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View Full Version : Economics GM's $40k Volt.....


petegz28
06-02-2009, 09:14 AM
Saw a deal on Fox Business this morning with some big-wig at GM and it seems that they are banking on a $40k car and the small Obama Shit-boxes to complete with Honda and Toyota.

Are you ****ing kidding me? Seriously? In this economy? This is the grand scheme? This is what billions of our tax $'s are being dumped on?

$40k on a GM car that isn't called Caddilac?

Brock
06-02-2009, 09:16 AM
Pretty silly, when you can buy a hybrid for half that.

dirk digler
06-02-2009, 09:16 AM
I was curious what the final price of the Volt would be. I was hoping they would make it cheap enough for people to buy them in mass.

I think the fuel-Cell car Honda made is around the same price unfortunately as well.

Amnorix
06-02-2009, 09:18 AM
Have never understood the Volt. Seemed like a terrible idea, business-model-wise, from the get-go.

The New GM might be reasonably competitive, however, if all goes reasonably well. The cost of production should be waaay down.

Honestly, though, they should sweep out old GM management and bring in non-car management. GM's management had rocks in their heads.

petegz28
06-02-2009, 09:19 AM
I was curious what the final price of the Volt would be. I was hoping they would make it cheap enough for people to buy them in mass.

I think the fuel-Cell car Honda made is around the same price unfortunately as well.

But Honda has the reputation that if you spend $40k on a Honda you are getting your money's worth. GM doesn't have that. Honda is not filing for bankruptcy either cause even if people don't by their $40k car, the rest of their cars are all over the streets. GM can't say that.

Amnorix
06-02-2009, 09:21 AM
But Honda has the reputation that if you spend $40k on a Honda you are getting your money's worth. GM doesn't have that. Honda is not filing for bankruptcy either cause even if people don't by their $40k car, the rest of their cars are all over the streets. GM can't say that.

Honda and Toyota are also having terrible years, in case you didn't know. At the current rate of 9.5 million new car sales per annum, everyone is getting killed.

Ford is picking up market share, but post bankrutpcies, GM and Chrysler may be better off with lower debt loads.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:22 AM
The Volt concept make a lot of sense. But the price still needs to come down to at least $30k.

blaise
06-02-2009, 09:24 AM
Howie Long says you're a pussy if you don't buy one.

Amnorix
06-02-2009, 09:25 AM
The Volt concept make a lot of sense. But the price still needs to come down to at least $30k.

Right, but selling htem at a $10+K loss per car is retarded.

Amnorix
06-02-2009, 09:28 AM
Where's whathisface, anyway? The ultra right wing nut job who spent alot of time on here pimping GM because his dad had worked there for 35 years or whatever?

Haven't seen him around lately....

He had some really brilliant defenses of GM. :rolleyes:

dirk digler
06-02-2009, 09:29 AM
But Honda has the reputation that if you spend $40k on a Honda you are getting your money's worth. GM doesn't have that. Honda is not filing for bankruptcy either cause even if people don't by their $40k car, the rest of their cars are all over the streets. GM can't say that.

Well the Civic's and the Accords are reasonable. You can get a Civic for $17000-$20000.

I was just hoping that both of those cars would be cheaper so alot of people would buy them. I guess it is like everything else the first models are high and in probably in a year or 2 the prices will drop dramatically. At least that is what I am hoping anyway.

HonestChieffan
06-02-2009, 09:30 AM
Its a grand idea. Force the car companies to design a car that the specs are set by Congress. Then require a bunch of smog controls and mileage requirements that are pulled out of the sky in a meeting.

Then, forget the inventory of cars on the road. That is irrelevant. Claim a huge win and the solution to global warming, greed, outbreaks of locusts, and the discovery of BigFoot all as a result of making a little dangerous clown car that will work in Shriners Parades for years to come.

New Briggs and Stratton Motors and 6 speed auto tranny....Ye Haa. Life is good.

petegz28
06-02-2009, 09:30 AM
Honda and Toyota are also having terrible years, in case you didn't know. At the current rate of 9.5 million new car sales per annum, everyone is getting killed.

Ford is picking up market share, but post bankrutpcies, GM and Chrysler may be better off with lower debt loads.

Honda and Toyota are not having to file bankruptcy. Therefore while they are in the same boat as everyone else, they are not as bad as Chrysler and GM.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:31 AM
Right, but selling htem at a $10+K loss per car is retarded.

I agree.

blaise
06-02-2009, 09:32 AM
Honda and Toyota are not having to file bankruptcy. Therefore while they are in the same boat as everyone else, they are not as bad as Chrysler and GM.

They also have the advantage of a perception of better quality and reliability.

blaise
06-02-2009, 09:33 AM
Right, but selling htem at a $10+K loss per car is retarded.

That's true, but if they end up sitting on dealership lots they be depreciating anyway.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:33 AM
http://keetsa.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/chevy-volt-tax-credit.jpg

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:34 AM
http://www.edmunds.com/media/advice/fueleconomy/plugin.hybrids.3/int.500.jpg

dirk digler
06-02-2009, 09:36 AM
Its a grand idea. Force the car companies to design a car that the specs are set by Congress. Then require a bunch of smog controls and mileage requirements that are pulled out of the sky in a meeting.

Then, forget the inventory of cars on the road. That is irrelevant. Claim a huge win and the solution to global warming, greed, outbreaks of locusts, and the discovery of BigFoot all as a result of making a little dangerous clown car that will work in Shriners Parades for years to come.

New Briggs and Stratton Motors and 6 speed auto tranny....Ye Haa. Life is good.

You do realize GM has been working on the Volt for a very long time?

PhillyChiefFan
06-02-2009, 09:37 AM
They also have the advantage of a perception of better quality and reliability.

And will be for years to come.

People aren't going to forget the quality that GM and Chrysler pimped on US buyers for years.

It also wasn't just the quality, the designs were boring and similar year after year.

blaise
06-02-2009, 09:37 AM
It looks good.

PhillyChiefFan
06-02-2009, 09:38 AM
But that isn't the current version of the Volt is it?

I thought that they now looked like a Malibu?

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:38 AM
Unfortunately, those are the concept photos I think. Yeah, the concept looked really good. The production version doesn't look as good.

Chief Faithful
06-02-2009, 09:39 AM
Right, but selling htem at a $10+K loss per car is retarded.

At least we would get something for all that bail-out money.

blaise
06-02-2009, 09:39 AM
And will be for years to come.

People aren't going to forget the quality that GM and Chrysler pimped on US buyers for years.

It also wasn't just the quality, the designs were boring and similar year after year.

I agree. I do think the style of American cars is getting better though.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:39 AM
Production interior. It is still nice, but not as cool as the concept.

http://img.worldcarfans.com/2008/11/medium/chevy-volt-interior-revised.jpg

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:42 AM
Production exterior.

http://go635254.s3.amazonaws.com/gas2/files/2009/04/ev5volt_exterior1.jpg

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:43 AM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/09/17/automobiles/533-volt-production.jpg

petegz28
06-02-2009, 09:44 AM
I'd like to own one. But I will not pay $40k for a car. Fuck I won't pay $20k for a car unless it is a toy like my Camaro.

blaise
06-02-2009, 09:45 AM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/09/17/automobiles/533-volt-production.jpg



Meh. I don't know about 40,000. I wonder if the 40,000 is some fake MSRP or if they're really estimating it will cost around there, and what's standard at that price.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:46 AM
It does not look like a $40k vehicle. However, people need to keep in mind that it is a plug in hybrid. You can do average daily commutes without putting a drop of gas in it. It is also classified as extended range. You can fill the tank with either E85 or regular unleaded and drive it for almost 700 miles. The gas engine is not connected to the power train. The gas engine is connected to a generator that provides power for the electric motor.

Is all that worth $40k? I don't know. I doubt I would pay that much without some sort of rebates.

Amnorix
06-02-2009, 09:48 AM
Honda and Toyota are not having to file bankruptcy. Therefore while they are in the same boat as everyone else, they are not as bad as Chrysler and GM.

errrr....yeah. Thanks for that newsflash.

The point is that the post-bankruptcy Chrysler and New GM may be in a much better position to compete. GM's death isn't something that happened overnight. It's been slowly dying for at least five years.

dirk digler
06-02-2009, 09:49 AM
It does not look like a $40k vehicle. However, people need to keep in mind that it is a plug in hybrid. You can do average daily commutes without putting a drop of gas in it. It is also classified as extended range. You can fill the tank with either E85 or regular unleaded and drive it for almost 700 miles. The gas engine is not connected to the power train. The gas engine is connected to a generator that provides power for the electric motor.

Is all that worth $40k? I don't know. I doubt I would pay that much without some sort of rebates.

I am curious since the government owns them now if they won't use some rebates, subsidies, tax credits to help pay for it?

Amnorix
06-02-2009, 09:49 AM
That's true, but if they end up sitting on dealership lots they be depreciating anyway.

Such accounting games is part of how GM ended up in bankruptcy.

A depreciating asset doesn't put money in your wallet. The point is to SELL cars, not have them depreciating...

blaise
06-02-2009, 09:50 AM
Such accounting games is part of how GM ended up in bankruptcy.

A depreciating asset doesn't put money in your wallet. The point is to SELL cars, not have them depreciating...

I know. That's what I meant.

Amnorix
06-02-2009, 09:50 AM
At least we would get something for all that bail-out money.

That's another issue. How the hell do we get out of a 60% stock ownership position without tanking the stock?!?!

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:50 AM
Price
In the U.S. market, the price of the Volt is expected to be around US$40kwith government approved subsidies bringing the price to around $32.5k. Initially, the GM vice president wanted it at about US$30k.

Amnorix
06-02-2009, 09:52 AM
It does not look like a $40k vehicle. However, people need to keep in mind that it is a plug in hybrid. You can do average daily commutes without putting a drop of gas in it. It is also classified as extended range. You can fill the tank with either E85 or regular unleaded and drive it for almost 700 miles. The gas engine is not connected to the power train. The gas engine is connected to a generator that provides power for the electric motor.

Is all that worth $40k? I don't know. I doubt I would pay that much without some sort of rebates.

No. You won't save enough on gas for years and years to make up for that price tag.

So what happens? Do the Feds give a tax credit to buy one, almost directly subsidizing its own majority owned business? Which by the way is very unfair to the other car companies?

It's a mess. The faster the feds exit their ownership position -- possibly through block sales to private equity or hedge fund firms and pension funds, even if at a discount -- the better.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:53 AM
Looks you could get one for 32k. That is a lot more reasonable.

Amnorix
06-02-2009, 09:53 AM
I am curious since the government owns them now if they won't use some rebates, subsidies, tax credits to help pay for it?

I'm worried about that. It starts screwing up the competitive marketplace when you start doing this kind of thing.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:54 AM
No. You won't save enough on gas for years and years to make up for that price tag.

So what happens? Do the Feds give a tax credit to buy one, almost directly subsidizing its own majority owned business? Which by the way is very unfair to the other car companies?

It's a mess. The faster the feds exit their ownership position -- possibly through block sales to private equity or hedge fund firms and pension funds, even if at a discount -- the better.

Unfortunately I believe you are correct. I was pulling for them though.

tiptap
06-02-2009, 09:56 AM
Let's take a look at the EPA estimates of mileage
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

And then let's suggest you only use your Volt for the daily commute. Then you could get triple the gas mileage that you get in a Prius, the present champion.

That doesn't get rid of your carbon footprint all together if it is a coal plant providing the energy. And you don't want everyone to be plugging in their vehicles during a warm summer afternoon either.

It can't be a jump all at once. But the Volt represents a good start. Especially if the mileage is good on the long trips as well.

dirk digler
06-02-2009, 09:59 AM
I'm worried about that. It starts screwing up the competitive marketplace when you start doing this kind of thing.

Not really they do that already for hybrids.

The only concern I have is how much my electricity bill is going to increase.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 10:00 AM
Let's take a look at the EPA estimates of mileage
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

And then let's suggest you only use your Volt for the daily commute. Then you could get triple the gas mileage that you get in a Prius, the present champion.

That doesn't get rid of your carbon footprint all together if it is a coal plant providing the energy. And you don't want everyone to be plugging in their vehicles during a warm summer afternoon either.

It can't be a jump all at once. But the Volt represents a good start. Especially if the mileage is good on the long trips as well.

50mpg according to Chevy:

Another very important feature of the Volt, and the reason some people (not GM) still consider it a hybrid, is that it will still have an on-board gasoline/E85 combustion engine. Only in the Volt, this engine is the smaller one, and has only one task, it produces electricity for the motor when the stored power gets low. The engine is not connected to the wheels, it is only a generator. The brilliance of this feature is that you will have an overall driving range of 400 miles. The efficiency of this engine amounts to about 50 mpg. The old EV-1 did not have this function.

HonestChieffan
06-02-2009, 10:04 AM
Not really they do that already for hybrids.

The only concern I have is how much my electricity bill is going to increase.

Especially after Cap and Trade. If you are sourced on power through a Rural Electric Coop it gets even worse.

petegz28
06-02-2009, 10:12 AM
Looks you could get one for 32k. That is a lot more reasonable.

$32k plus trade in value on a car of say $6k.....still puts me at around $26k. That is $10k more than I paid for my wife's Maxima (used fo course). But the Maximan I know is going to give me 200k-300k miles and gets me around 340 miles per tank of gas.

So therefore they have to make this car comparable to a Nissan Maxima in my eyes. And that means not charging for a buttload of extras that are standard on the Japanese models.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 10:14 AM
$32k plus trade in value on a car of say $6k.....still puts me at around $26k. That is $10k more than I paid for my wife's Maxima (used fo course). But the Maximan I know is going to give me 200k-300k miles and gets me around 340 miles per tank of gas.

So therefore they have to make this car comparable to a Nissan Maxima in my eyes. And that means not charging for a buttload of extras that are standard on the Japanese models.

You'll be able to drive 400 miles on a tank of gas at 50 mpg.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 10:15 AM
You'll be able to drive 400 miles on a tank of gas at 50 mpg.
And have the option of using E85 if you chose to.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 10:20 AM
The Volt will use lithium ion batteries. Current hybrids use nickle hydride batteries.

I have to wonder if/when the batteries fall in price (they are very new technology for cars) that the price of the car will fall as well.

petegz28
06-02-2009, 10:30 AM
You'll be able to drive 400 miles on a tank of gas at 50 mpg.

So what? 60 miles per tank more is nothing to justify speding that kind of money.

petegz28
06-02-2009, 10:31 AM
And have the option of using E85 if you chose to.

Yes, cause every gas station I pull into has E85 for sale......

donkhater
06-02-2009, 10:33 AM
I'm really at a loss who would fork over $40K to buy one of these things. So it doesn't use a lot of gas, so what? If you can't afford high gas prices, you sure as hell can't afford a $40K car.

But let's say someone is actually stupid enough to buy one. 1 of 2 things are going to happen:

1. The concept is a failure, the company goes bankrupt (again) and you're stuck with a car that would probably need dealer expertise to repair.

2. The concept works and continual improvements are made driving down costs and improving efficiency.

So if the first scenario comes true, why would you buy it? If the second scenario comes true, why would you buy it now?

InChiefsHell
06-02-2009, 10:34 AM
Having the government give tax incentives to buy a GM car that they are paying to build...and screwing over Ford in the process. Then when Ford goes under, the government buys IT as well. Then we have a merge of all the big 3 because "it just makes more sense to consolidate". Und zen ve create von type of vehicle zat ve vill all drive...

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 10:35 AM
Yes, cause every gas station I pull into has E85 for sale......

Why the hostility? I am not being a dick here. Just pointing out what the car is capable of.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 10:36 AM
I'm really at a loss who would fork over $40K to buy one of these things. So it doesn't use a lot of gas, so what? If you can't afford high gas prices, you sure as hell can't afford a $40K car.

But let's say someone is actually stupid enough to buy one. 1 of 2 things are going to happen:

1. The concept is a failure, the company goes bankrupt (again) and you're stuck with a car that would probably need dealer expertise to repair.

2. The concept works and continual improvements are made driving down costs and improving efficiency.

So if the first scenario comes true, why would you buy it? If the second scenario comes true, why would you buy it now?

32k

stevieray
06-02-2009, 10:38 AM
The Volt will use lithium ion batteries. Current hybrids use nickle hydride batteries.

I have to wonder if/when the batteries fall in price (they are very new technology for cars) that the price of the car will fall as well.


cheap batteries? where?

petegz28
06-02-2009, 10:41 AM
Why the hostility? I am not being a dick here. Just pointing out what the car is capable of.

Not being hostile. Just pointing out the futility of that selling point.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 10:43 AM
We'll see what happens a year or so after the Volt has on the road. It could be a dismal failure. Wouldn't surprise me. I hope it's not though.

stevieray
06-02-2009, 10:45 AM
I am not being a dick here.

ah, memories..of the way...you...were...:D

wild1
06-02-2009, 10:52 AM
Hilarious.

GM makes something for $40k that Toyota makes for $22k and everyone calls that a win.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 11:10 AM
Hilarious.

GM makes something for $40k that Toyota makes for $22k and everyone calls that a win.

Not even close. The Volt is not a hydrid. It is a plug in hybrid that doesn't have to use any gas at all.

wild1
06-02-2009, 11:19 AM
Not even close. The Volt is not a hydrid. It is a plug in hybrid that doesn't have to use any gas at all.

You'd be far, far ahead financially to buy the 50mpg Prius and fill it with gas for its entire service life.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 11:21 AM
You'd be far, far ahead financially to buy the 50mpg Prius and fill it with gas for its entire service life.

The Volt can be purchased for 32k. Although, financially speaking you might still be correct. I haven't run the numbers. Depends on how much you drive and how much the cost of gasoline will be at any given moment.

wild1
06-02-2009, 11:22 AM
The Volt can be purchased for 32k. Although, financially speaking you might still be correct. I haven't run the numbers. Depends on how much you drive and how much the cost of gasoline will be at any given moment.

I'd sure like to see an invoice for a Volt made out for 32k. Let's see if anyone can produce one.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 11:22 AM
I'd sure like to see an invoice for a Volt made out for 32k. Let's see if anyone can produce one.

It is through government subsidies.

InChiefsHell
06-02-2009, 11:32 AM
It is through government subsidies.

Which means it cannot be produced for that kind of money. So that means I'm buying these damn things like it or not...


...greeeeeat...

wild1
06-02-2009, 11:38 AM
It is through government subsidies.

Which means that GM is producing for $40k roughly what Toyota produces for $22k.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 11:41 AM
Which means that GM is producing for $40k roughly what Toyota produces for $22k.

No. The Volt has 3 different means of fueling. The hybrid has one. A plug-in hybrid is more expensive than a regular hybrid.

wild1
06-02-2009, 11:50 AM
No. The Volt has 3 different means of fueling. The hybrid has one. A plug-in hybrid is more expensive than a regular hybrid.

No kidding, it's about twice the price.

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 11:51 AM
No kidding, it's about twice the price.

I'm not denying it's too expensive. Hopefully it will have more standard options or something.

dirk digler
06-02-2009, 11:59 AM
Does anyone remember how much the Prius was when it first came out?

HonestChieffan
06-02-2009, 12:09 PM
Wonder if they will have a Volt pickup that can pull my 22 foot flatbed trailer....nawww bet not.

Amnorix
06-02-2009, 12:12 PM
It's insane. One point of capitalism is to make it work for you, not to ram your head against the wall building something that's obviously uneconomic. It's not a loss leader or anything. It's just a loss. :shake:

SBK
06-02-2009, 12:12 PM
If you want to see how to make electric cars look at Tesla. For $40k the Volt makes no sense, although at a lower price they'd sell like hotcakes.

http://ecomodder.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/10-25-08-tesla_model_s.jpg


This bad boy is a 7 passenger $50k totally electric car, with the right batteries you can go something like 500 miles per charge. With gov't incentives the price comes down to low $40's. Seriously, which would you buy?

SBK
06-02-2009, 12:16 PM
Here's the interior.

http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/tesla-model-s-interior-screen.jpg

wild1
06-02-2009, 12:19 PM
Does anyone remember how much the Prius was when it first came out?

$23,000

dirk digler
06-02-2009, 12:20 PM
The $15,000 Honda Fit hybrid due next year?

http://www.hybridcarblog.com/uploaded_images/honda_fit_hybrid_vehicle-714123.jpg (http://www.hybridcarblog.com/uploaded_images/honda_fit_hybrid_vehicle-714128.jpg)The rumors continue to swirl

A while back Honda announced that it would convert its Fit into a hybrid version, but Honda has never been very clear about when exactly such a vehicle would be offered. Rumors have indicated it could go on sale as early as late 2009 or as late as 2015.

The latest rumors (http://wot.motortrend.com/6542520/we-hear/honda-fit-hybrid-reportedly-on-track-for-2010-release/index.html), however, indicate that the Honda Fit hybrid (http://www.soultek.com/clean_energy/hybrid_cars/hybrid_car_types/honda_fit_hybrid_vehicle.htm) will go on sale sometime in 2010 at a cost of just $15,800, and that the automaker hopes to sell 50,000 Fit hybrids per year.

Not so many decades ago, most in America claimed small Honda and Toyota cars would never take off in America. And this American arrogance and ignorance helped pushed the US auto industry to the precipice of liquidity. Today, Honda and Toyota are preparing to roll out - combined - over half a million small hybrid cars (http://www.soultek.com/clean_energy/hybrid_cars/hybrid_cars.htm) per year, and yet Detroit has neither a product offering nor a plan to compete with such vehicles.

In this repeat of history, however, the Big 3 aren't sitting atop the automotive world. This time they are either in or near bankruptcy. Will America really be able to compete?

dirk digler
06-02-2009, 12:20 PM
$23,000

Thanks.

wild1
06-02-2009, 12:22 PM
The $15,000 Honda Fit hybrid due next year?

LMAO Government Motors is going to get absolutely smoked.

SBK
06-02-2009, 12:24 PM
LMAO Government Motors is going to get absolutely smoked here.

The new Insight, Honda's hybrid has been reviewed a few times as a fantastically awful car. The same could happen here, if the car really sucks most people don't buy them regardless of price.

But the difference between $15k and $40k is pretty big. :evil:

dirk digler
06-02-2009, 12:27 PM
LMAO Government Motors is going to get absolutely smoked.

All the American motor companies will if they don't start offering cars that are cheap and are hybrids like Toyota and Honda are doing.

I didn't realize the Honda Fit was a popular car but looking at their website it is pretty cool looking.

dirk digler
06-02-2009, 12:30 PM
In the market for a Prius?

If you've been thinking about buying a Toyota Prius (http://www.soultek.com/clean_energy/hybrid_cars/hybrid_car_types/toyota_prius_hybrid.htm), then you're probably pretty excited that the new 2010 Prius will soon hit US dealerships.

Just don't get too excited. Earlier this week, my dealer told me he was only expecting 5 new Prius hybrids for first month of sale. Fortunately, he also told me there would be no markups on the new Prius - we'll see how long that lasts.

But what if you need a car now, or you just want a great deal?

Well, there are some deals on the current Prius. Already Toyota has slashed Prius prices by as much as a few thousand, and they are offering great financing options. Moreover, I came away with an obvious impression that dealers are willing to haggle Prius pricing down at least another grand, maybe even two.

However, "we're not going to give them away" my dealer confirmed.

It seems to me Toyota knows full well that there will be a 2010 Prius shortage for several months, yet showrooms will probably be full of new Prius gawkers. So Toyota dealers might be happy to have a few Prii on the lot to push these buyers towards. Thus, I don't anticipate a second generation Prius fire sale any time soon, if ever, especially not in hot hybrid markets.

Nonetheless, if you're heading out to find a deal on a Prius this weekend, don't be afraid to make a low ball offer on a second generation Prius. You might get lucky, especially if this weekend is much slower than normal.

HonestChieffan
06-02-2009, 12:33 PM
will they have free hotdogs?

wild1
06-02-2009, 12:34 PM
What is the production run for the Volt this year? 10,000 units?

Toyota sold 180,000 Priuses in 2007

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 12:37 PM
I will give GM credit. They are the first large manufacturer to tackle a large scale mass produced plug in electric vehicle which is what everyone has been clamoring for. It just turned out that it is out most people's budget unfortunately.

PhillyChiefFan
06-02-2009, 12:43 PM
Could you rig a solar array or a wind turbine to flow directly to your car?

If so, I would imagine that that amount of power would charge the battery. Solar cells can store the energy until you plug the car in, correct?

just spitballin here...

MagicHef
06-02-2009, 12:52 PM
Could you rig a solar array or a wind turbine to flow directly to your car?

If so, I would imagine that that amount of power would charge the battery. Solar cells can store the energy until you plug the car in, correct?

just spitballin here...

I'm assuming you mean mounting them on your car? The turbine would waste more energy through drag than it would produce, and the solar panels are prohibitively expensive. Below is from a guy who builds his own electric cars (in Canada).

On my car, I could install about 6 square metres of solar cells, at a cost of about CDN$3,500, and have up to 300 watts of peak power available. Assuming I could get the equivalent of 5 hours of full sun each day, this would provide me with a maximum of 1,500 Watt-hours of electricity (assuming no cloud and perfect efficiency). 1,000 Watt-hours would be a more realistic figure. In order to travel my regular daily mission (25 to 30 miles), I need about 10,000 Watt-hours of electricity. The solar panels would provide a maximum of 10% of my daily requirements, if I could park in full sun, and there is no cloud cover. For that same CDN$3,500, I can buy 35,000,000 Watt-hours of electricity from the utility, enough to power my car, completely, for over 10 years. For the foreseeable future, I (and the local utility) will be better off if I mount my solar panels in a good location on my house and power some appliances at peak load times with that power, and recharge my car at night from the grid, when power demand is low.

http://www.econogics.com/ev/evfaqs.htm#solar

jiveturkey
06-02-2009, 01:04 PM
If you want to see how to make electric cars look at Tesla. For $40k the Volt makes no sense, although at a lower price they'd sell like hotcakes.

http://ecomodder.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/10-25-08-tesla_model_s.jpg


This bad boy is a 7 passenger $50k totally electric car, with the right batteries you can go something like 500 miles per charge. With gov't incentives the price comes down to low $40's. Seriously, which would you buy?Fuck me runnin'. That's a nice looking car. I love the interior too.

I just don't like the idea of an all electric car. The Volt has the right idea IMO. We'll see how it shakes out though.

I'm probably 3 or 4 years away from buying my next car. I hope that efficiency technology makes some significant jumps by then. I want a nice car first and foremost. Then I want it to be efficient. An Acura TL that gets 35 to 40 mpg would be the perfect car.

InChiefsHell
06-02-2009, 02:13 PM
That Tesla is a great looking car. I found that on the web about 4 years ago I think, and at that time it would only go like 280 miles on a charge and was selling for upwards of 90k. So, that's an encouraging sign. Last I had seen, they were shooting for a goal to make the car for Joe Blow, not just the super rich.

I'll have to check up on them again. Thanks for posting that!

SBK
06-02-2009, 03:23 PM
That Tesla is a great looking car. I found that on the web about 4 years ago I think, and at that time it would only go like 280 miles on a charge and was selling for upwards of 90k. So, that's an encouraging sign. Last I had seen, they were shooting for a goal to make the car for Joe Blow, not just the super rich.

I'll have to check up on them again. Thanks for posting that!

The roadster is about $110,000 or something, the new Model S, which is the 7 passenger sedan is much cheaper and has a much longer battery life.

They've already had several thousand people give them $5,000 to reserve a spot in line.

FishingRod
06-02-2009, 03:42 PM
I mean this in a good way this time. DC is one of the biggest collection of know-it-alls I have ever seen so perhaps someone help inform me on a few things.
So since I haven't had the time or made the time to research the following.
What is/will be the environmental impact in the mining of the raw materials, production and disposal of the batteries.

Additionally will the increased electricity for charging said batteries be powered by coal, nuclear, oil or something else?

What is the difference in the amount of energy needed to produce the electricity needed to charge the batteries to propel an automobile the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline?

Is it currently possible to have a foldable windshield cover made of solar cells that can charge the vehicle while one sits at work all day?

I am all for being more efficient and less harmful to our environment but, I an not really interested in feel good, look at what we are doing posturing that just replaces one problem with a different one.

banyon
06-02-2009, 04:06 PM
I take it no one would ever ride in a Tata Nano?

MSRP: $2500.00
http://tatanano.inservices.tatamotors.com/tatamotors/images/stories/nano_images/content_images/303.jpg

wild1
06-02-2009, 04:10 PM
Additionally will the increased electricity for charging said batteries be powered by coal, nuclear, oil or something else?


Actually, the plan is not to produce more energy, it's to tax energy until it's prohibitively expensive so that you are forced to use less.

FishingRod
06-02-2009, 04:26 PM
Actually, the plan is not to produce more energy, it's to tax energy until it's prohibitively expensive so that you are forced to use less.

Do we have a plan B?

Plan A sucks.

MagicHef
06-02-2009, 04:26 PM
What is the difference in the amount of energy needed to produce the electricity needed to charge the batteries to propel an automobile the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline?

Producing electricity in a large plant (more efficient than many small engines) then using that electricity in a motor (~95% efficient) will have an energy savings over the current model of an internal combustion engine in each vehicle. I don't know how much.

Is it currently possible to have a foldable windshield cover made of solar cells that can charge the vehicle while one sits at work all day?

It's possible, but for the amount of electricity it would produce over its lifespan, it would probably be cheaper to buy that electricity from the grid.

Baby Lee
06-02-2009, 04:39 PM
Producing electricity in a large plant (more efficient than many small engines) then using that electricity in a motor (~95% efficient) will have an energy savings over the current model of an internal combustion engine in each vehicle. I don't know how much.
That's not the whole story, cheap gas means that we can just refine it a little, dump it in the tank and convert it directly to momentum.
If you were comparing an electrical plant run on gasoline to cars running on gasoline, a bunch of little ICE engines would get a ton more miles out of the gase than a ton of little electric engines would because ICE doesn't need to generate electricity beyond that to keep the battery charged for ignition and creature comforts.
Recall, when you generate electrical power with fuel, you are basically running an engine in reverse. So you still have a quasi ICE setup [burn fuel to create force and induce current] generating the electricity that you then transfer to an electric motor to provide momentum.

SBK
06-02-2009, 04:41 PM
I take it no one would ever ride in a Tata Nano?

MSRP: $2500.00
http://tatanano.inservices.tatamotors.com/tatamotors/images/stories/nano_images/content_images/303.jpg

Coming to GM soon, the new Obamobile. LMAO

Valiant
06-02-2009, 04:45 PM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/09/17/automobiles/533-volt-production.jpg

And they fuck it up again.. Leave it looking like the concept.. That thing is more boxy and less sleak then the concept..

Valiant
06-02-2009, 04:51 PM
If you want to see how to make electric cars look at Tesla. For $40k the Volt makes no sense, although at a lower price they'd sell like hotcakes.

http://ecomodder.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/10-25-08-tesla_model_s.jpg


This bad boy is a 7 passenger $50k totally electric car, with the right batteries you can go something like 500 miles per charge. With gov't incentives the price comes down to low $40's. Seriously, which would you buy?


If that is the production car, that will be my next purchase in the next two years..

SBK
06-02-2009, 05:05 PM
If that is the production car, that will be my next purchase in the next two years..

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/index.php

MagicHef
06-02-2009, 05:07 PM
That's not the whole story, cheap gas means that we can just refine it a little, dump it in the tank and convert it directly to momentum.
If you were comparing an electrical plant run on gasoline to cars running on gasoline, a bunch of little ICE engines would get a ton more miles out of the gase than a ton of little electric engines would because ICE doesn't need to generate electricity beyond that to keep the battery charged for ignition and creature comforts.
Recall, when you generate electrical power with fuel, you are basically running an engine in reverse. So you still have a quasi ICE setup [burn fuel to create force and induce current] generating the electricity that you then transfer to an electric motor to provide momentum.

I'm not sure about that:

Subcritical fossil fuel power plants can achieve 3640% efficiency. Supercritical designs have efficiencies in the low to mid 40% range, with new "ultra critical" designs using pressures of 4,400 psi (30 MPa) and dual stage reheat reaching about 48% efficiency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_power_plant

Even when aided with turbochargers and stock efficiency aids, most engines retain an average efficiency of about 18%-20%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine

Even assuming the least efficient fossil fuel plant and converting the electrical energy back into kinetic energy through an electric motor:

0.36 x 0.95 = 0.342

The efficiency is still much greater than a typical ICE. This doesn't even take into consideration that an ICE will require a transmission with its inherent losses, whereas an electric motor can be designed to rotate at a large enough range of speeds to make a transmission unnecessary.

Dave Lane
06-02-2009, 06:15 PM
Where's whathisface, anyway? The ultra right wing nut job who spent alot of time on here pimping GM because his dad had worked there for 35 years or whatever?

Haven't seen him around lately....

He had some really brilliant defenses of GM. :rolleyes:

Reject? Yep his backing of GM, Giuliani and McCain did him in I'm afraid...

Cannibal
06-02-2009, 09:28 PM
Reject? Yep his backing of GM, Giuliani and McCain did him in I'm afraid...

:LOL: Nothing against Rex. That just read really funny.

Al Bundy
06-02-2009, 09:33 PM
Isn't the Volt supposed to be in the new Transformers?

Saul Good
06-02-2009, 09:49 PM
Is it currently possible to have a foldable windshield cover made of solar cells that can charge the vehicle while one sits at work all day?

Why connect it to the care in the first place? It would make more sense to me if you left panels in a place that would be more conducive to charging and channeled that energy into a battery. Then, you could just rotate batteries. As long as you can get the stored energy to the car, it doesn't really matter where the panels are.

InChiefsHell
06-04-2009, 08:01 AM
Volkswagon has some kind of solar power charging thing in my boss' car, a Bug. She says she has to hook it up, but it basically trickle charges the battery or something so it's always charged. Or something like that.

MagicHef
06-04-2009, 09:08 AM
Volkswagon has some kind of solar power charging thing in my boss' car, a Bug. She says she has to hook it up, but it basically trickle charges the battery or something so it's always charged. Or something like that.

In a normal, gasoline powered Bug?

HonestChieffan
06-04-2009, 09:32 AM
they sell those at Bass Pro and Cabelas

MagicHef
06-04-2009, 10:33 AM
I guess it makes sense if you have a car (like a mid 90's Suburban) that slowly discharges the battery if you leave it sitting for weeks at a time. Other than that, why would you buy that?

FishingRod
06-04-2009, 10:53 AM
Why connect it to the care in the first place? It would make more sense to me if you left panels in a place that would be more conducive to charging and channeled that energy into a battery. Then, you could just rotate batteries. As long as you can get the stored energy to the car, it doesn't really matter where the panels are.

That was the point of the question. Who wants to take out and then put batteries back in everyday? If the Solar panels and batteries were good enough it would be attractive to many people to have the car charge while it sits in your parking lot at work. I drive 30 to and from my job every day. I would think most people drive less than that. Mine is 90% highway and I drive about 65-70 MPH on average. So I would need to be able to do that to consider buying an electric car. It should be doable.

InChiefsHell
06-04-2009, 02:47 PM
In a normal, gasoline powered Bug?

Well, she just told me about it again. Originally she was told that it was for long term storage, but she couldn't figure out where to plug it in, it has what looks like a serial cable end on it. She went back to the dealer and asked them about it. First guy had no clue, the second guy said it was probably for portage from Germany, and was not meant to come with the car...

...epic fail for Volkswagon. With all the greeny-green-green talk in the world, they would probably be able to market that somehow.