What is a "Moderate" ??

[petegz28]

According to some on here (IrishJayhawk), a moderate is someone who never says anything bad about Democrats.


Anyone else want to enlighten everyone on what a Moderate is?

[blaise]

A moderate is someone that claims they look at things objectively, but follows the party line 100% of the time while criticizing those with different opinions for being biased.

[FishingRod]

I'm mostly conservative economically but kinda liberal socially. Does that mix wash out to make me a moderate or Libertarian?

[petegz28]

A moderate is someone that claims they look at things objectively, but follows the party line 100% of the time while criticizing those with different opinions for being biased.

LMAO....huh?

If they follow the party line 100% how does that make them moderate?

For example:

If a Conservative supports Gay Marriage, how are they following the party line 100%?

Or if a Liberal is Pro-Life, same question?

Very general examples I know, but still makes the point I think.

[petegz28]

I'm mostly conservative economically but kinda liberal socially. Does that mix wash out to make me a moderate or Libertarian?

Well I think you and I line up similarly. I think it makes you Liberal on some issues, Libertarian on some issues, Conservative on some, Democratic on some.

Thus a moderate. IMO, anyway.

[Direckshun]

A label that means very little.

Like I said, I'm a liberal Democrat. If that label automatically discredits anything I have to say, that's the bug up YOUR ass, not mine.

Likewise anybody who thinks moderates automatically have a better grip on reality simply because they are not hardline left or right are similarly full of it.

[Gonzo]

A Moderate is a guy who bans you from the internets.

[petegz28]

A label that means very little.

Like I said, I'm a liberal Democrat. If that label automatically discredits anything I have to say, that's the bug up YOUR ass, not mine.

Likewise anybody who thinks moderates automatically have a better grip on reality simply because they are not hardline left or right are similarly full of it.

I agree but disagree. The problem is when people say "I am a Liberal Democrat" or "I am a Republican", that translates more times than not into "you follow party line 100% of the time cause it is your party", regardless of the issue or impacts.

[dirk digler]

I would say someone that is pragmatic and not an ideologue.

[blaise]

LMAO....huh?

If they follow the party line 100% how does that make them moderate?

For example:

If a Conservative supports Gay Marriage, how are they following the party line 100%?

Or if a Liberal is Pro-Life, same question?

Very general examples I know, but still makes the point I think.

It was a joke. Most people that call themselves moderate are full of BS. They say they're moderate but follow a party line.

[Direckshun]

I agree but disagree. The problem is when people say "I am a Liberal Democrat" or "I am a Republican", that translates more times than not into "you follow party line 100% of the time cause it is your party", regardless of the issue or impacts.

That may be what the individual people ACT like, but that's not necessarily what the label means.

One of the reasons why I think labels are absolutely useless. They are simply for those who need their worlds broken up into neat little categories.

There are scores of people here who will automatically disagree with patteeu or jAZ simply because they come from such clear hardlined positions. That's a real travesty, because they often make a good amount of sense and there's much you can learn from them (and they from you... those two tend to be more personable than their hardlining breathren).

[petegz28]

It was a joke. Most people that call themselves moderate are full of BS. They say they're moderate but follow a party line.

Well to a point all Moderates lean one way or the other. I don't believe there is anyone who falls smack-dab in the middle.

[petegz28]

That may be what the individual people ACT like, but that's not necessarily what the label means.

One of the reasons why I think labels are absolutely useless. They are simply for those who need their worlds broken up into neat little categories.

There are scores of people here who will automatically disagree with patteeu or jAZ simply because they come from such clear hardlined positions. That's a real travesty, because they often make a good amount of sense and there's much you can learn from them (and they from you... those two tend to be more personable than their hardlining breathren).

I think you would be better to say Political Parties are useless. If there were no Party, there would be no Party-Line to toe.

[Direckshun]

I think you would be better to say Political Parties are useless. If there were no Party, there would be no Party-Line to toe.

I disagree. Not only are political parties useful, people would still largely toe a particularly small number of lines of thought even if these parties weren't around.

[|Zach|]

StawManBuilder28

[Baby Lee]

Further muddying the waters, there's

Type A Moderate - conservative on some issues, liberal on others, thinks that sums to the middle.

ie, a fiscally conservative social liberal.

Type B Moderate - conservative or liberal on issues, but sees the other side sufficiently to bend.

ie, leads a socially conservative life, but doesn't think there should be laws requiring others to do the same.

Type C Moderate - actually leans pretty far and reliably in a particular direction, but despises the mouthpieces that would otherwise represent him.

ie, a hardcore conservative who thinks Rush is a blowhard and Hannity's an idiot.

[Pitt Gorilla]

I'm mostly conservative economically but kinda liberal socially. Does that mix wash out to make me a moderate or Libertarian?I think there are a lot of us like that. Neither party really fits this kind of thinking very well.

[dirk digler]

Further muddying the waters, there's

Type A Moderate - conservative on some issues, liberal on others, thinks that sums to the middle.

ie, a fiscally conservative social liberal.

Type B Moderate - conservative or liberal on issues, but sees the other side sufficiently to bend.

ie, leads a socially conservative life, but doesn't think there should be laws requiring others to do the same.

Type C Moderate - actually leans pretty far and reliably in a particular direction, but despises the mouthpieces that would otherwise represent him.

ie, a hardcore conservative who thinks Rush is a blowhard and Hannity's an idiot.

I am a little of both A and B

[Pitt Gorilla]

I agree but disagree. The problem is when people say "I am a Liberal Democrat" or "I am a Republican", that translates more times than not into "you follow party line 100% of the time cause it is your party", regardless of the issue or impacts.This reminds me of the conservative "rappers" video. Every point they make lines up with Republican talking points. It seems highly unlikely that a large group of people would agree with so many issues, both fiscal and social.

Why do so many people toe the line?

[petegz28]

Further muddying the waters, there's

Type A Moderate - conservative on some issues, liberal on others, thinks that sums to the middle.

ie, a fiscally conservative social liberal.

Type B Moderate - conservative or liberal on issues, but sees the other side sufficiently to bend.

ie, leads a socially conservative life, but doesn't think there should be laws requiring others to do the same.

Type C Moderate - actually leans pretty far and reliably in a particular direction, but despises the mouthpieces that would otherwise represent him.

ie, a hardcore conservative who thinks Rush is a blowhard and Hannity's an idiot.

I'd be mostly A & B with a little C at times.

[SBK]

A moderate is a person that is afraid to lead and refuses to take a stand.
Posted via Mobile Device

[petegz28]

This reminds me of the conservative "rappers" video. Every point they make lines up with Republican talking points. It seems highly unlikely that a large group of people would agree with so many issues, both fiscal and social.

Why do so many people toe the line?

Simple...Us vs. Them Syndrome, imo.


I think if Parties were eliminiated and people were forced to actually run on their own stance without a money machine to back them then things would be profoundly different and better.

[wild1]

it's often someone whose chief concern is that no one dislikes them

[petegz28]

A moderate is a person that is afraid to lead and refuses to take a stand.
Posted via Mobile Device

Disagree 100%.

[Direckshun]

Simple...Us vs. Them Syndrome, imo.

I think if Parties were eliminiated and people were forced to actually run on their own stance without a money machine to back them then things would be profoundly different and better.

I think you forget the fact that the parties are supported by the people.

People will naturally find some formal organization to rally around. That's why interest groups are so plentiful.

[dirk digler]

A moderate is a person that is afraid to lead and refuses to take a stand.
Posted via Mobile Device

Your view is dumb.

See I took a stand. :D

Seriously though I hear that alot about the fence sitting people in the middle and it makes me chuckle because I think most people that are strong lefties or righties are pretty much sheep because most of them can't think for themselves.

[Amnorix]

An endangered species, often spoken of but rarely seen, especially on politically related internet bulletin boards.

[petegz28]

I think you forget the fact that the parties are supported by the people.

People will naturally find some formal organization to rally around. That's why interest groups are so plentiful.

I understand that parties are supported by the people. Or used to be. Parties are now supported by SIG's and the Oligarchy.

Just like we used to be a Government of the People, we are now a People of the Government.

[Direckshun]

We are pack animals.

[Direckshun]

I understand that parties are supported by the people. Or used to be. Parties are now supported by SIG's and the Oligarchy.

Just like we used to be a Government of the People, we are now a People of the Government.

You have a few cute phrases but they sure don't mean much.

[wild1]

You have a few cute phrases but they sure don't mean much.

So he's got your vote then?

[petegz28]

You have a few cute phrases but they sure don't mean much.

They mean nothing to you because you find yourself having to admit I am right.

[petegz28]

We are pack animals.

You got a mouse in your pocket?

[FishingRod]

I think there are a lot of us like that. Neither party really fits this kind of thinking very well.

I think we need a new party. I'll bring the Captain Morgan.

[irishjayhawk]

Once again, pete completely botches comprehension. I gave a pretty good definition of a moderate in the other thread.

Of course, in his haste to prove he's a moderate by redefining the word to mean something else, he's misrepresented my words. Go figure.

[donkhater]

A moderate is one of two things.

1. Someone who doesn't have a clue about what is going on in the world today and votes according to popular opinion rather than expend mental energy or courage to state what they believe in. Sadly, these moderates were out in force during the last election.

2. Someone who leans one way or the other politically but refuses to be pigeon-holed with a label (Republican or Democrat) because it would be too embarrasing to admit.

[irishjayhawk]

For the record, I am not a moderate but rather an everywhereist (coined with the help of ClevelandBronco). I'm literally everywhere depending on the issue.

[irishjayhawk]

StawManBuilder28

ROFL

Amen.

[irishjayhawk]

Further muddying the waters, there's

Type A Moderate - conservative on some issues, liberal on others, thinks that sums to the middle.

ie, a fiscally conservative social liberal.

Type B Moderate - conservative or liberal on issues, but sees the other side sufficiently to bend.

ie, leads a socially conservative life, but doesn't think there should be laws requiring others to do the same.

Type C Moderate - actually leans pretty far and reliably in a particular direction, but despises the mouthpieces that would otherwise represent him.

ie, a hardcore conservative who thinks Rush is a blowhard and Hannity's an idiot.

If I were to abandon my everywhereist label in favor of a moderate label, I'd probably be a mix of all of those. But mostly I'd be A & B.

[petegz28]

Once again, pete completely botches comprehension. I gave a pretty good definition of a moderate in the other thread.

Of course, in his haste to prove he's a moderate by redefining the word to mean something else, he's misrepresented my words. Go figure.

I bothced nothing. I misrpresented nothing.

[irishjayhawk]

I bothced nothing. I misrpresented nothing.

I'm going to resist the botched joke in relation to your quote above. But you did misrepresent me:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=5843590&postcount=32

Not you. Or, Kotter, as it were. Incidentally, it seems you might just be a long standing Kotter persona.

But for an actual definition, I would say that a moderate is even-handed, bi-partisan and anti-sensationalist. A moderate often sees both sides of an issue. For example, why Obama hasn't come out and endorsed the Revolution outright. In other words, moderates often understand nuance much better than those further out.

None of those describe you. In fact, some are the exact opposite of your posting tendencies.



Also, can you point to where I said "moderate = only pro-Obama"?

And I even asked you in that post where you got the idea you have in the OP.

hmmmmmm.

[petegz28]

I'm going to resist the botched joke in relation to your quote above. But you did misrepresent me:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=5843590&postcount=32



And I even asked you in that post where you got the idea you have in the OP.

hmmmmmm.

Becasue anytime I say something bad about the Dems you immediately deem that as not being moderate????

Particularly when you ignore when I say bad things about the Repubs as well does this implication get reinforced.

[Pitt Gorilla]

A moderate is one of two things.

1. Someone who doesn't have a clue about what is going on in the world today and votes according to popular opinion rather than expend mental energy or courage to state what they believe in. Sadly, these moderates were out in force during the last election.

2. Someone who leans one way or the other politically but refuses to be pigeon-holed with a label (Republican or Democrat) because it would be too embarrasing to admit.I'll take false dichotomies for $200, Alex.

[irishjayhawk]

Becasue anytime I say something bad about the Dems you immediately deem that as not being moderate????

First of all, it's the terminology you use to express your opinions. Not only are virtually half of your posts straw men at best, but more importantly they seep with partisanship.

Second, I've merely commented on those extreme cases where you've let your partisanship fly freely. When called on it, you claim that I'm just upset about whatever you're making fun of or pointing out.

Particularly when you ignore when I say bad things about the Repubs as well does this implication get reinforced.

Please do point them out if I've missed any. I am not perfect.

[BigChiefFan]

A moderate is someone who uses a common sense approach and doesn't let a political affiliation dicate how they should views things. It's typically someone who is willing to listen to all sides of the argument before forming an opinion. The political definition is "political or social beliefs that are not extreme."

[BucEyedPea]

A moderate is someone who uses a common sense approach and doesn't let a political affiliation dicate how they should views things. It's typically someone who is willing to listen to all sides of the argument before forming an opinion. The political definition is "political or social beliefs that are not extreme."
Yeah a lot of people like the moderate label for the ( bolded ) reason but that doesn't really say anything meaningful. Many people today think what our Founders gave us is extreme because freedom is out of date.

[dirk digler]

A moderate is someone who uses a common sense approach and doesn't let a political affiliation dicate how they should views things. It's typically someone who is willing to listen to all sides of the argument before forming an opinion. The political definition is "political or social beliefs that are not extreme."

I agree and that is kind of what I said but you said it better.

I would say someone that is pragmatic and not an ideologue.

[BucEyedPea]

Define extreme? Our Founders were considered extreme in their day too.

[petegz28]

Define extreme? Our Founders were considered extreme in their day too.

Well, I think in the modern-day to be moderate means for the most part, not to toe one particluar line in the name of party. To be able to see that not one side has a monopoly on right and wrong. To not agree with an issue simply because your party or "guy" is the one supporting it.

We are seeing an amazing amount of hypocrisy over the last 9-10 years if not longer. Repubs who spent like crazy though they were supposed to be thrifty, and Dems doing everything they bitched and whined about for the last 8 years. As someone said earlier, Moderate is too listen to all sides of an argument and base your decision off of such using a little common sense and practicing a little of what is preached.

I mean our Founders believed in freedom for all, but all = property owning white males.

I think in the modern era we have allowed the D vs. R ordeal dominate every issue. And this is the way they want it. Neither party cares for Moderates because they can't bank on their vote.

[Direckshun]

I'm normally okay with pete's routine but it's getting tiresome, fast.

[petegz28]

I'm normally okay with pete's routine but it's getting tiresome, fast.

Sorry if I just can't quite cut it as a partisan hack like you. I just don't have it in me.

[irishjayhawk]

Sorry if I just can't quite cut it as a partisan hack like you. I just don't have it in me.

An irony bus hit me going 80.

[petegz28]

An irony bus hit me going 80.

Perhaps in all your wisdom you forgot to look both ways before you stepped into traffic?

[irishjayhawk]

Perhaps in all your wisdom you forgot to look both ways before you stepped into traffic?

No, it ran a red light, unfortunately.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Sorry if I just can't quite cut it as a partisan hack like you. I just don't have it in me.ROFL

Sorry, dude.

[Saul Good]

A moderate is someone who uses a common sense approach and doesn't let a political affiliation dicate how they should views things. It's typically someone who is willing to listen to all sides of the argument before forming an opinion. The political definition is "political or social beliefs that are not extreme."

People are confusing a moderate with a pragmatist. By people, I mean you.

[ClevelandBronco]

What's a moderate?

A pillowbiter who can't commit because he has no core principles..

[petegz28]

What's a moderate?

A pillowbiter who won't commit.

Thank you Rush Jr. A Moderate does committ. Just not to 1 side all of the time.

[ClevelandBronco]

Thank you Rush Jr. A Moderate does committ. Just not to 1 side all of the time.

You're young or stupid.

I forgive either.

[ClevelandBronco]

Thank you Rush Jr. A Moderate does committ. Just not to 1 side all of the time.

BTW: Commit to being a democrat and I'll have more respect for you. You don't have to be a Republican.

[irishjayhawk]

You're young or stupid.

I forgive either.

You're either old or stupid.

I forgive neither.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

A moderate is a person that is afraid to lead and refuses to take a stand.
Posted via Mobile Device

How about someone who despises both parties and thinks everyone just cares about themselves? A moderate nutjob?

[ClevelandBronco]

How about someone who despises both parties and thinks everyone just cares about themselves? A moderate nutjob?

Nope. Someone who isn't paying attention.

[petegz28]

You're either old or stupid.

I forgive neither.

You are a little insecure there, aren't ya?

[irishjayhawk]

You are a little insecure there, aren't ya?

No, merely proposing an alternative.

[petegz28]

No, merely proposing an alternative.

No, merely demonstrating insecurity.

[SBK]

What's a moderate?

A pillowbiter who can't commit because he has no core principles..

I was told this was 100% false, but I worded it a little differently.

Moderates are the smartest among us, which is why they're the ones who haven't made up their minds on who to vote for every election until they get to the ballot. ROFL

[irishjayhawk]

No, merely demonstrating insecurity.

Whatever you say.

[SBK]

How about someone who despises both parties and thinks everyone just cares about themselves? A moderate nutjob?

If you're going to cut it down, it's not democrat, moderate, republican, it's more like liberal, moderate, conservative. There's of course way more to it, but it's not moderates that change the world, or lead us to a brighter future. It's not moderates that make history.

[petegz28]

If you're going to cut it down, it's not democrat, moderate, republican, it's more like liberal, moderate, conservative. There's of course way more to it, but it's not moderates that change the world, or lead us to a brighter future. It's not moderates that make history.

Making history isn't always a good thing.

[irishjayhawk]

Thank you Rush Jr. A Moderate does committ. Just not to 1 side all of the time.

Making history isn't always a good thing.

Two insightful posts from pete, great job!

Though, the comments they were in response to were pretty weak if not outright laughable.

[petegz28]

Two insightful posts from pete, great job!

Though, the comments they were in response to were pretty weak if not outright laughable.

Do you ever make a post that doesn't involve slamming someone?

[SBK]

Making history isn't always a good thing.

Baaaa.

[headsnap]

A moderate is someone who agrees with you...

[irishjayhawk]

Do you ever make a post that doesn't involve slamming someone?

I wasn't slamming you.

[petegz28]

I wasn't slamming you.

I know...but you were slamming the people whose posts I was responding too.

[petegz28]

A moderate is someone who agrees with you...

Nope. Someone who agrees with me is right! (as in correct) :D

[BucEyedPea]

A moderate is someone of mixed views. Some left, some right. But they all still have a slight lean. And Independent is not necessarily a moderate. They're just independent of the two parties. I know Indies that are very conservative or very left wing or liberal.

[Taco John]

A moderate is a dope with no real political philosophy, whose only real interest is in feeling good about themselves however they can manage it.

Kotter is a good example of a moderate.

[patteeu]

I agree but disagree.

That's as good a definition as any. :D

[Amnorix]

A moderate is a dope with no real political philosophy, whose only real interest is in feeling good about themselves however they can manage it.

Kotter is a good example of a moderate.

That's pretty silly, actually, and suggests that the more radical your philosophy, and the more tenaciously you cling to it, the smarter you are.

So dopes are people like Truman and Teddy Roosevelt and the opposite of dope (whatever that is in your mind) would be whatever extremists you care to name, up to Adolf Hitler at the far end of the spectrum I guess.

[patteeu]

It was a joke. Most people that call themselves moderate are full of BS. They say they're moderate but follow a party line.

I'm a moderate supporter of Dick Cheney although I don't follow the party line all the time. I disagreed with him once when he said that he had misspoke. IMO, he didn't misspeak, he said something to intentionally make himself look like he wasn't perfect.

[HonestChieffan]

A moderate is a dope with no real political philosophy, whose only real interest is in feeling good about themselves however they can manage it.

Kotter is a good example of a moderate.

I have read similar things before. Do you really believe that?

I believe that we have many many people who are fiscal conservatives who would support and do support a number of social issues that some would call liberal. To say they dont have a political philosophy and are dopes is a bit extreme.

There are many conservative democrats and a goodly number of liberal republicans...liberal and conservative in this useage is more of a definition of where they fall on the line between left and right within their stated party affiliation.

Hard core leftists and hard core right do not in reality define either party and both parties have people who are more or less conservative or more or less liberal that the others in a given party.

[patteeu]

I disagree. Not only are political parties useful, people would still largely toe a particularly small number of lines of thought even if these parties weren't around.

I agree. In fact, I'm finding myself toeing the Direckshun party line on the issue of "moderates" and "political parties".

[patteeu]

I'm mostly conservative economically but kinda liberal socially. Does that mix wash out to make me a moderate or Libertarian?

It really depends on how your conservatism and liberalism manifest themselves. If by "liberal socially" you mean that the government ought to leave people alone on issues like abortion, drugs, and gambling you might be libertarian. If it means you want government sponsored abortion on demand, government monitored quotas for hiring gays, women and ethnic minorities, and a large social safety net, your not libertarian.

If by "conservative economically" you means you favor a relatively laissez faire business environment and a small government budget you might be libertarian. If it means you favor a balanced budget no matter how large the public sector is compared to the private sector, then you might not be.

A lot of people describe themselves that way but it can mean dramatically different things, IMO. I think of myself that way in a pretty libertarian sense, but there are friends of big, but fiscally-sane government here who could describe themselves the same way.

[patteeu]

So he's got your vote then?

Zing! LMAO

[BucEyedPea]

It really depends on how your conservatism and liberalism manifest themselves. If by "liberal socially" you mean that the government ought to leave people alone on issues like abortion, drugs, and gambling you might be libertarian. If it means you want government sponsored abortion on demand, government monitored quotas for hiring gays, women and ethnic minorities, and a large social safety net, your not libertarian.

If by "conservative economically" you means you favor a relatively laissez faire business environment and a small government budget you might be libertarian. If it means you favor a balanced budget no matter how large the public sector is compared to the private sector, then you might not be.

A lot of people describe themselves that way but it can mean dramatically different things, IMO. I think of myself that way in a pretty libertarian sense, but there are friends of big, but fiscally-sane government here who could describe themselves the same way.

Except the one factor that does unite the different kinds of libertarians, is the real ones embrace the non-aggression doctrine.( both left and right libertarians) I got that from the founder of the libertarianism himself, Murry Rothbard. In fact his article on how so many libertarians aren't really is still over on Lew's site. I also recently saw a transcript of an interview with Ayn Rand via that site where she disses libertarians. Objectivists aren't really true libertarians. She wasn't an advocate of the non-aggression doctrine. Now I know why the Randians were pro the Iraq invasion. Explains it to me. It's more that Libertarians ran with her economic philosophy than anything else.

[patteeu]

I'll take false dichotomies for $200, Alex.

How can a definition be a false dichotomy? You may disagree with his definition, but it isn't a failure of logic.

[HonestChieffan]

Seems we have a difficult time applying the labels becuse we all have differing views on individual issues. The hard core liberal would say that a fiscal conservative who is anti-drug and sees big government as a danger cannot be a democrat. Same as a far right wing conservative would deny that anyone who supports abortion or gay rights while holding a strong fiscal conservative stand cannot be a republican.

Thus my take away is that Republican and Democrat are seperate distinct labels that do not encompas the same definitions under the label of liberal or conservative.

The parties have to be more inclusive than the fringes of either party or they are doomed to fail. That is why we vote for people not parties.

[BucEyedPea]

If you're going to cut it down, it's not democrat, moderate, republican, it's more like liberal, moderate, conservative. There's of course way more to it, but it's not moderates that change the world, or lead us to a brighter future. It's not moderates that make history.

And it's through moderates that bad things don't get stopped. They get too reasonable where it borders on destructive. Hitler gained a lot of his powers because of the moderates.

[BucEyedPea]

People are confusing a moderate with a pragmatist. By people, I mean you.

I think you could consider a pragmatist a moderate in certain situations. I mean being a pragmatist can mean selling out too. Especially when it still won't achieve the desired goal.

[patteeu]

Except the one factor that does unite the different kinds of libertarians, is the real ones embrace the non-aggression doctrine.( both left and right libertarians) I got that from the founder of the libertarianism himself, Murry Rothbard. In fact his article on how so many libertarians aren't really is still over on Lew's site. I also recently saw a transcript of an interview with Ayn Rand via that site where she disses libertarians. Objectivists aren't really true libertarians. She wasn't an advocate of the non-aggression doctrine. Now I know why the Randians were pro the Iraq invasion. Explains it to me. It's more that Libertarians ran with her economic philosophy than anything else.

Most decent people, even those who aren't libertarians would say they support the non-aggression doctrine. The non-aggression doctrine doesn't preclude defense or retaliation against aggression. The sticky part is that we don't all agree on what constitutes "defense or retaliation against aggression".

I think you're wrong about Ayn Rand rejecting the non-aggression doctrine. In fact, she took a pretty radical (IMO) line against the use of force:

The necessary consequence of man’s right to life is his right to self-defense. In a civilized society, force may be used only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use. All the reasons which make the initiation of physical force an evil, make the retaliatory use of physical force a moral imperative. - Ayn Rand (http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=arc_ayn_rand_the_nature_of_government)

[BucEyedPea]

Most decent people, even those who aren't libertarians would say they support the non-aggression doctrine. The non-aggression doctrine doesn't preclude defense or retaliation against aggression. The sticky part is that we don't all agree on what constitutes "defense or retaliation against aggression".

I think you're wrong about Ayn Rand rejecting the non-aggression doctrine. In fact, she took a pretty radical (IMO) line against the use of force:

Not the quote I saw last week.

The point on defense I'd agree up to a point. The problem is they believe "war is the health of the state." It's true. So the state has lied a lot about many of the wars we engage in. With more power in the presidency expect it to get worse. Govts cause wars. Their peoples are less inclined to make war. So being easily swayed, or manipulated by the state on when we need defense ( and pre emptive war for progressive purposes is not defense) is not libertarian at all either. They are very skeptical about the state propaganda machine for war.