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mlyonsd
06-15-2009, 06:11 PM
St. Anthony.

Patron Saint of Lost Objects.

My wife prays to St. Anthony whenever something is lost. It could be something I lost, or anyone she knows lost. I can't recall this ever failing btw.

Anyway, we got into a discussion tonight about what to do if he holds out on you. My wife has never had to stoop to this level, but she says it is a ritual to take a picture (St. Anthony is usually holding the baby Jesus) and cutting them apart with scissors, keeping them separate until the object is found.

I don't care if you mock the claim, I just want to know if anyone has ever heard of separating St. Anthony from the baby Jesus as a ritual.

(Payoff for our bet is in the bedroom, Lord help me if this is blasphemy)

L.A. Chieffan
06-15-2009, 06:13 PM
um

CrazyPhuD
06-15-2009, 06:21 PM
Call me crazy but uhhh this has nothing to do with the bible....it's a catholic ritual.

BTW you're probably screwed right now anyway...because St. Anthony himself is lost....

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090615/GPG0101/90615139/1207/GPG01

DaFace
06-15-2009, 06:22 PM
So, what's the bet?

mlyonsd
06-15-2009, 06:25 PM
Call me crazy but uhhh this has nothing to do with the bible....it's a catholic ritual.

BTW you're probably screwed right now anyway...because St. Anthony himself is lost....

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20090615/GPG0101/90615139/1207/GPG01

First, the bible thing was more of an eye catcher.

Second, as sick as it is, my wife and I laughed at your link. Rep.

FAX
06-15-2009, 06:25 PM
Hmmm. If it works, an explanation that makes sense to me is that the ritual itself provides a trigger for the sub-conscious mind ... removes the block preventing you from recalling the location of the lost object. That's my guess, anyhow.

FAX

Skip Towne
06-15-2009, 06:25 PM
If you are continually losing things you should pray to St. Parkinson.

AustinChief
06-15-2009, 06:26 PM
St. Anthony.

Patron Saint of Lost Objects.

My wife prays to St. Anthony whenever something is lost. It could be something I lost, or anyone she knows lost. I can't recall this ever failing btw.

Anyway, we got into a discussion tonight about what to do if he holds out on you. My wife has never had to stoop to this level, but she says it is a ritual to take a picture (St. Anthony is usually holding the baby Jesus) and cutting them apart with scissors, keeping them separate until the object is found.

I don't care if you mock the claim, I just want to know if anyone has ever heard of separating St. Anthony from the baby Jesus as a ritual.

(Payoff for our bet is in the bedroom, Lord help me if this is blasphemy)

I have NEVER heard of this "ritual"... Born and raised Catholic

Ugly Duck
06-15-2009, 06:27 PM
Hey... my wife gave me a little icon of Saint Anne.... Patron Saint of Lost Objects. Now I discover that St. Anthony is really the lost thing Saint... no wonder I'm still losing stuff!

mlyonsd
06-15-2009, 06:27 PM
So, what's the bet?

It has something to do with losing something and then finding it blindfolded.

Again, Lord, I apologize...

AustinChief
06-15-2009, 06:30 PM
I have NEVER heard of this "ritual"... Born and raised Catholic

The whole cutting up a Saint's picture to hold him for ransom is a bit blasphemous in itself.

Not usually judgemental but damn that is a bit distasteful.

Do you threaten to burn the crucifix if you don't get good Christmas or Easter presents?

(if you DO.. and it WORKS... let me know.. I will start looking for discount crucifixes!)

mlyonsd
06-15-2009, 06:31 PM
Hmmm. If it works, an explanation that makes sense to me is that the ritual itself provides a trigger for the sub-conscious mind ... removes the block preventing you from recalling the location of the lost object. That's my guess, anyhow.

FAX

The funny thing is it can take days or weeks to work. Then she might be thinking of something completely differnt, not the prayer, and it comes to her.

Sometimes she dreams about it.

I know, rational thinking might explain it but I've seen it enough times to think there is something real about it.

RJ
06-15-2009, 06:34 PM
Whenever I lose something, I sacrifice a goat every day until the object has been found. This method had never failed me. Some objects require more goats than others, of course.

mlyonsd
06-15-2009, 06:36 PM
The whole cutting up a Saint's picture to hold him for ransom is a bit blasphemous in itself.

Not usually judgemental but damn that is a bit distasteful.

Do you threaten to burn the crucifix if you don't get good Christmas or Easter presents?

(if you DO.. and it WORKS... let me know.. I will start looking for discount crucifixes!)

ROFL Well that's why the 'discussion' started. My daughter lost her wedding ring and my wife told her to pray, and as a last resort to find a picture of St. Anthony and Jesus and cut it apart.

But in the end the point was moot. My wife right away prayed to St. Anthony and she knew right away the ring was lost in her bed.

If it's a mother daughter thing about where it would be lost I don't want to think about it.

FAX
06-15-2009, 06:40 PM
The funny thing is it can take days or weeks to work. Then she might be thinking of something completely differnt, not the prayer, and it comes to her.

Sometimes she dreams about it.

I know, rational thinking might explain it but I've seen it enough times to think there is something real about it.

Actually, that supports the "trigger" theory. I have no doubt that it works as you say. The question in my mind is "how"? The spiritual plane of existence is active at all times, yet if you're going to access it, you must be both receptive and available.

So, either the ritual functions as a method for creating a connection between your wife and the supernatural, or the ritual is allowing the sub-conscious mind (which already knows the location of the lost object) to communicate with the conscious mind (via dreams, while thinking of something else, etc.).

Either way, if it is working it means that something in the ritual itself is fostering a residual memory of the location. My guess is that it's simply removing a block that allows the sub-conscious mind to reveal the location. Kind of like self-hypnosis.

FAX

mlyonsd
06-15-2009, 06:46 PM
Actually, that supports the "trigger" theory. I have no doubt that it works as you say. The question in my mind is "how"? The spiritual plane of existence is active at all times, yet if you're going to access it, you must be both receptive and available.

So, either the ritual functions as a method for creating a connection between your wife and the supernatural, or the ritual is allowing the sub-conscious mind (which already knows the location of the lost object) to communicate with the conscious mind (via dreams, while thinking of something else, etc.).

Either way, if it is working it means that something in the ritual itself is fostering a residual memory of the location. My guess is that it's simply removing a block that allows the sub-conscious mind to reveal the location. Kind of like self-hypnosis.

FAX

How does that work if she can find things lost by other people? On more than one occasion she had told people where their lost articles are after telling them to say the prayer.

Now I'm wondering if winning the bet is really in my best interest.

RJ
06-15-2009, 06:53 PM
How does that work if she can find things lost by other people? On more than one occasion she had told people where their lost articles are after telling them to say the prayer.

Now I'm wondering if winning the bet is really in my best interest.


Have you asked her about getting info on future powerball numbers instead of someone's lost car keys?

Douche Baggins
06-15-2009, 06:56 PM
Fuckin' Catholics!

Fairplay
06-15-2009, 07:00 PM
I have had a catholic person, just in the last year or so mentioning about losing something and praying to some Saint about it.

I was like a Saint for finding lost things, she said yes.

I was like...okay.

AustinChief
06-15-2009, 07:03 PM
Fuckin' Catholics!

...better than virgin JWs...

Saulbadguy
06-15-2009, 07:14 PM
I know, rational thinking might explain it but I've seen it enough times to think there is something real about it.

ROFL

FAX
06-15-2009, 07:18 PM
How does that work if she can find things lost by other people? On more than one occasion she had told people where their lost articles are after telling them to say the prayer.

Now I'm wondering if winning the bet is really in my best interest.

Well, as I understand it, it's like this ...

There is a spiritual or supernatural plane. It is as real as this plane of existence, but we are unable to perceive it with our mortal senses. It's what Emerson called the "Ethers" or some philosophers refer to as the "God Mind".

Anyhow, this "God Mind" is all-knowing. It sees the past, present, and future as one, big, giant glom of stuff.

Then, there is the human mind ... it is divided into two hunks; the conscious and sub-conscious minds. The conscious mind is the part of us that is logical and functions based on input from the mortal senses. The sub-conscious mind is illogical and functions based on input from both the conscious mind and the "Ethers". It is like a bridge or connection between our existence and the supernatural plane.

So, when you tell the sub-conscious mind to hook up with the Ethers for a particular purpose - such as locating a lost object, it will do so and then get back to your conscious mind with the answer or the solution or whatever else it is that you've told it to find. It does this because it is "illogical" and does not rely on sensory input for its function.

That's why, when you go through the ritual, your sub-conscious mind is receiving an instruction to go to the Ethers, get the goods, and return with the answer.

FAX

wild1
06-15-2009, 07:24 PM
The guy lived the life of a saint and as repayment he has to find knicknacks that people lost?

LMAO

SNR
06-15-2009, 07:55 PM
The whole cutting up a Saint's picture to hold him for ransom is a bit blasphemous in itself.

Not usually judgemental but damn that is a bit distasteful.

Do you threaten to burn the crucifix if you don't get good Christmas or Easter presents?

(if you DO.. and it WORKS... let me know.. I will start looking for discount crucifixes!)This reminds me of a joke...

Two nuns are driving in the Romanian countryside at night. It's a calm night with no rain, barely any wind.

All of a sudden, a vampire jumps in front of the car. The nun driving the car slams on the brakes, but hits the vampire anyway. The vampire jumps up, since he is undead, and walks to the driver side window.

The nun in the driver seat gets nervous. "What shall I do, sister?" she asks her companion. The other nun keeps her cool and calmly says, "Show him your cross. That will scare him off."

So the nun in the driver's seat rolls down her window, sticks her head out and yells, "HEY ASSHOLE! YOU DENTED THE FRONT END OF MY CAR YOU FUCKING MORON!"

Groves
06-15-2009, 07:59 PM
Isn't there a patron Saint of "Saint Usage" you can pray to about this?

cdcox
06-16-2009, 12:39 AM
I've googled the death out of this one (close to 30 minutes). I did not find one single confirmation of this ritual. In particular, google hits with (St. Anthony, lost, items, jesus) and (ritual) or (cut) or (separate) used the latter words (ritual, cut, or separate) in a different context than you describe.

My conclusions:

1. It is definitely not an official ritual of the Roman Catholic Church
2. It is not a widely-recognized myth among laymen

stlchiefs
06-16-2009, 12:45 AM
Born and raised Catholic, my entire family is, etc. My mom and others I know pray to St. Anthony for lost things, but I've never heard of cutting a Saint picture up. Is the separation supposed to encourage him to get to work or punish him for failing to help? :)

PS: God help your member in the bedroom if he doesn't do what your wife was expecting of him. Separation can be a terrible thing!

big nasty kcnut
06-16-2009, 01:47 AM
It's a mexican thing. A witchcraft thing.
Posted via Mobile Device

FAX
06-16-2009, 03:26 AM
Quick! Somebody find out who serves as the Patron Saint of Search Engines. Mr. cdcox needs him.

FAX

Jilly
06-16-2009, 11:52 AM
I love your wife. Sounds like my kind of girl....prayer and blindfolds in bed. I thought I was the only one.

Jilly
06-16-2009, 11:54 AM
As for your question:

I don't think it's about the ritual, but about the prayer. The ritual is moot to the actual prayer and the meaning behind it. Some people's prayers seem to work in that way and other's don't.

wild1
06-16-2009, 12:15 PM
this doesn't have anything to do with religion, it's a silly superstition like throwing salt over your shoulder.

oldandslow
06-16-2009, 12:19 PM
this doesn't have anything to do with religion, it's a silly superstition like throwing salt over your shoulder.

What is one person's superstition is another person's doctrine.

Fish
06-16-2009, 12:21 PM
Praying to a torn picture in hopes of conning dead saints into helping you find lost trinkets? This thread is so confusing.

KCChiefsMan
06-16-2009, 01:23 PM
you just need to pray to Saint Pioli, he knows how to fix everything!

Pestilence
06-16-2009, 01:26 PM
I have NEVER heard of this "ritual"... Born and raised Catholic

This.

bulldogg
06-16-2009, 03:02 PM
I have never heard of this. I am not sure that if you believed in his intervention, that you would risk the loss of said intervention on something important(say a lost job) over a set of lost keys or a trinket. If you are a believer than you must also believe that he would get mad over his pic being torn; then again, my Italian mom said the tattoo on my chest is sacrilege to him, and I don't think that way.

wild1
06-16-2009, 03:05 PM
What is one person's superstition is another person's doctrine.

apparently

Rain Man
06-16-2009, 03:07 PM
If the lost objects include lost games, I bet St. Anthony saw a big dropoff in business when Herm was fired.

Dave Lane
06-16-2009, 04:54 PM
There is always hope that some day we will outgrow such superstitions...

mlyonsd
06-16-2009, 05:04 PM
Have you asked her about getting info on future powerball numbers instead of someone's lost car keys?

They aren't lost until they've been picked.ROFL

mlyonsd
06-16-2009, 05:11 PM
Thanks guys, after reading through the thread tonight my wife just flashed me her tits.

Dave Lane
06-16-2009, 06:03 PM
As for your question:

I don't think it's about the ritual, but about the prayer. The ritual is moot to the actual prayer and the meaning behind it. Some people's prayers seem to work in that way and other's don't.

I noticed that of all the prayers I used to offer to god, and all the prayers that I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answer at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want. Half the time I don't. Same as god 50/50. Same as the four leaf clover, the horse shoe, the rabbit's foot, and the wishing well. Same as the mojo man. Same as the voodoo lady who tells your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles. It's all the same; 50/50. So just pick your superstitions, sit back, make a wish and enjoy yourself. And for those of you that look to the Bible for it's literary qualities and moral lessons; I got a couple other stories I might like to recommend for you. You might enjoy The Three Little Pigs. That's a good one. It has a nice happy ending. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood. Although it does have that one x-rated part where the Big-Bad-Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I liked best: ...and all the king's horses, and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again. That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no god. None. Not one. Never was. No god. - George Carlin

Pioli Zombie
06-17-2009, 09:56 PM
Here's a biblical thought. Try praying to Jesus.
Posted via Mobile Device

Chaunceythe3rd
06-17-2009, 10:29 PM
This reminds me of a joke...

Two nuns are driving in the Romanian countryside at night. It's a calm night with no rain, barely any wind.

All of a sudden, a vampire jumps in front of the car. The nun driving the car slams on the brakes, but hits the vampire anyway. The vampire jumps up, since he is undead, and walks to the driver side window.

The nun in the driver seat gets nervous. "What shall I do, sister?" she asks her companion. The other nun keeps her cool and calmly says, "Show him your cross. That will scare him off."

So the nun in the driver's seat rolls down her window, sticks her head out and yells, "HEY ASSHOLE! YOU DENTED THE FRONT END OF MY CAR YOU ****ING MORON!"


You forgot the end of the joke: ....and then the Blessed Virgin Mary smote the vampire and sent him right straight to hell with all of the rest of the protestants.

Jilly
06-18-2009, 01:46 PM
I noticed that of all the prayers I used to offer to god, and all the prayers that I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answer at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want. Half the time I don't. Same as god 50/50. Same as the four leaf clover, the horse shoe, the rabbit's foot, and the wishing well. Same as the mojo man. Same as the voodoo lady who tells your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles. It's all the same; 50/50. So just pick your superstitions, sit back, make a wish and enjoy yourself. And for those of you that look to the Bible for it's literary qualities and moral lessons; I got a couple other stories I might like to recommend for you. You might enjoy The Three Little Pigs. That's a good one. It has a nice happy ending. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood. Although it does have that one x-rated part where the Big-Bad-Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I liked best: ...and all the king's horses, and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again. That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no god. None. Not one. Never was. No god. - George Carlin

You're worse than a Christian fundamentalist who wants to "save" people. What's your stake in spreading this message constantly? Why is it necessary to you? I actually do wonder this....

Otter
06-18-2009, 02:16 PM
mlyonsd, we never knew ya

Saulbadguy
06-18-2009, 02:21 PM
You're worse than a Christian fundamentalist who wants to "save" people. What's your stake in spreading this message constantly? Why is it necessary to you? I actually do wonder this....

I don't think it's worse. It's the same, IMO.

I do have to say I see more religion crap thrown in my face daily than I do anti-religion, so perhaps his frustration is based on that.

Jilly
06-18-2009, 02:23 PM
I don't think it's worse. It's the same, IMO.

I do have to say I see more religion crap thrown in my face daily than I do anti-religion, so perhaps his frustration is based on that.

I honestly don't like that anyone crams anything down anyone's throat, really. Unless...well..... I digress...

My point is, I can see a religious fundamentalist, because they honestly believe that they are keeping someone from burning in the fiery depths of "hell"....but an atheist? What's the point?

Groves
06-18-2009, 02:24 PM
I've never understood the draw of fundamentalessness.

Saulbadguy
06-18-2009, 02:28 PM
I honestly don't like that anyone crams anything down anyone's throat, really. Unless...well..... I digress...

My point is, I can see a religious fundamentalist, because they honestly believe that they are keeping someone from burning in the fiery depths of "hell"....but an atheist? What's the point?

That's where I disagree. I don't believe it is a religious fundamentalist honest intention to keep someone out of hell.

Pioli Zombie
06-18-2009, 02:31 PM
That's where I disagree. I don't believe it is a religious fundamentalist honest intention to keep someone out of hell.

Really?? What are the intentions of every Christian person out there? Since you know, and all
Posted via Mobile Device

Saulbadguy
06-18-2009, 02:33 PM
Really?? What are the intentions of every Christian person out there? Since you know, and all
Posted via Mobile Device

What does that have to do with anything?

FAX
06-18-2009, 02:35 PM
Jesus charged peeps with spreading the word. So, for a lot of Christians, it's a required activity. Muhammad basically said the same thing except he suggested that, if peeps didn't agree to convert, they should be detached forcibly from their noggins. The Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, and Hindus really don't give a damn.

I'm not sure what compels an atheist to sway peeps to their way of thinking. Although, they do say that, "Misery loves company."

FAX

Saulbadguy
06-18-2009, 02:37 PM
I'm not sure what compels an atheist to sway peeps to their way of thinking. Although, they do say that, "Misery loves company."

FAX

Sociological phenomenon. Pretty much the same thing w/ religion.

mlyonsd
06-18-2009, 02:37 PM
Hey you guys knock it off. This wasn't supposed to be a thread about if you believe, or who's worse at peddling their views.

It's about blackmailing a Saint. Stay on topic.

Iowanian
06-18-2009, 02:40 PM
I don't know about that.........


I know some people who believe that a word with St Hubert, the Patron saint of hunters will help you return home safely........and find a lost deer.


You're not praying to the saint....you're asking them to intercede on your behalf....kind of like asking a mechanic to help diagnose what's wrong with your car, and ask his boss to get your car in earlier than 2 weeks because you've got to be in Greenbough Alabama by tuesday.

sedated
06-18-2009, 02:40 PM
I haven't read any of this, so I assume its devolved into a religious debate, but...

it made you feel better, didn't it? That's all any religion has to offer IMO. Delving into the "realities" of a religion or religious practice is pretty pointless.

If christianity was invented 20 years ago instead of 2000, it would be made fun of just as much as scientology is today.

FAX
06-18-2009, 02:41 PM
St. Hubert?

I thought he was the patron saint of lost political causes.

FAX

FAX
06-18-2009, 02:44 PM
Not necessarily, Mr. sedated.

I mean, if a peep cured peeps of horrific diseases (I mean really cured them) all over the place, was executed, came back to life again, then floated up into the sky on national tv, peeps would be pretty enthusiastic for that peep. There would be skeptics, sure. Just like there always are ... but it wouldn't be like Scientology.

FAX

Jilly
06-18-2009, 02:46 PM
That's where I disagree. I don't believe it is a religious fundamentalist honest intention to keep someone out of hell.

I think in their distorted worldview, that's what they would say. Although I'm interested in what your take is?

Jilly
06-18-2009, 02:47 PM
sorry, mylonsd.....forgive me? Or should we ask one of the saints to interceded? Because my suggestion would be St. Christopher....I like travelling.

Iowanian
06-18-2009, 02:55 PM
St Hubert, the Patron Saint of Archers, Hunters and other designation's symbol is located on the Jaegermeister bottle.


Hubert's representation is a stag bearing a cross or crucifix between its antlers: Hence the Master Hunter's (or Jagermeister's) Badge of Honor.

Jagermeister Bottle.In fact the bottle cap on an imported bottle of Jagermeister herbal liqueur is a duplication of the Master Hunter's badge. The bottle's label also has the same representation of a stag with a shining cross, suspended between the antlers, as the brand's logo. Surrounding the label is a German phrase, which loosely translated means: "This is the hunter's badge of honor, which he protects and wears as his shield, to guard, while in the fine and honorable profession of hunting; which also honors the Creator and his creations."

Literally translated, Jagermeister means Master Hunter in the German language. The term is applied to those who have rightfully earned the respect of their peers and regular citizens as well. German heritage requires much more of hunters than simply passing an eight-hour safety course before being issued a license. In that country it is a privilege to go afield with a firearm and the sport requires many seasons of apprenticeship.

Iowanian
06-18-2009, 02:56 PM
Mylons

you should pull out your St Hubert Pokemon, because he was also the Saint of Fur trappers, and you're seeking help in scalping a beaver.


Glad to have been of help.

irishjayhawk
06-18-2009, 03:05 PM
I have never heard of this ritual before, either.

Pitt Gorilla
06-18-2009, 03:28 PM
Not necessarily, Mr. sedated.

I mean, if a peep cured peeps of horrific diseases (I mean really cured them) all over the place, was executed, came back to life again, then floated up into the sky on national tv, peeps would be pretty enthusiastic for that peep. There would be skeptics, sure. Just like there always are ... but it wouldn't be like Scientology.

FAXOf course, 300 years from now, Scientology can write that some guy from their club did all of these things as well, as long as there are no videos etc. to demonstrate otherwise.

FAX
06-18-2009, 03:34 PM
Of course, 300 years from now, Scientology can write that some guy from their club did all of these things as well, as long as there are no videos etc. to demonstrate otherwise.

There's a lot of documented information available on Hubbard. His history is well known, Mr. Pitt Gorilla.

I agree that a myth can be constructed over time and that some peeps will believe almost anything. When you combine those two factors, a cult can be born out of nothing. All that's true.

Still, if you were to take the Jesus story and move it forward to the electronic age, it would be something far removed from Scientology. Bringing yourself back to life after being proven dead is a big deal, after all. All a peep would have to do is demonstrate that A) He really, really was dead and B) He really, really came back to life and, voila!!, you have yourself a religion.

FAX

Pitt Gorilla
06-18-2009, 03:45 PM
There's a lot of documented information available on Hubbard. His history is well known, Mr. Pitt Gorilla.

I agree that a myth can be constructed over time and that some peeps will believe almost anything. When you combine those two factors, a cult can be born out of nothing. All that's true.

Still, if you were to take the Jesus story and move it forward to the electronic age, it would be something far removed from Scientology. Bringing yourself back to life after being proven dead is a big deal, after all. All a peep would have to do is demonstrate that A) He really, really was dead and B) He really, really came back to life and, voila!!, you have yourself a religion.

FAXIf there were no cameras etc. to document the coming back to life part, how many people would have to witness the again living guy for people to believe it? I mean, if 30 people witnessed (or claimed to witness) the event, would people believe them?

FAX
06-18-2009, 03:59 PM
If there were no cameras etc. to document the coming back to life part, how many people would have to witness the again living guy for people to believe it? I mean, if 30 people witnessed (or claimed to witness) the event, would people believe them?

Exactly my point, Mr. Pitt Gorilla.

Back in the days of Jesus, history was preserved primarily through oral communication. Of course, the Jews of that time were extremely skilled at oral traditions (for obvious reasons) because it's all they really had easy access to ... later, of course, many of the stories were committed to writing. Still, to many modern peeps, the Jesus story warrants skepticism because there's no "proof" that any of it really happened as the Bible and other secular sources indicate.

Today, it would be a totally different deal. Modern medicine could and would prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that the peep was dead. If he were declared dead in a modern hospital, you can pretty much count on that being correct. As for the resurrection part, that could also be easily proven today through DNA.

So, it would be a matter of demonstrating A) death and B) life. In that order. Same guy? Yep. Was dead? Yep. Not dead now? Nope. Party over.

All I'm saying is that such a series of events would eclipse Scientology in terms of believability. There would still be skeptics (as there always are), but they would be challenged, to be sure.

FAX

Dave Lane
06-18-2009, 04:03 PM
I don't think it's worse. It's the same, IMO.

I do have to say I see more religion crap thrown in my face daily than I do anti-religion, so perhaps his frustration is based on that.

Thank you for seeing it. Also I do find it so hard to believe in the 21st century things like this can be believed, without any proof whatsoever, I almost feel obligated to throw another perspective in the mix. Its so rare that anyone speaks out directly against religion that I hope, perhaps vainly, that someone might at least think about their beliefs rather than blindly accepting them as "gospel"

Dave

Dave Lane
06-18-2009, 04:05 PM
Exactly my point, Mr. Pitt Gorilla.

Back in the days of Jesus, history was preserved primarily through oral communication. Of course, the Jews of that time were extremely skilled at oral traditions (for obvious reasons) because it's all they really had easy access to ... later, of course, many of the stories were committed to writing. Still, to many modern peeps, the Jesus story warrants skepticism because there's no "proof" that any of it really happened as the Bible and other secular sources indicate.

Today, it would be a totally different deal. Modern medicine could and would prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that the peep was dead. If he were declared dead in a modern hospital, you can pretty much count on that being correct. As for the resurrection part, that could also be easily proven today through DNA.

So, it would be a matter of demonstrating A) death and B) life. In that order. Same guy? Yep. Was dead? Yep. Not dead now? Nope. Party over.

All I'm saying is that such a series of events would eclipse Scientology in terms of believability. There would still be skeptics (as there always are), but they would be challenged, to be sure.

FAX

Hell I might be convert #1 if that happened! I'd love for the stories to be true. Sadly they are not.

Pitt Gorilla
06-18-2009, 04:07 PM
Exactly my point, Mr. Pitt Gorilla.

Back in the days of Jesus, history was preserved primarily through oral communication. Of course, the Jews of that time were extremely skilled at oral traditions (for obvious reasons) because it's all they really had easy access to ... later, of course, many of the stories were committed to writing. Still, to many modern peeps, the Jesus story warrants skepticism because there's no "proof" that any of it really happened as the Bible and other secular sources indicate.

Today, it would be a totally different deal. Modern medicine could and would prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that the peep was dead. If he were declared dead in a modern hospital, you can pretty much count on that being correct. As for the resurrection part, that could also be easily proven today through DNA.

So, it would be a matter of demonstrating A) death and B) life. In that order. Same guy? Yep. Was dead? Yep. Not dead now? Nope. Party over.

All I'm saying is that such a series of events would eclipse Scientology in terms of believability. There would still be skeptics (as there always are), but they would be challenged, to be sure.

FAXAs previously noted, if none of the 30 people were able to document the event in any way (other than witnessing it and speaking/writing about it; no DNA folks in the group) prior to the guy immediately leaving our planet, would folks believe these 30 people?

FAX
06-18-2009, 04:19 PM
You know, I have similar conversations with friends, Mr. Dave Lane. The thing that interests me most is when the atheist starts heaving the "blind acceptance without proof" ball over the plate. The fact is that a lot of spiritually-minded peeps are truth seekers and unafraid of being "proven" wrong just as non-believers want to be "proven" right. After all, in the end, it's all about truth.

I am very interested in science, for example, and follow the work being done in particle physics and quantum theory fairly closely (for a layperson). A lot of professionals in that field are taking a ton of stuff on faith right now simply because their theories cannot be proven in the lab. Yet, many of those theories are, for the most part, accepted as "science". It's interesting to me that many atheists find it easy to accept those theories while rejecting spiritual ones.

I have a feeling that, over time, we'll find that spirituality and science will eventually blend together and many of the core tenets of both "religion" and science will find common ground. I hope that I live long enough to see that happen.

FAX

FAX
06-18-2009, 04:24 PM
As previously noted, if none of the 30 people were able to document the event in any way (other than witnessing it and speaking/writing about it; no DNA folks in the group) prior to the guy immediately leaving our planet, would folks believe these 30 people?

I apologize, Mr. Pitt Gorilla, but I don't think I understand the question.

If you're saying that, if human witness were the only evidence, would most peeps believe that a particular, unusual, and assumably miraculous event occurred? If that's the question, I'd say probably not. It works both ways, though.

If 30 modern peeps told the Jews of Jesus' time that we just launched a rocket to the moon, do you think they would believe it?

FAX

Dave Lane
06-18-2009, 04:31 PM
Sir Fax I understand what you are saying and while I wait for most of the new theories to be tested I do find them interesting and really neither confirm or deny that they maybe real till some testing does validate or invalidate them. In the mean time I find them interesting much in the way that I find religion to be the most interesting phenomenon there is in the world.

The history and chronology of the religions is so fascinating to me I love it. Its the slow creep of legend and lore into a bonafide religion that amazes me. Its the greatest sales job ever. No product, no proof, nothing tangible in any way and it rakes in billions a year. Truly amazing.

mlyonsd
06-18-2009, 04:33 PM
Back to the topic and the bet, it looks like I'm screwed. In more ways than one:


From Heaven Help Us: Worrier’s Guide to the Patron Saints

Here’s What You Can Do:

This is a little complicated. Still, our Central American friends swear by it. Your job is to taunt poor Saint Antony [Hmmm. I always thought it was Anthony] into doing what you wish. First, find a picture of Saint Antony. A reproduction of a painting will do. So will a statue. Then, find a picture of the Christ Child. (Again, this can be a reproduction of a painting, or a statue.) Place the two pictures (or statues) next to each other. Make sure Saint Antony can see the Christ Child. Tell Saint Antony what you want from him. Then take the Christ Child away from him. Be resolute! Do not weaken, no matter how sad Saint Antony looks! You must withhold the Christ Child from Saint Antony until your wish is granted. Then, put them back together for at least twenty-four hours to thank Saint Antony for his help.


Knew I’d heard of that somewhere…never would be able to try it tho.

Dave Lane
06-18-2009, 04:37 PM
You're worse than a Christian fundamentalist who wants to "save" people. What's your stake in spreading this message constantly? Why is it necessary to you? I actually do wonder this....

Why is it necessary for you to respond to religious threads with belief? What's your stake in spreading this message constantly? Why is it necessary to you? I actually do wonder this....

Sword cuts both ways.

Dave Lane
06-18-2009, 04:37 PM
Back to the topic and the bet, it looks like I'm screwed. In more ways than one:

So what was the bet? Cuz I'm a big fan of sex acts for jesus...

stlchiefs
06-18-2009, 04:38 PM
It appears your wife posted her personal theory on another website. Don't settle for that as evidence. You're still in the game.

mlyonsd
06-18-2009, 04:42 PM
So what was the bet? Cuz I'm a big fan of sex acts for jesus...

I'd better not tell you because she's monitoring this thread and the payoff might turn out to be painful if she gets in a cross mood.

mlyonsd
06-18-2009, 04:43 PM
It appears your wife posted her personal theory on another website. Don't settle for that as evidence. You're still in the game.

Hmmm. Trust but verify. I like it.

FAX
06-18-2009, 04:45 PM
Sir Fax I understand what you are saying and while I wait for most of the new theories to be tested I do find them interesting and really neither confirm or deny that they maybe real till some testing does validate or invalidate them. In the mean time I find them interesting much in the way that I find religion to be the most interesting phenomenon there is in the world.

The history and chronology of the religions is so fascinating to me I love it. Its the slow creep of legend and lore into a bonafide religion that amazes me. Its the greatest sales job ever. No product, no proof, nothing tangible in any way and it rakes in billions a year. Truly amazing.

It is one of the great ironies of our time. Laughable, really. Especially when you consider that a good number of Jesus' statements as relayed in the Bible read like excerpts from the communist manifesto.

FAX

irishjayhawk
06-18-2009, 06:04 PM
You know, I have similar conversations with friends, Mr. Dave Lane. The thing that interests me most is when the atheist starts heaving the "blind acceptance without proof" ball over the plate. The fact is that a lot of spiritually-minded peeps are truth seekers and unafraid of being "proven" wrong just as non-believers want to be "proven" right. After all, in the end, it's all about truth.

It's more about backing up what one says.

I am very interested in science, for example, and follow the work being done in particle physics and quantum theory fairly closely (for a layperson). A lot of professionals in that field are taking a ton of stuff on faith right now simply because their theories cannot be proven in the lab. Yet, many of those theories are, for the most part, accepted as "science". It's interesting to me that many atheists find it easy to accept those theories while rejecting spiritual ones.

This is quite simple. The definitions between theory and Theory are quite different. Likewise, I might suggest there are two types of faith: faith and Faith. The latter goes beyond the testable into the supernatural whereas the former merely deals with the natural.


I have a feeling that, over time, we'll find that spirituality and science will eventually blend together and many of the core tenets of both "religion" and science will find common ground. I hope that I live long enough to see that happen.

FAX

I'd love for that to happen, but it will not happen because they are two different for compatibility. One is okay with being incorrect; the other is, simply put, not.

sedated
06-18-2009, 06:19 PM
Why is it necessary for you to respond to religious threads with belief? What's your stake in spreading this message constantly? Why is it necessary to you? I actually do wonder this....

Sword cuts both ways.

I always find it amusing how a religious person can share their beliefs with a non-believer and they are doing the lords work, sharing knowledge, or some bullshit like that, but when an atheist shares their views they are an oppressive ignorant nuisance.

I think there are few beliefs looked down on more than atheism.

Pitt Gorilla
06-18-2009, 06:55 PM
Back to the topic and the bet, it looks like I'm screwed. In more ways than one:That is just crazy. The juxtaposition of the pictures actually matters (one picture has to be able to "see" the other?)

sedated
06-18-2009, 07:16 PM
That is just crazy. The juxtaposition of the pictures actually matters (one picture has to be able to "see" the other?)

a thread about religion, and the fact that a picture has to SEE another picture is considered crazy?

Groves
06-18-2009, 07:50 PM
Of course, 300 years from now, Scientology can write that some guy from their club did all of these things as well, as long as there are no videos etc. to demonstrate otherwise.

Back in the days of Jesus, history was preserved primarily through oral communication.FAX

It's worth mentioning that Christianity is primarily a religion based on historical events. It's not based on one's experiences, or how much weight it has made you lose, or how much money you've gained, or how it makes you feel, or how much it "works".

It pushes all of it's chips in based on the life, death, and resurrection of an actual man, Jesus. Not accounts told hundreds of years later, nor oral traditions passed however carefully down. Historical writing of not only jews, but other history-writing empires of the day.

All of the gospels were written within 40 years of Jesus death, some of them much earlier. I think many people think that it was hundreds of year after the fact, but that view is simply misleading.

It's a religion that pins itself in history.

mlyonsd
06-18-2009, 08:03 PM
That is just crazy. The juxtaposition of the pictures actually matters (one picture has to be able to "see" the other?)

My wife can find stuff by just praying to the Saint himself. I think actually doing the picture thing should only be used in extreme circumstances.

From the book she quoted it sounded like you can do it for other reasons than losing an item.

Maybe at Nzoner's next bash the ritual should be used for a Chief's SB.

Of course I won't be anywhere near the ceremony and am probably damned for thinking it.

FAX
06-18-2009, 08:14 PM
It's more about backing up what one says.

This is quite simple. The definitions between theory and Theory are quite different. Likewise, I might suggest there are two types of faith: faith and Faith. The latter goes beyond the testable into the supernatural whereas the former merely deals with the natural.

I'd love for that to happen, but it will not happen because they are two different for compatibility. One is okay with being incorrect; the other is, simply put, not.

I think that's generally right ... although the difference between "faith" and "Faith" isn't distinguished by most peeps, it seems to me. Believers and non-believers alike, Mr. irishjayhawk, are caught up in some form of faith whether they recognize it or not. There are dozens of atheist scientists, for example, who have extreme faith in the hypothesis that consciousness itself is a quantum phenomenon. Totally unproven, yet compelling enough to warrant their (as yet unfounded) faith that the math will eventually prove out.

Nevertheless, my point is simply this; not all spiritually-minded peeps are brain dead. Some of them are seeking truth just as diligently as those peeps who splice genes or inject monkeys with Ebola for a living.

It's not uncommon for atheists to think of spiritually-oriented peeps as religion zombies and that's simply not always the case. So, critics who bash spiritual faith on the basis that the believers make "unfounded assumptions" appear to me to be no different than some laypeep calling out Hawking because his concept of gravity is silly and erroneous (of course, he had no idea there might actually be an 11th dimension at the time).

FAX

RippedmyFlesh
06-18-2009, 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by Jilly http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=5847890#post5847890)
You're worse than a Christian fundamentalist who wants to "save" people. What's your stake in spreading this message constantly? Why is it necessary to you? I actually do wonder this....
Why is it necessary for you to respond to religious threads with belief? What's your stake in spreading this message constantly? Why is it necessary to you? I actually do wonder this....

Sword cuts both ways.




These 2 are an example of why I am agnostic.

Thomas Henry Huxley said it better than I could ever

"I neither affirm nor deny the immortality of man. I see no reason for believing it, but, on the other hand, I have no means of disproving it. "

DaFace
06-18-2009, 08:44 PM
This has nothing to do with the conversation, but Rain Man and I drove by this thing today, and it creeped me out. So it goes here. Enjoy.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4585/kingscreen.jpg (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/kingscreen.jpg/)

Bowser
06-18-2009, 08:46 PM
This has nothing to do with the conversation, but Rain Man and I drove by this thing today, and it creeped me out. So it goes here. Enjoy.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4585/kingscreen.jpg (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/kingscreen.jpg/)

Never thought Willem DaFoe would get his own gigantic statue.

DaFace
06-18-2009, 08:48 PM
Never thought Willem DaFoe would get his own gigantic statue.

Fuggin thing is apparently 62' tall. Yikes.

http://www.solidrockchurch.org/king_ofkings.php

FAX
06-18-2009, 08:48 PM
I feel like there ought to be a giant life saver hanging from a rope up there somewhere.

FAX

FAX
06-18-2009, 08:49 PM
Good thing that giant, concrete sharks sink.

FAX

FAX
06-18-2009, 08:51 PM
He seems disturbed. Makes you wonder if some giant, concrete kid peed in the pool.

FAX

DaFace
06-18-2009, 08:55 PM
Interestingly, it was right next door to this place:

http://www.tradersworldmarket.com/

Which for no particular reason had at least 20 of these on its roof:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3393/3516445279_cc18b772d2.jpg

RippedmyFlesh
06-18-2009, 09:04 PM
This has nothing to do with the conversation, but Rain Man and I drove by this thing today, and it creeped me out. So it goes here. Enjoy.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4585/kingscreen.jpg (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/kingscreen.jpg/)

Ive had enough, Im getting out
To the city, the big big city
Ill be a big noise with all the big boys
Theres so much stuff I will own
And I will pray to a big god
As I kneel in the big church

Groves
06-18-2009, 10:31 PM
Which for no particular reason had at least 20 of these on its roof:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3393/3516445279_cc18b772d2.jpg

Everyone knows.

For pigeons: inflatable owls. For gigantic flesh-eating butterflies: inflatable giraffes.

What rock have you been living under?

bevischief
06-19-2009, 08:20 AM
I usually just sacrifice a few 12 ounce cans and sleep on and it might take few days of repeating before the item shows up...

Fish
06-19-2009, 09:06 AM
Interestingly, it was right next door to this place:

http://www.tradersworldmarket.com/

Which for no particular reason had at least 20 of these on its roof:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3393/3516445279_cc18b772d2.jpg

I heard about that place....

<object height="344" width="425">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/onZHpGYFPls&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>

sedated
06-19-2009, 09:32 AM
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/onZHpGYFPls&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>

oh shit, I fukn love those commercials on family guy