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BigCatDaddy
06-09-2009, 10:49 AM
I hate for it to happen this way, but at least some good comes from this tragedy.


http://www.kmbc.com/health/19701775/detail.html


The family of slain abortion provider Dr. George Tiller announced Tuesday that his clinic will not reopen.



Micheal Mahoney/KMBC
Flowers were laid outside Dr. George Tiller's clinic in Wichita, Kan.

A statement from the family's attorney said the Women's Health Care Services, Inc., will be permanently closed.

"The Tiller family is ceasing operation of the clinic and any involvement by family members in any other similar clinic."

The statement goes on to say that the family will honor Tiller's memory through private charitable activities.

Tiller was shot to death at his Wichita church on May 31.

***SPRAYER
06-09-2009, 10:55 AM
No more sucking a baby's brain from it's skull with a vaccuum cleaner? Darn.

KC native
06-09-2009, 10:57 AM
How is this good? The anti abortion terrorists got their way and now there is one less doctor who provides this medically legitimate procedure. All this does is embolden them to try and murder, bomb, and harass their way to a point where it doesn't matter if abortion is legal because no one will perform it.

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 10:58 AM
Why is this good news? Now there is only 2 places left in this country for women to get help for late-term abortions that are legit. Those doctors that work in those better hire some security because they will be the next to be assassinated.

BigCatDaddy
06-09-2009, 11:16 AM
It's good because we don't have babies being killed. Is it that hard to understand?

KC native
06-09-2009, 11:19 AM
It's good because we don't have babies being killed. Is it that hard to understand?

According to you. He was a medical doctor providing a needed service. Despite your mischaracterization of his practice, it's still not a good thing. This clinic is closing because of terrorist behavior. It sets a bad precedent.

Brock
06-09-2009, 11:19 AM
Wichita's probably pretty happy about it, FWIW.

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 11:23 AM
It's good because we don't have babies being killed. Is it that hard to understand?

I didn't realize abortion was illegal in this country

KC Dan
06-09-2009, 11:24 AM
It's horrendously bad - the end does NOT justify the means. I vehemently disagree with late term abortions but that disagreement does not place me in the camp that this was a good thing...

RaiderH8r
06-09-2009, 11:29 AM
How is this good? The anti abortion terrorists got their way and now there is one less doctor who provides this medically legitimate procedure. All this does is embolden them to try and murder, bomb, and harass their way to a point where it doesn't matter if abortion is legal because no one will perform it.

If they were terrorists then Obama would be kissing their asses right now, just like he did in Cairo.

Second, to define the pro-life movement by the actions of a handful is disingenuous and does a disservice to the debate.

Third. I am pro choice.

Frazod
06-09-2009, 11:30 AM
No more sucking a baby's brain from it's skull with a vaccuum cleaner? Darn.

You survived it.

KC native
06-09-2009, 11:32 AM
If they were terrorists then Obama would be kissing their asses right now, just like he did in Cairo.

Second, to define the pro-life movement by the actions of a handful is disingenuous and does a disservice to the debate.

Third. I am pro choice.

Not all pro lifers fall into this camp but to pretend that there isn't an organized violent opposition to abortion in this country is being naive.

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 11:36 AM
It's horrendously bad - the end does NOT justify the means. I vehemently disagree with late term abortions but that disagreement does not place me in the camp that this was a good thing...

I am against late-term abortions as well except in legit cases.

Like the story I read the other day about a woman in Virginia that went to the doctor for a routine checkup on her pregnancy. She only had 2 months left and they found out the baby was dead. She was distraught (obviously) and she wanted the baby removed. The doctor wanted to but couldn't so he secretly referred her to Tiller.

KC Dan
06-09-2009, 11:38 AM
I am against late-term abortions as well except in legit cases.

Like the story I read the other day about a woman in Virginia that went to the doctor for a routine checkup on her pregnancy. She only had 2 months left and they found out the baby was dead. She was distraught (obviously) and she wanted the baby removed. The doctor wanted to but couldn't so he secretly referred her to Tiller.
This is going to sound bad but here goes. If the baby is dead, it isn't an abortion really? Isn't it like removing a tumor? There is ZERO chance of a viable human as it is dead, right? I have no issues with removing a dead fetus, I do have issues aborting a live one.

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 11:42 AM
This is going to sound bad but here goes. If the baby is dead, it isn't an abortion really? Isn't it like removing a tumor? There is ZERO chance of a viable human as it is dead, right? I have no issues with removing a dead fetus, I do have issues aborting a live one.

You would think but most late-term abortion laws probably just specify you can't remove any fetus after certain date. I don't know for sure.

Pitt Gorilla
06-09-2009, 11:43 AM
This is going to sound bad but here goes. If the baby is dead, it isn't an abortion really? Isn't it like removing a tumor? There is ZERO chance of a viable human as it is dead, right? I have no issues with removing a dead fetus, I do have issues aborting a live one.I have a close friend who fairly late in her pregnancy had some severe complications that were causing her body to "shut down." Now, they didn't have an "abortion" but the doctor did induce labor (knowing that the child likely wouldn't survive). Do you "have issues" about that?

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 11:46 AM
Actually I was a little bit wrong about the story. My memory sucks but it was fairly close

One former patient, Miriam Kleiman, went to Tiller's clinic several years ago after making an anguished decision. She was seven months pregnant with her first child -- "a planned pregnancy, a longed-for, desired, wanted pregnancy," she said -- when doctors told her the fetus had severe and irreversible birth defects.Kleiman, who lives in the Washington, D.C., area, said she was told that she would either have to deliver a dead baby or one doomed to die immediately after birth.

Kleiman and her husband now have two healthy sons.

RaiderH8r
06-09-2009, 11:47 AM
Not all pro lifers fall into this camp but to pretend that there isn't an organized violent opposition to abortion in this country is being naive.

How many abortion Dr.s have been killed since Roe v. Wade? If there's an organized, violent opposition to abortion then this should be a pretty significant number. It should reflect the true evil intent of the organized, violent opposition to abortion. Or it will reflect a spin machine that has purposefully miscast a point of view for the purposes of advancing their own agenda.

BigCatDaddy
06-09-2009, 11:48 AM
I didn't realize abortion was illegal in this country

It's not. But let's not get into the whole legality vs morality issue. It's not a road you want to go down.

jiveturkey
06-09-2009, 11:53 AM
How many abortion Dr.s have been killed since Roe v. Wade? If there's an organized, violent opposition to abortion then this should be a pretty significant number. It should reflect the true evil intent of the organized, violent opposition to abortion. Or it will reflect a spin machine that has purposefully miscast a point of view for the purposes of advancing their own agenda.The agenda has already been advanced. It's legal. How much further could they possibly advance it?

Are a bunch of 12 year olds in the cross hairs of the pro-choice groups?

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 11:53 AM
It's not. But let's not get into the whole legality vs morality issue. It's not a road you want to go down.

Agreed

wild1
06-09-2009, 11:55 AM
at least some good has come out of all of this.

KC Dan
06-09-2009, 11:56 AM
I have a close friend who fairly late in her pregnancy had some severe complications that were causing her body to "shut down." Now, they didn't have an "abortion" but the doctor did induce labor (knowing that the child likely wouldn't survive). Do you "have issues" about that?
Not really as if it is a viable being, it should be able to survive. However, I can not dictate this because I am not involved personally. I never said it was cut and dry for sure...

MagicHef
06-09-2009, 11:57 AM
I don't know if this would affect what Tiller was doing, but how does the ever-earlier viability of pre-term babies affect abortion overall?

More 'Extreme' Preemies Surviving
06.02.09, 12:00 PM EDT
Almost 70% of babies born at 22-26 weeks make it to 1st birthday, study finds


TUESDAY, June 2 (HealthDay News) -- Advances in the care of extremely premature infants mean that about 70 percent of these tiny newborns now survive their first year of life, Swedish researchers report.

The number of preterm births is increasing worldwide, and advances in perinatal medicine have increased survival. That means that neonatal intensive care can now be lifesaving even for the most premature infants -- those born between 22 and 26 weeks of gestation.

The news is important, the researchers said, because if parents and doctors believe a preemie's chances for survival are already slim, less aggressive care might be extended.

But the new results suggest that the evaluation of "extremely preterm babies should be done individually, considering both the survival chances and the morbidity risks," said Dr. Karel Marsal, a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at Lund University and the lead researcher.

"The survival rates of extremely preterm infants are high, even at the borders of viability," he noted.

The report is published in the June 3 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association.

For the study, Marsal's group collected data on more than 305,000 infants born in Sweden from 2004 to 2007. Among these infants, 1,011 were born extremely preterm (before 27 weeks), including 707 born alive and 304 stillborn.

After one year, 70 percent of the 707 children were still alive, with dramatic increases in survival for each additional week of gestation. For babies born at 22 weeks, one-year survival was 9.8 percent; at 23 weeks it was 53 percent; at 24 weeks, survival was 67 percent; at 25 weeks it was 82 percent; and at 26 weeks, one-year survival reached 85 percent.

Among the surviving infants, 45 percent had no severe neonatal illness at 1 year old.

The overall perinatal death rate was 45 percent, ranging from 93 percent at 22 gestational weeks to 24 percent at 26 weeks, the study found. Among live births, 22 percent of the infants died within six days of delivery, including 8.2 percent who died in the delivery room and 5 percent died from seven to 27 days after birth.

Altogether, 30 percent of the infants who were born alive died before the age of 1 year. The number of stillbirths, delivery room deaths, neonatal deaths and infant deaths decreased with gestational age. For infants surviving 28 days, there was no significant association between gestational age at birth and one-year survival, Marsal's team found.

Treatment with tocolytics, which are drugs that delay or stop labor, corticosteroids or both appeared to help lower the odds of death. So did treatment soon after birth with surfactant -- a fluid produced shortly before birth that prevents the lungs from filling with water. Birth at an "advanced care" hospital was also associated with a lower risk of infants dying, the Swedish team found.

"We believe that the good Swedish results are due to the excellent collaboration between obstetricians and neonatologists, a high degree of centralization of very preterm deliveries to tertiary level perinatal centers, and proactive perinatal management," Marsal said.

Dr. F. Sessions Cole, director of newborn medicine and head of the neonatal intensive care unit at St. Louis Children's Hospital, believes that more needs to be done to prevent premature delivery in the first place, however.

"Gestational age at the time of delivery continues to be an important predictor of a live birth, survival until discharge from the neonatal intensive care unit, and survival until one year of age," he said.

Because the study was executed as an observational study, it did not look into ways to prevent preterm birth or improve neonatal outcomes, Cole said.

Parents need "personalized prognostic tools, both to inform decision-making about neonatal outcomes and to prevent extremely preterm birth," he said.

More information

The U.S. National Institute of Child Health and Human Development has more on preterm labor and birth.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/hscout/2009/06/02/hscout627664.html

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 12:02 PM
Not really as if it is a viable being, it should be able to survive. However, I can not dictate this because I am not involved personally. I never said it was cut and dry for sure...

The problem for the far-right anti-abortion kooks it is a cut and dry issue and they could care less about the circumstances.

The same applies to the far-left pro-choice kooks who are in favor of all late-term abortions even for petty reasons.

Everybody needs to meet in the middle on this because both sides have legit points.

KC Dan
06-09-2009, 12:03 PM
The problem for the far-right anti-abortion kooks it is a cut and dry issue and they could care less about the circumstances.

The same applies to the far-left pro-choice kooks who are in favor of all late-term abortions even for petty reasons.

Everybody needs to meet in the middle on this because both sides have legit points.Agreed again. DAMN YOU!

Saggysack
06-09-2009, 12:08 PM
Wichita's probably pretty happy about it, FWIW.

I'd think you would be pretty surprised. This is a city that just acquitted him of 19 charges a few months ago. It took the jury less than a hour to reach a verdict.

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 12:10 PM
Agreed again. DAMN YOU!

:thumb:

I do have a question for all the pro-lifers though? With all this talk of calling Dr. Tiller "Tiller the baby killer" what about the mother's responsibility in all of this?

Let's be honest here, Dr. Tiller didn't recruit or advertise his services or brain wash the mothers to have an abortion. They all came willing and wanting to have this done.

Just curious what everyone thinks.

shitgoose
06-09-2009, 12:13 PM
I'd think you would be pretty surprised. This is a city that just acquitted him of 19 charges a few months ago. It took the jury less than a hour to reach a verdict.

Six people acquitted him.

Mojo Jojo
06-09-2009, 12:20 PM
I will give you my real life Dr. Tiller story. My wife and I were expecting our first child, and some of tests were not in the normal range. We went to a genetic doctor for additional tests. During our sit down he let us know that if we were to terminate the pregnancy only Dr. Tiller would do it in Kansas and suggested talking with him.

My wife and I each took vacation days and drove to Wichita to meet with Dr. Tiller. During the meeting he suggested setting a time within the next two days to perform the procedure. My wife and I said we wanted the genetic test results first. At that time Dr. Tiller said these test would just confirm the worst and we should go ahead with the procedure to ease our minds. My wife and I said we would wait for the results and get get back to him. Then he replied that he was sure he would see us sometime soon.

Guess what...the test came back as a false negative. Everything was fine. We now have a healthy 12-year old who Dr. Tiller was willing to kill without final tests. The scary thing was once we questioned his decision and wanted to wait he became an used car salesman on why we need this today. Once we said no he acted as if I told you so and you will be back.

I can't think how much he thinks of himself and how little he thinks of others when this is the way he acts. I am so happy we had the strength to say just give it a few days and let's see what happens.

BigCatDaddy
06-09-2009, 12:29 PM
:thumb:

I do have a question for all the pro-lifers though? With all this talk of calling Dr. Tiller "Tiller the baby killer" what about the mother's responsibility in all of this?

Let's be honest here, Dr. Tiller didn't recruit or advertise his services or brain wash the mothers to have an abortion. They all came willing and wanting to have this done.

Just curious what everyone thinks.

I would compare it to a murder for hire.

jjjayb
06-09-2009, 12:29 PM
Why is this good news? Now there is only 2 places left in this country for women to get help for late-term abortions that are legit. Those doctors that work in those better hire some security because they will be the next to be assassinated.

Let me help make it clear for you:

http://kgov.com/gallery/abortion/InsanityOfChoice.jpg

Legit? This man was doing this so the mothers wouldn't be "depressed".

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 12:30 PM
I will give you my real life Dr. Tiller story. My wife and I were expecting our first child, and some of tests were not in the normal range. We went to a genetic doctor for additional tests. During our sit down he let us know that if we were to terminate the pregnancy only Dr. Tiller would do it in Kansas and suggested talking with him.

My wife and I each took vacation days and drove to Wichita to meet with Dr. Tiller. During the meeting he suggested setting a time within the next two days to perform the procedure. My wife and I said we wanted the genetic test results first. At that time Dr. Tiller said these test would just confirm the worst and we should go ahead with the procedure to ease our minds. My wife and I said we would wait for the results and get get back to him. Then he replied that he was sure he would see us sometime soon.

Guess what...the test came back as a false negative. Everything was fine. We now have a healthy 12-year old who Dr. Tiller was willing to kill without final tests. The scary thing was once we questioned his decision and wanted to wait he became an used car salesman on why we need this today. Once we said no he acted as if I told you so and you will be back.

I can't think how much he thinks of himself and how little he thinks of others when this is the way he acts. I am so happy we had the strength to say just give it a few days and let's see what happens.

Thanks for sharing your story. That is disappointing the way he treated you and your wife and I am glad you have a healthy 12-year old.

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 12:31 PM
I would compare it to a murder for hire.

So the mothers should be put to death or have a life sentence?

jjjayb
06-09-2009, 12:36 PM
I will give you my real life Dr. Tiller story. My wife and I were expecting our first child, and some of tests were not in the normal range. We went to a genetic doctor for additional tests. During our sit down he let us know that if we were to terminate the pregnancy only Dr. Tiller would do it in Kansas and suggested talking with him.

My wife and I each took vacation days and drove to Wichita to meet with Dr. Tiller. During the meeting he suggested setting a time within the next two days to perform the procedure. My wife and I said we wanted the genetic test results first. At that time Dr. Tiller said these test would just confirm the worst and we should go ahead with the procedure to ease our minds. My wife and I said we would wait for the results and get get back to him. Then he replied that he was sure he would see us sometime soon.

Guess what...the test came back as a false negative. Everything was fine. We now have a healthy 12-year old who Dr. Tiller was willing to kill without final tests. The scary thing was once we questioned his decision and wanted to wait he became an used car salesman on why we need this today. Once we said no he acted as if I told you so and you will be back.

I can't think how much he thinks of himself and how little he thinks of others when this is the way he acts. I am so happy we had the strength to say just give it a few days and let's see what happens.


:clap: Good for you and your child! It's amazing how easy they make killing a baby. It's as quick and painless as having a mole removed. Nebraska just passed a law that the doctor has to show you an ultrasound before performing an abortion. This is a great law. There is a group that has been offering ultrasounds to women considering abortion for a while now. I don't remember the numbers, but the overwhelming majority decide to keep their baby after seeing the ultrasound. It helps cement the reality of what they are about to do.

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 12:38 PM
Let me help make it clear for you:



Legit? This man was doing this so the mothers wouldn't be "depressed".

He also did legit abortions as the story I posted says.

As long as the abortion is legit what is the problem?

Fish
06-09-2009, 12:45 PM
I will give you my real life Dr. Tiller story. My wife and I were expecting our first child, and some of tests were not in the normal range. We went to a genetic doctor for additional tests. During our sit down he let us know that if we were to terminate the pregnancy only Dr. Tiller would do it in Kansas and suggested talking with him.

My wife and I each took vacation days and drove to Wichita to meet with Dr. Tiller. During the meeting he suggested setting a time within the next two days to perform the procedure. My wife and I said we wanted the genetic test results first. At that time Dr. Tiller said these test would just confirm the worst and we should go ahead with the procedure to ease our minds. My wife and I said we would wait for the results and get get back to him. Then he replied that he was sure he would see us sometime soon.

Guess what...the test came back as a false negative. Everything was fine. We now have a healthy 12-year old who Dr. Tiller was willing to kill without final tests. The scary thing was once we questioned his decision and wanted to wait he became an used car salesman on why we need this today. Once we said no he acted as if I told you so and you will be back.

I can't think how much he thinks of himself and how little he thinks of others when this is the way he acts. I am so happy we had the strength to say just give it a few days and let's see what happens.

I'm very glad you have a happy healthy 12-year old. Thank goodness for that.

But were you not also willing to kill at that point? It sounds to me like you justified the possibility until you found out it was a false negative, then at that point you decided he was a killer.

Tiller was very wrong in the way he approached the situation. Very wrong. But you were willing to consider his services. Enough to travel all that way to do so. Your outlook changed from a possible necessary service to a murder when you found out you wouldn't need to go through with it. You can't really criticize the legal contract killer that you yourself attempted to hire and then decided against....

MagicHef
06-09-2009, 12:55 PM
I'm very glad you have a happy healthy 12-year old. Thank goodness for that.

But were you not also willing to kill at that point? It sounds to me like you justified the possibility until you found out it was a false negative, then at that point you decided he was a killer.

Tiller was very wrong in the way he approached the situation. Very wrong. But you were willing to consider his services. Enough to travel all that way to do so. Your outlook changed from a possible necessary service to a murder when you found out you wouldn't need to go through with it. You can't really criticize the legal contract killer that you yourself attempted to hire and then decided against....

So Tiller was "Very wrong," but he can't criticize him? That's what he's criticizing him for.

BigCatDaddy
06-09-2009, 12:59 PM
So the mothers should be put to death or have a life sentence?

Your putting it in legal terms. My comparison is in relationship to the responsible party like you asked. I think the mother is just as guilty as the hitman.

mlyonsd
06-09-2009, 12:59 PM
You can't really criticize the legal contract killer that you yourself attempted to hire and then decided against....

You can if the scenario is accurate and Tiller tried to talk them into forgoing a test, or worse, tried to influence their decision based on a test that wasn't taken. Especially when you consider what those test results mean and the consequences that will occur.

It's not only immoral I'd say it's borderline malpractice.

Saulbadguy
06-09-2009, 12:59 PM
The terrorists won.

Demonpenz
06-09-2009, 01:09 PM
All those new kids are going to ruin the power and light

Fish
06-09-2009, 01:12 PM
So Tiller was "Very wrong," but he can't criticize him? That's what he's criticizing him for.

Consider this analogy...

I'm considering hiring a hitman to knock off my mother in law, and I arrange a meeting and discuss the methods of the hit and how I want it done. Then after the meeting, I decide against it. Does the fact that I decided against it negate the intentions I had when I was considering it? Is it not disingenuous at that point to criticize a hitman when I had previously accepted the hitman's nefarious practices enough to try to hire one myself?

MagicHef
06-09-2009, 01:27 PM
Consider this analogy...

I'm considering hiring a hitman to knock off my mother in law, and I arrange a meeting and discuss the methods of the hit and how I want it done. Then after the meeting, I decide against it. Does the fact that I decided against it negate the intentions I had when I was considering it? Is it not disingenuous at that point to criticize a hitman when I had previously accepted the hitman's nefarious practices enough to try to hire one myself?

He wasn't criticizing Tillman for his practices (performing abortions). He was criticizing him for the way he approached the situation and his unwillingness to wait for confirmation of the necessity of such a drastic and unchangeable procedure.

Brock
06-09-2009, 01:34 PM
I'd think you would be pretty surprised. This is a city that just acquitted him of 19 charges a few months ago. It took the jury less than a hour to reach a verdict.

Well, I don't mean that Wichita is happy that he was killed, just that all of the drama that surrounded the town all the time because of protesters and the like is over.

wild1
06-09-2009, 01:41 PM
I will give you my real life Dr. Tiller story. My wife and I were expecting our first child, and some of tests were not in the normal range. We went to a genetic doctor for additional tests. During our sit down he let us know that if we were to terminate the pregnancy only Dr. Tiller would do it in Kansas and suggested talking with him.

My wife and I each took vacation days and drove to Wichita to meet with Dr. Tiller. During the meeting he suggested setting a time within the next two days to perform the procedure. My wife and I said we wanted the genetic test results first. At that time Dr. Tiller said these test would just confirm the worst and we should go ahead with the procedure to ease our minds. My wife and I said we would wait for the results and get get back to him. Then he replied that he was sure he would see us sometime soon.

Guess what...the test came back as a false negative. Everything was fine. We now have a healthy 12-year old who Dr. Tiller was willing to kill without final tests. The scary thing was once we questioned his decision and wanted to wait he became an used car salesman on why we need this today. Once we said no he acted as if I told you so and you will be back.

I can't think how much he thinks of himself and how little he thinks of others when this is the way he acts. I am so happy we had the strength to say just give it a few days and let's see what happens.

How does that "It's just tissue" argument sit with you, given your experience?

Fish
06-09-2009, 01:52 PM
He wasn't criticizing Tillman for his practices (performing abortions). He was criticizing him for the way he approached the situation and his unwillingness to wait for confirmation of the necessity of such a drastic and unchangeable procedure.

He did criticize Tiller's practices by calling him a killer. That's very different from accusing Tiller of being insensitive, or pushy, or impatient with the procedure. He criticized him for wanting to kill.

He traveled to Kansas to visit Tiller's office. At that point, Tiller's services were viewed as a possible acceptable outcome to the situation. The fact that it was a drastic and unchangeable procedure was known ahead of time. Then after it was found that Tiller's services weren't needed, Tiller is labeled as a killer. It's disingenuous to accept a controversial practice like this and consider it in your own life, only to turn around and criticize it after you have no use for it.

In my experience, abortion is treated this way by many. It's murder until you yourself actually have a need for the procedure.

wild1
06-09-2009, 01:57 PM
He did criticize Tiller's practices by calling him a killer. That's very different from accusing Tiller of being insensitive, or pushy, or impatient with the procedure. He criticized him for wanting to kill.

He traveled to Kansas to visit Tiller's office. At that point, Tiller's services were viewed as a possible acceptable outcome to the situation. The fact that it was a drastic and unchangeable procedure was known ahead of time. Then after it was found that Tiller's services weren't needed, Tiller is labeled as a killer. It's disingenuous to accept a controversial practice like this and consider it in your own life, only to turn around and criticize it after you have no use for it.

In my experience, abortion is treated this way by many. It's murder until you yourself actually have a need for the procedure.

The rules all change once it's your life that would be inconvenienced?

MagicHef
06-09-2009, 01:58 PM
He did criticize Tiller's practices by calling him a killer. That's very different from accusing Tiller of being insensitive, or pushy, or impatient with the procedure. He criticized him for wanting to kill.

He traveled to Kansas to visit Tiller's office. At that point, Tiller's services were viewed as a possible acceptable outcome to the situation. The fact that it was a drastic and unchangeable procedure was known ahead of time. Then after it was found that Tiller's services weren't needed, Tiller is labeled as a killer. It's disingenuous to accept a controversial practice like this and consider it in your own life, only to turn around and criticize it after you have no use for it.

In my experience, abortion is treated this way by many. It's murder until you yourself actually have a need for the procedure.

Is it really a criticism if it's true? Would you be criticizing an exterminator by calling him a killer?

mlyonsd
06-09-2009, 02:00 PM
He did criticize Tiller's practices by calling him a killer. That's very different from accusing Tiller of being insensitive, or pushy, or impatient with the procedure. He criticized him for wanting to kill.

He traveled to Kansas to visit Tiller's office. At that point, Tiller's services were viewed as a possible acceptable outcome to the situation. The fact that it was a drastic and unchangeable procedure was known ahead of time. Then after it was found that Tiller's services weren't needed, Tiller is labeled as a killer. It's disingenuous to accept a controversial practice like this and consider it in your own life, only to turn around and criticize it after you have no use for it.

In my experience, abortion is treated this way by many. It's murder until you yourself actually have a need for the procedure.

It's not disingenuous at all if the scenario happened the way it was explained.

mojo had no idea Tiller would pre-diagnose a test that wasn't ever done. That completely changes your argument.

wild1
06-09-2009, 02:02 PM
Is it really a criticism if it's true? Would you be criticizing an exterminator by calling him a killer?

an exterminator is one. He's a bug killer.

Nothing wrong with calling someone what they are. A fact is a fact.

Mojo Jojo
06-09-2009, 02:24 PM
He did criticize Tiller's practices by calling him a killer. That's very different from accusing Tiller of being insensitive, or pushy, or impatient with the procedure. He criticized him for wanting to kill.

He traveled to Kansas to visit Tiller's office. At that point, Tiller's services were viewed as a possible acceptable outcome to the situation. The fact that it was a drastic and unchangeable procedure was known ahead of time. Then after it was found that Tiller's services weren't needed, Tiller is labeled as a killer. It's disingenuous to accept a controversial practice like this and consider it in your own life, only to turn around and criticize it after you have no use for it.

In my experience, abortion is treated this way by many. It's murder until you yourself actually have a need for the procedure.

I guess you can't read, or you are not very bright. Yes, my wife and I were considering all possibilities. That doesn't mean even if the results would have turned out the other way we would have chose the abortion. My wife and I consider ourselves pro-choice with limits. What you can't or won't understand is that he was willing to push the procedure without all the facts. Dr. Tiller put his beliefs and position before and above his clients.

In your world pro-choice only counts if someone chooses the way you believe.

Fish
06-09-2009, 02:27 PM
Tiller was what he was. He knew that before he visited Tiller. He knew what Tiller's practice did. Despite the terrible way Tiller handled it, it still stands that he knowingly set up a meeting with him, and justified it at the time thinking it may be necessary. After it wasn't necessary, he claimed Tiller wanted to kill. He has every right to criticize Tiller for the way he handled it, but to call him a killer at that point means he knowingly negotiated with someone he considered a killer. The way Tiller handled it didn't make him a killer. Impatience and insensitivity, doesn't equate to killing. At the time, Tiller was pushing to rush a legal and planned procedure. That doesn't make one a killer, regardless of how you personally view the ethics of it.

Mojo Jojo
06-09-2009, 02:28 PM
How does that "It's just tissue" argument sit with you, given your experience?

Not very well. Anyone who has had the the good fortune to be a parent will tell you the first time you see a live sonogram of someone that is 1/2 your genes your outlook on a lot of things will change.

Mojo Jojo
06-09-2009, 02:30 PM
Tiller was what he was. He knew that before he visited Tiller. He knew what Tiller's practice did. Despite the terrible way Tiller handled it, it still stands that he knowingly set up a meeting with him, and justified it at the time thinking it may be necessary. After it wasn't necessary, he claimed Tiller wanted to kill. He has every right to criticize Tiller for the way he handled it, but to call him a killer at that point means he knowingly negotiated with someone he considered a killer. The way Tiller handled it didn't make him a killer. Impatience and insensitivity, doesn't equate to killing. At the time, Tiller was pushing to rush a legal and planned procedure. That doesn't make one a killer, regardless of how you personally view the ethics of it.

Yes it does. Let the rest of us know when you have been through it. Abortion without facts would be killing a viable fetus.

MagicHef
06-09-2009, 02:34 PM
Tiller was what he was. He knew that before he visited Tiller. He knew what Tiller's practice did. Despite the terrible way Tiller handled it, it still stands that he knowingly set up a meeting with him, and justified it at the time thinking it may be necessary. After it wasn't necessary, he claimed Tiller wanted to kill. He has every right to criticize Tiller for the way he handled it, but to call him a killer at that point means he knowingly negotiated with someone he considered a killer. The way Tiller handled it didn't make him a killer. Impatience and insensitivity, doesn't equate to killing. At the time, Tiller was pushing to rush a legal and planned procedure. That doesn't make one a killer, regardless of how you personally view the ethics of it.

You are really doing a good job of misrepresenting what Mojo Jojo said. This is the quote you apparently are basing your entire argument on:

We now have a healthy 12-year old who Dr. Tiller was willing to kill without final tests.

He never said Dr. Tiller "wanted" to kill, or even called him a killer. He said that he was willing to kill without final tests. What part of that criticism is undeserved?

MagicHef
06-09-2009, 02:36 PM
Tiller was what he was. He knew that before he visited Tiller. He knew what Tiller's practice did. Despite the terrible way Tiller handled it, it still stands that he knowingly set up a meeting with him, and justified it at the time thinking it may be necessary. After it wasn't necessary, he claimed Tiller wanted to kill. He has every right to criticize Tiller for the way he handled it, but to call him a killer at that point means he knowingly negotiated with someone he considered a killer. The way Tiller handled it didn't make him a killer. Impatience and insensitivity, doesn't equate to killing. At the time, Tiller was pushing to rush a legal and planned procedure. That doesn't make one a killer, regardless of how you personally view the ethics of it.

Also, by definition, Tillman was a killer regardless of the ethics of the situation.

Amnorix
06-09-2009, 02:53 PM
No more sucking a baby's brain from it's skull with a vaccuum cleaner? Darn.

Just remember, you don't oppose terrorists, just CERTAIN terrorists, depending on their cause.

I'll be sure to remember this is your position.

Fish
06-09-2009, 02:56 PM
You are really doing a good job of misrepresenting what Mojo Jojo said. This is the quote you apparently are basing your entire argument on:



He never said Dr. Tiller "wanted" to kill, or even called him a killer. He said that he was willing to kill without final tests. What part of that criticism is undeserved?

Well that quote is rather clear. Instead of the legal procedure that Tiller would have performed, the intentions change to "willing to kill". If the procedure would have been performed, it would have been perfectly legal, and thus not a murder. Thankfully it wasn't done.

kepp
06-09-2009, 02:57 PM
I will give you my real life Dr. Tiller story. My wife and I were expecting our first child, and some of tests were not in the normal range. We went to a genetic doctor for additional tests. During our sit down he let us know that if we were to terminate the pregnancy only Dr. Tiller would do it in Kansas and suggested talking with him.

My wife and I each took vacation days and drove to Wichita to meet with Dr. Tiller. During the meeting he suggested setting a time within the next two days to perform the procedure. My wife and I said we wanted the genetic test results first. At that time Dr. Tiller said these test would just confirm the worst and we should go ahead with the procedure to ease our minds. My wife and I said we would wait for the results and get get back to him. Then he replied that he was sure he would see us sometime soon.

Guess what...the test came back as a false negative. Everything was fine. We now have a healthy 12-year old who Dr. Tiller was willing to kill without final tests. The scary thing was once we questioned his decision and wanted to wait he became an used car salesman on why we need this today. Once we said no he acted as if I told you so and you will be back.

I can't think how much he thinks of himself and how little he thinks of others when this is the way he acts. I am so happy we had the strength to say just give it a few days and let's see what happens.

Wow...that's sobering. My wife and I talked to her OB about genetic testing during her second pregnancy because she was of "advanced" age (36) and we had to honestly discuss what our decision would be had birth defects been discovered. We're both definitely pro-life, but it was very eye-opening to discuss it in real terms. Thanks to God, everything turned out great and we have a healthy two year old daughter now.

MagicHef
06-09-2009, 03:00 PM
Well that quote is rather clear. Instead of the legal procedure that Tiller would have performed, the intentions change to "willing to kill". If the procedure would have been performed, it would have been perfectly legal, and thus not a murder. Thankfully it wasn't done.

The perfectly legal procedure does involve killing. Also, "kill" is not the same as "murder."

Amnorix
06-09-2009, 03:01 PM
Also, by definition, Tillman was a killer regardless of the ethics of the situation.

You can debate killer, but legal killing is not murder. Just as a soldier in a war zone or a person defending themself may be a killer, but not a murderer, by definition so was Dr. Tillman.

Be certain of your moral stance as regards acts of terrorism.

MagicHef
06-09-2009, 03:03 PM
You can debate killer, but legal killing is not murder. Just as a soldier in a war zone or a person defending themself may be a killer, but not a murderer, by definition so was Dr. Tillman.

Be certain of your moral stance as regards acts of terrorism.

I never said anything about Dr. Tillman being a murderer. I also never said anything about his killer not being a terrorist.

Duck Dog
06-09-2009, 04:58 PM
Tillers murder was just a really late term abortion.

Direckshun
06-09-2009, 05:01 PM
Terror works.

Duck Dog
06-09-2009, 05:01 PM
I think we should post some late term abortion pics for those of you that think abortion isn't taking a life.

jjjayb
06-09-2009, 05:08 PM
He also did legit abortions as the story I posted says.

As long as the abortion is legit what is the problem?

As Legit as the abortion Tiller wanted to perform on MoJo's baby? :shake:

jjjayb
06-09-2009, 05:09 PM
I think we should post some late term abortion pics for those of you that think abortion isn't taking a life.

Page 3 of this thread.

RedNeckRaider
06-09-2009, 05:15 PM
The problem for the far-right anti-abortion kooks it is a cut and dry issue and they could care less about the circumstances.

The same applies to the far-left pro-choice kooks who are in favor of all late-term abortions even for petty reasons.

Everybody needs to meet in the middle on this because both sides have legit points.

This is where the problem is. You are right and you make total sense. Sadly the right wingnuts and the left wingnuts will never give an inch from their stance.

mlyonsd
06-09-2009, 05:44 PM
Terror works.

Actually you're correct from both sides.

The terror Tiller inflicted, legitimezed (in his own mind) the terror of another.

Crazy.

Direckshun
06-09-2009, 05:46 PM
Actually you're correct from both sides.

The terror Tiller inflicted, legitimezed (in his own mind) the terror of another.

Crazy.

I'm talking about terrorism, the act of force to coerce a political outcome.

But you probably already knew that, and you probably already don't care.

mlyonsd
06-09-2009, 06:05 PM
I'm talking about terrorism, the act of force to coerce a political outcome.

But you probably already knew that, and you probably already don't care.

Then back to your original post, evidently terrorism doesn't work because late term abortions are still legal.

And if mojo's story is accurate Tiller should be in jail for attempted murder for profit, not murdered himself.

Mojo Jojo
06-09-2009, 06:07 PM
I'm talking about terrorism, the act of force to coerce a political outcome.

But you probably already knew that, and you probably already don't care.

Such a limited view. Couldn't the case be made that it is an act of force to coerce an outcome political or social? The force could also be physical or mental. That is the case being made against Gittmo. Therefore the same case could be made against Dr. Tiller or his killer.

Direckshun
06-09-2009, 06:14 PM
Then back to your original post, evidently terrorism doesn't work because late term abortions are still legal.

So to shield yourself from reality you'll just change the scope of the situation until you get the reality you want.

This isn't rocket science, but I'll hold your hand if you need me to.

Direckshun
06-09-2009, 06:17 PM
Such a limited view. Couldn't the case be made that it is an act of force to coerce an outcome political or social? The force could also be physical or mental. That is the case being made against Gittmo. Therefore the same case could be made against Dr. Tiller or his killer.

It's a limited view because I actually limit the definition of terrorism to specifically terrorism. I don't expand it to your ridiculous extent to include any bad, forceful thing one person could do.

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 06:19 PM
As Legit as the abortion Tiller wanted to perform on MoJo's baby? :shake:

I never said anything about mojo's baby. But lets hypothetically say that the test was opposite of it was and they were going to abort it. Do you have a problem with that?

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 06:20 PM
Then back to your original post, evidently terrorism doesn't work because late term abortions are still legal.

And if mojo's story is accurate Tiller should be in jail for attempted murder for profit, not murdered himself.

In this case terrorism did work because they are closing the clinic and that is one less doctor to perform legal abortions.

Direckshun
06-09-2009, 06:23 PM
In this case terrorism did work because they are closing the clinic and that is one less doctor to perform legal abortions.

No no no, you see, we have to expand the situation until it's so big that clearly the terrorism failed and Direckshun will therefore be wrong.

It's not that the clinic closed, it's that all clinics in existence aren't closed yet!

Wait wait...

It's not that all clinics in existence aren't closed yet, it's that all human life actual and potential isn't yet shielded from execution. I mean look at what's happening in Darfur... did Tiller's murder end genocide in Darfur? I think not.

dirk digler
06-09-2009, 06:28 PM
No no no, you see, we have to expand the situation until it's so big that clearly the terrorism failed and Direckshun will therefore be wrong.

It's not that the clinic closed, it's that all clinics in existence aren't closed yet!

Wait wait...

It's not that all clinics in existence aren't closed yet, it's that all human life actual and potential isn't yet shielded from execution. I mean look at what's happening in Darfur... did Tiller's murder end genocide in Darfur? I think not.

You are always wrong direckshun don't you know that already? :p

Direckshun
06-09-2009, 06:29 PM
You are always wrong direckshun don't you know that already? :p

I'm getting there.

Mojo Jojo
06-09-2009, 06:30 PM
It's a limited view because I actually limit the definition of terrorism to specifically terrorism. I don't expand it to your ridiculous extent to include any bad, forceful thing one person could do.

So according to you...terrorism is a limited focus. Outside of that is ridiculous. Terrorism can be defined as creating a state of fear. Physical actions are not exclusive.

Direckshun
06-09-2009, 06:40 PM
So according to you...terrorism is a limited focus. Outside of that is ridiculous. Terrorism can be defined as creating a state of fear. Physical actions are not exclusive.

So our troops in Iraq have been terrorists.

LMAO

Mojo Jojo
06-09-2009, 06:46 PM
So our troops in Iraq have been terrorists.

LMAO

And so is our current President when it comes to bailing out companies.
LMAO

mlyonsd
06-09-2009, 06:47 PM
So to shield yourself from reality you'll just change the scope of the situation until you get the reality you want.

This isn't rocket science, but I'll hold your hand if you need me to.

It's your reality pal. What about my post shielded me from reality?

irishjayhawk
06-09-2009, 06:53 PM
I will give you my real life Dr. Tiller story. My wife and I were expecting our first child, and some of tests were not in the normal range. We went to a genetic doctor for additional tests. During our sit down he let us know that if we were to terminate the pregnancy only Dr. Tiller would do it in Kansas and suggested talking with him.

My wife and I each took vacation days and drove to Wichita to meet with Dr. Tiller. During the meeting he suggested setting a time within the next two days to perform the procedure. My wife and I said we wanted the genetic test results first. At that time Dr. Tiller said these test would just confirm the worst and we should go ahead with the procedure to ease our minds. My wife and I said we would wait for the results and get get back to him. Then he replied that he was sure he would see us sometime soon.

Guess what...the test came back as a false negative. Everything was fine. We now have a healthy 12-year old who Dr. Tiller was willing to kill without final tests. The scary thing was once we questioned his decision and wanted to wait he became an used car salesman on why we need this today. Once we said no he acted as if I told you so and you will be back.

I can't think how much he thinks of himself and how little he thinks of others when this is the way he acts. I am so happy we had the strength to say just give it a few days and let's see what happens.

By that logic, you should be convicted of conspiracy to commit murder just by approaching the "murderer".

mlyonsd
06-09-2009, 07:02 PM
By that logic, you should be convicted of conspiracy to commit murder just by approaching the "murderer".

And with your logic murder is ok, as long as the law allows it.

Direckshun
06-09-2009, 07:06 PM
It's your reality pal. What about my post shielded me from reality?

The terrorist strike against the abortion clinic resulted in it closing down, making it even harder to attain an abortion in this country.

If that's not effective terrorism, nothing is.

Adept Havelock
06-09-2009, 07:12 PM
And with your logic murder is ok, as long as the law allows it.

:spock:

Murder- According to the Oxford English Dictionary (generally accepted by English-Language types as the definitive work on the language):

murder

• noun 1 the unlawful premeditated killing of one person by another. 2 informal a very difficult or unpleasant situation or experience.

• verb 1 kill unlawfully and with premeditation. 2 informal spoil by poor performance. 3 informal, chiefly Brit. consume (food or drink) with relish.

If it's legal, it's not murder. Murder is defined as an "unlawful premeditated killing". :shrug:

I'd say that given that definition, his logic is on more solid ground than yours.

The terrorist strike against the abortion clinic resulted in it closing down, making it even harder to attain an abortion in this country.

If that's not effective terrorism, nothing is.

Indeed. An act of political/social/religious violence from someone who:

1) Obviously planned and infiltrated a church for the purpose of murder.

2) Has a history of illegally possessing and transporting explosive materials.

3) Belongs to a fringe political organization which denies any authority on the part of the Federal Govt.

4) Claims to know of many similar attacks being planned.

How is this not a case of domestic terrorism like the Weathermen, SLA, OK City, etc? :shrug:

RedNeckRaider
06-09-2009, 07:13 PM
I will give you my real life Dr. Tiller story. My wife and I were expecting our first child, and some of tests were not in the normal range. We went to a genetic doctor for additional tests. During our sit down he let us know that if we were to terminate the pregnancy only Dr. Tiller would do it in Kansas and suggested talking with him.

My wife and I each took vacation days and drove to Wichita to meet with Dr. Tiller. During the meeting he suggested setting a time within the next two days to perform the procedure. My wife and I said we wanted the genetic test results first. At that time Dr. Tiller said these test would just confirm the worst and we should go ahead with the procedure to ease our minds. My wife and I said we would wait for the results and get get back to him. Then he replied that he was sure he would see us sometime soon.

Guess what...the test came back as a false negative. Everything was fine. We now have a healthy 12-year old who Dr. Tiller was willing to kill without final tests. The scary thing was once we questioned his decision and wanted to wait he became an used car salesman on why we need this today. Once we said no he acted as if I told you so and you will be back.

I can't think how much he thinks of himself and how little he thinks of others when this is the way he acts. I am so happy we had the strength to say just give it a few days and let's see what happens.

When I stated he was no hero I was painted as a right wingnut. I am far from a right winger. Your post is why I think little of the man, his supporters can dance all they want, he was what he was, and if someone thinks this guy was a hero I am sure they have no idea of the definition of the word "hero"

Mojo Jojo
06-09-2009, 07:16 PM
By that logic, you should be convicted of conspiracy to commit murder just by approaching the "murderer".

Wow, you may be the dumbest person on the face of the earth. I never said that we would not consider our options, but didn't say we would do the abortion. Dr. Tiller was willing to, wanted to, and tried to do an operation on my wife without all the facts. If someone is convected of murder should we put him/her to death that day? That is now your argument.

Please Irishjayhawk, be honest...How many kids do you have? Have you ever had a moment in life that made you question prior beliefs?

mlyonsd
06-09-2009, 08:00 PM
:spock:

Murder- According to the Oxford English Dictionary (generally accepted by English-Language types as the definitive work on the language):

murder

• noun 1 the unlawful premeditated killing of one person by another. 2 informal a very difficult or unpleasant situation or experience.

• verb 1 kill unlawfully and with premeditation. 2 informal spoil by poor performance. 3 informal, chiefly Brit. consume (food or drink) with relish.

If it's legal, it's not murder. Murder is defined as an "unlawful premeditated killing". :shrug:

I'd say that given that definition, his logic is on more solid ground than yours.





Hardly. By your definitions Tiller wanting to perform a late term abortion in mojo's case for no apparent reason fits it.

mlyonsd
06-09-2009, 08:06 PM
The terrorist strike against the abortion clinic resulted in it closing down, making it even harder to attain an abortion in this country.

If that's not effective terrorism, nothing is.

Your argument is false because there is no legal reason the clinic shut down.

Our laws haven't changed because some guy got murdered.

Adept Havelock
06-09-2009, 08:17 PM
Hardly. By your definitions Tiller wanting to perform a late term abortion in mojo's case for no apparent reason fits it.

You're the one who suggested Direckshun had no problem with murder, as long as it was legal.

And with your logic murder is ok, as long as the law allows it.


Sounds like your issue is with the English language and the fact that it's not murder just because you feel it should be considered such.

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=5828277&postcount=88

It has to be illegal to qualify as murder. :shrug:

memyselfI
06-09-2009, 08:56 PM
Somewhere terrorists are popping champagne corks and plotting their next victim....:rolleyes:

wild1
06-09-2009, 09:13 PM
I wonder what it would do with a kid's psyche, if they knew that their parents were going to abort them if they had a physical deformity or some other issue.

Is it very far from a more direct approach to eugenics, I wonder?

I'm not talking about whomever it was who consulted with Tiller, just in general terms. It would have to really mess you up to know your parents were going to put you down if you didn't appear to be perfect.

Mojo Jojo
06-09-2009, 09:40 PM
I wonder what it would do with a kid's psyche, if they knew that their parents were going to abort them if they had a physical deformity or some other issue.

Is it very far from a more direct approach to eugenics, I wonder?

I'm not talking about whomever it was who consulted with Tiller, just in general terms. It would have to really mess you up to know your parents were going to put you down if you didn't appear to be perfect.

If your children are smart enough you are able to discuss with them many concepts. You would be surprised. My guess is that you have no children.

irishjayhawk
06-09-2009, 09:42 PM
Wow, you may be the dumbest person on the face of the earth. I never said that we would not consider our options, but didn't say we would do the abortion. Dr. Tiller was willing to, wanted to, and tried to do an operation on my wife without all the facts. If someone is convected of murder should we put him/her to death that day? That is now your argument.

I never said that I would not consider my options but I didn't say I'd hire the hitman.

And I have no idea what you're talking about with convected of murder and death in the same day and how that's anywhere close to my argument.


Please Irishjayhawk, be honest...How many kids do you have? Have you ever had a moment in life that made you question prior beliefs?

No kids, yet. And I've had many moments that made me question my prior beliefs. It's hard to drop religion immediately.

RedNeckRaider
06-09-2009, 09:43 PM
I wonder what it would do with a kid's psyche, if they knew that their parents were going to abort them if they had a physical deformity or some other issue.

Is it very far from a more direct approach to eugenics, I wonder?

I'm not talking about whomever it was who consulted with Tiller, just in general terms. It would have to really mess you up to know your parents were going to put you down if you didn't appear to be perfect.

So you question the parents but not the guy who wanted to kill the kid on the CHANCE it my have problems :rolleyes:

irishjayhawk
06-09-2009, 09:45 PM
Hardly. By your definitions Tiller wanting to perform a late term abortion in mojo's case for no apparent reason fits it.

I don't think it does for a variety of reasons.

First, it's a legal procedure.

Second, whether Tiller wanted to or not, he wasn't just finding people and attempting to proceed. They came to him.

Thirdly, what exactly is my logic on murder (per your other post)?

Direckshun
06-09-2009, 11:02 PM
Somewhere terrorists are popping champagne corks and plotting their next victim....:rolleyes:

YOU ARE A WILDLY PRO-CHOICE WOMAN. How can you be okay with this?

Direckshun
06-09-2009, 11:03 PM
Your argument is false because there is no legal reason the clinic shut down.

Terrorism depends on changes in legality?

Swing and a miss.

MagicHef
06-10-2009, 12:12 AM
By that logic, you should be convicted of conspiracy to commit murder just by approaching the "murderer".

I like how you have the word murderer in quotes, as if the word appeared anywhere in the post you quoted.

jAZ
06-10-2009, 12:53 AM
Terrorism works.

memyselfI
06-10-2009, 08:01 AM
YOU ARE A WILDLY PRO-CHOICE WOMAN. How can you be okay with this?

I'm not ok with this. This will only encourage other RWNJs to go to the same extremes expecting the same results. Terrorism worked here.

I don't blame the Tiller family though. They have paid the ultimate price for their attempts to further choice. They have every right to make this call.

I blame the FBI who ignored repeated red flags and warnings that this man in particular was a danger. And for ignoring Federal Law by not enforcing existing laws on the books protecting these clinics and their employees.

Chief Henry
06-10-2009, 08:37 AM
Somewhere terrorists are popping champagne corks and plotting their next victim....:rolleyes:

Thats been happening since Obamas been president.

irishjayhawk
06-10-2009, 09:09 AM
I like how you have the word murderer in quotes, as if the word appeared anywhere in the post you quoted.

That's what you call someone when you want to convict them of murder. Like he was deducing.

MagicHef
06-10-2009, 09:13 AM
That's what you call someone when you want to convict them of murder. Like he was deducing.

I think you'll have to show me where he was deducing that.

RaiderH8r
06-10-2009, 09:15 AM
Terrorism works.

Only when people are cowardly enough to let it.

Has anybody posted how many abortion drs have been murdered since Roe v. Wade by these "terrorists"? How many clinics have been shut down since Roe v. Wade due to these "terrorists"? These seem like important points if people are going to bandy about phrases like "Terrorism works." Of course just categorizing the entire pro-life movement as terrorists fits nicely with an agenda of avoiding the difficult debate and simply marginalizing the opposing point of view.

irishjayhawk
06-10-2009, 09:38 AM
I think you'll have to show me where he was deducing that.

Sorry, mea culpa. The line of questioning starts with that post. I quoted the wrong post(s). Having said that, you missed others saying "killer" so I wonder if you draw a distinction?

irishjayhawk
06-10-2009, 09:40 AM
Thats been happening since Obamas been president.

ROFL

Like it's a new occurrence or something.

Only when people are cowardly enough to let it.

Has anybody posted how many abortion drs have been murdered since Roe v. Wade by these "terrorists"? How many clinics have been shut down since Roe v. Wade due to these "terrorists"? These seem like important points if people are going to bandy about phrases like "Terrorism works." Of course just categorizing the entire pro-life movement as terrorists fits nicely with an agenda of avoiding the difficult debate and simply marginalizing the opposing point of view.

One question you haven't considered is: How many clinics haven't opened because of the constant threats, vandalism, and attempts at lives?

MagicHef
06-10-2009, 09:42 AM
Sorry, mea culpa. The line of questioning starts with that post. I quoted the wrong post(s). Having said that, you missed others saying "killer" so I wonder if you draw a distinction?

Of course I draw a distinction between a killer and a murderer. Dr. Tillman was a killer. He was not a murderer (so far as I know).

***SPRAYER
06-10-2009, 09:43 AM
Only when people are cowardly enough to let it.

Has anybody posted how many abortion drs have been murdered since Roe v. Wade by these "terrorists"? How many clinics have been shut down since Roe v. Wade due to these "terrorists"? These seem like important points if people are going to bandy about phrases like "Terrorism works." Of course just categorizing the entire pro-life movement as terrorists fits nicely with an agenda of avoiding the difficult debate and simply marginalizing the opposing point of view.

When I become dictator, I'm going to open up Libtard Abortion clinics---

Late term abortion will no longer be restricted to the third trimester.

kOZ, how old are you again?

irishjayhawk
06-10-2009, 09:44 AM
Of course I draw a distinction between a killer and a murderer. Dr. Tillman was a killer. He was not a murderer (so far as I know).

Well, then I think my original post stands. Especially with quotes and all.

dirk digler
06-10-2009, 09:44 AM
Only when people are cowardly enough to let it.

Has anybody posted how many abortion drs have been murdered since Roe v. Wade by these "terrorists"? How many clinics have been shut down since Roe v. Wade due to these "terrorists"? These seem like important points if people are going to bandy about phrases like "Terrorism works." Of course just categorizing the entire pro-life movement as terrorists fits nicely with an agenda of avoiding the difficult debate and simply marginalizing the opposing point of view.

Let me ask you this. Did you know in 2006 Bush designated Animal rights groups as Domestic terrorists?

How many animal doctors have been killed? How many animal clinics have been shut down because of them due to these "terrorists". These seem like important points if people are going to bandy about phrases like "Terrorism works." Of course just categorizing the entire animal right movement as terrorists fits nicely with an agenda of avoiding the difficult debate and simply marginalizing the opposing point of view.

***SPRAYER
06-10-2009, 09:46 AM
Let me ask you this. Did you know in 2006 Bush designated Animal rights groups as Domestic terrorists?

MAN MADE DISASTER

Would you please get the new terminology correct? Thank you.

dirk digler
06-10-2009, 09:46 AM
When I become dictator, I'm going to open up Libtard Abortion clinics---

Late term abortion will no longer be restricted to the third trimester.

kOZ, how old are you again?

You better start with yourself

***SPRAYER
06-10-2009, 09:47 AM
Well, then I think my original post stands. Especially with quotes and all.

Abortion should be legal even after the third trimester, that way we can flush you down the toilet.

MagicHef
06-10-2009, 09:48 AM
Well, then I think my original post stands. Especially with quotes and all.

What? He still never called Dr. Tillman a murderer, as you are trying to insinuate.

irishjayhawk
06-10-2009, 10:07 AM
What? He still never called Dr. Tillman a murderer, as you are trying to insinuate.

Called specifically, no. Said in a round about way, yes. Or wait, killer.

MagicHef
06-10-2009, 10:09 AM
Called specifically, no. Said in a round about way, yes. Or wait, killer.

Do you see a distinction between murderer and killer?

Cannibal
06-10-2009, 10:12 AM
Abortion should be legal even after the third trimester, that way we can flush you down the toilet.

God you're a worthless waste of oxygen. You're such a big talker. You're probably like 5'-0" to 5'-2" tall and weigh like 280 to 300lbs with a tiny dong.

Definate short guy complex.

irishjayhawk
06-10-2009, 10:12 AM
Do you see a distinction between murderer and killer?

Not really.

How is one a killer but not a murderer?

MagicHef
06-10-2009, 10:15 AM
Not really.

How is one a killer but not a murderer?

I'll just go ahead and reference Adept Havelock:

:spock:

Murder- According to the Oxford English Dictionary (generally accepted by English-Language types as the definitive work on the language):

murder

noun 1 the unlawful premeditated killing of one person by another. 2 informal a very difficult or unpleasant situation or experience.

verb 1 kill unlawfully and with premeditation. 2 informal spoil by poor performance. 3 informal, chiefly Brit. consume (food or drink) with relish.

If it's legal, it's not murder. Murder is defined as an "unlawful premeditated killing". :shrug:

RaiderH8r
06-10-2009, 10:23 AM
ROFL

Like it's a new occurrence or something.



One question you haven't considered is: How many clinics haven't opened because of the constant threats, vandalism, and attempts at lives?

I haven't considered the question because it has no answer. How many people dead since Roe v. Wade? That has a definitive answer. How many clinics shut down may have a less defninitive answer but considering the amount of ink this clinic's closing is getting and the rhetoric being bandied about as a result I imagine the pro-abortion movement would be pretty forthcoming with the stat that "This is (X) number of clinics that have been shut down due to terrorist activity. (X) fewer clinics to service....blah blah blah." (They can write their own press release, you get my point.)

RaiderH8r
06-10-2009, 10:26 AM
Let me ask you this. Did you know in 2006 Bush designated Animal rights groups as Domestic terrorists?

How many animal doctors have been killed? How many animal clinics have been shut down because of them due to these "terrorists". These seem like important points if people are going to bandy about phrases like "Terrorism works." Of course just categorizing the entire animal right movement as terrorists fits nicely with an agenda of avoiding the difficult debate and simply marginalizing the opposing point of view.

Dude, this is twice on the same page my question has been answered with a question in the form of a rebuttal.

I haven't categorized animal rights as jack shit, I haven't mentioned them. Assigning me a position fits neatly with avoiding the question at hand.

My questions are simple and, if the answers bear out the accusations, only serve to help the cause of pro-abortionists. However, if they do not bear out the accusations it demonstrates that the -pro-abortionists are less interested in the debate and more interested in the rhetoric of marginilization and accusation.

dirk digler
06-10-2009, 10:46 AM
Dude, this is twice on the same page my question has been answered with a question in the form of a rebuttal.

I haven't categorized animal rights as jack shit, I haven't mentioned them. Assigning me a position fits neatly with avoiding the question at hand.

My questions are simple and, if the answers bear out the accusations, only serve to help the cause of pro-abortionists. However, if they do not bear out the accusations it demonstrates that the -pro-abortionists are less interested in the debate and more interested in the rhetoric of marginilization and accusation.

My point is a trivial group like animal rights are deemed by a POTUS as domestic terrorist but a group of pro-lifers (not all) that actually kill people and bomb people are not.

I just find that strange.

As far as your question goes 10-12 people have been killed by pro-lifers.

RaiderH8r
06-10-2009, 11:11 AM
My point is a trivial group like animal rights are deemed by a POTUS as domestic terrorist but a group of pro-lifers (not all) that actually kill people and bomb people are not.

I just find that strange.

As far as your question goes 10-12 people have been killed by pro-lifers.

10-12? Is there some dispute between the two? Like "10 were killed by the bombing but 2 got trampled to death in the ensuing maelstrom."? Doesn't really matter.

The point is they're averaging about 1 murder/3 years, a little less.

According to Pew's latest polling data http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/More-Americans-Pro-Life-Than-Pro-Choice-First-Time.aspx the trend is pretty equal when normalized over time. So, currently roughly half of a nation opposes abortion, tens of millions of people. One guy murders one Dr. and those tens of millions are lumped in as being one and the same and asserted to be complicit in the murder of one Dr. and roughly .33 deaths/year seems ludicrous.

Moreover, if there were a group that was "We Kill Dr.'s to save babies" they'd be on a terror watch list. These are individuals acting individually and, as such, should be treated as murderers. The pro-life movement is not a terrorist group.

Meanwhile this nation bent over backwards not to offend Muslims following 9-11 asserting Islam is a nation of peace. Fine...Dandy. Where are these same people now? Why isn't the NY Times proclaiming Pro-Lifers to be an association of peace loving people who are not represented by the nutty few?

Cannibal
06-10-2009, 11:17 AM
10-12? Is there some dispute between the two? Like "10 were killed by the bombing but 2 got trampled to death in the ensuing maelstrom."? Doesn't really matter.

The point is they're averaging about 1 murder/3 years, a little less.

According to Pew's latest polling data http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/More-Americans-Pro-Life-Than-Pro-Choice-First-Time.aspx the trend is pretty equal when normalized over time. So, currently roughly half of a nation opposes abortion, tens of millions of people. One guy murders one Dr. and those tens of millions are lumped in as being one and the same and asserted to be complicit in the murder of one Dr. and roughly .33 deaths/year seems ludicrous.

Moreover, if there were a group that was "We Kill Dr.'s to save babies" they'd be on a terror watch list. These are individuals acting individually and, as such, should be treated as murderers. The pro-life movement is not a terrorist group.

Meanwhile this nation bent over backwards not to offend Muslims following 9-11 asserting Islam is a nation of peace. Fine...Dandy. Where are these same people now? Why isn't the NY Times proclaiming Pro-Lifers to be an association of peace loving people who are not represented by the nutty few?

Again, 68% DO NOT want Roe v. Wade overturned despite more calling themselves pro-life now.

Someone recently posted a link showing 6,000+ acts consisting of threats (actual threats where they called the clinic and threatened employees), bombings, killings and vandalism to clinics.

RaiderH8r
06-10-2009, 11:22 AM
Again, 68% DO NOT want Roe v. Wade overturned despite more calling themselves pro-life now.

Someone recently posted a link showing 6,000+ acts consisting of threats (actual threats where they called the clinic and threatened employees), bombings, killings and vandalism to clinics.

And how often are clinics closed as a result? So far I've got 1. 6,000+ acts defined as what? Over what period of time? Annually? How does that break down on a per clinic basis? I get "threats" all the time. I'm pretty sure I'm on a hippie hit list. They're looking for me but I have the interwebs to obscure my identity....MUA HAHAHAHA

I'm part of that 68%...I am pro-choice.

Cannibal
06-10-2009, 11:30 AM
And how often are clinics closed as a result? So far I've got 1. 6,000+ acts defined as what? Over what period of time? Annually? How does that break down on a per clinic basis? I get "threats" all the time. I'm pretty sure I'm on a hippie hit list. They're looking for me but I have the interwebs to obscure my identity....MUA HAHAHAHA

I'm part of that 68%...I am pro-choice.

When factoring period time, we should be aware that in general the activities (call them terrorist or don't I don't really give a fuck on that) stop when a Republican is President and then start again when a Democrat is in office.

RaiderH8r
06-10-2009, 11:36 AM
When factoring period time, we should be aware that in general the activities (call them terrorist or don't I don't really give a **** on that) stop when a Republican is President and then start again when a Democrat is in office.

You're telling me nutters hang up their case of crazy depending on who is in the oval office?

I reserve the right to call bullshit pending provided data to support that claim.

The statement presumes lunatics are partisan and really lose interest in their "F'ing baby killers!" hatred when a Republican is President despite the fact that the abortions continue and the Dr's performing them still live. That flies in the face of everything known about nuttery.

irishjayhawk
06-10-2009, 11:40 AM
I'll just go ahead and reference Adept Havelock:

ME: STFU

irishjayhawk
06-10-2009, 11:41 AM
I haven't considered the question because it has no answer. How many people dead since Roe v. Wade? That has a definitive answer. How many clinics shut down may have a less defninitive answer but considering the amount of ink this clinic's closing is getting and the rhetoric being bandied about as a result I imagine the pro-abortion movement would be pretty forthcoming with the stat that "This is (X) number of clinics that have been shut down due to terrorist activity. (X) fewer clinics to service....blah blah blah." (They can write their own press release, you get my point.)

It may not have a quantifiable answer but in no way does that mean it isn't an indicator that terrorism works.

Cannibal
06-10-2009, 11:41 AM
You're telling me nutters hang up their case of crazy depending on who is in the oval office?

I reserve the right to call bullshit pending provided data to support that claim.

The statement presumes lunatics are partisan and really lose interest in their "F'ing baby killers!" hatred when a Republican is President despite the fact that the abortions continue and the Dr's performing them still live. That flies in the face of everything known about nuttery.

The trends show that these actions increase when a Dem is in office and decrease drastically when a Rep is in office. I guess when the borderline nuts sees their side lose, it pushes them over the top and then they take action because they feel they have no choice.

RaiderH8r
06-10-2009, 11:46 AM
It may not have a quantifiable answer but in no way does that mean it isn't an indicator that terrorism works.

How can it be an indicator if the number doesn't exist? Without quantifiable data it can not be a valid assertion that terrorism works to dissuade people from opening clinics.

RaiderH8r
06-10-2009, 11:51 AM
The trends show that these actions increase when a Dem is in office and decrease drastically when a Rep is in office. I guess when the borderline nuts sees their side lose, it pushes them over the top and then they take action because they feel they have no choice.

Which trends? I'm actually quite interested in this phenomenon should it exist. Moreover do these data sets demonstrate on a timeline abortion dr. murders? Is there a coincidence with administration in that data set?

Does the data devine how many "unique" threats are made? I.E. is one person making a 100 threats or are a 100 people making singular threats? Seems to me if one is willing to make a threat of the sort you've discussed they would be willing to make multiple which, again, supports my position that the whole should not be defined by the actions of the few. Just as we (citizens of the US) were begged not to seek retaliation against Muslims following 9-11 and that Islam is a religion of peace.

Why are no such admonitions being made now on behalf of a segment of the American populace, pro-life, that is immensely greater than the number of Muslims in the US? Additionally, as the 68% figure points out and I reflect in my own views why is the point not made that 68% support a woman's right to choose but affiliate themselves as pro-life?

irishjayhawk
06-10-2009, 11:54 AM
How can it be an indicator if the number doesn't exist? Without quantifiable data it can not be a valid assertion that terrorism works to dissuade people from opening clinics.

Well, I wasn't the one who said it has no answer. And it seemed that this was because it doesn't exist rather than someone hasn't run the numbers.

I'm confident that it's a safe assumption - regardless of numbers - that clinics aren't opening up everywhere because of the terror surrounding them. Not many people are going to open up shop in the air of constant threats.

dirk digler
06-10-2009, 12:04 PM
10-12? Is there some dispute between the two? Like "10 were killed by the bombing but 2 got trampled to death in the ensuing maelstrom."? Doesn't really matter.

The point is they're averaging about 1 murder/3 years, a little less.

According to Pew's latest polling data http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/More-Americans-Pro-Life-Than-Pro-Choice-First-Time.aspx the trend is pretty equal when normalized over time. So, currently roughly half of a nation opposes abortion, tens of millions of people. One guy murders one Dr. and those tens of millions are lumped in as being one and the same and asserted to be complicit in the murder of one Dr. and roughly .33 deaths/year seems ludicrous.

Moreover, if there were a group that was "We Kill Dr.'s to save babies" they'd be on a terror watch list. These are individuals acting individually and, as such, should be treated as murderers. The pro-life movement is not a terrorist group.

Meanwhile this nation bent over backwards not to offend Muslims following 9-11 asserting Islam is a nation of peace. Fine...Dandy. Where are these same people now? Why isn't the NY Times proclaiming Pro-Lifers to be an association of peace loving people who are not represented by the nutty few?

I think a couple of them were security guards or something like that.

I would consider Operation Rescue a terrorist group and the guy that killed Tiller was a member.