PDA

View Full Version : Chiefs our o-line should be...decent?


chiefbowe82
06-18-2009, 12:38 AM
LT-Albert-very solid
LG-Water-solid veteran
C-Niswanger-below average
RG-Goff-solid vet...i think?
RT-McIntosh-he's ****ing horrible

niswanger and mcintosh have more experience and have atleast settled into their roles. thoughts?

Chiefs=Good
06-18-2009, 12:53 AM
I think from waters right is very suspect... but well see...

pr_capone
06-18-2009, 01:11 AM
Niswanger simply cannot handle being Center in the NFL.

I would like to see Goff at C, then have Niswanger fight the scrubs for the starting RG spot.

BossChief
06-18-2009, 05:27 AM
Well, I bet 95% of posters will go research this to see if it is true, or just noob nonsense, but we had the 4th highest per carry average in the NFL! We also were far better in pass protection in the second half of the year rather than the first half...Far Far better! We gave up less sacks in the final 10 games than the first 6! Other factors figured into that, but the lines improvements figured in as much as the others.

Replacing Adrian "swinging gate" Jones with Mike Goff should allow us to run to the right without a defender meeting the runner 2 yards deep into the backfield, as often at least, and should be, at minimum, a push in pass protection.

Goff should also help Rudy and Damion because they wont be trying to do too much to compensate for Adrians lacking skills across the board.

Also, I wouldnt automatically rule out Colin Brown at right tackle. NE hit on almost every single linemen drafted while Pioli was there and the kid has a shot of surprising many if given a chance due to injury or incompetence.

Brandon Albert should benefit hugely from a full training camp and preseason (in which, he will be matched up against Jared Allen for at least a few plays) and I truly expect him to show glimpses of dominance this year. I bet he gives up 3 sacks or less all year and leads the way on many productive screens and sweeps reminding some here of, dare I say it, Willie Roaf! I truly think he will be that good, maybe not that good early on in the year, but watch out during the home stretch!

The previously mentioned predictions are only warranted if Brian Waters stays and plays like he can. He simply needs to be playing next to Albert if the kid is to reach his full potential sooner rather than later. A probowl LG is one of the most underrated players on a roster, and specifically to a young left tackle.

Rudy has taken alot of heat for his inability to play against the 3-4 defense and trouble handling bigger DTs, but he sure could get loads better practicing against it (or at least what we will call said "it") on a daily basis. He is an extremely smart linemen and is smart enough to make the line calls and is another player that will benefit alot from playing next to Waters, if he stays. I wouldnt write him off quite yet.

I just hope that Giaharic guy doesnt see the field, I have seen enough of him from my buddies love of the Bungles to know he doesnt have what it takes to be a starter for us, not even a backup imho.

We should be improved if not greatly improved!

LaChapelle
06-18-2009, 06:08 AM
WTF?

chiefzilla1501
06-18-2009, 08:54 AM
Well, I bet 95% of posters will go research this to see if it is true, or just noob nonsense, but we had the 4th highest per carry average in the NFL! We also were far better in pass protection in the second half of the year rather than the first half...Far Far better! We gave up less sacks in the final 10 games than the first 6! Other factors figured into that, but the lines improvements figured in as much as the others.

Replacing Adrian "swinging gate" Jones with Mike Goff should allow us to run to the right without a defender meeting the runner 2 yards deep into the backfield, as often at least, and should be, at minimum, a push in pass protection.

Goff should also help Rudy and Damion because they wont be trying to do too much to compensate for Adrians lacking skills across the board.

Also, I wouldnt automatically rule out Colin Brown at right tackle. NE hit on almost every single linemen drafted while Pioli was there and the kid has a shot of surprising many if given a chance due to injury or incompetence.

Brandon Albert should benefit hugely from a full training camp and preseason (in which, he will be matched up against Jared Allen for at least a few plays) and I truly expect him to show glimpses of dominance this year. I bet he gives up 3 sacks or less all year and leads the way on many productive screens and sweeps reminding some here of, dare I say it, Willie Roaf! I truly think he will be that good, maybe not that good early on in the year, but watch out during the home stretch!

The previously mentioned predictions are only warranted if Brian Waters stays and plays like he can. He simply needs to be playing next to Albert if the kid is to reach his full potential sooner rather than later. A probowl LG is one of the most underrated players on a roster, and specifically to a young left tackle.

Rudy has taken alot of heat for his inability to play against the 3-4 defense and trouble handling bigger DTs, but he sure could get loads better practicing against it (or at least what we will call said "it") on a daily basis. He is an extremely smart linemen and is smart enough to make the line calls and is another player that will benefit alot from playing next to Waters, if he stays. I wouldnt write him off quite yet.

I just hope that Giaharic guy doesnt see the field, I have seen enough of him from my buddies love of the Bungles to know he doesnt have what it takes to be a starter for us, not even a backup imho.

We should be improved if not greatly improved!

The reason we had the 4th highest per carry total is because we ran the ball so infrequently that teams were loading up against the pass. And I imagine a lot of that also has to do with Thigpen averaging 6 yards per carry.

The Chiefs repeatedly showed that they struggled to get yards when they gave a heavy dose of Larry Johnson and they had to move to the shotgun because their o-line was so poor at protecting Thigpen. Neither of these things bode well for the Chiefs. The Chiefs have a bright young star in Branden Albert and they have an overrated, but still solid guard in Waters. To the right of that is an oversized center, an over-the-hill guard, and a right tackle who will never have the leg strength to be effective there. Not a good sign. They can only hope Colin Brown turns into a solid tackle, because that's the only guy that can currently have any potential to help our o-line.

chiefzilla1501
06-18-2009, 08:55 AM
For that matter, does anybody know if the Chiefs have any plans for Herb Taylor? I would still rather move him to RT and have McIntosh play LT, where I think he would be a decent backup.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 09:22 AM
People tend to go a little overboard in their assessments of Niswanger and McIntosh.

The truth is that Niswanger is a serviceable Center.
The truth is Damion McIntosh played well down the stretch at the RT spot.

I think the Offensive Line will be fairly solid.

BigVE
06-18-2009, 09:33 AM
People tend to go a little overboard in their assessments of Niswanger and McIntosh.

The truth is that Niswanger is a serviceable Center.
The truth is Damion McIntosh played well down the stretch at the RT spot.

I think the Offensive Line will be fairly solid.



Yea, I agree I guess. Just depends on how you look at it. Left side we are above average to very good, center we are below average at best and right side we are average to below average. But, i would settle for an average O-line instead of a totally sucky line I guess.

boogblaster
06-18-2009, 09:37 AM
I think our O-line is just average or below .. we need O-line help ...

gblowfish
06-18-2009, 09:41 AM
This line still sucks. Waters and Fat Albert are the only solid starting caliber players in that lineup. Goff and Sackintosh are cast offs from San Diego. Nice Schwanger is a reserve at best. Cassel goes down with Croyle's disease by game four.

Our line knocked out 2 QBs last year. No real improvement this year. Thigpen, get ready to run around like Daffy Duck again this year....

Rooster
06-18-2009, 09:45 AM
For that matter, does anybody know if the Chiefs have any plans for Herb Taylor? I would still rather move him to RT and have McIntosh play LT, where I think he would be a decent backup.

I thought Herb Taylor held in own when given the chance.

Mr. Krab
06-18-2009, 09:49 AM
People tend to go a little overboard in their assessments of Niswanger and McIntosh.

The truth is that Niswanger is a serviceable Center.
The truth is Damion McIntosh played well down the stretch at the RT spot.

I think the Offensive Line will be fairly solid.
Niswanger can't get much, if any, push up front. He's a pretty big guy too. :shake:

Waters hasn't been anything to write home about either the last few years.

-King-
06-18-2009, 10:28 AM
This line still sucks. Waters and Fat Albert are the only solid starting caliber players in that lineup. Goff and Sackintosh are cast offs from San Diego. Nice Schwanger is a reserve at best. Cassell goes down with Croyle's disease by game four.

Our line knocked out 2 QBs last year. No real improvement this year. Thiggy, get ready to run around like Daffy Duck again this year....

Cassel is pretty mobile too. Id say top 5 starting qbs in terms of mobility.
Posted via Mobile Device

BarrySPAMAID
06-18-2009, 11:00 AM
I think this offensive line is going to look pretty good this year. I dont even want to say decent, because I think they will be a much improved unit. Take McCrapinmyshorts for example. He played pretty well in the second half IF anything last year, and a player like could very benefit from having a coach like Todd Haley who will trim the weight off of him. I personally would like to see Herm Taylor emerge as the new RT, but I think McDonaldtosh will be fine, IF he passes the test when he arrives at camp with a double cheese burger in his hand. I think Rudy is going to be much better this year, and Mike GOFF is the biggest signing we have had this entire offseason as far as I'm concerned. He helps at RG in MASSIVE proportion. Plus I'm sure he has a little chip on his shoulder for when we play the sparklers.

This line, along with Cassels mobility, should be pretty ok this season~!

BarrySPAMAID
06-18-2009, 11:01 AM
Niswanger can't get much, if any, push up front. He's a pretty big guy too. :shake:

Waters hasn't been anything to write home about either the last few years.

Waters only gave up ONE sack last season. Plus he has been to the pro bowl multiple times. I think we'll keep him,. and be better off instead.

shitgoose
06-18-2009, 11:02 AM
What about that kid from Mizzou we drafted? Any chance he gets on the field over Sackintosh?

BarrySPAMAID
06-18-2009, 11:06 AM
What about that kid from Mizzou we drafted? Any chance he gets on the field over Sackintosh?

Colin Brown was a 4 year starter at Mizzou. Although I feel he will need alot more time learning his role, I think we could see him compete for the starters roll by this time next year. Regardless, I think he a solid pickup for the 5th round.

Dont forget about Herbie too. I think Herb Taylor could emerge as our starter this year, but if McCrapinmyshorts loses a little weight, and gets serious, he did ok down the stretch last season, so we'll see.

DaneMcCloud
06-18-2009, 11:18 AM
For that matter, does anybody know if the Chiefs have any plans for Herb Taylor? I would still rather move him to RT and have McIntosh play LT, where I think he would be a decent backup.

Herb Taylor is not a right tackle.

BarrySPAMAID
06-18-2009, 11:19 AM
Herb Taylor is not a right tackle.

Sure he is. Sure he has been, and sure he could be. He has played many positions.

Source? Define? How? What???????????

DaneMcCloud
06-18-2009, 11:21 AM
The line has not improved.

Sackintosh still sucks (and is one year older), Niswanger is far better suited at right guard than center, there's no depth (beyond Taylor and that's just at LT), and it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Goff lines up on the left side because Waters is gone (which is a downgrade).

I seriously doubt that Colin Brown will be ready to start in the NFL anytime soon, although it's hard to believe that neither he or Richardson don't have the ability to beat out Sackintosh.

Mr. Krab
06-18-2009, 11:27 AM
Waters only gave up ONE sack last season. Plus he has been to the pro bowl multiple times. I think we'll keep him,. and be better off instead.
Listen Kool-aid boy ... Pro bowl means almost nothing, it's a popularity contest and many veteran players make it there for years on past performance instead of their current one.

Thigpen helped alot with the sacks last year, Waters allowed 4+ the year before. Hopefully a better offensive coaching staff will help Waters to return to form. Considering he's next to a great left tackle he shouldn't give up sacks.

We will keep Waters but he's not some kind of uber guard or anything.

BarrySPAMAID
06-18-2009, 11:33 AM
Listen Kool-aid boy ... Pro bowl means almost nothing, it's a popularity contest and many veteran players make it there for years on past performance instead of their current one.

Thigpen helped alot with the sacks last year, Waters allowed 4+ the year before. Hopefully a better offensive coaching staff will help Waters to return to form. Considering he's next to a great left tackle he shouldn't give up sacks.

We will keep Waters but he's not some kind of uber guard or anything.

I never said he was Krabby boy. My point is simple. Brian Waters is the best option we have until the 2010 draft. Why not keep him around, AND have Todd Haley whip his ass into shape, and put together a serviceable year?

Exactly. Pro Bowl means the players respect you too. So it means something.

BarrySPAMAID
06-18-2009, 11:34 AM
The line has not improved.

Sackintosh still sucks (and is one year older), Niswanger is far better suited at right guard than center, there's no depth (beyond Taylor and that's just at LT), and it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Goff lines up on the left side because Waters is gone (which is a downgrade).

I seriously doubt that Colin Brown will be ready to start in the NFL anytime soon, although it's hard to believe that neither he or Richardson don't have the ability to beat out Sackintosh.

FALSE!! Barry Richardson can and will play in the NFL. He is massive. He needs footwork. Which I look for this new staff to help him with. Rudy will be improved this year JUST my having Goff next to him, and for the last time, WATERS ISNT GOING ANYWHERE.

King_Chief_Fan
06-18-2009, 11:51 AM
. Thigpen, get ready to run around like Daffy Duck again this year....

ROFL

Micjones
06-18-2009, 11:53 AM
Niswanger can't get much, if any, push up front. He's a pretty big guy too. :shake:

He's not a natural knee bender and I think that helps him get stood up and driven off the ball more often than not. He's never been all that strong at the point, but I still think on the whole he's about an average Center. I think he'd be much more effective at Guard. Prior to last season he played very well in spot duty at that position.

Waters hasn't been anything to write home about either the last few years.

He was flat dominant at times last season.
He's not as consistently elite as we're used to, but he's probably still our best Offensive Lineman and an above average Guard.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 11:57 AM
Sackintosh

Damion McIntosh allowed just 7 sacks in 16 games last year.
That puts him in pretty good company with guys like Jon Jansen, John Tait, Gosder Cherilus and Damien Woody.

I think a healthy Mark Tauscher would've been an upgrade (as would a guy like Kevin Shaffer), but McIntosh was serviceable at that RT spot. In fact, given his ability to stay healthy and on the field he might be more valuable.

ChiTown
06-18-2009, 12:05 PM
FALSE!! Barry Richardson can and will play in the NFL. He is massive. He needs footwork. Which I look for this new staff to help him with. Rudy will be improved this year JUST my having Goff next to him, and for the last time, WATERS ISNT GOING ANYWHERE.

Help me out.

Barry Richardson DOES look like a specimen. How'd this kid look in college? Anyone?

I would LOVE to have young bookends with Albert at LT and Richardson at RT

Micjones
06-18-2009, 12:10 PM
I thought Herb Taylor held in own when given the chance.

Herb Taylor is most valuable to this team as a utility Offensive Lineman.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 12:11 PM
FALSE!! Barry Richardson can and will play in the NFL. He is massive. He needs footwork. Which I look for this new staff to help him with. Rudy will be improved this year JUST my having Goff next to him, and for the last time, WATERS ISNT GOING ANYWHERE.

Richardson seems to lack the mean streak he'll need to be an effective RT.
He's just not nasty enough and the rumor is that he simply may not have the desire to truly put his size and talents to good use in the NFL.

I hope I'm wrong about that.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 12:15 PM
Listen Kool-aid boy ... Pro bowl means almost nothing, it's a popularity contest and many veteran players make it there for years on past performance instead of their current one.

Thigpen helped alot with the sacks last year, Waters allowed 4+ the year before. Hopefully a better offensive coaching staff will help Waters to return to form. Considering he's next to a great left tackle he shouldn't give up sacks.

We will keep Waters but he's not some kind of uber guard or anything.

Okay, I'm going to retract my earlier statement.
People tend to exaggerate the play of Offensive Line across the board.

Only 8 Guards (Left or Right) in the NFL surrendered fewer sacks than Waters. And he wasn't playing next to Willie Roaf last year. Albert is very talented, but inexperienced and unrefined as a player. And if we could run the ball at all...it was to the left side of the line. Waters was a big reason why that was possible.

He's THE best Offensive Lineman on this team...with a bullet.
Though that may quickly change with Albert's progression.

Raised On Riots
06-18-2009, 12:23 PM
Cassel/Thigpen scrambling sessions revealed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spz8_rpE0e0

BarrySPAMAID
06-18-2009, 01:03 PM
Help me out.

Barry Richardson DOES look like a specimen. How'd this kid look in college? Anyone?

I would LOVE to have young bookends with Albert at LT and Richardson at RT

I think Barry Richardson put up some pretty solid numbers when he played for Clemson. I read good things last year about him, and although I dont think he progressed that well under Herms system, I think he has a chance to thrive. IF he can find the motivation. That was always the issue with him. He had no mean streak.

Richardson seems to lack the mean streak he'll need to be an effective RT.
He's just not nasty enough and the rumor is that he simply may not have the desire to truly put his size and talents to good use in the NFL.

I hope I'm wrong about that.

This! Ya, this is right up to par with everything I read about Barry last year. I remain hopefull that this new staff lights a fire under his ass. He's so damn big!! It's up to him.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 01:19 PM
This! Ya, this is right up to par with everything I read about Barry last year. I remain hopefull that this new staff lights a fire under his ass. He's so damn big!! It's up to him.

I'm always wary of Offensive Linemen that need that kind of motivation.
Hopefully the new addition of Colin Brown might help him become a self-starter.

Good thing is... McIntosh gives them both time to either grow into the role or for Chiefs brass to find yet another young guy to fill that role when the time comes.

Buehler445
06-18-2009, 01:25 PM
I'm always wary of Offensive Linemen that need that kind of motivation.
Hopefully the new addition of Colin Brown might help him become a self-starter.

Good thing is... McIntosh gives them both time to either grow into the role or for Chiefs brass to find yet another young guy to fill that role when the time comes.

I'm still skeptical about McIntosh. The injury bit, then the brutal suckage that occurred early in the year are two big strikes. It's hard to tell how much of his percieved improvement was from the scheme/Thiggy running for his GODDAMN LIFE.

It is still very vivid in my mind when John Abraham just thoroughly abused him. Abraham was BY HIM before he even took a step. He couldn't even get one step towards getting in the way. That's just absurd.

He has to produce for more than just a couple games to eradicate my skepticism.

I'm still holding out hope for BR also. IIRC he was LT at Clemson (which is what McIntosh was bitching about also) and has a LOT of the tools required. hopefully the motivation bit is not correct.

Frankie
06-18-2009, 01:34 PM
LT-Albert-very solid
LG-Water-solid veteran
C-Niswanger-below average
RG-Goff-solid vet...i think?
RT-McIntosh-he's ****ing horrible

niswanger and mcintosh have more experience and have atleast settled into their roles. thoughts?


LT-Albert-very solid------> A
LG-Water-solid veteran------> B+
C-Niswanger-below average------> D
RG-Goff-solid vet...i think?------> B- (hopefully)
RT-McIntosh-he's ****ing horrible------> D (hopefully)

GPA: 2.4 (C+)

(I was going to assign a factor of importance to the each position but decided to simplify things)

Raised On Riots
06-18-2009, 01:34 PM
Care to guess who else will be running for his life?

Mr. Krab
06-18-2009, 01:36 PM
I think we will see alot more wide open sets with just 5 lineman and 5 receivers. This is going to put alot of pressure on our Oline, especially our tackles. They better be ready.

jspchief
06-18-2009, 01:39 PM
I like all the talk about SuckIntosh maybe "improving".... how many years has he been in the league now?

Odds are, the guy has already peaked.

Raised On Riots
06-18-2009, 01:39 PM
I think we will see alot more wide open sets with just 5 lineman and 5 receivers. This is going to put alot of pressure on our Oline, especially our tackles. They better be ready.

ROFL Can you say "hit by garbage truck at full speed"?

Mr. Krab
06-18-2009, 01:41 PM
I like all the talk about SuckIntosh maybe "improving".... how many years has he been in the league now?

Odds are, the guy has already peaked.
True, but i think the move to right tackle will help alot. He's got a full year under his belt at RT now, so hopefully that is the improvement they are talking about. If you add an offensive system that adds a little unpredictability to it will add to the blocking improvement. *crosses fingers*

Frankie
06-18-2009, 01:45 PM
I like all the talk about SuckIntosh maybe "improving".... how many years has he been in the league now?

Odds are, the guy has already peaked.

GOOOOOO HERB!

Saccopoo
06-18-2009, 01:50 PM
Also factor in that we will be using tight ends to block A LOT more than what the Chiefs have utilized from that position under Herm. The right side of the line will be getting substantially more support from tight ends and full backs, which should help out tremendously. (I liked Tony a lot, but he'll never be known for blocking anyone at anytime.)

As well, it has been pointed that the conditioning of the Chiefs was sorely lacking last year. I think that we'll see an upgrade in terms of overall performance from all positions this next season.

Yes, we need to improve some of the positions on the line, but I'm willing to give them a pass this next year, see how the new regime handles them, coaches them and how they respond.

Offensive line grade at this point: Incomplete

Micjones
06-18-2009, 02:05 PM
I'm still skeptical about McIntosh. The injury bit, then the brutal suckage that occurred early in the year are two big strikes. It's hard to tell how much of his percieved improvement was from the scheme/Thiggy running for his GODDAMN LIFE.

It's not as though Thigpen wasn't sacked after the scheme change.
He was still dumped quite a bit, IIRC.

It is still very vivid in my mind when John Abraham just thoroughly abused him. Abraham was BY HIM before he even took a step. He couldn't even get one step towards getting in the way. That's just absurd.

Abraham's no slouch now. We're talking about a guy with 80+ career sacks.
Certainly you can't just surrender to even the best defenders, but we are talking about one of the league's premier pass rushers.

He has to produce for more than just a couple games to eradicate my skepticism.

He's definitely going to have to produce to keep the job.
Thing is, I doubt seriously that anyone will take it from him even if he struggles. We don't have much in the cupboard at RT and Herb Taylor isn't even an option.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 02:07 PM
I like all the talk about SuckIntosh maybe "improving".... how many years has he been in the league now?

Odds are, the guy has already peaked.

I'm not suggesting that he will or even can improve at this point.
What I'm saying, rather, is that he was pretty solid at the RT spot just last season.

Surrendering a sack basically every other game is pretty respectable pass protection.

Buehler445
06-18-2009, 02:34 PM
We don't have much in the cupboard at RT and Herb Taylor isn't even an option.

This is probably a dumb discussion to have, but fuck it. It's the offseason.

Why can't Herb fit at RT? HOLD ON! CALM DOWN! Let's start at the top.

1. It has been widely speculated that we will be a pass heavy offense due to the teams Pioli built and offenses Haley coached.

2. Herb excels in pass protection and isn't strong enough to plow the road for the run.

3. Goff excels at run blocking and there will be TE help over there to try to offset the weaknesses in the run blocking. (We'll probably run left anyway).

It seems to me that if Herb can provide significantly improved pass protection, he could provide the most value of anyone on the roster.

I know. I know. He's too small, but if we're passing all the time, it may be better than Sackintosh (who earned that nickname) and Richardson (whose form is bad from reports).

Just a thought.
Posted via Mobile Device

Frankie
06-18-2009, 02:35 PM
I'm not suggesting that he will or even can improve at this point.
What I'm saying, rather, is that he was pretty solid at the RT spot just last season.

Surrendering a sack basically every other game is pretty respectable pass protection.

It wasn't just the sacks. Most of the play-disrupting pressure came from the right side too.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 03:00 PM
It wasn't just the sacks. Most of the play-disrupting pressure came from the right side too.

He's not the only Offensive Lineman on the right side.
RG might've been the weakest link alone the line last season.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 03:03 PM
Why can't Herb fit at RT? HOLD ON! CALM DOWN! Let's start at the top.

Taylor's too light in the ass to play RT.
You need a road grader there and the kid tops out at 295. I'm guessing with Haley's conditioning program he's down to 285-290. He's also more of a finesse Offensive Lineman who lacks the tenacity necessary for playing there.

I know. I know. He's too small, but if we're passing all the time, it may be better than Sackintosh (who earned that nickname) and Richardson (whose form is bad from reports).

The numbers say otherwise. And if I'm not mistaken he was better overall in pass protection on the right side than he had been on the left (as a Chief anyway).

DaneMcCloud
06-18-2009, 03:15 PM
He's not the only Offensive Lineman on the right side.
RG might've been the weakest link alone the line last season.

Coupled with poor center and right tackle play and there's the answer as to why the Chiefs couldn't run a Pro-Style offense, score in the red zone or goal line situations.

And before the switch to the spread, Sackintosh was absolutely owned in every game, especially by John Abraham in week 2.

Before the Spread

Chiefs offense: 12.5 ppg
Opponents: 27.5

If you throw how the highest scoring games and lowest scoring games for both the Chiefs offense and their opponents before the spread, it looks like this:

Chiefs Offense: 10.5 ppg
Opponents: 27.5

I personally don't see much Pro-Style offense in store for 2009. Not with this offense line.

Buehler445
06-18-2009, 03:23 PM
Taylor's too light in the ass to play RT.
You need a road grader there and the kid tops out at 295. I'm guessing with Haley's conditioning program he's down to 285-290. He's also more of a finesse Offensive Lineman who lacks the tenacity necessary for playing there.



The numbers say otherwise. And if I'm not mistaken he was better overall in pass protection on the right side than he had been on the left (as a Chief anyway).

If we're going to pass all the time, wouldn't it make more sense to put a technique guy in there instead of a road grader if our road graders can't pass block?

If we're going to go 60% pass/40% run wouldn't it make the most sense to put the better pass blocker out there?

I'm sorry mic, I am not following which numbers/players you're referring to in the last part of your post.
Posted via Mobile Device

wasi
06-18-2009, 03:30 PM
I haven't seen any mention of it in any reports this offseason, but does anyone know if we are still going with a zone-blocking scheme this season? That was one of the changes from Solari to Gailey, but with all the change that has occurred otherwise I don't know if Gailey still being here means we keep that scheme. I think our Oline coach came over from the Bucs, so anyone know what system they ran in the past?

Are the FA pickups (the centre ,Guici or whatever and Goff) and the draftee Brown anything like the guys we picked last year to play in the zone scheme?

DaneMcCloud
06-18-2009, 03:32 PM
I'm sorry mic, I am not following which numbers/players you're referring to in the last part of your post.
Posted via Mobile Device

The "numbers" are skewed by the fact that the Chiefs were in the shotgun spread 85% of the time after game six. There isn't one team in the league that would prefer Sackintosh over their current right tackles. Not one.

If the Chiefs had remained in a Pro-Style offense, they'd have gone through 15 QB's last year.

Guaranteed.

Halfcan
06-18-2009, 03:44 PM
We could have upgraded the O line with a Stud in the draft-but chose to Reach for a player ranked in the lower 20's-Go figure??

Micjones
06-18-2009, 03:56 PM
Coupled with poor center and right tackle play and there's the answer as to why the Chiefs couldn't run a Pro-Style offense, score in the red zone or goal line situations.

And before the switch to the spread, Sackintosh was absolutely owned in every game, especially by John Abraham in week 2.

I think that oversimplifies the plight of the '08 Chiefs offense.

You must also factor in a Head Coach who wanted to play it close to the vest, a QB who struggled with playing from under Center AND a RB who missed 4 games and left the team without a legitimate every-down back.

And again, 7 sacks surrendered in 16 games is absolutely serviceable for the RT position. Some posters here at CP were salivating over Levi Jones coming to Kansas City and he gave up 5.5 in only 11 games.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 04:01 PM
If we're going to pass all the time, wouldn't it make more sense to put a technique guy in there instead of a road grader if our road graders can't pass block?

Taylor's more than just undersized.
He's doesn't bring the kind of physicality to the Right Tackle position that you need either. He'd work as a stop-gap perhaps, but I don't think he's a long-term solution there.

I'm sorry mic, I am not following which numbers/players you're referring to in the last part of your post.
Posted via Mobile Device

The number of sacks surrendered by McIntosh make him a middling RT in terms of pass protection. IIRC, he gave up more sacks at the LT spot early in his Chiefs tenure.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 04:07 PM
The "numbers" are skewed by the fact that the Chiefs were in the shotgun spread 85% of the time after game six.

He was sacked nearly twice per game over the last 10 games of the season.

There isn't one team in the league that would prefer Sackintosh over their current right tackles. Not one.

I beg to differ.
Levi Brown was a sieve at RT for the Cardinals last season.
McIntosh outplayed him by a mile...

I think he could also win a starting job on about 5 other teams.
Snyder sucked the big one in San Fran. He could play in front of him (at RT)...in a heartbeat.

Hell Jason Peters gave up 4 more sacks on the left side and went to the Pro Bowl for crying out loud. IIRC, McIntosh has surrendered fewer sacks at LT since he joined this team.

He's a serviceable RT. The position could've been upgraded in the off-season with a couple of players, but to pretend that he's just the bane of this Offensive Line is a joke. Bear in mind that he played next to Adrian Jones.

FAX
06-18-2009, 04:08 PM
I'm not sold on our o-line. Not one bit. Especially if we keep Niswanger (sp?) at center and Sackintosh at RT.

We have a lot of work to do on the o-line to get it back to where it needs to be. Of course, I'm one of those who believes that you build a team "inside-out" and by fielding a sub-par line, you hold back the development of your skill players, so I'm probably a little jaded. I just haven't seen any significant or sufficient personnel activity intended to correct our problems and it worries me. Our o-line is one of the weakest areas on the team, in my opinion.

FAX

DaneMcCloud
06-18-2009, 04:10 PM
I think that oversimplifies the plight of the '08 Chiefs offense.

You must also factor in a Head Coach who wanted to play it close to the vest, a QB who struggled with playing from under Center AND a RB who missed 4 games and left the team without a legitimate every-down back.

And again, 7 sacks surrendered in 16 games is absolutely serviceable for the RT position. Some posters here at CP were salivating over Levi Jones coming to Kansas City and he gave up 5.5 in only 11 games.

Mic, you're missing the point: McIntosh is horrible. If he would have had to block in a Pro-Style offense instead of with his QB seven yards deep, the Chiefs would have gone through 15 QB's instead of four.

The team couldn't run in the Red Zone or on the goal line. I don't give a crap about McIntosh's sack numbers after they switched to the Spread. He flat out could not block his man.

The Chiefs couldn't run the ball. The Chiefs couldn't eat up the clock. McIntosh could not block without the QB seven yards deep. The Carolina, Atlanta, Raiders & Patriots games proves that without any doubt, he shouldn't be on the field in a Pro-Style offense.

McIntosh is awful. F-. Defending his play is more insane than saying that Thigpen should be the starting QB. This team won 2 games last year, mainly due to the offense line NOT being able to block or sustain a drive.

And this team will again suffer because of his poor play.

DaneMcCloud
06-18-2009, 04:12 PM
He was sacked nearly twice per game over the last 10 games of the season.



I beg to differ.
Levi Brown was a sieve at RT for the Cardinals last season.
McIntosh outplayed him by a mile...

I think he could also win a starting job on about 5 other teams.
Snyder sucked the big one in San Fran. He could play in front of him (at RT)...in a heartbeat.

Hell Jason Peters gave up 4 more sacks on the left side and went to the Pro Bowl for crying out loud. IIRC, McIntosh has surrendered fewer sacks at LT since he joined this team.

He's a serviceable RT. The position could've been upgraded in the off-season with a couple of players, but to pretend that he's just the bane of this Offensive Line is a joke. Bear in mind that he played next to Adrian Jones.

Mic, you need to WATCH the games, not look at stats in this instance.

Do you think there's any chance in the world that ANY team would give the Chiefs a 1st round pick for Sackintosh?

FAX
06-18-2009, 04:22 PM
It's understandable. I mean, if you look at the numbers, you would think that the line improved in the last half of last season. There were just too many variables involved to draw that conclusion, though.

The quasi-spread that we started running took a lot of pressure off the line - stats-wise. Some peeps will tell you that the spread puts more responsibility on a lineman and in some ways that's true, but in our case, it allowed that additional second or so for the quarterback to get rid of the ball. Ergo, the sack numbers were, in large measure, a reflection of the scheme.

As for the rush, we were pitiful. Especially when the defense knew it was coming. Not to mention the fact that we had real difficulty getting outside on stretch plays, screens, etc. Unless Haley's conditioning requirements make a bigger difference than I realize, if we put the same, basic line out there this year, I don't see why we should expect a different result.

FAX

Raised On Riots
06-18-2009, 04:24 PM
Coupled with poor center and right tackle play and there's the answer as to why the Chiefs couldn't run a Pro-Style offense, score in the red zone or goal line situations.

And before the switch to the spread, Sackintosh was absolutely owned in every game, especially by John Abraham in week 2.

Before the Spread

Chiefs offense: 12.5 ppg
Opponents: 27.5

If you throw how the highest scoring games and lowest scoring games for both the Chiefs offense and their opponents before the spread, it looks like this:

Chiefs Offense: 10.5 ppg
Opponents: 27.5

I personally don't see much Pro-Style offense in store for 2009. Not with this offense line.

But...but...we've got Pistol 2.0!!! We're on our way!!!:doh!:

-King-
06-18-2009, 04:29 PM
Whoa Dane, a few months ago you were saying Thigpen was the reason we switched from pro style, now you're saying it's because of the line? Make up your mind man!

Micjones
06-18-2009, 04:32 PM
Mic, you're missing the point: McIntosh is horrible. If he would have had to block in a Pro-Style offense instead of with his QB seven yards deep, the Chiefs would have gone through 15 QB's instead of four.

Chiefs fans are often notorious for circulating bad information.
It really is shameful.

Since joining this team in 2007 Damion McIntosh has surrendered 14.5 sacks.
In his first season the team did, in fact, run a pro-style offense. And at the harder of the two Tackle spots to play he gave up just 7.5 sacks.

He's not as adept at run-blocking, but he's ALWAYS been a serviceable pass protector. He's given up, on the average, less than 5 sacks per season for his CAREER.

The Chiefs couldn't run the ball. The Chiefs couldn't eat up the clock. McIntosh could not block without the QB seven yards deep. The Carolina, Atlanta, Raiders & Patriots games proves that without any doubt, he shouldn't be on the field in a Pro-Style offense.

I'll concede the fact that he isn't a great run-blocker. He never has been.

The bit about him struggling to block in a pro-style offense is entirely off base. He blocked in a pro-style offense just one season prior when the Chiefs had a more conventional look. And he surrendered just a half sack more than he did last season. You can't ignore his past in your assessment of his play last year.

McIntosh is awful. F-. Defending his play is more insane than saying that Thigpen should be the starting QB. This team won 2 games last year, mainly due to the offense line NOT being able to block or sustain a drive.

And this team will again suffer because of his poor play.

And that had nothing at all to do with our defensive-minded Head Coach, instability in the backfield, or the QB himself who struggled playing under Center?

Mmmmkay...

Saccopoo
06-18-2009, 04:32 PM
I'm with Dane - to a certain degree. But Mic's points are valid as well. The majority of the pressure did come from the right side of the line, and per my memory, that's where the take out hits on Croyle and Huard originated from. However, our RG position was bad last year as well, and we didn't have much in the way of blocking support from our tight ends. (Tony has never blocked, and Cottam was a rookie that didn't see much playing time regardless.) As well, besides Cox, who performed admirably as a rookie at fullback, was still a rookie, we just didn't have much in the way of support from tailbacks in the passing game. In addition, we were starting a QB who, at least at that point didn't belong in the NFL as a starting QB, and every defense that we played knew it and was sending the dogs in on almost every play. In that scenario, I would expect that any RT in the league would be abused. (And John Abraham abuses almost everyone he goes against. The guy is one of the most consistent, dominant pass rushers in the league.)

This season, we have a QB, TE support, a healthy top flight RB, and a coach who understands what is required in a passing game. There are question marks about our line, but I'm willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt, at least for a little while. The situation last year was about as bad as it could get in terms of being an offensive lineman in the NFL. There is only one direction for the o-line to go at this point.

Raised On Riots
06-18-2009, 04:35 PM
Whoa Dane, a few months ago you were saying Thigpen was the reason we switched from pro style, now you're saying it's because of the line? Make up your mind man!

It's both, and nothing has changed.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 04:37 PM
Mic, you need to WATCH the games, not look at stats in this instance.

I can't remember the last Chiefs game I didn't watch.
I SAW the guy play. He struggled early, but played quite well down the stretch.
And remember he was playing a new position for the first time in his career if memory serves...

And please don't start with the "stats are meaningless" spiel.
They're official performance records. And I'm not just using one stat line...
I'm using several. To thumb your nose at all of that information is ridiculous.

Pass protection has been McIntosh's strong suit throughout his career.
If there's anything he can do... It's pass block.

I'm not suggesting that he's Anthony Munoz.
I'm hoping that Chiefs fans will STOP suggesting that he's Jordan Black.

Do you think there's any chance in the world that ANY team would give the Chiefs a 1st round pick for Sackintosh?

Not 30 minutes ago you argued that he couldn't start over any other RT in the NFL. That's nonsense. Somewhere in the last 28 minutes you've gone from that to kicking around the idea of whether or not he'd fetch a 1st Rounder? That's quite the jump.

All I'm suggesting to you is that he's a serviceable Offensive Tackle (in terms of pass protection) in the NFL. Now, if you'd like to argue his merits in the running game...I will offer no argument whatsoever.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 04:40 PM
And let's not forget that Bill Muir is one of the best in the business.

DaneMcCloud
06-18-2009, 04:41 PM
Whoa Dane, a few months ago you were saying Thigpen was the reason we switched from pro style, now you're saying it's because of the line? Make up your mind man!

Thigpen AND the line.

That was mentioned many times.

Thank you.

DaneMcCloud
06-18-2009, 04:47 PM
I can't remember the last Chiefs game I didn't watch.

You know, Mic, you and I go through this every single time we have a discussion. You just don't follow your own line of thinking, nor can you follow mine.

I wasn't referring to Chiefs games. You mentioned Levi Jones. Did you watch Levi Jones?

And please don't start with the "stats are meaningless" spiel.

Excuse me but McIntosh SUCKED before the Spread. John Abraham had him REELING in the Atlanta game. He jumped offsides because he couldn't handle him more than twice.

Pass protection has been McIntosh's strong suit throughout his career.
If there's anything he can do... It's pass block.

Which is one of the reasons for switching to the Spread. It played to his strengths. Of course, you'll also recognize that the Chiefs couldn't run the ball or sustain a drive either before or after the switch.

Hmmm.


Not 30 minutes ago you argued that he couldn't start over any other RT in the NFL. That's nonsense.

Really? Name any RT in the league that McIntosh would start in front of this season. Just one.

Somewhere in the last 28 minutes you've gone from that to kicking around the idea of whether or not he'd fetch a 1st Rounder? That's quite the jump.

YOU brought up Jason Peters, who was just traded from Buffalo to Philly for a 1st rounder.


All I'm suggesting to you is that he's a serviceable Offensive Tackle (in terms of pass protection) in the NFL. Now, if you'd like to argue his merits in the running game...I will offer no argument whatsoever.

There's more to playing right tackle than pass protection. As a matter of fact, the running game is FAR more important in terms of a right tackle, as the right side is the power running, down-hill side.

McIntosh can't cut it. And your excuses don't cut it, either.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 05:12 PM
You know, Mic, you and I go through this every single time we have a discussion. You just don't follow your own line of thinking, nor can you follow mine.

Not to any fault of my own.
Try being more specific in your replies.

You made a statement that suggested I'm NOT watching the games and you went on to talk about McIntosh. Sue me for thinking you might've been referring to him instead of Jones.

I wasn't referring to Chiefs games. You mentioned Levi Jones. Did you watch Levi Jones?

Not nearly as often as I saw McIntosh play.

Excuse me but McIntosh SUCKED before the Spread. John Abraham had him REELING in the Atlanta game. He jumped offsides because he couldn't handle him more than twice.

Yeah, that John Abraham (with his 84 career sacks) is a bum.
He only had 16.5 last season.
:rolleyes:

Is that REALLY the most compelling piece of evidence you have Dane?

Really? Name any RT in the league that McIntosh would start in front of this season. Just one.

I'll do you one better and give you two.
Adam Snyder and Levi Brown.
I work with a 49'ers fan and he'll gladly share with you just what he thinks about Mr. Snyder. Brown's only advantage over D-Mac is that he's quite a bit younger. He struggles in pass protection. That's part of the reason why Joe Thomas was considered ahead of him in his draft class.

YOU brought up Jason Peters, who was just traded from Buffalo to Philly for a 1st rounder.

That's because he's clearly a more complete Tackle and plays the more important Tackle position.

I also brought up the fact that McIntosh surrendered 4.5 fewer sacks than did Peters.

There's more to playing right tackle than pass protection. As a matter of fact, the running game is FAR more important in terms of a right tackle, as the right side is the power running, down-hill side.

Agreed. And again I offer no argument as to his merits as a run-blocker.
But the argument was over how effective he is in the passing game.

McIntosh can't cut it. And your excuses don't cut it, either.

Which is why he's been a multi-year starter everywhere he's gone his entire career.
Got it.

JASONSAUTO
06-18-2009, 05:17 PM
People tend to go a little overboard in their assessments of Niswanger and McIntosh.

The truth is that Niswanger is a serviceable Center.
The truth is Damion McIntosh played well down the stretch at the RT spot.

I think the Offensive Line will be fairly solid.

I hate macintosh but he did have the best block of the year last year. two guys on the same play 10-15 yards down field IIRC. beautiful

DaneMcCloud
06-18-2009, 05:18 PM
Not to any fault of my own.
Try being more specific in your replies.

You made a statement that suggested I'm NOT watching the games and you went on to talk about McIntosh. Sue me for thinking you might've been referring to him instead of Jones.



Not nearly as often as I saw McIntosh play.



Yeah, that John Abraham (with his 84 career sacks) is a bum.
He only had 16.5 last season.
:rolleyes:

Is that REALLY the most compelling piece of evidence you have Dane?



I'll do you one better and give you two.
Adam Snyder and Levi Brown.
I work with a 49'ers fan and he'll gladly share with you just what he thinks about Mr. Snyder. Brown's only advantage over D-Mac is that he's quite a bit younger. He struggles in pass protection. That's part of the reason why Joe Thomas was considered ahead of him in his draft class.



That's because he's clearly a more complete Tackle and plays the more important Tackle position.

I also brought up the fact that McIntosh surrendered 4.5 fewer sacks than did Peters.



Agreed. And again I offer no argument as to his merits as a run-blocker.
But the argument was over how effective he is in the passing game.



Which is why he's been a multi-year starter everywhere he's gone his entire career.
Got it.

Now I've seen everything on Chiefsplanet.

I'm sorry, but how you can defend Damion McIntosh is far beyond my ability to comprehend.

Good luck with that.

Raised On Riots
06-18-2009, 05:18 PM
I liked his total career highlight reel too.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 05:19 PM
I hate macintosh but he did have the best block of the year last year. two guys on the same play 10-15 yards down field IIRC. beautiful

I honestly don't understand all of the hatred Chiefs fans have for McIntosh.
The guy's made 31 of 32 starts as a Chief, has been nothing but a team player, has kept his nose clean, and has been fairly dependable (at least as a pass blocker) on the field.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 05:24 PM
Now I've seen everything on Chiefsplanet.

I'm sorry, but how you can defend Damion McIntosh is far beyond my ability to comprehend.

Good luck with that.

It's really not hard to make a case for him being a decent football player.
Having had Willie Roaf and Will Shields on the same Offensive Line has done something to the psyche of the average Chiefs fan. Much like having Tony Gonzalez for most of his career contributed to us overvaluing the Tight End position.

JASONSAUTO
06-18-2009, 05:36 PM
I honestly don't understand all of the hatred Chiefs fans have for McIntosh.
The guy's made 31 of 32 starts as a Chief, has been nothing but a team player, has kept his nose clean, and has been fairly dependable (at least as a pass blocker) on the field.

meh i still dont like him, sorry

Micjones
06-18-2009, 05:41 PM
meh i still dont like him, sorry

ROFL

You're entitled.
I was just saying...

With all of the flack that players like LJ and Dwayne Bowe catch for their larger-than-life personalities and off-the-field behavior... I would think a guy like D-Mac would be loved here in Chiefs Country.

DaneMcCloud
06-18-2009, 05:44 PM
ROFL

You're entitled.
I was just saying...

With all of the flack that players like LJ and Dwayne Bowe catch for their larger-than-life personalities and off-the-field behavior... I would think a guy like D-Mac would be loved here in Chiefs Country.

Being a K-State guy, you'd think people would love him.

I guess it really comes down to performance on the field. And his mistakes are probably more visible to the casual fan than most (offsides, missed blocks, sacks, etc.).

That said, I'm sure he's a nice guy.

I just think he should find another line of work.

Raised On Riots
06-18-2009, 05:51 PM
Being a K-State guy, you'd think people would love him.

I guess it really comes down to performance on the field. And his mistakes are probably more visible to the casual fan than most (offsides, missed blocks, sacks, etc.).

That said, I'm sure he's a nice guy.

I just think he should find another line of work.

I SO don't care about "nice guy(s)".

Micjones
06-18-2009, 05:52 PM
I guess it really comes down to performance on the field. And his mistakes are probably more visible to the casual fan than most (offsides, missed blocks, sacks, etc.).

He certainly has had his share of penalties on the field.
That's a quick way to meet the ire of Chiefs fans.

I just think he should find another line of work.

ROFL

DaneMcCloud
06-18-2009, 06:11 PM
I SO don't care about "nice guy(s)".

I don't either but I'm not a typical Chiefs fan.

NTTATWWT.

OnTheWarpath58
06-18-2009, 06:24 PM
I don't either but I'm not a typical Chiefs fan.

NTTATWWT.

This fanbase is content with 8-8 annually, it shouldn't come as a surprise that they are content with average OL play as well.

People around here still give Waters WAY more credit than he deserves, IMO.

Yeah, he's been to Pro Bowls. Great. Considering the FANS are doing the voting, it carries no weight with me. Popularity contest.

I'm not sure how anyone can look at this line and expect it to be better in 2009. Waters and Goff are another year older, and Niswanger and McIntosh are in way over their heads. Albert is the only guy that we can reasonably expect to actually improve this season.

Jeez, McIntosh pancakes a couple of DB's in the Miami game, and all of a sudden people act like he's a good RT.

Amazing.

Mr. Flopnuts
06-18-2009, 06:25 PM
LMAO It was a great pancake.

OnTheWarpath58
06-18-2009, 06:31 PM
LMAO It was a great pancake.

I give him credit for not quitting on the play and getting the 2nd guy, but when you outweigh someone by 150 pounds, you better win that battle 100 out of 10 times.

Mr. Flopnuts
06-18-2009, 06:32 PM
I give him credit for not quitting on the play and getting the 2nd guy, but when you outweigh someone by 150 pounds, you better win that battle 100 out of 10 times.

He'll always be I-85 to me. But that was one of the most entertaining plays I've ever watched. I love the pork chops.

OnTheWarpath58
06-18-2009, 06:33 PM
He'll always be I-85 to me. But that was one of the most entertaining plays I've ever watched. I love the pork chops.

LMAO

milkman
06-18-2009, 06:53 PM
People tend to go a little overboard in their assessments of Niswanger and McIntosh.

The truth is that Niswanger is a serviceable Center.
The truth is Damion McIntosh played well down the stretch at the RT spot.

I think the Offensive Line will be fairly solid.

If Niswanger can learn to keep his butt down while snapping the ball, he could actually become more than servicable.

When he snaps the ball, he raises his tail end and loses any chance at gaining any leverage.

milkman
06-18-2009, 06:57 PM
Taylor's more than just undersized.
He's doesn't bring the kind of physicality to the Right Tackle position that you need either. He'd work as a stop-gap perhaps, but I don't think he's a long-term solution there.



The number of sacks surrendered by McIntosh make him a middling RT in terms of pass protection. IIRC, he gave up more sacks at the LT spot early in his Chiefs tenure.

With the lack of lower body strength that McIntosh possesses, he doesn't bring any more physicality to the position than Taylor would.

I think you're right, Taylor would only be a stop gap, but McIntosh should have also only been a stop gap, and of the two, I'd rather gap stop with Taylor, who is quicker and every bit as strong.

OnTheWarpath58
06-18-2009, 07:02 PM
With the lack of lower body strength that McIntosh possesses, he doesn't bring any more physicality to the position than Taylor would.

I think you're right, Taylor would only be a stop gap, but McIntosh should have also only been a stop gap, and of the two, I'd rather gap stop with Taylor, who is quicker and every bit as strong.

Don't forget that little thing called "potential".

Raised On Riots
06-18-2009, 08:12 PM
Don't forget that little thing called "potential".

"Believe In Potential"!
-The Official Slogan of the KCCTF.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 09:33 PM
This fanbase is content with 8-8 annually, it shouldn't come as a surprise that they are content with average OL play as well.

Because anyone who doesn't go apeshit over serviceable players holding down starting jobs (like they do all over the NFL) for this team can be call content with mediocrity. Makes sense...
:rolleyes:

Oddly, the same people that make those accusations routinely scold those contented fans about clamoring for Free Agents.

People around here still give Waters WAY more credit than he deserves, IMO.

Yeah, he's been to Pro Bowls. Great. Considering the FANS are doing the voting, it carries no weight with me. Popularity contest.

ROFL

"Yeah he's been to Pro Bowls..." FOUR by my count, but he's a paper weight. Cut him.

Yeah, undeserving players make their way to Honolulu every season because the voting isn't at all performance-based. Surely the voters in upstate New York are partial to our beloved (but overrated) Brian Waters.

I'm not sure how anyone can look at this line and expect it to be better in 2009. Waters and Goff are another year older, and Niswanger and McIntosh are in way over their heads. Albert is the only guy that we can reasonably expect to actually improve this season.

Really?
Branden Albert will improve after logging his first year in the NFL.

Waters returns to the Left Guard spot where players routinely play good football well into their middle-30's (Waters is 32).

Niswanger isn't ideal at the Center spot, but could be pushed by or lose his job to Eric Ghiaciuc.

Mike Goff is a significant upgrade over last year's starter at RG (Adrian Jones).

And McIntosh returns to the RT spot barring a serious signing...

It's really not hard to believe this line will be improved.

Jeez, McIntosh pancakes a couple of DB's in the Miami game, and all of a sudden people act like he's a good RT.

Amazing.

Yeah, forget the rest of the season.
We're keying on one play.
And calling him "serviceable".

Those crazy Chiefs fans...

Micjones
06-18-2009, 09:37 PM
Don't forget that little thing called "potential".

Or in layman's terms... Talent not yet realized.

Micjones
06-18-2009, 09:40 PM
With the lack of lower body strength that McIntosh possesses, he doesn't bring any more physicality to the position than Taylor would.

Taylor's probably 30+ pounds lighter than McIntosh.
Are you serious?

I think you're right, Taylor would only be a stop gap, but McIntosh should have also only been a stop gap, and of the two, I'd rather gap stop with Taylor, who is quicker and every bit as strong.

McIntosh is a stop-gap. No doubt in my mind.
I wasn't excited about him moving over in the first place.
And remember I said all off-season I wanted Tauscher, Ray Willis, or Shaffer to replace him.

milkman
06-18-2009, 09:44 PM
Taylor's probably 30+ pounds lighter than McIntosh.
Are you serious?

Yes I'm serious.

Have you seen McIntosh's legs?
They are sticks.

I weigh nearly 200 lbs less (5'7", 150) than he does, and my legs are bigger than his.

He gets no power from his legs, and to be anymore than he is, he would need to add muscle and strength to those legs.

Buehler445
06-18-2009, 09:55 PM
Yes I'm serious.

Have you seen McIntosh's legs?
They are sticks.

I weigh nearly 200 lbs less (5'7", 150) than he does, and my legs are bigger than his.

He gets no power from his legs, and to be anymore than he is, he would need to add muscle and strength to those legs.

Don't forget that you're old also :D

Buehler445
06-18-2009, 09:59 PM
This is probably a dumb discussion to have, but fuck it. It's the offseason.

Why can't Herb fit at RT? HOLD ON! CALM DOWN! Let's start at the top.

1. It has been widely speculated that we will be a pass heavy offense due to the teams Pioli built and offenses Haley coached.

2. Herb excels in pass protection and isn't strong enough to plow the road for the run.

3. Goff excels at run blocking and there will be TE help over there to try to offset the weaknesses in the run blocking. (We'll probably run left anyway).

It seems to me that if Herb can provide significantly improved pass protection, he could provide the most value of anyone on the roster.

I know. I know. He's too small, but if we're passing all the time, it may be better than Sackintosh (who earned that nickname) and Richardson (whose form is bad from reports).

Just a thought.
Posted via Mobile Device

I think it's safe to say that I'm in the Taylor camp. I just hope that Taylor gets an opportunity to compete for it. He's better at LT, but if he's better than what we have at RT, it is pretty wasteful to let him sit in case Albert gets hurt.

DaneMcCloud
06-18-2009, 10:40 PM
I think it's safe to say that I'm in the Taylor camp. I just hope that Taylor gets an opportunity to compete for it. He's better at LT, but if he's better than what we have at RT, it is pretty wasteful to let him sit in case Albert gets hurt.

I don't think that Taylor even sniffs the right side of the line this year.

The Chiefs have ScIntosh, Richardson and now Brown.

Herbie stays on the left, IMO.

BossChief
06-19-2009, 02:41 AM
People should just throw out the idea of the Barry Richardson experiment, he wont make it out of camp.

The guy got benched in his final year at Clemson for a TRUE FRESHMAN.

A true NFL scarecrow!


Herb Taylor is a fantastic LT backup, if Albert goes down for an extended period of time we wont have to change things to compensate for his loss. Herb can hold his own. Like some have said, he likely isnt an ideal fit at rt because it really doesnt fit his skill set. He could play there, but his ceiling is much lower than at LT.

I bet the plan is to have Brown take over at right tackle next year, but with injuries he might be thrust into action sooner than that.

People are slamming Mcsack for his performance against atlanta/Abraham and imho it isnt really fair for two reasons:
1) in micd up, Abraham said he was looking at BRANDON ALBERTS feet to dictate the snap count and if the play was run or pass, a rookie mistake that he has corrected
2) he was in his second game at a brand new position of his veteran career facing one of the leagues elite pass rushers. Abraham also found his way around Albert routinely in the game, as Atlanta moved him around to cause havoc.

Rudy has become the lines weakest link imo but is a borderline genious and could correct his form/fundamentals problems under a much better line coach, though I feel he should/could be a very good guard IF we had a real center (which we dont)

chiefzilla1501
06-19-2009, 03:01 AM
I'm not suggesting that he will or even can improve at this point.
What I'm saying, rather, is that he was pretty solid at the RT spot just last season.

Surrendering a sack basically every other game is pretty respectable pass protection.

But again, the reason why his sack totals dropped is because the shotgun offense allowed Thigpen to get a quicker read and to dodge pressure. McIntosh is a below average right tackle--he is just not strong enough in the legs to have the kind of leverage you need. His strength his entire career has been that he has pretty quick feet, which is useful if you're a left tackle.

I think McIntosh is a better lineman than he gets credit for, but as a right tackle, he's still a liability. If you put any QB under center, he's going to get them clobbered.

chiefzilla1501
06-19-2009, 03:07 AM
Taylor's probably 30+ pounds lighter than McIntosh.
Are you serious?



McIntosh is a stop-gap. No doubt in my mind.
I wasn't excited about him moving over in the first place.
And remember I said all off-season I wanted Tauscher, Ray Willis, or Shaffer to replace him.

Weight is a small consideration. The ability to play the position depends moreso on strength and leverage, particularly in the lower body, and Taylor has both of those. He'd make for a better left tackle than a right tackle, but he's far more equipped to play the position than McIntosh.

If the Chiefs believe Taylor has any potential, then you find a way to start him. You don't leave a talented player to serve as a backup if they can contribute as a starter elsewhere. McIntosh is a more than capable backup at LT--in fact, he's perfect for the role, even if overpaid for it. As for Barry Richardson, I never understood why people are so obsessed about him. They like him because he's a big body who played for a blue-chip football program. That's not good enough. The kid's feet are just not quick enough, and considering that he plays a position where power/strength are far more important than quick feet, it doesn't help that the kid has no mean streak.

chiefzilla1501
06-19-2009, 03:20 AM
Branden Albert will improve after logging his first year in the NFL.

Waters returns to the Left Guard spot where players routinely play good football well into their middle-30's (Waters is 32).

Niswanger isn't ideal at the Center spot, but could be pushed by or lose his job to Eric Ghiaciuc.

Mike Goff is a significant upgrade over last year's starter at RG (Adrian Jones).

And McIntosh returns to the RT spot barring a serious signing...

It's really not hard to believe this line will be improved.
Albert and Waters are fine.
God help us if Eric Ghiaciuc wins over Niswanger. He wasn't good enough to start or keep a roster spot for Cincy's pathetic offense last year, why should he start in ours? Our Center position continues to be a liability. Mike Goff is not a significant upgrade over Jones, he is merely an upgrade. He was always a good not great player, but at his age, he's been rapidly declining and may end up being not a whole lot better than Jones. And McIntosh playing RT continues to be a concern. The guy does not have the body frame to play the position--he belongs where in a spot where he can quickly move his feet.

I agree that there's nowhere to go but up, but I think you're really overstating how much so. Their run blocking was piss poor last year--they only gained yards through the element of surprise. And they had to design an offense around a shotgun spread that is meant to give the QB a quicker reaction to a pass rush and to get rid of the ball very quickly. If the team is to move forward, they can't rely on an offense that compensates for their o-line's weaknesses. Therefore, if they move away from the shotgun spread on many downs, than the decline in play from that shift will all but nullify any improvements they made in the o-line, which were small as it is.

Raised On Riots
06-19-2009, 03:31 AM
ROFL

A "hybrid" 3-4 anchored by rookies at DE, wannabe's at OLB, an O-line with a slightly hovering at mediocre Center, 2 legit Lineman, a "dropsie", a "maybe", a Seattle spokesman for Icy Hot, and topped-off with the poster child for Back Ups all across the land:

"TO THE CRUDELY CONSTRUCTED, HAVANA TO MIAMI FLOTATION VESSEL"!!!

ROFL

JASONSAUTO
06-19-2009, 07:59 AM
ROFL

A "hybrid" 3-4 anchored by rookies at DE, wannabe's at OLB, an O-line with a slightly hovering at mediocre Center, 2 legit Lineman, a "dropsie", a "maybe", a Seattle spokesman for Icy Hot, and topped-off with the poster child for Back Ups all across the land:

"TO THE CRUDELY CONSTRUCTED, HAVANA TO MIAMI FLOTATION VESSEL"!!!

ROFL

meh just shut the fuck up. damn.

Micjones
06-19-2009, 11:23 AM
But again, the reason why his sack totals dropped is because the shotgun offense allowed Thigpen to get a quicker read and to dodge pressure.

I've heard this argument before and I'm not completely comfortable with it.
Again, over the last 10 games he (Thigpen) was dumped almost twice per game. And again, D-Mac has never been a sieve in pass protection. Even on the left side of the line where he faced better competition.

McIntosh is a below average right tackle--he is just not strong enough in the legs to have the kind of leverage you need. His strength his entire career has been that he has pretty quick feet, which is useful if you're a left tackle.

I've conceded the fact that he's not much of a run-blocker.

I think McIntosh is a better lineman than he gets credit for, but as a right tackle, he's still a liability. If you put any QB under center, he's going to get them clobbered.

I don't think he's much of a liability, but I've wanted to upgrade the position all off-season so... I'll stick to my guns. I believe Tauscher's still out there...

Mr. Krab
06-19-2009, 11:59 AM
Yes I'm serious.

Have you seen McIntosh's legs?
They are sticks.

I weigh nearly 200 lbs less (5'7", 150) than he does, and my legs are bigger than his.

He gets no power from his legs, and to be anymore than he is, he would need to add muscle and strength to those legs.Roaf's legs were sticks too.

Too bad that's where the similarities end.

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 12:21 PM
And again, D-Mac has never been a sieve in pass protection.

Then why was he release by two different NFL teams before landing with the Chiefs?

Good left tackles are tied up long term. They aren't usually allowed to just "walk away".

It's my opinion that you have a much higher opinion of D-Sack than anyone in the NFL.

Buehler445
06-19-2009, 01:23 PM
I don't think that Taylor even sniffs the right side of the line this year.

The Chiefs have ScIntosh, Richardson and now Brown.

Herbie stays on the left, IMO.

Unfortunately I think you're right. That doesn't mean I think that it is the correct course of action. I think Taylor may be the best RT on the roster right now. He isn't long term, but if he shows he can do well at BOTH, you've got a hell of a backup or a hell of a potential trade after we get someone better.

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 01:33 PM
Unfortunately I think you're right. That doesn't mean I think that it is the correct course of action. I think Taylor may be the best RT on the roster right now. He isn't long term, but if he shows he can do well at BOTH, you've got a hell of a backup or a hell of a potential trade after we get someone better.

His size and skill level doesn't lend itself to the right tackle position.

Barry Richardson (6'5, 325 pounds) has the perfect physical size to be a dominant, road-grader right tackle. His problem is all mental. It will be interesting to see what our new O-Line coach, John Muir, can do with him.

Taylor, at 6'3, 290 doesn't. He's better suited as a LT and forcing him to play the right side isn't wise, IMO.

Buehler445
06-19-2009, 01:49 PM
His size and skill level doesn't lend itself to the right tackle position.

Barry Richardson (6'5, 325 pounds) has the perfect physical size to be a dominant, road-grader right tackle. His problem is all mental. It will be interesting to see what our new O-Line coach, John Muir, can do with him.

Taylor, at 6'3, 290 doesn't. He's better suited as a LT and forcing him to play the right side isn't wise, IMO.

I agree that his body type isn't suited for RT. I agree thaty Richardson's is. I hope to FUCK he pulls his head out of his bitch ass and becomes a bamf. But based on last season I think that Taylor is the best RT on the roster. It is not optimal. Heck it isn't even good enough, but IMO, he's the best we have unless Brown is tearing shit up.

Unless it increases his chance for injury, I would rather see him play out of position than have his talent wasted on the bench. ESPECIALLY when what we have is such ass.
Posted via Mobile Device

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 02:13 PM
I agree that his body type isn't suited for RT. I agree thaty Richardson's is. I hope to FUCK he pulls his head out of his bitch ass and becomes a bamf. But based on last season I think that Taylor is the best RT on the roster. It is not optimal. Heck it isn't even good enough, but IMO, he's the best we have unless Brown is tearing shit up.

Unless it increases his chance for injury, I would rather see him play out of position than have his talent wasted on the bench. ESPECIALLY when what we have is such ass.
Posted via Mobile Device

Here's the problem as I see it: As you know, football is a game of match-ups. As much as I dislike D-Sack, Taylor just doesn't match up well with the D-lineman and LBer's for such defenses as the Ravens, Raiders, Giants, Eagles, Steelers, Redskins, etc. I'm just afraid (and I'm sure the coaches are as well), that a guy Taylor's size would just get eaten for lunch by those players.

Consider this: The Chiefs didn't just draft a right tackle in the 5th round - they drafted a freakin' beast. The guy is 6'8, 325, not 6'3, 290. That should give you (and Chiefs fans) an idea of what they're looking for in a right tackle (Richardson's a beast as well).

Well find out in training camp but I'd be absolutely shocked to see Taylor (barring injury) anywhere near the right side of the line.

Buehler445
06-19-2009, 02:25 PM
Here's the problem as I see it: As you know, football is a game of match-ups. As much as I dislike D-Sack, Taylor just doesn't match up well with the D-lineman and LBer's for such defenses as the Ravens, Raiders, Giants, Eagles, Steelers, Redskins, etc. I'm just afraid (and I'm sure the coaches are as well), that a guy Taylor's size would just get eaten for lunch by those players.

Consider this: The Chiefs didn't just draft a right tackle in the 5th round - they drafted a freakin' beast. The guy is 6'8, 325, not 6'3, 290. That should give you (and Chiefs fans) an idea of what they're looking for in a right tackle (Richardson's a beast as well).

Well find out in training camp but I'd be absolutely shocked to see Taylor (barring injury) anywhere near the right side of the line.

I totally agree, but McInsuck got his soul dominated over there. I mean brutally.

If Richardson is still a toolbox and Brown isn't ready, I'd rather see Taylor out there than McIntosh, that's all. Just because it isn't optimal doesn't mean it isn't better than the alternative.
Posted via Mobile Device

chiefzilla1501
06-19-2009, 02:35 PM
I've heard this argument before and I'm not completely comfortable with it.
Again, over the last 10 games he (Thigpen) was dumped almost twice per game. And again, D-Mac has never been a sieve in pass protection. Even on the left side of the line where he faced better competition.
The reason it comes into play is that with a shotgun offense, Thigpen can quickly spot a blitz and react accordingly. And if the pass rush comes at him instantly, he has some cushion to react (if you are rushed while you're dropping back, you're toast). That's why spread QBs are usually run by mobile QBs--because they can react quickly and get out of the way quickly. The shotgun offense was definitely designed to keep Thigpen on his feet without getting killed. He may have been sacked 2 times per game, but it could have been a whole lot worse if they had gone under center.

McIntosh isn't a bad pass protector. But on the left side, he usually lines up against speed rushers where footwork is a lot more important than strength. In those instances, McIntosh could hang with the good pass rushers, but he always looked vulnerable against the speed rushers. In Miami, in fact, they used to give him a lot of help when he was clearly outmatched. In KC, on the right side, it's more about strength than footwork, as the bigger DEs usually line up on the left side, and that's just not D-Mac's game.

Mr. Krab
06-19-2009, 02:37 PM
Anyone thinking our offensive line is going to be anything but mediocre is being pretty optimistic. Nothing wrong with being hopeful about it but the only realistic chance for improvement this year is all from Cassel and coaching. This is a transitional and learning year for the new administration and players.

Everyone cross your fingers and hope for the best.

chiefzilla1501
06-19-2009, 02:39 PM
His size and skill level doesn't lend itself to the right tackle position.

Barry Richardson (6'5, 325 pounds) has the perfect physical size to be a dominant, road-grader right tackle. His problem is all mental. It will be interesting to see what our new O-Line coach, John Muir, can do with him.

Taylor, at 6'3, 290 doesn't. He's better suited as a LT and forcing him to play the right side isn't wise, IMO.

I just don't agree with this. I think people are so hung up on Richardson's measurables that they can't see the forest from the trees. He's got size, but that's it. He also does not have quick feet.

Here's the way I see it. Chris Williams went into the same exact draft with the same negative--here was a productive tackle for a good football program that couldn't be motivated to play. The Bears graded Williams as a first round pick. Barry Richardson was graded as a 6th rounder and, who knows, if the Chiefs didn't pick him, he may very well have gone undrafted.

I guarantee that he plummeted in the draft for reasons beyond motivation. I just don't think he's that good. And given that last year, the Chiefs made every effort to get young guys in over veterans, I still believe that if Richardson showed ANYthing on the practice field, he would have gotten a shot to play. Hell, the Chiefs were so unimpressed with his play that they even moved Taylor to RT even though that meant the Chiefs were risking their backup LT.

chiefzilla1501
06-19-2009, 02:40 PM
Here's the problem as I see it: As you know, football is a game of match-ups. As much as I dislike D-Sack, Taylor just doesn't match up well with the D-lineman and LBer's for such defenses as the Ravens, Raiders, Giants, Eagles, Steelers, Redskins, etc. I'm just afraid (and I'm sure the coaches are as well), that a guy Taylor's size would just get eaten for lunch by those players.

Consider this: The Chiefs didn't just draft a right tackle in the 5th round - they drafted a freakin' beast. The guy is 6'8, 325, not 6'3, 290. That should give you (and Chiefs fans) an idea of what they're looking for in a right tackle (Richardson's a beast as well).

Well find out in training camp but I'd be absolutely shocked to see Taylor (barring injury) anywhere near the right side of the line.

I'm a lot more confident in Brown than I am of Richardson. I honestly believe that Richardson is going to have to fight like hell to even keep a spot on this roster.

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 02:52 PM
I just don't agree with this.

Don't agree with what? Richardson has ideal size and strength to be a dominant right tackle. He doesn't have the mental side and a mean streak.

Look at some of the scouting reports. The guy is smart. He was rated as high as a third rounder by some scouts. He the PERFECT 6th round draft choice - there's a ton of potential there. It's just a matter of whether or not he realizes it.

We're not talking about a first or second rounder, Dude. We're talking about a 6th rounder. They usually take several years to develop (if at all).

MOhillbilly
06-19-2009, 03:20 PM
Shit i cant wait till opening day. Then we can rant about who was wrong and who was wrong.

BarrySPAMAID
06-19-2009, 03:31 PM
I guess when it all comes down to it,

The 2008 draft has lost so much of it's luster, I keep hoping for Barry Richardson. I mean how many players do we have left from last years draft? I know Robinosn, and Franklin, and that TE kid that caught with the weed, who else?

Barry Richardson DOES NOT have quick feet. He has this, and his motivation going against him. We'll see how he does in camp. Remember, he played some last year, and did ok. See for yourself.

BarrySPAMAID
06-19-2009, 03:32 PM
Shit i cant wait till opening day. Then we can rant about who was wrong and who was wrong.

Welcome to my world. If they start out 2-0, that will be funny. I just cant wait until they do.,

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 03:33 PM
Welcome to my world. If they start out 2-0, that will be funny. I just cant wait until they do.,

You're either having fun with the rest of the forum or you're a complete and utter retard, the likes of which we've never seen before.

2-0. They'll be fortunate to win 2 games all year.

ROFL

KCtotheSB
06-19-2009, 03:36 PM
At best, Kansas City's starting 1-1. Of course, that 1 win is dependent on if the Chiefs defense feel like tackling Darren McFadden or not.

MOhillbilly
06-19-2009, 03:39 PM
Welcome to my world. If they start out 2-0, that will be funny. I just cant wait until they do.,

make sure to come around when KC goes 0-4 out the gate.

BarrySPAMAID
06-19-2009, 03:47 PM
make sure to come around when KC goes 0-4 out the gate.

I'll be here. Ready to eat crow my friend. Like a man.

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 03:47 PM
At best, Kansas City's starting 1-1. Of course, that 1 win is dependent on if the Chiefs defense feel like tackling Darren McFadden or not.

Or Jeff Garcia

BarrySPAMAID
06-19-2009, 03:50 PM
You're either having fun with the rest of the forum or you're a complete and utter retard, the likes of which we've never seen before.

2-0. They'll be fortunate to win 2 games all year.

ROFL

Your right about one thing, I'm like nothing you've seen before. I refuse to cash in a season before camp, let alone the preseason. I wont do it. Things may take a turn for the worse in camp, I doubt it, but we'll see.

I am having fun picking up Chiefsnation if that's what your getting at. We've had to go through some pretty shitty seasons the last couple of years. I'm picking you up Dane, and hanging myself on a cross for these Chiefs. I accept my fate, and look forward to Baltimore.

I do this to for the 13th man. I do this for the Sea of Red, and I MAKE NO apologies. With respect.

Micjones
06-19-2009, 04:58 PM
Then why was he release by two different NFL teams before landing with the Chiefs?

Because players are only ever cut because of poor performance.
:rolleyes:

Good left tackles are tied up long term. They aren't usually allowed to just "walk away".

You mean like Willie Roaf?

It's my opinion that you have a much higher opinion of D-Sack than anyone in the NFL.

I disagree. I'm only calling him a decent football player.
I think given him being a multi-year starter since his career began suggests that at least three teams in the NFL see it the same way.

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 05:00 PM
Because players are only ever cut because of poor performance.
:rolleyes:



You mean like Willie Roaf?



I disagree. I'm only calling him a decent football player.
I think given him being a multi-year starter since his career began suggests that at least three teams in the NFL see it the same way.

Again, more support for D-Sack.

Even comparing Willie Roaf to D-Sack.

Wow, Dude.

Micjones
06-19-2009, 05:11 PM
The reason it comes into play is that with a shotgun offense, Thigpen can quickly spot a blitz and react accordingly. And if the pass rush comes at him instantly, he has some cushion to react (if you are rushed while you're dropping back, you're toast). That's why spread QBs are usually run by mobile QBs--because they can react quickly and get out of the way quickly. The shotgun offense was definitely designed to keep Thigpen on his feet without getting killed. He may have been sacked 2 times per game, but it could have been a whole lot worse if they had gone under center.

I understand the offensive philosophy.
I'm also well aware of the limitations of last year's Offensive Line.

My point was simply, the spread was also used to cover up the limitations of our QB and other offensive skillplayers.

McIntosh isn't a bad pass protector. But on the left side, he usually lines up against speed rushers where footwork is a lot more important than strength. In those instances, McIntosh could hang with the good pass rushers, but he always looked vulnerable against the speed rushers. In Miami, in fact, they used to give him a lot of help when he was clearly outmatched. In KC, on the right side, it's more about strength than footwork, as the bigger DEs usually line up on the left side, and that's just not D-Mac's game.

I'm not in total disagreement, but I do think defending bull-rushers is as much about reaction time, instinct, and how well you use your hands.

Micjones
06-19-2009, 05:11 PM
Again, more support for D-Sack.

Even comparing Willie Roaf to D-Sack.

Wow, Dude.

When your argument fails you...
Ad hominem to the rescue!!!

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 05:18 PM
When your argument fails you...
Ad hominem to the rescue!!!

Yeah, right.

Because as we all know, Willie Roaf was cut...

Dicky McElephant
06-19-2009, 05:33 PM
You mean like Willie Roaf?





There is a difference between being traded and being cut.

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 05:33 PM
There is a difference between being traded and being cut.

There is?

Huh.

Dicky McElephant
06-19-2009, 05:41 PM
There is?

Huh.

Amazing....isn't it?

Micjones
06-19-2009, 06:14 PM
Yeah, right.

Because as we all know, Willie Roaf was cut...

Cute. Thing is, you said good LT's aren't allowed to "walk".
While certainly they received compensation for him (an eye-popping 4th Round Pick) they did, IN FACT, let a perennial Pro Bowler -- who took 4 more trips to Honolulu as a Chief -- go to another team. Something you say, DOES NOT happen. Good LT's are nailed to the floor with their respective franchises.

And let's not forget that Damion McIntosh was a cap casualty in Miami.
He and four other players were released in '06 to help the Fins get under the cap. That wasn't a performance-based transaction. And IIRC, he was also walked in San Diego with a dozen other players (many of them notable) for similar reasons.

Micjones
06-19-2009, 06:15 PM
There is a difference between being traded and being cut.

Indeed. And I'm fully aware that he was traded.

Thing is, your boy suggested that good LT's don't get away from the teams they've given service time to. That's not entirely true.

Roaf was allowed out of New Orleans for a 4th Rounder and he went on to give this team 4, count them 4, seasons of Pro Bowl-caliber play.

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 06:17 PM
Cute. Thing is, you said good LT's aren't allowed to "walk".
While certainly they received compensation for him (an eye-popping 4th Round Pick) they did, IN FACT, let a perennial Pro Bowler -- who took 4 more trips to Honolulu as a Chief -- go to another team. Something you say, DOES NOT happen. Good LT's are nailed to the floor with their respective franchises.

And let's not forget that Damion McIntosh was a cap casualty in Miami.
He and four other players were released in '06 to help the Fins get under the cap. That wasn't a performance-based transaction.

And IIRC, he was also walked in San Diego with a dozen other notable players for similar reasons.

Dude, Roaf was traded for a 3rd round draft choice. He was coming off of major knee surgery and there were questions as to his recovery. He had issues in 2002 with the Chiefs with the knee but played well.

If Miami had wanted to re-sign D-Sack, they could have re-signed D-Sack. That team went 1-15 that year. He was cut in San Diego for the same reason he was cut in Miami: He sucks.

Only in Kansas City could you find someone to defend possibly the worst starting tackle (right or left) in the entire NFL.

Only.

Micjones
06-19-2009, 06:27 PM
Dude, Roaf was traded for a 3rd round draft choice. He was coming off of major knee surgery and there were questions as to his recovery. He had issues in 2002 with the Chiefs with the knee but played well.

You're right. I misspoke. The initial deal was for the Chiefs to send a conditional 4th to New Orleans. That pick was eventually upgraded to a 3rd Rounder. My bad.

If Miami had wanted to re-sign D-Sack, they could have re-signed D-Sack. That team went 1-15 that year. He was cut in San Diego for the same reason he was cut in Miami: He sucks.

Miami was in bad cap shape. And, remember, McIntosh was arrested just a few weeks prior for allegedly beating his wife. It's not as black-and-white as you're making it out to be.

Only in Kansas City could you find someone to defend possibly the worst starting tackle (right or left) in the entire NFL.

He's not the worst. Not at all.
But I guess I'm crazy for calling him a serviceable player.

Only in Kansas City do people believe you're going to field an Offensive Line with Willie Roaf-like talent at all 5 spots.

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 06:28 PM
Only in Kansas City do people believe you're going to field an Offensive Line with Willie Roaf-like talent at all 5 spots.

The Chiefs don't need a Willie Roaf at right tackle.

They just need a right tackle that can block for the running game and passing game with equal adept.

Micjones
06-19-2009, 06:30 PM
The Chiefs don't need a Willie Roaf at right tackle.

They just need a right tackle that can block for the running game and passing game with equal adept.

Is there a better option on this team than McIntosh?

orange
06-19-2009, 06:33 PM
Is there a better option on this team than McIntosh?

No, there isn't. Which raises the question, "Why?"

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 06:35 PM
Is there a better option on this team than McIntosh?

At this point in time? I doubt it.

Which brings me back to the notion that the Chiefs offensive line will again be one of the main reasons why they won't win more than four games in 2009.

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 06:36 PM
No, there isn't. Which raises the question, "Why?"

Because in a talented, offensive line-heavy draft, the new Chiefs brass decided to draft defensive lineman, in a year when defensive players were generally rated as average or below average overall.

Micjones
06-19-2009, 06:38 PM
At this point in time? I doubt it.

Which brings me back to the notion that the Chiefs offensive line will again be one of the main reasons why they won't win more than four games in 2009.

Fair enough. I disagree though.

I think RG play will be much improved and that will aid McIntosh.
Not to mention the fact that they'll be better conditioned, Albert will be improved, and they're being coached by one of the best O-Line coaches in the business.

the Talking Can
06-19-2009, 06:40 PM
You're right. I misspoke. The initial deal was for the Chiefs to send a conditional 4th to New Orleans. That pick was eventually upgraded to a 3rd Rounder. My bad.



Miami was in bad cap shape. And, remember, McIntosh was arrested just a few weeks prior for allegedly beating his wife. It's not as black-and-white as you're making it out to be.



He's not the worst. Not at all.
But I guess I'm crazy for calling him a serviceable player.

Only in Kansas City do people believe you're going to field an Offensive Line with Willie Roaf-like talent at all 5 spots.

he is serviceable....if your goal is 2-14.....

it was a god damn jail break on the right side of our line, and only thigpen's ability to scramble from a shotgun allowed McIntosh to project the illusion of being serviceable....

Mr. Krab
06-19-2009, 06:44 PM
No, there isn't. Which raises the question, "Why?"Are you talking about YOUR team, the donkeys?

If you are questioning why the Chiefs didn't get a replacement for McIntosh, it's pretty simple. Imo. I think Pioli and Haley decided to burn their grace period year to evaluate the existing players under their instruction and to transition all the guys into their schemes and style.

Why change over a bunch of personnel when you don't know what you have now? Why add to the pains of transition by adding a bunch of new guys? Why perhap waste a big free agent signing on a transition year where you're not going to win much anyway?

Too much is all screwed up right now so they are taking this first free pass year to settle in and get a grip on the situation. They only get one grace period and that's the first year.

chiefzilla1501
06-19-2009, 06:45 PM
I understand the offensive philosophy.
I'm also well aware of the limitations of last year's Offensive Line.

My point was simply, the spread was also used to cover up the limitations of our QB and other offensive skillplayers.



I'm not in total disagreement, but I do think defending bull-rushers is as much about reaction time, instinct, and how well you use your hands.

That's part of it, but it's mostly about leverage. That's something that McIntosh doesn't have--he simply does not have the lower body strength to do it consistently. That's his big achilles heel.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that as a left tackle, this forum is WAY too hard on him. As a starter, he was probably about middle-of-the-pack (I would say a top 15 left tackle), which goes along with your opinion that he's "serviceable"--definitely fair to say. But on the right side, he's just outmatched and a step below serviceable. He may be the best option on this team right now, but that's not saying very much.

chiefzilla1501
06-19-2009, 06:48 PM
Because in a talented, offensive line-heavy draft, the new Chiefs brass decided to draft defensive lineman, in a year when defensive players were generally rated as average or below average overall.

I don't really see the objection. The Chiefs had a million needs. We had to make sacrifices somewhere. I'm personally very glad that we took a guy like Tyson Jackson instead of taking a Guard or a RT. In terms of positional value, it makes a lot more sense. And as most draftniks say, you don't pass up a guy with good positional value in order to trade for two guys with low positional value. I'm still satisfied with the decision to take Jackson and given that after the first round, you should draft on BPA rather than need, if the Chiefs thought McGee was the BPA, then so be it.

orange
06-19-2009, 06:51 PM
If you are questioning why the Chiefs didn't get a replacement for McIntosh, it's pretty simple.

I was indeed talking about McIntosh. The Broncos line last year had their best season ever, and they're all young except Wiegmann who still has some gas in his tank. And they have depth. Offensive line is not a problem for the Broncos.

As for McIntosh, all that you said is true.. EXCEPT that having your QB on the run all the time is not ever good policy. The only reason I can think of that the Chiefs didn't look to replace him is that they think he's good enough. And to me, that means full-time shotgun because he clearly couldn't play the position in the pro-set.

orange
06-19-2009, 06:54 PM
I don't really see the objection. The Chiefs had a million needs. We had to make sacrifices somewhere. I'm personally very glad that we took a guy like Tyson Jackson instead of taking a Guard or a RT. In terms of positional value, it makes a lot more sense. And as most draftniks say, you don't pass up a guy with good positional value in order to trade for two guys with low positional value. I'm still satisfied with the decision to take Jackson and given that after the first round, you should draft on BPA rather than need, if the Chiefs thought McGee was the BPA, then so be it.

They could have brought in free agents as stopgaps without sacrificing anything. They certainly didn't mind a few years on their linebackers, for example.

Just Passin' By
06-19-2009, 06:54 PM
I was indeed talking about McIntosh. The Broncos line last year had their best season ever, and they're all young except Wiegmann who still has some gas in his tank. And they have depth. Offensive line is not a problem for the Broncos.

As for McIntosh, all that you said is true.. EXCEPT that having your QB on the run all the time is not ever good policy. The only reason I can think of that the Chiefs didn't look to replace him is that they think he's good enough. And to me, that means full-time shotgun because he clearly couldn't play the position in the pro-set.

There weren't exactly thousands of great replacements available

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 06:56 PM
There weren't exactly thousands of great replacements available

I can almost guarantee you that Kraig Urbik (taken by Pittsburgh in round 3 of the 2009 NFL Draft) will have a much bigger impact in 2009 than Alex Magee.

Mr. Krab
06-19-2009, 06:56 PM
I was indeed talking about McIntosh. The Broncos line last year had their best season ever, and they're all young except Wiegmann who still has some gas in his tank. And they have depth. Offensive line is not a problem for the Broncos.

As for McIntosh, all that you said is true.. EXCEPT that having your QB on the run all the time is not ever good policy. The only reason I can think of that the Chiefs didn't look to replace him is that they think he's good enough. And to me, that means full-time shotgun because he clearly couldn't play the position in the pro-set.
Last year we used a spread, shotgun offense and we kept the same offensive coord. Last year Cassel played in a spread,shotgun type offense in New England. Cassel is a scrambling type Quarterback kinda of like Jeff Garcia, so i imagine that is the type of offense they hope to run. Spread out the defense, throw the ball quick. Keep the defense guessing to help the offensive line.

Micjones
06-19-2009, 06:57 PM
he is serviceable....if your goal is 2-14...

Yep.

Coaching, lack of talent at the skill positions (offensively), a historically bad defense, poor conditioning, injuries, and a tough schedule be damned.
:rolleyes:

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 06:59 PM
Last year we used a spread, shotgun offense and we kept the same offensive coord. Last year Cassel played in a spread,shotgun type offense in New England. Cassel is a scrambling type Quarterback kinda of like Jeff Garcia, so i imagine that is the type of offense they hope to run. Spread out the defense, throw the ball quick. Keep the defense guessing to help the offensive line.

The Chiefs will be running the same offense as the Arizona Cardinals.

Minus Kurt Warner, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin & Steve Breaston.

Instead we'll see Matt Cassel, Dwayne Bowe, Mark Bradley and Bobby Engram.

Ouch.

Just Passin' By
06-19-2009, 06:59 PM
I can almost guarantee you that Kraig Urbik (taken by Pittsburgh in round 3 of the 2009 NFL Draft) will have a much bigger impact in 2009 than Alex Magee.

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I posted, but ok.

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 07:00 PM
I'm not sure what that has to do with what I posted, but ok.

There weren't exactly thousands of great replacements available

What should I have said to make you understand my point better?

chiefs1111
06-19-2009, 07:31 PM
outside of Albert our line is in pretty bad shape

chiefzilla1501
06-19-2009, 07:45 PM
They could have brought in free agents as stopgaps without sacrificing anything. They certainly didn't mind a few years on their linebackers, for example.

Oh yeah, I'm not overly satisfied with the Chiefs' approach to free agency so far. I'm just saying that on the draft front, I don't mind passing up o-linemen for d-linemen. I would have liked a stopgap at RT, but then, maybe the Chiefs were satisfied enough with Colin Brown. At RG, that's where Mike Goff comes in. I think a lot is going to ride on how quickly Brown progresses if at all. If he progresses well, then this Chiefs' o-line may actually end up being a step above serviceable.

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 07:48 PM
Oh yeah, I'm not overly satisfied with the Chiefs' approach to free agency so far. I'm just saying that on the draft front, I don't mind passing up o-linemen for d-linemen. I would have liked a stopgap at RT, but then, maybe the Chiefs were satisfied enough with Colin Brown.

They're not. According to all of the reports, Richardson is running ahead of Brown. Brown may be years away from starting (if ever).


At RG, that's where Mike Goff comes in. I think a lot is going to ride on how quickly Brown progresses if at all. If he progresses well, then this Chiefs' o-line may actually end up being a step above serviceable.

Don't count on it. Furthermore, counting on a 33 year-old player that was just released by a perennial playoff team should tell you something about the player.

He may be an "upgrade" (and seriously, who wouldn't?) but that doesn't mean that the line will achieve better results, especially considering their opponents this season.

Just Passin' By
06-19-2009, 08:08 PM
What should I have said to make you understand my point better?

Make it sensible. Whether or not your chosen player has a bigger impact in 2009 than someone else drafted in the 3rd round for a different position does not go to replacing McIntosh.

DaneMcCloud
06-19-2009, 08:16 PM
Make it sensible. Whether or not your chosen player has a bigger impact in 2009 than someone else drafted in the 3rd round for a different position does not go to replacing McIntosh.

What?

There weren't exactly thousands of great replacements available

I gave you example of a player that was available when the Chiefs chose in the third round.

And now you've decided to change the rules?

You've finally earned the right to make my ignore list.

Thank you.

Just Passin' By
06-19-2009, 08:19 PM
What?



I gave you example of a player that was available when the Chiefs chose in the third round.

And now you've decided to change the rules?

You've finally earned the right to make my ignore list.

Thank you.

I didn't change any rules. Read what you posted.

I can almost guarantee you that Kraig Urbik (taken by Pittsburgh in round 3 of the 2009 NFL Draft) will have a much bigger impact in 2009 than Alex Magee.

Does NOT mean "This guy could have replaced McIntosh in 2009."

Furthermore, one draft prospect put forth by someone on an internet message board is NOT the same as having all sorts of proven replacements available.

Sheesh!

FAX
06-19-2009, 08:55 PM
Because in a talented, offensive line-heavy draft, the new Chiefs brass decided to draft defensive lineman, in a year when defensive players were generally rated as average or below average overall.

Which is, by far, the most troubling thing the new regime has done, in my view.

Never go full homer.

FAX

Chiefs=Good
06-19-2009, 10:07 PM
Yep.

Coaching, lack of talent at the skill positions (offensively), a historically bad defense, poor conditioning, injuries, and a tough schedule be damned.
:rolleyes:

Wtf McIntsh is horrible and now your saying that we were better than our record last year?? I understand defending the team to some extent but why would u defend that big pile of useless blubber????? u can continue on loving 8-8 seasons but to some of us that expect better, McIntsh is not the anwswer..

BossChief
06-20-2009, 01:45 AM
The Chiefs will be running the same offense as the Arizona Cardinals.

Minus Kurt Warner, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin & Steve Breaston.

Instead we'll see Matt Cassel, Dwayne Bowe, Mark Bradley and Bobby Engram.

Ouch.

Not just the same system as the Cardinals, but the same EXACT SAME system the Patriots ran as well.

The offensive system is called Perkins-Ernhart and both Gailey and Haley both got taught the system first hand from the developer, his name slips my mind, and thats the biggest reason Haley trusts Gailey to call the plays, they have the same basic philosophy. It is also a big reason Haley was a top cantidate to be our new hc after Josh Mcd signed with Denver.

Cassel may not be Kurt Warner, hell he may be no better than Grbac (as I said months ago) but he should be accurate enough to run the offense effectively and to put points on the board. Hopefully Pioli is effective in building a solid oline that can protect the kid for 8 or 9 years so that he can be comfortable back there and pick teams apart consistantly.

Haleys coaching specialty is recievers and I fully expect him to get the most out of our recieving corps under his leadership. Cassel is far more accurate and throws a much more catchable ball than Thigpen did and that should help out our recievers rac yards as well as cutting down on on drops. jmo though

It is no coincidence also, that Josh Mcd brought in Jabar Gaffney and tried to get Cassel, they are from the same system and would take less coaching from "scratch" to get them where he wants them.

Haley seemed to get the most out of that offense during the two year span he coached for the Cardinals. Hopefully the oline is good enough to allow Haley and Haley to do their thing. I think they will be.

Micjones
06-20-2009, 02:14 AM
Wtf McIntsh is horrible and now your saying that we were better than our record last year?? I understand defending the team to some extent but why would u defend that big pile of useless blubber????? u can continue on loving 8-8 seasons but to some of us that expect better, McIntsh is not the anwswer..

Has this become the boilerplate response to any fan being level-headed about the possibilities?

We had holes all over this team and every year people are ready to throw serviceable players onto the trash heap because they aren't perennial Pro Bowlers.

Chiefs fans continuously thumb their noses at everyday, run of the mill players because they don't realize that even on the BEST teams those players make significant contributions annually.

It's the reason why people vie for the replacement of Page/Pollard year in and year out despite a million other holes on this football team.

Yeah, let's keep overhauling the roster every year until we have the '85 Bears, '01 Ravens, and '93 Cowboys all rolled into one... Maybe a dozen years from now we'll have the PERFECT team (that you could only assemble on Madden) and compete for the Lombardi. Wake me when that happens will ya?

IF I thought Damion McIntosh was the ANSWER...
I wouldn't have been the single most vocal poster on this board about upgrading the RT spot this off-season. From Ray Willis, to Kevin Shaffer, to Mark Tauscher... I'm just not going to jump out the window if McIntosh is our starter again this season.

Just Passin' By
06-20-2009, 02:34 AM
Has this become the boilerplate response to any fan being level-headed about the possibilities?

We had holes all over this team and every year people are ready to throw serviceable players onto the trash heap because they aren't perennial Pro Bowlers.

Chiefs fans continuously thumb their noses at everyday, run of the mill players because they don't realize that even on the BEST teams those players make significant contributions annually.

It's the reason why people vie for the replacement of Page/Pollard year in and year out despite a million other holes on this football team.

Yeah, let's keep overhauling the roster every year until we have the '85 Bears, '01 Ravens, and '93 Cowboys all rolled into one... Maybe a dozen years from now we'll have the PERFECT team (that you could only assemble on Madden) and compete for the Lombardi. Wake me when that happens will ya?

IF I thought Damion McIntosh was the ANSWER...
I wouldn't have been the single most vocal poster on this board about upgrading the RT spot this off-season. From Ray Willis, to Kevin Shaffer, to Mark Tauscher... I'm just not going to jump out the window if McIntosh is our starter again this season.

But there was a 3rd round pick made by Pittsburgh who's going to have more of an impact than Alex Magee, so that should put an end to all of this because he puts the screws to the notion that there weren't all sorts of replacements for McIntosh available.



Somehow.

chiefzilla1501
06-20-2009, 08:25 AM
They're not. According to all of the reports, Richardson is running ahead of Brown. Brown may be years away from starting (if ever).




Don't count on it. Furthermore, counting on a 33 year-old player that was just released by a perennial playoff team should tell you something about the player.

He may be an "upgrade" (and seriously, who wouldn't?) but that doesn't mean that the line will achieve better results, especially considering their opponents this season.

Haven't really followed Brown's progress, so that's a shame to know. I'm not worried about Goff or Niswanger. Especially at RG, that's the ideal stopgap position because you can easily grab a good guard next season through a low draft pick or free agent acquisition, and the continuity of the line isn't disrupted much. Why was Goff cut? His skills are on the decline, but also because he's not a long-term solution for anyone. I think Goff falls under Micjones' definition of "servicability." He'll do well enough to not be a liability. And that's fine with me, for the short-term--there were much better positions to fix.

Like you, I'm concerned moreso about McIntosh. Having a serviceable guard is okay as long as you have a premier right tackle next to him. And we don't have that. Now, one thing that we DO have is for the first time we have an offense where the tight end isn't going to be a focal point of the offense, so at least you can keep a tight end in there on a lot of downs to focus more on chipping away at the LDE, rather than going downfield. And as for McGee, like I said, you're comparing apples to oranges. We'll see how the pick fares. I wasn't a huge fan of the pick, but I also agree that that's a pick where you go for BPA and Pioli apparently thought McGee was that. And most experts seem to agree, especially in the context of our defense. The great thing about drafting D-linemen is even if they don't start, they can still play a very valuable role as a rotational backup. So that's something I dont' think we can praise or criticize until we see his actual role on this defense.

Chiefs=Good
06-20-2009, 08:51 AM
Has this become the boilerplate response to any fan being level-headed about the possibilities?

We had holes all over this team and every year people are ready to throw serviceable players onto the trash heap because they aren't perennial Pro Bowlers.

Chiefs fans continuously thumb their noses at everyday, run of the mill players because they don't realize that even on the BEST teams those players make significant contributions annually.

It's the reason why people vie for the replacement of Page/Pollard year in and year out despite a million other holes on this football team.

Yeah, let's keep overhauling the roster every year until we have the '85 Bears, '01 Ravens, and '93 Cowboys all rolled into one... Maybe a dozen years from now we'll have the PERFECT team (that you could only assemble on Madden) and compete for the Lombardi. Wake me when that happens will ya?

IF I thought Damion McIntosh was the ANSWER...
I wouldn't have been the single most vocal poster on this board about upgrading the RT spot this off-season. From Ray Willis, to Kevin Shaffer, to Mark Tauscher... I'm just not going to jump out the window if McIntosh is our starter again this season.

Im sorry it seems your changing wat you’re arguing in every post… So excuse me if im not following you... You’re arguing that McIntosh is serviceable one minute and the next you’re arguing that he is in fact bad yet its ok to stick with him because there was no viable replacement..?

Well McIntosh is terrible and there were many a chances to upgrade the position which have been listed in this thread. Furthermore McIntosh is not serviceable he’s $^%&!!! Get it in your head that he’s no good... Why are you defending a terrible player? Two teams have already cut him for his ineptness at his natural position and now he’s playing RT... Obviously u can get away with serviceable players at some positions but he is NOT serviceable...

I don’t expect pro bowlers at every position but I appreciate management trying to do something to replace a player that as been the proverbial sieve these past two seasons.. Why do u act like it’s unreasonable to want better players? Especially when there were better players to be had? Also im not talking about upgrading from good to excellent im talking about upgrading from $@#% to serviceable at the least... Other teams don’t seem to put up with shit like McIntosh hence why he’s been cut two times...

But no let’s keep him because he’s not the very worst player in the league. And let’s continue to put our team in the hands of the Brodie Croyles and Boomer Grisbys of the NFL cause that’s wat all the good teams do… :rolleyes:

chiefzilla1501
06-20-2009, 08:58 AM
Im sorry it seems your changing wat you’re arguing in every post… So excuse me if im not following you... You’re arguing that McIntosh is serviceable one minute and the next you’re arguing that he is in fact bad yet its ok to stick with him because there was no viable replacement..?

Well McIntosh is terrible and there were many a chances to upgrade the position which have been listed in this thread. Furthermore McIntosh is not serviceable he’s $^%&!!! Get it in your head that he’s no good... Why are you defending a terrible player? Two teams have already cut him for his ineptness at his natural position and now he’s playing RT... Obviously u can get away with serviceable players at some positions but he is NOT serviceable...

I don’t expect pro bowlers at every position but I appreciate management trying to do something to replace a player that as been the proverbial sieve these past two seasons.. Why do u act like it’s unreasonable to want better players? Especially when there were better players to be had? Also im not talking about upgrading from good to excellent im talking about upgrading from shit to serviceable at the least... Other teams don’t seem to put up with shit like McIntosh hence why he’s been cut two times...

But no let’s keep him because he’s not the very worst player in the league. And let’s continue to put our team in the hands of the Brodie Croyles and Boomer Grisbys of the NFL cause that’s wat all the good teams do… :rolleyes:

I get where he's coming from. He's arguing against people like you whose first instinct is that if a player isn't great, he's terrible. McIntosh wasn't "cut" by Miami. They chose not to re-sign him because they didn't want to pay him the elite LT money that KC was willing to pay him. It doesn't mean he was a bad left tackle. It just means that KC overpaid him and Miami wasn't willing to do that.

Now, I don't agree with Micjones that McIntosh is going to do okay at RIGHT tackle. I don't think he's a liability, but I don't think he's suited for the position. But I do agree with his point that so many fans seem to think that if you're not a great starter, you have no business being on a roster. The truth is, most teams have a few average players starting and all teams have "serviceable" players floating around as backups. And I agree with him that McIntosh at least deserves the title of "serviceable" at RT (and I believe he is a few steps above serviceable at LT).

Chiefs=Good
06-20-2009, 09:24 AM
I get where he's coming from. He's arguing against people like you whose first instinct is that if a player isn't great, he's terrible. McIntosh wasn't "cut" by Miami. They chose not to re-sign him because they didn't want to pay him the elite LT money that KC was willing to pay him. It doesn't mean he was a bad left tackle. It just means that KC overpaid him and Miami wasn't willing to do that.

Now, I don't agree with Micjones that McIntosh is going to do okay at RIGHT tackle. I don't think he's a liability, but I don't think he's suited for the position. But I do agree with his point that so many fans seem to think that if you're not a great starter, you have no business being on a roster. The truth is, most teams have a few average players starting and all teams have "serviceable" players floating around as backups. And I agree with him that McIntosh at least deserves the title of "serviceable" at RT (and I believe he is a few steps above serviceable at LT).


That’s fine there good points.. But i don’t think players are bad because their not great.. I feel that page and pollard for instance are serviceable and we don’t need to replace them even though their obviously not great.. However i do believe that McIntosh is bad.. not bad because he’s not Jeff Otah, bad because he’s B A D, BAD and this is why i find it irritating and hard to believe that we did not replace him.. Now everybody has their own views... fine im not expecting everybody to see players as i do.. But no one will ever be able to convince me that McIntosh was the best available player for us at the RT position...

Smed1065
06-20-2009, 09:47 AM
I get where he's coming from. He's arguing against people like you whose first instinct is that if a player isn't great, he's terrible. McIntosh wasn't "cut" by Miami. They chose not to re-sign him because they didn't want to pay him the elite LT money that KC was willing to pay him. It doesn't mean he was a bad left tackle. It just means that KC overpaid him and Miami wasn't willing to do that.

Now, I don't agree with Micjones that McIntosh is going to do okay at RIGHT tackle. I don't think he's a liability, but I don't think he's suited for the position. But I do agree with his point that so many fans seem to think that if you're not a great starter, you have no business being on a roster. The truth is, most teams have a few average players starting and all teams have "serviceable" players floating around as backups. And I agree with him that McIntosh at least deserves the title of "serviceable" at RT (and I believe he is a few steps above serviceable at LT).

But if they do not improve he is golden? Or I am an azz?

I saw this for 3 years and don't buy it, Still

First time shame on me but 2nd and 3rd fuk me!

See homer vision. Same but better, OK so its better? Why?

Does that mean its good? Or hopes?

milkman
06-20-2009, 09:48 AM
I get where he's coming from. He's arguing against people like you whose first instinct is that if a player isn't great, he's terrible. McIntosh wasn't "cut" by Miami. They chose not to re-sign him because they didn't want to pay him the elite LT money that KC was willing to pay him. It doesn't mean he was a bad left tackle. It just means that KC overpaid him and Miami wasn't willing to do that.

Now, I don't agree with Micjones that McIntosh is going to do okay at RIGHT tackle. I don't think he's a liability, but I don't think he's suited for the position. But I do agree with his point that so many fans seem to think that if you're not a great starter, you have no business being on a roster. The truth is, most teams have a few average players starting and all teams have "serviceable" players floating around as backups. And I agree with him that McIntosh at least deserves the title of "serviceable" at RT (and I believe he is a few steps above serviceable at LT).

While I agree that McIntosh is not terrible at LT, I disagree that he is anything more than sevicable, a certainly not top 15 as you suggested in another post.

milkman
06-20-2009, 09:50 AM
But if they do not improve he is golden? Or I am an azz?

I saw this for 3 years and don't buy it, Still

First time shame on me but 2nd and 3rd fuk me!

See homer vision. Same but better, OK so its better? Why?

Does that mean its good? Or hopes?

Damn.

I still haven't purchased a Smed decoder ring.

Skip Towne
06-20-2009, 09:54 AM
Damn.

I still haven't purchased a Smed decoder ring.

I hired a Navajo Indian

FAX
06-20-2009, 10:51 AM
Damn.

I still haven't purchased a Smed decoder ring.

Simple ...

But if they do not improve he is golden? Or I am an azz?

Mr. Smed1065 is posing an interrogatory regarding McIntosh implying that, should the offensive line not improve, McIntosh will be considered to be one of the primary reasons by the coaching staff.

I saw this for 3 years and don't buy it, Still

Here, Mr. Smed1065 is referring to his grandfather's vocation of manufacturing moonshine. Having first-hand knowledge of the ingredients, Mr. Smed1065 states that he chooses not to partake of his grandfather's product.

First time shame on me but 2nd and 3rd fuk me!

Mr. Smed1065 recounts his various sexual exploits with emphasis on those techniques and practices frowned on by the Catholic Church.

See homer vision. Same but better, OK so its better? Why?

This is a reference to the last film seen by Mr. Smed1065 in an IMAX theater.

Does that mean its good? Or hopes?

In a display of idyllic empathy and compassion, Mr. Smed1065 offers his sincere best wishes to the poster above.

FAX

DaneMcCloud
06-20-2009, 11:00 AM
Not just the same system as the Cardinals, but the same EXACT SAME system the Patriots ran as well.

The offensive system is called Perkins-Ernhart and both Gailey and Haley both got taught the system first hand from the developer, his name slips my mind,

Ron Erhardt, NFL assistant coaching legend.

Head coaching legend? Not so much.

The other guy you refer to is Ray Perkins, former head coach of the Giants and at Alabama.

chiefzilla1501
06-20-2009, 11:06 AM
But if they do not improve he is golden? Or I am an azz?

I saw this for 3 years and don't buy it, Still

First time shame on me but 2nd and 3rd fuk me!

See homer vision. Same but better, OK so its better? Why?

Does that mean its good? Or hopes?

No, the point is that when you're fixing a sinking ship, you're not going to fix it all at once.

The Chiefs chose to make fixing the defensive line a priority and the defense in general a priority. I hate that the o-line didn't change much, but given that we're running a relatively similar offense, I can understand prioritizing the defense over the offense, given that we're overhauling the 4-3 and want to get cracking on building a foundation for the new D asap. Therefore, I have no problem stacking the defensive line, even if it meant dealing with one more year of an average-to-shitty offensive line.

Micjones
06-20-2009, 01:22 PM
Im sorry it seems your changing wat you’re arguing in every post… So excuse me if im not following you... You’re arguing that McIntosh is serviceable one minute and the next you’re arguing that he is in fact bad yet its ok to stick with him because there was no viable replacement..?

Let's go with Option C...
You're having trouble keeping up.

I've said all along that McIntosh is a serviceable Right Tackle.
I'm going to stand by that.

I did want to upgrade the position, but Chiefs brass saw fit to do otherwise.
So at this point, I'm comfortable with where we are at that position.
I don't think he'll be a liability.

Well McIntosh is terrible and there were many a chances to upgrade the position which have been listed in this thread. Furthermore McIntosh is not serviceable he’s $^%&!!! Get it in your head that he’s no good... Why are you defending a terrible player? Two teams have already cut him for his ineptness at his natural position and now he’s playing RT... Obviously u can get away with serviceable players at some positions but he is NOT serviceable...

You're right. He's somehow managed to be a multi-year starter since he was drafted, has played in the NFL past its normal life expectancy, but he's terrible. Got it. We can agree to disagree.

I don’t expect pro bowlers at every position but I appreciate management trying to do something to replace a player that as been the proverbial sieve these past two seasons..

A sieve? 14.5 sacks in two seasons? Jason Peters, yeah the one who went to the Pro Bowl this year, gave up 11.5 just last season. Guess he's a sieve too? And so are Guards Alan Faneca and Steve Hutchinson, two more Pro Bowlers, who surrendered 7 sacks last season.
:rolleyes:

Why do u act like it’s unreasonable to want better players? Especially when there were better players to be had? Also im not talking about upgrading from good to excellent im talking about upgrading from $@#% to serviceable at the least... Other teams don’t seem to put up with shit like McIntosh hence why he’s been cut two times...

The circumstances behind why he was cut be damned.
Okay.

Miami wasn't in God awful cap shape...

But no let’s keep him because he’s not the very worst player in the league. And let’s continue to put our team in the hands of the Brodie Croyles and Boomer Grisbys of the NFL cause that’s wat all the good teams do… :rolleyes:

Yeah... They're both multi-year starters in the NFL aren't they?
*Sigh*

Chiefs=Good
06-21-2009, 06:11 AM
Let's go with Option C...
You're having trouble keeping up.

I've said all along that McIntosh is a serviceable Right Tackle.
I'm going to stand by that.

I did want to upgrade the position, but Chiefs brass saw fit to do otherwise.
So at this point, I'm comfortable with where we are at that position.
I don't think he'll be a liability.



You're right. He's somehow managed to be a multi-year starter since he was drafted, has played in the NFL past its normal life expectancy, but he's terrible. Got it. We can agree to disagree.



A sieve? 14.5 sacks in two seasons? Jason Peters, yeah the one who went to the Pro Bowl this year, gave up 11.5 just last season. Guess he's a sieve too? And so are Guards Alan Faneca and Steve Hutchinson, two more Pro Bowlers, who surrendered 7 sacks last season.
:rolleyes:



The circumstances behind why he was cut be damned.
Okay.

Miami wasn't in God awful cap shape...



Yeah... They're both multi-year starters in the NFL aren't they?
*Sigh*

:shake:

McIntosh may have been serviceable at LT but he’s now playing RT whether or not he was good in the past (which i believe he wasn’t) isn’t relevant to how he plays at RT.. You are welcome to your views but I like you am sticking to mine (that McIntosh s a dud) I only have to look at his last two years of play to prove that.

Why are you calling me an idiot because I want better players if you wanted an upgrade to??? :spock:

Comparing McIntosh to those players is simply wrong… But while many of those players may have given up sacks im sure they did not have a new offense invented partly due to their ineptness.

Umm yes 14.5 sacks in two seasons is a sieve especially as he was put in a system which practically carried him through last year.. If it weren’t for the pistol I can almost guarantee you that he would be sitting on 20+ sacks…

Oh and please, teams struggle with the cap on a yearly basis but still manage to sign most of their good players especially their LT… Honestly I cannot remember the last time a team let a good LT walk… Miami let McIntosh go because he wasn’t good enough end of story... You can argue against that all you want but you’ll never convince me otherwise… Any who I hope while your watching McIntosh this year playing out of position giving up sacks it gives you comfort knowing that our front office (despite having chances) did not replace him...

Saccopoo
06-21-2009, 03:10 PM
McIntosh is serviceable. Below mediocre in terms of what's available throughout the NFL, but serviceable nonetheless. And this year, he will have major help in blocking via the tight end, something we haven't had since Jason Dunn was released - and this was a major reason why our offense has gotten Croyle and Huard killed the past two seasons and why we had to go to a pistol formation. Tony never blocked anyone. And we wouldn't throw to any other wide receiver other than Bowe. And Cox didn't play enough and was a rookie. Teams knew that neither Tony nor LJ were going to block anyone, so they blitzed one extra dude a lot, particularly on the stage right side.

McIntosh will have substantial help at RT this year, and because of that, he should have a decent year. No, he is not a prototypical RT, and I'm extremely disappointed that we didn't end up with one (and a RG/C, e.g., Luigs, Urbik, Robinson, etc.) in the draft when we had the opportunity to do so. However, having the tight end stay at home and block this next season should help McIntosh substantially.

It's not as bad a situation as everyone (other than Mic) is making it out to be.