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View Full Version : Other Sports MJ > Kobe... Forever and Ever. Amen.


SPATCH
06-12-2009, 02:12 PM
I just wanted to get this out there before somebody tried to come in here and claim anything otherwise...

I started to get into this argument the other day with one of my friends when he tried to claim that Kobe was better because, "The players are better today."

I answered back with the fact that MJ never played with a post presence like ****ING SHAQ or Pau Gasol and some of the other typical stuff about "6 rings" and what not....

But then I really started to think about the comment that he had made. That "the players are better today." And I realized something. That's complete bullshit. I started to think about all those championships and all those series leading up to them....

And I realized something... Forget the fact that Jordan had to play with Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley at Center. Michael Jordan was a cold-blooded, ruthless legend-slayer. Legend after legend was brought before him and he said, "**** you" to each one of them. After his sixth year in the league, when Phil Jackson became head coach, MJ bought into the team concept and became un-mother****in-stoppable...

Think about all those great teams and legends that MJ took down:

Thomas and Laimbeer
Magic Johnson and James Worthy
Drexler
Barkley
Payton and Kemp (who were incredible that year)
Stockton and Malone
... all of those Patrick Ewing teams and all of those Reggie Miller teams

Now think about Kobe... who were the Lakers main competition when they three-peated? It was those Portland and Sacremento teams... the Blazers had Pippen, Steve Smith, Rasheed Wallace, Brian Grant; no one truly legendary. The Kings had Bibby, Webber, Divac but, again, no one truly legendary.

Then they went on to beat those daunting 76's and Nets teams... you know, the teams that struck fear into everyone's heart.

They did beat Robinson and Duncan... but that's about it as far as legends go.

Kobe has lost in the finals twice. Jordan lost a total of NONE times in the finals. He simply wouldn't allow his teams to lose...

It doesn't matter what happens in this year's finals or in any other after this... Jordan will always be known as the better player.

Ebolapox
06-12-2009, 02:15 PM
yep.

wutamess
06-12-2009, 02:18 PM
COMUTHAFUGGINSIGN!

BigCatDaddy
06-12-2009, 02:18 PM
It would be hard to make an arguement Kobe is better then Jordan was. However, I think when it's all said and done Lebron will come closer to taking over the throne as greatest ever.

I think there are better athletes in the NBA today, just not better basketball players.

Rooster
06-12-2009, 02:19 PM
Preaching to the choir. o:-)

-King-
06-12-2009, 02:21 PM
It would be hard to make an arguement Kobe is better then Jordan was. However, I think when it's all said and done Lebron will come closer to taking over the throne as greatest ever.

I think there are better athletes in the NBA today, just not better basketball players.

Kobe is better than lebron. He's much closer to Jordan than lebron is/will ever be.
Posted via Mobile Device

88TG88
06-12-2009, 02:21 PM
Who was trying to argue with you ?

Woodrow Call
06-12-2009, 02:22 PM
Kobe is better than lebron. He's much closer to Jordan than lebron is/will ever be.
Posted via Mobile Device

This

88TG88
06-12-2009, 02:22 PM
BTW, this ad at the bottom of the page made me laugh.

Ari Chi3fs
06-12-2009, 02:24 PM
Kobe is better than lebron. He's much closer to Jordan than lebron is/will ever be.
Posted via Mobile Device


Lebron is like 23 years old... Jordan was just entering the league... to think that Lebron has like 15 years or more left in the tank.

I'd say it's a bit early to make any grand conclusions as to Lebron's ability.

SPATCH
06-12-2009, 02:24 PM
It would be hard to make an arguement Kobe is better then Jordan was. However, I think when it's all said and done Lebron will come closer to taking over the throne as greatest ever.

I think there are better athletes in the NBA today, just not better basketball players.

That's another thing.... I think that it's harder to compare LeBron and MJ than Kobe and MJ... LeBron's a forward

but you're right.. he's definitely got a chance to, down the road, become widely known as, "the greatest of all time."

sedated
06-12-2009, 02:25 PM
Kobe is better than lebron. He's much closer to Jordan than lebron is/will ever be.
Posted via Mobile Device

I disagree with the "will ever be" part. Lebron has a few years left. If they get another Shaq-type superstar, who knows how many championships they could get (and chances are Lebron won't boot the other guy out of town simply due to ego)

El Jefe
06-12-2009, 02:28 PM
I just wanted to get this out there before somebody tried to come in here and claim anything otherwise...

I started to get into this argument the other day with one of my friends when he tried to claim that Kobe was better because, "The players are better today."

I answered back with the fact that MJ never played with a post presence like ****ING SHAQ or Pau Gasol and some of the other typical stuff about "6 rings" and what not....

But then I really started to think about the comment that he had made. That "the players are better today." And I realized something. That's complete bullshit. I started to think about all those championships and all those series leading up to them....

And I realized something... Forget the fact that Jordan had to play with Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley at Center. Michael Jordan was a cold-blooded, ruthless legend-slayer. Legend after legend was brought before him and he said, "**** you" to each one of them. After his sixth year in the league, when Phil Jackson became head coach, MJ bought into the team concept and became un-mother****in-stoppable...

Think about all those great teams and legends that MJ took down:

Thomas and Laimbeer
Magic Johnson and James Worthy
Drexler
Barkley
Payton and Kemp (who were incredible that year)
Stockton and Malone
... all of those Patrick Ewing teams and all of those Reggie Miller teams

Now think about Kobe... who were the Lakers main competition when they three-peated? It was those Portland and Sacremento teams... the Blazers had Pippen, Steve Smith, Rasheed Wallace, Brian Grant; no one truly legendary. The Kings had Bibby, Webber, Divac but, again, no one truly legendary.

Then they went on to beat those daunting 76's and Nets teams... you know, the teams that struck fear into everyone's heart.

They did beat Robinson and Duncan... but that's about it as far as legends go.

Kobe has lost in the finals twice. Jordan lost a total of NONE times in the finals. He simply wouldn't allow his teams to lose...

It doesn't matter what happens in this year's finals or in any other after this... Jordan will always be known as the better player.


You deservea big side of REP!! I'm of the same faith brother. I would agree with everything you just said, and have been in the same argument many many many times.

CoMoChief
06-12-2009, 02:29 PM
Kobe when all is said and done will probably have played in more Finals than MJ, may even win more than 6 rings when he finally retires, who knows.

No one will ever match MJ. But as a player Kobe comes awfully close.

Kobe will be a top 5 all time NBA great when its over.

As far as Lebron, Kobe is 10x the better basketball player, Lebron is just so physically big for his position and is a freak of nature it makes a bad mis match for most and makes it hard to guard him when he's penetrating into the lane. If you foul Lebron you have to do it harder than most because he's so strong he will just blow past it and still make the And1.

SNR
06-12-2009, 02:29 PM
What were you guys saying when Jordan was in his early career? "No one will ever be better than Bill Russel. Nobody can win that many rings. It just won't happen."

To me this just screams old fartism. The phrase, "nobody will be better than ______" equals, "the great legends who played when I was growing up were so good that it will never be repeated or topped again and I don't care WHO comes forth. Gonna stick my fingers in my ears. Lalalalalala!"

I hate to say it, but Jordan is not going to be the best player ever. There are going to be players who will be just as good as him in all facets of the game. They are going to challenge his greatness, and some may top it. And while they are in their careers, you guys are going to say, "NOPE! NOBODY'S BETTER THAN JORDAN!!"

I'm not taking away anything Michael Jordan did. Really, I'm not. All I'm saying is that's no reason to get down on the amazing players of today like Lebron, who has already done SPECTACULAR things in this league. Did you even watch him in the Magic series? That guy very nearly took down the entire Orlando Magic BY HIMSELF.

Let's have this conversation again in 10 years or so.

CoMoChief
06-12-2009, 02:39 PM
What were you guys saying when Jordan was in his early career? "No one will ever be better than Bill Russel. Nobody can win that many rings. It just won't happen."

To me this just screams old fartism. The phrase, "nobody will be better than ______" equals, "the great legends who played when I was growing up were so good that it will never be repeated or topped again and I don't care WHO comes forth. Gonna stick my fingers in my ears. Lalalalalala!"

I hate to say it, but Jordan is not going to be the best player ever. There are going to be players who will be just as good as him in all facets of the game. They are going to challenge his greatness, and some may top it. And while they are in their careers, you guys are going to say, "NOPE! NOBODY'S BETTER THAN JORDAN!!"

I'm not taking away anything Michael Jordan did. Really, I'm not. All I'm saying is that's no reason to get down on the amazing players of today like Lebron, who has already done SPECTACULAR things in this league. Did you even watch him in the Magic series? That guy very nearly took down the entire Orlando Magic BY HIMSELF.

Let's have this conversation again in 10 years or so.

Nobody is better than Jordan.

Gonzo
06-12-2009, 02:41 PM
Nobody is better than Jordan.

Nobody will ever be either... (IMO)

Baby Lee
06-12-2009, 02:42 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/b0AGiq9j_Ak&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/b0AGiq9j_Ak&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Saw this again recently. Has there been a more effective, ebullient, ad campaign?

KCChiefsMan
06-12-2009, 02:45 PM
Kobe is better than lebron. He's much closer to Jordan than lebron is/will ever be.
Posted via Mobile Device

I disagree.

Pestilence
06-12-2009, 02:45 PM
MJ is the best ever.

Point.

Blank.

Period.

Done.

Baby Lee
06-12-2009, 02:47 PM
What were you guys saying when Jordan was in his early career? "No one will ever be better than Bill Russel. Nobody can win that many rings. It just won't happen."

To me this just screams old fartism. The phrase, "nobody will be better than ______" equals, "the great legends who played when I was growing up were so good that it will never be repeated or topped again and I don't care WHO comes forth. Gonna stick my fingers in my ears. Lalalalalala!"

I hate to say it, but Jordan is not going to be the best player ever. There are going to be players who will be just as good as him in all facets of the game. They are going to challenge his greatness, and some may top it. And while they are in their careers, you guys are going to say, "NOPE! NOBODY'S BETTER THAN JORDAN!!"

I'm not taking away anything Michael Jordan did. Really, I'm not. All I'm saying is that's no reason to get down on the amazing players of today like Lebron, who has already done SPECTACULAR things in this league. Did you even watch him in the Magic series? That guy very nearly took down the entire Orlando Magic BY HIMSELF.

Let's have this conversation again in 10 years or so.

Michael [Jordan] and Michael [Tyson] each had similar impact OUT OF THE BOX. I remember Jordan's early years. You remember 'water cooler talk' about what happened on Twin Peaks, or Friends, or Seinfeld. Michael's early years is the first time I can recall kids coming in the next morning saying 'did you see Michael last night, DID YOU SEE MICHAEL LAST NIGHT!!!! Same thing with Tyson, effed that GUY UP!!! There was watching sports and rooting for your team, a certain level of delirium, and there was Mike and Mike, where EVERYONE was talking with wide eyes and shocked expressions.

The first 3-4 seasons, Jordan went off night after night with NO ONE around him. The rest of the league was his bitch, . . . nightly. But his lack of a supporting cast cost him in the playoffs. It was like he'd score 60, the rest of his team would score 20 and the opposition would score 85.

Tyson didn't have the same trajectory Jordan did, but if he'd finished as strong as Jordan did, he'd be the GOAT in boxing as well.

alpha_omega
06-12-2009, 02:48 PM
I agree, 100%.

But, it sure looks like Kobe and Company are going to win another one. I can't see the Magic winning 3 in a row.

El Jefe
06-12-2009, 02:59 PM
What were you guys saying when Jordan was in his early career? "No one will ever be better than Bill Russel. Nobody can win that many rings. It just won't happen."

To me this just screams old fartism. The phrase, "nobody will be better than ______" equals, "the great legends who played when I was growing up were so good that it will never be repeated or topped again and I don't care WHO comes forth. Gonna stick my fingers in my ears. Lalalalalala!"

I hate to say it, but Jordan is not going to be the best player ever. There are going to be players who will be just as good as him in all facets of the game. They are going to challenge his greatness, and some may top it. And while they are in their careers, you guys are going to say, "NOPE! NOBODY'S BETTER THAN JORDAN!!"

I'm not taking away anything Michael Jordan did. Really, I'm not. All I'm saying is that's no reason to get down on the amazing players of today like Lebron, who has already done SPECTACULAR things in this league. Did you even watch him in the Magic series? That guy very nearly took down the entire Orlando Magic BY HIMSELF.

Let's have this conversation again in 10 years or so.


Michael Jordan is the best player ever, he was the best then, now, and there wont be any that will be better. This isn't like the NFL where you ask who the best running back was, some may say Emmitt, or Jim Brown, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton etc etc etc. You could make a case for any of those guys, but you cant honestly say anybody is as good as Jordan, no way no how. He played in the best ERA of basketball players the NBA will ever have, you are talking about a time filled with true Legends. I would equate that ERA of the NBA to the Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Sonny Liston ERA in boxing, it simply cant be topped. Those are times when you saw the best of the best, and everybody loved watching it.

DJ's left nut
06-12-2009, 03:02 PM
It's been done...

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=160201&highlight=jordan

Spring of 2007.

Had Bryant won the championship last season against the Celtics, I think he'd be in the discussion (he'd be closing in on his 5th ring now). However, when the Lakers absolutely blew game 4 last season and Kobe lead the charge on that choke job, I recognized that he'd never be MJ's equal. Jordan is mentally stronger than Kobe and that's the difference.

There's no way that Jordan lets his team lose game 4 last year. But that said, the Celtics team that won that championship is better than any team the Jordan Bulls ever bested.

I stand by the arguments I make in that thread, but Kobe showed last season that he doesn't have the killer instinct Jordan had and that's what separates the two (and will separate MJ and LeBron as well, IMO).

Buck
06-12-2009, 03:12 PM
I love how the Kobe Haters always bring this up.

Who fucking cares?

Has Kobe ever said hes the best ever? Has he ever said hes shooting for MJ? No, he hasn't.

Everybody knows MJ is the best ever, I don't get why you even brought this up.

The fact that people even compare him to MJ is an honor for him in itself.

Who else out there is getting compared to MJ? Nobody, because Kobe is the only person who could even possibly reach his stature.

I'm a huge Lakers/Kobe fan, and even I know that MJ is the best off all time...

Pestilence
06-12-2009, 03:13 PM
I love how the Kobe Haters always bring this up.

Who fucking cares?

Has Kobe ever said hes the best ever? Has he ever said hes shooting for MJ? No, he hasn't.

Everybody knows MJ is the best ever, I don't get why you even brought this up.

The fact that people even compare him to MJ is an honor for him in itself.

Who else out there is getting compared to MJ? Nobody, because Kobe is the only person who could even possibly reach his stature.

I'm a huge Lakers/Kobe fan, and even I know that MJ is the best off all time...

Jesus.....Chargers AND Lakers? :shake:

KCChiefsMan
06-12-2009, 03:14 PM
I love how the Kobe Haters always bring this up.

Who ****ing cares?

Has Kobe ever said hes the best ever? Has he ever said hes shooting for MJ? No, he hasn't.

Everybody knows MJ is the best ever, I don't get why you even brought this up.

The fact that people even compare him to MJ is an honor for him in itself.

Who else out there is getting compared to MJ? Nobody, because Kobe is the only person who could even possibly reach his stature.

I'm a huge Lakers/Kobe fan, and even I know that MJ is the best off all time...


well, Lebron has been getting those comparison's

DJ's left nut
06-12-2009, 03:15 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070326&sportCat=nba

Article from that thread from Jemelle Hill that lays out a decent argument for Kobe.

But again, it happened prior to his yacker against the Celtics. That closed the argument for me.

Fruit Ninja
06-12-2009, 03:18 PM
MJ is the best. i wont argue that, but Kobe could hold his own and no doubt would even do good against a prime MJ in their careers. They also played when zone defenses were illegal. that said MJ is still better and will always be, being right behind MJ is still hard as fuck to do and i think any basket ball player will be lying to you if they didnt care.

Eventually, there will be someone better, but as of right now. Its MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russel and Kobe will be in that discussion when his career is done. He will be a top 5 player of this game and who would be mad about that?

Buck
06-12-2009, 03:18 PM
Jesus.....Chargers AND Lakers? :shake:

I know, right....

well, Lebron has been getting those comparison's

He may be, but its undeserved. Kobe is about to win his 4th title, and LeBron has 0 rings...he shouldn't be in the conversation yet.

Baby Lee
06-12-2009, 03:19 PM
well, Lebron has been getting those comparison's

Loved how his walk-off shot got all that pub as being 'MJ-esque' and a week later he's out of the playoffs, meanwhile, the MJ moment they were comparing it to ended a season then and there with a championship trophy.

Garcia Bronco
06-12-2009, 03:21 PM
Gotta agree with the OP

Fruit Ninja
06-12-2009, 03:22 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070326&sportCat=nba

Article from that thread from Jemelle Hill that lays out a decent argument for Kobe.

But again, it happened prior to his yacker against the Celtics. That closed the argument for me.

Never seen that article. She breaks it down for sure. IT was a totally different ball game in the 90's just like it was in the 80's and 70's and so forth.

KCChiefsMan
06-12-2009, 03:23 PM
Loved how his walk-off shot got all that pub as being 'MJ-esque' and a week later he's out of the playoffs, meanwhile, the MJ moment they were comparing it to ended a season then and there with a championship trophy.

The cavaliers wouldn't win 20 games without lebron though

BigVE
06-12-2009, 03:24 PM
Kobe is still young...if he gets 2-3 more rings (who knows) then what? Kobe may or may not be better than MJ but he is as close or closer than anyone has been or will be for a long time. Lebron's legacy will be forever tarnished to an extent if he doesn't win the rings. I would be curious to see what kind of numbers MJ put up before he was 30yrs. old and compare them Kobe's.

Buck
06-12-2009, 03:25 PM
I don't think you can say with complete confidence though that if MJ went one on one vs Kobe that he'd win.

Although this definitely has nothing to do with who is the greatest player of all time.

Buck
06-12-2009, 03:26 PM
Kobe is still young...if he gets 2-3 more rings (who knows) then what? Kobe may or may not be better than MJ but he is as close or closer than anyone has been or will be for a long time. Lebron's legacy will be forever tarnished to an extent if he doesn't win the rings. I would be curious to see what kind of numbers MJ put up before he was 30yrs. old and compare them Kobe's.

Yeah but MJ went to College, and Kobe didn't.

Baby Lee
06-12-2009, 03:27 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...6&sportCat=nba

David Robinson didn't affect the league like Tim Duncan did? WTF? I mean WTF?

Maybe in terms of championships in the NBA's down years, but otherwise, Duncan was WinME to Robinson's Win98.

Robinson had an entire team structured around his skills, and it was the Rocket's good fortune Duncan came along to prolong the paradigm.

Micjones
06-12-2009, 03:27 PM
All you need to know.
1. Michael Jordan is the best the NBA has ever known.
2. Kobe Bryant is better than Lebron James currently.
3. Lebron has the ability to surpass them all, but has exactly ZERO rings at the moment.

Micjones
06-12-2009, 03:29 PM
Kobe is still young...if he gets 2-3 more rings (who knows) then what? Kobe may or may not be better than MJ but he is as close or closer than anyone has been or will be for a long time. Lebron's legacy will be forever tarnished to an extent if he doesn't win the rings. I would be curious to see what kind of numbers MJ put up before he was 30yrs. old and compare them Kobe's.

Kobe doesn't have the same effect on his team as MJ had.
This Lakers team is built solidly and he has a great supporting cast.

MJ played with greats like Will Perdue, Bill Cartwright, Craig Hodges, Steve Kerr, and BJ Armstrong.

Garcia Bronco
06-12-2009, 03:31 PM
Never seen that article. She breaks it down for sure. IT was a totally different ball game in the 90's just like it was in the 80's and 70's and so forth.

No it isn't. It's the same as it's always been. Put the ball in the hoop. MJ is better than Kobe, but the all time greatest is Bill Russell. 9 NBA championships and one as a player and head coach. Most young folks don't know about the latter.

BWillie
06-12-2009, 03:33 PM
Kobe is better than lebron. He's much closer to Jordan than lebron is/will ever be.
Posted via Mobile Device

Lebron has like 15 years left in his career. Too early to tell

BWillie
06-12-2009, 03:34 PM
All you need to know.
1. Michael Jordan is the best the NBA has ever known.
2. Kobe Bryant is better than Lebron James currently.
3. Lebron has the ability to surpass them all, but has exactly ZERO rings at the moment.

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Michael Jordan
3. Bill Russell
4. Who cares

DJ's left nut
06-12-2009, 03:37 PM
The cavaliers wouldn't win 20 games without lebron though

I disagree.

With Ilgauskas, Williams, West and Varajao, they have some quality players on that team.

Watch a few Cavs games. LeBron absolutely dominates the ball. It's in his hands at all times, every possession flows through him at some point. That's why he gets as many assists as he does - he's nowhere near the passer kobe is, but he does all those little entry passes into the post for cheap points.

They'd have to play a far different style of ball, but if they turned into more of an up-tempo team and utilized Ilgauskas like the Suns used Shaq, I think they could've won 35-40 games.

Look at how stunningly bad the '05-'06 Lakers team was and tell me that Bryant doesn't make his team better. That team was probably a 15 win ballclub (if that) without Kobe and he somehow milked a 45 win season out of it.

BigVE
06-12-2009, 03:38 PM
Kobe doesn't have the same effect on his team as MJ had.
This Lakers team is built solidly and he has a great supporting cast.

MJ played with greats like Will Perdue, Bill Cartwright, Craig Hodges, Steve Kerr, and BJ Armstrong.


Eh, maybe...maybe. Tony Kucoc and Scotty Pippen were TOP notch "role-players" for a long time, I think they were under rated. Kerr and John Paxson were GREAT shooters who hit a very high percentage and like someone mentioned earlier MJ played at a time when they didnt allow zone defense so the lane wasn't as congested as it is for Kobe. I can't argue that MJ is not the best ever but fair is fair when comparing him to Kobe.

JASONSAUTO
06-12-2009, 03:38 PM
Michael [Jordan] and Michael [Tyson] each had similar impact OUT OF THE BOX. I remember Jordan's early years. You remember 'water cooler talk' about what happened on Twin Peaks, or Friends, or Seinfeld. Michael's early years is the first time I can recall kids coming in the next morning saying 'did you see Michael last night, DID YOU SEE MICHAEL LAST NIGHT!!!! Same thing with Tyson, effed that GUY UP!!! There was watching sports and rooting for your team, a certain level of delirium, and there was Mike and Mike, where EVERYONE was talking with wide eyes and shocked expressions.

The first 3-4 seasons, Jordan went off night after night with NO ONE around him. The rest of the league was his bitch, . . . nightly. But his lack of a supporting cast cost him in the playoffs. It was like he'd score 60, the rest of his team would score 20 and the opposition would score 85.
Tyson didn't have the same trajectory Jordan did, but if he'd finished as strong as Jordan did, he'd be the GOAT in boxing as well.


sounds a little like lebron in this years playoffs

The Bad Guy
06-12-2009, 03:38 PM
Obviously The Spatula is a Magic fan.

I don't think that Kobe will ever be MJ either. But keep beating that dead horse like you are re-inventing the wheel.

It all comes across as one big fucking whine fest after the Lakers are up 3-1.

First it was, "Kobe will never win without Shaq!!!!!!!!"

Now the Jordan comparisons will keep coming up to discredit Kobe.

Has there ever been a better athlete universally hated by everyone like Kobe Bryant?

DJ's left nut
06-12-2009, 03:39 PM
Kobe doesn't have the same effect on his team as MJ had.
This Lakers team is built solidly and he has a great supporting cast.

MJ played with greats like Will Perdue, Bill Cartwright, Craig Hodges, Steve Kerr, and BJ Armstrong.

Absolute myth.

The 1993-1994 Bulls went 55 and 27 WITHOUT a single minute of play from Michael. They would've won the championship but/for a horrid call in the eastern finals that cost them the series.

The Bulls were a championship caliber team without Jordan and yet nobody seems to be willing to recognize that.

JASONSAUTO
06-12-2009, 03:40 PM
I know, right....



He may be, but its undeserved. Kobe is about to win his 4th title, and LeBron has 0 rings...he shouldn't be in the conversation yet.

kkobe has had superstars around him every time he has sniffed the finals, lebron not so much. thats the difference

The Bad Guy
06-12-2009, 03:40 PM
I disagree.

With Ilgauskas, Williams, West and Varajao, they have some quality players on that team.



Varajao and West are quality players? Mo Williams couldn't win shit as a Buck. Illgaukas looks like he's walking in cement all of the time.

Good lord.

dirk digler
06-12-2009, 03:41 PM
All you need to know.
1. Michael Jordan is the best the NBA has ever known.
2. Kobe Bryant is better than Lebron James currently.
3. Lebron has the ability to surpass them all, but has exactly ZERO rings at the moment.

Pretty much

DJ's left nut
06-12-2009, 03:41 PM
kkobe has had superstars around him every time he has sniffed the finals, lebron not so much. thats the difference

Yet when Kobe doesn't win y'all say "Kobe doesn't make his teammates better" and when LeBron doesn't win it's always "LeBron needs more help."

"The difference" is that LeBron hasn't won a damn thing, wake me when he does.

Micjones
06-12-2009, 03:41 PM
No it isn't. It's the same as it's always been. Put the ball in the hoop. MJ is better than Kobe, but the all time greatest is Bill Russell. 9 NBA championships and one as a player and head coach. Most young folks don't know about the latter.

How many Hall of Famers did Russell play with?
End of discussion.

JASONSAUTO
06-12-2009, 03:43 PM
Yet when Kobe doesn't win y'all say "Kobe doesn't make his teammates better" and when LeBron doesn't win it's always "LeBron needs more help."

"The difference" is that LeBron hasn't won a damn thing, wake me when he does.

dont lump me in with that crowd. put lebron on that team in place of kobe and they challenge the bull win record IMO

dirk digler
06-12-2009, 03:44 PM
kkobe has had superstars around him every time he has sniffed the finals, lebron not so much. thats the difference

well duh you have to have other good players on your team to win championships or you end up like the Cavs.

MJ went through the same thing early on in his career where the team the Bulls had wasn't very good and he carried them. Once they filled in the pieces they started winning.

Buck
06-12-2009, 03:45 PM
Lebron has like 15 years left in his career. Too early to tell

Kobe has at least another 7 or 8 years left barring injury.

The Bad Guy
06-12-2009, 03:46 PM
I also think people completely underrate the performance of Dennis Rodman too. That MF was one of the best defensive players I've ever seen. He was a great, and I mean great weak side rebounder. He got into players heads constantly and did all the dirty work for MJ.

I'll go out on a big limb here and say Lebron won't win a title in the next 5 years. Even if he goes to the Knicks, who is surrounding him there? Danielo?

The Bad Guy
06-12-2009, 03:46 PM
Kobe has at least another 7 or 8 years left barring injury.

I think he has more like 5.

The dude has been playing for 13 years.

DJ's left nut
06-12-2009, 03:46 PM
Varajao and West are quality players? Mo Williams couldn't win shit as a Buck. Illgaukas looks like he's walking in cement all of the time.

Good lord.

Have you taken a quick glance around the NBA recently?

A .500 record just makes you average. A starting 5 of Ilgauskas, Varejao, Szerbiak, West, Williams is probably a pretty much average team, maybe slightly below average. Is that team appreciably worse than the 34 win Nets or Bucks? The 36 win Pacers?

No, it isn't. It's not a good team, but it's all relative.

Garcia Bronco
06-12-2009, 03:47 PM
How many Hall of Famers did Russell play with?
End of discussion.

Yeah...because they played with him.

Buzzsaw
06-12-2009, 03:47 PM
Kobe when all is said and done will probably have played in more Finals than MJ, may even win more than 6 rings when he finally retires, who knows.

No one will ever match MJ. But as a player Kobe comes awfully close.

Kobe will be a top 5 all time NBA great when its over.

As far as Lebron, Kobe is 10x the better basketball player, Lebron is just so physically big for his position and is a freak of nature it makes a bad mis match for most and makes it hard to guard him when he's penetrating into the lane. If you foul Lebron you have to do it harder than most because he's so strong he will just blow past it and still make the And1.

Great post, I agree on all counts.

One thing I would say the OP failed to mention is his argument (which I still agree with anyways) was Jordan did play with one of the best players ever in Scottie Pippen.

Buck
06-12-2009, 03:48 PM
I think he has more like 5.

The dude has been playing for 13 years.

So what? He didn't play college ball.

dirk digler
06-12-2009, 03:48 PM
I also think people completely underrate the performance of Dennis Rodman too. That MF was one of the best defensive players I've ever seen. He was a great, and I mean great weak side rebounder. He got into players heads constantly and did all the dirty work for MJ.

I'll go out on a big limb here and say Lebron won't win a title in the next 5 years. Even if he goes to the Knicks, who is surrounding him there? Danielo?

Rodman was awesome. That was a great fucking team.

The Cavs are going to have to add some players or Lebron is gone after next season

The Bad Guy
06-12-2009, 03:49 PM
So what? He didn't play college ball.

You're talking about roughly 45 more games a year in the NBA (counting playoffs), against better competition.

That's a massive swing.

Micjones
06-12-2009, 03:49 PM
Absolute myth.

The 1993-1994 Bulls went 55 and 27 WITHOUT a single minute of play from Michael. They would've won the championship but/for a horrid call in the eastern finals that cost them the series.

Are you kidding? That team had exactly 1 superstar, Scottie Pippen.
BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant were solid, but they weren't exactly world-beaters.

Toni Kukoc averaged under 12 points a game that season.

And that, TEAM, lost in the Conference Semi's.

BigVE
06-12-2009, 03:49 PM
I think he has more like 5.

The dude has been playing for 13 years.


His first couple of years he didnt play THAT much so it would be about equal to a couple of years in college I would guess. He is only 30 and is in terrific shape. He won't be in his prime for more than 5 years though.

Baby Lee
06-12-2009, 03:50 PM
sounds a little like lebron in this years playoffs

Somewhat, haven't done the math but they might've been about the same age factoring in MJ's college stint. But he was carrying them within like weeks of coming to the team.

And I mostly posted it to counter the 'you guys were saying the same thing about MJ when he started out.'

No, even as kids we knew we were watching a new era begin, the MJ era.

EDIT TO ADD: Those who know my backstory know we didn't have a TV in our house until I got to HS [rots yer brain], so this memory is for me particularly strong as we [as in my JHS friends] would go to the trouble of meeting up at a common house to watch, usually my buddy Ralph.

suds79
06-12-2009, 03:50 PM
Why do people still try to compare Kobe to MJ.

I seriously think some of the Kobe hate out there is from MJ supporters.

It's obvious. MJ was and is the best until proven otherwise. For such a hard status to achieve, I think you'll find most people will say MJ. It's not even much of a debate.

So.... MJ was the best. Plain & simple. Now can't we just enjoy watching one of the all time greats in Kobe and just accept that for what it is?

The Bad Guy
06-12-2009, 03:51 PM
Have you taken a quick glance around the NBA recently?

A .500 record just makes you average. A starting 5 of Ilgauskas, Varejao, Szerbiak, West, Williams is probably a pretty much average team, maybe slightly below average. Is that team appreciably worse than the 34 win Nets or Bucks? The 36 win Pacers?

No, it isn't. It's not a good team, but it's all relative.

That starting 5 you mentioned is worse than the Clippers are this year. They might luck themselves into 15 wins, but that is all they are going to get.

Wally and West can hang out on the arch and shoot. Who is the penetrator to create open shots in that offense? Iggy and Varajeo also have zero post games.

We can agree to disagree. That team you mention is the worst in the NBA hands down.

Micjones
06-12-2009, 03:52 PM
Yeah...because they played with him.

Yeah, he made 5 other players Hall of Famers all by his lonesome.
ROFL

DJ's left nut
06-12-2009, 03:53 PM
Are you kidding? That team had exactly 1 superstar, Scottie Pippen.
BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant were solid, but they weren't exactly world-beaters.

Toni Kukoc averaged under 12 points a game that season.

And that, TEAM, lost in the Conference Semi's.

So you're just ignoring the fact that they went 55-27 without Michael? Do you think a single team Kobe's ever played for, including the Shaq Lakers, would've won 55 games without him?

So either those players are a hell of a lot better than you gave them credit for or Michael played in an extremely weak era. In either event, it absolutely damages this myth that Jordan's Bulls were this pack of weak sisters that needed him to win ballgames. Those guys were good.

Buck
06-12-2009, 03:53 PM
You're talking about roughly 45 more games a year in the NBA (counting playoffs), against better competition.

That's a massive swing.

Good point I didnt think about that, but I still think He can play fine until 37 or 38.

DJ's left nut
06-12-2009, 03:56 PM
That starting 5 you mentioned is worse than the Clippers are this year. They might luck themselves into 15 wins, but that is all they are going to get.

Wally and West can hang out on the arch and shoot. Who is the penetrator to create open shots in that offense? Iggy and Varajeo also have zero post games.

We can agree to disagree. That team you mention is the worst in the NBA hands down.

Fair 'nuff, I evidently have a higher opinion of West/Williams/Iggy than you do.

I think Williams is a legitimately good player, he was putting up 17/gm in Milwaukee. He's absolutely capable of breaking down a defense. And Iggy has a post game (varajeo doesn't). Iggy's actually a fairly skilled offensive player, IMO. He's a 14 ppg scorer for his career. He's not a pure post guy, but he's not Arvydis Sabonis either. He's able to use his length underneath to create mis-matches.

Baby Lee
06-12-2009, 04:01 PM
In either event, it absolutely damages this myth that Jordan's Bulls were this pack of weak sisters that needed him to win ballgames. Those guys were good.
Who's touting that myth?
That's the story of his early years.
Then Phil Jackson assembled the complimentary players for him, set the culture and the dynasty began.

Micjones
06-12-2009, 04:02 PM
So you're just ignoring the fact that they went 55-27 without Michael?

They piled up wins in a weak Eastern Conference.
That team gave up something like 94 points per game.
They weren't as good as that record indicated.
And again... They flamed out in the Eastern Semi's.

Why are you pretending they did something meaningful after the season ended?

DJ's left nut
06-12-2009, 04:08 PM
They piled up wins in a weak Eastern Conference.
That team gave up something like 94 points per game.
They weren't as good as that record indicated.
And again... They flamed out in the Eastern Semi's.

Why are you pretending they did something meaningful after the season ended?

So did the East get stronger when Jordan came back?

Like I said, either those players were very good players or the East sucked. You seem to be suggesting the latter, which I'm fine with. In either event, it's just another thing that people overlook when they talk about how untouchable Jordan was.

And I'm ignoring the eastern semis because the game 5 foul call against Pippen on Hubert Davis was one of the worst calls in NBA playoff history and it cost them the series. They were a better team than the Knicks that season. Maybe they wouldn't have beaten the Rockets, but they'd have gotten there.

DJ's left nut
06-12-2009, 04:11 PM
Who's touting that myth?
That's the story of his early years.
Then Phil Jackson assembled the complimentary players for him, set the culture and the dynasty began.

Which is the same thing that happened with Kobe but it seems few want to acknowledge it.

Michael never won a championship with a team that had less talent on it than a team that Kobe has won a championship with, IMO (lets face it, outside of Shaq, those teams were thiiiiiiiin). Granted, that point is arguable, but what is not arguable is that MJ had some damn talented teams around him.

Garcia Bronco
06-12-2009, 04:14 PM
Yeah, he made 5 other players Hall of Famers all by his lonesome.
ROFL

Exactly. You don't understand. But just in hardware alone 9 > 6.

Micjones
06-12-2009, 04:23 PM
So did the East get stronger when Jordan came back?

Couple things to keep in mind...
1. Jordan didn't play a full season when he returned.
2. The Bulls lost Horace Grant to Orlando.

So the Bulls came back a bit, the Magic became a stronger team, and the other team in the Conference Finals had been there the year prior (Indiana).

The West was the class of the NBA at that time.

Like I said, either those players were very good players or the East sucked. You seem to be suggesting the latter, which I'm fine with. In either event, it's just another thing that people overlook when they talk about how untouchable Jordan was.

That's an oversimplification too because Jordan had to face the best team in the West to get those rings. And most of them were VERY solid teams with Hall of Fame players of their own.

Micjones
06-12-2009, 04:29 PM
Exactly. You don't understand. But just in hardware alone 9 > 6.

Teams win championships.

You're talking about the same Bill Russell that averaged more than 17 points per game in a single season only TWICE his entire career.

The same Bill Russell that joined a Celtics team in 1956 that ALREADY had four Hall of Fame players on it.
You don't know what you're talking about.

RNR
06-12-2009, 04:44 PM
Teams win championships.

You're talking about the same Bill Russell that averaged more than 17 points per game in a single season only TWICE his entire career.

The same Bill Russell that joined a Celtics team in 1956 that ALREADY had four Hall of Fame players on it.
You don't know what you're talking about.

I have to side with Mic on this one. Not a slam on Russell, but dang talk about walking in to the ideal situation

DJ's left nut
06-12-2009, 04:50 PM
Couple things to keep in mind...
1. Jordan didn't play a full season when he returned.
2. The Bulls lost Horace Grant to Orlando.

So the Bulls came back a bit, the Magic became a stronger team, and the other team in the Conference Finals had been there the year prior (Indiana).

The West was the class of the NBA at that time.



That's an oversimplification too because Jordan had to face the best team in the West to get those rings. And most of them were VERY solid teams with Hall of Fame players of their own.

So does he lose points for the 3 titles before he left then? Because even if I concede that the East improved upon his return, it was still bad when he was gone and bad when he left, though that 95/96 Magic team was probably the best ballclub MJ faced throughout his championship years and they absolutely dismantled them. That's a bit of an outlier though because that is a team that I do believe would've won a title with/without Michael, it's arguably the best team of all time (and inarguably one of the top 3).

As to your 2nd point, that's correct. However, wouldn't you concede that it's a lot easier to get through 1 great team out of the West than it would have been to plow through the West and then get the best from the East?

I think those Jazz teams had a far tougher go of it than the Bulls did throughout the playoffs and that's part of what cost them against the Bulls.

RNR
06-12-2009, 05:06 PM
I only follow the NBA mildly as it reminds of pro wrestling (you know where the guy in stripes is always distracted when the rules are being broken) I would also like to say I can not stand Kobe as he strikes me as person of little honor. That said he is stupid good.

-King-
06-12-2009, 05:11 PM
They piled up wins in a weak Eastern Conference.
That team gave up something like 94 points per game.
They weren't as good as that record indicated.
And again... They flamed out in the Eastern Semi's.

Why are you pretending they did something meaningful after the season ended?

It's not like they gave up way less points with MJ. They gave up 92 ppg twice during the MJ years and 101 ppg once. So they werent like crazy great defensively with MJ. Also it's not like the East got all of a suddenly better when MJ came back.

Micjones
06-12-2009, 05:29 PM
As to your 2nd point, that's correct. However, wouldn't you concede that it's a lot easier to get through 1 great team out of the West than it would have been to plow through the West and then get the best from the East?

I suppose it's all in how you look at it.
Again, during those two seasons in question the West was the class of the NBA. My New York Knicks couldn't get through that tough tough Houston Rockets team. Neither could the Magic (the Rockets dispatched Orlando in 4).

And it's not as though that Bulls team (Jordan's first full season back) only ran through weak Eastern Conference opponents. They won 90% of their games against Western Conference teams too.

SPATCH
06-12-2009, 05:31 PM
Obviously The Spatula is a Magic fan.

I don't think that Kobe will ever be MJ either. But keep beating that dead horse like you are re-inventing the wheel.

It all comes across as one big ****ing whine fest after the Lakers are up 3-1.

First it was, "Kobe will never win without Shaq!!!!!!!!"

Now the Jordan comparisons will keep coming up to discredit Kobe.

Has there ever been a better athlete universally hated by everyone like Kobe Bryant?

False. I'm a Bulls fan... always will be

in fact, i've never given a rat's ass about orlando

Absolute myth.

The 1993-1994 Bulls went 55 and 27 WITHOUT a single minute of play from Michael. They would've won the championship but/for a horrid call in the eastern finals that cost them the series.

The Bulls were a championship caliber team without Jordan and yet nobody seems to be willing to recognize that.

they wouldn't have beaten olajuwon without MJ... not a chance...

pippen was a viable replacement as the focal point for the triangle offense... and they were successful for a while... but they were clearly on a downward slide. By the 94-95 season the bulls were really struggling before MJ came back as #45.

So you're just ignoring the fact that they went 55-27 without Michael? Do you think a single team Kobe's ever played for, including the Shaq Lakers, would've won 55 games without him?

So either those players are a hell of a lot better than you gave them credit for or Michael played in an extremely weak era. In either event, it absolutely damages this myth that Jordan's Bulls were this pack of weak sisters that needed him to win ballgames. Those guys were good.

PG - Fisher
SG - Fox
SF - George
PF - Horry
C - Shaq

yep... that team would struggle to win 15 games

Buck
06-12-2009, 05:34 PM
PG - Fisher
SG - Fox
SF - George
PF - Horry
C - Shaq

yep... that team would struggle to win 15 games

No but thats not an NBA Championship squad.

That squad is eerily similar to the Magic's squad of this year.

Micjones
06-12-2009, 05:34 PM
It's not like they gave up way less points with MJ. They gave up 92 ppg twice during the MJ years and 101 ppg once.

They gave up fewer than 90 during the last Championship run.
Just sayin...

Also it's not like the East got all of a suddenly better when MJ came back.

The Bulls dominated Western teams too.

And the Eastern Conference did improve after he returned.
IIRC, the Magic won 60 games the first year of the second three-peat.
And I believe Miami won 60 games the year after (96-97). Alongside four OTHER Eastern Conference teams each that won 50+ games (Hawks, Hornets, Pistons, and Knicks).

Basileus777
06-12-2009, 05:36 PM
Michael Jordan was the Hedo Turkoglu of the 90s.

SPATCH
06-12-2009, 05:39 PM
Michael Jordan was the Hedo Turkoglu of the 90s.

LMAO

Basileus777
06-12-2009, 05:39 PM
No but thats not an NBA Championship squad.

That squad is eerily similar to the Magic's squad of this year.

No it's not. THe Magic's wings are much much better than what that team has. Nelso, Hedo, and Lewis are all better than anyone other that Shaq on that team.

That Lakers team wouldn't even make the playoffs.

SPATCH
06-12-2009, 05:42 PM
No but thats not an NBA Championship squad.

That squad is eerily similar to the Magic's squad of this year.

damn.... you're right

SPATCH
06-12-2009, 05:44 PM
No it's not. THe Magic's wings are much much better than what that team has. Nelso, Hedo, and Lewis are all better than anyone other that Shaq on that team.

That Lakers team wouldn't even make the playoffs.

you are so very wrong...

SPATCH
06-12-2009, 05:50 PM
Here's another thing....

Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, and Shaquille O'Neal all on one team... and you get a mud hole stomped in your ass by Billups, Hamilton, and the Wallace's...

no way in **** MJ allows a team with less talent to beat him in a seven game series... and in FIVE games? no goddamn way

chuxtrux
06-12-2009, 05:55 PM
Whatever. MJ is probably off somewhere shooting underwear commercials and watching tapes of Finals games from the '90s. Kobe is the man on top of the basketball world right now.

Basileus777
06-12-2009, 05:57 PM
you are so very wrong...

Derrick Fisher is the second option on that team and he was an 11 ppg player. Their offense is going to be shit outside of Shaq, and they won't be a great defensive team either (they weren't with Kobe.) There's no way that team wins the 45+ games necessary to get in the playoffs in the West. You can't take a top 7 NBA off a team that wasn't particularly deep and not expect a significant drop off.

They won 56 (or 58 depending on what year) games with Kobe for Christ's sake, if you think they win 55 without him, your and idiot.

Jim Jones
06-12-2009, 06:40 PM
Here's another thing....

Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, and Shaquille O'Neal all on one team... and you get a mud hole stomped in your ass by Billups, Hamilton, and the Wallace's...

no way in **** MJ allows a team with less talent to beat him in a seven game series... and in FIVE games? no goddamn way

Karl Malone and Gary Payton were complete non-factors in that series. They were over the hill and injured. Shaq had a terrible series too. The entire team just played crappy.

Don't give me this.."MJ would have NEVER...". People have this revisionist history of the guy, as if he never screwed up in a game, never lost a game, never played badly, etc. Most of the jockriding is from people who were kids when he was around and so naturally were fans, then had it pounded into their head by the media time after time after time. These people will never accept the fact that Jordan has been passed up, whether it's by Kobe or LeBron or someone else 15 years from now.

Tiger's Fan
06-12-2009, 07:04 PM
While he wasn't a member of some of the greatest TEAMS, Wilt was, and is the greatest player of all time, bar none. People need to do their homework on this subject.

SPATCH
06-12-2009, 08:04 PM
Karl Malone and Gary Payton were complete non-factors in that series. They were over the hill and injured. Shaq had a terrible series too. The entire team just played crappy.

Don't give me this.."MJ would have NEVER...". People have this revisionist history of the guy, as if he never screwed up in a game, never lost a game, never played badly, etc. Most of the jockriding is from people who were kids when he was around and so naturally were fans, then had it pounded into their head by the media time after time after time. These people will never accept the fact that Jordan has been passed up, whether it's by Kobe or LeBron or someone else 15 years from now.

revisionist history???

i was just spouting some facts at you bro...

SPATCH
06-12-2009, 08:26 PM
While he wasn't a member of some of the greatest TEAMS, Wilt was, and is the greatest player of all time, bar none. People need to do their homework on this subject.

sorry.. but centers are going to get snubbed in this conversation for the rest of time...

just the way it is...

Basileus777
06-12-2009, 08:31 PM
Centers aren't snubbed. Jordan is the only GOAT candidate that isn't a center. Most people's top 10 all-time will be composed of mostly centers.

Mecca
06-12-2009, 08:39 PM
Discussions like this are why the NBA has horrid officiating.

Fruit Ninja
06-12-2009, 09:18 PM
Here's another thing....

Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, and Shaquille O'Neal all on one team... and you get a mud hole stomped in your ass by Billups, Hamilton, and the Wallace's...

no way in **** MJ allows a team with less talent to beat him in a seven game series... and in FIVE games? no goddamn way

Payton didnt fit with that offense and Karl Malone had a bad knee. He shouldn't have even been playing i believe he didnt after one of them games when his knee gave out. Plus the Glove and Malone were already really old back then.

Looks good on paper, but them guys were no wear near the type of players they were in their prime. ITs like saying put Shaq right now on a team like say Dallas and thinking they will win. Kidd, Dirk, Shaq look nice on paper, but in reality, they are to old and its not going to happen. Dirk is getting older himself he's gotta be what 33 or so by now? NBA standards for most players thats just about done being a great player in this league.

milkman
06-12-2009, 10:05 PM
I haven't read this thread.

I haven't even read any more than the thread header.

All I want to know is, who the **** cares?

The Bad Guy
06-12-2009, 10:11 PM
revisionist history???

i was just spouting some facts at you bro...

Spouting facts?

Saying "MJ would never let this happen" is a load of shit.

Show me a time where MJ played with 3 other 20 point scorers and made it work before you keep with the broken record bullshit.

SNR
06-12-2009, 10:20 PM
Also, the title and OP says "forever and ever. Amen"

I know that's a play on religious text, but that's still what it says.

MJ IS the best of all time. RIGHT NOW. Is he going to be the best years from now? Probably fucking not.

If you can't see that you're a retard who can't let go of good things in the past. Yes, Jordan was amazing and as it stands has done more remarkable things in his career than Kobe or Lebron. Are things going to remain that way? Nobody fucking knows, and there's a decent-sized chance they won't.

Accept it. The game changes. The human body changes. A century from now we'll have titans playing this game that could crush Jordan with an arm tied behind their back, I'm guessing. That's just the way it works.

Psyko Tek
06-12-2009, 10:32 PM
I think there are better athletes in the NBA today, just not better basketball players.

this

except for steve nash

man's a so-so athlete but one hell of a ball player

BWillie
06-12-2009, 10:45 PM
While he wasn't a member of some of the greatest TEAMS, Wilt was, and is the greatest player of all time, bar none. People need to do their homework on this subject.

Yup. The guy averaged freaking 50.4 ppg one year. He routinely averaged around 24 rebounds per game. That is right, that is what I said. It wasn't like people back in 1970 were all doing it either, it was an amazing feat.

Mr. Arrowhead
06-12-2009, 10:58 PM
Yup and MJ did the right way, he wasnt a dirty player, he didnt have to throw elbows to make his point or sleep with underage women

Mr. Arrowhead
06-12-2009, 11:00 PM
. Dirk is getting older himself he's gotta be what 33 or so by now? NBA standards for most players thats just about done being a great player in this league.
actually Dirk turns 31 this month

Mr. Arrowhead
06-12-2009, 11:04 PM
and what makes people think Kobe is better than Lebron. I think Lebron team would be in the finals if he had Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol, and Andrew Bynum,

Guru
06-12-2009, 11:12 PM
<object width="425" height="344">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/b0AGiq9j_Ak&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="425" height="344"></object>

Saw this again recently. Has there been a more effective, ebullient, ad campaign?I remember when Gatorade came in a glass container.

SNR
06-12-2009, 11:16 PM
I'm still laughing at the OP. Writes about Michael Jordan and then puts in his avatar the guy who calls himself "the Turkish Michael Jordan".

I'm going to agree with The Bad Guy. He's clearly butt-hurt over the ass-pounding Kobe put on the Magic. So he's clinging to Michael Jordan.

That's soooo bold. LMAO Way to go, asswipe.

kobebehar
06-13-2009, 12:01 AM
and what makes people think Kobe is better than Lebron. I think Lebron team would be in the finals if he had Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol, and Andrew Bynum,

This.

Let's not forget Phil Jackson. Mike Brown's matchup coaching in the Orlando series was offensive to any fan of clever, creative basketball. Yeah, let's start Verejao AND Ilgauskas so we can put BEN WALLACE UP AGAINST DWIGHT HOWARD. I mean for ****'s sake Nancy Gortat looked like Wilt Chaimberlain in that series, because there is ZERO quality big men on that team.

I know that's not the argument, but just needed to settle that first.

Is kobe better than MJ? Of course not. MJ is one of the best players in NBA history.

Guys, branding is powerful. Branding was MOST powerful during MJ's day. More powerful than it had ever been or probably ever will be again due to fragmented media consumption.


This adds to his aura, but not his numbers. 30.1 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 asts, 2.3 steals, 2.7 turnovers, 49% shooting and 6 Championships. Amazing numbers. in 84-85 (MJ's rookie year) average team scoring was 110.8 points per game. and in 2004 (sorry, numbers on this are tricky to find) the team ppg was 93.4. That's a 17.5 percent drop.

83.5 percent of MJ's numbers, which is what a player would need to average to match his affect on the game over his career are: 25.13 ppg 5.2 rpg, 4.42 apg, etc etc.


SO... IF Someone surpasses the career numbers enumerated above and wins the same number of titles they will be better and it would be undeniable except for the "old fart" factor SNR brought up.

Mojo Rising
06-13-2009, 01:24 AM
The smartes man in basketball is Jerry West. It is curious to me how much of a better GM Mitch Kupchak became after West left the Grizzlies.

When asked West said he would have Howard of James. He knows the Big Man is more important.

#1. Wilt
#2 Rusell
#3 Jordan

Afterwards, there are 10 players that you could lump together.

Point is that Michael was so good that he throws his name into the conversation with the big men.

Michael is the best small man, no questions asked.

The argument that Kobe is as good as Michael is laughable to me because I would rather have Magic that Kobe.

Fruit Ninja
06-13-2009, 02:37 AM
and what makes people think Kobe is better than Lebron. I think Lebron team would be in the finals if he had Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol, and Andrew Bynum,

Becuase when Kobe guarded Lebron for 2 games this season, he made Lebron look average. He guarded a guy that has a few inches and at least 30 lb's on him and he SHUT him down. Yep. He shut down the great lebron. Just take a look at both games where Lakers and Cav's played. Lebron had horrible games.

Short Leash Hootie
06-13-2009, 02:54 AM
I haven't read this thread.

I haven't even read any more than the thread header.

All I want to know is, who the **** cares?

I think you're a smart dude...very knowledgeable when it comes to sports...

But you always make me laugh...I was reading a thread the other day about this very subject, and you chimed in something "witty" about Jordan being the greatest other than (and then you listed off like 5 or 6 old school players)...

I find that shit hilarious...you're so "old school" nothing "new school" compares.

Michael Jordan is the greatest for ONE reason...and it's not because he was the most athletic or the best shooter, or the best dribbler, or the best teammate...

He's the greatest because he absolutely refused to lose when he finally won...

This article sums up Michael Jordan's greatness:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1998/12/21/1998_12_21_048_TNY_LIBRY_000017085?currentPage=1

Short Leash Hootie
06-13-2009, 02:57 AM
The smartes man in basketball is Jerry West. It is curious to me how much of a better GM Mitch Kupchak became after West left the Grizzlies.

When asked West said he would have Howard of James. He knows the Big Man is more important.

#1. Wilt
#2 Rusell
#3 Jordan

Afterwards, there are 10 players that you could lump together.

Point is that Michael was so good that he throws his name into the conversation with the big men.

Michael is the best small man, no questions asked.

The argument that Kobe is as good as Michael is laughable to me because I would rather have Magic that Kobe.

Bullshit.

Plain and simple.

The Bulls win 9 straight titles if A) Jordan's dad doesn't get murdered, B) Jordan didn't have a gambling addiction, and C) the two Jerry's weren't stubborn idiots who disbanded the team a year early.

Jordan beat Stockton and Malone by himself in 1998...he willed them to victory because he was the greatest...and one of the smartest basketball players of all time.

Read the article I just posted...

Short Leash Hootie
06-13-2009, 03:00 AM
as for the year the Bulls went 55-27 with Pippen and no Jordan...someone said earlier they were one bullshit call from winning it all...

No way. I'm a huge Bulls fan...I was young...I remember that call...that call devastated me...no way Pippen fouled him on that three and no way you can make that call in that pivotal of a moment...

But that win made it 3-1 New York in that series I believe...so even had the Bulls won that series was in no way a lock or anything...

Plus, Pippen showed his true colors when Phil drew up a play for Kukoc at the end of a game and he pulled himself from the game...only to see Kukoc nail the game winner.

I love Pip and all but his greatness has a big ol' question mark next to it because he never had to deal with any sort of pressure...he ALWAYS deferred to Michael...and he really didn't have a choice. Jesus Christ himself would have deferred a pressure situation to Michael on a basketball court.

Short Leash Hootie
06-13-2009, 03:18 AM
In fact, I URGE everyone to read this...it's the finest piece of sports literature I've ever read.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1998/12/21/1998_12_21_048_TNY_LIBRY_000017085?currentPage=1

Miles
06-13-2009, 03:51 AM
In fact, I URGE everyone to read this...it's the finest piece of sports literature I've ever read.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1998/12/21/1998_12_21_048_TNY_LIBRY_000017085?currentPage=1

The pig says, "My wife is a slut"?!

Mr. Arrowhead
06-13-2009, 06:17 AM
Becuase when Kobe guarded Lebron for 2 games this season, he made Lebron look average. He guarded a guy that has a few inches and at least 30 lb's on him and he SHUT him down. Yep. He shut down the great lebron. Just take a look at both games where Lakers and Cav's played. Lebron had horrible games.

Thanks for validating my point, I looked at the stats for the 2 games they played, both players in both games had sub par games, but the difference was in one game pau Gasol had a great game going 11-13 from the field, and the other game Lamar Odom had 28 points.

whoman69
06-13-2009, 08:59 AM
It would be hard to make an arguement Kobe is better then Jordan was. However, I think when it's all said and done Lebron will come closer to taking over the throne as greatest ever.

I think there are better athletes in the NBA today, just not better basketball players.

I will agree and say there are better athletes today than in the past, but the difference is not so great from when Jordan played. The differnce is that players make enough money that the game is year round for them now.

What I will disagree with is that players are better. The fundamentals in the game are sorely lacking. The game has become a one on one league. With players not going to college beyond their freshman years, they are not coming to the NBA with a complete game. There are also very few true centers in the league anymore. That's why a guy like Dwight Howard can seem like such a dominating player, when the no defense Lakers can show he has big holes in his game.

Ebolapox
06-13-2009, 09:11 AM
Kobe has at least another 7 or 8 years left barring injury.

I'm not so sure of that. he's played since he was 18 years old in the nba grind. he's 31 right now. that's 13 years, not even counting all of the playoff games, which amount to another year or two in the league.

so he's at 14-15 right now. unless he develops that outside game that MJ had in his later career, he maybe has 3-4 years of GOOD game left (aside from the wizards MJ act that happened at the end of jordan's career)

SPATCH
06-13-2009, 11:06 AM
I'm still laughing at the OP. Writes about Michael Jordan and then puts in his avatar the guy who calls himself "the Turkish Michael Jordan".

I'm going to agree with The Bad Guy. He's clearly butt-hurt over the ass-pounding Kobe put on the Magic. So he's clinging to Michael Jordan.

That's soooo bold. LMAO Way to go, asswipe.

My avatar last week was Chris "Birdman" Andersen... It's Turkoglu right now because I always root for the underdog...

not because Hedo Turkoglu is my fucking hero or some shit...

cocksneeze

Sure-Oz
06-13-2009, 11:46 AM
The great thing is we are watching 2 more legends in Kobe and Lebron, i was privileged to see the legends of my time, like magic and bird early on whne i didnt understand, but loved that i could see MJ win his rings

PRIEST
06-13-2009, 11:56 AM
MJ is the best ever.

Point.

Blank.

Period.

Done.








THIS :thumb:

milkman
06-13-2009, 12:08 PM
THIS :thumb:

No.

Not that.

Mr. Kotter
06-13-2009, 12:08 PM
My avatar last week was Chris "Birdman" Andersen... It's Turkoglu right now because I always root for the underdog...

not because Hedo Turkoglu is my ****ing hero or some shit...

cocksneeze

cocksneeze.

Heh.

I like that.... :LOL:

SNR
06-13-2009, 12:38 PM
My avatar last week was Chris "Birdman" Andersen... It's Turkoglu right now because I always root for the underdog...

not because Hedo Turkoglu is my ****ing hero or some shit...

cocksneezeYour last avatar was Chris Andersen? This just keeps getting better :doh!:

I pointed out the irony in you devoting your first post to the greatness of Michael Jordan and having a Turkoglu avatar, regardless of your intention of putting up that avatar. The Jordan post is solid (apart from the forever and ever part, with which I disagree) but then coupling that with the guy who calls himself "the Turkish Michael Jordan" is too funny.

Turkoglu's a douchebag as far as I'm concerned. But he IS an underdog, especially now.

-King-
06-13-2009, 12:45 PM
Thanks for validating my point, I looked at the stats for the 2 games they played, both players in both games had sub par games, but the difference was in one game pau Gasol had a great game going 11-13 from the field, and the other game Lamar Odom had 28 points.

Kobe had better games and in the game in Cleveland, he had the flu. A sick Kobe shut down a 100% healthy Lebron.

Fruit Ninja
06-13-2009, 01:10 PM
Thanks for validating my point, I looked at the stats for the 2 games they played, both players in both games had sub par games, but the difference was in one game pau Gasol had a great game going 11-13 from the field, and the other game Lamar Odom had 28 points.

Hehe, Kobe was playing D on Lebron on them games. Thats the game where Kobe dislocated his finger on Lebron's jersey, popped it back into place and kept playing. Didnt even miss a game. Kobe is one tough son of a bitch.

Dude plays hurt all the time. He will go out there with a messed up shoulder, finger, knee/ankles problems and never make any excuse. Kobe has gotten some pretty bad injuries throughout his career and probably shouldnt have been playing in some games, but he still goes out there no excuses.

Can say what you want about him, but he is the closest thing to Jordan we have seen. HOw is that bad company?

Fruit Ninja
06-13-2009, 01:11 PM
Kobe had better games and in the game in Cleveland, he had the flu. A sick Kobe shut down a 100% healthy Lebron.

lik ei said in my post above. dont forget about the dislocated finger. He didnt even come out. went to Vitti, popped it back in place and kept going.

Mr. Arrowhead
06-14-2009, 06:23 AM
Dude plays hurt all the time.
I'll give you that one, he is a tough SOB

Frankie
06-14-2009, 09:37 AM
Kobe is better than lebron. He's much closer to Jordan than lebron is/will ever be.

In fact he is close enough that IMO MJ, Kobe and Dr. J. should be grouped as the elite of the elite, followed closely by Magic, Bird and LeBron. LeBron might join the top group in time.

kobebehar
06-14-2009, 08:42 PM
Dr. J? Oh for god's sake....

1. Wilt

Know why? because the league, the entire league feared him. They had to change the rules. Russell, yeah, was great, but he had a better team around him, and was a more one-dimensional player.

2. Either MJ for sheer excellence as a small man, or Magic Johnson for the unbelievable diversity of skills.

It's not that MJ isn't the best or can't be called it. But trying to end the debate and say it's this absolute slam dunk is just silly.

He isn't the best at everything, and therefore what one values in a player makes it subjective.

Psyko Tek
06-14-2009, 10:57 PM
I don't care how namy rings kobe has he will nevr be thwe best

to many times I have seen him pout when he needed to carrry his team

I don't think phil jacnkson is a coach and I know kobe ain't the next coming
but then again I am a suns fan

and I really wish steve kerr had stayed in chicago

Fruit Ninja
06-14-2009, 11:45 PM
haha, Pheonix Suns are the almost franchise. Almost good enough to do it, but not quite.

lostcause
06-15-2009, 04:35 AM
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_jordan)

on the off chance anyone forgot.

Basileus777
06-15-2009, 12:18 PM
Kobe isn't close to MJ, and he will never be, but after I think I might have him as my 10th best player all-time. But he's on the outside of the list. I have Duncan at #9, and I don't see any way Kobe will ever pass him.

Mr. Arrowhead
06-15-2009, 12:24 PM
Kobe isn't close to MJ, and he will never be, but after I think I might have him as my 10th best player all-time. But he's on the outside of the list. I have Duncan at #9, and I don't see any way Kobe will ever pass him.

your nuts if you think Duncan is better than Kobe

Basileus777
06-15-2009, 12:31 PM
your nuts if you think Duncan is better than Kobe

You don't know what you are talking about if you think I'm nuts. Kobe doesn't have the same career accomplishments of a Duncan. Timmy was the best player on 4 championship teams, and he won it in 2003 with one of the weakest supporting casts in NBA history. Duncan has the record for most consecutive 50 win teams, and the most all-defensive teams. He has two MVPs.

And quite simply, Kobe has never had the impact on the game Duncan did. Big men are just more important, and as a dominant two-way big man Duncan anchored top defenses every year while being the focal point on some very efficient offenses. If you were building a team, no sane person would take Kobe over Duncan if they wanted to win titles.

Kobe is going to have to win 2 more titles before I could put him ahead of Duncan.

BigCatDaddy
06-15-2009, 12:32 PM
I don't care how namy rings kobe has he will nevr be thwe best

to many times I have seen him pout when he needed to carrry his team

I don't think phil jacnkson is a coach and I know kobe ain't the next coming
but then again I am a suns fan

and I really wish steve kerr had stayed in chicago

Kobe may have 4 Rings, but really only led his team to 1 and all of his rings may be with the best centers in the league at the time on his team.

Basileus777
06-15-2009, 12:34 PM
Kobe may have 4 Rings, but really only led his team to 1 and all of his rings may be with the best centers in the league at the time on his team.

Please tell me you aren't saying Gasol is the best center in the league. He's not better than Howard, Yao, or Duncan.

Pau Gasol is a good player, but he's not so good that winning a championship with him as the second option is in any way a knock on Kobe. Let's not forget that Gasol couldn't even win a playoff game as the best player on a team.

CoMoChief
06-15-2009, 12:52 PM
Kobe may have 4 Rings, but really only led his team to 1 and all of his rings may be with the best centers in the league at the time on his team.

I guess people forget that championships can't be won with 1 person

Kobe needed Shaq/Gasol
Shaq needed Kobe/Wade/and maybe Lebron next season who knows.
MJ needed Pippen

Basileus777
06-15-2009, 12:54 PM
I guess people forget that championships can't be won with 1 person

Kobe needed Shaq/Gasol
Shaq needed Kobe/Wade/and maybe Lebron
MJ needed Pippen

I don't think people have forgotten that fact. But when you are comparing all-time greats, whether a player was the best player on his team is still an important distinction.

Buck
06-15-2009, 01:06 PM
You don't know what you are talking about if you think I'm nuts. Kobe doesn't have the same career accomplishments of a Duncan. Timmy was the best player on 4 championship teams, and he won it in 2003 with one of the weakest supporting casts in NBA history. Duncan has the record for most consecutive 50 win teams, and the most all-defensive teams. He has two MVPs.

David Robinson
Manu Ginobli
Tony Parker

How is that one of the weakest supporting casts in history?

You are crazy man.

You remind me of Skip Bayless.

Basileus777
06-15-2009, 01:12 PM
David Robinson
Manu Ginobli
Tony Parker

How is that one of the weakest supporting casts in history?

You are crazy man.

You remind me of Skip Bayless.

In 2003 he won a title with this supporting cast

Here are the playoff numbers for the rest of the 2003 Spurs main rotation players
(ppg, rpg, apg, ts%)
Parker - 14.7, 2.8, 3.5, 0.467(ts%, this sucks)
Jackson - 12.8, 4.1, 2.7, 0.529
Manu - 9.4, 3.8, 2.9, 0.522
Rose - 9.3, 5.8, 1, 0.504
Robinson - 7.8, 6.6, 0.9, 0.591
Bowen - 6.9, 2.9, 1.6, 0.508
Claxton - 5.2, 1.9, 1.9, 0.503

That was truly an all-star team.

In 2003, that wasn't a good supporting cast. Back then Parker was an erratic young point guard who lost playing time to Speedy Claxton. Manu wasn't that good, and David Robinson was on his last legs and retired after that season. Duncan's 2003 championship was probably the 2nd worst NBA title winning supporting cast of all-time next to Dream's 1st one..especially in the playoffs..

Seriously. Don't compare me to Skip Bayless if you don't know you the fuck you are talking about and clearly didn't actually watch the Spurs that year.

L.A. Chieffan
06-15-2009, 01:13 PM
99% of the time this argument arises it is by a Jordan supporter.

CoMoChief
06-15-2009, 01:15 PM
David Robinson
Manu Ginobli
Tony Parker

How is that one of the weakest supporting casts in history?

You are crazy man.

You remind me of Skip Bayless.

What he said.

CoMoChief
06-15-2009, 01:15 PM
ROFL Tim Duncan.

Buck
06-15-2009, 01:32 PM
In 2003 he won a title with this supporting cast

Here are the playoff numbers for the rest of the 2003 Spurs main rotation players
(ppg, rpg, apg, ts%)
Parker - 14.7, 2.8, 3.5, 0.467(ts%, this sucks)
Jackson - 12.8, 4.1, 2.7, 0.529
Manu - 9.4, 3.8, 2.9, 0.522
Rose - 9.3, 5.8, 1, 0.504
Robinson - 7.8, 6.6, 0.9, 0.591
Bowen - 6.9, 2.9, 1.6, 0.508
Claxton - 5.2, 1.9, 1.9, 0.503

That was truly an all-star team.

In 2003, that wasn't a good supporting cast. Back then Parker was an erratic young point guard who lost playing time to Speedy Claxton. Manu wasn't that good, and David Robinson was on his last legs and retired after that season. Duncan's 2003 championship was probably the 2nd worst NBA title winning supporting cast of all-time next to Dream's 1st one..especially in the playoffs..

Seriously. Don't compare me to Skip Bayless if you don't know you the **** you are talking about and clearly didn't actually watch the Spurs that year.

Parker, Jackson, Manu, and Rose all averaged over 9 pts a game

David Robinson was still decent, hes David Robinson.

Who cares about Bowen's offensive numbers, he was a lock-up defender, and you know it.

Not the greatest finals team of all time, but still good. Its not like Duncan did it all by himself like you are claiming he did. Plus who did they beat that year?

The Nets, right? Its not like they were facing the 2008 Celtics or anything.

L.A. Chieffan
06-15-2009, 01:39 PM
The Spurs won their titles by executing top-notch team defense and luckily competing against horrible competition. The later cannot be blamed on the Spurs, it just is what it is, however saying Duncan was the best player on the team is like saying Ray Lewis was the best player on the Ravens the year they won the Superbowl. A correct statement in itself but it is missing critical elements.

Also in '99, you could make the case that there should be asterisk due to the shortened strike season and the fact that the Spurs were the ONLY team practicing and preparing as a full squad during the lockout. Once the season started they had a tremendous advantage over the rest of the league.

Basileus777
06-15-2009, 01:42 PM
Parker, Jackson, Manu, and Rose all averaged over 9 pts a game

David Robinson was still decent, hes David Robinson.

Who cares about Bowen's offensive numbers, he was a lock-up defender, and you know it.

Not the greatest finals team of all time, but still good. Its not like Duncan did it all by himself like you are claiming he did. Plus who did they beat that year?

The Nets, right? Its not like they were facing the 2008 Celtics or anything.

They Spurs beat a good Mavs team and the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. I never said Duncan did it himself, though he clearly carried his team on both sides of the ball. I said he led one of the weakest supporting casts in NBA history to a title, which he did. Since I'm so crazy, find me a weaker supporting cast that won a championship in the last 20 years other than Hakeem's first team.

Buck
06-15-2009, 01:42 PM
Wow thanks for Neg Repping me.

Just because Tim Duncan was the best player on a Defensive Minded team doesn't mean that the team he had around him was scrubby.

And the only reason I said you sound like Skip Bayless is because the constant dick sucking of Tim Duncan he does.

He once stated that Tim Duncan was more exciting than LaDainian Tomlinson.

To each his own I guess, but I don't see how you can say that Tim Duncan is greater than Kobe Bryant.

Basileus777
06-15-2009, 01:47 PM
It's baffling that I'm being labeled crazy for saying that Tim Duncan has had a greater career than Kobe. Other than Shaq, Duncan has been the most dominant player in the post-Jordan era.

I fail to see how the fact that the Spurs won with defense is somehow a knock on Duncan. He anchored that defense. The Spurs have been a consistently great defense team because of Tim Duncan. A dominant defense big is not comparable with a linebacker, it's more eqivalent to entire defensive line in terms of impact.

Brock
06-15-2009, 01:48 PM
It's baffling that I'm being labeled crazy for saying that Tim Duncan has had a greater career than Kobe. Other than Shaq, Duncan has been the most dominant player in the post-Jordan era.

I fail to see how the fact that the Spurs won with defense is somehow a knock on Duncan. He anchored that defense. The Spurs have been a consistently great defense team because of Tim Duncan. A dominant defense big is not comparable with a linebacker, it's more eqivalent to entire defensive line in terms of impact.

That's fucked up.

Buck
06-15-2009, 01:49 PM
They Spurs beat a good Mavs team and the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. I never said Duncan did it himself, though he clearly carried his team on both sides of the ball. I said he led one of the weakest supporting casts in NBA history to a title, which he did. Since I'm so crazy, find me a weaker supporting cast that won a championship in the last 20 years other than Hakeem's first team.

At first you said "Weakest Casts in NBA History", and now its just the last 20 years?

Whatever man, the whole point is that you are making out Tim Duncan to be an all time great over Kobe. Who would you rather have on your team when you need a last second shot?

Who would you rather have on your team, when someone like MJ is coming down the court to take his last second shot?

Who do you trust to get the ball down the court and have complete control of the offense?

I know for any of the questions the answer is Kobe.

Fruit Ninja
06-15-2009, 01:51 PM
It's baffling that I'm being labeled crazy for saying that Tim Duncan has had a greater career than Kobe. Other than Shaq, Duncan has been the most dominant player in the post-Jordan era.

I fail to see how the fact that the Spurs won with defense is somehow a knock on Duncan. He anchored that defense. The Spurs have been a consistently great defense team because of Tim Duncan. A dominant defense big is not comparable with a linebacker, it's more eqivalent to entire defensive line in terms of impact.

Time Duncan is a great player. The best forward to ever play the game, but he's not in the discussions with the best player to ever play the game. He's a hall of famer first ballot. There is no question about that, but i think your one of the only people to put him in discussions as the best player ever.

Kobe's career isnt even done. He has a shot to win 2-4 more titles. Spurs imo are done.

Basileus777
06-15-2009, 01:55 PM
At first you said "Weakest Casts in NBA History", and now its just the last 20 years?

Whatever man, the whole point is that you are making out Tim Duncan to be an all time great over Kobe. Who would you rather have on your team when you need a last second shot?

Who would you rather have on your team, when someone like MJ is coming down the court to take his last second shot?

Who do you trust to get the ball down the court and have complete control of the offense?

I know for any of the questions the answer is Kobe.

I'm not backtracking, find a team from any era then. You won't though.

Sure I'd rather have Kobe take that last shot. But I'd rather have Duncan anchoring my defense, grabbing rebounds, scoring in the post, and drawing double-teams for the other 47 minutes.

DJJasonp
06-15-2009, 01:55 PM
I think it's way too early to start comparing Kobe, Lebron, MJ.

Especially in Lebron's case.

People tend to forget the years where MJ and the Bulls couldnt get over the Pistons hump in the playoffs.

THere's a pretty decent similarity in where Lebron is now....and where MJ was in those years he couldnt get to the finals.

Basileus777
06-15-2009, 01:56 PM
Time Duncan is a great player. The best forward to ever play the game, but he's not in the discussions with the best player to ever play the game. He's a hall of famer first ballot. There is no question about that, but i think your one of the only people to put him in discussions as the best player ever.
.

I don't think DUncan has any case for being the GOAT. I have him as the 9th best player of all-time, right ahead of Kobe at 10. Kobe can pass him with 2 more titles, I just don't think that is likely.

This isn't about who is the greatest player of all-time, neither Duncan nor Kobe are in the discussion. I believe that only Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Magic are GOAT candidates.

dirk digler
06-15-2009, 01:56 PM
I don't know that Heat team that won a few years back was pretty weak. And don't go throwing all the names that were on that team because all of them were old as fuck even Shaq.

Buck
06-15-2009, 01:58 PM
I'm not backtracking, find a team from any era then. You won't though.

Sure I'd rather have Kobe take that last shot. But I'd rather have Duncan anchoring my defense, grabbing rebounds, scoring in the post, and drawing double-teams for the other 47 minutes.

Lets see.

Kobe is a great defender, he gets decent rebounds, can score in the post, draws double and even triple teams some times, can facilitate with assists, calls every play out on the court, and is a vocal leader.

I don't see how Tim Duncan is "Greater" than Kobe Bryant.

Thats what this whole arguement is about.

Kobe can got for 40+ any night and also play Lockdown D.

dirk digler
06-15-2009, 01:58 PM
I think it's way too early to start comparing Kobe, Lebron, MJ.

Especially in Lebron's case.

People tend to forget the years where MJ and the Bulls couldnt get over the Pistons hump in the playoffs.

THere's a pretty decent similarity in where Lebron is now....and where MJ was in those years he couldnt get to the finals.

Yep I made that case earlier as well. Take Lebron off the Cavs and that team is horrid. They need to add quite a few players to be able to win it all.

Buck
06-15-2009, 01:59 PM
Why does Kobe have to win 6 titles compared to Duncan's 4 to surpass him?

Basileus777
06-15-2009, 02:01 PM
I don't know that Heat team that won a few years back was pretty weak. And don't go throwing all the names that were on that team because all of them were old as fuck even Shaq.

It's one of the weaker casts. But Shaq was still a very good player, even if he didn't have the greatest finals. And while Payton and Walker were washed up, Payton had some clutch moments and wasn't a bad backup PG and Walker had a pretty good finals. They also had some good players in Haslem, Posey, and Zo.

Basileus777
06-15-2009, 02:03 PM
Lets see.

Kobe is a great defender, he gets decent rebounds, can score in the post, draws double and even triple teams some times, can facilitate with assists, calls every play out on the court, and is a vocal leader.

I don't see how Tim Duncan is "Greater" than Kobe Bryant.

Thats what this whole arguement is about.

Kobe can got for 40+ any night and also play Lockdown D.

Kobe doesn't have a fraction of the defensive impact that Duncan had. He's a guard. And that's ignoring the fact that Kobe played his best defense as a second option behind Shaq. It's absurd that you are even comparing Kobe's rebounding to Duncan's. And the double-teams that a perimeter player draws are no-where near as useful for an offense as those a post-player draws.

The problem here is that you don't seem to understand the difference in impact between a guard and a big man.

DJ's left nut
06-15-2009, 02:06 PM
It's one of the weaker casts. But Shaq was still a very good player, even if he didn't have the greatest finals. And while Payton and Walker were washed up, Payton had some clutch moments and wasn't a bad backup PG and Walker had a pretty good finals. They also had some good players in Haslem, Posey, and Zo.

And Tim Donaghy, Dick Bavetta, Bennet Salvatore and every last one of the schmucks in stripes that made that championship possible.

That Final set the league back 3 seasons on it's own. All Wade had to do was drive completely out of control into a pack of people and the officials would bail him out. It was an absolute embarassment to the league (and that's ignoring all the times that Shaq prison raped Dampier with no calls).

The officiating in this years Final was some of the best I've seen in awhile. They let everyone play and we got a true result for it.

But the Heat "title" has a gigantic asterisk next to it in my book.

Mr. Arrowhead
06-15-2009, 02:23 PM
But the Heat "title" has a gigantic asterisk next to it in my book.
yup agreed, there is several Youtube video showing phantom calls in that series. There was calls made where dallas fouled D wade, but the problem was they were 2 feet away from him

Ecto-I
06-15-2009, 03:14 PM
And Tim Donaghy, Dick Bavetta, Bennet Salvatore and every last one of the schmucks in stripes that made that championship possible.

That Final set the league back 3 seasons on it's own. All Wade had to do was drive completely out of control into a pack of people and the officials would bail him out. It was an absolute embarassment to the league (and that's ignoring all the times that Shaq prison raped Dampier with no calls).

The officiating in this years Final was some of the best I've seen in awhile. They let everyone play and we got a true result for it.

But the Heat "title" has a gigantic asterisk next to it in my book.

Good point. The finals officiating this year WAS some of the best I've seen in a while. Good physical play with minimal bailouts for BOTH teams.

Fruit Ninja
06-15-2009, 05:31 PM
Good point. The finals officiating this year WAS some of the best I've seen in a while. Good physical play with minimal bailouts for BOTH teams.

lol, not really, at times it was ok at best, but it was horrible overall imo.

Fruit Ninja
06-15-2009, 05:32 PM
I don't think DUncan has any case for being the GOAT. I have him as the 9th best player of all-time, right ahead of Kobe at 10. Kobe can pass him with 2 more titles, I just don't think that is likely.

This isn't about who is the greatest player of all-time, neither Duncan nor Kobe are in the discussion. I believe that only Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Magic are GOAT candidates.

He done passed Duncan a while ago. ON my list and just about everyone else's list. So i am ok with that. The fact that Kobe and Jordan are even discussed in the same sentence is fine by me.

That should be ok with any player that plays in the NBA.