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View Full Version : Chiefs Michael Ash raises a pretty good point about Brian Waters


Count Zarth
06-21-2009, 01:04 PM
+ other neato keeno stuff.

http://kan.scout.com/2/873885.html

<table><tbody><tr><td valign="top">Last week, we peered into the Warpaint Illustrated crystal ball for a glimpse of what the future holds for some of KC’s defenders. This time we examine the offense.
</td></tr> <tr> <td colspan="3">
Which returning veterans will make an impact? Who will trend in the other direction? What about the new additions to the offense? Who will excite the masses or disappoint?


Veteran most likely to step up: Larry Johnson (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307530)

When you think about it, Johnson’s situation with the Chiefs is similar to the circumstances Randy Moss (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4309679) and Corey Dillon found themselves in when they went to New England. Except instead of Scott Pioli (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=3933332) bringing him to Kansas City in a trade, Johnson was already present when the new G.M. came to town.

When the Patriots acquired Moss and Dillon, both players – frequently criticized for their attitudes – understood it was time for them to shape up or ship out. In each case, the lure of winning a championship helped keep them in line.

For Johnson, the motives might be different, but the end result could be the same. After initially trying to orchestrate his way off the team, Johnson did a 180 several months ago and has been on his best behavior since. He might have bought into the changes the new regime has made, or – more likely – he’s realized no other team is going to pay him what he’s due to make on his current contract.

Either way, if the last few months are any indication, it appears Johnson plans to be a model teammate in 2009.

In Dillon’s first year with New England, he turned in the best season of his career, rushing for over 1,600 yards. After having the 27th ranked rushing attack in 2003, the Patriots rode Dillon to the league’s 7th best ground game in 2004.

In Moss’ first season as a Patriot, he posted the second-best yardage total of his career and gelled so well with Tom Brady (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4309652) he set an NFL single-season record with 23 touchdown receptions.

Going into a situation where they had no choice but to stay quiet, work hard, and focus on football, both malcontents re-established themselves as Pro Bowl caliber players and delivered top-flight performances. Perhaps the same can happen with Johnson.

A year ago, even as he complained that he was being phased out of the Chiefs’ offense, Johnson had a solid season. His yards-per-carry average was 4.5, his highest mark since 2005. While playing in the home confines of Arrowhead Stadium, he actually averaged a massive 5.6 yards per carry.

Johnson also rebounded from his foot injury by – for the first time in his career – breaking off three runs of more than 45 yards in the same season. That stat includes the longest run of his career, a 65-yard burst against Denver last September.

If a more disciplined and focused Johnson can build on the foundation he set a year ago, he could end up playing a much bigger role in the offense than people seem to expect.


Veteran most likely to slow down: Brian Waters (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307563)

Todd Haley made an interesting statement in his final OTA press conference. He said the Chiefs will have to pass a conditioning test before they’re cleared to participate in training camp.

As we know, Haley has been stressing the importance of conditioning since offseason practices began, bringing about a total team weight loss of over 300 pounds. It’s safe to say that many of the players on the Chiefs’ roster are in better shape now than they were at this point of the year during previous seasons.

All that leads to an interesting situation with Waters, who has been absent from every team workout except the brief three-day mandatory minicamp. In his own words, the Pro Bowl guard has been doing what he needs to “maintain” his conditioning, but he admits he can’t work out by himself at the same intense level the team has adopted.

The problem with that is twofold. First, Waters’ efforts to “maintain” are surely based on what the acceptable levels were under the previous regime. Haley, quite obviously, has a whole new set of standards. What Waters considers “in shape” may be a far cry from what his new coach expects.

Second, while Waters acknowledged a need to step up his workouts before training camp, how motivated is someone in his situation actually going to be? He’s already admitted the difficulty of working out at such intense levels on his own. Is someone at-odds with the front office really going to devote himself full-time to that kind of regimen?

The bottom line is this: what’s going to happen when it’s Waters’ turn to take the pre-camp conditioning test?

If he’s able to pass, it would be a major statement about his commitment. But if he can’t, is he going to be on the sideline, working on conditioning drills while the rest of the team lines up and practices?

Because of his decision to skip the offseason workouts, Waters is already facing a situation where he’s a step behind the rest of his teammates. As they continue to work and improve their conditioning, it will be nearly impossible for him to catch up. The farther that division spreads, the more of an issue it could become.

With the exception of that three-day minicamp, the offensive line has already been without Waters for the entire offseason. Having that absence spill over into training camp is not in anyone’s best interest.

Addition most likely to impress: Bobby Engram (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307444)

As a top-notch route runner with great hands, Engram spent the last several years playing a Tony Gonzalez (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307450)-like role for Matt Hasselbeck (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4325362) in Seattle. When Hasselbeck needed a first down, he generally looked Engram’s way. When his number was called, Engram would make difficult catches in traffic, take big hits, then hop up and walk right back into the huddle.

Gonzalez is now in Atlanta, which makes it imperative for someone on the Chiefs’ roster to step up and become the new safety blanket. This will be particularly important on third down, as a year ago Gonzalez made 24 chain-moving catches on third down plays – the third highest total of anyone in the league.

Engram has been making those kinds of catches his entire career. He’ll line up as KC’s slot receiver this year, and that in itself is significant. After playing with Wes Welker (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4309694) a year ago in New England, Matt Cassel (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4210794) is used to having a reliable bail-out option in the slot. It shouldn’t be surprising if Engram ends up as one of Cassel’s favorite targets.

Certainly, though, no one expects Engram’s production to come close to Welker’s, or even close to the numbers Engram himself put up two years ago in Seattle (94 catches, 1,147 yards, six touchdowns). But since he doesn’t draw the sort of attention from a defense that players like Gonzalez and Welker do, he should have the opportunity to make a few big plays now and then.

If Engram can keep himself off the trainer’s table – a valid concern for any 36-year old – he has the chance to make Gonzalez’s departure less painful. That will endear him to Chiefs fans in no time.


Addition most likely to disappoint: Matt Cassel

Cassel wins this dubious honor mostly by default. Clearly, expectations are much higher for him than they are for Mike Goff (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307449), who – apart from Engram – is the only other new addition. With high expectations comes a greater chance of letting people down.

But if we were singling out the offensive player in general that’s most likely to disappoint, Cassel would still get the nod.

It’s just the unfortunate reality of the situation he faces. Cassel joins an offense that, with the departure of Gonzalez, has taken a step back. He’ll have a modest collection of offensive weapons and an offensive line that has struggled in recent years. It’s going to take a host of things falling into place for him to have a realistic chance at success.

Targets other than Dwayne Bowe (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307406) have to emerge in the passing game. The offensive line, particularly Damion McIntosh (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307539) and Rudy Niswanger (http://kan.scout.com/a.z?s=115&p=8&c=1&nid=4307541), must improve. The playcalling has to keep defenses guessing, particularly in the second half when – week after week – last year’s offense would slow to a crawl. If these things don’t happen, it will be rough for Cassel.

It may not be fair for Cassel to bear the blame for those problems, since they’ve been in place long before he stepped foot in Kansas City. But that’s the nature of the position he plays. No doubt, many will expect him to strap the team on his back and carry them to success despite those issues, and they’ll hold it against him if he doesn’t.

Next Week: the 2009 season</td></tr></tbody></table>

StcChief
06-21-2009, 01:09 PM
nice look by Ash.

King_Chief_Fan
06-21-2009, 03:11 PM
player most likely to replace starting QB week 4: Tyler Thigpen

JimNasium
06-21-2009, 03:14 PM
I've never been that impressed with his take on anything.

Buehler445
06-21-2009, 03:19 PM
Not a bad article, but when did Waters say he couldn't train with the same intensity as the rest of the guys? I don't remember that.

pr_capone
06-21-2009, 03:26 PM
I've never been that impressed with his take on anything.

I'm not impressed with anything that comes out of Warpaint.

Its where journalistic careers go to die before they even get started.

Chocolate Hog
06-21-2009, 03:31 PM
player most likely to replace starting QB week 4: Tyler Thigpen

You must have not seen any Chiefs games.

Coogs
06-21-2009, 03:33 PM
player most likely to replace starting QB week 4: Tyler Thigpen

That would be the absolute worst thing that could happen to this franchise right now. Comming off of 6-26, a switch at QB after 3 weeks would be the nail in the coffin for the next 3 to 4 years as well. That would mean QB would have to be the No. 1 priority in the draft next year which sets the overall direction and improvement back big time.

Hope this does not happen... weather you like Cassel or not.

Coogs
06-21-2009, 03:52 PM
And Brian Waters comming into camp and immediately taking over the starting position would be a huge set back for the message Haley is trying to get across to the team as well.

Teams do not have to have All-Pro's across the line to have a good offensive team. Guys that will work hard and work together, combined with a stud LT... which we have... can come together and form a good enough line to have a productive offensive season.

mlyonsd
06-21-2009, 04:28 PM
WTF wouldn't any player, other than a disgrunted one, not have the opportunity to thrive under a new regime that includes GM and HC?

Herm was a disaster and we knew that coming in.

I'm more excited for the new season than I have been since DV was here.

bdeg
06-21-2009, 05:01 PM
the waters bit is pure speculation, but i do agree we'll see lj have a good year.

For those that made it through the article, this seem weird to anyone else?:
"Clearly, expectations are much higher for him than they are for Mike Goff, who – apart from Engram – is the only other new addition."
edit: i see the article is focusing solely on the offense, ah

CrazyPhuD
06-21-2009, 05:23 PM
I'm just wondering where the alien abduction and the vampire child were in that article.

chiefzilla1501
06-21-2009, 05:36 PM
the waters bit is pure speculation, but i do agree we'll see lj have a good year.

For those that made it through the article, this seem weird to anyone else?:
"Clearly, expectations are much higher for him than they are for Mike Goff, who – apart from Engram – is the only other new addition."
edit: i see the article is focusing solely on the offense, ah

I'm not convinced on LJ at all. And it won't be his fault.

Poor offensive line plus Cassel's ability to play in the shotgun plus Haley's love for shotgun offenses means that I think the Chiefs will line up in a lot of shotgun sets. Shotgun sets are not LJ's bread and butter. I don't think LJ will see any improvement until we can get a consistent under-center offense. And that won't happen until we upgrade our o-line.

Count Zarth
06-21-2009, 05:42 PM
I'm not convinced on LJ at all. And it won't be his fault.

Poor offensive line plus Cassel's ability to play in the shotgun plus Haley's love for shotgun offenses means that I think the Chiefs will line up in a lot of shotgun sets. Shotgun sets are not LJ's bread and butter. I don't think LJ will see any improvement until we can get a consistent under-center offense. And that won't happen until we upgrade our o-line.

The Patriots ran the ball quite a bit last year out of under-center sets.

Raised On Riots
06-21-2009, 05:48 PM
That was some damn fine journalism.

bdeg
06-21-2009, 06:15 PM
I'm not convinced on LJ at all. And it won't be his fault.

Poor offensive line plus Cassel's ability to play in the shotgun plus Haley's love for shotgun offenses means that I think the Chiefs will line up in a lot of shotgun sets. Shotgun sets are not LJ's bread and butter. I don't think LJ will see any improvement until we can get a consistent under-center offense. And that won't happen until we upgrade our o-line.

the o-line was upgraded(goff), though the point stands. I wasn't talking yards-wise, I meant that he will play well(considering the positions he's placed in). I think he'll be fine in a spread so long as the o-line is doing their job. If Albert plays to his potential, Waters has another solid year, Goff delivers what they expect of him, and Mcintosh takes to the coaching, we should be looking at a solid overall unit. And is it so much to hope for some improvement from Rudy? If he's been serviceable his first two years in the league maybe we'll see him develop into a good player in the next couple years.

But back to the spread... LJ is weak when he gets stacked up at the line or when running toward the sideline. He's great with a little room to accelerate. perhaps the spread will help alleviate the massive clusterf*** we, and larry, have become so accustomed to.

theoretically, if we can use the spread to remove the linebackers, have our o-line handle their dl and open some lanes, it would suit him great. he'd have a full head of steam and one or zero linebackers(hopefully one gets blocked) and a couple safeties to beat. that's when he's at his best. with albert, waters, and goff, i think we'll see some running lanes. and i think cottam will be a better blocker than tony, which certainly couldn't hurt.

milkman
06-21-2009, 06:17 PM
theoretically, if we can use the spread to remove the linebackers, have our o-line handle their dl and open some lanes, it would suit him great. he'd have a full head of steam and one or zero linebackers(hopefully one gets blocked) and a couple safeties to beat. that's when he's at his best. with albert, waters, and goff, i think we'll see some running lanes.

That used to be when he was at his best, before he pussified and stopped being the physical downhill runner that he used to be.

bdeg
06-21-2009, 06:19 PM
eh, i think he still has it in him. he's pissed again. not that it's going to do us any good when we'll be competitive.

chiefs1111
06-21-2009, 06:20 PM
player most likely to replace starting QB week 4: Tyler Thigpen

ROFL

milkman
06-21-2009, 06:21 PM
eh, i think he still has it in him. he's pissed again. not that it's going to do us any good when we'll be competitive.

I'll believe it when I see it.

bdeg
06-21-2009, 06:24 PM
I'll believe it when I see it.

eh, i think he still has it in him. he's pissed again.

agreed
i do think he was a bit hampered by the playcalling last year, though

Raised On Riots
06-21-2009, 06:30 PM
agreed
i do think he was a bit hampered by the playcalling last year, though

No, he was hampered by the scheme, which will be the case again this year.

Why even run the ball if we're going to monkey around with this spread bullshit? It lends itself to two running plays:

1) Give ball to LJ, run ball up Centers ass, get stuffed at line.

2) Give the ball to Charles. Will he get stuffed on the east side or on the west side?! Ooh! The excitement!

So just line up 5 receivers all day, and get it the fuck over with, thank you.

Count Zarth
06-21-2009, 06:33 PM
Why even run the ball if we're going to monkey around with this spread bullshit? It lends itself to two running plays:


You need to watch some Patriots games.

Raised On Riots
06-21-2009, 06:35 PM
You need to watch some Patriots games.

Because we're fielding the NE Patriots this year? Meh.

Piss on your head!:D

Count Zarth
06-21-2009, 06:39 PM
Because we're fielding the NE Patriots this year? Meh.


You're just looking for something to bitch about.

We will run a pro-style offense this year. LJ will flourish.

Raised On Riots
06-21-2009, 06:48 PM
You're just looking for something to bitch about.

We will run a pro-style offense this year. LJ will flourish.

ROFL Good one! Keep 'em coming.

Count Zarth
06-21-2009, 06:51 PM
ROFL Good one! Keep 'em coming.

You're being a stupid bastard. Our run pass ratio will be closer to 50/50 than 60/40. LJ will get at least 250 carries.

Raised On Riots
06-21-2009, 07:05 PM
You're being a stupid bastard. Our run pass ratio will be closer to 50/50 than 60/40. LJ will get at least 250 carries.

Edge Pt. 2.

Be ready.

Count Zarth
06-21-2009, 07:06 PM
Edge Pt. 2.

Be ready.

We are not going to be the Cardinals. Look at their players and look at ours. Haley is not stupid. He's already made comments about the nature of the offense.

You're just bitching so you can bitch.

Skip Towne
06-21-2009, 07:14 PM
We are not going to be the Cardinals. Look at their players and look at ours. Haley is not stupid. He's already made comments about the nature of the offense.

You're just bitching so you can bitch.

I thought he was your buddy

Count Zarth
06-21-2009, 07:15 PM
I thought he was your buddy

If you believe some people I'm arguing with myself.

Raised On Riots
06-21-2009, 07:18 PM
We are not going to be the Cardinals. Look at their players and look at ours. Haley is not stupid. He's already made comments about the nature of the offense.

You're just bitching so you can bitch.

Until proven otherwise, I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in this Offense.

I thought he was your buddy

Oh look! Another sports-related post from Skip! :rolleyes:

CoMoChief
06-21-2009, 07:21 PM
You must have not seen any Chiefs games.

yeah Cassell has showed a lot

Count Zarth
06-21-2009, 07:25 PM
Until proven otherwise, I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in this Offense.


You should just say you don't like Haley and Pioli because they didn't draft Sanchez and get on with it.

Skip Towne
06-21-2009, 07:25 PM
Until proven otherwise, I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in this Offense.



Oh look! Another sports-related post from Skip! :rolleyes:

It's the off season dipshit. Check the game threads and you'll see me plenty. Or just keep making a fool of yourself.

Von Dumbass
06-21-2009, 07:26 PM
You need to watch some Patriots games.
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-02-15/maximizing-matt-shotgun-triggered-cassels-second-half-surge
Early in the season the Patriots ran a conventional NFL offense, with Cassel primarily aligned under center. They used the shotgun only as an occasional changeup or, as many teams do, in long-yardage situations.

It became evident Cassel was not particularly comfortable dropping back from center. He often seemed rushed and hurried, with a tendency to quickly lose his reading definition. That's why he ran so frequently. He was not seeing the field with clarity, and his instincts compelled him to leave the pocket whether it was necessary or not.

I remember breaking down Cassel's third start, the Patriots' victory over the 49ers in early October. He was very mechanical and robotic in his progressions and reads. If he could determine his throw based on the pre-snap read, he made it. If he couldn't, and he had to process information as he dropped, he struggled. As a result, he did not show a lot of patience in the pocket, often moving directly into the pass rush. That's the main reason Cassel was sacked so often in the first half of the season.

In addition, Cassel wasn't demonstrating the willingness to pull the trigger on tighter throws at the intermediate and deeper levels. Those are the kinds of plays that work off five- and seven-step drops with the quarterback under center.

What the Patriots learned as the season progressed was that Cassel was far more comfortable and relaxed playing in the shotgun. Their overtime loss to the Jets in mid-November solidified that belief. The Patriots fell behind 24-6 in the second quarter, and from that point on, Cassel was exclusively in the shotgun.

That defeat was the first of six consecutive games in which 88 percent of Cassel's pass attempts came out of the shotgun. The shotgun spread, often with three wide receivers, stretched the field horizontally. And the ability of the Patriots' outstanding coaching staff to dictate with formations, shifts and motions allowed Cassel to get rid of the ball decisively. It was predominantly a short passing game, with the throw defined quickly and the ball coming out fast.

Count Zarth
06-21-2009, 07:27 PM
That really doesn't invalidate anything I said.

The Patriots ran the ball quite a bit from under center.

Raised On Riots
06-21-2009, 07:31 PM
You should just say you don't like Haley and Pioli because they didn't draft Sanchez and get on with it.

I've said repeatedly that I like Haley. Pioli has been pretty "meh" in his actions though, and yes, not drafting Sanchez was a fuck up of epic proportions that you and many others will soon learn the truth of.
There; ya' happy now?

It's the off season dipshit. Check the game threads and you'll see me plenty.

It makes no difference ass-clowne; your post was a shit-stirrer and nothing more. And I'd really rather not "see you plenty" if at all possible, unless it pleases me to do so.

Raised On Riots
06-21-2009, 07:31 PM
This thread bores me. Enough.

milkman
06-21-2009, 07:33 PM
That really doesn't invalidate anything I said.

The Patriots ran the ball quite a bit from under center.

For either Cassel and LJ to really be successful, and to maximize the offenses efficiency, Cassel has to learn to be an effective QB in a Pro Set.

If he can not, then it will be far easier for defenses to neutralize the offense.

Skip Towne
06-21-2009, 07:34 PM
I've said repeatedly that I like Haley. Pioli has been pretty "meh" in his actions though, and yes, not drafting Sanchez was a fuck up of epic proportions that you and many others will soon learn the truth of.
There; ya' happy now?



It makes no difference ass-clowne; your post was a shit-stirrer and nothing more. And I'd really rather not "see you plenty" if at all possible, unless it pleases me to do so.

Go fuck yourself punk

Hoover
06-21-2009, 07:58 PM
The problem with his assessment on LJ is that it has nothing to do with LJ at all. So while he has shown up and not opened his mouth, what other signs have there been that he's about to have an awesome year? None.

The dude is rocking the boat because he needs to get paid one more time before he hangs it up PERIOD. I'm not sure he has it in him to put a couple good seasons togther to accomplish that goal.

Skip Towne
06-21-2009, 08:01 PM
The problem with his assessment on LJ is that it has nothing to do with LJ at all. So while he has shown up and not opened his mouth, what other signs have there been that he's about to have an awesome year? None.

The dude is rocking the boat because he needs to get paid one more time before he hangs it up PERIOD. I'm not sure he has it in him to put a couple good seasons togther to accomplish that goal.

A rare Hoover sighting. What's up, dude?

Hoover
06-21-2009, 08:17 PM
I have a crazy summer. Just got back from a wedding in Canada then when to the lake with my family for fathers day. I'm around for the next couple of weeks before a rafting trip on the Colorado river with my brothers and Dad. Add to that I'm in the development process for a new communications company I'm heading up. So my time on-line is limited, but as the season nears I'll be around more.

I'm planning on coming down for a game this year

chiefzilla1501
06-21-2009, 08:45 PM
the o-line was upgraded(goff), though the point stands. I wasn't talking yards-wise, I meant that he will play well(considering the positions he's placed in). I think he'll be fine in a spread so long as the o-line is doing their job. If Albert plays to his potential, Waters has another solid year, Goff delivers what they expect of him, and Mcintosh takes to the coaching, we should be looking at a solid overall unit. And is it so much to hope for some improvement from Rudy? If he's been serviceable his first two years in the league maybe we'll see him develop into a good player in the next couple years.

But back to the spread... LJ is weak when he gets stacked up at the line or when running toward the sideline. He's great with a little room to accelerate. perhaps the spread will help alleviate the massive clusterf*** we, and larry, have become so accustomed to.

theoretically, if we can use the spread to remove the linebackers, have our o-line handle their dl and open some lanes, it would suit him great. he'd have a full head of steam and one or zero linebackers(hopefully one gets blocked) and a couple safeties to beat. that's when he's at his best. with albert, waters, and goff, i think we'll see some running lanes. and i think cottam will be a better blocker than tony, which certainly couldn't hurt.

Hmm. Not sure I agree. Spreads have always had difficulty running the ball, but if I were to pick a RB, it would be a fast RB with explosion. The reason LJ wasn't successful last year and the reason they had to resort to the pistol is that LJ is the type of back who needs a running start before the handoff. He is not effective when he stays stationary, receives a handoff, then has to turn on the afterburners.

If your RB can't explode out of a stationary position, then you're asking too much of your blockers. They have to hold their blocks longer. And the RB isn't at top speed by the time he hits the second level--hard to run downhill when you don't have a full head of steam.

LJ can't function out of a shotgun unless he plays in the pistol. That's why I don't think LJ will see any success unless they learn to play out of a pro set. And with this o-line, I don't see that happening.

Buehler445
06-21-2009, 10:13 PM
You're being a stupid bastard. Our run pass ratio will be closer to 50/50 than 60/40. LJ will get at least 250 carries.

You should just say you don't like Haley and Pioli because they didn't draft Sanchez and get on with it.

Nah, He's got a bet with Doomy3 about who will have more yards, Cassel or Sanchez.

He was boarding the cassel bandwagon. Said a lot of good things about him. Then the bet came, he chose Sanchez, so now he feels the need to trash on Cassel.

DeezNutz
06-21-2009, 10:17 PM
You're being a stupid bastard. Our run pass ratio will be closer to 50/50 than 60/40. LJ will get at least 250 carries.

No it won't, simply because we're going to be behind, probably significantly, in most of our games.

Mecca
06-21-2009, 10:21 PM
I want to know why the Patriots are getting brought up as far as gameplans goes? Last time I checked we didn't hire a coach from the Pats...

DeezNutz
06-21-2009, 10:26 PM
I'm happy we got a yellar! FUCK YEAH.

Raised On Riots
06-21-2009, 10:28 PM
Nah, He's got a bet with Doomy3 about who will have more yards, Cassel or Sanchez.

He was boarding the cassel bandwagon. Said a lot of good things about him. Then the bet came, he chose Sanchez, so now he feels the need to trash on Cassel.

"Every time I try to get out, THEY PULL ME BACK IN"!!!


Ahem...

And then OTA'S HAPPENED, and Cassel did not paint a picture of a guy setting the world on fire much less leaving Thigpen "in his dust"!

And I initiated the bet, NOT the other way around.

Let's at least TRY to make an effort to keep the facts straight, please.


And I will win this motherfucker!

:D

DeezNutz
06-21-2009, 10:30 PM
I've taken shits that were more important than OTA's. And probably shed as much weight, collectively.