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***SPRAYER
06-13-2009, 06:55 PM
PETER HITCHENS: You can't hear the jackboots, but this is still oppressionLast updated at 10:39 PM on 13th June 2009

We used to think that Communism would arrive in this country on the bayonets of Soviet soldiers, if it came at all. We never realised that it would instead materialise amid our freedom and prosperity, step by tiny step, in the form of bureaucratic interference and political correctness.

As one of the few British people who has actually lived in a Communist country (Moscow in the early Nineties, since you ask), I know better than most what such societies feel like, and how they work. And in the past two weeks I have seen several developments in Britain which seem strangely familiar.

The first was a proposal to refuse school places to children who had not been given the MMR injection. I have no idea if the MMR is safe or not. But I know many thoughtful and well-informed people who believe that it damaged their children, or fear that it might do so. A free country would not blackmail individuals in this way.

The next was a sinister report from the 'Department for Children' demanding that prying officials be empowered to force their way into the homes of parents who prefer to educate their sons and daughters at home.
This is our all-powerful State's angry response to a growing rebellion, by mothers and fathers who are sick of seeing their children bullied, neglected and miseducated in the state education system, and rightly think they can do a better job. How can the commissars in charge of the Western world's worst schools be fit to judge how well a parent is teaching her own child?
The pretext for this invasion of privacy is a baseless suggestion that home education could be used as a cover for child abuse. Well, so it could, and so could piano lessons, dentistry or newspaper delivery rounds. But these are not subject to Comrade Balls's new inquisition. Why not? Because they don't challenge his desire to march all children into egalitarian comprehensive sausage machines, notorious as they are for violence, ignorance and drugs.

CONT:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1192859/PETER-HITCHENS-You-hear-jackboots-oppression.html?ITO=1490

Baby Lee
06-13-2009, 07:06 PM
Requiring innoculation against highly infectious diseases before letting a kid get packed like veal into a class with other people's kids, and setting some standards for the only teaching environment that have none whatsoever. . . Happening on the other side of the effing Atlantic? With all we have to worry about over here.

No, don't guess you'd be hearing jackboots tromping around GB.

KcFanInGA
06-13-2009, 11:38 PM
I have two children in public schools, and we will be homeschooling as of this coming school year. They just aren't being challenged. Teachers let my son slide with turning in homework and such because "he understands the work". Well that is not acceptable, and teaches no responsiblity. Also, we are Christians and want to teach him things like the pledge of allegiance. There are many reasons, and to each his own, but for us we feel it is right. I would submit that the dumbing down of our children is important, here and everywhere. I don't have a problem with vaccines, we have always vaccinated our children (we have 3), but I believe this should be a choice to be made by parents, not the government. Just my 2 cents.

Nightwish
06-14-2009, 12:54 AM
Neo-McCarthyism. Godwin's Law. Good times!

But I am kind of curious why Sht4Brns took a break from his usual Obama-bashing to tell us about goings-on in Great Britain.

Taco John
06-14-2009, 12:57 AM
Requiring innoculation against highly infectious diseases before letting a kid get packed like veal into a class with other people's kids, and setting some standards for the only teaching environment that have none whatsoever. . . Happening on the other side of the effing Atlantic? With all we have to worry about over here.

No, don't guess you'd be hearing jackboots tromping around GB.


Who gets to set the standards for what I teach my kid in my own home? You and Banyon? Some education Czar?

Let's not pretend that this stuff is only happening on the "other side of the effing Atlantic." People want to rob parental rights here too.

Nightwish
06-14-2009, 01:03 AM
Who gets to set the standards for what I teach my kid in my own home? You and Banyon? Some education Czar?

Let's not pretend that this stuff is only happening on the "other side of the effing Atlantic." People want to rob parental rights here too.
There is a need for some degree of standard. You may want the right to teach your kid that the Holocaust was all a lie, but then every employer in the country should have the right to say, upon learning that, "If you're that much of a idiot, I'm not hiring you." Perhaps a bit of an extreme example, but hopefully you can see the conundrum.

***SPRAYER
06-14-2009, 08:46 AM
There is a need for some degree of standard. You may want the right to teach your kid that the Holocaust was all a lie

Or that men dressing up in women's lingerie is not normal, acceptable behavior.

Nightwish
06-14-2009, 12:29 PM
Or that men dressing up in women's lingerie is not normal, acceptable behavior.
Name a school that is teaching that it is acceptable behavior?

BucEyedPea
06-14-2009, 01:50 PM
Who gets to set the standards for what I teach my kid in my own home? You and Banyon? Some education Czar?

Let's not pretend that this stuff is only happening on the "other side of the effing Atlantic." People want to rob parental rights here too.

Exactly! My kid is being raised to be a freedom fighter and pro free enterprise.

BucEyedPea
06-14-2009, 01:51 PM
Name a school that is teaching that it is acceptable behavior?

Oh come on, you've heard about King and King and Heather Has Two Mommies being read to kindergardners in public schools. It's one thing to live and let live but you gotta allow it on both sides.

Nightwish
06-14-2009, 04:20 PM
Oh come on, you've heard about King and King and Heather Has Two Mommies being read to kindergardners in public schools. It's one thing to live and let live but you gotta allow it on both sides.
There's a difference between teaching tolerance and teaching intolerance and hate speech. The latter is far more rampant in home-schooling than it is in public or private schooling. That's why standards are needed. Someone has to enact them.

***SPRAYER
06-14-2009, 04:46 PM
Name a school that is teaching that it is acceptable behavior?

http://www.8bm.com/diatribes/volume02/003/051.htm

Do you want me to stop here, or should I keep going?

***SPRAYER
06-14-2009, 04:47 PM
Someone has to enact them.

Yes, Brilliant Comrade will enact them!

|Zach|
06-14-2009, 04:56 PM
I will say this....I think the idea of home schooling is great. The theory of it.

The reality of it from homeschooling kids I have had contact with? Terribly socially awkward. It was like they were from another universe or something.

Maybe my sample size is small and my conclusions are unfair. That could be. All I know is what I have experienced time and again. Being able to get ahead in the real world mean learning about the real world and its ups and downs. A child in middle school or high school can put the work in to get more out of their education than the average student if they work for that. Not every public school education is created equal.

MagicHef
06-14-2009, 05:12 PM
There is a need for some degree of standard. You may want the right to teach your kid that the Holocaust was all a lie, but then every employer in the country should have the right to say, upon learning that, "If you're that much of a idiot, I'm not hiring you." Perhaps a bit of an extreme example, but hopefully you can see the conundrum.

So right now employers are forced to hire Holocaust deniers? Is that your point?

MagicHef
06-14-2009, 05:20 PM
I think I will also take advantage of this opportunity to bring up an old thread of mine. (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=5741844)

Nightwish
06-15-2009, 12:24 AM
So right now employers are forced to hire Holocaust deniers? Is that your point?
I said it was an extreme example. The point being, though, that there are some really radical people out there who are more concerned with making sure their kids don't get exposed to people who can offer them differing viewpoints, and less concerned with making sure their children are taught what they need to know to make it in society.

Another problem is that there are a lot of parents who insist on teaching their homeschooled children themselves, whether they are qualified in the subjects or not. Several states require parents or prospective homeschool teachers to pass standard tests in each subject they plan to teach, just to make sure they actually know the material well enough to teach it (whether they know how to teach it is a whole nother problem). This is a good thing, but not all states have that requirement, and that leaves the door open for a giant mess in the making. Likewise, several states also require homeschooled children to pass proctored exams at various stages, but again, not all states have that.

banyon
06-15-2009, 12:29 AM
I said it was an extreme example. The point being, though, that there are some really radical people out there who are more concerned with making sure their kids don't get exposed to people who can offer them differing viewpoints, and less concerned with making sure their children are taught what they need to know to make it in society.

.


I think I may know such a person. They may even post in this forum.

Rausch
06-15-2009, 12:30 AM
Another problem is that there are a lot of parents who insist on teaching their homeschooled children themselves, whether they are qualified in the subjects or not.

The state says I'm qualified to teach kids.

I did for 2 years.

You ready to ammend that list of $3it that scares you?...

Nightwish
06-15-2009, 12:37 AM
The state says I'm qualified to teach kids.

I did for 2 years.
And? I said that several states have standards requiring that parents pass qualification tests for the subjects they teach. If your state says you're qualified, good for you. Many aren't.

You ready to ammend that list of $3it that scares you?...
I'm not sure what it is that you think "scares" me, but if you are referring to the list of problems and concerns with homeschooling overall that I alluded to, why would I amend that just because one guy comes on and says that the state says that he (one guy) is qualified? Do you think that just because you're a qualified parent and teacher that every parent is a qualified teacher? Why would you possibly think that?

BucEyedPea
06-15-2009, 07:14 AM
Wow, there's no legal requirements for a private school teacher to be certified but a homeschooling mom teaching must be? A homeschool is considered just another private school. Not all those schools hire only certified teachers nor are they legally required to do so. ( it's just wise to make oneself marketable )

And if anyone bothered to check the record they, as a group excel, do better than public school kids, get accepted to college including elite ones and even get scholarships. The child abuse/neglect charges are exaggerated. There's a lot of it here because the schools suck.

And homeschooled kids are not awkward. Someone's had limited exposure to them. But if giving blowjobs to as many boys as possible at age 14 is the standard I'll settle for her being awkward, which she isn't. She hangs with boys and girls half of whom are homeschooled with the others in private school. There are networking groups they join....she even went to a prom. The few HS'ers she's hung with so far, in this neighborhood she found to be unethical and even immoral. ( vandalism and theft) She's received the presidents award for academic achievement three times when at her school with a 95 average grade, was in a choir, sang publically, was head of student council, won several top art awards. She even read the Odyssey at age 14. I'm doing it to save money and to get her done with HS a year earlier which she wants. ( She's already more than a year ahead of them) I think she'll be just fine.

I never knew Nightiwish was such a fascist on education. He should move to Oregon where such mindsets tried to outlaw even private schools at one time. Some of those requirements are designed to shut down homeschooling. Parents who homeschool are usually more conscientious and want the best for their child. It's not an easy thing to do. Why would they shortchange their kid in the workplace. Again, the goal of such people is CONTROL of your children's mind. And many homeschooling parents hire tutors or other experts to teach subjects they don't feel able to teach.

Are Nightwish's jack boots emerald green?

BucEyedPea
06-15-2009, 07:28 AM
It's a Constitutional Right of parents to direct the education of their child.

Supreme Court Levels Playing Field

by J. Michael Smith
HSLDA President

It is no secret that homeschooling is growing and gaining credibility as a viable educational alternative.

More and more colleges are actively recruiting homeschooled students; each year there are an estimated 50,000-plus homeschool high school graduates who find work or go to college, and thousands of new curriculum products have become available over the past five years. Meanwhile, the number of homeschoolers continues to grow by 7 percent to 15 percent each year; more states are reforming their laws to remove the burdens from parents who want to home educate, and homeschoolers continue to excel in national competitions as well as on standardized tests. In short, homeschooling is a major success story.

Now, for the first time, homeschooling has been recognized in an opinion by a U.S. Supreme Court justice as a viable educational alternative. Morse v. Frederick, which recently made national headlines, involves free speech and whether a public school can regulate what a student says. The 5-4 decision said that the school principal, Deborah Morse, did not violate the free speech rights of Joseph Frederick when she took down his pro-marijuana banner, which said “Bong Hits 4 Jesus.” The student had violated school policy and was advocating illegal drug use.

While the Home School Legal Defense Association agrees with the ruling in this specific case, it is a reminder to all families that when your child enters the public school, you have virtually ceded your parental rights to the public school.

The clearest explanation of this view was expressed by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in Fields v. Palmdale, when it said, “While parents may have a fundamental right to decide whether to send their child to a public school, they do not have a fundamental right generally to direct how a public school teaches their child.”

This is the reason many parents have chosen to homeschool, especially those parents who have a religious worldview, because they know their children will be taught secular values by the public system.

In Morse v. Frederick, however, Justice Clarence Thomas said, “If parents do not like the rules imposed by those schools, they can seek redress in school boards or legislatures; they can send their children to private schools or home school them; or they can simply move.”

This is the first time the Supreme Court specifically has recognized homeschooling as a viable educational alternative. HSLDA has worked for 24 years to advance a parent’s right to homeschool and to promote homeschooling to the general public.

After 24 years, it is gratifying to read the words of a Supreme Court justice who rightfully placed homeschooling on a level playing field with public and private schools. This kind of recognition is tremendously significant to the homeschool community.

It’s another step on the long road to raise homeschooling to the point where, when the terms public, private or homeschool are used in the same sentence, they all will be seen as mainstream educational alternatives.

Homeschooling is a modern education success story and HSLDA urges all parents to carefully consider their educational options. Homeschooling should be front and center because it is a viable alternative that has helped hundreds of thousands of children become mature, productive citizens.

Michael Smith is the president of the Home School Legal Defense Association. He may be contacted at (540)338-5600; or send email to media@hslda.org.

oldandslow
06-15-2009, 08:35 AM
We have homeschooled all of our children. Three grown boys...as well as a boy and girl of school age now.... Of the boys, one is a Ph.D...another is well on his way to an MD...and the third has an organic farm. All are successful in their own way. All still practice traditional ways in some form - which is important to me.

Why did we do it?

Public school (I know little about privates) are simply warehouses for future cubicle workers. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Sit down, don't question, and be quiet is the mantra from kindergarten to 12th grade.

Second, we raised our children traditionally, i.e., the boys had long hair and braids. In South Dakota that doesn't matter, public schools here don't discriminate against NA religious philosophy. In both MO and in North Carolina (colleges where I previously worked) trying to get a boy enrolled with braids was impossible. So we we didn't fight it.

Third, all of our children speak their native tongue and English. In public schools you are lucky to get a spattering of Spanish.

BEP and I disagree about many things. This isn't one of them.

RaiderH8r
06-15-2009, 08:47 AM
I said it was an extreme example. The point being, though, that there are some really radical people out there who are more concerned with making sure their kids don't get exposed to people who can offer them differing viewpoints, and less concerned with making sure their children are taught what they need to know to make it in society.

Another problem is that there are a lot of parents who insist on teaching their homeschooled children themselves, whether they are qualified in the subjects or not. Several states require parents or prospective homeschool teachers to pass standard tests in each subject they plan to teach, just to make sure they actually know the material well enough to teach it (whether they know how to teach it is a whole nother problem). This is a good thing, but not all states have that requirement, and that leaves the door open for a giant mess in the making. Likewise, several states also require homeschooled children to pass proctored exams at various stages, but again, not all states have that.

Another problem is that there are a lot of "teachers" who insist on teaching public school children themselves, whether they are qualified in the subjects or not.

"Teachers" in this country, by and large, have a record of failure going on 3 generations.

mlyonsd
06-15-2009, 08:51 AM
Not every public school teacher has a vested interest in the welfare of the kids. At least not as much as a parent that oversee's the homeschooling of their own children.

MagicHef
06-15-2009, 08:58 AM
We probably shouldn't trust parents to raise their children at all!

BucEyedPea
06-15-2009, 09:24 AM
We probably shouldn't trust parents to raise their children at all!

That will slowly come next...like they do in Sweden with state social workers making regular check ups on parents. Hey they don't call it socialism for nothing. The ideology for control freaks.

BucEyedPea
06-15-2009, 09:27 AM
Public school (I know little about privates) are simply warehouses for future cubicle workers. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Sit down, don't question, and be quiet is the mantra from kindergarten to 12th grade.
Yup! Love the point about being future cubicle workers. That is the truth. They taught to be workers not independently capable.
It's all about conforming in public schools. As if they can't form their own opinions once they're in college. That's usually where they start to do more of that anyway.
My daughter was already educated in a school with kids from Germany, Mexico, Italy, France and Israel. She's been to these kid's homes too. She's been exposed to plenty of cultural influences.
She just refused to go to public school once she was done. She remembered how the public school kids couldn't make change at this event she had to go to at age ten. Her school's team played other private schools in sports too. She participated in those sports as well. Yeah, she's really sheltered.


BEP and I disagree about many things. This isn't one of them.
Yes we do. But I love you today. :D

mlyonsd
06-15-2009, 09:39 AM
Yup! Love the point about being future cubicle workers.
It's all about conforming in public schools. As if they can't form their own opinions once they're in college. That's usually where they start to do more of that.


I don't know if that's completely accurate, at least not in the public school my son attends.

There is no doubt a student that goes through public schools just doing the basic things that are expected of them might end up as "cubicle workers". But there are tons of opportunities for someone that pushes themselves to do so much more. From an academic point of view I mean. Much more than I had the opportunity to do. But it's the teachers in these cases that make the difference. The ones that push kids to do more than the curriculum teaches.

BucEyedPea
06-15-2009, 09:49 AM
I don't know if that's completely accurate, at least not in the public school my son attends.

There is no doubt a student that goes through public schools just doing the basic things that are expected of them might end up as "cubicle workers". But there are tons of opportunities for someone that pushes themselves to do so much more. From an academic point of view I mean. Much more than I had the opportunity to do. But it's the teachers in these cases that make the difference. The ones that push kids to do more than the curriculum teaches.

That statement is not just about academics....it's about lack of independence as in the ability to be self motivated to start and create something, and being different. I am very pro-individual in educating. I don't think it works to educate every individual child the same way but thing it should include their interests including learning styles. You can't get more individualist in a HS environment. The school she went to for the past 10 or so years was very big that by age 13 they organize practical activies with groups so they also learn to be leaders and not just followers.

She bucks me on occassion but I don't look at that as a bad thing.

KILLER_CLOWN
06-15-2009, 09:54 AM
We have homeschooled all of our children. Three grown boys...as well as a boy and girl of school age now.... Of the boys, one is a Ph.D...another is well on his way to an MD...and the third has an organic farm. All are successful in their own way. All still practice traditional ways in some form - which is important to me.

Why did we do it?

Public school (I know little about privates) are simply warehouses for future cubicle workers. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Sit down, don't question, and be quiet is the mantra from kindergarten to 12th grade.

Second, we raised our children traditionally, i.e., the boys had long hair and braids. In South Dakota that doesn't matter, public schools here don't discriminate against NA religious philosophy. In both MO and in North Carolina (colleges where I previously worked) trying to get a boy enrolled with braids was impossible. So we we didn't fight it.

Third, all of our children speak their native tongue and English. In public schools you are lucky to get a spattering of Spanish.

BEP and I disagree about many things. This isn't one of them.

Congrats you really have this thing called life figured out i wish there were more people like you. :)

mlyonsd
06-15-2009, 10:01 AM
That statement is not just about academics....it's about lack of independence as in the ability to be self motivated to start and create something, and being different. I am very pro-individual in educating. I don't think it works to educate every individual child the same way but thing it should include their interests including learning styles. You can't get more individualist in a HS environment. The school she went to for the past 10 or so years was very big that by age 13 they organize practical activies with groups so they also learn to be leaders and not just followers.

She bucks me on occassion but I don't look at that as a bad thing.

I respect and agree with your point. That's why home schooling is a great option.

One should expect some guidelines and certain level of conformity though if they send their kids to public school.

BucEyedPea
06-15-2009, 04:06 PM
I respect and agree with your point. That's why home schooling is a great option.

One should expect some guidelines and certain level of conformity though if they send their kids to public school.

Well, yeah because in any group, particularly a large, it's more difficult and would be much more expensive.