see any cheering. All I see is him saying that the fact that he was murdered does not mean he was a good person.


I remember when we captured Saddam Hussein. He was definitely an evil man. But if I had opened the top of his spider hole and put a bullet in his head that would have been wrong. It's not right to murder someone just because they were evil. 99.99% of people on earth understand that, despite the way columns and threads are created to give the other impression.

Am I sad about him being killed? No, I don't have any feelings of grief. Of course it's wrong, but am I personally grieved over it, no. I don't think anyone would have been 'sad' if Hussein had just been drug out and shot. It would have been wrong, but would the world have lost anything of value? No.

Yes, shooting defenseless people in the head is wrong. Just like shooting them in a church in front of their family.

the Talking Can
05-31-2009, 09:17 PM
so a doctor is now the same as Sadaam

a doctor practicing medicine in the U.S. is the same as Sadaam, according to the American christian right....


sorry, folks, but that is abominable....this is exactly why the anti-abortion rhetoric of the last 20 years is responsible for the terrorism now being visited on doctors....

wild1
05-31-2009, 09:22 PM
so a doctor is now the same as Sadaam

a doctor practicing medicine in the U.S. is the same as Sadaam, according to the American christian right....


sorry, folks, but that is abominable....this is exactly why the anti-abortion rhetoric of the last 20 years is responsible for the terrorism now being visited on doctors....

When did I identify with any religion? I simply see all people who kill the defenseless for their own benefit as being in the same category.

|Zach|
05-31-2009, 09:45 PM
Mothers? You know what has to be present to make them a mother?
You got it.

A child.

For someone always going off on people for being younger than you are your takes are often really shallow and simple.

Garcia Bronco
05-31-2009, 10:43 PM
At least he won't kill another baby. May God rest his soul.

Velvet_Jones
06-01-2009, 02:51 AM
I just don't get this line of thinking. Tiller performed a completely legal business and was murdered for it by some zealot.

I maybe mistaken but I seem to remember you going batshiate crazy about the oil companies completely legal business. If so, the irony is strong with you.

Velvet_Jones
06-01-2009, 02:55 AM
Mothers? You know what has to be present to make them a mother?
You got it.

A child.

Zach is a stupid kid. Stupid kids say stupid things sometimes.

Baby Lee
06-01-2009, 05:57 AM
so a doctor is now the same as Sadaam

a doctor practicing medicine in the U.S. is the same as Sadaam, according to the American christian right....


sorry, folks, but that is abominable....this is exactly why the anti-abortion rhetoric of the last 20 years is responsible for the terrorism now being visited on doctors....

Do you know how I know that you know how off base you are?

It's because you refuse to refer to the guy's activities as anything but 'practicing medicine.'

patteeu
06-01-2009, 06:08 AM
I just don't get this line of thinking. Tiller performed a completely legal business and was murdered for it by some zealot.

Tiller was a zealot too, fwiw. That doesn't justify the murder, but it's misleading to give the impression that Tiller was no different than any other doctor or legal businessman.

patteeu
06-01-2009, 06:13 AM
it appears he was a member of Operation Rescue

no one can claim that their rhetoric is innocent, or that their harassment and murder of doctors practicing medicine is not terrorism...it is organized, planned, and executed to terrorize and kill professionals operating legally in what is supposedly a lawful society....

they are religious zealots targeting, hunting, and killing lawful members of society, mostly because they have the audacity to provide healthcare to women....Taliban, they are....

:LOL: What a joke.

If he was a ChiefsPlanet member, does that make you a murderous zealot too?

BigRedChief
06-01-2009, 06:25 AM
:LOL: What a joke.

If he was a ChiefsPlanet member, does that make you a murderous zealot too?
so what was he in your book?

PunkinDrublic
06-01-2009, 06:29 AM
The guy was 67, he was on his way to Hell, anyway. Oh well, he'll never kill another baby at least.

While Tillers murderer will be rewarded with 12 virgins in heaven when he dies. I'm embarrassed to be from Kansas sometimes. It's unfortunate that it has to be infested with these talibaptist parasites. I hope the hospital hires 3 additional doctors to replace Tiller.

the Talking Can
06-01-2009, 06:36 AM
:LOL: What a joke.

If he was a ChiefsPlanet member, does that make you a murderous zealot too?

man you are dumb, i had forgotten just how stupid you were....like so dumb that it hurts all of us in your vicinity...

patteeu
06-01-2009, 06:39 AM
so what was he in your book?

What was who? Both Tiller and his killer (and probably the Talking Can) were/are zealots, but the point of my response to the Talking Can was that the sins of the specific killer do not belong to the other members of the organizations to which he belonged (unless a true conspiracy existed).

patteeu
06-01-2009, 06:40 AM
man you are dumb, i had forgotten just how stupid you were....like so dumb that it hurts all of us in your vicinity...

:grouphug: Hugs not drugs!

BigRedChief
06-01-2009, 06:40 AM
What was who? Both Tiller and his killer were zealots, but the point of my response to the Talking Can was that the sins of the specific killer do not belong to the other members of the organizations to which he belonged (unless a true conspiracy existed).
I was asking what you called the guy who murdered Tiller if not a terriost?

patteeu
06-01-2009, 06:42 AM
I was asking what you called the guy who murdered Tiller if not a terriost?

He's a murderer. And I've already called him a zealot. Why do you ask?

Radar Chief
06-01-2009, 06:46 AM
While Tillers murderer will be rewarded with 12 virgins in heaven when he dies. I'm embarrassed to be from Kansas sometimes. It's unfortunate that it has to be infested with these talibaptist parasites. I hope the hospital hires 3 additional doctors to replace Tiller.

Thatís ok, weíre often embarrassed youíre from here so it evens out.

Radar Chief
06-01-2009, 06:57 AM
I was asking what you called the guy who murdered Tiller if not a terriost?

Assassin? From what Iíve been reading it sounds like he had a single goal, target, in mind the entire time. :shrug:

BigRedChief
06-01-2009, 07:03 AM
He's a murderer. And I've already called him a zealot. Why do you ask?
A murderer doesn't fit for the level of crime. There were political and religious motives were there not? This was not a carjacking gone bad.

Chief Henry
06-01-2009, 07:44 AM
so a doctor is now the same as Sadaam

a doctor practicing medicine in the U.S. is the same as Sadaam, according to the American christian right....


sorry, folks, but that is abominable....this is exactly why the anti-abortion rhetoric of the last 20 years is responsible for the terrorism now being visited on doctors....



so a doctor Killing a defenseless child is NOT abominable...in your words !

Baby Lee
06-01-2009, 07:51 AM
so a doctor Killing a defenseless child is NOT abominable...in your words !

Not unless abominable means heroic. ;)

J Diddy
06-01-2009, 07:57 AM
Tiller was a zealot too, fwiw. That doesn't justify the murder, but it's misleading to give the impression that Tiller was no different than any other doctor or legal businessman.

and how exactly was he a zealot or different than any other doctor or legal business man?

blaise
06-01-2009, 08:01 AM
so a doctor is now the same as Sadaam

a doctor practicing medicine in the U.S. is the same as Sadaam, according to the American christian right....


sorry, folks, but that is abominable....this is exactly why the anti-abortion rhetoric of the last 20 years is responsible for the terrorism now being visited on doctors....

So you can't be opposed to abortion? That's like saying people arguing for civil rights are responsible for a racially motivated crime. It's nice that generalizations about the so-called "American Christian Right" are acceptable, when the same people making these generalizations would be the same people decrying those who would do the same about any other group aside from Christians and Republicans.

blaise
06-01-2009, 08:20 AM
I bet some of the people here connecting the views and beliefs of Christians in America to this psycho are some of the same people who were saying there’s no connection between the views and beliefs of Reverend Wright and Obama.

irishjayhawk
06-01-2009, 08:38 AM
so a doctor Killing a defenseless child is NOT abominable...in your words !

See, to be a child, one must be born.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/child

blaise
06-01-2009, 09:00 AM
See, to be a child, one must be born.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/child

#4 on the definition you linked to says "human fetus".

irishjayhawk
06-01-2009, 09:03 AM
#4 on the definition you linked to says "human fetus".

Yes, I'm well aware.

Notice you have to go all the way down to #4. And furthermore, I'd be more surprised if they didn't have that in there just to appease people.

Again, it comes down to one's view on where life begins. And where there is irreconcilable differences, there shouldn't be a law one way or the other. That's what's brilliant about the current situation. If you don't like abortions, don't have one.

blaise
06-01-2009, 09:10 AM
Yes, I'm well aware.

Notice you have to go all the way down to #4. And furthermore, I'd be more surprised if they didn't have that in there just to appease people.

Again, it comes down to one's view on where life begins. And where there is irreconcilable differences, there shouldn't be a law one way or the other. That's what's brilliant about the current situation. If you don't like abortions, don't have one.

There's plenty of definitions with multiple entries, and simply because one of them is #4 or 5 or 6 doesn't make it false. And as far as being surprised they did it to appease people- that just sounds like you're using your own prejudices to make assumptions. You can argue about where life begins, but if you're pretending that a person can't view an unborn baby as a child, you're wrong. A lot of people do, and I doubt most of them are some sort of religious zealot. But I know you hate religion and Christianity and you'll use a situation like this as some sort of political opportunity, so carry on.

stevieray
06-01-2009, 09:12 AM
I bet some of the people here connecting the views and beliefs of Christians in America to this psycho are some of the same people who were saying thereís no connection between the views and beliefs of Reverend Wright and Obama.

..or if someone shot Fred Phelps, think they'd be parading out his first amendment right? or would they be cheering?

:doh!:

Al Bundy
06-01-2009, 09:36 AM
..or if someone shot Fred Phelps, think they'd be parading out his first amendment right? or would they be cheering?

:doh!:

I don't like what Phelps has to say and have had a confrontation with his people, but I wouldn't celebrate his death. I just have never celebrated anyone's death.

patteeu
06-01-2009, 01:23 PM
A murderer doesn't fit for the level of crime. There were political and religious motives were there not? This was not a carjacking gone bad.

I think murderer does fit the crime, but if you want to call him a terrorist, you've got my blessing. Assassin also works for me. Any particular reason why you're so insistent on "terrorist"?

banyon
06-01-2009, 01:26 PM
I think murderer does fit the crime, but if you want to call him a terrorist, you've got my blessing. Assassin also works for me. Any particular reason why you're so insistent on "terrorist"?

You and Randall Terry, huh? I don't know if that's a camp i would want to align myself with for very long.

patteeu
06-01-2009, 01:31 PM
and how exactly was he a zealot or different than any other doctor or legal business man?

He was an extremist practicing an extreme procedure in pursuit of a cause that he enthusiastically supported. Some doctors and legal businessmen are zealots for various causes and others are not.

patteeu
06-01-2009, 01:32 PM
You and Randall Terry, huh? I don't know if that's a camp i would want to align myself with for very long.

I don't know anything about Randall Terry's response to this murder (other than what's in the OP). Did he say the same thing I did? If so, I think he's right.

Baby Lee
06-01-2009, 01:34 PM
He was an extremist practicing an extreme procedure in pursuit of a cause that he enthusiastically supported. Some doctors and legal businessmen are zealots for various causes and others are not.

Now, now. All us attorneys take our turn at traumatizing children to secure acquittals for molesters. It's why we practice.

mlyonsd
06-01-2009, 01:36 PM
Any particular reason why you're so insistent on "terrorist"?

It's evident to me they're trying to implant the idea that pro-lifer's are terrorists.

patteeu
06-01-2009, 01:36 PM
Yes, I'm well aware.

Notice you have to go all the way down to #4. And furthermore, I'd be more surprised if they didn't have that in there just to appease people.

Again, it comes down to one's view on where life begins. And where there is irreconcilable differences, there shouldn't be a law one way or the other. That's what's brilliant about the current situation. If you don't like abortions, don't have one.

I think we all (including you) would agree that defining the beginning of life based upon an entry found on dictionary.com is ridiculous. Don't compound the ridiculousness by arbitrarily suggesting that the #4 definition doesn't count.

vailpass
06-01-2009, 01:39 PM
For someone always going off on people for being younger than you are your takes are often really shallow and simple.

Hi Zach. What about my post was shallow/simple? Are you equating concise with empty?

patteeu
06-01-2009, 01:40 PM
It's evident to me they're trying to implant the idea that pro-lifer's are terrorists.

Have they gotten to the step where they suggest that the GWoT ought to be targeting pro-life groups as well as anti-American, islamist jihad groups and their state sponsors yet?

mlyonsd
06-01-2009, 01:45 PM
Have they gotten to the step where they suggest that the GWoT ought to be targeting pro-life groups as well as anti-American, islamist jihad groups and their state sponsors yet?

I didn't have time to read the entire thread but there have been a few "what are we going to do about christian extremist groups" posts. Which is getting pretty close to what you're suggesting.

NewChief
06-01-2009, 02:01 PM
To continue with what I had posted yesterday, here are the stories of some of the patients that elected to have late term abortions:
http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/

Truly heartwrenching reading, but it gives you an idea of the painful deliberation many of these people made before electing to have a late term abortion.

BigRedChief
06-01-2009, 02:21 PM
I think murderer does fit the crime, but if you want to call him a terrorist, you've got my blessing. Assassin also works for me. Any particular reason why you're so insistent on "terrorist"?
Put him in Gitmo?:rolleyes:

wild1
06-01-2009, 02:24 PM
To continue with what I had posted yesterday, here are the stories of some of the patients that elected to have late term abortions:
http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/

Truly heartwrenching reading, but it gives you an idea of the painful deliberation many of these people made before electing to have a late term abortion.

Why is it heartbreaking? Nothing but tissue, like a cyst or a wart or a boil. Who would be heartbroken about it...?

Cannibal
06-01-2009, 02:27 PM
To continue with what I had posted yesterday, here are the stories of some of the patients that elected to have late term abortions:
http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/

Truly heartwrenching reading, but it gives you an idea of the painful deliberation many of these people made before electing to have a late term abortion.

Evidently there are were only three doctors in the entire country that would help women like them. Now there are only two.

patteeu
06-01-2009, 02:36 PM
Put him in Gitmo?:rolleyes:

That's ridiculous. This has nothing to do with the war we're in.

KC native
06-01-2009, 02:38 PM
That's ridiculous. This has nothing to do with the war we're in.

Well, he is a talabangelical.

dirk digler
06-01-2009, 02:43 PM
It's evident to me they're trying to implant the idea that pro-lifer's are terrorists.

They are ;)

mlyonsd
06-01-2009, 02:50 PM
Evidently there are were only three doctors in the entire country that would help women like them. Now there are only two.

A dog getting euthanized by a vet gets better treatment than a late term aborted fetus.

Cannibal
06-01-2009, 02:50 PM
Pro-lifers aren't terrorists. They are people who have an opinion.

However, right wing radicals that blow up abortion clinics and assassinate doctors are domestic terrorists.

patteeu
06-01-2009, 02:59 PM
Pro-lifers aren't terrorists. They are people who have an opinion.

However, right wing radicals that blow up abortion clinics and assassinate doctors are domestic terrorists.

Maybe so, but they are an insignificant problem that seems to be well under control these days, despite the latest incident.

Cannibal
06-01-2009, 03:10 PM
Maybe so, but they are an insignificant problem that seems to be well under control these days, despite the latest incident.

I agree. But I believe it will rachet up for the next 3.5 (possibly 7.5) with a pro-choice Prez.

patteeu
06-01-2009, 03:13 PM
I agree. But I believe it will rachet up for the next 3.5 (possibly 7.5) with a pro-choice Prez.

You could be right about that.

That's another reason to get rid of Obama as soon as possible. ;)

Cannibal
06-01-2009, 03:19 PM
You could be right about that.

That's another reason to get rid of Obama as soon as possible. ;)

I don't think letting terrorists determine who should be our President is good policy ;)

Chief Henry
06-01-2009, 03:28 PM
Pro-lifers aren't terrorists. They are people who have an opinion.

However, right wing radicals that blow up abortion clinics and assassinate doctors are domestic terrorists.



Pro-choicers aren't killers. They are people with an opinion.

However, left wing radicals that kill babies who's feet are already out of the mother - but insert an instrument into the head of the baby BEFORE its head is out of the mother are killers.

Is that a hate crime ?

Baby Lee
06-01-2009, 03:28 PM
Pro-lifers aren't terrorists. They are people who have an opinion.

However, right wing radicals that blow up abortion clinics and assassinate doctors are domestic terrorists.

A distinction lost on

[W]e already know the identities of his accomplices. They include every one who has ever called Tiller's late term abortion clinic a murder mill. Who ever called Tiller "Tiller the Killer." ... Hate. Not heated opposition. Not strong disagreement. But blind hatred. ... His accomplices know they have blood on their hands, which might explain why they were quick to issue statements today expressing disapproval of Tiller's murder.

Cannibal
06-01-2009, 03:31 PM
A distinction lost on

Mike Hendricks of the KC Star is wrong, I agree. But while those people are not domestic terrorists and have the right to say what they say, I believe they do incite them to a degree.

Baby Lee
06-01-2009, 03:35 PM
Mike Hendricks of the KC Star is wrong, I agree. But while those people are not domestic terrorists and have the right to say what they say, I believe they do incite them to a degree.

I wonder, when it comes down to brass tacks, how true that is. Possibly if everyone he came into contact with were universally supportive, it might create a false sense of consensus. But he doesn't strike me as someone who was wishy-washy on the issue, or had to be talked into the deed.

Cannibal
06-01-2009, 03:37 PM
Pro-choicers aren't killers. They are people with an opinion.

However, left wing radicals that kill babies who's feet are already out of the mother - but insert an instrument into the head of the baby BEFORE its head is out of the mother are killers.

Is that a hate crime ?

You act like third trimester abortion from welfare queens on crack comprise 100% of abortion. There were 3 doctors in the entire country that performed them (down to 2) and they do them due to serious, serious health concerns. Your opinion is rudimentary and ill informed as usual.

Cannibal
06-01-2009, 03:41 PM
I wonder, when it comes down to brass tacks, how true that is. Possibly if everyone he came into contact with were universally supportive, it might create a false sense of consensus. But he doesn't strike me as someone who was wishy-washy on the issue, or had to be talked into the deed.

In my opinion it is true.

I realize it is the Huffington post, so you may choose to disregard it completely if you wish, some people do. But here is a thoughtful article written by a former self proclaimed representative of the Religious Right.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/how-i-and-other-pro-life_b_209747.html#postComment

Chief Henry
06-01-2009, 03:43 PM
You act like third trimester abortion from welfare queens on crack comprise 100% of abortion. There were 3 doctors in the entire country that performed them (down to 2) and they do them due to serious, serious health concerns. Your opinion is rudimentary and ill informed as usual.

You act like you don't like your words used on your opinions and thoughts.

Baby Lee
06-01-2009, 03:51 PM
In my opinion it is true.

I realize it is the Huffington post, so you may choose to disregard it completely if you wish, some people do. But here is a thoughtful article written by a former self proclaimed representative of the Religious Right.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/how-i-and-other-pro-life_b_209747.html#postComment


Basically 'it's a tad incendiary to call them murderers, particularly since it looks so much like murder.'

RedNeckRaider
06-01-2009, 03:51 PM
You act like third trimester abortion from welfare queens on crack comprise 100% of abortion. There were 3 doctors in the entire country that performed them (down to 2) and they do them due to serious, serious health concerns. Your opinion is rudimentary and ill informed as usual.

Does knowing that a child will be handicapped or have an illness justify a third trimester abortion in your mind?

oldandslow
06-01-2009, 03:54 PM
In my opinion it is true.

I realize it is the Huffington post, so you may choose to disregard it completely if you wish, some people do. But here is a thoughtful article written by a former self proclaimed representative of the Religious Right.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/how-i-and-other-pro-life_b_209747.html#postComment

Wow. Thanks for posting. I remember when the senior Schaffer alinged with Falwell and his ilk in the late 70's.

Interesting that the son has such intense second thoughts.

Cannibal
06-01-2009, 07:12 PM
Does knowing that a child will be handicapped or have an illness justify a third trimester abortion in your mind?

Depends on what that illness or handicap is I guess.

blaise
06-01-2009, 08:37 PM
It's evident to me they're trying to implant the idea that pro-lifer's are terrorists.

It's a tool of small mindedness- categorize people and that way you can minimalize their arguments and cast them in a villainous light. Racist, homophobe, neocon, sexist, jingoist, racial slurs etc.

irishjayhawk
06-01-2009, 08:38 PM
It's a tool of small mindedness- categorize people and that way you can minimalize their arguments and cast them in a villainous light. Racist, homophobe, neocon, sexist, jingoist, racial slurs etc.

When you (pro-lifers) stop equating pro-choice with pro-abortion or pro-death, you can pull this argument.

Velvet_Jones
06-01-2009, 08:43 PM
Pro-choicers aren't killers. They are people with an opinion.

However, left wing radicals that kill babies who's feet are already out of the mother - but insert an instrument into the head of the baby BEFORE its head is out of the mother are killers.

Is that a hate crime ?

So they only abort Breech births. Either this is true or you don't know what you are talking about. I would wager on the latter.

Velvet_Jones
06-01-2009, 08:50 PM
it appears he was a member of Operation Rescue

no one can claim that their rhetoric is innocent, or that their harassment and murder of doctors practicing medicine is not terrorism...it is organized, planned, and executed to terrorize and kill professionals operating legally in what is supposedly a lawful society....

they are religious zealots targeting, hunting, and killing lawful members of society, mostly because they have the audacity to provide healthcare to women....Taliban, they are....

Do you have a brother or sister? If so and, if they unfortunately murdered someone. Then you are just as bad as you sister or brother because you had a connection to them. Good luck with that thought process.

Velvet_Jones
06-01-2009, 08:53 PM
When you (pro-lifers) stop equating pro-choice with pro-abortion or pro-death, you can pull this argument.

So you are saying that you have no conviction. No wonder you support Obama.

Sully
06-01-2009, 08:55 PM
It's a tool of small mindedness- categorize people and that way you can minimalize their arguments and cast them in a villainous light. Racist, homophobe, neocon, sexist, jingoist, racial slurs etc.

Liberal, godless, eurofag, Marxist, socialist, commie, elitist, pro-abortion...etc. I agree.

Velvet_Jones
06-01-2009, 09:11 PM
Well, he is a talabangelical.

Sure he is. Keep that up skippy. This will serve you well.

blaise
06-01-2009, 09:57 PM
Liberal, godless, europillowbiter, Marxist, socialist, commie, elitist, pro-abortion...etc. I agree.

Yep, nice to see you agree with me.

blaise
06-01-2009, 09:59 PM
When you (pro-lifers) stop equating pro-choice with pro-abortion or pro-death, you can pull this argument.

I never made that equation. Secondly, by trying to limit my argument by attaching a label to me you're sort of proving my point for me, aren't you?

irishjayhawk
06-01-2009, 10:14 PM
I never made that equation. Secondly, by trying to limit my argument by attaching a label to me you're sort of proving my point for me, aren't you?

Notice the (pro-lifers) meaning you was used in the general sense. If, however, you're not pro-life, my apologies.

irishjayhawk
06-01-2009, 10:14 PM
So you are saying that you have no conviction. No wonder you support Obama.

:spock:

What?

blaise
06-01-2009, 10:25 PM
Notice the (pro-lifers) meaning you was used in the general sense. If, however, you're not pro-life, my apologies.

Gotcha, so pro-lifers in a general sense are unable to suggest anyone else is close minded. How convenient for you.

irishjayhawk
06-01-2009, 10:27 PM
Gotcha, so pro-lifers in a general sense are unable to suggest anyone else is close minded. How convenient for you.

That's not what I said.

I said you can have your argument with regard to labels as soon as the pro-life crowd (which seemed to be what you were tacitly defending) gives up their own label game with pro-abortion and pro-death. Instead of, you know, the more accurate term: pro-choice.

I cannot believe you haven't comprehended that. I don't know how to be clearer.

blaise
06-01-2009, 10:34 PM
That's not what I said.

I said you can have your argument with regard to labels as soon as the pro-life crowd (which seemed to be what you were tacitly defending) gives up their own label game with pro-abortion and pro-death. Instead of, you know, the more accurate term: pro-choice.

I cannot believe you haven't comprehended that. I don't know how to be clearer.

Your argument is asinine. So because some people (not all, but some)use "pro-death", no one with a pro-life stance is able to suggest anyone else is attaching labels, even when people do.
Simply because someone in a pro-life group attaches a label such as pro-death doesn't mean someone on the other side doing the same thing is justified. If it's closed minded, it's close minded. If you want me to say that someone attaching the label "pro-death" is trying to oversimplify and categorize- ok, it's wrong, there you go.
Now my argument is valid in your eyes. Hope that's clear enough for you.

irishjayhawk
06-01-2009, 10:56 PM
Your argument is asinine. So because some people (not all, but some)use "pro-death", no one with a pro-life stance is able to suggest anyone else is attaching labels, even when people do.
Simply because someone in a pro-life group attaches a label such as pro-death doesn't mean someone on the other side doing the same thing is justified. If it's closed minded, it's close minded. If you want me to say that someone attaching the label "pro-death" is trying to oversimplify and categorize- ok, it's wrong, there you go.
Now my argument is valid in your eyes. Hope that's clear enough for you.

We're saying the same thing, I think. Mine was a point-in-case of your point, more or less.

blaise
06-01-2009, 11:06 PM
We're saying the same thing, I think. Mine was a point-in-case of your point, more or less.

Fair enough.

Adept Havelock
06-02-2009, 03:14 PM
It's evident to me they're trying to implant the idea that pro-lifer's are terrorists.

AFAICS, only when referring to extremist Pro-Lifers who plan and carry out assassinations, while belonging to organizations who don't recognize the authority of the Federal Govt., and who also have been arrested for illegally possessing/transporting bomb-making materials in their past.

Sounds like a terrorist to me. :shrug:

JohnnyV13
06-02-2009, 07:45 PM
Now, now. All us attorneys take our turn at traumatizing children to secure acquittals for molesters. It's why we practice.

Baby, lets hang out at the next child traumatizing event. We can do lunch and swap molester acquittal stories.